Unknown: Welcome to the wellbeing, rebellion, the
podcast that's changing workplace cultures for good.
We're your hosts in Ghazi Wella,
and obey telephoto.
Let's get this rebellion started. We talked a lot about
trust in the episode we did about how you foster
psychological safety in the workplace. And it came up
recently, when we attended the D TX conference in Manchester. And
I was on the panel. And it was a panel on is workforce is
workplace well being the key to a successful workforce in 2023.
And it was a great panel was a wonderful event. I did not know
the DGX. Manchester was the largest tech conference in in
the north, I think. And it was phenomenal. And I was joined on
stage by some incredible panelists, there were reps from
and these are senior bigwigs from Kellogg's from infinity
works and beauty Bay. And the topic was really relevant and
the audience. Normally when you do these panels, audiences don't
ask that many questions. But this time, the audience had a
lot to talk about workforce wellbeing and whether it's the
key to the success of the future of work. But one question that
was really challenging, in fact, there were two. And they were
from two different perspectives on the same topic. So we I
thought we should talk about it was this thing about trust? And
what happens when it breaks? Right? So the question was, for
one person, what happens when employees don't trust their
managers and leaders? And then someone else asked about, you
know, what happens when employees take advantage of the
organization's generosity in supporting them with their
mental well being efforts and use it as an excuse to be lazy
or work shy? So yeah, it was also about how do you go about
rebuilding trust? So this trust issue is one that people
understand now that they have to grapple with both individually
and corporately? And so we thought it was something that
was worth us talking about? Because at least answering
the question, because, yeah, when you're on a panel, and
people have questions to answer it, and then everybody, the
panel would have to add bits and bobs. But it'd be nice to
actually just almost like, respond fully. What we would
normally have said, if we didn't have time restraint, that makes
sense. So that was, so I think the first question that I wanted
to, to answer
is the personal one, about employees who have, who have
experienced a breach of trust, who've been hurt. So I can't
even break confidence because I don't know this person's name.
She had worked for a previous company, had had suffered,
having told her managers about her mental wellbeing concerns.
And their response was much less than favorable. I don't know
what the company was. We didn't know
anything about that. But clearly it worked in tech. But the words
he was asking, was that what do you do? What is how can you see
an employee? What could you have done differently? Because her
issue was I told them, what was going on with me? And they acted
like they didn't believe me, I would lie. And what did that
leave? Where did that leave her basically? So it can interesting
to ponder, what did the employee do when that happened to them?
Before the organization? What can you do when an employee
who's either left or actually doesn't feel the contract the
manager to your leaders to support them in their time of
need? Okay, you could have two perspective, one for the
employee himself, and two, for the organization. When you have
employees like the saying that they're not happy, or they're
not listening to openly by their leader and manager. What can you
do about that?
Okay, so for an employee, it's a very personal thing, first of
all, to have the courage to say, I'm really struggling this thing
is not easy. I know from firsthand experience, I wouldn't
tell anybody at work because of the fear that they would say,
well, that's just because you're crap, or that they wouldn't
believe me, or that it'd be held against me all the things that
we've talked about previous episodes that stop people from
coming forward. I didn't tell a single soul. I just didn't show
up for work when I got signed off. That's it. So the fact that
if you come across An employee who has had the confidence, or
is either that desperate courage, the courage Yeah, that
they have been able to tell you, as a manager, that they're going
through a difficulty, doesn't know what strength that took,
it's very, very difficult if you if you do that if you take that
deep personal risk, and then you're met with either apathy or
even worse, a lack of belief, if that happens to you, certain
things will happen. First of all, you will never risk
exposing yourself like that to that individual or possibly even
to anyone in that organization ever again. Because you have you
as the manager has just proven that they're not safe to do so.
And to, they then will likely not be able to get the help that
they need. So the problem will exacerbate My advice to you if
this is you going through this is, first of all well done, for
telling someone as the kill kidsave for speaking your truth.
Well done. And I am very sorry that you weren't met with the
kind of grace and compassion that you should have been, or
that you weren't given an effective avenue for support and
help. It is not your fault. likely it is not your fault,
right? So don't stop being brave. Just find someone who
just deserves that courage. And if that's not in your workplace,
find it outside,
you know, other workloads. I think that's a good point there.
Also, if it's not your actual manager, because I'd like to
think if I'm, if I was speaking to her on the side, and two came
up, it took me one on one on the side, I forgot what are say,
your manager did not believe you what the next How do you
escalate it, who's the next person that you could tell? It
could be another manager from another department, it could be
the money manager, it could be HR. So just a question of what
are the procedures and for organization, you should have a
procedures for this. If a manager is not doing what's
required, what to can employ you do neck with the next person
they can talk to, or who that person they can talk to, if
they're not getting what they require. So that's one. And the
second thing I would have been asking about access to her EAP
she's access to mentors, you know what they are, and what
offers to see, qualify for any of those things. I've been
coding, let's go and check them out. And if t an encoding her to
you them based on what you offer it, that do not be afraid to do
is to consider external support lockdown or coat of dental
therapy would depend on what's going on firm for them. So that
they can think about you and only you know the word, you are
the priority, you come first. So that way you have opportunity to
think about what you need, what you need for your career, what
lifestyle, you're looking for all of that stuff and makes it
about you in a way that you may not have that confidence with
your manager to discuss it. And clearly, if trust had been
broken in this way where they don't believe you or think
you're lying, I wouldn't be trying to encourage them to go
back and talk to that manager about their future planning.
That's not something I'd want to include. Because I don't want
them to feel even more unsafe than the data we say, if a
company no longer feels right for an individual, right? If
you've not worked out, this is not the right place for me, I
don't feel safe here, give or take whatever departments I'm
going to be, then I'm going to encourage this person who asked
me to figure out how she can safely exit from this
organization, people get worse when they're not being supported
at work, they feel less motivated. Dado is not helpful
to her or the organization really. So it's in her best
interest to figure out how you can safely exit from a company
to somewhere else where she can be more herself and get lost in
it. But what I will be encoding when that time comes for her to
leave to be honest, and kind about why is she leaving during
the exit interview. If they exit interviews, they should be if
your organization don't have one, you should definitely have
one for every employee who hides in there notice because that
will give her opportunity to let the organization know the real
reason why she left the support she had or didn't have any
recommendation district to make them no longer her business
anymore. But I wondered if she does that then say Oh, I got a
different job. Different pay. I'm gonna be honest about what
it was that contributed to it. Well, the key thing that I
always say to Hey Charlie did I And I always said, people who
have mental health issues or struggles, or whatever it is,
and physical health issues, they will eventually get well, right?
Eventually, they'll get well, they'll figure themselves out,
they'll get treatment, whatever. But they will never forget how
you treated them, how you supported them. And if you
didn't support them appropriately, or well, they
will actively look for a way to leave. Today already seen what
you like, if other people have watched them go through this,
what them struggle, what how their managers responded to
them, they also know that it's not a place I can trust, either.
And they will be seeking to leave. Because when people don't
feel safe in their space, when they attend, they spend a lot of
energy, trying to figure out how to get themselves safe with me
constantly working their back all of that stuff. So that's
what I wanted to, to wrap up that what I would have to say to
an individual person who is struggling, we get this all the
time. We're psychologist and coach. So therefore, I will have
individual people asking for support because their HR isn't
providing that for the organization. It's not providing
that they could do exactly the strategy are we getting them to
do? We wanted to share that with you all?
Great. So that answers the individuals question about what
do I do? Because they didn't help me the answer and summaries
continue to get help pursue that because you deserve. You deserve
to feel well continue to pursue all avenues available to you for
help go up if you must go around if you can go external, but get
the help. But then there's the point of view of the company,
the company, what does a company do or an organization or a
leader do if they feel that they're, they are providing that
kind of level of support, the psychological safety, all of the
things as it said, but their employees are taking the mick
and are using their generosity as an excuse not to work or to
shirk. Now, we get this question a lot less so nowadays, I must
admit, but in the first few years, people would say but if
you're doing this, if you're if you're always showing them that
you care, and you're showing the soft side, then they'll just
take the mick, which is a very old school approach is a very
paternalistic approach to how you view the employer employee
relationship. Yeah, but the truth is, as I said, always,
always focus your attention where you're going to get the
most reward. Why would you focus on the tiny fraction of people
who may take advantage of your mental health support, which
might be 1%? Even if it's 10%? Why would you take to focus on
how you can stop that from happening when you should be
focusing on the bigger prize, the vast majority of people who
have mental health concerns, under report, they don't access
help, they don't take time off work. Only a small number of
people, a tiny fraction of healthy employees will use the
mental health excuse to stop them from doing work. Right?
You're not trying to manage the worst performance, you're
focusing your efforts on how you can bring the best performance
out of your employees. So if someone brings up their mental
health issues and concerns, believe them, it is 99% more
likely that they're going to be telling the truth and a lie.
Don't assume that it's just an easy cop out. If you can assume
that they are telling the truth because you've created that
environment of psychological safety and trust. If you assume
that they're telling the truth, you have a good relationship,
then assume that if they tell you that they can't manage their
performance because of their mental health struggles, that
they're telling the truth, the two are not mutually exclusive,
right? Then recognize that this is going to have an impact not
just on them, but on the wider team. You're going to have to do
something to manage it. You can't just do it. They're there
as the show Have you have you thought about calling the EP,
you're gonna have to make sure this person gets help as quickly
and effectively as possible because whilst They are not at
their best, they are going to be underperforming. And that's what
we call them well being black hole, one person is affected.
Everyone sees what your response is to that, it's generally to
divide the workload amongst the remaining members of staff who
are fully operational, it will, it will reduce their
productivity. But if you also, another element of the well
being black hole is, if you view the way you're treating this
individual as something that's not private, between you and
them, it's visible to everybody. Everybody's going to see how you
respond to employ X, when they came to you with their problem,
and decide whether or not they can truly, truly trust you with
this. So make sure that you know that you're on show and what it
whatever you do from that point onward, will either grow or
erode the trust that you have between yourself and your
employees
will not get the unacknowledged. Exactly. To be fat. I'm going to
be very honest, when I hear this question, we hear it a lot, who
says what do you do when employees are taking advantage?
I know for a fact that your managers have not been trained,
I know that for a fact, I can almost set the clock on it. In
other words, there is no way a fully transformational train
manager would assume that if they did, because this person
already had history of mid case, you're looking at about one
content about one person or two people. When if you be concerned
about the majority of people who do their work and want to do
well. So they didn't want it to something comes up because they
don't know how to train them. They assume that if someone even
had mental health issue, that is an excuse to an opportunity to
execute poor performance. It's not really it's possible to
support somebody with mental health, at the same time
performance manage them, because performance management isn't a
punitive exercise, I think the idea we think it is. So this is
why it's always clear to me, when managers say that the tools
are going to take the player to because they think saying I'm
not I got mental health issue and giving you carte blanche to
not do your work or show up. That's not true at all. You can
learn how to do boat, you can learn how to be empathetic to
someone's mental health, make sure to get treatment, and make
sure that you have at the manager agreed that scope of
work that this person is going to be doing based on their work
going on with them based on whether or not they're getting
treatment or not getting treatment based on what they've
agreed with the team and how the team is going to help out. This
is very clear to me when someone said somebody taking the pill
just for taking the pill state that they haven't been trained
properly. So if you get I'd hate to get managers coming to you
saying that, Oh my god, I think the people are ordered mental
health issues causing issues. People are just not wanting to
work. You know, you have a training problem. Indicator. You
know what you think about that?
Me and my damn ADHD I can't remember the really great point
that you've you just made, which was you were saying that if
people come to you saying that, Oh, yeah, all this mental health
stuff is there they're taking the piss. One reason might be
because people do often think like, I guess I am talking about
the old school. They think well, you know, bloody out there was
no mental health before now everybody's off sick. Sandra's
obviously, that's the well being black hole. So even if they're
saying, you know, it was one person on the team now it's 10.
It's ridiculous. Oh my gosh, it might be because it's the well
being black hole, which is, like I said, the impact the knock on
impact of one person's illness or productive incapacity on
everybody else, which increases their own stress levels. Or it
might be because you're doing such a good job creating
psychological safety, that people who are hiding it before
are now able to speak up about the fact that they're
struggling, and they need support. And it might be short
term pain for a very, very much bigger long term gain. But yet
people don't take the piss with telling you that they're going
through mental ill health. And if you've created a truly open
culture based on trust, based on mutual respect, based on an
adult adult relationship, you'll know when they're taking the
piss simple, but then how can you tell OB if your employees
don't trust their leaders? So the people who are listening are
good audience are in fact, in HR or in senior management? How do
you know if you haven't got a good level of trust between your
managers and their staff?
Yeah, I'm gonna say first and it behavior so what are people
doing? What are you seeing? I mean, we'll talk about country
office now, right? So two, three days a week people are doing
that. All of a sudden, people are often uncomfortable coming
back into the office just started doing it. And finally
suddenly or not, that might be one, the gossip by the
watercooler what's happening when people say in when people
go off sick, what? What is the? What are they saying about them
after they've been sick, right? When to when they've been off
sick for free to help your organization to send flowers and
cart when someone's off for mental health care nothing, why
the person come back and look like we had leprosy. That's why
the left is the weirdest feeling. So those are the
example your toes you we don't trust, you go out of the office
and be ill for physical health, but not mental health is to what
one in that. One thing I would say, if you also have complaint
include complaint, so gone from like a case of that lady saying
that the manager didn't believe her, then she might have got
escalated it to HR to say, Listen, I've got this thing, and
my manager wouldn't help. If you're getting more that more
complaint of the same manager, maybe the same department that
gives you an indicator as well. And also your surveys. So if you
do post obeys, and frankly, to be fair, if your organization is
one that it already, people want to audit trust issue, you may
not get a clear picture if you send a survey, but at least the
back and do nothing. So send a survey, make those anonymous,
right? And ask very specific question about trust and whether
or not I talked to my manager to support me, I can escalate
things, if I have issues, I'm actively looking to leave the
organization, Mike, you can ask very specific questions that
anonymous could have people can tell you what you need to know.
So that's kind of ideal in terms of behavioral or something that
you're gonna have to see or hear. But I for what one is
feeling inside, you can't possibly or less to ask them.
So to round up, assume your employees are lying to you, when
they say they need help. Assume you do need to continue to build
on the psychological safety that exists within your teams and
your organization. Because you genuinely always do assume that
your managers need to continually learn how to be
better people, managers in terms of creating and cultivating
trust between their employees and, and assume that they don't
just know this stuff by osmosis, but they need your support
through training and education. If that trust is broken, it
takes a long time to restore it, it's gonna take more walking the
walk and talking the talk, right?
Yeah, I think once the truck is broken in organization, it would
have a knock on effect from things on lower engagement, high
turnover, reduced innovation, it just so you have to be prepared
to allow time for that to happen. Okay. And for one of the
questions that actually we didn't talk about it, one with
what happened when someone has come from a different
organization. So they the last organization wasn't quite up to
par, they didn't trust them to come into your organization
having some level of lack of trust, because you're not sure
like based on past experiences, which is why is it important
when new people join your team, you need to be able to share
with them about what you're doing, how you're helping to
build trust, how they can come to who they can go to talk to
about thing, just to help them to let them have that baggage
that you might have come with from another organization to be
able to let them know, let that get that light, load lighter. So
that way, they can start to form relationship with a new team,
new manager, and don't bring old baggage into a new organization.
But that's the reason why we think it's important that worker
safety because that account for new people joining your
organizations or teams.
To round off, I'm gonna end this episode with a quote, because
everything we've talked about reminded me of my favorite
American author Maya Angelou. And that famous quote that she
had, I've learned that people will forget what you said,
people will forget what you did. But people will never forget how
you made them feel. loved that. Yeah, that's what it's about.
All right. Thank you. We'll see you next time next time. Thanks
for listening to this episode of The wellbeing rebellion.
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