1 00:00:05,549 --> 00:00:07,499 Unknown: Welcome to the wellbeing, rebellion, the 2 00:00:07,499 --> 00:00:10,859 podcast that's changing workplace cultures for good. 3 00:00:11,429 --> 00:00:13,079 We're your hosts in Ghazi Wella, 4 00:00:13,380 --> 00:00:15,120 and obey telephoto. 5 00:00:15,509 --> 00:00:23,429 Let's get this rebellion started. We talked a lot about 6 00:00:23,429 --> 00:00:25,739 trust in the episode we did about how you foster 7 00:00:25,739 --> 00:00:30,719 psychological safety in the workplace. And it came up 8 00:00:30,749 --> 00:00:38,219 recently, when we attended the D TX conference in Manchester. And 9 00:00:38,369 --> 00:00:44,159 I was on the panel. And it was a panel on is workforce is 10 00:00:44,159 --> 00:00:50,549 workplace well being the key to a successful workforce in 2023. 11 00:00:51,089 --> 00:00:53,849 And it was a great panel was a wonderful event. I did not know 12 00:00:53,879 --> 00:00:58,619 the DGX. Manchester was the largest tech conference in in 13 00:00:58,619 --> 00:01:03,719 the north, I think. And it was phenomenal. And I was joined on 14 00:01:03,719 --> 00:01:08,309 stage by some incredible panelists, there were reps from 15 00:01:08,339 --> 00:01:12,659 and these are senior bigwigs from Kellogg's from infinity 16 00:01:12,659 --> 00:01:18,059 works and beauty Bay. And the topic was really relevant and 17 00:01:18,059 --> 00:01:21,239 the audience. Normally when you do these panels, audiences don't 18 00:01:21,239 --> 00:01:24,419 ask that many questions. But this time, the audience had a 19 00:01:24,419 --> 00:01:27,419 lot to talk about workforce wellbeing and whether it's the 20 00:01:27,419 --> 00:01:30,989 key to the success of the future of work. But one question that 21 00:01:30,989 --> 00:01:35,039 was really challenging, in fact, there were two. And they were 22 00:01:35,039 --> 00:01:39,209 from two different perspectives on the same topic. So we I 23 00:01:39,209 --> 00:01:43,409 thought we should talk about it was this thing about trust? And 24 00:01:43,409 --> 00:01:50,189 what happens when it breaks? Right? So the question was, for 25 00:01:50,189 --> 00:01:53,729 one person, what happens when employees don't trust their 26 00:01:53,729 --> 00:01:57,389 managers and leaders? And then someone else asked about, you 27 00:01:57,389 --> 00:02:00,689 know, what happens when employees take advantage of the 28 00:02:00,689 --> 00:02:04,559 organization's generosity in supporting them with their 29 00:02:04,559 --> 00:02:08,789 mental well being efforts and use it as an excuse to be lazy 30 00:02:08,789 --> 00:02:14,129 or work shy? So yeah, it was also about how do you go about 31 00:02:14,129 --> 00:02:18,569 rebuilding trust? So this trust issue is one that people 32 00:02:18,599 --> 00:02:23,159 understand now that they have to grapple with both individually 33 00:02:23,159 --> 00:02:26,369 and corporately? And so we thought it was something that 34 00:02:26,369 --> 00:02:29,939 was worth us talking about? Because at least answering 35 00:02:29,940 --> 00:02:33,330 the question, because, yeah, when you're on a panel, and 36 00:02:33,330 --> 00:02:35,550 people have questions to answer it, and then everybody, the 37 00:02:35,550 --> 00:02:38,400 panel would have to add bits and bobs. But it'd be nice to 38 00:02:38,400 --> 00:02:43,620 actually just almost like, respond fully. What we would 39 00:02:43,620 --> 00:02:46,260 normally have said, if we didn't have time restraint, that makes 40 00:02:46,260 --> 00:02:50,220 sense. So that was, so I think the first question that I wanted 41 00:02:50,340 --> 00:02:51,750 to, to answer 42 00:02:52,200 --> 00:02:56,460 is the personal one, about employees who have, who have 43 00:02:56,460 --> 00:03:01,710 experienced a breach of trust, who've been hurt. So I can't 44 00:03:01,710 --> 00:03:04,530 even break confidence because I don't know this person's name. 45 00:03:05,040 --> 00:03:10,170 She had worked for a previous company, had had suffered, 46 00:03:10,200 --> 00:03:15,330 having told her managers about her mental wellbeing concerns. 47 00:03:15,750 --> 00:03:19,410 And their response was much less than favorable. I don't know 48 00:03:19,410 --> 00:03:21,150 what the company was. We didn't know 49 00:03:21,150 --> 00:03:25,500 anything about that. But clearly it worked in tech. But the words 50 00:03:25,500 --> 00:03:29,940 he was asking, was that what do you do? What is how can you see 51 00:03:29,970 --> 00:03:34,890 an employee? What could you have done differently? Because her 52 00:03:34,920 --> 00:03:39,540 issue was I told them, what was going on with me? And they acted 53 00:03:39,540 --> 00:03:43,170 like they didn't believe me, I would lie. And what did that 54 00:03:43,170 --> 00:03:46,950 leave? Where did that leave her basically? So it can interesting 55 00:03:47,010 --> 00:03:50,730 to ponder, what did the employee do when that happened to them? 56 00:03:51,120 --> 00:03:55,200 Before the organization? What can you do when an employee 57 00:03:55,200 --> 00:03:58,950 who's either left or actually doesn't feel the contract the 58 00:03:58,950 --> 00:04:01,680 manager to your leaders to support them in their time of 59 00:04:01,680 --> 00:04:04,980 need? Okay, you could have two perspective, one for the 60 00:04:04,980 --> 00:04:09,090 employee himself, and two, for the organization. When you have 61 00:04:09,090 --> 00:04:12,660 employees like the saying that they're not happy, or they're 62 00:04:12,660 --> 00:04:17,850 not listening to openly by their leader and manager. What can you 63 00:04:17,850 --> 00:04:18,540 do about that? 64 00:04:19,320 --> 00:04:24,930 Okay, so for an employee, it's a very personal thing, first of 65 00:04:24,930 --> 00:04:29,760 all, to have the courage to say, I'm really struggling this thing 66 00:04:29,940 --> 00:04:34,140 is not easy. I know from firsthand experience, I wouldn't 67 00:04:34,140 --> 00:04:38,940 tell anybody at work because of the fear that they would say, 68 00:04:38,940 --> 00:04:42,510 well, that's just because you're crap, or that they wouldn't 69 00:04:42,510 --> 00:04:45,990 believe me, or that it'd be held against me all the things that 70 00:04:45,990 --> 00:04:49,080 we've talked about previous episodes that stop people from 71 00:04:49,080 --> 00:04:53,940 coming forward. I didn't tell a single soul. I just didn't show 72 00:04:53,940 --> 00:04:58,260 up for work when I got signed off. That's it. So the fact that 73 00:04:58,350 --> 00:05:03,090 if you come across An employee who has had the confidence, or 74 00:05:03,090 --> 00:05:07,290 is either that desperate courage, the courage Yeah, that 75 00:05:07,290 --> 00:05:12,330 they have been able to tell you, as a manager, that they're going 76 00:05:12,330 --> 00:05:16,650 through a difficulty, doesn't know what strength that took, 77 00:05:17,100 --> 00:05:21,900 it's very, very difficult if you if you do that if you take that 78 00:05:22,140 --> 00:05:27,270 deep personal risk, and then you're met with either apathy or 79 00:05:27,480 --> 00:05:32,730 even worse, a lack of belief, if that happens to you, certain 80 00:05:32,730 --> 00:05:37,020 things will happen. First of all, you will never risk 81 00:05:37,020 --> 00:05:40,440 exposing yourself like that to that individual or possibly even 82 00:05:40,440 --> 00:05:44,940 to anyone in that organization ever again. Because you have you 83 00:05:44,940 --> 00:05:48,360 as the manager has just proven that they're not safe to do so. 84 00:05:48,810 --> 00:05:55,170 And to, they then will likely not be able to get the help that 85 00:05:55,170 --> 00:06:02,220 they need. So the problem will exacerbate My advice to you if 86 00:06:02,250 --> 00:06:06,990 this is you going through this is, first of all well done, for 87 00:06:06,990 --> 00:06:10,920 telling someone as the kill kidsave for speaking your truth. 88 00:06:11,820 --> 00:06:15,780 Well done. And I am very sorry that you weren't met with the 89 00:06:15,780 --> 00:06:18,990 kind of grace and compassion that you should have been, or 90 00:06:18,990 --> 00:06:22,980 that you weren't given an effective avenue for support and 91 00:06:22,980 --> 00:06:29,400 help. It is not your fault. likely it is not your fault, 92 00:06:29,490 --> 00:06:35,700 right? So don't stop being brave. Just find someone who 93 00:06:35,700 --> 00:06:39,690 just deserves that courage. And if that's not in your workplace, 94 00:06:39,720 --> 00:06:41,280 find it outside, 95 00:06:41,670 --> 00:06:44,100 you know, other workloads. I think that's a good point there. 96 00:06:44,430 --> 00:06:47,520 Also, if it's not your actual manager, because I'd like to 97 00:06:47,520 --> 00:06:51,240 think if I'm, if I was speaking to her on the side, and two came 98 00:06:51,240 --> 00:06:54,000 up, it took me one on one on the side, I forgot what are say, 99 00:06:54,390 --> 00:06:57,270 your manager did not believe you what the next How do you 100 00:06:57,270 --> 00:07:00,330 escalate it, who's the next person that you could tell? It 101 00:07:00,330 --> 00:07:02,790 could be another manager from another department, it could be 102 00:07:02,790 --> 00:07:06,750 the money manager, it could be HR. So just a question of what 103 00:07:06,780 --> 00:07:10,710 are the procedures and for organization, you should have a 104 00:07:10,710 --> 00:07:14,160 procedures for this. If a manager is not doing what's 105 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:18,990 required, what to can employ you do neck with the next person 106 00:07:18,990 --> 00:07:23,460 they can talk to, or who that person they can talk to, if 107 00:07:23,460 --> 00:07:25,950 they're not getting what they require. So that's one. And the 108 00:07:25,950 --> 00:07:29,700 second thing I would have been asking about access to her EAP 109 00:07:29,700 --> 00:07:32,520 she's access to mentors, you know what they are, and what 110 00:07:32,550 --> 00:07:36,090 offers to see, qualify for any of those things. I've been 111 00:07:36,090 --> 00:07:40,260 coding, let's go and check them out. And if t an encoding her to 112 00:07:40,260 --> 00:07:45,840 you them based on what you offer it, that do not be afraid to do 113 00:07:46,290 --> 00:07:51,060 is to consider external support lockdown or coat of dental 114 00:07:51,060 --> 00:07:55,110 therapy would depend on what's going on firm for them. So that 115 00:07:55,110 --> 00:07:59,130 they can think about you and only you know the word, you are 116 00:07:59,130 --> 00:08:03,780 the priority, you come first. So that way you have opportunity to 117 00:08:03,780 --> 00:08:07,410 think about what you need, what you need for your career, what 118 00:08:07,440 --> 00:08:10,080 lifestyle, you're looking for all of that stuff and makes it 119 00:08:10,080 --> 00:08:13,530 about you in a way that you may not have that confidence with 120 00:08:13,530 --> 00:08:16,500 your manager to discuss it. And clearly, if trust had been 121 00:08:16,500 --> 00:08:18,720 broken in this way where they don't believe you or think 122 00:08:18,720 --> 00:08:21,510 you're lying, I wouldn't be trying to encourage them to go 123 00:08:21,510 --> 00:08:24,360 back and talk to that manager about their future planning. 124 00:08:24,390 --> 00:08:27,060 That's not something I'd want to include. Because I don't want 125 00:08:27,060 --> 00:08:33,180 them to feel even more unsafe than the data we say, if a 126 00:08:33,180 --> 00:08:37,290 company no longer feels right for an individual, right? If 127 00:08:37,290 --> 00:08:40,170 you've not worked out, this is not the right place for me, I 128 00:08:40,170 --> 00:08:43,620 don't feel safe here, give or take whatever departments I'm 129 00:08:43,620 --> 00:08:47,460 going to be, then I'm going to encourage this person who asked 130 00:08:47,460 --> 00:08:52,170 me to figure out how she can safely exit from this 131 00:08:52,170 --> 00:08:55,200 organization, people get worse when they're not being supported 132 00:08:55,200 --> 00:09:00,960 at work, they feel less motivated. Dado is not helpful 133 00:09:00,960 --> 00:09:04,530 to her or the organization really. So it's in her best 134 00:09:04,530 --> 00:09:08,430 interest to figure out how you can safely exit from a company 135 00:09:08,430 --> 00:09:12,780 to somewhere else where she can be more herself and get lost in 136 00:09:12,780 --> 00:09:16,320 it. But what I will be encoding when that time comes for her to 137 00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:22,830 leave to be honest, and kind about why is she leaving during 138 00:09:22,830 --> 00:09:26,850 the exit interview. If they exit interviews, they should be if 139 00:09:26,850 --> 00:09:29,310 your organization don't have one, you should definitely have 140 00:09:29,310 --> 00:09:34,290 one for every employee who hides in there notice because that 141 00:09:34,290 --> 00:09:36,960 will give her opportunity to let the organization know the real 142 00:09:36,960 --> 00:09:42,660 reason why she left the support she had or didn't have any 143 00:09:42,690 --> 00:09:45,210 recommendation district to make them no longer her business 144 00:09:45,210 --> 00:09:49,920 anymore. But I wondered if she does that then say Oh, I got a 145 00:09:49,920 --> 00:09:53,520 different job. Different pay. I'm gonna be honest about what 146 00:09:53,520 --> 00:09:56,460 it was that contributed to it. Well, the key thing that I 147 00:09:56,490 --> 00:10:02,670 always say to Hey Charlie did I And I always said, people who 148 00:10:02,670 --> 00:10:05,820 have mental health issues or struggles, or whatever it is, 149 00:10:05,820 --> 00:10:10,020 and physical health issues, they will eventually get well, right? 150 00:10:10,230 --> 00:10:12,810 Eventually, they'll get well, they'll figure themselves out, 151 00:10:12,810 --> 00:10:16,680 they'll get treatment, whatever. But they will never forget how 152 00:10:16,680 --> 00:10:20,220 you treated them, how you supported them. And if you 153 00:10:20,220 --> 00:10:23,760 didn't support them appropriately, or well, they 154 00:10:23,760 --> 00:10:28,230 will actively look for a way to leave. Today already seen what 155 00:10:28,230 --> 00:10:32,040 you like, if other people have watched them go through this, 156 00:10:32,730 --> 00:10:37,140 what them struggle, what how their managers responded to 157 00:10:37,140 --> 00:10:40,560 them, they also know that it's not a place I can trust, either. 158 00:10:40,950 --> 00:10:44,160 And they will be seeking to leave. Because when people don't 159 00:10:44,160 --> 00:10:48,240 feel safe in their space, when they attend, they spend a lot of 160 00:10:48,240 --> 00:10:52,560 energy, trying to figure out how to get themselves safe with me 161 00:10:52,590 --> 00:10:54,930 constantly working their back all of that stuff. So that's 162 00:10:54,930 --> 00:10:58,320 what I wanted to, to wrap up that what I would have to say to 163 00:10:58,320 --> 00:11:01,230 an individual person who is struggling, we get this all the 164 00:11:01,230 --> 00:11:05,100 time. We're psychologist and coach. So therefore, I will have 165 00:11:05,130 --> 00:11:09,510 individual people asking for support because their HR isn't 166 00:11:09,510 --> 00:11:11,700 providing that for the organization. It's not providing 167 00:11:11,700 --> 00:11:15,030 that they could do exactly the strategy are we getting them to 168 00:11:15,030 --> 00:11:17,220 do? We wanted to share that with you all? 169 00:11:17,729 --> 00:11:23,909 Great. So that answers the individuals question about what 170 00:11:23,909 --> 00:11:29,399 do I do? Because they didn't help me the answer and summaries 171 00:11:29,489 --> 00:11:35,429 continue to get help pursue that because you deserve. You deserve 172 00:11:35,429 --> 00:11:41,459 to feel well continue to pursue all avenues available to you for 173 00:11:41,459 --> 00:11:48,479 help go up if you must go around if you can go external, but get 174 00:11:48,479 --> 00:11:54,749 the help. But then there's the point of view of the company, 175 00:11:54,779 --> 00:11:59,339 the company, what does a company do or an organization or a 176 00:11:59,339 --> 00:12:07,139 leader do if they feel that they're, they are providing that 177 00:12:07,139 --> 00:12:13,409 kind of level of support, the psychological safety, all of the 178 00:12:13,409 --> 00:12:17,879 things as it said, but their employees are taking the mick 179 00:12:18,389 --> 00:12:25,019 and are using their generosity as an excuse not to work or to 180 00:12:25,019 --> 00:12:30,839 shirk. Now, we get this question a lot less so nowadays, I must 181 00:12:30,839 --> 00:12:33,569 admit, but in the first few years, people would say but if 182 00:12:33,569 --> 00:12:37,079 you're doing this, if you're if you're always showing them that 183 00:12:37,079 --> 00:12:40,529 you care, and you're showing the soft side, then they'll just 184 00:12:40,529 --> 00:12:45,419 take the mick, which is a very old school approach is a very 185 00:12:45,419 --> 00:12:50,489 paternalistic approach to how you view the employer employee 186 00:12:50,519 --> 00:12:57,449 relationship. Yeah, but the truth is, as I said, always, 187 00:12:57,479 --> 00:13:02,009 always focus your attention where you're going to get the 188 00:13:02,009 --> 00:13:09,029 most reward. Why would you focus on the tiny fraction of people 189 00:13:09,239 --> 00:13:14,189 who may take advantage of your mental health support, which 190 00:13:14,189 --> 00:13:19,769 might be 1%? Even if it's 10%? Why would you take to focus on 191 00:13:19,769 --> 00:13:22,709 how you can stop that from happening when you should be 192 00:13:22,709 --> 00:13:29,579 focusing on the bigger prize, the vast majority of people who 193 00:13:29,639 --> 00:13:35,009 have mental health concerns, under report, they don't access 194 00:13:35,009 --> 00:13:40,289 help, they don't take time off work. Only a small number of 195 00:13:40,289 --> 00:13:44,309 people, a tiny fraction of healthy employees will use the 196 00:13:44,309 --> 00:13:48,359 mental health excuse to stop them from doing work. Right? 197 00:13:48,749 --> 00:13:54,629 You're not trying to manage the worst performance, you're 198 00:13:54,629 --> 00:13:58,619 focusing your efforts on how you can bring the best performance 199 00:13:58,619 --> 00:14:03,029 out of your employees. So if someone brings up their mental 200 00:14:03,029 --> 00:14:09,449 health issues and concerns, believe them, it is 99% more 201 00:14:09,449 --> 00:14:12,479 likely that they're going to be telling the truth and a lie. 202 00:14:12,989 --> 00:14:17,489 Don't assume that it's just an easy cop out. If you can assume 203 00:14:17,519 --> 00:14:22,769 that they are telling the truth because you've created that 204 00:14:22,799 --> 00:14:26,489 environment of psychological safety and trust. If you assume 205 00:14:26,489 --> 00:14:29,549 that they're telling the truth, you have a good relationship, 206 00:14:29,729 --> 00:14:32,549 then assume that if they tell you that they can't manage their 207 00:14:32,549 --> 00:14:35,219 performance because of their mental health struggles, that 208 00:14:35,219 --> 00:14:39,929 they're telling the truth, the two are not mutually exclusive, 209 00:14:39,929 --> 00:14:44,939 right? Then recognize that this is going to have an impact not 210 00:14:44,939 --> 00:14:48,269 just on them, but on the wider team. You're going to have to do 211 00:14:48,269 --> 00:14:50,819 something to manage it. You can't just do it. They're there 212 00:14:50,969 --> 00:14:53,999 as the show Have you have you thought about calling the EP, 213 00:14:54,209 --> 00:14:56,939 you're gonna have to make sure this person gets help as quickly 214 00:14:56,939 --> 00:15:02,429 and effectively as possible because whilst They are not at 215 00:15:02,429 --> 00:15:06,659 their best, they are going to be underperforming. And that's what 216 00:15:06,659 --> 00:15:11,009 we call them well being black hole, one person is affected. 217 00:15:11,399 --> 00:15:16,259 Everyone sees what your response is to that, it's generally to 218 00:15:16,289 --> 00:15:20,519 divide the workload amongst the remaining members of staff who 219 00:15:20,519 --> 00:15:23,459 are fully operational, it will, it will reduce their 220 00:15:23,459 --> 00:15:26,489 productivity. But if you also, another element of the well 221 00:15:26,489 --> 00:15:29,879 being black hole is, if you view the way you're treating this 222 00:15:29,879 --> 00:15:32,249 individual as something that's not private, between you and 223 00:15:32,249 --> 00:15:36,239 them, it's visible to everybody. Everybody's going to see how you 224 00:15:36,239 --> 00:15:40,289 respond to employ X, when they came to you with their problem, 225 00:15:40,619 --> 00:15:44,579 and decide whether or not they can truly, truly trust you with 226 00:15:44,579 --> 00:15:50,429 this. So make sure that you know that you're on show and what it 227 00:15:50,459 --> 00:15:54,059 whatever you do from that point onward, will either grow or 228 00:15:54,059 --> 00:15:56,909 erode the trust that you have between yourself and your 229 00:15:56,909 --> 00:15:57,779 employees 230 00:15:58,110 --> 00:16:01,290 will not get the unacknowledged. Exactly. To be fat. I'm going to 231 00:16:01,290 --> 00:16:04,410 be very honest, when I hear this question, we hear it a lot, who 232 00:16:04,410 --> 00:16:07,140 says what do you do when employees are taking advantage? 233 00:16:07,170 --> 00:16:10,110 I know for a fact that your managers have not been trained, 234 00:16:10,140 --> 00:16:13,560 I know that for a fact, I can almost set the clock on it. In 235 00:16:13,560 --> 00:16:17,940 other words, there is no way a fully transformational train 236 00:16:18,360 --> 00:16:23,820 manager would assume that if they did, because this person 237 00:16:23,820 --> 00:16:26,790 already had history of mid case, you're looking at about one 238 00:16:26,790 --> 00:16:30,360 content about one person or two people. When if you be concerned 239 00:16:30,390 --> 00:16:33,180 about the majority of people who do their work and want to do 240 00:16:33,180 --> 00:16:35,910 well. So they didn't want it to something comes up because they 241 00:16:35,910 --> 00:16:39,750 don't know how to train them. They assume that if someone even 242 00:16:39,870 --> 00:16:44,880 had mental health issue, that is an excuse to an opportunity to 243 00:16:44,880 --> 00:16:49,350 execute poor performance. It's not really it's possible to 244 00:16:49,350 --> 00:16:52,050 support somebody with mental health, at the same time 245 00:16:52,050 --> 00:16:55,350 performance manage them, because performance management isn't a 246 00:16:55,350 --> 00:16:59,040 punitive exercise, I think the idea we think it is. So this is 247 00:16:59,040 --> 00:17:03,960 why it's always clear to me, when managers say that the tools 248 00:17:03,960 --> 00:17:06,660 are going to take the player to because they think saying I'm 249 00:17:06,660 --> 00:17:10,560 not I got mental health issue and giving you carte blanche to 250 00:17:10,560 --> 00:17:14,160 not do your work or show up. That's not true at all. You can 251 00:17:14,160 --> 00:17:17,670 learn how to do boat, you can learn how to be empathetic to 252 00:17:17,670 --> 00:17:20,340 someone's mental health, make sure to get treatment, and make 253 00:17:20,340 --> 00:17:24,810 sure that you have at the manager agreed that scope of 254 00:17:24,810 --> 00:17:27,840 work that this person is going to be doing based on their work 255 00:17:27,840 --> 00:17:30,330 going on with them based on whether or not they're getting 256 00:17:30,330 --> 00:17:32,520 treatment or not getting treatment based on what they've 257 00:17:32,520 --> 00:17:34,980 agreed with the team and how the team is going to help out. This 258 00:17:34,980 --> 00:17:38,070 is very clear to me when someone said somebody taking the pill 259 00:17:38,250 --> 00:17:40,830 just for taking the pill state that they haven't been trained 260 00:17:40,860 --> 00:17:44,670 properly. So if you get I'd hate to get managers coming to you 261 00:17:44,670 --> 00:17:47,370 saying that, Oh my god, I think the people are ordered mental 262 00:17:47,370 --> 00:17:50,520 health issues causing issues. People are just not wanting to 263 00:17:50,520 --> 00:17:56,100 work. You know, you have a training problem. Indicator. You 264 00:17:56,100 --> 00:17:56,880 know what you think about that? 265 00:17:58,110 --> 00:18:01,650 Me and my damn ADHD I can't remember the really great point 266 00:18:01,650 --> 00:18:05,580 that you've you just made, which was you were saying that if 267 00:18:05,580 --> 00:18:09,990 people come to you saying that, Oh, yeah, all this mental health 268 00:18:09,990 --> 00:18:15,120 stuff is there they're taking the piss. One reason might be 269 00:18:15,330 --> 00:18:19,350 because people do often think like, I guess I am talking about 270 00:18:19,350 --> 00:18:23,100 the old school. They think well, you know, bloody out there was 271 00:18:23,100 --> 00:18:25,860 no mental health before now everybody's off sick. Sandra's 272 00:18:25,860 --> 00:18:30,090 obviously, that's the well being black hole. So even if they're 273 00:18:30,090 --> 00:18:33,570 saying, you know, it was one person on the team now it's 10. 274 00:18:33,570 --> 00:18:36,600 It's ridiculous. Oh my gosh, it might be because it's the well 275 00:18:36,600 --> 00:18:39,180 being black hole, which is, like I said, the impact the knock on 276 00:18:39,300 --> 00:18:45,600 impact of one person's illness or productive incapacity on 277 00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:49,800 everybody else, which increases their own stress levels. Or it 278 00:18:49,800 --> 00:18:52,800 might be because you're doing such a good job creating 279 00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:56,190 psychological safety, that people who are hiding it before 280 00:18:56,310 --> 00:18:59,880 are now able to speak up about the fact that they're 281 00:18:59,880 --> 00:19:03,120 struggling, and they need support. And it might be short 282 00:19:03,120 --> 00:19:08,130 term pain for a very, very much bigger long term gain. But yet 283 00:19:08,130 --> 00:19:11,700 people don't take the piss with telling you that they're going 284 00:19:11,700 --> 00:19:16,470 through mental ill health. And if you've created a truly open 285 00:19:16,470 --> 00:19:21,810 culture based on trust, based on mutual respect, based on an 286 00:19:21,810 --> 00:19:24,930 adult adult relationship, you'll know when they're taking the 287 00:19:24,930 --> 00:19:32,130 piss simple, but then how can you tell OB if your employees 288 00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:36,060 don't trust their leaders? So the people who are listening are 289 00:19:36,060 --> 00:19:39,600 good audience are in fact, in HR or in senior management? How do 290 00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:43,590 you know if you haven't got a good level of trust between your 291 00:19:43,650 --> 00:19:45,840 managers and their staff? 292 00:19:46,290 --> 00:19:50,160 Yeah, I'm gonna say first and it behavior so what are people 293 00:19:50,160 --> 00:19:53,190 doing? What are you seeing? I mean, we'll talk about country 294 00:19:53,190 --> 00:19:55,680 office now, right? So two, three days a week people are doing 295 00:19:55,680 --> 00:19:59,580 that. All of a sudden, people are often uncomfortable coming 296 00:19:59,580 --> 00:20:02,040 back into the office just started doing it. And finally 297 00:20:02,040 --> 00:20:05,430 suddenly or not, that might be one, the gossip by the 298 00:20:05,430 --> 00:20:08,490 watercooler what's happening when people say in when people 299 00:20:08,490 --> 00:20:12,990 go off sick, what? What is the? What are they saying about them 300 00:20:12,990 --> 00:20:16,230 after they've been sick, right? When to when they've been off 301 00:20:16,230 --> 00:20:19,920 sick for free to help your organization to send flowers and 302 00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:24,150 cart when someone's off for mental health care nothing, why 303 00:20:24,150 --> 00:20:27,030 the person come back and look like we had leprosy. That's why 304 00:20:27,030 --> 00:20:30,120 the left is the weirdest feeling. So those are the 305 00:20:30,150 --> 00:20:34,590 example your toes you we don't trust, you go out of the office 306 00:20:34,650 --> 00:20:37,770 and be ill for physical health, but not mental health is to what 307 00:20:37,770 --> 00:20:42,030 one in that. One thing I would say, if you also have complaint 308 00:20:42,030 --> 00:20:45,840 include complaint, so gone from like a case of that lady saying 309 00:20:45,840 --> 00:20:49,590 that the manager didn't believe her, then she might have got 310 00:20:49,590 --> 00:20:53,160 escalated it to HR to say, Listen, I've got this thing, and 311 00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:57,240 my manager wouldn't help. If you're getting more that more 312 00:20:57,240 --> 00:21:00,840 complaint of the same manager, maybe the same department that 313 00:21:00,840 --> 00:21:05,430 gives you an indicator as well. And also your surveys. So if you 314 00:21:05,430 --> 00:21:09,810 do post obeys, and frankly, to be fair, if your organization is 315 00:21:09,810 --> 00:21:13,920 one that it already, people want to audit trust issue, you may 316 00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:16,950 not get a clear picture if you send a survey, but at least the 317 00:21:16,950 --> 00:21:20,340 back and do nothing. So send a survey, make those anonymous, 318 00:21:20,370 --> 00:21:25,080 right? And ask very specific question about trust and whether 319 00:21:25,080 --> 00:21:28,410 or not I talked to my manager to support me, I can escalate 320 00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:31,950 things, if I have issues, I'm actively looking to leave the 321 00:21:31,950 --> 00:21:36,150 organization, Mike, you can ask very specific questions that 322 00:21:36,150 --> 00:21:39,780 anonymous could have people can tell you what you need to know. 323 00:21:39,990 --> 00:21:43,740 So that's kind of ideal in terms of behavioral or something that 324 00:21:43,740 --> 00:21:47,070 you're gonna have to see or hear. But I for what one is 325 00:21:47,070 --> 00:21:49,620 feeling inside, you can't possibly or less to ask them. 326 00:21:50,700 --> 00:21:56,580 So to round up, assume your employees are lying to you, when 327 00:21:56,580 --> 00:22:01,350 they say they need help. Assume you do need to continue to build 328 00:22:01,350 --> 00:22:04,650 on the psychological safety that exists within your teams and 329 00:22:04,650 --> 00:22:08,610 your organization. Because you genuinely always do assume that 330 00:22:08,610 --> 00:22:13,290 your managers need to continually learn how to be 331 00:22:13,500 --> 00:22:17,940 better people, managers in terms of creating and cultivating 332 00:22:17,940 --> 00:22:20,880 trust between their employees and, and assume that they don't 333 00:22:20,910 --> 00:22:26,220 just know this stuff by osmosis, but they need your support 334 00:22:26,280 --> 00:22:31,800 through training and education. If that trust is broken, it 335 00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:37,860 takes a long time to restore it, it's gonna take more walking the 336 00:22:37,860 --> 00:22:39,330 walk and talking the talk, right? 337 00:22:39,360 --> 00:22:44,010 Yeah, I think once the truck is broken in organization, it would 338 00:22:44,010 --> 00:22:48,330 have a knock on effect from things on lower engagement, high 339 00:22:48,330 --> 00:22:53,460 turnover, reduced innovation, it just so you have to be prepared 340 00:22:53,700 --> 00:22:58,590 to allow time for that to happen. Okay. And for one of the 341 00:22:58,590 --> 00:23:02,040 questions that actually we didn't talk about it, one with 342 00:23:02,070 --> 00:23:04,140 what happened when someone has come from a different 343 00:23:04,170 --> 00:23:08,880 organization. So they the last organization wasn't quite up to 344 00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:12,270 par, they didn't trust them to come into your organization 345 00:23:12,300 --> 00:23:15,750 having some level of lack of trust, because you're not sure 346 00:23:15,750 --> 00:23:18,810 like based on past experiences, which is why is it important 347 00:23:18,810 --> 00:23:22,590 when new people join your team, you need to be able to share 348 00:23:22,590 --> 00:23:25,170 with them about what you're doing, how you're helping to 349 00:23:25,170 --> 00:23:28,500 build trust, how they can come to who they can go to talk to 350 00:23:28,500 --> 00:23:32,040 about thing, just to help them to let them have that baggage 351 00:23:32,070 --> 00:23:34,950 that you might have come with from another organization to be 352 00:23:34,950 --> 00:23:39,870 able to let them know, let that get that light, load lighter. So 353 00:23:39,870 --> 00:23:43,080 that way, they can start to form relationship with a new team, 354 00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:46,170 new manager, and don't bring old baggage into a new organization. 355 00:23:46,170 --> 00:23:48,750 But that's the reason why we think it's important that worker 356 00:23:48,750 --> 00:23:53,040 safety because that account for new people joining your 357 00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:54,180 organizations or teams. 358 00:23:54,690 --> 00:23:59,910 To round off, I'm gonna end this episode with a quote, because 359 00:23:59,940 --> 00:24:04,050 everything we've talked about reminded me of my favorite 360 00:24:04,110 --> 00:24:08,640 American author Maya Angelou. And that famous quote that she 361 00:24:08,670 --> 00:24:12,660 had, I've learned that people will forget what you said, 362 00:24:12,930 --> 00:24:18,810 people will forget what you did. But people will never forget how 363 00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:23,640 you made them feel. loved that. Yeah, that's what it's about. 364 00:24:24,030 --> 00:24:29,160 All right. Thank you. We'll see you next time next time. Thanks 365 00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:32,040 for listening to this episode of The wellbeing rebellion. 366 00:24:32,490 --> 00:24:34,860 If you liked what you just heard, please share it with your 367 00:24:34,860 --> 00:24:38,040 colleagues. Follow us on LinkedIn. The link could be in 368 00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:40,170 the show notes and genuinely show us some love. 369 00:24:40,620 --> 00:24:44,280 We want to build a whole army of fellow rebels who want to create 370 00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:47,760 positive workplaces for everyone. Will you join the 371 00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:49,710 rebellion? See you next time.