Amy Lynn Durham: I think for me, what it comes down to is, how do we turn our professional identity into opportunity, and what does that look like?
Shauna Van Mourik: I'm going to argue you want to put more human into it, and the reason I say that is because right now you're different. Differentiators aren't going to be the things you're going to see on paper. You don't see behind me, my degrees or anything like that, because that in today's world doesn't matter nearly as much as it did in the past. This is why I say that we need to really break out from this outdated way of thinking about how we're showing up in the world and how we're showing up in our careers and in our businesses.
Amy Lynn Durham: Hey, it's Amy, welcome to create magic at work, where we cast visions for a future of work, where business decisions ripple outward to our teams, our communities, the planet and humanity as a whole. If you're ready to edge walk instead of sleepwalk through your leadership, you're in the right place. So let's start making magic at work. Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of create magic at work. Today, I have something interesting for all of the listeners and the create magic at work community. I am bringing a guest on the show that is a Marketing Strategist, Speaker and host of the podcast marketing rebels, Shauna van morick. The reason why I'm doing this is because I know a lot of the listeners of create magic at work are leaders in the workplace. That's what this show has always been about. But Shauna and I are going to talk today about why building your personal brand could be important for you and why it might not be important for you. So I think this is going to be an interesting conversation. A little more about Shawna. She is a number one international best selling author and featured expert on 22 plus stages and podcasts. She's helped hundreds of women service based entrepreneurs, clarify their message, streamline their marketing, and grow businesses that actually feel good to run. Shawna blends marketing psychology, neuroscience and bold creativity to help clients, attract aligned clients, charge their worth and build brands that feel like home. Shawna, welcome to create magic at work. Thanks for coming on to talk about this topic with all of us. I'm actually
Shauna Van Mourik: thrilled this is going to be quite the ride, because I know you and I both love to talk about things that well, let's be real that matter.
Amy Lynn Durham: Yeah, yeah. So we're going to talk about marketing today, but we're going to talk about how somebody in the workplace might want to build their personal brand, like I think a lot about my my former colleagues that I stay in contact with that are maybe thinking about a career transition, or maybe thinking about, hey, maybe I'm going to leave this corporate space and start my own HR consulting firm, or, you know, something along those lines. So why should we care about creating a personal brand. Now, if we're in the workspace,
Shauna Van Mourik: I love that question, and it's a really important one to have. I know that previously, we were talking about, how is it important? Is it not important to have a personal brand, even as a human being, let alone in the in the corporate space or as a business owner, and I have some pretty solid. I mean, research backed opinions on on that whole kind of journey. And when it comes to being in a corporate space, it's really important to understand your personal brand in such that you know what you're bringing to the table. This is vital if you're going to create a resume or a cover letter that's actually going to stand out, that's actually going to make people raise their eyebrows and go, Yes, please. You want to move up. You want to make an impact. You need to know what you bring to the table. And this is the exact same for anybody who's in entrepreneurship. What does your business bring to your table? Put to the table. What do you add to what you do in your business? That is that extra something that makes people pick you over someone else who's doing the same thing. And now that's, of course, a more business answer. I have a few ideas on why it might important to just take that journey anyways, regardless of whether you're looking to expand your business or
Amy Lynn Durham: accelerate your career. Yeah, I think for me, what it comes down to is, how do we turn our professional identity into opportunity, and what does that look like, or our whole identity? Like you mentioned, the human piece right into opportunity. And a lot of times in this world, we have to translate that somehow into branding and marketing. How do we do that without feeling like we're taking the human out of it, or where we're being inauthentic, and all of a sudden we're using chat, GBT and just copy pasting it. How do we dive into that? And why should we? Yeah, absolutely.
Shauna Van Mourik: In fact, I'm going to argue you want to put more human into it, and the reason I say that is because right now, your differentiators aren't going to be the things you're going to see on paper. You don't see behind me, my degrees or anything like that, because that in today's world doesn't matter nearly as much as it did in the past. This is why I say that we need to really break out from this outdated way of thinking about how we're showing up in the world and how we're showing up in our careers and in our businesses. This tells you more about me than any of my pretty degrees ever could. And so if you've got a pretty on paper type of reflection on who you are, then you're looking towards, first of all, external validation to qualify your worth, which, as a human is not advantageous. But also in today's workplace and in the business landscape in general, those previously, I'm not going to use this word. I don't like this, this way of describing it. I'm just going to use it for the sake of making sure everybody understands soft skills. Okay, these really, they're performance enhancing skills, the things that make us human and able to connect as humans, those are the things that are actually going to make you stand out as we move forward.
Amy Lynn Durham: Okay, so let's go back a little bit. First, tell us about your wall. For those that aren't seeing the video that you were pointing to, because you're talking about certifications versus like, the the emotion of being like a full human, or the characteristics. So what? So tell us a couple of things on your wall that you were pointing to, just so the listeners can get an idea, I would
Shauna Van Mourik: love nothing more than to dive into my beautiful wall. So first of all, plants, yeah, they're fake, but I'm in a basement, but I need plants in my world. So having greenery in my space is really important. The second thing, and you'll notice that my outfit kind of matches Forbidden Forest National Park. Is on my T shirt. I also have the Marauders Map on my wall and some beautiful characters that are from Harry Potter that my children made for me. They're they're lovely, and a sign that is all about family, because family first. Now, although I don't believe in the principles that the Harry Potter author brings to the world. I do love the Harry Potter world. I love the magic. I love the camaraderie, and it really was a staple part of how I grew up. Another thing that I have over here is it there is a certificate here. This is for Toastmasters, though a little bit different. I'm very proud of my role in Toastmasters, because Toastmasters is a very community centered organization that helps all sorts of people in various parts of their life, business and career, right? Caricature and my book, because, of course, as a number one international best selling, I've got a chapter in this book, mastery, unleashed. It's a really great experience. And so that's the other side of me. But yeah, that's the stuff that when I'm if you were to receive a resume that says degree in psychology, blah blah blah blah, degree in rhetoric, blah blah, blah blah blah, that's how fine and dandy. But you know how many other people were in that same program with me? What makes me different is all the rest. Yeah, and that is your personal brand. That's what you're bringing to the table. Interesting.
Amy Lynn Durham: This is such a different conversation for me, so I'm trying to lean into it more, because now I'm thinking, you know, I've interacted with a lot of highly competent people, and it's what some of the frustrations that come up from people that are highly competent, highly certified, very, very good at what they do is the influencer wins sometimes with the revenue streams and the marketing and the frustration comes out because it's like sometimes people are selling their brand or their coaching or their consulting or whatever it is, and then the people that step into those offers don't feel like they really got what they were being promised, because the marketing one and the people that are super competent and rearing to go, they're not nailing the marketing piece, and so there's this divide I've seen over the past few years in the coaching space, where there's some really deep frustration with competent experts. They have all the certifications, and they aren't receiving the clients that maybe the. Savvy marketer influencer would that actually isn't delivering the results that this highly competent, certified other person could deliver on. So tell us what your thoughts are on how we can close that divide Absolutely.
Shauna Van Mourik: And I mean, I think you kind of just made my point. It's like, in the end, we want results, right? And we need to base all of our decisions whether, like I say, whether you're in your career, or whether you're growing your business, or just living your day to day. And you need to ground those decisions in reality, not in idealist notions. So if in reality, you know that your certifications and experience are going to create a better result. That's amazing, and I believe that I endorse that wholeheartedly, right? That's why I am a file of math. I'm a lover of learning. I went to school for way longer than I probably should have, would have, could have, however, that can that accounts for nothing if a, no one sees what you have to offer. B, no one understands the meaning behind what you offer and see they don't connect with the transformation you provide, right? They have to have faith in that. And the fact of the matter, matter is somebody who's savvy in those things, regardless of their backing, they're going to convert. Does it suck? Yeah, absolutely freaking lutely. But this is why we need such a versatile approach to how we're showing up in the world, in career, business life. We need to understand that those previous soft skills, those connective bits and pieces that people would Oh, it's nice that they speak eloquently, or it's nice that they're up with the times, but now it's important. Now it's vital. You can't just not and rely on your book smarts.
Amy Lynn Durham: You have to have both. Okay, so if someone question, yeah, well, I'm going to ask you another question on that. So if someone listening has been working in the corporate space, and they are inside a company, and they're considering maybe in a few years, they want to move to fractional work or consulting with their expertise, what shift has to happen in how they position themselves today on, say, LinkedIn or something like that?
Shauna Van Mourik: Yeah, absolutely. So first of all, you want to consider positioning yourself as a leader more than your credentials, right? Like, I mean, an actual thought leader, somebody who is immersed in the day to day of whatever it is you're experienced in, and make sure people see you doing that. I'm not talking about chest beating. Okay, I'm not. I don't really endorse that sort of thing. What I'm talking about is just highlighting the fact that, hey, I've thought about this, and I'd like to bring you into my my world, my knowledge into my knowledge space. Maybe we can have more conversations now. We're connecting. We're intentionally connecting with people in our space, both through our what, what we're putting out into the world as as posts or articles, etc, with a strategy, but we're also reaching out to people directly and having those legitimate conversations. Right? That's the first shift, because now you're taking action, now you're being savvy, now you're putting yourself out there. You're checking those boxes, slowly building that repository so that when you do take that move, you've already got a foundation that's strong enough to support you.
Amy Lynn Durham: Yeah, I think we're playing around right now with internal value versus external signaling, like I know my value, I know my thought leadership, a lot of high level professionals, I mean myself included, because we feel like we've done so much work. We feel like the work should speak for itself, and then there's a level of frustration that comes up when it doesn't. And so how can we give us some examples of how we can do that in an aligned way that feels good, where our internal value that we know we have is all of a sudden showing up externally, and people are noticing it through this feel good way of doing that. Like, like you mentioned thought leadership on, on LinkedIn. Like, give us some examples of what that could look like.
Shauna Van Mourik: Well, I'm actually going to root this in mindset. And I know everybody here is cringing right now. I am like, I My face is cringing because I hate, I hate going back to mindset, um, but let me put this into like, practical, tangible notions for you, all your assets that you bring forth that you know Hold Value. The only reason you really know the value it holds is because you're immersed in it. This is going to sound harsh, but we need to understand that the. General public, and even many people who are simply in different fields or in or in parallel studies to us, they will not fully understand the value of what you bring if you don't hold their hunting and tell them they won't and you can't expect them to That's unfair. I cannot possibly articulate the level of value that a microbiologist brings to the world. I can speculate. I can speculate. I mean, I'm assuming that a microbiologist does some work with maybe it's biology, maybe it's just a study. I don't I'm not 100% sure, but I know it has worth. I don't know what though I would need them for me to fully understand or understand them, I would need them to really walk me through it. And even then, even then, we need to understand that our understanding of something is is infinitesimally small compared to what could be understood about the thing that that we have to offer. So I think under and shifting your mindset around expecting others to know more than they do, understanding that that's unreasonable and really not founded in reality. I think that shouldn't help.
Amy Lynn Durham: Yeah, I think that's a good one. So shifting into the I've even seen it in the past few years with people that have authored books, like amazing leaders, amazing thought leaders, amazing humans. And maybe they post about their book a couple of times, and then it's sort of expected that everybody knows about it. For example, I authored create magic at work, the activity book I authored, creating career magic, the daily prompt journal. And I sit with an understanding that nobody knows about them from a good place, like I operate in that way, because nobody, like, even today, five, six years down the road, somebody, oh my gosh, you wrote a book. Yeah. Like, not everybody's gonna know that. And so talking about it frequently is important, and not assuming that you put one thing out and everybody is going to know and remember that that's a little high self oriented, in my opinion. But it also comes from the space when you're a corporate leader and you have hundreds of employees, the perception of you is quite different than when you switch into an entrepreneur role. And some of us that are in the leadership corporate space have a hard time transitioning into the entrepreneur space in that way. I just and it's such an interesting journey of self discovery and of humbleness, I would say so on that note, if somebody's listening and they are considering moving into, you know, oh, I might leave my job and start my own thing one day? What are some stepping stones that they can plan for that someday to start, or maybe some scaffolding or some groundwork that they can start doing, and maybe more importantly, what's an internal shift that has to happen before they can confidently share their expertise publicly? I think that's
Shauna Van Mourik: a really great question, and I think that I'd like to reflect a little bit a little bit on what you said previously about how, how short lived some of the things that you share with the world could be. First of all, we know social media, we know it's saturated. So you know, the life of a post on almost any platform is only like three hours, truly. So understanding that too. It's just pushed away. So we do need to talk about it more often. The second thing that you reference that you may you may or may not know you referenced is actually called the sonder effect. And that's that centralization of like seeing yourself as the main character and not necessarily being aware of the fact that everybody does that and so so so good. You actually might just be a silhouette in the background of somebody else's main character movie, and you don't realize it. So I would argue, look into sonder effect, understand your role in that, do the work that's necessary there. And also, you mentioned something about going into entrepreneurship. While that is absolutely valid for this conversation, it doesn't need to only be housed in that circumstance if you want to accelerate even in the same company, as you said, there are many leaders who have so many people within their space. You've got hundreds, if not 1000s of people in a lot of the bigger organizations, understanding that even if you're well known in your capacity, in your like your department, you're in the marketing field, or you're in the sales field, or you're in the whichever, it doesn't even matter. That doesn't mean they know you in the field and in the department over there, right? It can be within the same corporation you want to move up upper management might not even know. Exist. It sucks to think about it that way. It does, but it's the reality of the situation. This is why I say all of this is grounded in you need to live in reality. You need to humble yourself a little bit and figure out how you
can leverage what you have in order to get to where you want to go. So it really is just that that shift in thinking and understanding what kind of impact you want to make and what you're willing to curate in order to get there. And by curate, I mean your personal brand. How are you showing up? My podcast really says you're never not marketing, and I believe that it doesn't matter if you're standing in line at your local grocery store with a bucket of ice cream when I don't know dinner for the evening, or whether you're in a in a corporate event and you're putting a presentation on for everyone to see. It doesn't matter. You're marketing. How are people receiving you? How are you connecting beyond your little world? If that is your goal, just reflect, consider this and see what kind of personal brand are you intending to curate for yourself?
Amy Lynn Durham: Yeah, what about those of us that feel like that? Sounds exhausting, like I have to be marketing everywhere I go, like, even when I'm standing in line buying ice cream right now, like that feels what about people that are listening like that? Feels exhausting. I just want to go home and, like, binge Netflix after work. Maybe they will, you know, they want to be successful as well.
Shauna Van Mourik: Yeah, I would say really lean into yes and because it's not an either horror situation, many people will assume that I'm extroverted when they first meet me. I'm actually an outgoing introvert. I love to show up in this capacity. I love having really good, meaningful conversations. I like meeting new people, and then I like going home and binge watching Netflix and lying on the couch. And I'm not shy about articulating that I am a whole human being, and I'm allowed to be both. It is a yes and situation, but everything that I do and every way that I show up in all of those circumstances are grounded in my personal brand, which has two feet very firmly planted in my values and who I am as a person. First, this takes us right full circle into our humanity and being people first, no matter what your goals are,
Amy Lynn Durham: okay, so what if someone hasn't figured out who they are yet in their business? Another part, right?
Shauna Van Mourik: I roll my eyes because I think, I think I subconsciously avoided that. When you said that sounds hard, that sounds like a lot of work. I am not the kind of person to sugarcoat it. It is a lot of work. It is uncovering your truths, uncovering who you are, what you want, what are your values. But the fact of the matter is, you can either put in the work now and get to where you're going in a determined amount of time, or you can not and just sit with where you're at if you're comfortable there. Hey, dude, do it. I am not going to sit here and tell somebody else how to live their life. But if you have specific goals, if you have ambitions beyond where you're at, this is a really important part of achieving those goals in a way that is sustainable and in alignment to who you are and how you want to get there.
Amy Lynn Durham: What are some of the things that your company helps people with when they're trying to explore options like this?
Shauna Van Mourik: Yeah, I actually really like to talk to people about how they're showing up in the world most of the time. They're coming to me, typically they are coaches, therapists and service based pros, primarily women, in a few cool dudes. They ask me about, how can it show up in a way that's aligned, in a way that's clear, in a way that's actually going to attract clients and convert them, but they also don't want to sell their soul, right? They don't want to be stuck on that hamster wheel. So a lot of times, I walk them through kind of this very rudimentary ideology, and then there's like a chart that we we walk through as well. And the ideology is what I'd like to share. And that is the idea that when you're showing up, you have these two My hands are going to be held out, and they are going to represent two circles in a Venn diagram. Okay, we've got on the one side. This is who you are. This is what you stand for. This is what you do. This is what lights you up, that brings you joy and and not just in what you do, but in how you do it. That's the first circle. That's that inner alignment, right? Your personal brand. On the other side, you've got your ideal market. These for entrepreneurs are typically their ideal prospects, their prospective clients. But if you're looking to accelerate your career, this could also look like, who are the people you need to speak to in order to get to where? You're going, this could be upper level management. This could be the CEO, for crying out, I'm aware, right? That's who it is, and that is who they are, what they do, what matters to them, and what lights them up, what do they love to consume, and how do they love to consume it? In the marketing point of view, that overlap in the middle that Venn diagram overlap. That's where you want to create from a marketing big M marketing point of view, you're writing your resume. You write it from there. So on your resume, you're not saying, I like to binge
watch NetFlix of of an evening, right? You're not putting that on your resume because that doesn't fit in the Venn diagram, even if it is in one circle. You're going to bridge the gap using that information in the middle. That's the same with your brand messaging. When you're showing up as an entrepreneur or business owner, or if you're supporting a bigger corporation, you want to live in that space, understanding your audience, your ideal client, from a place of authenticity and brand position that is rooted in your reality. It also will make you happier, just in all the things that you're doing, so you don't feel like you have to do what the gurus say. You're really rooted in what do you love and how do you love to share it with the world.
Amy Lynn Durham: Yeah, that's great for everyone listening that maybe wants to start thinking about this and and formulating some maybe thought leadership, or they feel passionate about a certain topic and they they feel inspired to maybe start posting a little bit more about that. What's one action that would really create impact that we could take away from this conversation today.
Shauna Van Mourik: Talk about it. Just talk about it. This is something that I've spoken to people about for a long, long time. We're always afraid to press record or to press post or to bring it up in conversation at dinner, even if you if it's burning a hole in your soul, talk about it, don't let it burn through the floor. That's my biggest push. If you're scared that maybe that's more of a reason to do it. You want to talk to somebody else who can help, who can help you push through it, because it can be hard, but having companions to support you as you talk about it can be equally empowering, but yeah, just talk about it. Yeah.
Amy Lynn Durham: I always say, do it messy. Because, yeah, you know, going back to the towards the beginning of our conversation, you talked about the sonder effect. You talked about how a post lives like three hours and then it's washed away. It's like, well, just try it, because it's not that. Let's not take ourselves so seriously, and let's do it messy. And if you're passionate about something, go for it and see what happens. That's what I want to say.
Shauna Van Mourik: So I have a pin that I wear on my lapel. Whenever I wear this I'm wearing a a blazer. Don't usually wear a blazer. And Blazers make me feel super quote, unquote, professional. And it is weird feeling, because I am super chill. I like having fun. I do everything with fun in mind or with learning and discovery, right? So whenever I wear this, I always my silly goose pen, and it's a goose, and he's white, he's got a little tie, and it says, Today I am a SERIOUS goose, and it makes me happy.
Amy Lynn Durham: Yes, very, very human, very connecting.
Shauna Van Mourik: Nobody's going to see the posts. Nobody's gonna remember the thing. It's that saying dance in the rain, right? Do just do the thing. Nobody cares. Or Dr Seuss, those who mind don't matter. Those who matter don't mind.
Amy Lynn Durham: Yeah, yeah. And if, if you truly could help somebody else and make an impact, I think it's really important that we get out of our own way. One of my fellow edge Walker facilitator colleagues, Susan Furness, she says we are content obese and information starved. So I know that there's a lot of amazing humans that could contribute to a much better world out there, like my dear friend. I'm thinking of my friend Aaron tabako, who just released his beautiful podcast, circles edges, things like that. So I guess for me, the overall call from this conversation is, if you feel like you want to share an important message, get out of your own way and do it messy. And on that note, I'm going to pull an edge Walker card, because you're such an edge Walker, Shauna, so I'm going to pull from the edgewalker card deck. Edgewalkers look to the future with a creative, positive visualization. They're the bridge builders and the change makers. Of the world. And there's five skills and five qualities. So I'm going to pull a card for everybody listening and for us today, give us an edge Walker message. Ooh, we got manifesting. So one of the skills of an edge Walker is manifesting, the ability to take a thought, idea or vision and to take concrete, practical steps to bring it into being. We've literally talked about this throughout the whole thing, taking the ability to take a thought, idea or vision and to take concrete practical steps to bring it into being. My hope is that this conversation, if someone is listening, kind of sparked like, Ooh, what could I What concrete practical steps can I take to bring this idea I've been sitting on into being right? So check out. Oh gosh, this is one of my favorite art pieces from the deck, and it's a group of people talking about manifesting something into reality, and everything's kind of floating above them that's about to come into the space. So our message for the week is, I share my vision in such a
way that others resonate and connect with it and want to co create. Can you believe it from this conversation, that's exactly what we're talking about. I share my vision in such a way that others resonate and connect with it and want to co create. That is literally what we were pulling through this whole conversation. How do we do that? And so claiming it? I have to say this again, I share my vision in such a way that others resonate and connect with it and want to co create. And this edge Walker card deck is available on create magic@work.net in the shop. So anyway, that was amazing magic to have at the end of this conversation. Yeah, Shauna,
Shauna Van Mourik: no, if anybody's a little hippie, woo, woo, like I am, I'm a manifester in human design.
Unknown: So that's probably why we pulled more
Amy Lynn Durham: amazing, the amazing synchronicities that come from the magic of these conversations, right? Even when we're doing it messy. Yeah. So good, so good. If people want to connect with you more and learn about your work and maybe get your help in sort of starting out and helping them share their vision in a way that others can resonate and connect with it. How can they connect with you?
Shauna Van Mourik: Your best bet would be my website. That's Shawna lee.com, I'll spell it out because my name is a little bit funny, S, H, A, u n, a, l, e, i, G, H, com. You can also find me on almost every platform, except for one, which is the big X, because I have no desire to go on there. But every other platform, you can probably find me there under my name or my business name, s, L, E, marketing confidence and I love to chat. So if you've got something cool going on in that brain of yours, please talk about it, like I said, amazing.
Amy Lynn Durham: Yeah. We'll put the link in the in the show notes too, so people can click on it if they want to, if they're in this space where, like, oh, I want to bring my vision to life. I want to start building this. I want to, yeah, reach out to Shauna and Shauna, thanks for coming on create magic at work, and talking about this topic and getting us all thinking about it. I really appreciate it. Thank you.
Shauna Van Mourik: Thank you for having me. It's been a joy. I
Amy Lynn Durham: want to thank each and every one of you for being here as we explore what it really means to create magic at work. If this conversation resonated with you, or if someone came to mind while you were listening, share the episode with them. Help others who are looking for these types of conversations, find us and don't forget to follow, subscribe, rate and review so you're notified when the next episode airs until next time. Keep edge walking, keep challenging the way things have always been done, and keep making magic at work. You