Steve Palmer [00:00:00]:

Lawyer Talk Off The Record on the air. They Don't Teach You That In Law School edition. We are gonna we'll go a couple a couple things first. Check us out at lawyertalkpodcast.com. Check us out on the socials. If you got a question, comment, you can send it there. And, without further ado, we'll jump into this because, we got to kicking around a topic here at the table. And, Bella, you had a great question.

Steve Palmer [00:00:22]:

I'll just let you pose it.

Bella Mata [00:00:24]:

So what's been circling on social media is that Diddy's attorney petitioned the court to step down from the case. And he didn't give, like, specific reasons on why they said it was protected by attorney client privilege, but he said under no circumstances can I defend him? So my question was kinda just, like, how that works? Can the court deny that and say, like, you have to continue Yeah. Great. Him? I don't

Steve Palmer [00:00:51]:

Great questions. I mean, first things first, are we gonna call him Diddy, or are we gonna call him Combs? Because isn't his name Sean Combs?

Bella Mata [00:00:58]:

Yeah. It's Sean Combs.

Steve Palmer [00:00:58]:

Like, are they are when he comes to court, the court recognizes p Diddy at the table, or are they saying a court? Anyway, I'd make a dumb joke. So, I I think there is a, there's a team of lawyers. So this isn't the only attorney that is representing Diddy. There are probably I guess, he probably got a half a dozen people on his team. So we don't know, exactly what his problem is with p Diddy. I understand this gentleman is also represent you said Osama bin Laden, you think?

Bella Mata [00:01:26]:

That's what I heard.

Steve Palmer [00:01:27]:

So clearly, he's okay with representing people who are,

Troy Hendrickson [00:01:30]:

social media can't be wrong.

Steve Palmer [00:01:30]:

Yeah. We should maybe be fair

Troy Hendrickson [00:01:32]:

to that.

Steve Palmer [00:01:33]:

So let's start with that. Like, are we as lawyers, particularly criminal defense lawyers, where do you draw the line? Where's the where's the Overton window closed for you on who you're gonna represent, who you're not gonna represent? Because that's really you know, that's the heart of the question.

Troy Hendrickson [00:01:46]:

I in my head, I'm thinking because of privilege. I understand there's, like, not the obligation, but, like, you I mean, you have to in my head, I feel like your client can tell you almost anything. And in my head, there's a privilege. And so I would say almost every situation, unless he's planning to do more, then it's like, hey. I gotta we gotta stop something here. That's the only time I can imagine it. That's just off the top of my head. Yep.

Steve Palmer [00:02:10]:

No. I gotcha. I haven't taken ethics yet. Well, forget about ethics. I'm talking about morality. Oh, man. Those are two different things.

Troy Hendrickson [00:02:16]:

Yes. Okay. Morality, I mean Or is there

Steve Palmer [00:02:19]:

a case you wouldn't take?

Bella Mata [00:02:21]:

Did he?

Steve Palmer [00:02:23]:

That's right. So look. According to LeBron James, you know, I ain't no party. Didi. I know attorneys who would not represent somebody accused of, sexually abusing a child.

Bella Mata [00:02:34]:

Mhmm.

Steve Palmer [00:02:34]:

I've done that. I've represented plenty of people accused. Both people I think that are innocent, both people I think may not be innocent. You know, for all sorts of reasons, I'll I'll I'll do that for the system. And, you know, we can talk the logic of that and how I sleep at night with that. But there there is a there there is a way. I do. But there may be cases you that that hit home to me in a certain way, and I can't think of one, but hit home to me in a certain way that I just wouldn't do it.

Steve Palmer [00:02:59]:

I mean, I've been called on I've I've had contact with some pretty significant political figures, and somebody working for me at the time was like, do you really gonna do do you gonna take that if they hire you? I'm like, yeah. Hell, yes. I am. As my buddy, as a good friend of mine all once said, it's like we do things as criminal defense lawyers and maybe as humans for money, cause, and ego. And not always like, sometimes one thing is more important than the other in a certain case, but money cause an ego. So sometimes my ego is in the way, and I I just I wanna be I want the case. Sometimes I need the money, so I'll take the case even though it's like, yeah, I don't care about this case. And then sometimes it's for the cause where somebody I feel like is getting a shaft or it's something I really believe in, I'll go do it.

Steve Palmer [00:03:44]:

I've argued in the high supreme court on a constitutional issue for no money because I I believed in the the cause. So, you know, there but there are cases I can contemplate probably where you'd say, you know, maybe a a p Diddy's, you know, rape parties or whatever the hell he was doing. I could see where that might be aligned for somebody that they wouldn't wanna they'd say, I don't wanna do with that guy. I don't wanna defend a guy like that. Fair enough. Our duty is not to defend everybody. I learned the ethics this way in sort of a simplified way. A lawyer is not a bus.

Steve Palmer [00:04:11]:

We don't have to stop at every stop and pick everybody up. You can just keep going right by it and say, no. Thanks. I'm not gonna do it. And we're supposed to because if you can't provide the kind of representation that somebody needs because you're you're clouded by your judgment of the person as an individual or maybe the crime they allegedly committed, he's not getting the right defense. It's okay. Somebody else can do it.

Troy Hendrickson [00:04:34]:

Mhmm. I I do power washing. That's, like, my side gig. Sorry. Law school's hard. Right? You know, Bill's got The

Steve Palmer [00:04:41]:

attorney power washer.

Troy Hendrickson [00:04:42]:

Yeah. Yeah. The attorney power washer. And my philosophy has always been if I don't wanna do the job, I just charge a lot more to the point they're gonna say no. And then in in my head, if they say yes, now I'm getting paid way too much to do it.

Steve Palmer [00:04:54]:

So you've got cause, money, and ego. Right? What I'm saying,

Troy Hendrickson [00:04:57]:

like, a child rape case, like, maybe you don't wanna do that. Totally understandable. Okay. Well, why don't you just double your fee? And then

Steve Palmer [00:05:03]:

Mhmm. Well, here's here's the problem. Because if you're if you don't wanna do it and this happens all the time. Right? So we're gonna give the we're gonna quote the kind of fee that they're not gonna say yes to, and then they say yes, and you're like, oh, crap. And I don't do that anymore. The fee is the fee. One, because I'm not sure it's ethical to do that. And two, because I'm either gonna say no to the case or I'm gonna take it.

Steve Palmer [00:05:24]:

That's that.

Troy Hendrickson [00:05:25]:

I'm an unethical power washer?

Steve Palmer [00:05:27]:

Oh, you can do it in the power washing room. Okay. But the reason the reason I question that in what we do is because there's a there's something in our going off in your brain. Your spidey sense is telling you, you're not the right lawyer for this case. You have a problem with this on some level, and and I guess you would have to analyze internally what the problem is. If the problem may be that you're busy. And, you know, we you and I, Troy, have worked on a case like that where somebody came in and said, look, I have a deadline next week for a brief. It's gonna be, you know, 30 pages of complex writing and research.

Steve Palmer [00:06:01]:

Can you do it? And I'm looking at my calendar. I'm thinking, oh, I got that that that and that. I'm gonna have to continue that move that, do this, do this. You know, it's like or I'm gonna be burning the midnight oil for eight days straight getting this done. Then I can charge more because I you know, I and I I was honest about it. I was like, look. I got a deadline next week. I gotta charge you more because now I'm working twenty hours a day to get this thing done for you.

Steve Palmer [00:06:23]:

I think that's fair. But let's say there's plenty of time and that's not the constraint, but I just don't like the SOB. So I'm gonna charge a huge fee. I'm gonna say, yeah, if he pays it maybe I'll learn to like him. It's like marrying the wrong woman. Right? It's not gonna work.

Troy Hendrickson [00:06:37]:

Well, I don't I don't know yet about that.

Steve Palmer [00:06:39]:

It could be the greatest sex in the world and it's still not gonna work. I hope I don't run into that problem. That may be a bad analogy. Don't have sex with your clients. It's unethical. But you get the point. It's like if you if you're reticent to take a case then maybe you shouldn't take the case if the resident Reddit Redditasensee? You get it. If the reservation is because of, some moral or internal dilemma you have with the cause or the person or the crime.

Steve Palmer [00:07:08]:

Mhmm. And I'm not saying that's what happened to Rico here. So I I I can't talk about him him or what why he made his decision, but I I've been in this position before where and it was recently, in fact. I had to go to, you know, I've been in actually, many times, I've had to go to a court and say, judge, I I have entered this case. I'm representing this client accused of this crime. And I've been on the case for a while. Now I have to withdraw. I'm filing a motion to withdraw, and I'm asking the court to allow me off the case.

Steve Palmer [00:07:40]:

And you have to get permission and an order to do that. You don't automatically get off the case. The judge has to let you off. And the prime reason most lawyers do this is for money. Client says, I'll pay you to show up and do my trial. Client doesn't pay you to show up and do the trial. Judge, I haven't been paid. He's promised to pay me a reasonable fee.

Steve Palmer [00:07:57]:

He's reneged on his promise and I'm working for free. Now I'm telling you, I had a case in a county west of here. It was a misdemeanor long time ago and learned my lesson. I filed that motion and the judge said, no. You have to try the case. So there I am. Stuff. There I am.

Steve Palmer [00:08:14]:

Stuff there. Penniless having to try a case. Worse yet, I won the damn thing. I won the damn thing. You learned a lesson

Troy Hendrickson [00:08:24]:

on pro bono. That's what you learned.

Steve Palmer [00:08:27]:

Because here's how I operate. I I've tried some of the biggest cases of my career for almost nothing, and I have tried some of the biggest cases of my career and some of the littlest cases for lots of money. It it and all it's on me. You know, my clients stiffed me. I didn't get paid, but I'm doing it. I said I would do it. I said it to the court. I'll do it, and I'm gonna tackle that beast and get it done.

Steve Palmer [00:08:49]:

So money is the first reason or mostly the reason that people withdraw. I don't think that's what's going on here with Rico, though. I think there's something else. Another sometimes you run into conflict. Troy, you brought something up where your client has disclosed, like, look, maybe maybe let's talk hypothetical. You're representing the worst of the worst, kidnapper, and he tells you, by the way, I got my guy out there. He's about to go kidnap somebody else. I'm not gonna tell you who he is or what he's doing, but he's gonna do it.

Steve Palmer [00:09:15]:

You're gonna see it on the news after the fact. You'd be like, f you, dude. F you for saying that to me. I can't represent you anymore. I hate you. It's it's tainted my ability to be objective in this case now. So go screw yourself, judge. I have a problem.

Steve Palmer [00:09:31]:

Now judge is gonna say, what's your problem? And you're gonna say, I can't tell you. It's privileged.

Troy Hendrickson [00:09:36]:

You can't say that? You can't go up to judge, but, hey, my guy's got like, knows where the kid is or So

Steve Palmer [00:09:42]:

we did an episode on on attorney client privilege. Now this is one of those where I think you're permitted and I've already talked to our ethics expert, he's gonna do a show with us on some of the stuff.

Troy Hendrickson [00:09:50]:

Okay.

Steve Palmer [00:09:50]:

But, this is one of those where you may be permitted to divulge in information but you can't be compelled to divulge in information. And now now you're in this weird dilemma. But let's let's take that out of the equation. It's something else he told you you just don't like.

Troy Hendrickson [00:10:03]:

Mhmm.

Steve Palmer [00:10:03]:

Maybe he threatened you or maybe who knows?

Troy Hendrickson [00:10:05]:

He's like the diddy parties are still going on. They're still They're on a secret

Steve Palmer [00:10:08]:

He he says, look. Your wife was there, by the way. Oh. Nanana. Now what do you do? Judge, I gotta withdraw. Why? Can't tell you. All I can tell you is it's significant conflict of interest. I can't, ethically, morally, and personally represent this guy.

Steve Palmer [00:10:30]:

And most of the time, the judge will let you off the case. Most of the time. There are circumstances where you may have to go put something on the record in camera, meaning, outside anybody else's knowledge that gets sealed. But even then, that gets dangerous. Most of the time for situations, if I pause it to the judge, tell the judge, I've got an ethical dilemma on this case that I can't disclose. But I'm telling you professionally, judge, I am compromised. I can't do it. Most of the time, judge will let you off.

Steve Palmer [00:11:01]:

If it's for money, he doesn't have to. Now there are conflicts of interest that just prevent you from rep like, if

Troy Hendrickson [00:11:09]:

if I could be a witness in a case, for instance,

Steve Palmer [00:11:09]:

I can't be the lawyer. I just can't. If I represented one of the witnesses in the case, I can't be. It's conflict of interest. I can't cross examine my own client. Those things are clear conflicts, and sometimes I've had to tell judge, judge, I have a conflict of interest here. I can't disclose what it is, but I can tell you professionally, I'm not permitted under the rules to represent this guy any longer. And maybe that's what happened here.

Steve Palmer [00:11:32]:

I suspect reading the story that I did, another problem emerged. And that is there's a bunch of lawyers, a team. And maybe you had too many cooks in the kitchen. And I I saw that somebody wants to raise an issue about, this being a race based prosecution. Somebody else's I mean, I I don't know if that's valid or not. I have no idea. But if you're

Bella Mata [00:11:53]:

She already kind of said that in the TMZ

Steve Palmer [00:11:56]:

Yeah. Interview. There there was something like that going on. And maybe your lawyer said, look, I don't think that's the case here. I think this involves something else. I don't think that's a valid line of defense. I don't wanna pursue that. Mhmm.

Steve Palmer [00:12:05]:

But the other lawyers do. So you can say, look. You guys go go forth and prosper. Have fun. I'm out. And that may be the case. It may be that my client wants me to, press a defense that I don't agree with.

Troy Hendrickson [00:12:18]:

Mhmm.

Steve Palmer [00:12:19]:

Maybe my client has confessed to me that he did something, but then he says, I'm gonna go on the wit I wanna testify and lie Mhmm. And say I didn't do it. You know, these all pose valid, legitimate reasons why we would withdraw from a case. And most of the time, the judge not only can or will let you up, but has to.

Bella Mata [00:12:36]:

I know Diddy well, I guess I don't know. But I heard at the party? I heard Diddy, he really wants to go to trial. He's determined to go to trial. So would the judge let the attorney off if maybe they there was so much evidence against him that he knows that they wouldn't win if they

Steve Palmer [00:12:53]:

went to trial.

Bella Mata [00:12:53]:

And, like, did he just

Troy Hendrickson [00:12:55]:

No. Would that be a

Bella Mata [00:12:56]:

fair reason?

Steve Palmer [00:12:57]:

Or So what I think what you're saying is, look, there's overwhelming evidence. My client won't plead guilty. He wants to go to trial. Judge, I just can't agree with that decision. You're getting into that realm. It's like the judge is gonna say, well, give me your t give me your TS card. My do they still my my English teacher in, was an army guy. And he said, yeah.

Steve Palmer [00:13:15]:

They said give me your TS card, your tough shit card. I'll punch it for you. He used to say So they just said, do not say that. I say, mister mister merchant, I I don't I need more time. Well, give me your TS card. I'll punch it for you. What's that mean? It means you gotta hand it in anyway. So, like, yeah.

Steve Palmer [00:13:29]:

You gotta do the judge may just say, look. I get it, man. Do your damn job. You know, I had a good friend who's this is crazy, but, you know, his family dog passed away unexpectedly, and he had he was in the like, on the verge of starting a trial. He's like, judge, I I this is is I can't do it. You know, my my kids are everybody's, like, in in my life's in chaos. I can't focus on this. Judge says, give me your TS card.

Steve Palmer [00:13:55]:

Try the case anyway. You know, be a big boy. And, you know, at some point, the judge goes too far there. You know, you can't say, like, judge, I'm you put on the record, judge, I'm doing the best I can here, but I'm telling you right now on behalf of my client, I can't concentrate. I'm not focused on this. He's not getting my best. That that's how I handle it. Like, this man deserves effective assistance of counsel.

Steve Palmer [00:14:14]:

I'm not effective right now. And I'm telling him and I'm telling you on the record.

Troy Hendrickson [00:14:18]:

And the court of appeals will be like, it was a trial strategy. The dog, he just used it. Yeah. They'll they'll find a way.

Steve Palmer [00:14:22]:

They'll find a way to hose

Troy Hendrickson [00:14:23]:

you. Yeah.

Steve Palmer [00:14:24]:

So there's all sorts of reasons why Rico may want off the case, and they might be legitimate. They might be personal. He might just not like Diddy. He might not like the other lawyers. It might be that he's his check bounced. I don't know. So, look, this is gonna be a great trial. If if he's gonna trial on this, this is gonna be I you know, I what was the other guy? The, the producer? Forget his name.

Steve Palmer [00:14:45]:

I'm terrible.

Troy Hendrickson [00:14:47]:

Oh, there's something with all the girls. Mhmm.

Steve Palmer [00:14:50]:

Oh, shoot. Yeah. That that

Troy Hendrickson [00:14:51]:

case whenever in women in law too. Yeah.

Steve Palmer [00:14:53]:

That that case that case had its fanfare and it it Bigger bigger guy. Yeah. I'm forgetting his name. Henry?

Bella Mata [00:15:01]:

Yeah. Weinstein?

Troy Hendrickson [00:15:02]:

Weinstein. Yes.

Steve Palmer [00:15:03]:

Yeah. Harvey Harvey Weinstein. Yeah. Yeah. Harvey. Yeah. So that guy, you know, that that's a similar type of case. It got some sensation for a while, but it quickly, you know, he was summarily convicted and that's that.

Steve Palmer [00:15:14]:

But we we did an episode earlier today about this too about the sensationalism of cases and p d is gonna be a sensationalized case, you know, it's gonna be all over and if they play the race car that's gonna make it a big deal. And it might be true. Maybe there's some racial motive for it. I have no idea. But, I suspect that there's plenty of evidence. We'll see. I feel like if the

Troy Hendrickson [00:15:32]:

feds are involved Yeah.

Bella Mata [00:15:33]:

I mean,

Troy Hendrickson [00:15:33]:

I feel like they don't be

Steve Palmer [00:15:35]:

involved unless there's, like, unless they got lost. Yeah. Maybe. We'll see. Anyway, this is, Lawyer Talk Off the Record. They don't teach you that in law school series with Isabelle Amada. Isabelle, everybody like to call you Isabelle. Bella Amada and Troy Hendrickson.

Steve Palmer [00:15:50]:

Hendrickson. Check us out. We've got lots of cool topics we're covering. Check out our other series too. We've got a Q and A. We've got, a breakdown. We started a new one called What's the Appeal? We're talking about the appellate process, DUIs. DUIs.

Steve Palmer [00:16:01]:

Lots of stuff going on. LawyerTalkpodcast.com, on the socials, everywhere. We are off the record on the air. Till next week.