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Intro:
Hey folks, it's Marvin Cash, the host of the Articulate Fly.

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Intro:
On this episode, I'm joined by my friend Jack Dennis. I've been fortunate to

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Intro:
get to know and spend time with Jack.

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Intro:
He not only makes you a better fisherman, but a better person.

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Intro:
On this episode, he generously shares his stories of his friendship with Lee Wolf.

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Intro:
Jack is quite the storyteller, and I think you're really going to enjoy this

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Intro:
one. It's a great peek inside a special time in American fly fishing.

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Intro:
But before we get to the interview, just a couple of housekeeping items.

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Intro:
If you like the podcast, please tell a friend, and please subscribe and leave

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Intro:
us a rating or review in the podcatcher of your choice. It really helps us out.

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Intro:
And we're excited to partner with our friends at Jesse Brown's to bring the

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Intro:
Chocolate Factory to Charlotte on May 4th.

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Intro:
Blaine will be teaching private tying classes, discussing predator and prey,

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Intro:
and sharing his favorite rod, reel, and line combos.

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Intro:
Stay tuned on social media for more details.

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Intro:
Now, on to our interview.

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Marvin:
Well, Jack, welcome to the Articulate Fly.

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Jack:
Like the name.

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Marvin:
Thanks. I'm looking forward to our conversation. I really enjoy the fact we've

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Marvin:
sort of become friends over the phone and kind of met through some fly fishing friends.

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Marvin:
And, you know, we've kind of kicked around this idea, you know,

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Marvin:
you have so much knowledge of the sport and the history of the sport that it'd

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Marvin:
be kind of interesting to bring you on periodically to kind of talk about,

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Marvin:
you know, fly fishing legends.

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Marvin:
And we thought we would start with Lee Wolfe. And, you know,

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Marvin:
I guess, Jack, the first question is, when did you first meet Lee?

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Jack:
Well, it was interesting. I met him kind of by accident. The first time I feel

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Jack:
like I really met him was my father, who never went to any games that I played, never went.

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Jack:
The only thing he liked to do was go occasionally to the movies.

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Jack:
And all of a sudden, he said, look, we're going to go see The Longest Day.

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Jack:
And it did very few. I went fishing with him and all the things that dads do.

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Jack:
Do, but he was a test pilot before the war and then went through pretty rough flying during the war,

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Jack:
and he never talked about it, so I got no idea until he died that he had been

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Jack:
shot down during D-Day, and he was able to fly the plane back to England,

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Jack:
and And so he wanted to see what it was like, as near as I could tell,

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Jack:
to see The Longest Day. Now, what that means is they had shorts.

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Jack:
They had the cartoon, then they had shorts. There were all different kinds of

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Jack:
shorts. But all of a sudden, there we were in a stream. We walked.

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Jack:
And it was the short, and it was beautifully filmed, and he had a six-foot rod,

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Jack:
and he caught this beautiful, probably close to 30 pounds, if you told me, Atlantic salmon.

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Jack:
And he released it. Now, you've got to realize that was in the 50s.

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Jack:
And, you know, releasing fish just wasn't in the—I mean, you caught it unless it was too small.

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Jack:
And, I mean, I was just fascinated. I said, right then, you know,

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Jack:
my father said nothing about it, and he was more interested in,

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Jack:
you know, the military part, what he flew over to see.

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Jack:
So I had that in the back of the mind. This is what I want to do.

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Jack:
I don't want to fly airplanes like my father. I mean, I had a chance to go to

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Jack:
the Air Academy, and he went to the very first Air Academy, and he pushed me

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Jack:
on that vision of Lee Wolf landing that fish.

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Jack:
Well, as it turned out, I had to get in the military one way or another with

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Jack:
the Vietnam War going on in 66.

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Jack:
I'm in college, and I wanted to keep on. They said, oh, join the reserves.

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Jack:
You'll be able to finish college, and then you can go and do your military service.

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Jack:
Well, I joined, and six months later, they called the unit up for duty.

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Jack:
And i had made the friendship of

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Jack:
randall kaufman who was a

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Jack:
young kid that uh we kind

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Jack:
of got to know each other we went in the

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Jack:
wind rivers together anyway when i got out of the military i called him i said

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Jack:
you know i i tried to work in california i was an artist uh in the military

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Jack:
which was kind of an interesting fun job instead of going to the jungles of vietnam but uh,

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Jack:
You know, I did my duty, then I went into reserve.

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Jack:
But I said to Randall, go to Wyoming to see if we can start a business.

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Jack:
He was 18, and I was 19, and we went to Jackson Hole in 1967,

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Jack:
and the generation of fly fishing was having one of their first conclaves,

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Jack:
their first really big conclave.

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Jack:
And we decided, gosh, what do you got to do to learn?

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Jack:
And he was in Southern California, and that was where the hotbed of these clubs

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Jack:
started. It spread through Oregon, actually started in Oregon,

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Jack:
but California had the Jews.

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Jack:
So all of a sudden, Jackson was a really small town there.

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Jack:
This guy stopped me, and it was Bob Lewis who was given the task of getting

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Jack:
the guides for the Federation because they needed guys to take the celebrities fishing.

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Jack:
And I said, look, I don't have a boat. And he said, oh, I got a boat,

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Jack:
will you? Old military ramp, that's what everybody used, or no drip boat.

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Jack:
And he said, I'll just show up. And so I told my friends I'm going to row the boat.

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Jack:
So we all went to the big banquet barbecue they had, and the next day was taking fishing.

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Jack:
And we got a chance to meet a guy in the shop.

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Jack:
His name was Dennis Black, which would be one of the most influential fly fishermen ever.

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Jack:
And nobody knew who he was and

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Jack:
only a few people did but he changed fly

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Jack:
fishing forever because he started umpqua feather merchants in 1972 which randall

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Jack:
and i helped him when he came to friends now okay what does this tie into lee

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Jack:
wolf well the next day who do i get i don't know how they They picked him,

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Jack:
but I got Lee Wolfe and,

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Jack:
oh, gosh, terrible, but I remember the guy that was Arnold Gingrich,

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Jack:
who was the publisher of Esquire magazine,

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Jack:
which was a huge magazine back then. And.

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Jack:
Here was Lee Wolf. And all they did was needle each other.

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Jack:
I thought, why don't they care about the fishing? They told jokes.

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Jack:
They needled each other. Lee wasn't particularly a – he was a pretty serious guy.

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Jack:
But he did like Arnold Schumer. And it was pretty sharp.

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Jack:
And he just took it. And I thought, man, this guy's a cool dude.

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Jack:
You know, being in the – at that time, everything was rad and cool.

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Jack:
And we love the baseball boys.

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Jack:
I just hit it off with him.

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Jack:
And what I liked is he was thought outside of the box, which I did too.

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Jack:
We just hit it off. And he said, look, what are you doing?

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Jack:
He says, I don't know. We're going to start a fly tying operation.

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Jack:
He said, well, there's no money in that.

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Jack:
He said, you're going to be guiding? I said, oh, yes, I'm going to guide.

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Jack:
And I told him I just got out of the military. And he loved flying.

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Jack:
And, of course, we're in a flying family.

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Jack:
We got into lots of conversations about flying.

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Jack:
And he said, look, I'm going to be doing a show in Los Angeles.

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Jack:
And I want you to come and do a little booth and see if you can drum up some business.

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Jack:
And I'll get you introduced into the fly fishing world. It was in Los Angeles.

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Jack:
And I went. And I got a chance. He was building us. He was working for Garcia at the time.

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Jack:
The fin fishing world had the money.

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Jack:
And they were trying to get into the fly fishing business, using him as a way

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Jack:
to do it. He was designing reels.

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Jack:
And he designed a pretty good saltwater reel. I'd never gone saltwater fly fishing.

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Jack:
And we set up a trip, got a chance to catch Bonita. And it kind of started right there.

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Jack:
From that time, he had just married Joan, and she was absolutely wonderful.

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Jack:
And they just kind of took me under their wing.

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Jack:
And I kind of thought that sports shows seemed to be the way.

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Jack:
There was no fly fishing shows in those days.

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Jack:
They would have fly fishing companies at the shows. They were big sports shows

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Jack:
with boats and all the stuff. And, you know, I learned from him about how you do presentations.

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Jack:
And it kind of right there, we just kind of started keeping in touch.

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Jack:
One of the key things was Kurt Gowden.

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Jack:
And I met Kurt at a TU.

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Jack:
I have to admit, I was really, I loved the American sport. And Kirk was from Wyoming.

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Jack:
He was like a legendary sportscaster.

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Jack:
And, you know, being from my part of the world, you couldn't help but love his love of fly fishing.

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Jack:
And I thought, God, he needs to do a show in Jackson. That's where the beauty of Wyoming is.

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Jack:
And I said, I'm going to go down there and meet him and talk him into an American

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Jack:
sportsman show. I went, nobody.

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Jack:
You know, I just started flying flies, had a little shot.

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Jack:
Randall had figured that Jackson was too cold. He left after four months when

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Jack:
it got down to 40 below zero. He was back to California.

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Jack:
But he ended up in Oregon meeting up with Dennis Black, and that friendship

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Jack:
went on until Dennis died.

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Jack:
But what happened there is I had to borrow all the money.

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Jack:
It was like $150 to fly to Denver. I didn't know anybody, but I got an invitation

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Jack:
to go to the first Colorado Trout Unlimited meeting.

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Jack:
They had all the board members except for Bing Crosby there.

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Jack:
Kurt was there, all the people that started it.

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Jack:
And I didn't know anybody in there. You couldn't even get near Kurt.

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Jack:
There were so many people talking to him.

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Jack:
This one guy grabbed me and said, look, you need to meet Kurt Gowdy.

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Jack:
He pushed to the crowd. He was an old friend of Kurt and said,

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Jack:
I said, this is Jack Dennis. He's a guy in Jackson, Wyoming.

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Jack:
Jack Dennis. Jack Dennis. Never heard of you.

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Jack:
I said, you're a good guy? I said, I'm a good guy, and I grew up on the Snake River.

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Jack:
He says, well, you know, I'm thinking about doing an American sports show there.

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Jack:
He said, let's talk about it.

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Jack:
So Ernie Schwieber was giving a presentation. We were sitting down there,

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Jack:
and, of course, he was a big gun back in those days.

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Jack:
And it was funny because he said, look, I've heard enough of him.

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Jack:
Let's go. And he gathered up his friends, and we went to a restaurant where

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Jack:
Louis Armstrong was playing.

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Jack:
And I was with the president of Frontier and one of the cores.

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Jack:
It was like all the elite Denver was with him. They were supporting Trout Unlimited.

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Jack:
And he said, all he wanted to do was talk about fishing.

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Jack:
And, I mean, I'm just like way out of my element.

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Jack:
The good thing was that I'd been used to being around these kind of people because

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Jack:
my father, after the war, flew for Warner Brothers,

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Jack:
and he flew for the movie companies up and eventually for a baseball company.

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Jack:
So I was around people, and I knew how to keep my mouth shut,

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Jack:
which I don't know about now, but – and – and – and –.

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Jack:
Kurt, he just made it all happen. The governor of Wyoming, Stan Hathaway, had called.

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Jack:
But the nice thing is my grandfather, I'd spent every summer,

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Jack:
literally, of my life with my grandfather in Jackson.

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Jack:
And he had a big ranch there, and he was well-known to the community.

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Jack:
Our family had come from Philadelphia in 1916.

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Jack:
They didn't live in Jackson, but they had ranches, and they were from a well-to-do family.

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Jack:
So my grandfather had a really good reputation, as did my dad in Jackson,

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Jack:
and they got behind it, and we did this show.

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Jack:
And it turned out to be the most viewed and most popular show in the American sports business.

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Jack:
Very few of those shows ever would

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Jack:
qualify for a rerun. It was rerun three times, one after a Super Bowl.

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Jack:
And it was just a pleasure working with Curt.

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Jack:
And we had Phil Harris, who at that time was one of the neatest guys,

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Jack:
part of the Rat Pack, and just funny.

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Jack:
And it was an amazing time.

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Jack:
So where does Lee fit into this? Well, all he would talk about is stories about Lee.

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Jack:
And, of course, knowing that, and, you know, we didn't have cell phones in the

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Jack:
day, and long distance was really expensive.

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Jack:
But Curt, you know, he was doing well.

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Jack:
We'd get on the phone, and we'd have the double line and talk with Lee.

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Jack:
And I get to see Lee during the sports shows. And, of course...

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Jack:
Our friendship kept going, and when he was doing one of his books,

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Jack:
Lee Wolf on Flies, he called me and said, look, would you mind if I take your

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Jack:
concept for your book where you're holding the fly in front of your face?

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Jack:
I thought, why in the world would the best-known fly station in the world call

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Jack:
me to ask permission to do that?

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Jack:
I was, like, dumbfounded. and so it actually.

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Jack:
We were we were in Jackson when Kurt came every year he became like a second

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Jack:
father to me I went to the funerals rode into the hearse with the body with Kurt and you know,

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Jack:
but he was originally Lee had come to us I'll never forget this he called us

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Jack:
and my wife knew where I was fishing and we were having cocktails,

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Jack:
at this ranch that

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Jack:
nobody could fish and Kurt was a bit

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Jack:
of a Lee and Kurt were both they kind

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00:15:20,894 --> 00:15:24,414
Jack:
of stretched it and like this lady's rules

197
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Jack:
were that you had to use dry flies and

198
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Jack:
Kurt loved mudflat minnow and so

199
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Jack:
did Lee and so we were fishing there and

200
00:15:33,414 --> 00:15:36,534
Jack:
we came in for cocktails tails were sitting there in this lady's house

201
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Jack:
that she had uh charlie russell uh uh bronzes you know in a room look at there

202
00:15:45,634 --> 00:15:51,294
Jack:
here's a two hundred thousand dollar bronze next to you and we call as you get

203
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Jack:
old you gotta call some glee wolf.

204
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Jack:
And he was telling Kurt about, you need instant decision about what fly would

205
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Jack:
you pick if you only had one fly.

206
00:16:06,659 --> 00:16:12,939
Jack:
He said he was doing an article for Outdoor Live on if you only had one fly.

207
00:16:14,439 --> 00:16:18,919
Jack:
And so Kurt immediately said, hey, I'll pick the muddler middle.

208
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Jack:
Because I just caught three great big cutthroats on it.

209
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Jack:
And this lady's listening to and I thought, boy,

210
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Jack:
I better not I couldn't remember whether I had enough guts to say I was using,

211
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Jack:
because she looked at me and she looked at him and he was on the board of the.

212
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Jack:
Buffalo Bill Museum and she was in awe of Kirk and I thought,

213
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Jack:
man, is this guy going to get away with it?

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Jack:
And so when I got on the phone, she had said nothing to him.

215
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Jack:
And I said, mother mental.

216
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Jack:
At that time, it was because she'd used it as a dryer or wet.

217
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Jack:
And I don't know what he said to her, but he got away with it.

218
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Jack:
And so they're kind of where their lead was real interested And he always believed

219
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Jack:
that man was a competitive animal,

220
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Jack:
and he wrote a wonderful piece about the one-fly after he had a chance to experience it.

221
00:17:34,439 --> 00:17:36,439
Jack:
And that was probably the thing.

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Jack:
All of a sudden, and this would have been in the late 80s, we started the one-fly.

223
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Jack:
It took, you know, I mean, that's a whole program on how that started.

224
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Jack:
But we made it happen.

225
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Jack:
Thanks to Kurt. Kurt wanted to have a one-fly.

226
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Jack:
After hearing that, he had gone to the Lander one-shot antelope hunt,

227
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Jack:
which was a contest where you had one shell.

228
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Jack:
And there were teams, and the teams would consist sometimes of astronauts.

229
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Jack:
Ray Rogers, all kinds of people that like to hunt, go out and do this,

230
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Jack:
and it was ran by the Shoshone Indians,

231
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Jack:
and a lot of gala to it, and Kurt said, you know, why don't we have a one-fly

232
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Jack:
like that for fly fishing?

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Jack:
Well, you got to realize, this was like 1972 or three, and...

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00:18:37,332 --> 00:18:42,032
Jack:
You know, that fly fishing gig honestly wasn't that big. That was the starting

235
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Jack:
of the Fly Fisherman magazine.

236
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Jack:
And they said, well, you know, I don't care. We're starting it and we're doing it.

237
00:18:49,152 --> 00:18:53,872
Jack:
And we would go out and I would hire one of our guides.

238
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Jack:
And we'd go out and have our one fly. His first one was in Dillon, Montana.

239
00:19:01,072 --> 00:19:05,252
Jack:
And we kind of made up, Kurt made up the rules. And he would announce it like

240
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Jack:
he was doing the Super Bowl.

241
00:19:07,332 --> 00:19:12,292
Jack:
And he could imitate anybody's voice. And he had a pretty good Lee Wolf voice, too.

242
00:19:12,592 --> 00:19:15,432
Jack:
He would go back to Lee and say, Lee, what do you think of this?

243
00:19:15,632 --> 00:19:18,832
Jack:
And, hey, Howard Cosell, he had a perfect Howard Cosell.

244
00:19:19,292 --> 00:19:22,952
Jack:
And he would mimic him.

245
00:19:23,452 --> 00:19:27,412
Jack:
And people would go down the river and they'd hear that voice, which they knew.

246
00:19:27,672 --> 00:19:31,452
Jack:
And they'd turn around and look at this. And it was great fun.

247
00:19:32,072 --> 00:19:36,232
Jack:
And so one of the ones we were doing, and we do it every year.

248
00:19:36,232 --> 00:19:44,812
Jack:
And I want to say this about 1976 and, uh, Kurt was saying, I'm going to beat you this time.

249
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Jack:
And I said, he'd never beat me. And I was competitive. He was competitive.

250
00:19:49,932 --> 00:19:54,832
Jack:
And we went right down and we're getting to the landing and I'm up by one point.

251
00:19:55,012 --> 00:19:58,632
Jack:
I need to catch a fish over 10 inches to beat him.

252
00:19:58,952 --> 00:20:05,732
Jack:
And we're the guy do work for me to make sure I got it. He went down the right-hand

253
00:20:05,732 --> 00:20:09,472
Jack:
bank where the takeout was as far as he could go. Nothing.

254
00:20:10,292 --> 00:20:14,392
Jack:
And I'm reeling in and going across in the middle of the river.

255
00:20:14,452 --> 00:20:17,272
Jack:
The Snake River doesn't have fish in the middle of the river.

256
00:20:17,372 --> 00:20:20,032
Jack:
They're along the banks. All of a sudden, I have a fish on.

257
00:20:21,212 --> 00:20:25,172
Jack:
Trolling a fly. God, he just said, that's it. That's it.

258
00:20:25,832 --> 00:20:32,172
Jack:
He was so mad. He said, look, you've got to do a contest so I can fish against somebody besides you.

259
00:20:33,914 --> 00:20:38,534
Jack:
Well, we made it happen. It only took another 10 to 1986.

260
00:20:39,254 --> 00:20:42,334
Jack:
Now, what this brings in talking about Lee Wolf.

261
00:20:42,714 --> 00:20:47,694
Jack:
During that time, I'm going all over the country to lecture, do programs.

262
00:20:47,914 --> 00:20:54,634
Jack:
I did 40-something years of sports shows and TV shows and all kinds of things.

263
00:20:54,634 --> 00:21:05,474
Jack:
And I would visit Lee and Joan up on their place on the Beaverkill.

264
00:21:05,694 --> 00:21:10,354
Jack:
And it was really wonderful spending the time.

265
00:21:10,474 --> 00:21:15,974
Jack:
And he and I would talk about the one fly and he said, man, I'd love to fish

266
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Jack:
it. Joan said, so would I.

267
00:21:17,854 --> 00:21:23,934
Jack:
So in 1990, he was sent it up. Now that's four years into it. And Lee was so excited.

268
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Jack:
And we remember sitting there with him on the porch, and his Piper Cub was on

269
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Jack:
his little landing strip at his house.

270
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Jack:
And he was right bumped up against Mike Rockefeller, who was the son of Lawrence,

271
00:21:44,074 --> 00:21:46,874
Jack:
who really didn't spend much time in Jackson.

272
00:21:46,874 --> 00:21:52,154
Jack:
And the Rockefeller family, my grandfather was a banker with Chase Manhattan

273
00:21:52,154 --> 00:21:54,954
Jack:
and close friends with the Rockefellers.

274
00:21:55,014 --> 00:21:58,094
Jack:
So we kind of had a chance to be around them.

275
00:21:58,314 --> 00:22:03,234
Jack:
And Lee was saying, you know, talking about it, he says, you know,

276
00:22:03,254 --> 00:22:06,514
Jack:
I really would like to take you. I know you can fly, right?

277
00:22:06,674 --> 00:22:10,294
Jack:
I said, yeah, but I'm way out of the license stage. That's all right.

278
00:22:10,354 --> 00:22:14,874
Jack:
I'm going to go get my license. And you and I, in the spring,

279
00:22:15,234 --> 00:22:18,854
Jack:
we're going to both fly, and we're going to go to my old lodge.

280
00:22:18,934 --> 00:22:23,634
Jack:
And I said, I think it would be a fun thing to do with you.

281
00:22:23,974 --> 00:22:29,774
Jack:
And during that time, we started talking about, I'd come up with an idea of

282
00:22:29,774 --> 00:22:34,414
Jack:
a fly, which I call the Parallel.

283
00:22:35,074 --> 00:22:40,174
Jack:
We had been experimenting. We both thought, what a wonderful fly the wolf pattern

284
00:22:40,174 --> 00:22:45,434
Jack:
is, but they just don't ride low enough on the surface to match mayflies.

285
00:22:45,594 --> 00:22:53,434
Jack:
He had tied the original wolf, which was a white wolf, to imitate big mayflies of Canada. And...

286
00:22:56,696 --> 00:23:03,256
Jack:
He had changed, actually, the Royal Whelp, as we know it, really got popularized by Dan Bailey.

287
00:23:03,616 --> 00:23:07,736
Jack:
And his next fly was the Gray Wolf. But we started talking about it,

288
00:23:07,756 --> 00:23:14,156
Jack:
and I said, you know, I've been working on trying to get a parachute double wing.

289
00:23:14,336 --> 00:23:18,956
Jack:
It would be more stable in the water. It would float close to the surface.

290
00:23:19,796 --> 00:23:24,976
Jack:
It would be really good in slow-moving water. And that's where he said he used

291
00:23:24,976 --> 00:23:27,476
Jack:
to cut the hackle off of a lot of his flies.

292
00:23:27,596 --> 00:23:32,256
Jack:
He would tie the flies on the bank with his hands. He'd have a little packet

293
00:23:32,256 --> 00:23:35,576
Jack:
with him if he wanted to change flies.

294
00:23:36,276 --> 00:23:42,116
Jack:
Lee would never say that he was an accomplished tier, but he knew how to tie

295
00:23:42,116 --> 00:23:47,216
Jack:
what he needed, and he had enough fly tying friends he never lacked for flies.

296
00:23:47,216 --> 00:23:50,376
Jack:
So we we discussed this

297
00:23:50,376 --> 00:23:53,416
Jack:
and he was working on plastic things pretty interesting

298
00:23:53,416 --> 00:23:56,816
Jack:
he was taking plastic and taking like a

299
00:23:56,816 --> 00:24:01,436
Jack:
squirrel stacked squirrel and sticking it in the plastic it would dry it would

300
00:24:01,436 --> 00:24:06,896
Jack:
be permanent he'd wrap brown hackle around the uh the post he'd make a plastic

301
00:24:06,896 --> 00:24:13,916
Jack:
post and he was working on trying to get a post up that would be a y if you can envision a y.

302
00:24:15,756 --> 00:24:20,836
Jack:
And I said, the problem is I can't go, the threads just, you have to use so

303
00:24:20,836 --> 00:24:24,076
Jack:
much thread to do this. You've got to build posts, then you've got to divide the wing.

304
00:24:24,816 --> 00:24:30,876
Jack:
The threads were just too big. A 6-0 thread just wouldn't do it, even to a 10 or a 12.

305
00:24:31,916 --> 00:24:37,496
Jack:
But it took the development of the threads from deep boy down to an 8-0 thread

306
00:24:37,496 --> 00:24:40,016
Jack:
that we could take it smaller. That changed everything. thing.

307
00:24:40,336 --> 00:24:48,456
Jack:
Unfortunately, you know, Lee didn't get to see the completed fly, but he knew about it.

308
00:24:48,916 --> 00:24:56,176
Jack:
And he was so excited. I ended up writing several articles for books on the whole process.

309
00:24:56,596 --> 00:25:00,356
Jack:
And it was really funny because when Joan read it, she called me on the phone

310
00:25:00,356 --> 00:25:03,996
Jack:
and said, you know, I learned things about Lee that I didn't know.

311
00:25:04,596 --> 00:25:08,956
Jack:
Because he would tell me things about his life life that he,

312
00:25:09,016 --> 00:25:13,876
Jack:
I don't think he would discuss with his wife. He said he was a terrible husband.

313
00:25:14,236 --> 00:25:20,276
Jack:
Joan teamed him and all kinds of interesting things, but he was a thinker.

314
00:25:20,736 --> 00:25:26,296
Jack:
And as Joan put it, he was a visionary. He was an idealist.

315
00:25:27,196 --> 00:25:32,136
Jack:
He was not a teacher. I'm the teacher. What he did was was inspire people.

316
00:25:32,516 --> 00:25:37,636
Jack:
He inspired me to be a guide. He inspired me to get better at fly tying.

317
00:25:37,976 --> 00:25:42,116
Jack:
He inspired me to learn to listen, to listen to his stories.

318
00:25:42,316 --> 00:25:47,956
Jack:
And you know, at seven, almost 77, they come to me and then they go away.

319
00:25:48,176 --> 00:25:49,616
Jack:
They come to me and go away.

320
00:25:53,173 --> 00:25:57,273
Jack:
I remember him telling me about how he invented the fly vest.

321
00:25:57,893 --> 00:26:00,013
Jack:
And I have this actually on film.

322
00:26:01,133 --> 00:26:08,173
Jack:
I have all kinds of archives of film on tape that are really interesting. But I have this one.

323
00:26:08,613 --> 00:26:12,193
Jack:
He's talking about, Kurt Gowdy asked him, he said.

324
00:26:15,273 --> 00:26:19,313
Jack:
Didn't you invent the fly vest? He says, oh, yeah. He says, it made sense. in.

325
00:26:19,793 --> 00:26:23,973
Jack:
Pockets to hold your flies and everything. He said, well, how'd you do it?

326
00:26:24,033 --> 00:26:26,913
Jack:
He says, well, I sewed it myself.

327
00:26:27,133 --> 00:26:32,053
Jack:
I went to Macy's and bought a sewing machine. He said, the directions were on it.

328
00:26:33,193 --> 00:26:40,113
Jack:
He said, I just did it. It just made sense. And of course, that vest is in the museum, the Catskills.

329
00:26:43,093 --> 00:26:50,273
Jack:
He was such an inspirer. He jumped in the river to prove that you could swim with waders on.

330
00:26:50,433 --> 00:26:55,953
Jack:
If you knew what you were doing, you were safe in waders if you prepared them right.

331
00:26:56,473 --> 00:27:01,213
Jack:
And he wasn't really, he told me, I wasn't really sure I was right, but I had to prove it.

332
00:27:02,953 --> 00:27:07,493
Jack:
And this was, I mean, he's the only fly fisherman, sorry Lefty Craig,

333
00:27:07,793 --> 00:27:14,953
Jack:
but he was the only fly fisherman who had a whole page in Newsweek magazine of his death.

334
00:27:15,313 --> 00:27:23,073
Jack:
I have a fabulous us and you write as the new york times wrote in one page the

335
00:27:23,073 --> 00:27:27,553
Jack:
life of woody and and so let's go back because there's so much to this one flight

336
00:27:27,553 --> 00:27:28,693
Jack:
so we're at the one flight.

337
00:27:29,718 --> 00:27:33,738
Jack:
And this is his first one. And we make sure, gosh, we've got to get some.

338
00:27:33,858 --> 00:27:40,738
Jack:
So we make sure it gets filmed. And that, of course, is in the film that I posted on my YouTube channel.

339
00:27:40,918 --> 00:27:44,378
Jack:
And I'm surprised how few people even were interested in it.

340
00:27:44,398 --> 00:27:49,598
Jack:
I go back and forth and wonder how many people are really interested in history.

341
00:27:49,718 --> 00:27:56,138
Jack:
But I look at the group Classic Twyfishers, and they've got over 25,000 people

342
00:27:56,138 --> 00:28:02,658
Jack:
that are interested, at least the history of the equipment and the flies and everything.

343
00:28:02,978 --> 00:28:09,298
Jack:
But I often wonder, is this generation going to look back like we did?

344
00:28:09,758 --> 00:28:16,218
Jack:
I look back on Lee, and my favorite book was a book called Flies by J.

345
00:28:16,278 --> 00:28:18,318
Jack:
Edson Leonard, which had letters

346
00:28:18,318 --> 00:28:27,598
Jack:
from Dan Bailey and every one of the fly tires from the 20s and before.

347
00:28:27,838 --> 00:28:37,438
Jack:
He published it in 1950 and it had fabulous letters about, he would ask them

348
00:28:37,438 --> 00:28:38,578
Jack:
to explain this pattern.

349
00:28:38,738 --> 00:28:42,538
Jack:
If you haven't seen this book, you really need to see it. There's a history

350
00:28:42,538 --> 00:28:43,938
Jack:
of fly fishing in this book.

351
00:28:44,298 --> 00:28:50,418
Jack:
Steelhead fishlings on the west coast, names that are embraced and blazed in

352
00:28:50,418 --> 00:28:52,618
Jack:
fly fishing history right there.

353
00:28:52,618 --> 00:28:59,818
Jack:
And I really was lucky to have got to meet him at a speaking engagement and

354
00:28:59,818 --> 00:29:05,078
Jack:
I asked him which was the best letter that was in there he said by far Bob Carmichael

355
00:29:05,078 --> 00:29:09,698
Jack:
from your Jackson home and it's just beautiful rewritten.

356
00:29:11,698 --> 00:29:17,598
Jack:
So we go back to Lee and the one he's fishing with Kurt Gowdy how could you

357
00:29:17,598 --> 00:29:20,658
Jack:
not do it little as they would know although I,

358
00:29:21,925 --> 00:29:26,025
Jack:
And they just had great dialogue. We got as much as we could on it.

359
00:29:26,105 --> 00:29:28,525
Jack:
And Chuck Yeager was there.

360
00:29:29,085 --> 00:29:37,405
Jack:
And Lee was telling me about his 80th birthday, being on a carrier, how he loved flying.

361
00:29:38,065 --> 00:29:42,125
Jack:
By the way, we were sitting there in his place, and he told me he wanted to

362
00:29:42,125 --> 00:29:49,885
Jack:
fly with the plane, and he was going to get qualified in the spring so we could do this trip.

363
00:29:49,885 --> 00:29:59,285
Jack:
We were sitting there and Joan served us some strawberries with sour cream and brown sugar.

364
00:30:00,185 --> 00:30:04,685
Jack:
And she brought in a glass of wine and we're sitting there looking down there.

365
00:30:04,745 --> 00:30:07,725
Jack:
And he says, you know, the greatest things in life start with F.

366
00:30:08,445 --> 00:30:16,985
Jack:
I said, yeah. He says, yeah, food, flying, fishing, and you can figure out what the other one is.

367
00:30:19,545 --> 00:30:22,925
Jack:
Because we're keeping this a family program.

368
00:30:25,065 --> 00:30:28,985
Jack:
I'll never forget that. And Joan goes, Lee, you're just, because she heard the

369
00:30:28,985 --> 00:30:30,245
Jack:
last word. She said, you're awful.

370
00:30:30,985 --> 00:30:35,345
Jack:
And she says, well, can you do better? And she hugged him and said, no.

371
00:30:35,985 --> 00:30:39,525
Jack:
Why do you think I married?

372
00:30:41,145 --> 00:30:47,325
Jack:
It was just, going back to the one fly, I went through all the things he did.

373
00:30:47,365 --> 00:30:51,485
Jack:
He sat down and talked with Chuck Yeager.

374
00:30:52,285 --> 00:30:57,985
Jack:
And he was his hero. And he had talked about being able to have his birthday

375
00:30:57,985 --> 00:31:04,605
Jack:
on the carrier and all the broke out with the MC.

376
00:31:04,865 --> 00:31:09,265
Jack:
And he just told me he couldn't have had a better life.

377
00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:17,740
Jack:
At that point, Joan's wife, or mother, who lived to a long age like Joan has, had gotten sick.

378
00:31:17,940 --> 00:31:20,680
Jack:
And she said, look, I've got to go back to New Jersey.

379
00:31:21,100 --> 00:31:23,840
Jack:
Lee's going to the fly tackle dealer. I know you're going.

380
00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:28,620
Jack:
And he said, can you take care of Lee's until I get back?

381
00:31:28,700 --> 00:31:36,600
Jack:
And then take him, if I don't get back, I'm taking him to Denver to the tackle show.

382
00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:43,920
Jack:
And so I spent two magical weeks with Lee fishing and talking that,

383
00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:47,000
Jack:
you know, I treasure to this day.

384
00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:52,580
Jack:
And the funny thing, this is Oliver owned this fabulous spring creek.

385
00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:57,800
Jack:
Actually, she had bought one of my family's properties.

386
00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:02,700
Jack:
She found out that I was from the Nears family, which all of a sudden I could

387
00:32:02,700 --> 00:32:04,200
Jack:
fish anytime on her property.

388
00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:07,760
Jack:
And I bought Lee Wolf. And I remember she's at now, you got to realize she's

389
00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:14,020
Jack:
in her eighties, he's 86 and she's watching him fish and he says, yeah, what a stud he is.

390
00:32:18,060 --> 00:32:23,080
Jack:
Yeah. It's just gal probably worth half a million. I mean, 500 million or more.

391
00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:29,360
Jack:
He said, I said, I'm sorry, Emily, but he's taken. He says, I know,

392
00:32:29,500 --> 00:32:32,400
Jack:
but by must be by a much younger woman.

393
00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:41,800
Jack:
So and by the way he got away with putting a nymph under his fly and she didn't say a word,

394
00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:50,340
Jack:
and uh i put a nymph under the fly and one of her workmen told her and i got

395
00:32:50,340 --> 00:32:54,740
Jack:
i got read the riot act for using a nymph on her property,

396
00:32:56,460 --> 00:33:00,480
Jack:
just depends on who you are that's the way life is in the world indeed.

397
00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:05,800
Marvin:
Do you have any other kind of particularly memorable fishing trips you took with Lee?

398
00:33:07,956 --> 00:33:12,616
Jack:
Well, you know, we did one on the South Fork.

399
00:33:12,836 --> 00:33:20,576
Jack:
And when I had the chance with Lee and Kurt, I was not going to let this go by.

400
00:33:22,736 --> 00:33:28,916
Jack:
Because Kurt said, I just got a feeling this is the last time Lee and I are going to see each other.

401
00:33:29,636 --> 00:33:33,596
Jack:
And they both were anxious to film. And we just went filming.

402
00:33:33,596 --> 00:33:39,616
Jack:
And I remember, you know, I'm in the building, I'm watching the whole thing.

403
00:33:39,996 --> 00:33:45,736
Jack:
And so a lot of mine was, oh, we'll get back to a memorable one.

404
00:33:45,736 --> 00:33:48,296
Jack:
Sorry, at this age, they come to me and they flash fly.

405
00:33:48,676 --> 00:33:52,536
Jack:
But anyway, he wanted to catch this one fish. And what he wanted to do,

406
00:33:52,696 --> 00:33:56,416
Jack:
we sat there and the camera was going, how much of this do I film?

407
00:33:56,536 --> 00:34:00,016
Jack:
I said, you know, just keep filming. We can always erase it.

408
00:34:00,236 --> 00:34:09,996
Jack:
Thank God for video. and this fish is rising over there and he refused to change the fly.

409
00:34:10,216 --> 00:34:15,776
Jack:
He turned around to the guide, Gary Wilman, who was probably one of the best

410
00:34:15,776 --> 00:34:17,296
Jack:
fishing guides I've ever had.

411
00:34:17,636 --> 00:34:21,676
Jack:
We called him the predator.

412
00:34:23,916 --> 00:34:27,896
Jack:
He was that kind of guy. And,

413
00:34:29,644 --> 00:34:35,944
Jack:
Wayne tried all these different techniques. Finally, he pushed the fly and the

414
00:34:35,944 --> 00:34:38,384
Jack:
fish took it. And this is after half an hour.

415
00:34:38,724 --> 00:34:42,944
Jack:
And the guy who was just dumbfounded, the guy, he said, yes,

416
00:34:43,124 --> 00:34:47,084
Jack:
all I had to do was figure it out. Because you can make fish.

417
00:34:50,304 --> 00:34:54,244
Jack:
And it was a good point. It was really a good point.

418
00:34:54,404 --> 00:35:01,384
Jack:
And it changed this guy's life. line he learned how to be more disciplined and

419
00:35:01,384 --> 00:35:08,624
Jack:
he said i would have never done that well the rest of his life he did that and

420
00:35:08,624 --> 00:35:13,124
Jack:
in the other situation we're fishing a spring creek and uh jones there,

421
00:35:13,964 --> 00:35:19,324
Jack:
and uh she notices i'm i'm fishing a two-way because you really like those light

422
00:35:19,324 --> 00:35:23,844
Jack:
rods and i I said, gentlemen, they just land so soft on the water.

423
00:35:24,864 --> 00:35:27,564
Jack:
And casting is everything. And if you're going to spook fish,

424
00:35:27,664 --> 00:35:33,304
Jack:
I learned that from starting out as a kid all by myself, fishing the hard water.

425
00:35:33,504 --> 00:35:36,264
Jack:
Everybody said, why don't you go to the snake? You can catch all the fish you

426
00:35:36,264 --> 00:35:38,324
Jack:
want on that. Why do you want to catch the hard fish?

427
00:35:38,764 --> 00:35:41,204
Jack:
I'd go on my hands and knees. I'd get defeated.

428
00:35:41,704 --> 00:35:49,744
Jack:
But I knew exactly what you had to do. The lighter you could present the fly,

429
00:35:49,944 --> 00:35:53,704
Jack:
presentation was everything, but in the casting makes the presentation.

430
00:35:54,284 --> 00:35:59,644
Jack:
And I learned about that. And so she was talking about, I was telling her how

431
00:35:59,644 --> 00:36:03,964
Jack:
the three weights were, you know, you can use a three weight anywhere in the world for trout,

432
00:36:04,824 --> 00:36:08,984
Jack:
you know, unless you got to throw great big streamers, but for normal trout

433
00:36:08,984 --> 00:36:11,324
Jack:
fishing. And she says, I really like that.

434
00:36:11,884 --> 00:36:17,224
Jack:
And Lee said, look, tell me how you both understand this. And tell me how you cast.

435
00:36:18,925 --> 00:36:25,725
Jack:
A two or three-way i was like what i'm going to show you how to cast it she says yeah,

436
00:36:26,345 --> 00:36:32,645
Jack:
you can always learn you don't have to be eight and five to stop learning and

437
00:36:32,645 --> 00:36:37,965
Jack:
i i told them the attributes of it and and they said well he said i want your

438
00:36:37,965 --> 00:36:40,785
Jack:
rod and he first the rest of the day with me.

439
00:36:41,045 --> 00:36:44,745
Jack:
I think that was a two-weight at that time. Two-weight Scott.

440
00:36:48,545 --> 00:36:58,845
Jack:
That was memorable. Then we had the cameras and interviewing Joan and Lee about this.

441
00:36:59,765 --> 00:37:07,185
Jack:
The most important thing I think I learned from him was the value of fly fishing

442
00:37:07,185 --> 00:37:11,805
Jack:
and your wife to handle the other things that don't go right.

443
00:37:12,325 --> 00:37:18,245
Jack:
And he talked about his divorces and how fishing may have caused that.

444
00:37:19,525 --> 00:37:23,625
Jack:
And he said, every time I would have something that upset me,

445
00:37:23,705 --> 00:37:27,065
Jack:
I could go away and fish and come back like it never happened.

446
00:37:27,925 --> 00:37:32,485
Jack:
And I think if your listeners there pretty much understand that.

447
00:37:32,605 --> 00:37:36,745
Jack:
All it takes is, and Lee, like myself, liked to fish alone.

448
00:37:38,065 --> 00:37:42,625
Jack:
And not that, you know, I do lots of boat fishing. I still row down the river.

449
00:37:42,865 --> 00:37:45,885
Jack:
But nothing beats getting out on your own.

450
00:37:46,005 --> 00:37:51,345
Jack:
I spent a bunch of time in New Zealand as a consultant.

451
00:37:51,885 --> 00:37:54,905
Jack:
And by the way, Lee really wanted to go to New Zealand.

452
00:37:56,265 --> 00:38:00,685
Jack:
And the one flight kind of helped that way because, you know,

453
00:38:00,705 --> 00:38:11,165
Jack:
he ended up passing away. And I feel so much responsible because he was qualifying for our trip.

454
00:38:11,505 --> 00:38:14,045
Jack:
But we had his license since I didn't have one.

455
00:38:15,561 --> 00:38:23,541
Jack:
I grew up in a family and knew how to fly. And he ended up having,

456
00:38:24,201 --> 00:38:28,001
Jack:
John thought he made a mistake, but the instructor lived.

457
00:38:28,261 --> 00:38:36,021
Jack:
What happened when he was coming in to land on final, the aorta bust and flooded

458
00:38:36,021 --> 00:38:37,661
Jack:
his cavity and he died instantly.

459
00:38:37,981 --> 00:38:42,261
Jack:
He fell on the stick in the front of the plane.

460
00:38:42,261 --> 00:38:47,921
Jack:
And he was six foot three or four,

461
00:38:48,161 --> 00:38:54,121
Jack:
six three or something like that and he played basketball for Stanford and baseball

462
00:38:54,121 --> 00:38:57,361
Jack:
for Stanford he was an incredibly good athlete.

463
00:38:58,641 --> 00:39:04,781
Jack:
So he still weighed enough where the guy could pull it up and they had a dead stick landing,

464
00:39:05,781 --> 00:39:12,921
Jack:
and luckily the guy survived and told Joan Joan, that he had passed his test,

465
00:39:13,221 --> 00:39:16,461
Jack:
which made her feel good that he didn't make a mistake.

466
00:39:17,001 --> 00:39:21,581
Jack:
And that was very touching when Joan called.

467
00:39:22,141 --> 00:39:27,881
Jack:
And I went back several times to help her try to figure out what to do with everything.

468
00:39:28,021 --> 00:39:30,401
Jack:
It was a tough time for her.

469
00:39:30,641 --> 00:39:36,141
Jack:
And I just think we have a very special relationship, Joan and I.

470
00:39:36,461 --> 00:39:41,101
Jack:
And it doesn't mean you have to talk all the time. you just feel it every time

471
00:39:41,101 --> 00:39:45,281
Jack:
we'd be at a show together she'd stop and we'd go talk and she would let anybody

472
00:39:45,281 --> 00:39:48,261
Jack:
interrupt us until we were done but.

473
00:39:50,541 --> 00:39:58,061
Jack:
She said Lee mellowed a lot in his early age and I you know I remember him from

474
00:39:58,061 --> 00:40:03,641
Jack:
the time I first met him to the time he died and there was a man in that 20 years,

475
00:40:05,221 --> 00:40:11,521
Jack:
yeah a little over 20 years that really understood how life was.

476
00:40:11,801 --> 00:40:20,501
Jack:
And he let Kurt Gowdy, let a few people in to his life. Very similar to Ted Williams.

477
00:40:22,501 --> 00:40:26,681
Jack:
Kurt compared the two of them as both legends in their sport.

478
00:40:27,081 --> 00:40:33,101
Jack:
And not because of what they accomplished, accomplish, but how they felt and

479
00:40:33,101 --> 00:40:40,521
Jack:
how they gained as close to perfection as you can.

480
00:40:40,961 --> 00:40:44,541
Jack:
I remember Ted telling me, he says, think of baseball.

481
00:40:44,721 --> 00:40:52,601
Jack:
You fail six times out of 10, and you're the greatest hitter that ever lived. You fail seven out of 10.

482
00:40:54,651 --> 00:40:59,491
Jack:
You're in the major leagues. You fail eight out of ten, you don't play.

483
00:41:01,051 --> 00:41:04,831
Jack:
He says, life is about overcoming failures.

484
00:41:06,011 --> 00:41:11,471
Jack:
And I think every time you lose a fish, every time you go, you learn something.

485
00:41:12,291 --> 00:41:16,351
Jack:
And then eventually, you don't lose fish.

486
00:41:16,771 --> 00:41:23,891
Jack:
And, you know, one thing, Marvin, that I see nowadays, days and I don't know

487
00:41:23,891 --> 00:41:28,451
Jack:
Lee how he would take it you know he would hold up,

488
00:41:30,191 --> 00:41:35,351
Jack:
the Atlantic salmon and always release them in the early days of the camp they

489
00:41:35,351 --> 00:41:39,911
Jack:
would keep the brook trout because they were so good eating in the lakes of Canada,

490
00:41:40,911 --> 00:41:49,391
Jack:
you know his gift to the world you know his famous statement is a game fish

491
00:41:49,391 --> 00:41:51,531
Jack:
is too valuable to catch only once,

492
00:41:52,231 --> 00:41:57,971
Jack:
and there's all kinds of different quotes from him that really,

493
00:41:58,011 --> 00:42:00,651
Jack:
truly, the father of catch and release.

494
00:42:00,871 --> 00:42:04,351
Jack:
And I have one of the articles that he did for Fly It, Run, Reel.

495
00:42:04,431 --> 00:42:10,251
Jack:
He wrote for them when they first came out about he and a friend of mine both

496
00:42:10,251 --> 00:42:14,131
Jack:
wrote articles together on the value of catch and release.

497
00:42:15,451 --> 00:42:18,471
Jack:
And it had a profound effect.

498
00:42:18,471 --> 00:42:21,931
Jack:
And i think i i look uh

499
00:42:21,931 --> 00:42:24,831
Jack:
now and and i think what what really

500
00:42:24,831 --> 00:42:29,931
Jack:
happened with lee is he gave us the energy to make the one fly work he he gave

501
00:42:29,931 --> 00:42:35,971
Jack:
valid he wrote the article giving it praise and it wasn't popular i got a lot

502
00:42:35,971 --> 00:42:43,511
Jack:
of hate letters um about i was going to ruin fly fishing it become mike golf when you paid for it.

503
00:42:43,751 --> 00:42:49,311
Jack:
And I just, I ended up coaching the world fly fishing team and being a part

504
00:42:49,311 --> 00:42:53,891
Jack:
of it just so I could learn from a real contest.

505
00:42:54,751 --> 00:42:58,831
Jack:
And they don't kill fish and they have very strict regulations.

506
00:42:59,491 --> 00:43:04,691
Jack:
And, you know, there's a competitive edge. But so far in the U.S.,

507
00:43:05,491 --> 00:43:10,351
Jack:
what I want is a wonder of these contests to raise money.

508
00:43:11,417 --> 00:43:17,537
Jack:
We've raised over $20 million in stream improvement projects,

509
00:43:17,917 --> 00:43:19,497
Jack:
all stream improvement projects.

510
00:43:20,037 --> 00:43:24,677
Jack:
And you can go to the streams and see what the work has done.

511
00:43:24,877 --> 00:43:28,797
Jack:
But what we've done is inspired other clubs. I would say there's close to 200

512
00:43:28,797 --> 00:43:33,237
Jack:
contests throughout here in Canada, and none of them have cash prizes.

513
00:43:34,037 --> 00:43:35,637
Jack:
They're there for fun.

514
00:43:36,657 --> 00:43:42,257
Jack:
And I think I look back on that, And I wish more people would understand that.

515
00:43:42,397 --> 00:43:43,857
Jack:
And it's about the flies.

516
00:43:44,337 --> 00:43:46,457
Jack:
My God, what would you ever...

517
00:43:47,037 --> 00:43:52,877
Jack:
The Chernobyl came from the guides of the Green River. I was there when it was designed and made.

518
00:43:53,477 --> 00:43:57,017
Jack:
And it was a fly that was pounded. And then you had the double bunny.

519
00:43:57,197 --> 00:43:58,977
Jack:
And then you had the church tarantula.

520
00:43:59,337 --> 00:44:05,177
Jack:
You had a whole series of flies that are in the fly fisheries repart. apart.

521
00:44:05,637 --> 00:44:13,117
Jack:
And so there's so many advantages to what this has been to highlight flies and

522
00:44:13,117 --> 00:44:16,917
Jack:
highlight becoming a better fisherman.

523
00:44:17,337 --> 00:44:19,437
Jack:
And it's fun.

524
00:44:22,097 --> 00:44:28,077
Jack:
I couldn't tell you who even won last year or who won because I don't care.

525
00:44:28,577 --> 00:44:31,957
Jack:
I don't care who wins. Everybody having a good time.

526
00:44:31,957 --> 00:44:38,037
Jack:
We raised a lot of money with our bank and I think it was about $600,000 last

527
00:44:38,037 --> 00:44:44,857
Jack:
year and I sit back and look at all these people and what fun they're having in fly fishing,

528
00:44:45,557 --> 00:44:48,537
Jack:
when Kurt and I envision just

529
00:44:48,537 --> 00:44:51,917
Jack:
a simple little contest has become honored now

530
00:44:51,917 --> 00:44:54,817
Jack:
by the American Museum of Fly Fishing we're

531
00:44:54,817 --> 00:44:58,217
Jack:
receiving their Heritage Award

532
00:44:58,217 --> 00:45:01,757
Jack:
award um and on april 18th

533
00:45:01,757 --> 00:45:05,037
Jack:
we get a preliminary award where we go to

534
00:45:05,037 --> 00:45:10,257
Jack:
the new york english club and to their in the american fly fishing museum fundraiser

535
00:45:10,257 --> 00:45:18,017
Jack:
and we we do this wonderful film it's on the ifa for a film tour called tension

536
00:45:18,017 --> 00:45:22,017
Jack:
and we've been allowed to show that at at the event,

537
00:45:22,997 --> 00:45:29,137
Jack:
And so it's really fun to see, you know, getting the recognition.

538
00:45:31,137 --> 00:45:35,677
Jack:
And you can't be any prouder. I feel like I've done about everything I could

539
00:45:35,677 --> 00:45:40,797
Jack:
to try to, you know, I've touched a lot of things, Mark.

540
00:45:41,697 --> 00:45:43,857
Jack:
It's been a wonderful float.

541
00:45:45,297 --> 00:45:48,417
Marvin:
Yeah, and it's amazing, too, because I've been, we were talking before we started

542
00:45:48,417 --> 00:45:52,877
Marvin:
recording, Jack, you know, You've been incredibly busy putting some of your

543
00:45:52,877 --> 00:45:56,357
Marvin:
kind of older, more original content on your YouTube channel.

544
00:45:58,451 --> 00:46:02,931
Jack:
Yeah, it, you know, I just, I got into it too late.

545
00:46:03,111 --> 00:46:07,291
Jack:
I didn't really understand. I didn't, you know, we were moving to North Carolina,

546
00:46:08,451 --> 00:46:12,831
Jack:
and ended up having to start over after I went up to 5,000.

547
00:46:12,991 --> 00:46:20,531
Jack:
Didn't understand, you know, YouTube had kind of led all the people to believe

548
00:46:20,531 --> 00:46:27,291
Jack:
that, especially in the fly fishing film, that they monitor what was copyrighted or not.

549
00:46:27,291 --> 00:46:32,771
Jack:
And everybody threw in whatever they could find, you know, from old stuff.

550
00:46:33,431 --> 00:46:39,931
Jack:
And all of a sudden, you know, DVD market had fell and all this stuff was out there.

551
00:46:40,291 --> 00:46:44,291
Jack:
Everybody's putting my stuff on. I didn't, I'll tell you, I couldn't afford

552
00:46:44,291 --> 00:46:46,071
Jack:
to copyright and they cost so much.

553
00:46:46,451 --> 00:46:53,031
Jack:
And the market was so small. I mean, you had a bestseller at 5,000 DVDs,

554
00:46:53,031 --> 00:46:57,931
Jack:
Although I did the Cabela's and they sold,

555
00:46:58,271 --> 00:47:02,911
Jack:
I mean, we sold 50,000 or more learning to fly fish.

556
00:47:03,891 --> 00:47:07,691
Jack:
I think the whole total was about 200,000.

557
00:47:08,854 --> 00:47:12,454
Jack:
You know, we also made them priced reasonably. And, you know,

558
00:47:12,554 --> 00:47:21,174
Jack:
to pay for a DVD for $30, just, I mean, what's happened is YouTube has made it really good now.

559
00:47:21,414 --> 00:47:24,414
Jack:
But it takes a lot of time. And, you know, I'm trying.

560
00:47:24,874 --> 00:47:28,374
Jack:
People find I saved a bunch of live

561
00:47:28,374 --> 00:47:35,174
Jack:
fly time from seminars when I was the producer of the Fly Time Theater.

562
00:47:35,714 --> 00:47:39,454
Jack:
And, you know, I show those. those. I've got a lot of stuff back there.

563
00:47:39,514 --> 00:47:44,154
Jack:
It's just how much time do I devote to it for so little return other than the

564
00:47:44,154 --> 00:47:47,754
Jack:
satisfaction at this age that somebody liked it.

565
00:47:48,074 --> 00:47:51,234
Marvin:
Yeah. And I'll drop a link to your channel in the show notes,

566
00:47:51,314 --> 00:47:52,834
Marvin:
Jack, so people can check it out.

567
00:47:52,894 --> 00:47:57,694
Marvin:
And I guess before I let you go, do you have, you know, maybe one thing you

568
00:47:57,694 --> 00:48:01,454
Marvin:
can share about Lee that, you know, maybe folks generally don't know that got

569
00:48:01,454 --> 00:48:05,554
Marvin:
to spend some time with him or kind of, you know, remember his public life.

570
00:48:06,854 --> 00:48:13,674
Jack:
Oh, yeah. Well, you know, I watched him when he was older years when he was

571
00:48:13,674 --> 00:48:17,234
Jack:
pushing these flexible flies at the sports shows.

572
00:48:17,414 --> 00:48:23,854
Jack:
And I thought to myself, God, here he is at this age pushing there in a booth,

573
00:48:24,974 --> 00:48:30,534
Jack:
where he should be, you know, with a room talking about his life and everything.

574
00:48:30,914 --> 00:48:37,154
Jack:
But he was trying to promote, you know, uh well product joan really was the

575
00:48:37,154 --> 00:48:42,034
Jack:
one joan had her fly casting school which is still going and she's still a part

576
00:48:42,034 --> 00:48:46,634
Jack:
of and but they had the fly line and let me tell you his taper,

577
00:48:47,694 --> 00:48:53,434
Jack:
his triangle taper has been matched and copied he sort of trademarked it but

578
00:48:53,434 --> 00:49:01,294
Jack:
you know like a lot of things you shouldn't have done you know and i look back

579
00:49:01,294 --> 00:49:04,354
Jack:
a hundred times and says boy i I should have done this or that.

580
00:49:07,234 --> 00:49:11,814
Jack:
But Lee was, you know, I thought, man, I'm not going to, I don't want to get to that.

581
00:49:11,894 --> 00:49:15,554
Jack:
I don't want to be at a booth promoting something in my 80s.

582
00:49:16,074 --> 00:49:21,234
Jack:
You know, I thought about, well, one of the things I can really do is go talk

583
00:49:21,234 --> 00:49:24,574
Jack:
about creating a sports show. And they don't seem to be interested in it.

584
00:49:24,694 --> 00:49:29,714
Jack:
I mean, I've never really, I've done it. I ran a sports show in Salt Lake City,

585
00:49:29,714 --> 00:49:35,654
Jack:
a fly fishing show with another guy and I for about seven years.

586
00:49:36,354 --> 00:49:42,034
Jack:
And after the pandemic, I moved and it went on to other people.

587
00:49:42,154 --> 00:49:44,534
Jack:
But I know how hard it is to produce that.

588
00:49:44,754 --> 00:49:48,874
Jack:
But I just saw the mood that nobody seemed to care about it.

589
00:49:49,194 --> 00:49:53,834
Jack:
And yet, you know, I find a few people that are still interested in it.

590
00:49:54,014 --> 00:50:01,554
Jack:
But there was a time, I think, how important I had the picture of Lee time at a 28.

591
00:50:02,354 --> 00:50:08,034
Jack:
I got it in my drawer right here. A 28 gray hackle peacock.

592
00:50:09,174 --> 00:50:17,314
Jack:
And in his hand, and I'm looking at it, and Yvon Chouinard is looking at it. I invited Yvon.

593
00:50:17,774 --> 00:50:20,674
Jack:
I thought he could learn a lot from Lee.

594
00:50:22,094 --> 00:50:27,954
Jack:
I've known Yvon since he was a climber in the Tetons.

595
00:50:28,714 --> 00:50:35,074
Jack:
He was living in his car when he first got there, and I was a young guy moving

596
00:50:35,074 --> 00:50:39,054
Jack:
the climbers back and forth after hours. Nobody wanted to stay there because

597
00:50:39,054 --> 00:50:41,834
Jack:
the climbers' time frame was their own.

598
00:50:41,994 --> 00:50:44,114
Jack:
And so I'd just go over there, park the boat, and fish.

599
00:50:44,974 --> 00:50:49,074
Jack:
And Yvonne would always ask me what I was doing. And he caught the fishing bug.

600
00:50:49,274 --> 00:50:57,174
Jack:
And we've gone through our lives with watching Yvonne grow into what he is today.

601
00:50:58,274 --> 00:51:04,034
Jack:
But he was so impressed. So he tied one for me and tied one for Yvonne.

602
00:51:04,114 --> 00:51:10,834
Jack:
And I'm sure he has that. But his abilities, oh boy,

603
00:51:10,994 --> 00:51:19,754
Jack:
I wish I could, you know, the way to put it in the man is a deep thinker who's always thinking.

604
00:51:20,774 --> 00:51:30,074
Jack:
And his personality went to the person that he was, he would show what he wanted

605
00:51:30,074 --> 00:51:32,014
Jack:
to to the person asking the question.

606
00:51:32,014 --> 00:51:38,294
Jack:
He had great respect that anybody that had risen in his field.

607
00:51:39,514 --> 00:51:46,874
Jack:
And he would give them more time or anybody that's coming up.

608
00:51:46,974 --> 00:51:52,034
Jack:
My guides loved it. He went out during that two weeks. He went out more with the guides.

609
00:51:53,414 --> 00:51:59,054
Jack:
I was wrapping up one fly during that time. And the guides just loved him.

610
00:51:59,434 --> 00:52:04,774
Jack:
And he would give them a fly. I mean, each one of those guys had the flies. flies.

611
00:52:05,194 --> 00:52:15,354
Jack:
And I think after he died, Joan sent me a fly, which is not to stay in my family.

612
00:52:15,914 --> 00:52:19,574
Jack:
And it was his fly from the book, The Art of the Fly.

613
00:52:20,434 --> 00:52:23,934
Jack:
And he said, this was Lee's most treasured fly.

614
00:52:24,854 --> 00:52:29,114
Jack:
So I always felt that he kind of passed. Oh, and he loved my Royal Humpy.

615
00:52:29,274 --> 00:52:32,014
Jack:
Oh, geez, he just loved it. He loved the Humpy, couldn't see it.

616
00:52:32,534 --> 00:52:37,014
Jack:
He was very abysmal. type of guy. He liked his drive slides so he could see them.

617
00:52:37,134 --> 00:52:41,094
Jack:
That's why he put the when he started out, of course, I don't know how many

618
00:52:41,094 --> 00:52:43,234
Jack:
people know, but he started out with Bucktail.

619
00:52:44,514 --> 00:52:48,734
Jack:
And Lee had this wonderful friendship with Dan Bailey.

620
00:52:48,854 --> 00:52:52,994
Jack:
And Dan Bailey said, look, you got the wrong material. And well,

621
00:52:53,014 --> 00:52:54,574
Jack:
that's not how you start off with Lee.

622
00:52:55,194 --> 00:52:56,914
Jack:
But Dan convinced him.

623
00:52:59,174 --> 00:53:04,054
Jack:
That he could show him how. And And he took care of Lee. I mean,

624
00:53:04,074 --> 00:53:06,714
Jack:
they didn't have any kind of program like they have now.

625
00:53:06,814 --> 00:53:10,934
Jack:
That was developed by Umpqua, where you got paid for a pattern.

626
00:53:11,154 --> 00:53:15,634
Jack:
A man I can't imagine, but he never had to worry about anything.

627
00:53:15,854 --> 00:53:21,974
Jack:
Dan Bailey just took wonderful care. And I'm sure at the end of each year, he sent him a check.

628
00:53:23,794 --> 00:53:28,074
Jack:
But he's the one that really developed the Wolf pattern into what they are,

629
00:53:28,154 --> 00:53:31,914
Jack:
changing them over to what they called in those days, Kip-Tails.

630
00:53:31,914 --> 00:53:38,414
Jack:
Nobody wanted to call it a cast tail impala tail that was always the best one in power like.

631
00:53:40,188 --> 00:53:47,628
Jack:
You know, and, uh, but he, uh, what, you know, that's amazing what you can gather

632
00:53:47,628 --> 00:53:51,068
Jack:
from, uh, from people. Uh, he was simple.

633
00:53:51,208 --> 00:53:57,068
Jack:
He didn't want to, I mean, he was more interested in the approach and fly fishing, what the fly was.

634
00:53:57,908 --> 00:54:03,968
Jack:
He was interested in, in figuring out the situation. He liked to go one-on-one with the fish.

635
00:54:04,968 --> 00:54:11,048
Jack:
I was able to film his last fish he caught in Wyoming. I thought for a long

636
00:54:11,048 --> 00:54:12,628
Jack:
time it was the last fish he ever caught.

637
00:54:13,008 --> 00:54:18,128
Jack:
But he did do a piece just like three months before he died.

638
00:54:18,868 --> 00:54:24,188
Jack:
So when he was in the one fly, that was about four years or four months,

639
00:54:24,208 --> 00:54:26,948
Jack:
I mean, before he died. He died in February.

640
00:54:27,668 --> 00:54:32,868
Jack:
But he did a deal on his home river, which is wonderful. But you could tell

641
00:54:32,868 --> 00:54:38,808
Jack:
he had lost his energy since the one fall. It's just like you're looking at two different people.

642
00:54:38,948 --> 00:54:45,968
Jack:
For whatever time, you could just see that, the difference in the two people in a few months.

643
00:54:46,788 --> 00:54:53,488
Jack:
But he did it. He only caught some fish. But it was real fishing adventure when we had him.

644
00:54:53,528 --> 00:54:55,848
Jack:
And we just let him go out on his own.

645
00:54:56,368 --> 00:55:00,768
Jack:
And we filmed it. And we just watched everything. And I got this all on film.

646
00:55:00,768 --> 00:55:05,488
Jack:
And eventually, I will get to where we put it on YouTube.

647
00:55:07,128 --> 00:55:08,468
Jack:
I just...

648
00:55:11,428 --> 00:55:19,168
Jack:
Kurt interviewed him about his life. And it was very...

649
00:55:21,916 --> 00:55:29,576
Jack:
I don't know how to put the word, but not melodramatic, but sad in some ways,

650
00:55:29,576 --> 00:55:31,096
Jack:
the way he viewed himself.

651
00:55:31,556 --> 00:55:37,236
Jack:
He viewed Kurt as a much bigger, you're famous and everything,

652
00:55:37,496 --> 00:55:40,116
Jack:
you're better at your job than I was.

653
00:55:40,576 --> 00:55:43,676
Jack:
And Kurt's trying to tell him, no, you're not.

654
00:55:44,156 --> 00:55:47,236
Jack:
You rose to the top of the field.

655
00:55:48,136 --> 00:55:51,136
Jack:
But you know i could see the reluctance and

656
00:55:51,136 --> 00:55:54,076
Jack:
lee said you know you just there is no such thing as

657
00:55:54,076 --> 00:55:57,856
Jack:
a professional fly fishing and they can make any money he

658
00:55:57,856 --> 00:56:02,156
Jack:
says the lucky i had a career in advertising and they had people that were very

659
00:56:02,156 --> 00:56:09,076
Jack:
good to they did he said i i couldn't have lived on this and and i think he

660
00:56:09,076 --> 00:56:16,756
Jack:
had a lot of the skepticism about where fly fishing was going to go and.

661
00:56:17,636 --> 00:56:23,856
Jack:
You know it has gotten bigger and I'm sure you you know if you look at all the

662
00:56:23,856 --> 00:56:26,936
Jack:
rod companies are all owned by except for St.

663
00:56:27,056 --> 00:56:31,816
Jack:
Croix they're owned by well-to-do people that can afford to be in it you know

664
00:56:31,816 --> 00:56:36,456
Jack:
you look at Orvis the Orvis family and you know the rod guarantees I always

665
00:56:36,456 --> 00:56:40,076
Jack:
saw it when they put those lifetime warranties that was going to drive up the price,

666
00:56:40,736 --> 00:56:45,256
Jack:
and it made the company virtually unsellable,

667
00:56:45,956 --> 00:56:50,016
Jack:
And, you know, the same people pretty much still own it.

668
00:56:50,276 --> 00:56:56,676
Jack:
Thomas and Thomas went to several owners and everything, but it's kind of where

669
00:56:56,676 --> 00:56:58,976
Jack:
things are. And I see Lee saw that.

670
00:56:59,236 --> 00:57:06,216
Jack:
And he talked, you know, and I looked at his boxes,

671
00:57:06,236 --> 00:57:14,836
Jack:
and I have to laugh because three of the best fishermen I know have old boxes

672
00:57:14,836 --> 00:57:17,916
Jack:
and they just throw all the flies in.

673
00:57:17,936 --> 00:57:21,036
Jack:
Randall Coffin is the most organized writer I've ever been around.

674
00:57:21,776 --> 00:57:25,676
Jack:
And I open up his fly box. I say, hey, get out of catter.

675
00:57:25,756 --> 00:57:30,436
Jack:
He goes through about three boxes to find it. It's not even separated out.

676
00:57:30,756 --> 00:57:36,436
Jack:
And I realized, you know, I'm that way too, but I have to do it to make it look good.

677
00:57:36,476 --> 00:57:39,716
Jack:
People see that, they'll look at me and say, what are you doing?

678
00:57:40,576 --> 00:57:42,356
Jack:
But Lee was that way too.

679
00:57:45,016 --> 00:57:49,136
Jack:
He wasn't super organized, except for his thinking.

680
00:57:50,276 --> 00:57:57,016
Jack:
I know, here's the thing, as Joan said, he was the ultimate predator,

681
00:57:57,416 --> 00:57:59,816
Jack:
especially in the ocean fishing.

682
00:58:00,276 --> 00:58:04,056
Jack:
And he says, look, ocean fishing is easy, you just got to find,

683
00:58:04,196 --> 00:58:07,736
Jack:
once you find them, they're not hard to catch, but you got to find them and that's hard.

684
00:58:09,287 --> 00:58:13,867
Jack:
And I asked him what kind of fishing you like the best.

685
00:58:14,467 --> 00:58:20,467
Jack:
This is a great answer. He said, whatever I'm fishing for, it's the best right then.

686
00:58:20,627 --> 00:58:23,007
Jack:
And I thought, man, is that ever true?

687
00:58:23,687 --> 00:58:29,427
Jack:
Wherever I'm at, whether it's bone fishing or in South America or where,

688
00:58:29,627 --> 00:58:30,627
Jack:
in New Zealand especially.

689
00:58:30,947 --> 00:58:34,607
Jack:
New Zealand was where I learned the most about fly fishing.

690
00:58:35,087 --> 00:58:38,687
Jack:
And Australia, wherever it may depend, it's great.

691
00:58:40,467 --> 00:58:46,407
Jack:
And one of the things he said, you know, you can build any number of golf courses.

692
00:58:46,947 --> 00:58:51,427
Jack:
You know, golf will get it, but you can't build new trout streams.

693
00:58:52,027 --> 00:58:56,007
Jack:
And the only thing we've got is to protect them is catching release.

694
00:58:56,767 --> 00:59:02,227
Jack:
That's on this tape. And that just really hit. And that made me,

695
00:59:02,347 --> 00:59:03,907
Jack:
now that was filmed in 1990.

696
00:59:04,247 --> 00:59:09,787
Jack:
And he died in 91. And that has stuck with me and stuck with me when we turned

697
00:59:09,787 --> 00:59:15,647
Jack:
the OneFly into an organization to rebuild strings. It hit.

698
00:59:16,507 --> 00:59:21,827
Jack:
I can tell you right now, fishing is better on the Snake River and pretty much

699
00:59:21,827 --> 00:59:27,887
Jack:
all the rivers I fish than when I was a guide in the 60s.

700
00:59:28,127 --> 00:59:31,787
Jack:
Fishing is better. Better on the green. It's better. I mean,

701
00:59:31,807 --> 00:59:34,967
Jack:
go on South Fork, Lake River.

702
00:59:36,127 --> 00:59:41,027
Jack:
I can't speak for Montana because I didn't fish it when I was really young. Yellowstone is better.

703
00:59:41,867 --> 00:59:47,867
Jack:
The Yellowstone Lake's coming back with great big cutthroats that can survive the Mackinac.

704
00:59:48,027 --> 00:59:50,867
Jack:
They learn to evolve into big fish.

705
00:59:52,067 --> 00:59:57,227
Jack:
You do believe 11-pound cutthroats caught last year on a fly.

706
00:59:57,867 --> 01:00:02,347
Jack:
And Yellowstone Lake, the lake that the Mackinac run.

707
01:00:03,627 --> 01:00:08,087
Marvin:
Yeah, it's one of my favorite places to fish. I love fishing the fire hole.

708
01:00:09,690 --> 01:00:16,490
Jack:
Yeah, but think of Yellowstone Lake. There were hardly any fish left in the river.

709
01:00:17,830 --> 01:00:25,230
Jack:
And they evolved. Of course, they reduced the mackerel population, which helped.

710
01:00:25,370 --> 01:00:28,750
Jack:
But the spawning is limited. But it'll come back.

711
01:00:29,110 --> 01:00:32,630
Jack:
Nature has a way of doing this. And the nice thing about Yellowstone,

712
01:00:32,710 --> 01:00:39,150
Jack:
just the way it is. But, you know, the big problem I see, and the fire hole

713
01:00:39,150 --> 01:00:40,450
Jack:
hasn't changed one darn bit.

714
01:00:41,850 --> 01:00:47,410
Jack:
You have a little bit of, the rivers do have a little bit of a problem with the buffalo.

715
01:00:47,610 --> 01:00:50,190
Jack:
There's far more buffalo than historically there.

716
01:00:50,510 --> 01:00:54,130
Jack:
And they have beaten down the bank, but, you know, that's part of nature.

717
01:00:54,490 --> 01:00:56,350
Jack:
You know, the fish will survive.

718
01:00:58,150 --> 01:01:00,530
Jack:
No stream improvement in Nashville Park.

719
01:01:02,510 --> 01:01:07,430
Marvin:
It's interesting though I know the stream banks have recovered since they reintroduced

720
01:01:07,430 --> 01:01:13,850
Marvin:
the wolves too that's kind of helped kind of move the elk and the bison kind of off a little bit.

721
01:01:15,010 --> 01:01:19,750
Jack:
I don't even want to get into that there's some hard feelings on that that's

722
01:01:19,750 --> 01:01:24,210
Jack:
one thing in Jackson that I've learned my wife was an ER nurse there so she's

723
01:01:24,210 --> 01:01:29,030
Jack:
got plenty of bear incidents I just,

724
01:01:30,610 --> 01:01:36,370
Jack:
And it is so much like everything, a political move.

725
01:01:39,750 --> 01:01:46,310
Jack:
I just don't really get an opinion on it, other than there's too many buffalo in Yellowstone Park.

726
01:01:46,750 --> 01:01:52,030
Jack:
But, you know, the tourists like them. The park tries to do the best they can with it.

727
01:01:52,250 --> 01:01:58,450
Jack:
But there is negative effects. effects, you know, none of those streams flowing

728
01:01:58,450 --> 01:02:03,470
Jack:
into the Yellowstone can reproduce fish like they used to because they've been all trampled down.

729
01:02:04,270 --> 01:02:07,950
Jack:
And the buffalo wouldn't have been there if a white man hadn't run them in there.

730
01:02:09,170 --> 01:02:11,210
Jack:
So you know, where do you go?

731
01:02:12,732 --> 01:02:17,892
Jack:
But, you know, I, you know, getting back with Lee is that he saw like a lot

732
01:02:17,892 --> 01:02:22,872
Jack:
of people don't remember, you know, trap fishing was really threatened in the 1890s in New York.

733
01:02:22,892 --> 01:02:27,752
Jack:
They had pretty much killed all the, the fish that ran up into the rivers and,

734
01:02:27,792 --> 01:02:32,352
Jack:
you know, so that it came real, you know, their answer was to have a private

735
01:02:32,352 --> 01:02:35,932
Jack:
club, redo the streams, you know, and monitor the fishing.

736
01:02:35,932 --> 01:02:44,492
Jack:
And Lee was a product of that, understanding that not only catch and release,

737
01:02:44,772 --> 01:02:51,832
Jack:
but trying to undo the damage that was done in the sake of ignorance.

738
01:02:52,352 --> 01:02:55,672
Jack:
You know, how much do you value fly fishing?

739
01:02:56,532 --> 01:03:02,252
Jack:
You know, what do you put as a value when you look at the people that have done it?

740
01:03:02,252 --> 01:03:09,292
Jack:
You know, from the Bush family, you know, really, really got to be interested

741
01:03:09,292 --> 01:03:14,132
Jack:
in fly fishing to Dick Cheney, who would rather do anything.

742
01:03:14,312 --> 01:03:19,372
Jack:
I asked him, what would his last trip be? He only had one trip. He says, I got it.

743
01:03:19,792 --> 01:03:23,912
Jack:
Go to Canada on a steelhead stream all by myself.

744
01:03:24,132 --> 01:03:27,792
Jack:
I want it snowing. I don't care if I catch a fish.

745
01:03:28,972 --> 01:03:34,912
Jack:
That's my last trip of my life. And he said, now you've got to do your last trip of life.

746
01:03:35,312 --> 01:03:41,772
Jack:
And that was going out at 6.30 at night and spending all night fishing a crane fly hatch.

747
01:03:42,932 --> 01:03:48,152
Jack:
That was my last trip. Both said we had to do our last trip before we knew we were going to die.

748
01:03:50,232 --> 01:03:52,152
Jack:
And that was kind of Lee. I mean...

749
01:03:54,658 --> 01:03:58,638
Jack:
The best time we talked with Lee was when we were eating lunch.

750
01:04:00,378 --> 01:04:06,178
Jack:
And he did Kurt and I. And they'd start talking about their old days filming and laughing.

751
01:04:07,818 --> 01:04:10,598
Jack:
And he told one story. This is a good one.

752
01:04:12,538 --> 01:04:21,158
Jack:
They were filming in Canada. And Lee had this idea of how he was going to do this segment.

753
01:04:21,178 --> 01:04:26,098
Jack:
And he wanted to have it. and during the American Sportsman they would let independent

754
01:04:26,098 --> 01:04:29,238
Jack:
people Kurt would become the producer, Lee would become the producer,

755
01:04:30,298 --> 01:04:34,158
Jack:
and they would, you know, they would set it up hire the cameramen and deliver

756
01:04:34,158 --> 01:04:36,998
Jack:
the final product to ABC to be on the show,

757
01:04:38,898 --> 01:04:43,458
Jack:
and so they were filming and he said, what I want is to have you Kurt with the

758
01:04:43,458 --> 01:04:46,078
Jack:
rod underneath your hand, flies

759
01:04:46,078 --> 01:04:51,198
Jack:
out in the water and you're lighting the cigar back then, that was okay.

760
01:04:53,518 --> 01:04:59,618
Jack:
And this was during the time of the day when there was no fishing, middle of the day,

761
01:05:00,918 --> 01:05:07,458
Jack:
and so what Lee would do and he always looked to cut money, Kirk didn't cut,

762
01:05:08,478 --> 01:05:12,998
Jack:
he just paid the best to get the best photographers, but Lee was a cheapskate

763
01:05:12,998 --> 01:05:16,698
Jack:
and he would hire a French Canadian cameraman, which he could get for,

764
01:05:17,198 --> 01:05:22,118
Jack:
very cheap, now realize you're using and 35-millimeter film,

765
01:05:22,278 --> 01:05:28,118
Jack:
which is when edited back then was $1,000 a minute.

766
01:05:28,818 --> 01:05:35,838
Jack:
So if you had a 23-minute show, just in that fee is going to be $46,000.

767
01:05:35,978 --> 01:05:37,318
Jack:
That's a lot of money back then.

768
01:05:38,758 --> 01:05:41,038
Jack:
And so you didn't waste it.

769
01:05:42,977 --> 01:05:50,417
Jack:
So Lee's idea was to get a big daredevil without the hook on it,

770
01:05:50,437 --> 01:05:55,397
Jack:
cast it out, and get the big brook trout to chase it in.

771
01:05:55,857 --> 01:05:58,757
Jack:
And they would take flies on the surface real easily.

772
01:05:59,637 --> 01:06:04,977
Jack:
So we'd do that. The fish would come in and send it up. The fish wouldn't take the fly.

773
01:06:05,397 --> 01:06:09,117
Jack:
It just went on and on. And Lee was very devoted on doing this.

774
01:06:09,197 --> 01:06:12,077
Jack:
He'd look up and see the camera, and they're standing there.

775
01:06:14,297 --> 01:06:19,597
Jack:
What they needed to do is once they brought the daredevil in,

776
01:06:19,797 --> 01:06:22,737
Jack:
they would then hit the camera and film that.

777
01:06:23,677 --> 01:06:28,177
Jack:
Then you'd build it afterwards. And how you did the old shows with film is you

778
01:06:28,177 --> 01:06:31,517
Jack:
caught the fish, then you acted out everything before it.

779
01:06:31,637 --> 01:06:35,237
Jack:
Now, of course, you can film everything because video doesn't cost anything.

780
01:06:35,937 --> 01:06:42,137
Jack:
So he's doing that and doing that. Finally, the fish takes a flight.

781
01:06:42,637 --> 01:06:44,577
Jack:
Kurt throws a rod in the air.

782
01:06:45,097 --> 01:06:51,277
Jack:
The cigar goes everywhere. He goes, oh, we got it. I've been trying for years to get that.

783
01:06:52,077 --> 01:06:55,157
Jack:
He turns around, and there's no cameraman there.

784
01:06:56,577 --> 01:06:59,677
Jack:
He yells, did you get it? There's one guy standing there. I said, get what?

785
01:07:01,957 --> 01:07:04,797
Jack:
Lee went right up there and just decked the guy.

786
01:07:07,137 --> 01:07:09,697
Jack:
So that was another part of it he had a quick temper,

787
01:07:11,757 --> 01:07:16,737
Jack:
you gotta take the good with the bad here always said this is how you evaluate

788
01:07:16,737 --> 01:07:22,937
Jack:
a friend somebody you want to have a friendship with like a sports game you

789
01:07:22,937 --> 01:07:24,817
Jack:
add up all the good things,

790
01:07:25,597 --> 01:07:30,557
Jack:
and you got your score then you add up all the bad things and you got your score

791
01:07:30,557 --> 01:07:34,417
Jack:
the good things outweigh the bad things you got a friend And.

792
01:07:36,981 --> 01:07:39,981
Marvin:
Yeah, that's a novel concept in this day and age, right?

793
01:07:41,961 --> 01:07:50,921
Jack:
Yeah, that's the way Kurt really helped me understand what it was to stay in your lane.

794
01:07:51,481 --> 01:07:57,501
Jack:
You know, the saddest part of all of these guys, and I know what they mean now

795
01:07:57,501 --> 01:08:02,981
Jack:
that I'm 77, is that nobody remembers you after a time.

796
01:08:02,981 --> 01:08:07,241
Jack:
When you're in the middle of the battle and everybody knows you,

797
01:08:07,821 --> 01:08:12,281
Jack:
then all of a sudden you start on a – I look at life like an airplane.

798
01:08:12,441 --> 01:08:15,241
Jack:
You take off. My family was involved in aviation.

799
01:08:17,641 --> 01:08:24,681
Jack:
You take off, and I got to be able to fly Boeing jets and simulators and all

800
01:08:24,681 --> 01:08:30,101
Jack:
kinds of planes on my adventures, but not wanting to do it as a profession.

801
01:08:30,101 --> 01:08:33,061
Jack:
But if you take off, that's what you do.

802
01:08:33,121 --> 01:08:36,221
Jack:
You work your way through school, you're doing the college, you're doing everything.

803
01:08:36,661 --> 01:08:43,621
Jack:
All of a sudden, you get married, you have kids, and the plane is in what we call cruisimatic.

804
01:08:44,081 --> 01:08:49,341
Jack:
Going down, you back off the power, and you enjoy the ride.

805
01:08:49,981 --> 01:08:54,741
Jack:
When you get down, all of a sudden, you're going to have to land.

806
01:08:54,941 --> 01:08:58,341
Jack:
You've got to bring back the power more, and you start to descend.

807
01:08:58,341 --> 01:09:04,881
Jack:
And as you descend, it's each part of your life that all of a sudden you're on final.

808
01:09:05,401 --> 01:09:10,321
Jack:
Out comes the gear, and you hope you make a nice off-landing die in bed.

809
01:09:11,681 --> 01:09:19,241
Jack:
Anywhere along that climb, that plane can crash. But that was my idea how life was.

810
01:09:19,881 --> 01:09:24,101
Jack:
And, you know, everybody says live every day like your last.

811
01:09:24,261 --> 01:09:26,601
Jack:
I mean, that's great. I just live every day like it's a day.

812
01:09:29,646 --> 01:09:32,406
Jack:
And try to do as many things with friends as you can.

813
01:09:34,706 --> 01:09:40,446
Jack:
And that's why people ask me, why did you still row the river at almost 77?

814
01:09:40,646 --> 01:09:42,926
Jack:
I said, because that's what you do.

815
01:09:44,666 --> 01:09:48,386
Jack:
If I can do it, I'm going to do it as long as I can. Because I get to see beautiful

816
01:09:48,386 --> 01:09:50,266
Jack:
skies and be away from people.

817
01:09:50,546 --> 01:09:54,466
Jack:
Many times I'd float down and never see a person all day. Think about that.

818
01:09:54,926 --> 01:10:00,386
Jack:
Never see a human all day. And you're in a boat. Can't beat it.

819
01:10:01,806 --> 01:10:05,806
Marvin:
It's certainly one of the reasons why I like fishing the Rocky Mountain West,

820
01:10:05,946 --> 01:10:09,366
Marvin:
although it's gotten a little harder and harder to find that solitude.

821
01:10:09,446 --> 01:10:12,946
Marvin:
But I always think, you know, floating in Montana, that, you know,

822
01:10:12,946 --> 01:10:15,366
Marvin:
when you kind of get out a little bit and you don't see anybody,

823
01:10:15,486 --> 01:10:20,546
Marvin:
that you're literally looking at the landscape exactly the way it was when Lewis and Clark came through.

824
01:10:21,766 --> 01:10:24,506
Jack:
Well, that's what I love about Yellowstone. When you go to Yellowstone,

825
01:10:24,586 --> 01:10:27,506
Jack:
that was the way it was all the way back.

826
01:10:28,126 --> 01:10:32,146
Jack:
Forget the roads to it. Just look out there where there's no roads or trails

827
01:10:32,146 --> 01:10:33,446
Jack:
and say, and that's the way it was.

828
01:10:34,526 --> 01:10:38,386
Jack:
And of course the wilderness areas, but you have to hike into the older you

829
01:10:38,386 --> 01:10:40,866
Jack:
get. You just can't do that. You know, you can't do that.

830
01:10:41,966 --> 01:10:44,846
Jack:
So what I like is you just learn to be create.

831
01:10:45,946 --> 01:10:50,646
Jack:
The guides have to be there. My grandson's a guide at this, in the shop where

832
01:10:50,646 --> 01:10:54,326
Jack:
I guide and where he guides.

833
01:10:54,426 --> 01:10:59,086
Jack:
I mean, I don't get where he got and they have to go out at seven 30 and They

834
01:10:59,086 --> 01:11:03,546
Jack:
expect it to be back at 530 because all the restaurants close at nine o'clock,

835
01:11:03,606 --> 01:11:06,926
Jack:
except for a brew pub closes at 10.

836
01:11:07,306 --> 01:11:12,066
Jack:
So you go out at 10 or 11 and you fish dark and you don't see anybody.

837
01:11:14,210 --> 01:11:19,930
Jack:
You have to be inventive to not see people. Now, that may not happen on a man

838
01:11:19,930 --> 01:11:25,610
Jack:
or something like that, but you'll run into privates, but people want to be

839
01:11:25,610 --> 01:11:27,930
Jack:
off the river. They're afraid of the dark.

840
01:11:29,050 --> 01:11:32,030
Jack:
They don't feel comfortable rowing, and they don't really.

841
01:11:32,450 --> 01:11:36,810
Jack:
The rivers are long. Some of them are 24-mile stretch in one day.

842
01:11:37,150 --> 01:11:40,350
Jack:
You have a motor, but if it gets too low, you don't have the motor.

843
01:11:41,110 --> 01:11:46,990
Jack:
You know it's it's being inventive I think you know that's what Lee would say

844
01:11:46,990 --> 01:11:50,550
Jack:
that he he would just figure a way so he could be alone,

845
01:11:51,470 --> 01:11:56,430
Jack:
but meant getting on private property he'd go to private property I don't like

846
01:11:56,430 --> 01:12:00,110
Jack:
the deal with private property I had to get on about any private property but

847
01:12:00,110 --> 01:12:05,330
Jack:
it comes with a price you the call up I need you to come out and get my buddy

848
01:12:05,330 --> 01:12:10,230
Jack:
a casting lesson or take him fishing it always happened when it was on your daughter's birthday

849
01:12:10,350 --> 01:12:13,430
Jack:
thing and so i learned

850
01:12:13,430 --> 01:12:17,350
Jack:
there's plenty of water out there and and

851
01:12:17,350 --> 01:12:23,530
Jack:
uh it just private lamb came with there you know you know if you did it you're

852
01:12:23,530 --> 01:12:28,390
Jack:
gonna and then that's rightly so nothing wrong with it just something i don't

853
01:12:28,390 --> 01:12:35,530
Jack:
particularly want to do so i i think it's wonderful you know lee has gotten the,

854
01:12:36,490 --> 01:12:39,410
Jack:
notoriety of being such an.

855
01:12:43,670 --> 01:12:46,530
Jack:
Adventurer. But you think about it right now.

856
01:12:46,630 --> 01:12:51,990
Jack:
What is a building now which is so wonderful for the country is that we have

857
01:12:51,990 --> 01:12:55,450
Jack:
the fishermen that has the money to travel to,

858
01:12:56,390 --> 01:13:01,990
Jack:
Argentina and all over the world now, all these places and bring them money.

859
01:13:03,650 --> 01:13:07,810
Jack:
Get people jobs. You know, when I started helping on the travel,

860
01:13:07,970 --> 01:13:09,310
Jack:
there were just so few people.

861
01:13:09,470 --> 01:13:15,810
Jack:
We were working in New Zealand on trying to figure out how I only had a 38% return rate.

862
01:13:16,070 --> 01:13:20,990
Jack:
And I got hired by the government near New Zealand and the tourist commission

863
01:13:20,990 --> 01:13:25,190
Jack:
in Frontiers to try to figure out why. Well, it was really simple.

864
01:13:25,570 --> 01:13:28,090
Jack:
They were bringing people from Alaska. Right.

865
01:13:29,371 --> 01:13:34,071
Jack:
Were used to catching, you know, 50 fish a day, and they just didn't have the skill level.

866
01:13:34,511 --> 01:13:39,751
Jack:
So what we did is we brought over, we worked an intricate plan over 10 years

867
01:13:39,751 --> 01:13:45,871
Jack:
of bringing fly shop owners for free over there so they could see how difficult the fishing was.

868
01:13:46,131 --> 01:13:51,011
Jack:
And so when they booked a person, they knew they were sending them, they were qualified.

869
01:13:51,431 --> 01:13:56,551
Jack:
And they targeted at places like Pennsylvania and California and Colorado,

870
01:13:56,651 --> 01:14:02,791
Jack:
where they had conditions that were similar to New Zealand.

871
01:14:03,131 --> 01:14:07,171
Jack:
And it was just wonderful to watch that grow from one lodge.

872
01:14:07,311 --> 01:14:09,911
Jack:
When I started, there was one lodge. It really wasn't a lodge.

873
01:14:10,031 --> 01:14:10,911
Jack:
It was called Hookah Lodge.

874
01:14:11,411 --> 01:14:16,371
Jack:
And then it built up to where the government helped build lodges up to about six.

875
01:14:17,151 --> 01:14:19,631
Jack:
And now I think there's over 60.

876
01:14:20,411 --> 01:14:29,751
Jack:
And the fishing has remained really good and it's mainly because the enlightened

877
01:14:29,751 --> 01:14:31,671
Jack:
fly fishermen there they're locals,

878
01:14:31,931 --> 01:14:36,551
Jack:
they have to be good to catch fish and they have ingrained the catch and release

879
01:14:36,551 --> 01:14:42,171
Jack:
and it has become a very important industry for this small country of New Zealand

880
01:14:42,171 --> 01:14:45,391
Jack:
and I see that all around the world, I see people,

881
01:14:45,551 --> 01:14:47,911
Jack:
I get my texts from my friends in Tasmania.

882
01:14:47,951 --> 01:14:52,271
Jack:
I've worked with them, and they're all just saying, boy, we've got to get more cats in the leaves.

883
01:14:52,431 --> 01:14:56,491
Jack:
We've got to look at the water levels. They're doing all the stuff that we're

884
01:14:56,491 --> 01:14:58,411
Jack:
doing, and now they've got a problem.

885
01:14:58,491 --> 01:15:00,771
Jack:
The mainland Australia is protecting the native fares.

886
01:15:01,891 --> 01:15:05,831
Jack:
The conservation-minded people want the trout out of Australia.

887
01:15:06,151 --> 01:15:07,811
Jack:
Yeah, that's a battle. When you

888
01:15:07,811 --> 01:15:12,191
Jack:
consider about every prime minister of Australia has been a fly fisher.

889
01:15:13,671 --> 01:15:17,671
Marvin:
Yeah that's uh it's an interesting thing i mean the whole you know native wild

890
01:15:17,671 --> 01:15:22,371
Marvin:
thing is an interesting discussion and you know jack i appreciate you spending

891
01:15:22,371 --> 01:15:27,391
Marvin:
so much time and you know sharing a perspective on lee that you know most people

892
01:15:27,391 --> 01:15:32,251
Marvin:
don't have and you know certainly look forward to you coming back and uh sharing

893
01:15:32,251 --> 01:15:33,551
Marvin:
some more stories with us whatever.

894
01:15:33,551 --> 01:15:38,451
Jack:
You want to do it and i'm happy to talk about techniques and stuff too not just

895
01:15:38,451 --> 01:15:41,891
Jack:
Just the things I've learned out of boats and things.

896
01:15:42,211 --> 01:15:46,671
Jack:
Whatever you want. Just try to be relevant.

897
01:15:48,851 --> 01:15:50,231
Marvin:
I appreciate that.

898
01:15:50,311 --> 01:15:51,891
Jack:
I have a lot more stories.

899
01:15:52,591 --> 01:15:57,511
Marvin:
Oh, I know you do. I'm excited to record them and bring them to the listeners.

900
01:15:58,751 --> 01:16:01,951
Intro:
Well, folks, I hope you enjoyed that as much as we enjoyed bringing it to you.

901
01:16:02,231 --> 01:16:06,411
Intro:
And don't forget to check out The Chocolate Factory on May 4th at Jesse Brown's

902
01:16:06,411 --> 01:16:08,491
Intro:
Outdoors. Tight lines, everybody.