Intro: Hey folks, it's Marvin Cash, the host of the Articulate Fly.

Intro: On this episode, I'm joined by my friend Jack Dennis. I've been fortunate to

Intro: get to know and spend time with Jack.

Intro: He not only makes you a better fisherman, but a better person.

Intro: On this episode, he generously shares his stories of his friendship with Lee Wolf.

Intro: Jack is quite the storyteller, and I think you're really going to enjoy this

Intro: one. It's a great peek inside a special time in American fly fishing.

Intro: But before we get to the interview, just a couple of housekeeping items.

Intro: If you like the podcast, please tell a friend, and please subscribe and leave

Intro: us a rating or review in the podcatcher of your choice. It really helps us out.

Intro: And we're excited to partner with our friends at Jesse Brown's to bring the

Intro: Chocolate Factory to Charlotte on May 4th.

Intro: Blaine will be teaching private tying classes, discussing predator and prey,

Intro: and sharing his favorite rod, reel, and line combos.

Intro: Stay tuned on social media for more details.

Intro: Now, on to our interview.

Marvin: Well, Jack, welcome to the Articulate Fly.

Jack: Like the name.

Marvin: Thanks. I'm looking forward to our conversation. I really enjoy the fact we've

Marvin: sort of become friends over the phone and kind of met through some fly fishing friends.

Marvin: And, you know, we've kind of kicked around this idea, you know,

Marvin: you have so much knowledge of the sport and the history of the sport that it'd

Marvin: be kind of interesting to bring you on periodically to kind of talk about,

Marvin: you know, fly fishing legends.

Marvin: And we thought we would start with Lee Wolfe. And, you know,

Marvin: I guess, Jack, the first question is, when did you first meet Lee?

Jack: Well, it was interesting. I met him kind of by accident. The first time I feel

Jack: like I really met him was my father, who never went to any games that I played, never went.

Jack: The only thing he liked to do was go occasionally to the movies.

Jack: And all of a sudden, he said, look, we're going to go see The Longest Day.

Jack: And it did very few. I went fishing with him and all the things that dads do.

Jack: Do, but he was a test pilot before the war and then went through pretty rough flying during the war,

Jack: and he never talked about it, so I got no idea until he died that he had been

Jack: shot down during D-Day, and he was able to fly the plane back to England,

Jack: and And so he wanted to see what it was like, as near as I could tell,

Jack: to see The Longest Day. Now, what that means is they had shorts.

Jack: They had the cartoon, then they had shorts. There were all different kinds of

Jack: shorts. But all of a sudden, there we were in a stream. We walked.

Jack: And it was the short, and it was beautifully filmed, and he had a six-foot rod,

Jack: and he caught this beautiful, probably close to 30 pounds, if you told me, Atlantic salmon.

Jack: And he released it. Now, you've got to realize that was in the 50s.

Jack: And, you know, releasing fish just wasn't in the—I mean, you caught it unless it was too small.

Jack: And, I mean, I was just fascinated. I said, right then, you know,

Jack: my father said nothing about it, and he was more interested in,

Jack: you know, the military part, what he flew over to see.

Jack: So I had that in the back of the mind. This is what I want to do.

Jack: I don't want to fly airplanes like my father. I mean, I had a chance to go to

Jack: the Air Academy, and he went to the very first Air Academy, and he pushed me

Jack: on that vision of Lee Wolf landing that fish.

Jack: Well, as it turned out, I had to get in the military one way or another with

Jack: the Vietnam War going on in 66.

Jack: I'm in college, and I wanted to keep on. They said, oh, join the reserves.

Jack: You'll be able to finish college, and then you can go and do your military service.

Jack: Well, I joined, and six months later, they called the unit up for duty.

Jack: And i had made the friendship of

Jack: randall kaufman who was a

Jack: young kid that uh we kind

Jack: of got to know each other we went in the

Jack: wind rivers together anyway when i got out of the military i called him i said

Jack: you know i i tried to work in california i was an artist uh in the military

Jack: which was kind of an interesting fun job instead of going to the jungles of vietnam but uh,

Jack: You know, I did my duty, then I went into reserve.

Jack: But I said to Randall, go to Wyoming to see if we can start a business.

Jack: He was 18, and I was 19, and we went to Jackson Hole in 1967,

Jack: and the generation of fly fishing was having one of their first conclaves,

Jack: their first really big conclave.

Jack: And we decided, gosh, what do you got to do to learn?

Jack: And he was in Southern California, and that was where the hotbed of these clubs

Jack: started. It spread through Oregon, actually started in Oregon,

Jack: but California had the Jews.

Jack: So all of a sudden, Jackson was a really small town there.

Jack: This guy stopped me, and it was Bob Lewis who was given the task of getting

Jack: the guides for the Federation because they needed guys to take the celebrities fishing.

Jack: And I said, look, I don't have a boat. And he said, oh, I got a boat,

Jack: will you? Old military ramp, that's what everybody used, or no drip boat.

Jack: And he said, I'll just show up. And so I told my friends I'm going to row the boat.

Jack: So we all went to the big banquet barbecue they had, and the next day was taking fishing.

Jack: And we got a chance to meet a guy in the shop.

Jack: His name was Dennis Black, which would be one of the most influential fly fishermen ever.

Jack: And nobody knew who he was and

Jack: only a few people did but he changed fly

Jack: fishing forever because he started umpqua feather merchants in 1972 which randall

Jack: and i helped him when he came to friends now okay what does this tie into lee

Jack: wolf well the next day who do i get i don't know how they They picked him,

Jack: but I got Lee Wolfe and,

Jack: oh, gosh, terrible, but I remember the guy that was Arnold Gingrich,

Jack: who was the publisher of Esquire magazine,

Jack: which was a huge magazine back then. And.

Jack: Here was Lee Wolf. And all they did was needle each other.

Jack: I thought, why don't they care about the fishing? They told jokes.

Jack: They needled each other. Lee wasn't particularly a – he was a pretty serious guy.

Jack: But he did like Arnold Schumer. And it was pretty sharp.

Jack: And he just took it. And I thought, man, this guy's a cool dude.

Jack: You know, being in the – at that time, everything was rad and cool.

Jack: And we love the baseball boys.

Jack: I just hit it off with him.

Jack: And what I liked is he was thought outside of the box, which I did too.

Jack: We just hit it off. And he said, look, what are you doing?

Jack: He says, I don't know. We're going to start a fly tying operation.

Jack: He said, well, there's no money in that.

Jack: He said, you're going to be guiding? I said, oh, yes, I'm going to guide.

Jack: And I told him I just got out of the military. And he loved flying.

Jack: And, of course, we're in a flying family.

Jack: We got into lots of conversations about flying.

Jack: And he said, look, I'm going to be doing a show in Los Angeles.

Jack: And I want you to come and do a little booth and see if you can drum up some business.

Jack: And I'll get you introduced into the fly fishing world. It was in Los Angeles.

Jack: And I went. And I got a chance. He was building us. He was working for Garcia at the time.

Jack: The fin fishing world had the money.

Jack: And they were trying to get into the fly fishing business, using him as a way

Jack: to do it. He was designing reels.

Jack: And he designed a pretty good saltwater reel. I'd never gone saltwater fly fishing.

Jack: And we set up a trip, got a chance to catch Bonita. And it kind of started right there.

Jack: From that time, he had just married Joan, and she was absolutely wonderful.

Jack: And they just kind of took me under their wing.

Jack: And I kind of thought that sports shows seemed to be the way.

Jack: There was no fly fishing shows in those days.

Jack: They would have fly fishing companies at the shows. They were big sports shows

Jack: with boats and all the stuff. And, you know, I learned from him about how you do presentations.

Jack: And it kind of right there, we just kind of started keeping in touch.

Jack: One of the key things was Kurt Gowden.

Jack: And I met Kurt at a TU.

Jack: I have to admit, I was really, I loved the American sport. And Kirk was from Wyoming.

Jack: He was like a legendary sportscaster.

Jack: And, you know, being from my part of the world, you couldn't help but love his love of fly fishing.

Jack: And I thought, God, he needs to do a show in Jackson. That's where the beauty of Wyoming is.

Jack: And I said, I'm going to go down there and meet him and talk him into an American

Jack: sportsman show. I went, nobody.

Jack: You know, I just started flying flies, had a little shot.

Jack: Randall had figured that Jackson was too cold. He left after four months when

Jack: it got down to 40 below zero. He was back to California.

Jack: But he ended up in Oregon meeting up with Dennis Black, and that friendship

Jack: went on until Dennis died.

Jack: But what happened there is I had to borrow all the money.

Jack: It was like $150 to fly to Denver. I didn't know anybody, but I got an invitation

Jack: to go to the first Colorado Trout Unlimited meeting.

Jack: They had all the board members except for Bing Crosby there.

Jack: Kurt was there, all the people that started it.

Jack: And I didn't know anybody in there. You couldn't even get near Kurt.

Jack: There were so many people talking to him.

Jack: This one guy grabbed me and said, look, you need to meet Kurt Gowdy.

Jack: He pushed to the crowd. He was an old friend of Kurt and said,

Jack: I said, this is Jack Dennis. He's a guy in Jackson, Wyoming.

Jack: Jack Dennis. Jack Dennis. Never heard of you.

Jack: I said, you're a good guy? I said, I'm a good guy, and I grew up on the Snake River.

Jack: He says, well, you know, I'm thinking about doing an American sports show there.

Jack: He said, let's talk about it.

Jack: So Ernie Schwieber was giving a presentation. We were sitting down there,

Jack: and, of course, he was a big gun back in those days.

Jack: And it was funny because he said, look, I've heard enough of him.

Jack: Let's go. And he gathered up his friends, and we went to a restaurant where

Jack: Louis Armstrong was playing.

Jack: And I was with the president of Frontier and one of the cores.

Jack: It was like all the elite Denver was with him. They were supporting Trout Unlimited.

Jack: And he said, all he wanted to do was talk about fishing.

Jack: And, I mean, I'm just like way out of my element.

Jack: The good thing was that I'd been used to being around these kind of people because

Jack: my father, after the war, flew for Warner Brothers,

Jack: and he flew for the movie companies up and eventually for a baseball company.

Jack: So I was around people, and I knew how to keep my mouth shut,

Jack: which I don't know about now, but – and – and – and –.

Jack: Kurt, he just made it all happen. The governor of Wyoming, Stan Hathaway, had called.

Jack: But the nice thing is my grandfather, I'd spent every summer,

Jack: literally, of my life with my grandfather in Jackson.

Jack: And he had a big ranch there, and he was well-known to the community.

Jack: Our family had come from Philadelphia in 1916.

Jack: They didn't live in Jackson, but they had ranches, and they were from a well-to-do family.

Jack: So my grandfather had a really good reputation, as did my dad in Jackson,

Jack: and they got behind it, and we did this show.

Jack: And it turned out to be the most viewed and most popular show in the American sports business.

Jack: Very few of those shows ever would

Jack: qualify for a rerun. It was rerun three times, one after a Super Bowl.

Jack: And it was just a pleasure working with Curt.

Jack: And we had Phil Harris, who at that time was one of the neatest guys,

Jack: part of the Rat Pack, and just funny.

Jack: And it was an amazing time.

Jack: So where does Lee fit into this? Well, all he would talk about is stories about Lee.

Jack: And, of course, knowing that, and, you know, we didn't have cell phones in the

Jack: day, and long distance was really expensive.

Jack: But Curt, you know, he was doing well.

Jack: We'd get on the phone, and we'd have the double line and talk with Lee.

Jack: And I get to see Lee during the sports shows. And, of course...

Jack: Our friendship kept going, and when he was doing one of his books,

Jack: Lee Wolf on Flies, he called me and said, look, would you mind if I take your

Jack: concept for your book where you're holding the fly in front of your face?

Jack: I thought, why in the world would the best-known fly station in the world call

Jack: me to ask permission to do that?

Jack: I was, like, dumbfounded. and so it actually.

Jack: We were we were in Jackson when Kurt came every year he became like a second

Jack: father to me I went to the funerals rode into the hearse with the body with Kurt and you know,

Jack: but he was originally Lee had come to us I'll never forget this he called us

Jack: and my wife knew where I was fishing and we were having cocktails,

Jack: at this ranch that

Jack: nobody could fish and Kurt was a bit

Jack: of a Lee and Kurt were both they kind

Jack: of stretched it and like this lady's rules

Jack: were that you had to use dry flies and

Jack: Kurt loved mudflat minnow and so

Jack: did Lee and so we were fishing there and

Jack: we came in for cocktails tails were sitting there in this lady's house

Jack: that she had uh charlie russell uh uh bronzes you know in a room look at there

Jack: here's a two hundred thousand dollar bronze next to you and we call as you get

Jack: old you gotta call some glee wolf.

Jack: And he was telling Kurt about, you need instant decision about what fly would

Jack: you pick if you only had one fly.

Jack: He said he was doing an article for Outdoor Live on if you only had one fly.

Jack: And so Kurt immediately said, hey, I'll pick the muddler middle.

Jack: Because I just caught three great big cutthroats on it.

Jack: And this lady's listening to and I thought, boy,

Jack: I better not I couldn't remember whether I had enough guts to say I was using,

Jack: because she looked at me and she looked at him and he was on the board of the.

Jack: Buffalo Bill Museum and she was in awe of Kirk and I thought,

Jack: man, is this guy going to get away with it?

Jack: And so when I got on the phone, she had said nothing to him.

Jack: And I said, mother mental.

Jack: At that time, it was because she'd used it as a dryer or wet.

Jack: And I don't know what he said to her, but he got away with it.

Jack: And so they're kind of where their lead was real interested And he always believed

Jack: that man was a competitive animal,

Jack: and he wrote a wonderful piece about the one-fly after he had a chance to experience it.

Jack: And that was probably the thing.

Jack: All of a sudden, and this would have been in the late 80s, we started the one-fly.

Jack: It took, you know, I mean, that's a whole program on how that started.

Jack: But we made it happen.

Jack: Thanks to Kurt. Kurt wanted to have a one-fly.

Jack: After hearing that, he had gone to the Lander one-shot antelope hunt,

Jack: which was a contest where you had one shell.

Jack: And there were teams, and the teams would consist sometimes of astronauts.

Jack: Ray Rogers, all kinds of people that like to hunt, go out and do this,

Jack: and it was ran by the Shoshone Indians,

Jack: and a lot of gala to it, and Kurt said, you know, why don't we have a one-fly

Jack: like that for fly fishing?

Jack: Well, you got to realize, this was like 1972 or three, and...

Jack: You know, that fly fishing gig honestly wasn't that big. That was the starting

Jack: of the Fly Fisherman magazine.

Jack: And they said, well, you know, I don't care. We're starting it and we're doing it.

Jack: And we would go out and I would hire one of our guides.

Jack: And we'd go out and have our one fly. His first one was in Dillon, Montana.

Jack: And we kind of made up, Kurt made up the rules. And he would announce it like

Jack: he was doing the Super Bowl.

Jack: And he could imitate anybody's voice. And he had a pretty good Lee Wolf voice, too.

Jack: He would go back to Lee and say, Lee, what do you think of this?

Jack: And, hey, Howard Cosell, he had a perfect Howard Cosell.

Jack: And he would mimic him.

Jack: And people would go down the river and they'd hear that voice, which they knew.

Jack: And they'd turn around and look at this. And it was great fun.

Jack: And so one of the ones we were doing, and we do it every year.

Jack: And I want to say this about 1976 and, uh, Kurt was saying, I'm going to beat you this time.

Jack: And I said, he'd never beat me. And I was competitive. He was competitive.

Jack: And we went right down and we're getting to the landing and I'm up by one point.

Jack: I need to catch a fish over 10 inches to beat him.

Jack: And we're the guy do work for me to make sure I got it. He went down the right-hand

Jack: bank where the takeout was as far as he could go. Nothing.

Jack: And I'm reeling in and going across in the middle of the river.

Jack: The Snake River doesn't have fish in the middle of the river.

Jack: They're along the banks. All of a sudden, I have a fish on.

Jack: Trolling a fly. God, he just said, that's it. That's it.

Jack: He was so mad. He said, look, you've got to do a contest so I can fish against somebody besides you.

Jack: Well, we made it happen. It only took another 10 to 1986.

Jack: Now, what this brings in talking about Lee Wolf.

Jack: During that time, I'm going all over the country to lecture, do programs.

Jack: I did 40-something years of sports shows and TV shows and all kinds of things.

Jack: And I would visit Lee and Joan up on their place on the Beaverkill.

Jack: And it was really wonderful spending the time.

Jack: And he and I would talk about the one fly and he said, man, I'd love to fish

Jack: it. Joan said, so would I.

Jack: So in 1990, he was sent it up. Now that's four years into it. And Lee was so excited.

Jack: And we remember sitting there with him on the porch, and his Piper Cub was on

Jack: his little landing strip at his house.

Jack: And he was right bumped up against Mike Rockefeller, who was the son of Lawrence,

Jack: who really didn't spend much time in Jackson.

Jack: And the Rockefeller family, my grandfather was a banker with Chase Manhattan

Jack: and close friends with the Rockefellers.

Jack: So we kind of had a chance to be around them.

Jack: And Lee was saying, you know, talking about it, he says, you know,

Jack: I really would like to take you. I know you can fly, right?

Jack: I said, yeah, but I'm way out of the license stage. That's all right.

Jack: I'm going to go get my license. And you and I, in the spring,

Jack: we're going to both fly, and we're going to go to my old lodge.

Jack: And I said, I think it would be a fun thing to do with you.

Jack: And during that time, we started talking about, I'd come up with an idea of

Jack: a fly, which I call the Parallel.

Jack: We had been experimenting. We both thought, what a wonderful fly the wolf pattern

Jack: is, but they just don't ride low enough on the surface to match mayflies.

Jack: He had tied the original wolf, which was a white wolf, to imitate big mayflies of Canada. And...

Jack: He had changed, actually, the Royal Whelp, as we know it, really got popularized by Dan Bailey.

Jack: And his next fly was the Gray Wolf. But we started talking about it,

Jack: and I said, you know, I've been working on trying to get a parachute double wing.

Jack: It would be more stable in the water. It would float close to the surface.

Jack: It would be really good in slow-moving water. And that's where he said he used

Jack: to cut the hackle off of a lot of his flies.

Jack: He would tie the flies on the bank with his hands. He'd have a little packet

Jack: with him if he wanted to change flies.

Jack: Lee would never say that he was an accomplished tier, but he knew how to tie

Jack: what he needed, and he had enough fly tying friends he never lacked for flies.

Jack: So we we discussed this

Jack: and he was working on plastic things pretty interesting

Jack: he was taking plastic and taking like a

Jack: squirrel stacked squirrel and sticking it in the plastic it would dry it would

Jack: be permanent he'd wrap brown hackle around the uh the post he'd make a plastic

Jack: post and he was working on trying to get a post up that would be a y if you can envision a y.

Jack: And I said, the problem is I can't go, the threads just, you have to use so

Jack: much thread to do this. You've got to build posts, then you've got to divide the wing.

Jack: The threads were just too big. A 6-0 thread just wouldn't do it, even to a 10 or a 12.

Jack: But it took the development of the threads from deep boy down to an 8-0 thread

Jack: that we could take it smaller. That changed everything. thing.

Jack: Unfortunately, you know, Lee didn't get to see the completed fly, but he knew about it.

Jack: And he was so excited. I ended up writing several articles for books on the whole process.

Jack: And it was really funny because when Joan read it, she called me on the phone

Jack: and said, you know, I learned things about Lee that I didn't know.

Jack: Because he would tell me things about his life life that he,

Jack: I don't think he would discuss with his wife. He said he was a terrible husband.

Jack: Joan teamed him and all kinds of interesting things, but he was a thinker.

Jack: And as Joan put it, he was a visionary. He was an idealist.

Jack: He was not a teacher. I'm the teacher. What he did was was inspire people.

Jack: He inspired me to be a guide. He inspired me to get better at fly tying.

Jack: He inspired me to learn to listen, to listen to his stories.

Jack: And you know, at seven, almost 77, they come to me and then they go away.

Jack: They come to me and go away.

Jack: I remember him telling me about how he invented the fly vest.

Jack: And I have this actually on film.

Jack: I have all kinds of archives of film on tape that are really interesting. But I have this one.

Jack: He's talking about, Kurt Gowdy asked him, he said.

Jack: Didn't you invent the fly vest? He says, oh, yeah. He says, it made sense. in.

Jack: Pockets to hold your flies and everything. He said, well, how'd you do it?

Jack: He says, well, I sewed it myself.

Jack: I went to Macy's and bought a sewing machine. He said, the directions were on it.

Jack: He said, I just did it. It just made sense. And of course, that vest is in the museum, the Catskills.

Jack: He was such an inspirer. He jumped in the river to prove that you could swim with waders on.

Jack: If you knew what you were doing, you were safe in waders if you prepared them right.

Jack: And he wasn't really, he told me, I wasn't really sure I was right, but I had to prove it.

Jack: And this was, I mean, he's the only fly fisherman, sorry Lefty Craig,

Jack: but he was the only fly fisherman who had a whole page in Newsweek magazine of his death.

Jack: I have a fabulous us and you write as the new york times wrote in one page the

Jack: life of woody and and so let's go back because there's so much to this one flight

Jack: so we're at the one flight.

Jack: And this is his first one. And we make sure, gosh, we've got to get some.

Jack: So we make sure it gets filmed. And that, of course, is in the film that I posted on my YouTube channel.

Jack: And I'm surprised how few people even were interested in it.

Jack: I go back and forth and wonder how many people are really interested in history.

Jack: But I look at the group Classic Twyfishers, and they've got over 25,000 people

Jack: that are interested, at least the history of the equipment and the flies and everything.

Jack: But I often wonder, is this generation going to look back like we did?

Jack: I look back on Lee, and my favorite book was a book called Flies by J.

Jack: Edson Leonard, which had letters

Jack: from Dan Bailey and every one of the fly tires from the 20s and before.

Jack: He published it in 1950 and it had fabulous letters about, he would ask them

Jack: to explain this pattern.

Jack: If you haven't seen this book, you really need to see it. There's a history

Jack: of fly fishing in this book.

Jack: Steelhead fishlings on the west coast, names that are embraced and blazed in

Jack: fly fishing history right there.

Jack: And I really was lucky to have got to meet him at a speaking engagement and

Jack: I asked him which was the best letter that was in there he said by far Bob Carmichael

Jack: from your Jackson home and it's just beautiful rewritten.

Jack: So we go back to Lee and the one he's fishing with Kurt Gowdy how could you

Jack: not do it little as they would know although I,

Jack: And they just had great dialogue. We got as much as we could on it.

Jack: And Chuck Yeager was there.

Jack: And Lee was telling me about his 80th birthday, being on a carrier, how he loved flying.

Jack: By the way, we were sitting there in his place, and he told me he wanted to

Jack: fly with the plane, and he was going to get qualified in the spring so we could do this trip.

Jack: We were sitting there and Joan served us some strawberries with sour cream and brown sugar.

Jack: And she brought in a glass of wine and we're sitting there looking down there.

Jack: And he says, you know, the greatest things in life start with F.

Jack: I said, yeah. He says, yeah, food, flying, fishing, and you can figure out what the other one is.

Jack: Because we're keeping this a family program.

Jack: I'll never forget that. And Joan goes, Lee, you're just, because she heard the

Jack: last word. She said, you're awful.

Jack: And she says, well, can you do better? And she hugged him and said, no.

Jack: Why do you think I married?

Jack: It was just, going back to the one fly, I went through all the things he did.

Jack: He sat down and talked with Chuck Yeager.

Jack: And he was his hero. And he had talked about being able to have his birthday

Jack: on the carrier and all the broke out with the MC.

Jack: And he just told me he couldn't have had a better life.

Jack: At that point, Joan's wife, or mother, who lived to a long age like Joan has, had gotten sick.

Jack: And she said, look, I've got to go back to New Jersey.

Jack: Lee's going to the fly tackle dealer. I know you're going.

Jack: And he said, can you take care of Lee's until I get back?

Jack: And then take him, if I don't get back, I'm taking him to Denver to the tackle show.

Jack: And so I spent two magical weeks with Lee fishing and talking that,

Jack: you know, I treasure to this day.

Jack: And the funny thing, this is Oliver owned this fabulous spring creek.

Jack: Actually, she had bought one of my family's properties.

Jack: She found out that I was from the Nears family, which all of a sudden I could

Jack: fish anytime on her property.

Jack: And I bought Lee Wolf. And I remember she's at now, you got to realize she's

Jack: in her eighties, he's 86 and she's watching him fish and he says, yeah, what a stud he is.

Jack: Yeah. It's just gal probably worth half a million. I mean, 500 million or more.

Jack: He said, I said, I'm sorry, Emily, but he's taken. He says, I know,

Jack: but by must be by a much younger woman.

Jack: So and by the way he got away with putting a nymph under his fly and she didn't say a word,

Jack: and uh i put a nymph under the fly and one of her workmen told her and i got

Jack: i got read the riot act for using a nymph on her property,

Jack: just depends on who you are that's the way life is in the world indeed.

Marvin: Do you have any other kind of particularly memorable fishing trips you took with Lee?

Jack: Well, you know, we did one on the South Fork.

Jack: And when I had the chance with Lee and Kurt, I was not going to let this go by.

Jack: Because Kurt said, I just got a feeling this is the last time Lee and I are going to see each other.

Jack: And they both were anxious to film. And we just went filming.

Jack: And I remember, you know, I'm in the building, I'm watching the whole thing.

Jack: And so a lot of mine was, oh, we'll get back to a memorable one.

Jack: Sorry, at this age, they come to me and they flash fly.

Jack: But anyway, he wanted to catch this one fish. And what he wanted to do,

Jack: we sat there and the camera was going, how much of this do I film?

Jack: I said, you know, just keep filming. We can always erase it.

Jack: Thank God for video. and this fish is rising over there and he refused to change the fly.

Jack: He turned around to the guide, Gary Wilman, who was probably one of the best

Jack: fishing guides I've ever had.

Jack: We called him the predator.

Jack: He was that kind of guy. And,

Jack: Wayne tried all these different techniques. Finally, he pushed the fly and the

Jack: fish took it. And this is after half an hour.

Jack: And the guy who was just dumbfounded, the guy, he said, yes,

Jack: all I had to do was figure it out. Because you can make fish.

Jack: And it was a good point. It was really a good point.

Jack: And it changed this guy's life. line he learned how to be more disciplined and

Jack: he said i would have never done that well the rest of his life he did that and

Jack: in the other situation we're fishing a spring creek and uh jones there,

Jack: and uh she notices i'm i'm fishing a two-way because you really like those light

Jack: rods and i I said, gentlemen, they just land so soft on the water.

Jack: And casting is everything. And if you're going to spook fish,

Jack: I learned that from starting out as a kid all by myself, fishing the hard water.

Jack: Everybody said, why don't you go to the snake? You can catch all the fish you

Jack: want on that. Why do you want to catch the hard fish?

Jack: I'd go on my hands and knees. I'd get defeated.

Jack: But I knew exactly what you had to do. The lighter you could present the fly,

Jack: presentation was everything, but in the casting makes the presentation.

Jack: And I learned about that. And so she was talking about, I was telling her how

Jack: the three weights were, you know, you can use a three weight anywhere in the world for trout,

Jack: you know, unless you got to throw great big streamers, but for normal trout

Jack: fishing. And she says, I really like that.

Jack: And Lee said, look, tell me how you both understand this. And tell me how you cast.

Jack: A two or three-way i was like what i'm going to show you how to cast it she says yeah,

Jack: you can always learn you don't have to be eight and five to stop learning and

Jack: i i told them the attributes of it and and they said well he said i want your

Jack: rod and he first the rest of the day with me.

Jack: I think that was a two-weight at that time. Two-weight Scott.

Jack: That was memorable. Then we had the cameras and interviewing Joan and Lee about this.

Jack: The most important thing I think I learned from him was the value of fly fishing

Jack: and your wife to handle the other things that don't go right.

Jack: And he talked about his divorces and how fishing may have caused that.

Jack: And he said, every time I would have something that upset me,

Jack: I could go away and fish and come back like it never happened.

Jack: And I think if your listeners there pretty much understand that.

Jack: All it takes is, and Lee, like myself, liked to fish alone.

Jack: And not that, you know, I do lots of boat fishing. I still row down the river.

Jack: But nothing beats getting out on your own.

Jack: I spent a bunch of time in New Zealand as a consultant.

Jack: And by the way, Lee really wanted to go to New Zealand.

Jack: And the one flight kind of helped that way because, you know,

Jack: he ended up passing away. And I feel so much responsible because he was qualifying for our trip.

Jack: But we had his license since I didn't have one.

Jack: I grew up in a family and knew how to fly. And he ended up having,

Jack: John thought he made a mistake, but the instructor lived.

Jack: What happened when he was coming in to land on final, the aorta bust and flooded

Jack: his cavity and he died instantly.

Jack: He fell on the stick in the front of the plane.

Jack: And he was six foot three or four,

Jack: six three or something like that and he played basketball for Stanford and baseball

Jack: for Stanford he was an incredibly good athlete.

Jack: So he still weighed enough where the guy could pull it up and they had a dead stick landing,

Jack: and luckily the guy survived and told Joan Joan, that he had passed his test,

Jack: which made her feel good that he didn't make a mistake.

Jack: And that was very touching when Joan called.

Jack: And I went back several times to help her try to figure out what to do with everything.

Jack: It was a tough time for her.

Jack: And I just think we have a very special relationship, Joan and I.

Jack: And it doesn't mean you have to talk all the time. you just feel it every time

Jack: we'd be at a show together she'd stop and we'd go talk and she would let anybody

Jack: interrupt us until we were done but.

Jack: She said Lee mellowed a lot in his early age and I you know I remember him from

Jack: the time I first met him to the time he died and there was a man in that 20 years,

Jack: yeah a little over 20 years that really understood how life was.

Jack: And he let Kurt Gowdy, let a few people in to his life. Very similar to Ted Williams.

Jack: Kurt compared the two of them as both legends in their sport.

Jack: And not because of what they accomplished, accomplish, but how they felt and

Jack: how they gained as close to perfection as you can.

Jack: I remember Ted telling me, he says, think of baseball.

Jack: You fail six times out of 10, and you're the greatest hitter that ever lived. You fail seven out of 10.

Jack: You're in the major leagues. You fail eight out of ten, you don't play.

Jack: He says, life is about overcoming failures.

Jack: And I think every time you lose a fish, every time you go, you learn something.

Jack: And then eventually, you don't lose fish.

Jack: And, you know, one thing, Marvin, that I see nowadays, days and I don't know

Jack: Lee how he would take it you know he would hold up,

Jack: the Atlantic salmon and always release them in the early days of the camp they

Jack: would keep the brook trout because they were so good eating in the lakes of Canada,

Jack: you know his gift to the world you know his famous statement is a game fish

Jack: is too valuable to catch only once,

Jack: and there's all kinds of different quotes from him that really,

Jack: truly, the father of catch and release.

Jack: And I have one of the articles that he did for Fly It, Run, Reel.

Jack: He wrote for them when they first came out about he and a friend of mine both

Jack: wrote articles together on the value of catch and release.

Jack: And it had a profound effect.

Jack: And i think i i look uh

Jack: now and and i think what what really

Jack: happened with lee is he gave us the energy to make the one fly work he he gave

Jack: valid he wrote the article giving it praise and it wasn't popular i got a lot

Jack: of hate letters um about i was going to ruin fly fishing it become mike golf when you paid for it.

Jack: And I just, I ended up coaching the world fly fishing team and being a part

Jack: of it just so I could learn from a real contest.

Jack: And they don't kill fish and they have very strict regulations.

Jack: And, you know, there's a competitive edge. But so far in the U.S.,

Jack: what I want is a wonder of these contests to raise money.

Jack: We've raised over $20 million in stream improvement projects,

Jack: all stream improvement projects.

Jack: And you can go to the streams and see what the work has done.

Jack: But what we've done is inspired other clubs. I would say there's close to 200

Jack: contests throughout here in Canada, and none of them have cash prizes.

Jack: They're there for fun.

Jack: And I think I look back on that, And I wish more people would understand that.

Jack: And it's about the flies.

Jack: My God, what would you ever...

Jack: The Chernobyl came from the guides of the Green River. I was there when it was designed and made.

Jack: And it was a fly that was pounded. And then you had the double bunny.

Jack: And then you had the church tarantula.

Jack: You had a whole series of flies that are in the fly fisheries repart. apart.

Jack: And so there's so many advantages to what this has been to highlight flies and

Jack: highlight becoming a better fisherman.

Jack: And it's fun.

Jack: I couldn't tell you who even won last year or who won because I don't care.

Jack: I don't care who wins. Everybody having a good time.

Jack: We raised a lot of money with our bank and I think it was about $600,000 last

Jack: year and I sit back and look at all these people and what fun they're having in fly fishing,

Jack: when Kurt and I envision just

Jack: a simple little contest has become honored now

Jack: by the American Museum of Fly Fishing we're

Jack: receiving their Heritage Award

Jack: award um and on april 18th

Jack: we get a preliminary award where we go to

Jack: the new york english club and to their in the american fly fishing museum fundraiser

Jack: and we we do this wonderful film it's on the ifa for a film tour called tension

Jack: and we've been allowed to show that at at the event,

Jack: And so it's really fun to see, you know, getting the recognition.

Jack: And you can't be any prouder. I feel like I've done about everything I could

Jack: to try to, you know, I've touched a lot of things, Mark.

Jack: It's been a wonderful float.

Marvin: Yeah, and it's amazing, too, because I've been, we were talking before we started

Marvin: recording, Jack, you know, You've been incredibly busy putting some of your

Marvin: kind of older, more original content on your YouTube channel.

Jack: Yeah, it, you know, I just, I got into it too late.

Jack: I didn't really understand. I didn't, you know, we were moving to North Carolina,

Jack: and ended up having to start over after I went up to 5,000.

Jack: Didn't understand, you know, YouTube had kind of led all the people to believe

Jack: that, especially in the fly fishing film, that they monitor what was copyrighted or not.

Jack: And everybody threw in whatever they could find, you know, from old stuff.

Jack: And all of a sudden, you know, DVD market had fell and all this stuff was out there.

Jack: Everybody's putting my stuff on. I didn't, I'll tell you, I couldn't afford

Jack: to copyright and they cost so much.

Jack: And the market was so small. I mean, you had a bestseller at 5,000 DVDs,

Jack: Although I did the Cabela's and they sold,

Jack: I mean, we sold 50,000 or more learning to fly fish.

Jack: I think the whole total was about 200,000.

Jack: You know, we also made them priced reasonably. And, you know,

Jack: to pay for a DVD for $30, just, I mean, what's happened is YouTube has made it really good now.

Jack: But it takes a lot of time. And, you know, I'm trying.

Jack: People find I saved a bunch of live

Jack: fly time from seminars when I was the producer of the Fly Time Theater.

Jack: And, you know, I show those. those. I've got a lot of stuff back there.

Jack: It's just how much time do I devote to it for so little return other than the

Jack: satisfaction at this age that somebody liked it.

Marvin: Yeah. And I'll drop a link to your channel in the show notes,

Marvin: Jack, so people can check it out.

Marvin: And I guess before I let you go, do you have, you know, maybe one thing you

Marvin: can share about Lee that, you know, maybe folks generally don't know that got

Marvin: to spend some time with him or kind of, you know, remember his public life.

Jack: Oh, yeah. Well, you know, I watched him when he was older years when he was

Jack: pushing these flexible flies at the sports shows.

Jack: And I thought to myself, God, here he is at this age pushing there in a booth,

Jack: where he should be, you know, with a room talking about his life and everything.

Jack: But he was trying to promote, you know, uh well product joan really was the

Jack: one joan had her fly casting school which is still going and she's still a part

Jack: of and but they had the fly line and let me tell you his taper,

Jack: his triangle taper has been matched and copied he sort of trademarked it but

Jack: you know like a lot of things you shouldn't have done you know and i look back

Jack: a hundred times and says boy i I should have done this or that.

Jack: But Lee was, you know, I thought, man, I'm not going to, I don't want to get to that.

Jack: I don't want to be at a booth promoting something in my 80s.

Jack: You know, I thought about, well, one of the things I can really do is go talk

Jack: about creating a sports show. And they don't seem to be interested in it.

Jack: I mean, I've never really, I've done it. I ran a sports show in Salt Lake City,

Jack: a fly fishing show with another guy and I for about seven years.

Jack: And after the pandemic, I moved and it went on to other people.

Jack: But I know how hard it is to produce that.

Jack: But I just saw the mood that nobody seemed to care about it.

Jack: And yet, you know, I find a few people that are still interested in it.

Jack: But there was a time, I think, how important I had the picture of Lee time at a 28.

Jack: I got it in my drawer right here. A 28 gray hackle peacock.

Jack: And in his hand, and I'm looking at it, and Yvon Chouinard is looking at it. I invited Yvon.

Jack: I thought he could learn a lot from Lee.

Jack: I've known Yvon since he was a climber in the Tetons.

Jack: He was living in his car when he first got there, and I was a young guy moving

Jack: the climbers back and forth after hours. Nobody wanted to stay there because

Jack: the climbers' time frame was their own.

Jack: And so I'd just go over there, park the boat, and fish.

Jack: And Yvonne would always ask me what I was doing. And he caught the fishing bug.

Jack: And we've gone through our lives with watching Yvonne grow into what he is today.

Jack: But he was so impressed. So he tied one for me and tied one for Yvonne.

Jack: And I'm sure he has that. But his abilities, oh boy,

Jack: I wish I could, you know, the way to put it in the man is a deep thinker who's always thinking.

Jack: And his personality went to the person that he was, he would show what he wanted

Jack: to to the person asking the question.

Jack: He had great respect that anybody that had risen in his field.

Jack: And he would give them more time or anybody that's coming up.

Jack: My guides loved it. He went out during that two weeks. He went out more with the guides.

Jack: I was wrapping up one fly during that time. And the guides just loved him.

Jack: And he would give them a fly. I mean, each one of those guys had the flies. flies.

Jack: And I think after he died, Joan sent me a fly, which is not to stay in my family.

Jack: And it was his fly from the book, The Art of the Fly.

Jack: And he said, this was Lee's most treasured fly.

Jack: So I always felt that he kind of passed. Oh, and he loved my Royal Humpy.

Jack: Oh, geez, he just loved it. He loved the Humpy, couldn't see it.

Jack: He was very abysmal. type of guy. He liked his drive slides so he could see them.

Jack: That's why he put the when he started out, of course, I don't know how many

Jack: people know, but he started out with Bucktail.

Jack: And Lee had this wonderful friendship with Dan Bailey.

Jack: And Dan Bailey said, look, you got the wrong material. And well,

Jack: that's not how you start off with Lee.

Jack: But Dan convinced him.

Jack: That he could show him how. And And he took care of Lee. I mean,

Jack: they didn't have any kind of program like they have now.

Jack: That was developed by Umpqua, where you got paid for a pattern.

Jack: A man I can't imagine, but he never had to worry about anything.

Jack: Dan Bailey just took wonderful care. And I'm sure at the end of each year, he sent him a check.

Jack: But he's the one that really developed the Wolf pattern into what they are,

Jack: changing them over to what they called in those days, Kip-Tails.

Jack: Nobody wanted to call it a cast tail impala tail that was always the best one in power like.

Jack: You know, and, uh, but he, uh, what, you know, that's amazing what you can gather

Jack: from, uh, from people. Uh, he was simple.

Jack: He didn't want to, I mean, he was more interested in the approach and fly fishing, what the fly was.

Jack: He was interested in, in figuring out the situation. He liked to go one-on-one with the fish.

Jack: I was able to film his last fish he caught in Wyoming. I thought for a long

Jack: time it was the last fish he ever caught.

Jack: But he did do a piece just like three months before he died.

Jack: So when he was in the one fly, that was about four years or four months,

Jack: I mean, before he died. He died in February.

Jack: But he did a deal on his home river, which is wonderful. But you could tell

Jack: he had lost his energy since the one fall. It's just like you're looking at two different people.

Jack: For whatever time, you could just see that, the difference in the two people in a few months.

Jack: But he did it. He only caught some fish. But it was real fishing adventure when we had him.

Jack: And we just let him go out on his own.

Jack: And we filmed it. And we just watched everything. And I got this all on film.

Jack: And eventually, I will get to where we put it on YouTube.

Jack: I just...

Jack: Kurt interviewed him about his life. And it was very...

Jack: I don't know how to put the word, but not melodramatic, but sad in some ways,

Jack: the way he viewed himself.

Jack: He viewed Kurt as a much bigger, you're famous and everything,

Jack: you're better at your job than I was.

Jack: And Kurt's trying to tell him, no, you're not.

Jack: You rose to the top of the field.

Jack: But you know i could see the reluctance and

Jack: lee said you know you just there is no such thing as

Jack: a professional fly fishing and they can make any money he

Jack: says the lucky i had a career in advertising and they had people that were very

Jack: good to they did he said i i couldn't have lived on this and and i think he

Jack: had a lot of the skepticism about where fly fishing was going to go and.

Jack: You know it has gotten bigger and I'm sure you you know if you look at all the

Jack: rod companies are all owned by except for St.

Jack: Croix they're owned by well-to-do people that can afford to be in it you know

Jack: you look at Orvis the Orvis family and you know the rod guarantees I always

Jack: saw it when they put those lifetime warranties that was going to drive up the price,

Jack: and it made the company virtually unsellable,

Jack: And, you know, the same people pretty much still own it.

Jack: Thomas and Thomas went to several owners and everything, but it's kind of where

Jack: things are. And I see Lee saw that.

Jack: And he talked, you know, and I looked at his boxes,

Jack: and I have to laugh because three of the best fishermen I know have old boxes

Jack: and they just throw all the flies in.

Jack: Randall Coffin is the most organized writer I've ever been around.

Jack: And I open up his fly box. I say, hey, get out of catter.

Jack: He goes through about three boxes to find it. It's not even separated out.

Jack: And I realized, you know, I'm that way too, but I have to do it to make it look good.

Jack: People see that, they'll look at me and say, what are you doing?

Jack: But Lee was that way too.

Jack: He wasn't super organized, except for his thinking.

Jack: I know, here's the thing, as Joan said, he was the ultimate predator,

Jack: especially in the ocean fishing.

Jack: And he says, look, ocean fishing is easy, you just got to find,

Jack: once you find them, they're not hard to catch, but you got to find them and that's hard.

Jack: And I asked him what kind of fishing you like the best.

Jack: This is a great answer. He said, whatever I'm fishing for, it's the best right then.

Jack: And I thought, man, is that ever true?

Jack: Wherever I'm at, whether it's bone fishing or in South America or where,

Jack: in New Zealand especially.

Jack: New Zealand was where I learned the most about fly fishing.

Jack: And Australia, wherever it may depend, it's great.

Jack: And one of the things he said, you know, you can build any number of golf courses.

Jack: You know, golf will get it, but you can't build new trout streams.

Jack: And the only thing we've got is to protect them is catching release.

Jack: That's on this tape. And that just really hit. And that made me,

Jack: now that was filmed in 1990.

Jack: And he died in 91. And that has stuck with me and stuck with me when we turned

Jack: the OneFly into an organization to rebuild strings. It hit.

Jack: I can tell you right now, fishing is better on the Snake River and pretty much

Jack: all the rivers I fish than when I was a guide in the 60s.

Jack: Fishing is better. Better on the green. It's better. I mean,

Jack: go on South Fork, Lake River.

Jack: I can't speak for Montana because I didn't fish it when I was really young. Yellowstone is better.

Jack: The Yellowstone Lake's coming back with great big cutthroats that can survive the Mackinac.

Jack: They learn to evolve into big fish.

Jack: You do believe 11-pound cutthroats caught last year on a fly.

Jack: And Yellowstone Lake, the lake that the Mackinac run.

Marvin: Yeah, it's one of my favorite places to fish. I love fishing the fire hole.

Jack: Yeah, but think of Yellowstone Lake. There were hardly any fish left in the river.

Jack: And they evolved. Of course, they reduced the mackerel population, which helped.

Jack: But the spawning is limited. But it'll come back.

Jack: Nature has a way of doing this. And the nice thing about Yellowstone,

Jack: just the way it is. But, you know, the big problem I see, and the fire hole

Jack: hasn't changed one darn bit.

Jack: You have a little bit of, the rivers do have a little bit of a problem with the buffalo.

Jack: There's far more buffalo than historically there.

Jack: And they have beaten down the bank, but, you know, that's part of nature.

Jack: You know, the fish will survive.

Jack: No stream improvement in Nashville Park.

Marvin: It's interesting though I know the stream banks have recovered since they reintroduced

Marvin: the wolves too that's kind of helped kind of move the elk and the bison kind of off a little bit.

Jack: I don't even want to get into that there's some hard feelings on that that's

Jack: one thing in Jackson that I've learned my wife was an ER nurse there so she's

Jack: got plenty of bear incidents I just,

Jack: And it is so much like everything, a political move.

Jack: I just don't really get an opinion on it, other than there's too many buffalo in Yellowstone Park.

Jack: But, you know, the tourists like them. The park tries to do the best they can with it.

Jack: But there is negative effects. effects, you know, none of those streams flowing

Jack: into the Yellowstone can reproduce fish like they used to because they've been all trampled down.

Jack: And the buffalo wouldn't have been there if a white man hadn't run them in there.

Jack: So you know, where do you go?

Jack: But, you know, I, you know, getting back with Lee is that he saw like a lot

Jack: of people don't remember, you know, trap fishing was really threatened in the 1890s in New York.

Jack: They had pretty much killed all the, the fish that ran up into the rivers and,

Jack: you know, so that it came real, you know, their answer was to have a private

Jack: club, redo the streams, you know, and monitor the fishing.

Jack: And Lee was a product of that, understanding that not only catch and release,

Jack: but trying to undo the damage that was done in the sake of ignorance.

Jack: You know, how much do you value fly fishing?

Jack: You know, what do you put as a value when you look at the people that have done it?

Jack: You know, from the Bush family, you know, really, really got to be interested

Jack: in fly fishing to Dick Cheney, who would rather do anything.

Jack: I asked him, what would his last trip be? He only had one trip. He says, I got it.

Jack: Go to Canada on a steelhead stream all by myself.

Jack: I want it snowing. I don't care if I catch a fish.

Jack: That's my last trip of my life. And he said, now you've got to do your last trip of life.

Jack: And that was going out at 6.30 at night and spending all night fishing a crane fly hatch.

Jack: That was my last trip. Both said we had to do our last trip before we knew we were going to die.

Jack: And that was kind of Lee. I mean...

Jack: The best time we talked with Lee was when we were eating lunch.

Jack: And he did Kurt and I. And they'd start talking about their old days filming and laughing.

Jack: And he told one story. This is a good one.

Jack: They were filming in Canada. And Lee had this idea of how he was going to do this segment.

Jack: And he wanted to have it. and during the American Sportsman they would let independent

Jack: people Kurt would become the producer, Lee would become the producer,

Jack: and they would, you know, they would set it up hire the cameramen and deliver

Jack: the final product to ABC to be on the show,

Jack: and so they were filming and he said, what I want is to have you Kurt with the

Jack: rod underneath your hand, flies

Jack: out in the water and you're lighting the cigar back then, that was okay.

Jack: And this was during the time of the day when there was no fishing, middle of the day,

Jack: and so what Lee would do and he always looked to cut money, Kirk didn't cut,

Jack: he just paid the best to get the best photographers, but Lee was a cheapskate

Jack: and he would hire a French Canadian cameraman, which he could get for,

Jack: very cheap, now realize you're using and 35-millimeter film,

Jack: which is when edited back then was $1,000 a minute.

Jack: So if you had a 23-minute show, just in that fee is going to be $46,000.

Jack: That's a lot of money back then.

Jack: And so you didn't waste it.

Jack: So Lee's idea was to get a big daredevil without the hook on it,

Jack: cast it out, and get the big brook trout to chase it in.

Jack: And they would take flies on the surface real easily.

Jack: So we'd do that. The fish would come in and send it up. The fish wouldn't take the fly.

Jack: It just went on and on. And Lee was very devoted on doing this.

Jack: He'd look up and see the camera, and they're standing there.

Jack: What they needed to do is once they brought the daredevil in,

Jack: they would then hit the camera and film that.

Jack: Then you'd build it afterwards. And how you did the old shows with film is you

Jack: caught the fish, then you acted out everything before it.

Jack: Now, of course, you can film everything because video doesn't cost anything.

Jack: So he's doing that and doing that. Finally, the fish takes a flight.

Jack: Kurt throws a rod in the air.

Jack: The cigar goes everywhere. He goes, oh, we got it. I've been trying for years to get that.

Jack: He turns around, and there's no cameraman there.

Jack: He yells, did you get it? There's one guy standing there. I said, get what?

Jack: Lee went right up there and just decked the guy.

Jack: So that was another part of it he had a quick temper,

Jack: you gotta take the good with the bad here always said this is how you evaluate

Jack: a friend somebody you want to have a friendship with like a sports game you

Jack: add up all the good things,

Jack: and you got your score then you add up all the bad things and you got your score

Jack: the good things outweigh the bad things you got a friend And.

Marvin: Yeah, that's a novel concept in this day and age, right?

Jack: Yeah, that's the way Kurt really helped me understand what it was to stay in your lane.

Jack: You know, the saddest part of all of these guys, and I know what they mean now

Jack: that I'm 77, is that nobody remembers you after a time.

Jack: When you're in the middle of the battle and everybody knows you,

Jack: then all of a sudden you start on a – I look at life like an airplane.

Jack: You take off. My family was involved in aviation.

Jack: You take off, and I got to be able to fly Boeing jets and simulators and all

Jack: kinds of planes on my adventures, but not wanting to do it as a profession.

Jack: But if you take off, that's what you do.

Jack: You work your way through school, you're doing the college, you're doing everything.

Jack: All of a sudden, you get married, you have kids, and the plane is in what we call cruisimatic.

Jack: Going down, you back off the power, and you enjoy the ride.

Jack: When you get down, all of a sudden, you're going to have to land.

Jack: You've got to bring back the power more, and you start to descend.

Jack: And as you descend, it's each part of your life that all of a sudden you're on final.

Jack: Out comes the gear, and you hope you make a nice off-landing die in bed.

Jack: Anywhere along that climb, that plane can crash. But that was my idea how life was.

Jack: And, you know, everybody says live every day like your last.

Jack: I mean, that's great. I just live every day like it's a day.

Jack: And try to do as many things with friends as you can.

Jack: And that's why people ask me, why did you still row the river at almost 77?

Jack: I said, because that's what you do.

Jack: If I can do it, I'm going to do it as long as I can. Because I get to see beautiful

Jack: skies and be away from people.

Jack: Many times I'd float down and never see a person all day. Think about that.

Jack: Never see a human all day. And you're in a boat. Can't beat it.

Marvin: It's certainly one of the reasons why I like fishing the Rocky Mountain West,

Marvin: although it's gotten a little harder and harder to find that solitude.

Marvin: But I always think, you know, floating in Montana, that, you know,

Marvin: when you kind of get out a little bit and you don't see anybody,

Marvin: that you're literally looking at the landscape exactly the way it was when Lewis and Clark came through.

Jack: Well, that's what I love about Yellowstone. When you go to Yellowstone,

Jack: that was the way it was all the way back.

Jack: Forget the roads to it. Just look out there where there's no roads or trails

Jack: and say, and that's the way it was.

Jack: And of course the wilderness areas, but you have to hike into the older you

Jack: get. You just can't do that. You know, you can't do that.

Jack: So what I like is you just learn to be create.

Jack: The guides have to be there. My grandson's a guide at this, in the shop where

Jack: I guide and where he guides.

Jack: I mean, I don't get where he got and they have to go out at seven 30 and They

Jack: expect it to be back at 530 because all the restaurants close at nine o'clock,

Jack: except for a brew pub closes at 10.

Jack: So you go out at 10 or 11 and you fish dark and you don't see anybody.

Jack: You have to be inventive to not see people. Now, that may not happen on a man

Jack: or something like that, but you'll run into privates, but people want to be

Jack: off the river. They're afraid of the dark.

Jack: They don't feel comfortable rowing, and they don't really.

Jack: The rivers are long. Some of them are 24-mile stretch in one day.

Jack: You have a motor, but if it gets too low, you don't have the motor.

Jack: You know it's it's being inventive I think you know that's what Lee would say

Jack: that he he would just figure a way so he could be alone,

Jack: but meant getting on private property he'd go to private property I don't like

Jack: the deal with private property I had to get on about any private property but

Jack: it comes with a price you the call up I need you to come out and get my buddy

Jack: a casting lesson or take him fishing it always happened when it was on your daughter's birthday

Jack: thing and so i learned

Jack: there's plenty of water out there and and

Jack: uh it just private lamb came with there you know you know if you did it you're

Jack: gonna and then that's rightly so nothing wrong with it just something i don't

Jack: particularly want to do so i i think it's wonderful you know lee has gotten the,

Jack: notoriety of being such an.

Jack: Adventurer. But you think about it right now.

Jack: What is a building now which is so wonderful for the country is that we have

Jack: the fishermen that has the money to travel to,

Jack: Argentina and all over the world now, all these places and bring them money.

Jack: Get people jobs. You know, when I started helping on the travel,

Jack: there were just so few people.

Jack: We were working in New Zealand on trying to figure out how I only had a 38% return rate.

Jack: And I got hired by the government near New Zealand and the tourist commission

Jack: in Frontiers to try to figure out why. Well, it was really simple.

Jack: They were bringing people from Alaska. Right.

Jack: Were used to catching, you know, 50 fish a day, and they just didn't have the skill level.

Jack: So what we did is we brought over, we worked an intricate plan over 10 years

Jack: of bringing fly shop owners for free over there so they could see how difficult the fishing was.

Jack: And so when they booked a person, they knew they were sending them, they were qualified.

Jack: And they targeted at places like Pennsylvania and California and Colorado,

Jack: where they had conditions that were similar to New Zealand.

Jack: And it was just wonderful to watch that grow from one lodge.

Jack: When I started, there was one lodge. It really wasn't a lodge.

Jack: It was called Hookah Lodge.

Jack: And then it built up to where the government helped build lodges up to about six.

Jack: And now I think there's over 60.

Jack: And the fishing has remained really good and it's mainly because the enlightened

Jack: fly fishermen there they're locals,

Jack: they have to be good to catch fish and they have ingrained the catch and release

Jack: and it has become a very important industry for this small country of New Zealand

Jack: and I see that all around the world, I see people,

Jack: I get my texts from my friends in Tasmania.

Jack: I've worked with them, and they're all just saying, boy, we've got to get more cats in the leaves.

Jack: We've got to look at the water levels. They're doing all the stuff that we're

Jack: doing, and now they've got a problem.

Jack: The mainland Australia is protecting the native fares.

Jack: The conservation-minded people want the trout out of Australia.

Jack: Yeah, that's a battle. When you

Jack: consider about every prime minister of Australia has been a fly fisher.

Marvin: Yeah that's uh it's an interesting thing i mean the whole you know native wild

Marvin: thing is an interesting discussion and you know jack i appreciate you spending

Marvin: so much time and you know sharing a perspective on lee that you know most people

Marvin: don't have and you know certainly look forward to you coming back and uh sharing

Marvin: some more stories with us whatever.

Jack: You want to do it and i'm happy to talk about techniques and stuff too not just

Jack: Just the things I've learned out of boats and things.

Jack: Whatever you want. Just try to be relevant.

Marvin: I appreciate that.

Jack: I have a lot more stories.

Marvin: Oh, I know you do. I'm excited to record them and bring them to the listeners.

Intro: Well, folks, I hope you enjoyed that as much as we enjoyed bringing it to you.

Intro: And don't forget to check out The Chocolate Factory on May 4th at Jesse Brown's

Intro: Outdoors. Tight lines, everybody.