Hey, it's Dawn McGrewer, the business growth coach and welcome to dawn of a New Era, the podcast where we talk all things health, wealth and happiness and where founders share the good and bad and ugly of being an entrepreneur.

So welcome, Michelle, to Dawn of a New Era, the podcast.

And honestly, I feel like we've already been chatting so much, like this is just an extension of our.

This is it.

We've got a comfy seat, we're good to go.

So we've just had a little sit outside in the sunshine, which was beautiful, and had a little catch up.

So we're actually from same area in Cheshire, but this is the first time we meet in person.

So thank you for coming on the podcast because we've got so many commonalities in terms of friends, contacts.

But also you started off studying psychology just like me.

And what I would love to know is, obviously many people will know you now from Morning Live, Crime Watch, you know, seeing you on TV and probably from radio as well.

How did your career start?

How did it all begin?

And how did you get into radio and tv?

So I studied psychology at Manchester University, but even going before that, my mum was a life coach, my grandfather was from Ghana and was part of a tribe where they had a chiefhood.

And the chiefhood always used to go down to the youngest son, which was my grandfather at the time.

And the kind of role within the chiefhood was to be that main communicator.

So you really had to understand, understand human behavior.

You had to be able to connect with people and bring a community together essentially.

And I really do feel that those elements almost kind of were passed to my mum and through me, you know, and the three of us used to get together and have conversations.

It was just this real special, almost magical feeling.

And for me, growing up and kind of going through studies, I thought, how can I capture that?

How can I almost format it and make it into something tangible for a career?

So I did psychology at a level at school and I thought actually this, there's so much in it.

I mean, as you know yourself, this, there's so much involved in psychology.

And particularly for me, the, the human behavior side of things was, was what I gravitated towards in particular, really understanding individual differences, what makes us tick, how you can actually connect with people on, on a deeper level.

So decided to study at university.

And in my second year of uni, one of my tutors at, he used to do a lot of work within the media.

So back in the day when Big Brother first started and it was really seen as this social experiment.

He used to go on tv, various different channels and really kind of delve into the psyche of the, you know, the personalities that were going on.

And I found that really interesting, really fascinating that actually you could combine psychology with the media.

And I thought this is an area that I want to explore more.

So in my third year of university, I applied for a work experience placement at BBC Manchester in the entertainment department.

So literally just went on the BBC website, obviously did my research on various different programs that I was interested in.

I'd take down the names of the people at the credits at the end and think, okay, if that's their name, like John Smith.

And I put BBC.co.uk at the end of it, maybe it'll reach them, you know, kind of trying to do a bit of like research before going into my interview.

And I was successful, successful at interview.

So I got a four week unpaid work experience placement at BBC Manchester in the entertainment department.

And that began my journey into the industry, really.

I think it's so fascinating when you think about how proactive you were.

You know, so many barriers are put in front of us and it's just actually having the audacity, isn't it, to reach out and do it.

And it kind of reminds me a little bit of when I did my book.

I did the same thing.

I just went onto the publisher's website, downloaded a proposal and sent it off and prayed that something would happen.

So thinking about when you went into it, we all have an idea, don't we, of, you know, what careers are going to be like.

And then for me again, when I was publishing, I had this kind of like, this is what it's going to do for me, this is how it's going to be.

But maybe the reality wasn't quite the same.

When you got into obviously radio and tv, what was that experience like?

Did you come up against barriers?

Was working in TV at that time easy for a woman?

What was the experience like?

I've done 20 years in telly now and it's almost in two chapters.

So the first 10 years were working in production.

So I started off as work experience and work runner, researcher, assistant producer, producer, up the ranks, as it were.

And then the last 10 years to date have been in front of the camera as a presenter.

So it's kind of almost been.

There's things that are definitely fluid between the two, especially as a woman working in an industry, the media industry.

When I very first started, I didn't know at the Time.

Although my dad used to say to me a lot, I didn't know at the time that presenting in front of the camera was going to be that the place where I would end up.

When I first started, I was like a sponge and I was taking it all in.

And again, I think this probably comes especially from my mum, born and bred in Manchester and just doesn't take any nonsense.

She'd be like, getting in there and you're working hard and you're getting on with that, like, right, okay.

I remember walking in on one of my first days and feeling very overwhelmed because, you know, you'd see celebrities walking around the corridor and, you know, big BBC bosses and it's just me that's almost trying to like, you get this imposter syndrome, thinking, how am I going to convince these people that I've got what it takes?

I don't even know what I've got because I'm day one, what am I doing?

But I remember seeing everybody walking around the corridors and they had their little ID passes, a BBC pass.

And mine at the time was a visitor's pass, work experience, four week pass.

And I'd look around, I think I want one of those.

It was almost for me, like, I've got to take everything step by step.

What's my goal to get to this next point?

The thing first and foremost for me, for all the anxieties, for all the overwhelm and thinking, how am I going to fit in here?

Especially as a mixed race young woman within an industry, which I didn't see a lot of, especially at that time, to early 2000s for me, I just kept going back to that baseline of I'm gonna work really hard here, I'm gonna learn as much as I can possibly learn.

I was working on a documentary at the time and I'm going to use this time to try and really make some strong connections.

Going back to the psychology.

I want to understand the people that I'm working with, tap into their behavior, see how we can connect.

Because especially in tv, you work with a lot of different personalities, a lot of different egos.

And it's about trying to kind of get under the surface of that.

So in some elements it was, I was taking away, not taking away from myself in a negative way, but focusing on other people and how I can understand them more to, to create a position within this industry which was at the time quite alien to me.

So for me, that was the first kind of barrier that I was trying to break, have the confidence to feel like I can be rooted in the space through working hard.

And for me, throughout my career, that has always been the benchmark.

If you're going into any space, if you've done your research, you've prepared, especially with live tv, there's always.

And in life, there's always going to be elements that you can't control.

But if you can walk into a space and feel like you've got the confidence through what you've done behind the scenes, then that's what can carry you through.

I think over the years, across production and presenting, you're working in an industry that is incredibly competitive, that is evolving all the time.

I mean, I work back in the day when Facebook had just started, you know, it was kind of like the dawn of social media.

Absolutely.

You know, and now it's completely different world.

And I get a lot of people messaging me saying, I really want to work in this industry.

How can I be a presenter, how can I be a producer?

And the thing that I always go back to when people ask me is, what research have you done to get to this point?

You know, what have you looked into?

I say, well, what are you interested in?

What would you like to do in telly?

And certain people will respond and say, well, actually, I like this type of program.

I watch this, this, these are my interests.

And certain people will say, I've got no idea.

But I'd just like to work in the industry.

And for me, that's not doing enough research.

That's not going to be preparation.

It's like, you've got to lead with your passion.

Yeah.

And the people who have the passion will be the people who did or do what you did, where you didn't know the email, but you researched and found out, you took a chance.

And also it's about having the courage to be slightly uncomfortable and step outside of your comfort zone and think, well, do you know what if I don't try?

Yeah.

What will happen?

It's so true.

And I think you've hit the nail on the head there.

You know, I was thinking when I woke up this morning, I feel like I spend most days at a certain point feeling uncomfortable, and it's getting comfortable with feeling uncomfortable.

And there are certain days where I'm like, I'm done.

I just want to be cozy.

I like putting my socks on, getting warm with a hot water bottle and just cozying up and just.

That's it.

You know what I mean?

Closing the door and.

But it is, especially within this type of industry, it's constantly putting Every single day, putting yourself in situations where you're pushing, pushing, pushing the barrier.

And I think now so more than ever of being an older woman in the industry, you know, having societal norms pushed against you, pulled against you.

I didn't realize that when I got to 40 and having what I deem for myself as a.

A consistent, successful career, I would still be at a point where you get questions and judged and judged every single day.

And these things now that, you know, I'm getting judged for that, I wouldn't.

In my early 20s, your age, your ethnicity, whether you've got children or not.

As a woman, how do you balance your work and your career?

Are you doing it well enough or not enough?

It's a constant thing.

And I think when I was younger, when I first started in the industry, I thought, well, I'm young, but I know I'm going to get to a point where I have it all figured out and I'll just wake up one day and I'll feel comfortable and everything will be fine.

And then, you know, you wake up and you're 40 and you're like, yeah, life doesn't work like that.

Totally doesn't.

You know what I mean?

We were just talking about it before.

It's like one day you put a dress on, it feels great.

The next day you put it on, it's not.

But, you know, you were doing what, four weeks filming of Crime Watch, where it's like live tv every single day.

You've got to show up whether you feel like it or not.

Yeah.

And I think what's interesting when you said about the judgment, it's every time you go for a role, every time you go to do anything, you know, even entrepreneurs could be speaking on stage, getting a book, who always pop against someone else.

There's always a comparison that we're forced into massively.

And people say it's not personal.

It is.

Personally, it is personal at the end of the day, with you, with me, we are our brand, we are the business.

So it's.

It's you.

So it is personal, you know, and it's not.

Taking offense to that is difficult at times, but also, I've learned over the years, yeah, it's personal.

And also there are, like, in life, there are going to be some people that like me, and there are some people that don't.

I can't change that.

You know, in the very early days when I was moving from production into presenting, I would go and reach out to various different people in the industry to get advice.

Some Advice was really worthwhile.

Upon reflection, some wasn't so worthwhile.

Some people would say, look at different presenters and see who you want to be like.

And for me, I didn't feel like that was good advice because I need to look at myself and think, what elements of myself can I bring out more?

What can I home?

What can I evolve into and feel it from here?

Yeah, I can look at other people that I admire and take inspiration from, but I'm never going to be them.

Yeah, this is it.

I think I always say this with clients that, you know, if they want to get onto stages, they want to emulate someone else's career or brand success, it's like, think about what you are, what your core pillars are, what your passion is, your mission and vision, and look at all of these people and then cherry pick the bits that you feel that truly align with what you want to do and that will bring out your superpowers.

And I think where people go wrong is that they try and copy.

And this is the thing, like, you're never going to be able to be the same as someone else, and why should we?

Where we're put on life as our own entities.

And I think when you look at how people judge, they always say things like, you know, you could have more followers, you could have more this, you could have more years of experience.

You could have had all of these things.

But all of these criticisms that we face day to day, I think we have to try and, as you say, take on board, but not feel that people are saying it in a negative sense.

But that's just their opinion and their perception, and it's whether your face fits at the right time.

And it's almost like the rejection piece.

For me, the more I've been rejected, those are the times that have put me into a catalyst of growth like never before.

So true.

Literally couldn't agree with that more.

And I can think of many times, you know, in my career where I've been pitted against other people and, you know, you think that this next job is going to be your dream job, and you're hoping and you're hoping people are rooting for.

You're going to get it and you don't get it, and you think, well, that's it now.

Yeah, but actually, I'd love to do a study on what that is that's going on in your kind of psyche or your makeup that actually switches up the notch almost to another gear that you didn't realize you had and does propel you forward.

I Feel like it's an inner resilience.

Yes.

I feel like the more you condition yourself to trying, having the audacity, having the courage, putting yourself out the comfort zone, it's almost like that just becomes your new norm.

So that when you don't get the thing, it almost feels like, well, the belief and the, I suppose, reference point you have in your mind is, I go back to what happened last time.

Well, do you know what?

Actually, last time I pivoted, I did this and I pushed on and I got greater success.

Yes.

It's almost like the universe serves us in that way.

It's like it's not meant to be because we're meant for greater things.

Yeah.

And I think within all of that, if you're continuing to work hard, it is going to pay off.

And you know, after years of being in the industry now, to, to have the evidence to back that up, to reflect and look back on the times, well, you, you didn't get that.

But look what happened next.

You didn't get that.

And the consistent thread through all of that is not giving up, is having faith within yourself.

And also for me, I think again, within tv, not just relying on external validation.

If I spent my life within my career just basing how I feel about myself day to day on what a few people within the industry have said to me, positive or negative, it can be really unhealthy.

It's great when it's an enhancement, and it's also really healthy when it's constructive criticism.

And know every program that I do, I watch back, I ask for feedback.

You know, we have great feedback meetings on, on one of the programs that I do.

I'm certainly not the person that just thinks, well, everything's great.

I need people to tell me that it's great.

I need people to tell me that wasn't so great and this is what you could do better.

But you've also got to have that inner belief in yourself to, to know when actually I need to step it up here or know this is going well.

And if it doesn't necessarily align with X, Y and Z, that's okay because you're happy with your growth and you're happy with where you're going with it, you know.

Yeah, totally.

And it's, it's almost like changing the internal narrative.

Sometimes we try and trick ourselves into, oh, well, no, I don't need to do that because it feels uncomfortable.

But actually sometimes we need to change that narrative and switch up a little bit and push ourselves out of the Comfort zone.

And I always like to say to clients, like when you get a piece of criticism or something you deem as negative, like, sometimes that is a positive superpower.

So when someone says, oh, my goodness, like, she's always at 100 miles an hour, that actually could be your best superpower because you're just pushing on and doing things and maybe you need to rest at times and things like that.

But we are conditioned to take on board people's advice.

And sometimes we.

It's what we do with it.

You know, it's fine to take on board and think, right, okay, is this good?

Is this bad?

Can I take something from it?

What is the challenge?

What's the positive?

And I think the thing is here is that you're faced with that day to day.

Like, you know, being an entrepreneur, we're faced with it in different ways.

And I think every single woman out there will be able to relate to the perception of what people think about how we look.

So I would love to explore that because I once, when I did one of my first ads on Facebook, put it out and it was getting amazing traction.

And then I started to get trolled by men who were saying either not particularly nice things or offensive.

And then one of the comments that always sticks with me, this man was like, I hate her lipstick.

And it made me laugh so much.

And everyone's like, you know, how do you feel about this trolling?

And I just thought, you know what, this is not about me, this is about them.

Yes, but every day we are judged in our appearance and, you know, more so for you, you're in front of the camera all the time.

What was it like starting out in your career?

Like in cbbc, did you have to conform to a stigma in the BBC?

Like, did you have to look a certain way?

One of the first presenting jobs that I got offered within tv, and I remember very distinctly how the conversation went.

The boss at the time had said, I'm not going to get the role because my hair is too confusing for the audience.

Which is obviously a far deeper conversation.

I knew exactly what he was saying to me at that time.

And even being very young in the industry then even before I'd started presenting, you know, I'd felt that I'm going to come across these kind of conversations.

I come across that, you know, all the time, within life.

But to have someone so directly saying it to me as if it's advice was one of those real kind of wake up moments to me of, okay, there's a couple of paths I can take here and some people do conform or not.

And for me it was a massive or not.

If I'm going to be in this industry, if I'm going to feel confident in myself in this space, I can't be doing what you're saying because I will lose every bit of myself.

And that is literally going against who I am and what I continue to want to be as a presenter.

And you, you do realize, I mean, every day, every time I do live telly, I don't spend too much time, to be honest, going on social media comments, but some people really do like to try and make a beeline so you can see it in your DMS or, you know, on your, on your pictures and stuff.

People always make comments about the way I look, my hair, my facial features, my nose.

It will be something that's constant.

And there is a lot of, it's racism.

You know, there's a lot of racist comments, unfortunately, that I get and some of my, my colleagues get.

I think over the years I've learned to deal with it a lot better than when I was younger.

Not that I was ever shocked by it, unfortunately, but it was something that I would really kind of take to heart.

And you know, when you feel injustice, you want to be able to right the wrongs.

You want to be able to almost going back to psychology, have a conversation with that person and make them understand or try and understand why they're saying what they're saying.

That wasn't the way to, to approach it.

For every kind of negative, hateful comment, I'm not going to be spending my precious time messaging back to a troll on social media.

It's, it's pointless.

There are times over your career that it definitely gets you down.

You know, generally outside of, of working in tv, even growing up as a kid, I've never been the type of person that's been really confident within my looks.

It's not, I don't wake up in the morning, think, geez, Michelle, you're bloody fit.

I would love to be more of that person as I get older.

You know, I'm trying to like get there and be like, come on now.

But I've never been that type of person.

I think when I was younger and I used to get negative comments about my looks, I would soak it in a bit more.

It would almost be like trying to verify how I felt about myself.

But even then there's always been something in me that would just kind of do things despite that.

Like, yeah, there is, there's Plenty of times.

Well, I'll sit on telly live in the morning, the monitors there and I'll look.

I don't feel confident with the way I look today despite having a lovely experience and makeup or whatever it might be.

But am I going to smash this show and do a cracking show?

Yeah.

And am I going to come away and feel good in myself overall?

Yes.

And is that going to be influenced by some random person on social media?

No.

You know, I love this, this whole attitude because I think everyone watching will relate to this, that it is hard sometimes, you know, you get up and when we're putting ourselves in the public eye, I mean, I remember back to a time where social media didn't even exist.

Like my whole dawn of a new era.

I feel like I started my business when the Internet began.

My first agency.

And one of the things is I got a fellowship from the Royal Society of Manufacture Arts and Commerce and I was the youngest person, the youngest fellow and I was a woman and that was very much pointed out.

And what it was for was getting businesses into social media.

So I laugh now.

It's about this whole kind of thing where visibility piece is constant 24 7.

Like kids come home from school, they can't get away from it.

I used to come home from school and you were in a safe zone.

Yeah, yeah.

You didn't have any contact apart from, you know, trying to get on the phone when someone wasn't trying to use the Internet.

And those days did happen.

But what we're in now is this constant kind of like visibility piece.

And I think with personal branding it feels like you have to be on 24 service and I think that's very difficult because there's some days that you just don't feel like doing it, but you have to get up and do it again.

And we were talking about this outside in the sunshine.

But when you grow up, we are faced with things all of the time as women that we have to do, but we take on board sometimes some of the societal norms and we don't even realize that, you know, we've been conditioned that much that we're doing it.

We, we disempower people.

Like I was just saying to you before that, you know, I've gone for a day to London and I've said to my partner, here's your lunch.

You know, he's a 50 odd year old man, I think he can probably find.

But I see myself going into this, you know, and disempowering people.

Where do you sit in Terms of where you think societal norms have got a positive now, like how women are embracing them and using them in a good way.

Do you think we're dismantling some of the stigma?

Do you think we are forging forward?

I really do think we are.

And for all, you know, the negativity that we've been talking about regarding social media and the trolling, I think this is where social media can actually come into its own.

Because again, for all the.

The stress that we do put on ourselves as women, to be doing things all of the time and when it comes to social media, to be posting about our businesses, to be posting about what we're doing on live television, to be telling everyone about a new series, this, this, this and this, as well as our home life.

Look, I'm a normal person.

I'm doing this too.

It's a lot.

But it's also a platform where people can, if they want to be, be really honest and open about their views, their opinions, and communicate with other women, with societies, and actually, as you say, break those norms down.

And that is the one thing that I do really like about social media, to be able to have that connection, even have that connection over a platform with your friends that you've not seen for a while, with people that you do align with and that you relate to.

And I think that actually it's.

What do they say, A rising tide lifts all the ships.

It bolsters us all and it makes us question ourselves as well.

You start seeing things in other people and thinking, actually.

Yes.

Or reading things and think that makes sense.

I hadn't thought about that before.

Yes, I'm going to.

I'm going to push the boundaries in this way.

I'm going to go home and have a conversation with my husband about that or speak to my kids about that.

In that respect, it does push things forward.

And I think, you know, we're all evolving all the time.

We don't know everything, you know, and there are habits that we all have, like we were talking about and those gender roles within society.

I'm very much a person that will.

As soon as I walk in my home, I'm like, right, what needs doing?

I'd be like, putting the washing on, taking the drying out, dah, dah, dah.

Empty the dresser.

And then my partner is very good at coming in, sitting down and having a moment.

Minus two.

Is that strange?

Like, I need to take a leaf out of this book.

Like, what would happen if we flip the script here?

And I'm like, right within I'm just sitting right down and he'd probably look at me think, well, that's not like you, Michelle.

But I like it.

You know, there's, there's ways that we can kind of push our own boundaries and not just look at other people and think, well, why are you doing that?

Like that?

You know, it's interesting when you start making changes within yourself, what actually starts to happen around you and how you can move forward from that.

And that's where I think, yeah, social media and having that kind of awareness and wanting to question yourself is so important.

Yeah.

Because social media, I feel, can be a real, true vehicle of change.

And I love social media for that aspect.

I'm quite good at zoning out the white noise and I just kind of embrace the things I want to get involved with.

And I've always been really passionate about building kind of community that I want on social media.

So for me, it's like the numbers are almost vanity, but the, the quality of the people and it's like I literally messaged you on Instagram and, you know, here we are today in London.

This is what I love about social media, that we can just reach out to people, we can have those conversations now.

One of the things that I know about you is that you are very passionate about charity.

And I actually saw you speak at SmartWorks event.

Of course, it was a fizz and fashion event.

And you're one of the longest standing ambassadors, I think, for Smart Works.

And we're both very passionate about this charity.

Tell me a little bit about how you got involved in it, because it's an amazing charity.

It really is.

It really is.

And the whole focus on the charity is to inspire, empower women to be the best version of themselves, get them a foot on the ladder.

And it's, it's amazing working with incredible women.

And actually it was through an incredible woman that I ended up working with the charity.

So one of my old bosses within BBC, who was actually the person that changed my contract once I'd done my four week unpaid work experience placement.

Oh, I love this.

She was the one that actually called me into her office and said, michelle, I would like to give you a fixed term contract as a runner in BBC Manchester.

It was on, you know, on the fourth floor in Manchester, Oxford Road, in the entertainment department.

And I remember sat on a sofa, like nearly in tears.

And, you know, she was, she was incredible, you know, and she could obviously see something within me and she was an incredible mentor to have.

And this is going back 20 years now, this is like back in 2005.

We have kept in touch ever since.

We're friends.

And I'd always said to her, even throughout my.

My time at the BBC, I'd always be going to her for advice and say, caroline, I'm looking to do.

Set up some kind of mentorship scheme, or what else can I be doing within the BBC that can help other people that might be coming in, you know, and, and how can I help with their progress?

So she knew I was always interested in, in trying to help others and in different ways, and she'd been a part of.

Of the charity, so it was actually through her that she said, michelle, do you want to come to one of the events with me?

Because I think actually being involved in this would be right up your street.

So she introduced me to Jan from, from the charity and we had a, you know, a lovely lunch, the three of us, and then it literally continued from there.

You know, I've involved in various events, workshops, talks, and you were talking about community earlier.

That's what this charity is for me.

It's an incredible community.

When you're in a space, as you know, with many women, women who have a voice, but women who are in the process of finding their voice and then women that choose to use it within that space and tell you their story gives you goosebumps, it empowers you and it's almost.

It's like ping pong.

It's like throwing a ball in a, I don't know, bouncy squash court and you just see it bouncing, bouncing back.

All this energy is kind of bouncing around the room and we're all helping each other.

It was lovely to.

To think how that's actually all come from full circle through Caroline almost paying it forward.

And I've been able to help other people through that.

Yeah, definitely.

And I think with the charity, one of the things that I love about it is that when you think about how dressing makes us feel, and the fact that these women who were going for interviews and there was one woman who spoke at that event that we met at, and I think she'd been to like, 55 interviews, something absolutely crazy.

She come out with an amazing job.

Yeah.

Couldn't get a new job.

Yeah.

Came to Smart Works, got this amazing sort of styling and, you know, this whole new outfit and then they do coaching as well.

Yes.

And then her next interview got the job.

And I think it's.

It's these things that we see, you know, charities like that, the impact that they make.

And I Think as you know, personal brands, founders, presenters, whatever, we can all do more in those spaces and it's to do a little good in the world, you know, to give back.

I think that is where true enrichment of life kind of comes from.

What would you say on a day to day lights you up?

What makes Michelle really happy?

It's generally actually feeling a part of a community, of a part of a society and, and helping people, you know, trying to make a difference within my role as, as a producer and as a presenter.

I have various mentees now so, you know, people might reach out to me on social media or internally through the BBC.

And I love spending time actually helping others.

And it's not just about me offering advice and saying, well, I did this, this and this.

It's actually really taking the time to listen, to hear people and to share stories.

And I always come away from that experience feeling enriched and feeling full, feeling fulfilled and knowing that that other person can feel the same.

And I think within that, as I've gotten older, another thing weirdly that makes me happy is actually feeling confident enough to be vulnerable in certain spaces and being honest.

And again, going back to smartworks, the charity, you know, when you, you're listening to women speak, they're talking about the hardships in their life, they're connecting you with you on a level that is deeply personal, but sharing it in a way that we are all being able to benefit from and go and help other, other people.

And I just think to get to a point where whatever you're doing, you're getting up in the morning and you're getting on with your day, but you think, okay, I know the things that are going to happen that are within my control, they're going to be other things that will happen today that are without, you know, out of my control.

But I'm going with it.

There are times when I'll be vulnerable and honest and open and have to communicate and that, that's a really rich kind of beautiful tapestry to have.

You know, it kind of gives you that confidence, like it's okay, you know, and it's okay.

And I think what I love about this conversation is the fact that nobody has got it planned and now 24, 7, there doesn't reach a point in your 20s, 30s, 40s, whenever that you wake up and you think, yep, I nailed it.

You know, and I actually thought that they did.

I didn't.

I'm not going to lie.

I'm not going to lie.

I thought too.

And you know, the thing here was is I thought in my life that I would follow some of the societal norms.

I totally didn't.

I mean, not really a conformist anyway.

I've always challenged the status quo.

But I think what is really interesting is when I reflect back on some of the things I did, I've taken quite big risks and I think some of the things in my life defined that.

I actually lost six people in six months just when I was starting my first business at 21.

But that changed my whole outlook on life and it made me pretty risque in the things that I did because I was like, do you know what?

I'm still here.

I've got my health.

And my dad used to say, dawn, it's character building.

Yeah.

And then I did my first book called Character Building, and that was for cancer research.

But every time I think about something, I think, what would happen if I don't do it?

So what would be your best piece of advice for anyone listening who is thinking, do you know what?

I just want to level it up a little bit.

I want to push a little bit harder.

Like, I've got this goal, I've got this dream.

What would we say today?

What would be your advice?

You know, it's so funny because I talked to my mum about this a lot and she just says, just do it.

We could spend a lot of time now sitting down and going through the minutiae of what you need to do here, there, then next.

But actually, the first thing you need to do is reset your mind.

The first thing needs to be an action point.

Just do it.

It's almost like not putting the snooze button on 10 million times.

When you wake up in the morning, just get up, get up, switch that light on, drink a glass of water, your body's activated, you're engaged.

So that, that would be my first point of advice, actually try and declutter your mind of all the reasons why this potentially couldn't work.

If this is something that you're really passionate about, if it's a dream that you've had, constantly tell yourself that you are going to do it.

That needs to be the first thing in your mind.

And then you start working out the process.

I mean, for me, like I said, research has always been the key for me.

Preparation, taking time to really understand.

If I'm going to do a live show first thing in the morning, I'll be spending the night before reading through the briefs.

I'll be going through the contributors that I'm interviewing.

I'll be finding out the little pieces of information that people don't really know.

What is it that's going to set me apart?

What is it that's going to make this conversation for them feel like it's something on a.

On a different level?

So what can you be doing?

Because actually, you realize a lot of people don't do that.

A lot of people don't either.

Preparation and don't do the research, you know.

Yeah.

And then the thing is here is like, I guess your goal is really about the communication.

It goes back to what you said before, making sure that that first person is, like, really seen, like, really heard and really noticed.

And they actually kept.

I think that you've hit the nail on the head, having authenticity.

And I think when I watch television, you can see with certain people, it comes through the camera.

You know, you can see people that genuinely care and are authentic.

And isn't it a nice feeling when you go into a room and you.

You feel that?

Like, when I met you and we were chatting, sat outside, I was like, well, this is lovely.

I can feel it's different.

You can feel that difference.

Yeah.

And if you have got that, I mean, that just takes you.

You're not trying to convince yourself basically, as well as everybody else, you've already got that faith and you care and you feel.

And you're looking forward to listening and hearing that just kind of.

You're floating then, you know, and this is it.

I think it's a big communication thing.

I love what you say about the communication part because for me, when I first started, I found it really difficult being so young in business.

A lot of rejection, a lot of kind of stereotypes, like, you know, a woman working in tech and things like that.

But I didn't really let it bother me.

But one of the things that I was so absolutely certain on every single day was I was just going to communicate in the way that I wanted to be communicated with, almost like doing to others have done to yourself.

And that has been honestly the biggest foundation for my success because it's about people.

Like, if you gel with people, everything seems to flow and everything feels nice and the opportunities come, and it's almost like sowing a seed of happiness every day, showing gratitude.

And what you said about the whole just kind of get it done.

I love this principle because I always say to people, when they say, dawn, I just need a plan.

You don't need a plan.

You just need a vision.

You need to start breaking down some of those actions and start implementing, like, just get something in Motion.

Yes.

Because I love a bit of crazy chaos.

Some of the things that have been my biggest growth has been things that I've just gone, you know what?

I'm just going to do that.

Yeah.

And I get it out there before I'm even certain of how it's going to look and work.

But it just feels right.

That's the thing.

And the crazy chaoticness kind of comes together in there, you know, it's kind.

Of creative, you know, and.

And it's genius, isn't it?

And I think there's really something in that, in terms of our psyche and.

And how we're built physiologically.

I even know if I'm really trying to make myself go to the gym in the morning.

You can tell yourself every single reason not to go again.

Alarm.

Don't snooze it.

I will put my gym kit on as soon as I'm out of the bed.

So my trainers.

I'm walking around in my trainers.

And it's even just having your body in the gym kit clothes.

Suddenly something sparks.

Well, I'll go.

Even if I do five minutes, it's better than nothing.

There's perfect action.

Exactly.

At least we're doing something.

Yes.

And I always say, like, you know, you can't condition the habit.

You have to change the environment, first of all.

So if your environment, you know, is kind of like you get up in the morning and you're in your kind of like sitting down and laying around before you do it.

Like, for me, I just have to do a reforma Pilates every single morning because it sets me up.

I literally don't think the alarm goes off.

I get up and I'm in Pilates mode.

Yeah.

Because the environment for me was like, well, I know that I will flow better.

Yes.

I am doing this thing.

So my environment was put the phone somewhere that I've got to get up and do it.

Yes.

Okay.

And then once I was kind of in that whole motion I was kind of doing.

And then the first thing would be like, right, get an espresso, do the things I like doing that get me on that journey, and get me at the start.

So we're onto my favorite part of the podcast now, the bit where you share your embarrassing story.

Now, I ask every guest to do this, and it's my favorite.

And I was just telling you about some of the ones before.

And if you think about what was the craziest, most embarrassing time, like, what is the story?

You've got to share it.

Oh, my God.

You know What?

Especially doing live television every day, I feel like there are embarrassing moments all the time because sometimes it's crazy.

Like, for all the preparation and the research that you do, sometimes your mind just kind of goes away with itself.

You know, the amount of times I've been like, hello, and welcome to such and such.

Happy Wednesday.

No, Michelle, it's Friday.

Okay, right, we'll reverse that.

But actually, it's refreshing because you're like, people make mistakes.

But on one program I do on Morning Live, we have a section of the show that's called Strictly Fitness at the end.

So we have the Strictly Come Dancing dancers come on and they teach us some exercise so the audience at home can kind of get involved.

I absolutely love it.

You know, it's a chance for us all.

Just have a bit of fun, have a dance.

Da, da da.

So I'm always fully committed.

You know, we take our shoes off and get stuck in.

So we're doing various exercises, lifting our arms, you know, doing the paso doble move or the cha cha or whatever.

Multiple people have said, michelle, watch the dog, watch the dog, watch the dog, Michelle.

Michelle the dog.

Like, I'm just looking at the autoc.

You're like, oh, I've got 10 seconds to kind of sound out.

See, tomorrow, like, laughing and smiling, having a whale of a time in my own world.

And the next minute I turn around to do this move, thinking, this move is going to look.

I'm going to be bidded for Strictly because this move is going to look great.

Absolutely.

Stack it, roll over this.

This beautiful golden Labrador, nearly face plant the table.

Whilst everyone goes silent in the studio.

Like, is she okay?

Issue.

I'm thinking, is that, have I killed this dog?

Live on, is the dog okay?

Thankfully, Dolly the dog was absolutely fine.

I managed to get up just before the show is going.

I'm okay, everything's fine.

It was the most embarrassing thing ever because it's like you're just thinking, this could go really badly.

And then everyone's thinking, is she all right?

Can she talk?

You know, if Harry Hill's TV burp was still going or you've been framed, I feel like I'd get 200 quid cash from Jeremy Bead.

Or can we.

Can we find this on YouTube?

Yeah, well, gething keeps bringing out.

Every time I'm back, it's like, oh, she's okay, she's okay.

Thankfully, Dolly the dog's okay.

We had to do a thing on social media afterwards with me sat on the sofa with Dolly the dog.

Like, we're still here, everything's fine.

The amount of messages.

Thank you, thank God.

Like, you know, honestly, royalties, animals, it.

Was like, we don't.

We've, we've.

I think we've stopped dancing with the dogs at the.

Well, I've stopped dancing with the dogs at the end.

I think the studio stopped you dancing with it all.

It's like, oh, my word.

And especially on programs, you know, Morning Live, it's a magazine show.

So you're talking about.

We talk about anything from real kind of consumer hardcore topics to what you're going to do with your rhubarb this summer.

So to kind of toe the line and then sometimes things happen, you've just got to.

It's just a very human, real moment.

Thankfully I managed to just do my piece to camera, you know, half on the floor on my butt, saying goodbye.

And you just got to move on.

This is it.

I mean, there's sometimes like, you know, I just think back to some of the things I've done and I'm one of these people who's like so clumsy.

But also predictive text, the amount of text I've sent.

Yeah.

And someone asked me what electrolyte I was taking.

I meant to say Humantra, which was this amazing brand.

Oh, yes, it is lovely.

Lovely.

Sent it.

Look back on it and it picked up and it said, I've just finished.

Not Humantra, Human trafficking.

Sent this to my client.

I mean, like, if there was a worst thing that could have sent, that was it.

So for me, these things like happen every single day.

Yeah.

But I love a good story.

And you know what I'm going to do?

I'm going to go right on YouTube now.

I'm going have a look at this.

Dolly the dog there.

Made gifts out of it and everything.

This is the thing about.

You can't live it down now on social media, can you?

Do you know what I mean?

That's going to be what I'm remembered for, Tripping over the dog.

It's true.

So one of my favorite books at the moment, and I honestly feel like it's been life changing, is a book called the Courage to Be Disliked.

And it, honestly, I read on holiday, it was one of those books, you know, that really get you.

Is there a book that you can recommend that has, like changed your life?

There's a couple, actually that I'm reading at the minute.

One called Worthy by Jamie Lynn Kerner and another one by a psychologist friend by Owen O'Kane called Addicted to Anxiety.

And it's brilliant.

Heard really good things about that.

It's really, really good.

There's certain books that I will take around with me, you know, for a, for a train journey, let's face it, we do a lot of.

And dip in and dip out.

I almost see them as manuals.

You know, I'll read a book and then I need to go back to it and that will like kind of bookmark pages and go through again.

My first recommendation would be Addicted to Anxiety because there's some real standout tangible bits of advice that you can take.

And also Owen, especially within this book, he kind of delves into his own upbringing and his anxiety and how he's overcome it.

So you actually not just getting advice from a psychologist, you learn about the person behind the psychology.

Yeah.

And you get different kind of connection.

Yes.

So what does the future hold and how can people connect with you, Michelle?

Well, I'm on social media, I'm on Instagram at Michelle Ackerley.

The future for me is.

Well, I got married last year so it's our first year wedding anniversary.

When you arrive, the first thing, oh, you arrived.

And I saw someone kiss and I thought that's that beautiful.

And I thought oh, that's Michelle.

Pleasure.

You know what it's continuing to have or trying to forge a decent work life balance.

I think for me, especially within tv, one of the questions that people always ask is what's next?

What's the five year goal?

What's the.

And that used to be something that I would almost obsess about and not actually think about the journey that, that I'm on.

I think it's important to have goals but it's also kind of being in the present and I have to say that actually I'm really enjoying my journey at the minute.

Be more Morning Live.

They've just been nominated for a bafta.

So we find out in May.

I head to Sacramento in May as well to do the World's Strongest Man.

That'll be fun.

Which would be fun.

Just a lot of big burly strong men.

I get neck ache doing that though to be fair dawn, because they're all so tall.

I'm there with a microphone.

Need to do like my neck exercises by the end of the day.

And you don't want to get stuck in a lift with them because that's happened with them as well.

Five strong men stuck in a lift.

It's.

Yeah.

All be trapped.

Positive experience.

Well, not when they're.

They all got very nervous.

I'm the one trying to sort the situation out.

They're like, oh my God, I'm claustrophobic.

I don't like this.

Guys, don't worry, it's all gonna be fine.

I've got this rest the alarm, probably be an hour or so.

We'll be fine.

But no, it's just, yeah.

Creating that good balance between work and home life, spending lots of.

With family.

And I always say to my mom, it's having things to look forward to, whether that is just actually enjoying a time, going for a lovely walk with.

With friends and family, cooking something nice.

It's just kind of having those present moments to really feel enriched is.

Is something that.

Yeah.

Means a lot to me at the minute.

Well, thank you for this chat and you're off to go and have a lovely lunch in the sunshine.

In the sunshine.

No, it's a lovely day today with.

Your husband, so enjoy and thank you so much.

Oh, it's been a pleasure.

Thank you.

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