CHARLOTTE H PART 2

[00:00:00] Ross: Hi there, and a very warm welcome to Season 6, Episode 2 of People Soup. It's Ross McIntosh here.

[00:00:06] Charlotte: I just felt I wanted to make a difference. I wanted to. be there for other people in a way that would support them when I couldn't support them.

[00:00:15] and you've read the book and you may have felt this, but it feels for me like very much like a conversation all the way through. It's a conversation I tried to imagine I was in a coaching session with somebody and coaching them and supporting them and being curious and interested in them and a kind of genuine goodbye at the end of the book, which was heartfelt, you know, So there was an element of me wanting to democratize coaching and psychology to have a bigger impact on the world than perhaps I could personally, by writing it all in a book.

[00:00:46] Ross: In this episode, I continue my chat with Charlotte Housden, who talks about her brilliant book, Swim, Jump, Fly!

[00:00:53] A Guide to Changing Your Life. The recipe she brings to PeopleSoup is a hearty stock of change, infused with her own Extensive research and experience, which is seasoned with psychological theory. You'll hear more about how she incorporated the experience of human change around the world and how the writing process was supported by a choir and a quartet. for those of you who are new to PeopleSoup, welcome. It's great to have you here. We aim to provide you with the ingredients for a better work life, from behavioral science and beyond. For those of you who are regular PeeSupers, thanks for tuning in. We love it that you're part of our community.

[00:01:43] So let's crack on. For now, get a brew on and have a listen to part two of my chat with Charlotte Houston.

[00:01:50] Charlotte, I'd like to dive into your book, please. And I would like to start with my [00:02:00] review, should tell the PCPers, you haven't heard yet. Thank you very much.

[00:02:03] Charlotte: I have

[00:02:03] not. I'm a little

[00:02:05] trepidatious.

[00:02:06] Ross: if you look at my smiling face, I think that should allay, any fears. Right, here we go. Charlotte's spirit, energy and humor shine through each page of Swim, Jump, Fly. The way she draws upon a wide range of theory, philosophy and research makes this a comprehensive guide to change, both for the individual and the coach or practitioner.

[00:02:27] There are two shining stars of the book. The first is Charlotte's practical and accessible writing. And the second star is a collective, made up of Charlotte's research participants, all 108 of them across 27 countries. Their experiences are woven throughout the book. Charlotte normalises the human experience of change.

[00:02:49] We all struggle. and this book makes our struggles feel more relatable and gives us insights and exercises to help us find our way. Bravo.

[00:02:58] Charlotte: Oh, thank you. That's lovely. I really love what you've said and particularly the piece about the stories because I really wanted it to be lots of people in the room, not just me. One thing I love about being a coach is that I don't have to be the expert. I don't have to know everything.

[00:03:16] I am a facilitator. I'm not an expert. And in having all those people in the book, it was just a wonderful smorgasbord of different experiences and feelings and backgrounds and types of people. And I just loved the idea that I had this big choir behind me. of people singing. I didn't want to be on the stage on my own. I think there was a little element of imposter syndrome. I don't know enough. I need other people there with me. Maybe my singing voice isn't quite strong enough, but if I have all of these. people singing behind me, just think how wonderful that will sound. A, I did way too many.

[00:03:53] People tell me I needed to do about 10 or 20. I did a thematic analysis and they said, Oh, you needed 10 or 20, not 108. [00:04:00] But I went to 108 because I wanted to have a really good range of ages and genders and types of people from different places. and I also wanted to make it really. accessible and interesting.

[00:04:14] I imagined the reader being, coming from different parts of life and society and, and if they could see someone that was like them in the book, then it would normalize whatever challenges they were going through. Because when I started, I am white, middle class, and female. And a lot of the people I started interviewing were white, middle class, and female.

[00:04:33] And I just thought, well, this is rubbish. I need it to be broader and more interesting. So I, I, I purposefully went to 108 because I wanted to get to almost balance of genders and, lots of different people from different places. And so it just feels like I, I, I loved the interviews because it felt like I was in this enormous hall full of people from different places all just chatting about their lives.

[00:04:56] And I enjoyed that part of it very much.

[00:04:58] Ross: I'd love to take a step back and say,

[00:05:01] when you started out doing the interviews, was it your intention to, to, to go to this many, to, or did it just grow as you went along? What happened? How did it grow like that?

[00:05:12] Charlotte: So I was in the middle of a career sort of change process myself. I didn't know what I wanted to do next. I'd been working in consultancy for many years and had kind of fallen out of love with. Some of the things I was doing and I did, but I didn't know what else to do because I'd always done either being a consultant or being in HR and run leadership development functions.

[00:05:34] And I didn't quite know what else to do. So I was sort of. experimenting and trying new things. And I started out chatting to people who had gone through career change themselves and said, Oh, how did you do it? What was the process? And I ended up creating a semi structured interview out of that. And then initially it was me gathering data for myself.

[00:05:53] It was very kind of focused on my own needs. But in the process of having this structure, semi structured interview, I realized [00:06:00] that people were getting a huge amount out of that process of stepping back, looking at their career, their lives. And then it sort of snowballed because The people that I was interviewing then told other people about it.

[00:06:10] So this is quite useful, you know, exercise of like 40 to 60 minutes. And then it kind of broadened out from career to other things, other challenges that people were going through. So these ended up, the question ended up being, how do people navigate change successfully? And many of them hadn't navigated success successfully.

[00:06:28] And therefore we were also learning about what not to do next time. And it just kind of snowballed. It just, it started off being by five or 10 and then it kind of 20 and then 30 and 50 and then ended up with 108. So, yeah, it wasn't kind of where I imagined it was going to go, but it was lovely. I, I, I, that was the part of the process that I loved the most.

[00:06:47] Ross: And thinking about parts of the process you loved the most, I'm thinking, because for my, for my Masters in Organizational Psychology about 10 years ago, I did a thematic analysis. And I thought I was pushing the boundaries because I had 16 people. And that process of the thematic analysis, transcribing the interviews, reading them through, becoming immersed in them, looking for themes.

[00:07:13] My kind of home office turned into like a serial killer's lair. With bits of paper all over the wall, with connections between them. And, I was immersing myself for hours every day in this and came out looking like some sort of crazed caveman. so that was with 16. So Charlotte, tell me how it was with 108.

[00:07:33] ha ha!

[00:07:36] Charlotte: I did not enjoy the process because it, when I started out, I thought, Oh, this is fun. And I created the, I created all sorts of like charts and I had color coding and I had these themes that I was creating, you know, these sort of, I had, in the end it was like 120 or something like that. but as it went on, I'd done the first 10 and the 20, and then this is great.

[00:07:56] And then I'm like, I still got another how many to do. if I were to [00:08:00] have my life again, I would not do 108. It became overwhelming. I got so lost in the data. It became a chore. but I did it. I got through it eventually and I realized I'd hit the sides of the topic where I kept seeing the same things over and over again. I thought, okay. I've done it. I did all that 108, but I've, I think I've got enough themes now. And then I, you know how it works. You kind of get them down and down and down and down. I got it down to 18. but no, I would say that was not my favorite part, but, I wish I'd done it differently, but actually I think there's a richness.

[00:08:35] I mean, a lot of people give feedback to me and say, the book is very rich. Um, I think the richness comes from the volume of people I spoke to. So there is a benefit to it, but I found the process very

[00:08:44] Ross: And what was in your mind when you were doing the thematic analysis? Because I know, I think if I've got the sequence right, it went to, thoughts were shared in your blog. did that happen alongside the thematic analysis?

[00:08:57] Charlotte: I had some advice from somebody who's a journalist that not to write a book and I was very disappointed by this idea that not to write a book. So the whole point of doing this research was to write a book. But I thought, no, he knows what he's talking about. I'll do what he says. And he said, Practice your writing.

[00:09:11] Practicing Writing

[00:09:11] Charlotte: Hone your writing. I'd done a lot of writing in work because I had run a lot of internal communications functions, or when I was a management consultant, I was running all the communications for these big change programs. So I was very well versed at writing business y stuff. Um, but I hadn't really written from the heart and, he said the process of writing in a way that is attractive or engaging has to have a bit of you in it.

[00:09:38] And there's a, there's a vulnerability in that, which is quite unsettling when you start the idea of sharing your inner world with other people. And even the point of pressing go on the sending the blog is difficult because I'd go over and over and over and over and over and make sure it's perfect.

[00:09:54] And so he said, get used to that process. Get it out there. Don't worry about it so much. So I took his [00:10:00] advice and I wrote the blog whilst I was doing the thematic analysis and pulling out themes and sharing them. Some of it wasn't the thematic analysis. Some of it was just my thinking. Um, but I did that for 18 months.

[00:10:11] every week, which was quite an endeavor. but I have to say by the end of it, I became much better at crafting stories and thinking about the narrative arcs and, and also people say of my writing that it sounds just like me. So, and I, it's a hackneyed expression, but having a voice, um, apparently I do have a voice.

[00:10:33] I have, a style that people can recognize. Now, some people will hate it. And I'm kind of comfortable with that now, the idea that, I have a particular way of writing that aligns to who I am. And in fact, my website, I've got a number of websites for my business and I actually almost use them as an, as an assessment center.

[00:10:51] So I, for clients, so the writing in my, websites is very much geared up to how I am. It's playful, quite humorous, light hearted. And there'll be people who read it and think, oh, I couldn't work with her. She's just not the right person for me. And that's fine. That's good. That's, let's get that out of the way quickly. So my pipeline of new clients is relatively small, but my conversion rate is quite high because people have read in my blogs. What I'm like and therefore they kind of know what I'd be like to work with.

[00:11:19] Ross: We'll include all the links to your websites in the show notes, but just tell us the names or the directions of the websites, if you would.

[00:11:27] Charlotte: Yeah. So there's charlotte Sheridan. co. uk is my coaching site and it's got all sorts. I, I do photography in my spare time as well and I've got a number of, coaching products that use my photography. So that's on there. and then I've got swim, jump, fly, which is the book, swim, jump, fly. com. And that's got lots of stuff that's useful, not just for people who want to read the book, who maybe want to can't afford a coach. The book is sort of self coaching. It's kind of, if you can't afford one, it's your coach. So there's lots of lovely examples of exercises and things that [00:12:00] people can do on there. But it's also really quite a useful resource for coaches and people developers too. So everyone's very welcome. Just take whatever they want from the site.

[00:12:08] And there's a third one actually, Liminal Muse, which is the coaching product. So primarily for

[00:12:14] coaches and people, developers.

[00:12:16] Ross: and

[00:12:16] tell us a little bit about that, that liminal muse. These are cards, is that right?

[00:12:22] Charlotte: that's right. Um, we're not, I think we're not recording this on, on video, but I'm going to show you so that you can bring it live for you. But it's called Liminal Muse Conversation Cards. Um, and it's basically based on my photography. And many of the images are, abstract. So you can't really, you don't really know what they are.

[00:12:40] And that enables people to see within that image what they want to see. for having me. And there are some, for example, there's one particular image that people tend to really enjoy using, and they all call it the log pile. And what's interesting about it is it's not a log pile, but I don't tell them that it's what it is, because if they want, a lot of people will say things like, um, oh yeah, I really want more structure in my work, or I want a bit more of a kind of stronger foundation, things lined up a bit more clearly.

[00:13:08] And if I said to them it wasn't a log pile, it would sort of undermine their metaphor. Or they, they're storytelling around it. So I use this a lot in coaching. I use it in, in

[00:13:19] group facilitation as well.

[00:13:20] Ross: Lovely. It's lovely just to glimpse a few of those, just for the listener. There was one with some quite geometric shadows I could see. The log pile, for me, that was more a a pathway. not regular paving slabs, but with a real richness of color.

[00:13:40] Charlotte: Yeah.

[00:13:41] Ross: And, there was another beautiful image you showed of, of, a close up of, of peacock feathers. And you're very much pinging all my circuits there because I love to use visuals with, with coaching clients to help unlock thinking different perspectives.

[00:13:57] Charlotte: I partnered with a occupational [00:14:00] psychology organization Who have a online Platform called Deckhive and it's got I think 20 or so sets of cards on there. One of them is mine. Um, I I just offer them to them and they They sell them as part of their deck, but I use them all the time.

[00:14:17] And I used them the other day, actually, in a, in a workshop I was running for, for the association of business psychologists. And, uh, so that you can actually do it where it's interactive. It's like a whiteboard, but it's interactive online. So if I'm coaching with a client, just one on one, they can access and they can pull out the cards they want to play with, and I can see what they've chosen.

[00:14:37] So we can use it that way as well.

[00:14:40] Ross: It's great to know they're also available virtually as well as perhaps holding them up. Thank you. So that was quite a little tangent we took, but again, it speaks to your, it speaks to your creativity and your, your desire to support others in unlocking what's meaningful for them. So I want to bring my attention and our attention back to the book.

[00:15:02] So when you started the research, the book was in your mind.

[00:15:05] Is that right?

[00:15:06] Charlotte: yes, very much so. I wanted to, um, I, in the past I'd written a novel, which has never gone anywhere. Um, I might resurrect it at some point. It's about Neanderthals. but that's a whole other conversation. but I wanted to turn my attention to writing in a way that was not, fiction. And to do, to write a book that was going to be helpful.

[00:15:28] And it had struck me that there was only so many hours in the day, you know, in our kind of work, we, we don't tend to do so much one to many. If we're doing coaching, it's tends to be more of one to one. Um, I do do some group work.

[00:15:40] Poss intro WHY the book

[00:15:40] Charlotte: I just felt I wanted to make a difference. I wanted to. be there for other people in a way that would support them when I couldn't support them.

[00:15:49] and you've read the book and you may have felt this, but it feels for me like very much like a conversation all the way through. It's a conversation I tried to [00:16:00] imagine I was in a coaching session with somebody and coaching them and supporting them and being curious and interested in them and a kind of genuine goodbye at the end of the book, which was heartfelt, you know, So there was an element of me wanting to democratize coaching and psychology to have a bigger impact on the world than perhaps I could personally, by writing it all in a book.

[00:16:21] I'm making it more accessible, so from a cost perspective, you know, coaching can be expensive. A lot of people can't afford it, but they might be able to afford a book. So that was my

[00:16:31] goal.

[00:16:32] Ross: And don't underestimate how much your voice comes through.

[00:16:36] It really does feel like a conversation. And that's, that is so skilled. So tell me, tell me a bit more about your creative approach.

[00:16:43] Charlotte: yeah. we talked in a previous episode about, my energy levels. And that at the start of projects I often have a lot of energy and at the end I have a lot less. And so I kind of know this. And before I started writing, I gathered together a group of people in a book club. And these were people who were blog readers, or friends, or they were ex colleagues, or consultants, some of them are therapists.

[00:17:10] And I asked them if they would be interested in joining this book club, and it would be basically me sharing the ideas of the book every couple of weeks. And I would share with them the content of two chapters, not written, just ideas, and ask them for feedback. And this really helped me because it gave me accountability and deadlines, but also opened my eyes up to things that I was missing or couldn't see. And sometimes the feedback was fantastic and it, very affirming. And sometimes it was very difficult, because they might say, well that was a bit rubbish, and I don't like that idea, and I wouldn't suggest going down that route, and really, no, what are you thinking? Um, and I found it difficult, but it was good, because I would say the book is a whole heap better than it would have been.

[00:17:57] And I think it's building on that thing I said earlier about having the [00:18:00] choir. So I, I have the choir of all of the storytellers, all the people who've been through change. And then I've got on the side here a little kind of maybe quartet of people who are also gonna sing alongside with me, maybe when the choir isn't singing.

[00:18:14] So there was something that sense of doing it together with others, it was a sense of they, they had a sense of ownership to some degree. They all got a free book at the end of it. And they all came to, many of them came to my book launch, but there was a sense of we did it together, which I super enjoyed it

[00:18:29] Ross: and again, I see that courage in you. The courage to engage with the quartet as you go through the writing process and a testament to you building relationships with them, the depth of the relationship with them, that they were willing to give you affirming feedback, but also, like, Charlotte, what are you thinking of?

[00:18:50] Kind of feedback. That's such an interesting thing and

[00:18:56] Really does, does bring that extra richness, I think. The choir and the quartet.

[00:19:01] Charlotte: Can I add one other thing, which I think they really helped me with, too? One of my aims with the book was, um, I'd read a whole heap of self help books in my life, and some of them are great, and some of them are awful. and I felt that they weren't evidence based, a lot of them. It was, this is how I did the thing, and now you have to follow exactly what I did, and it will work for you.

[00:19:19] And I felt that wasn't a very good, way to go, because life isn't like that. And so I wanted it to be evident, evidence based, but I didn't want it to be one of these super heavy tomes, psychological kind of, I find sometimes

[00:19:31] reading, uh, psychology journal articles super hard, because they're just, you know, they're, it's a struggle.

[00:19:37] And I thought, if I struggle and I've got two degrees in psychology and a diploma in coaching psychology, what about everyone else? So I wanted to make it really accessible, but I also wanted to bring that kind of theoretical underpinning. And so. That's how I got into ACT actually because a colleague of mine is an ACT practitioner and clinical psychologist and coach and she Introduced me to ACT and said well, I think you should have some of ACT in your book [00:20:00] so I started experimenting and reading out at that point I didn't know very much and actually if I were to go back and redo the book I'd do it differently because I know more now.

[00:20:08] but it was a really lovely kind of introduction to more depth in the book. So I felt there was this sort of balance of theory but also light heartedness and that's, that was what I was hoping for is something that was a bit of both. one of my favorite bits of feedback is that somebody said that they thought the book was both light and and deep at the same time.

[00:20:29] And I thought, Oh, that's exactly what I wanted. I wanted a range of storytelling, but also some theory behind it as

[00:20:36] well.

[00:20:36] Some evidence based.

[00:20:38] Ross: I can see me, first of all, we were just talking. I, I can see me buying a hard copy as well, because I have the copy on my Kindle. But when I'm thinking about change and supporting clients or organizations, I want to be able to. flick through your book and just think about how you presented that theory, or the other theory, or that research.

[00:20:58] So I can see it being a useful go to book for me in that respect too.

[00:21:05] Charlotte: Yeah. I mean, it was an unexpected, uh, audience actually, because I had written it specifically for people who were navigating change and finding it tough and needing some help. And we're not professionals. We're not practitioners. And then a bunch of people started buying it who were coaches and saying, Oh, this is really helpful.

[00:21:25] Either because I was sharing ideas or theories or stories or ways of working that they nicked. Totally happy for them to just take it and use it. Or another route that people were using, they were using it as a workbook. So they'd buy it for their client or suggest their client buys it. And then they'd go back to the exercises in the book.

[00:21:46] And then use those exercises in between coaching sessions. So quite a lot of the people who bought it are using it as a way of supporting a client outside of the coaching session. So it kind of gives them a continuity of support [00:22:00] when they're not having coaching. So I have to say, I would say probably 50 percent of the people buying it seem to be people, developers, therapists, coaches, psychologists.

[00:22:09] And I was shocked by that. Not shocked, but surprised by that. one of my coaching colleagues showed me a book, a copy of it, and it's full of, you know, those stickies and she opened it up and it was sort of full of underlining and colors.

[00:22:22] And, and I thought,

[00:22:23] yeah,

[00:22:23] that's exactly how I meant for it to be used.

[00:22:26] Ross: Wonderful. And I wonder if you wouldn't mind just talking

[00:22:29] us through the title, the three words.

[00:22:32] because that, I think that's a really powerful, one

[00:22:34] of the models in the book. And

[00:22:39] Charlotte: areas of investigation. One is a personal one and one was the research. So personally. When I was going through this career shift, I felt like I had to change everything. I felt like everything had to be different because nothing was working for me. And there was this sense that that's why I went off to think about alpaca farming.

[00:22:56] And I mean, how, how close is alpaca farming to management consultancy? I mean, it really is quite far away or beekeeping or decluttering. so there's this idea that in order to create successful, appetizing change, I had to change everything. And in the research, and that was something I was kind of mulling over myself and in the research, I came across a number of people who had tried the same thing that they jumped out of what they were doing into something completely different.

[00:23:21] And they almost did it too quickly, and they didn't really know where they were going. And they felt they had to have this massive shift in order to, to create changes in their career. And over time, as I was doing the thematic analysis, it became very clear to me that there were different types of change.

[00:23:35] There was people who made smaller, more incremental change. There were others who maybe did slightly, kind of, bigger moves and then there were those who made super big changes in their life. And some of them were successful and some of them were not. And it seemed to me that there was a particular theme here about the fit with someone's personality and their approach.

[00:23:54] That if one is kind of risk averse, the last thing you need to do is go off and just change [00:24:00] everything all at once. It's overwhelming. And actually, you can change the size or the steps of the changes you make and make them smaller and more manageable. So I came up with this idea about swim, jump, and fly.

[00:24:10] Swim being Moving in kind of close waters and jumping being going a little distance, but not too far and then flying is I'm far away and doing something so totally different. And then I wanted to bring it to life with a kind of metaphor. And so I thought of animals that would fit those categories and says the fish, there's a grasshopper and there's a bird.

[00:24:29] And so throughout the book, it's full of cartoons of fish, grasshoppers and birds. And it brings a life, different people who I interviewed, who made those shifts, sometimes successfully, because it was well aligned with their personality and their approach, and others who went too far. And I was one of the people that went too far, because I didn't need to shift myself considerably.

[00:24:49] actually what I needed to shift was some of the ways I did the work, not really the content. So I did want to do psychology, I did want to work with people, I did want to coach and train people, but not in the way, not the way I was doing it, which was part of a big consultancy. So it's a core part of the book, which is find where you fit best.

[00:25:09] For this moment, because it might shift, and then adapt your goals and your, you know, actions to fit you better so that you're more

[00:25:17] likely to be successful. So yeah, that's a core

[00:25:20] part of Swim, Jump, Fly.

[00:25:21] Ross: I think it works works really well. those, those animal associations to really, really help embed. When I press pause on a, what I'm thinking about, I can then think about the fish, the grasshopper or the, or the bird. And it gives me more of a structure to, to hang things on.

[00:25:39] Charlotte: People said they like that, they find that interesting. Others who didn't like the metaphor, didn't like the birds and the animals, I just say to them, just think small, medium or

[00:25:50] large change. Because there are

[00:25:51] some people

[00:25:51] who find

[00:25:52] metaphors

[00:25:52] Ross: Hmm. And during the whole process of the book, what kept you going?

[00:25:57] Charlotte: Um, partly the accountability, [00:26:00] because I said I would do it. having talked to my husband, he said I, I tend to do a thing where I say I'm going to do something, and then I get gratification for saying I'm going to do it. And he said to me, wouldn't it be just better if you actually just wrote the book rather than telling people that you were writing the book?

[00:26:16] And so there was this sort of, there was a bit of an element of right, well, okay, thank you for that, uh, that difficult feedback. I'm going to show you, I'm going to show you that I can do it. I also didn't want to let down all the people that I'd interviewed. They were waiting to see themselves in the book.

[00:26:34] I didn't want to let down the people that had given me accountability in the book group. And I thought, come on, this is, you've always wanted to write a book, you know, you've half heartedly written a novel. Now is your time. And so I

[00:26:46] just kept going.

[00:26:47] And I'm delighted I did, actually.

[00:26:49] Ross: Me too. And did stuff show up along the way that

[00:26:52] really got in the way?

[00:26:54] Charlotte: Yep. Defensiveness on difficult feedback. Well, they just don't understand what I'm, well, clearly they don't understand what I'm, I mean, they just must be stupid because I'm, clearly this isn't obvious to me. So there was trying to get over that sort of pride and damaged pride of like, oh, they think that's rubbish.

[00:27:10] I'm going to have to take the whole of that section out. perfectionism. Um, laziness. Oh, whole raft of things. Um, what will people think of me? Have I put too much of myself in? Is it going to be embarrassing because I've got some, there are, there are, as you've read, there are some stories of me in there. and I think I went, some of them I went back and took sort of honed those stories a little.

[00:27:32] I thought, ah, there's too much of me in here. This is not about me. So I took some of them out. Yeah, lots of stuff showed up. It was, it was actually therapy, really. It was sort of self therapy. And it took me, in the end, it took me, I would say, two years from start to finish. From the moment I started the research to the end of,

[00:27:49] I would

[00:27:49] say the book launch was probably the point at

[00:27:51] which I could let it go.

[00:27:52] Ross: Blimey, that feels very quick. I'm just, yeah, I'm just thinking, 108 participants transcribing [00:28:00] thematic analysis.

[00:28:01] That would probably take me five years. before I even started to write. So, That feels very, very rapid.

[00:28:07] Charlotte: And can I say something about writing? For anyone, any of your, um, pea soupers who are listening and fancy writing a book, and when they say to you, oh, when you've written the book, that's not even half of the work. And you think, oh, they don't know what they're talking about. Of course it's more than half the work.

[00:28:20] I've written the book. It isn't. It's about a third of the work. Because there is so much work put into editing, You know, getting designers involved, getting editors involved, changing stuff, checking all of your data sources if it's not, um, if it's not a novel. it really, there is, I found that tedious, that part actually.

[00:28:41] I'm not good at that kind of stuff. I have to thank my husband for getting me through

[00:28:45] that. He was brilliant.

[00:28:47] Ross: Thank you for the wise words from your experience.

[00:28:51] Now, would you have a takeaway for the P supers?

[00:28:54] Charlotte: Yeah, I want to reiterate the piece I said before. I want to go into maybe a little bit more detail on the how versus the what. I, I came across this so many, in so many of the interviews that I ran that, that, that people were mistaking the things they wanted to shift. They were thinking they had to shift the what piece, which is, oh, I don't like being an accountant, or I'm not sure I like working in offices, or I don't like working in groups, or, um, I don't like the content of what I do.

[00:29:21] I think they were, they were kind of focusing on the wrong bit. They were thinking it was that they had to change their work. And actually, sometimes it can be the how of what we do, which is, do I want to run my own business? Do I want to work from home? Do I want to, have more agency in the kind of work that I do?

[00:29:40] And actually we, conflate the two. And actually those people that were really good at separating those two and working out, being very specific about what they wanted to change, were much more successful because they were focusing on the right thing. Um, so I'd say yes. Think about the, the what, what is it that I do?

[00:29:58] So for you and me, [00:30:00] it's working, uh, with people and coaching and doing a training, um, versus the, how that we do it. Do you love doing it in person, Ross? Do you like doing it, online? Do you like doing it in Spain where you live or would you, do you actually enjoy the piece of kind of going around the world and doing it in different places?

[00:30:18] So being very clear about the separation of those two different things, the what of it versus the how of it. Um, and then work on the piece that is the, the most troublesome to you, as opposed to doing both.

[00:30:30] Ross: Beautiful. Thank you so much. That makes so much sense. And thanks for Thanks for directing it, using me as an example, because it's already getting me thinking. Because I think sometimes I have the balance right.

[00:30:42] Charlotte: Mm.

[00:30:43] Ross: And sometimes maybe I'd like to do more here in Spain.

[00:30:47] Charlotte: Mm.

[00:30:48] Ross: With the ideas of things like retreats or,

[00:30:51] Charlotte: Lovely. Yeah.

[00:30:52] Ross: taking people out of their environment.

[00:30:56] So watch this space.

[00:30:57] Charlotte: you involve bees in

[00:30:59] that

[00:30:59] Ross: Well, I think by then we'd have an

[00:31:01] established

[00:31:02] Charlotte: bee

[00:31:03] Ross: yes, yes, and we'd be, we'd have our outfits.

[00:31:07] So, yes, pea soupers, watch, watch out for News on Bees as well. It's taken an interesting turn, this, this, this potential collaboration, so who knows? Or it might, we might change tack and it might be alpacas or almonds.

[00:31:24] Charlotte: All almonds. Oh,

[00:31:27] Ross: thank you so much for joining me on

[00:31:29] PeopleSoup. It's been an absolute joy and very grateful for your generosity.

[00:31:33] Charlotte: it's been lovely. I've been, I've so enjoyed the conversation.

[00:31:36]

[00:31:41] Ross: That's it, the second part of my chat with Charlotte in the bag. Do go over to the swimjumpfly. com website to read a section of the book before you buy it. You won't regret it. Next week, I'm picking up on my collaboration with Dr. Richard MacKinnon that we started in Season 5. And we'll be discussing [00:32:00] values and how we can get clarity on our values.

[00:32:02] you'll find all the details for this episode in the show notes at peoplesoup.

[00:32:06] captivate. fm or wherever you get your podcasts. If you like this episode, we'd love it if you told us why. You can help me reach more people with the special people soup ingredients. Stuff that could be really useful for them. So please do share, subscribe, rate and review. Thanks to Andy Glenn for his spoon magic.

[00:32:26] And Alex Engelberg for his vocals. But most of all, dear listener, thanks to you. Look after yourselves, pea soupers, and bye for now.

[00:32:36] Charlotte: Good. Can I, can I give you some feedback? You have beautiful segues. I love There were times when I took us off track and you'd be like, Oh, boop, boop, boop. We're not, we're not in the core content anymore, but you're really good at going, right. So, um, I think what I'd really like to

[00:32:53] focus on, you know, you just

[00:32:54] found that

[00:32:55] really very

[00:32:55] beautiful way of moving it back to where

[00:32:58] you need

[00:32:58] it to be.