00:00:00 Nazish: Most of us don't avoid death because we are morbid. We avoid it because we are busy, busy surviving, busy achieving, busy proving we are okay. But here's the quiet truth. When we stop pretending we have unlimited time, a body often exhales first. Then we are talking about morality, awareness not as a fear, but as a gentle compass watched back to what matters.

00:00:37 Nazish: Welcome back to Inner Peace, Better health. We are here to explore the mind body connection in a way that feels calming, real, and doable. I am Nazish and today I am joined by Doctor Seth DavidClark, a leadership coach, researcher, ordained clergy member, and a former hospice chaplain who spent years helping people make meaning when life changes shape. A topic today is mortality awareness. How. Remembering that life is finite and can support your inner steadiness, reduce stress and guide healthier choices without becoming heavy or hopeless. Welcome to the show, Doctor Seth.

00:01:25 Seth Clark: Thank you Nazish. It's good to be here. And I'm happy to talk about, um, mortality awareness and inner peace. Something that might seem like they don't go together, but but we're going to try today.

00:01:38 Nazish: Wonderful. I'm so glad that you're here. I am curious, when did mortality stop being an abstract idea for you and start feeling personal?

00:01:49 Seth Clark: MM. Um, I think the first time was when my grandmother was dying. I was, um, I grew up in a suburb of Minneapolis in Minnesota in the, in the United States. And so, um, we had a backyard and in the backyard we had a swing set. So like a miniature playground. And I was sitting on the swing and I knew that my grandmother, my father's mother, was dying. I was about eight years old, um, almost nine. And I knew she was dying. And that was the first time that death was near. Right. It was the first time that someone that I knew and that I loved was not going to be around much longer. And so that was, I think, the first time that mortality awareness really entered my frame of mind. And, um, and from there, you know, it kept growing because I got older and so did other people. And so other people also did not, um, survive. And so I think it's like that for many children, right? They, the circle of death gets closer and closer until, um, hopefully not when they're still children, but, um, sometimes that does happen that the death, you see it, um, in your inner circle, not just your outer circle.

00:03:11 Nazish: Absolutely. And I appreciate how human that is. You know, not a theory, but a moment. Your system felt, you know, let's just stay there with it. And I've heard a lot of people say, oh, mortality awareness and assume it's dark, depressing or pessimistic. What do you think people misunderstand the most about it?

00:03:36 Seth Clark: Yeah. So I, you know, it can be very pessimistic depending on how you how you frame it and how you think about it. Right? Some people, when they think about their death, it gives them anxiety and then they make rash decisions, right? They, they'll hear, um, they have a diagnosis, even if it's not a fatal one. And they'll, they'll just kind of go off and act, act like they have, they don't correspond with reality anymore. Their mind or their heart. And, um, the thing is though, is that like any other relationship with something, an object, a subject, whatever it is, we have, um, our own agency in that. And so we get to choose what our relationship with death is, right? We don't get to choose when it happens to us, right? But we do get to choose how we will approach it, how we will respond to it, how we will think about it and what our emotions are around it. Maybe not perfectly, but certainly more than we give ourselves credit for, right? So if you think about, uh, let's say a marriage relationship, right? Um, there's two people and each person chooses how they interact with the other, right? And, and let's say, um, I'm married, right? I have a wife and let's say my wife does something and, and I don't like it. Right? Um, it's up to me to react a certain way, right? And so if I'm, um, angry or upset. Right. That that hurts her, I guess, but it hurts me the most, right? But with death deaths coming anyway, right? We can't hurt death, and death will never be our friend, right? I can have repair relationship with my wife, right? Because we're both beings. But I can't with death. I'm the only one who has agency in in this thing called life and death. And so it's up to me to figure out what to do with that. And the first time, um, I heard this concept of befriending your death, um, in, in a serious way was with a friend and mentor. His name is Michael Christensen and he's a retired professor of Christian theology. And he learned it from Henri Nouwen, who was a psychologist and Catholic priest. So befriend your death. And I heard that. And inside of me, you know, I felt this this rush of negative energy, really kind of a dark energy. And, um, because I didn't like it, I didn't like this idea at all that we could have a relationship with death in a way that actually gives us power to live better, right? And that we could, in our understanding of how death will come. Actually make that death into a gift, perhaps the most important gift we can ever give our loved ones, right? Because if we die, well, if we die, well, that is the memory they they'll keep with them, right? If we die in close relationship with others, um, having, you know, the old sins or the old misdeeds forgiven on both sides, then we can truly give life to the people even though our life is ending. And I think that's so powerful, right? Because again, it gives us the ability to have agency and to, to take what is ours in this relationship with death, right? And, and to really live into it in a way that is uncommon, right? And is powerful.

00:07:00 Nazish: You know, it's not a thinking about death all day. It's noticing how avoidance tightens in us and how honest contact with reality can actually soften the nervous system.

00:07:13 Seth Clark: Yes. Yeah. And that's it. The reality, right, is, um, part of this death awareness is not just to, like you said, not just to be morbid, but to really take stock of what is real, what's really happening out there, what's really happening inside of me in terms of my thoughts and emotions and to, um, to base our lives and our choices and our thoughts on reality as much as we can and not on, um, what we wish for or we hope for, or even what we are averse to, right? And what we try to avoid, but to take stock of reality and to, to face it head on.

00:07:51 Nazish: And it brings me to the next thing that in your work, especially with people facing retirement or identity shift, what is the mortality anxiety often really about? Like, is it the end or is it something else we are grieving?

00:08:10 Seth Clark: Oh, that's a good question. And I think it's, it's mixed. And, um, and I don't have any, uh, major results from my research yet. So it's still ongoing. But as I, as I enter into it, I, some thoughts do arise and I think, um, there's grief, right? There's some grief in retirement of what's already lost. Right? And so the Stoics, the ancient Greek philosophy, the stoicism, right? Those folks would talk about how every day before us was a day of death. Right. And then they would even go so far as to say, what is the last day of death? The day that my body dies, it is no different. Right. And that's that's pretty strong. I don't know if we need to go that far, but to consider everything before us as something that is lost, right? We keep with it the memories and things like that. Um, but we, we have no action, no agency in those things. Um, that's also a way to ground yourself in reality. And so, um, the thing is though that some people, myself included, right? We cling to the past, right? There's still this craving for, for what we could have done or what we would have liked to have done better, or the status we may be used to have. And so, um, people, especially high powered people who retire, right? Their identity was in their work. And so now that identity is dead, it's gone. And there's this grieving process that not everyone really comes to term with, you know, some people, um, what do they do? They, they spend their time in retirement and they like in the United States, at least they'll go golfing a lot, right? They'll go golfing and they'll, they'll have lots of fun in that way. And, and some of it is, is, I'm sure, kind of healthy. It's good to be doing this exercise and getting some sunshine, but some of it I think is also avoidance right there, avoiding the fact that they used to be someone and now they are not, at least in their own thinking, right? There's still someone, but they feel like they were powerful and now they're not. And so they're avoiding it with pleasure seeking. Um, and others, right? They can't, they just can't slow down. So they might be, um, retired in name, but they'll continue, uh, working in various ways because, um, their identity is still tied to this, this productive self, right? And there's nothing wrong with being productive, right? I mean, I'm doing PhD research and I have, um, life, death and leadership, uh, a company and I'm still doing Christian ministry and, and I still have a family, right? So there's nothing wrong with being productive, but, um, sometimes we, we are more attached and this is still true in retirement. We're more attached than is probably healthy, right? And in that attachment, we are less likely to find what the show is about. Inner peace, because inner peace oftentimes has to do with B being less attached, right? And so in terms of, um, these folks, they also have what I kind of call an immortality project, right? So their, their previous life, now that they're retired, their previous life was the life of, of building some sort of, um, legacy, some sort of edifice, some sort of tower to what they had. And, and it's like an immortal legacy, one that they don't ever expect to walk away from. And so if that's the case, right, if they're, they're pushing ahead, pushing ahead, pushing ahead, work, work, work for decades and decades. And then it's stripped away the work, the title, the prestige, the power. Um, then this, this glimpse of mortality comes in a new way, in a strong way, in a way that some people are resilient and face very well. But some people, you know, they have a harder time. And so there are just like, there's, um, many ways to grieve, but there are many ways to grieve. And, uh, when I was doing bereavement care as a hospice chaplain, you know, I learned there's no wrong way to grieve. And so I don't want to cast judgment on people who are going through loss and grief in any way. Um, and at the same time, there are coping mechanisms and there are strategies that are more helpful in the long run than when other ones. And so, so we, uh, we, we move ahead and we hope, um, with these retired folks and for us that were not yet retired, that when we face loss, we can do so with resilience. And, and again, part of that is, is keeping the end in mind and seeing reality as it is and coming into it with a place of of peace through acceptance.

00:12:51 Nazish: Absolutely. That is going to land with a lot of our listeners because it's not just panic. It's overwork, perfectionism, constant optimization.

00:13:04 Seth Clark: Yes.

00:13:06 Nazish: If we treat mortality awareness like a tool for inner peace and not as a philosophical exercise, what is a simple practice you would offer that's actually sustainable, something people can do in real life?

00:13:21 Seth Clark: Yes. I think, um, breath exercises are helpful. Right. And, and in breath exercises, there's different things you can think about or try not to think. Move beyond thinking. Um, but for this particular one, I would offer, um, that as you breathe in, right? Uh, you breathe in life and as you breathe out, you breathe out death. And when you think about that, notice the feelings that arise. Notice the thoughts that arise. Notice the reality in which you live, the reality made up in your mind and the reality outside. And so just some, some breaths in breathing in life, right? The joy, the, the pain, whatever is in that. In the life. And then breathing out, right? Breathing out the death. And because what happens when we die? We breathe our last breath. And, and just that practice of noticing along the way. Well, I think if you allow yourself to have more acceptance and you allow yourself to, um, come at this from a place of, of hopefully more peace, um, it'll help, It'll help you as you consider what it is that you're actually afraid of, or what it is that might be disgusting about death or what it is that is that negative emotion around death, right? So some people, they're afraid, they're afraid of non-existence. They're afraid of what comes after death, whatever it might be. And some people are disgusted, right? They, if they see, um, a dead animal in the street, they have to look away. Right? Or if they, um, you know, even see someone bleeding or something, they just can't handle it. Right? And so there's this sense of disgust. And so we have these different emotions, these different deep seated feelings around mortality and just allowing ourselves through a calm practice of breath to, to notice those things so that we can, um, take that next step, the next step of acceptance.

00:15:20 Nazish: I love that distinction because, you know, awareness as presence and not as a performance. So here's the challenge. It's it's a challenging angle. They want to explore more because our listeners might be thinking it. You know, some people say thinking about death is unnecessary. Just focus on living. Others say mortality awareness can even increase anxiety for certain personalities. Where do you agree or where do you gently disagree?

00:15:52 Seth Clark: Yeah. So I think if someone's experiencing, you know, clinical levels of anxiety or certain kinds of depression, um, adding, adding the terror of death to those folks, um, is probably not the right move, right? So I'm not a psychologist, so I wouldn't be able to say exactly, um, at what threshold that is. And at the same time, people living their, their normal life, right? There's this aversion, there's this avoidance, right? I would say that allowing ourselves courageously and slowly if we have to. But, um, allowing ourselves to accept death and even befriend it, right. To give us more agency and more love in our own lives. Um, I think that's, that's an invitation, right? I don't want anyone to feel like they should do this, like this is necessary for, um, you to be happy or something like that. And at the same time, I think many, many ancient wisdom traditions and then also, um, some more recent scientific studies show that facing the hard things, allowing the hard things to be, um, part of our awareness can really help us become more resilient. And so if happiness is just being happy, go lucky and sunshine and lollipops, well, this isn't going to help with that. But if happiness is something, um, thicker, richer has more depth, more of a deep seated joy or resilience or thriving or flourishing, then I think this can can help us expand that inner peace, can help us expand, um, a life that really is, is interested in taking things as they are and not how we wish them to be. And honestly, that's, that's tough. That's tough. But I think it's where many of us want to go who are on this journey towards towards something better, something deeper.

00:17:59 Nazish: Absolutely. I couldn't agree more with you, you know, so practically, if mortality awareness spikes someone's anxiety, what's the middle part like? How do they build capacity without forcing it and when should they step back and ground first?

00:18:18 Seth Clark: Yes. So I would say if mortality is is too big, right? Too big of a bite of the apple. We'll take a smaller bite and maybe it's something else that's difficult. I think there's research that shows that it doesn't necessarily have to be death, but, um, allowing ourselves to sit in the discomfort of something hard gives us more resilience around things in general. Right? And especially the thing that we're sitting in discomfort with. And so maybe it's, maybe it's a situation at work, right? Maybe you have a boss who is a terrible to you, or maybe you're having a conflict with someone in your family, or maybe there's, um, there's some financial issues, right? And so allowing yourself to sit with this hard thing, right? And not let yourself just react, not let yourself, um, run away from it as fast as possible, but allowing yourself to, to see it, to note it to in some way, if you can do so allow yourself to have loving capacity for it and for yourself in it. I think that kind of thing, even if little by little, can help us really, um, start facing the bigger, harder things of life, right? Many people are avoidant of the, the hard things because they're hard, right? And this makes perfect sense, right? We don't want to have life full of hard things on our mind all the time, and to grow to the level that some of us might want to. Um, it also is a training ground so that when life does get hard, because it will, we're more ready to, to meet the day when it comes.

00:20:05 Nazish: this is so important that this isn't about flooding the mind with fear. It is about earning steadiness slowly with compassion.

00:20:16 Seth Clark: Yes.

00:20:17 Nazish: So, you know, for our listeners who feel quite dread at night or, or, or, or, or a heaviness they can't name. If you could ask them one question that feels compassionate and steady, what would it be?

00:20:33 Seth Clark: MM. It would be a two part question, if that's okay. And, and focusing on the compassion. Right. How can you how can you befriend yourself in this hard situation? And how can you befriend the situation itself? Right? Because in, in those two questions, right? You're, you're finding the self-compassion, you're finding the love, but then also as you, um, consider what's outside of you, the situation itself, you're finding compassion for what is out there, the other people, the other situations, right? And then also the love, right? And love is more than you know, a fun idea or a song or a good romance movie. But love is an action that takes commitment and strength because especially in these hard situations, right? Love, um, love really takes a lot of courage and really takes a lot of strength. And so I would say, yeah, start there, start with befriending yourself in the situation and trying to befriend the situation itself.

00:21:45 Nazish: That is absolutely beautiful. And that feels like a hand on shoulder and not a lecture.

00:21:52 Seth Clark: Yes.

00:21:53 Nazish: Thank you so much for that. And you know, one thing that I am going to take away from this conversation with you is that mortality awareness isn't meant to shrink your life. It's meant to clarify it. So your body can stop breathing and your heart can start choosing what truly matters.

00:22:14 Seth Clark: I agree. Yeah. That clarity is is so much to the point.

00:22:17 Nazish: Yeah. So, Seth, for people who want to learn more about your work, your research and your coaching and your upcoming book, where's the best place for them to find you?

00:22:28 Seth Clark: I think the best place right now is on LinkedIn. So. Seth davidclark, um, just search for me there and, and you can find me there. And then, um, my websites are under construction, but, uh. Seth Davidclark.com that might be easy to remember. And then also the company website life, death and leadership dot com. And that's where there's courses and coaching opportunities as well. But I look forward to connecting with all of the listeners.

00:22:54 Nazish: Perfect. I will make sure to include all these details into the show notes so that a lot of people can reach out to you and, you know, thank you so much for joining us today on Inner Peace, Better Health.

00:23:07 Seth Clark: Thank you. Nazish. It's been a pleasure.

00:23:10 Nazish: Wonderful. And dear listeners, if today's conversation stirred something in you, please don't rush to fix it. Just notice it. Maybe tonight, instead of scrolling, you take one slow breath and ask, what do I want to be true about how I live while I am here? This is inner peace, better health. And if this episode helped you find a little more grounded in your body and clear your choices, follow the show because we keep returning to the same gentle truth. Mental peace and physical health are not separate journeys. I am nazish and I'll be with you again the next time.