Nina: [00:00:00] Hi I'm Nina Endrst.

Anna: [00:00:05] I'm Anna Toonk.

Nina: [00:00:06] Welcome to How To Be Human.

Anna: [00:00:08] A podcast that explores the common and often confusing themes of humanness.

Nina: [00:00:12] In this episode, Anna and I discuss Personal Power.

Anna: [00:00:15] Take a seat, clear your mind, and let's chat

Nina: [00:00:23] Good afternoon, are you ready? Anna told me that I'm closet weird.

Anna: [00:00:31] You are; I stand by it. Nina is very weird y'all she just doesn't advertise it...

Nina: [00:00:36] Can give an example of that, how would I advertise my weirdness?

Anna: [00:00:41] I don't know, I mean, I seem to, I mean, I don't even know if I advertise it, I broadcast it.

Nina: [00:00:46] Well I feel, I don't think you know how to be any other way. I mean, not that you don't know how to be I'm sure you've been many weirds...

Anna: [00:00:53] Listen I could play many roles.

Nina: [00:00:54] ... once or twice but you've probably had to find your way to groups that appreciate your weirdness, right?

Anna: [00:01:01] It's true. Well, I've always thought a bit differently. And I think that whenever I tried to not to be, I would become this really creepy version of myself. So I think where I'm feeling, I always think of like Steve Buscemi when he's like, what's going on like  fellow young people or something. When I was trying to be less weird, I was just sort of like, "Hey, fellow youths." And I was just like it felt so weird that I had, I mean, even weirder.

But yeah, I think you like to keep your weirdness under wraps.

Nina: [00:01:38] I don't like to. I think I grew up in Connecticut. I think I literally grew up in Connecticut.

Anna: [00:01:45] That's a good point. That's a good point.

Nina: [00:01:46] Because it's just not the land of, you know and I wasn't trying to hide anything, but I think you just become so conditioned, you know. Everybody's kind of similar or acts like they're similar.

Anna: [00:02:01] I think you're also more suspicious of people than I am. And probably...

Nina: [00:02:04] I am 100% suspicious of everyone.

Anna: [00:02:07] In a good way.

Nina: [00:02:08] I want to like 1000%, I am suspicious of bordering on hyper-vigilant, like crazy person. We went to get ice cream the other day in the car, of course, COVID. And my husband ran in and Mylo and I were in the car and there was a kid across the street who was playing his music. And I was like, "He looks funny. What's going on with him?" I don't know. I was like, "I think we got to get out of here. And in all seriousness, I don't want my kid to be scared, but I am very suspicious. I was suspicious of the water guy today, who dropped off our Springwater. I'm suspicious of everyone.

Anna: [00:02:44] I mean it's not without the validity or merit in that it's probably a good time to be a little like, I mean, I don't know, I feel, I'm a bit of a puppy as a person and being like, "Hey, what's up, I mean, I don't like want to play fetch." And I've changed a lot. And the pandemic's changed me a lot, and politics have changed me a lot of being like, I don't want to judge people, I don't want to be, but then I’m also like I don't know, for me to really feel like I can communicate with you, be safe with you, I need to know these things. It has changed that.

Nina: [00:03:18] Yeah, that's a good point. And I feel like for me personally, I need people to not like jump through hoops, but like my weirdness is like my heart, it's who I really am.

So I feel like I come off sometimes a bit aloof or cold even, but I'm not, I'm just private. And that wasn't always that way. I used to be super social and out there with everybody, but again, I just learned where my energy was leaking, and where it wasn't helpful. And that's fine, that's part of life, but I'm definitely now a lot more private.

So what are we talking about tonight?

Anna: [00:03:58] Well, it's funny, I was going to say, it's funny you start with this, because I think my weirdness is one of my superpowers. Because, people don't think I'm going to be weird, and then they're like, "You're so weird."

Nina: [00:04:14] They don't think you're going to be weird? Have they not followed you on Instagram?

Anna: [00:04:17] Well, I mean, pre-Instagram, people were definitely caught off guard and like, whoa, this chick says some stuff. And then Instagram, at first, when I was like, "Oh, I'm really doing Instagram to be a tarot reader and was trying to be like everyone else. It was like, you are so, and I was like, "This is not me." But like Instagram in a lot of ways, was one of the biggest things that made me find the power in that. And it made me find the more that I leaned in and the more I was really myself, I got really positively rewarded for it. And I felt really seen in a big way. That it was kind of interesting and like all the time now, I mean, at this time I have a decent following, whatever I've worked at it. And even now sometimes I'll like throw something into my stories, and I'll be like, "I have, who knows, like, I think this is like really funny or weird, and I don't know why we don't talk about it." But who knows?

And it's really gratifying when all of a sudden people are like, "Uh yeah." I'm specifically talking about the series and if you want to look at my highlights called Hunks about why we're not talking about more men should be wearing short shorts and mid-drift shirts. like we saw in the seventies and early eighties. I don't know why that went away.

But I'm like a bit of a clown that went to college, not clown college. Because it's like funny, I was talking to a woman recently, because I actually brought up why don't men wear body suits this past weekend?

Nina: [00:05:44] Oh I saw that one.

Anna: [00:05:45] In my stories and you know what men don't like, men don't love to be objectified and I'm like, "Oh my God you don't like it?" “It makes you feel uncomfortable?”

Nina: [00:05:56] Aw that’s so sad.

Anna: [00:05:57] And that's really interesting to me too , I am not proud of this too...

Nina: [00:06:02] Ugh I'm rolling my eyes.

Anna: [00:06:03] I'm not proud of this but I'd like to be provocative, no, I don't. I think provocateurs can be annoying. But I like to have a conversation, hence like what we're doing now.

So we're talking about personal power and when I was going to give us a definition of that, which I will, but you're going to have to go on a little bit of a journey with me. I didn't realize how complex power is. I didn't realize how many kinds there are of it. I don't know if you were aware of this?

Nina: [00:06:28] I am aware, but I didn't purposely don't look up the definitions, because I like to hear them from you.

Anna: [00:06:34] I appreciate that, thank you. So power, the ability to act or produce an effect.

Nina: [00:06:40] Mh-hmm.

Anna: [00:06:41] Ability to get extra-base hits. That feels like a niche definition. Capacity for being acted upon or undergoing an effect, legal or official authority capacity or right.

Nina: [00:06:56] White men.

Anna: [00:06:57] Possession of control, possession of control, authority, or influence over others, chronically.

Nina: [00:07:01] White men.

Anna: [00:07:05] And then in personal power is the ability to influence people and events with, or without formal authority. Personal power is more of a person's attitude or state of mind, rather than an attempt to maneuver or control others. It's primary aim is self-mastery, competence, vision, positive personal (human) qualities, and service.

Nina: [00:07:34] Wow, I really like that definition.

Anna: [00:07:37] It's good, right? It took me a minute to find it. Because most of the definitions were really fucking creepy.

Nina: [00:07:42] Is that on Urban Dictionary?

Anna: [00:07:45] No. Well, you know where I was finding a lot of this stuff? Like the first definition of power is just from the good old Meriam Dictionary. I don't remember off the top, I have it saved where the personal power was, but it came from an online educational resource. It wasn't study.com, but something kind of like that. But then what was interesting is when I was trying to figure out what is a baseline definition for us. For you and I to work off of. It was all this stuff about management, which makes total sense. But one of the big things was like positional versus personal in terms of power and referent versus expert. And basically it was knowing the difference of like positional is like, you're the boss, therefore, that's why you have the power kind of the traditional meaning of power.

Nina: [00:08:36] The old parents’/kids conversation, not in our house because I said so.

Anna: [00:08:42] Exactly, I'm the authority. And then personal, it's like, you're literally commanding it.  That it's not just, like you're saying "I'm the mom." But it's like, my mom really good so I'm doing that. Referent was basically that you're revered. It's sort of like you're capitalizing on the way that people feel about you and respect you. And then expert is that you're literally knowledgeable about it, you literally are an expert about it.

And I just thought it was so interesting because, you and I talk about all these things all the time. In terms of what makes an expert? And I was curious, I have like my own kind of personal journey with the word power that I'll share at some point, but I was curious, have you been on a journey with power?

Nina: [00:09:47] Um yes I have, Anna. Thank you for inviting me into this podcast. 

Anna: [00:09:54] Could you tell us all about your personal journey with power?

Anna: [00:09:57] You know what I kept thinking, yes, I kept thinking about when you were describing it was something that radiates from within, not the white guy power, the white guy power we'll talk an aside. But the personal power, there's I think it's the cheetah in the animal deck, yeah it's the cheetah. The solar force, like the force from the light that shines outward because it is worked on or held with respect and deep work internally.

I have been working a lot, I'd say behind closed doors for many years on what that means like how I feel powerful, when I feel powerful. What it means, how I want to be in the world, right? But be at home. To what you said about being a mom, like Mylo will look at me sometimes, actually all the time, and will be like, "Mom, can I, can I do that?" Or "Look, mom, I'm doing it." Or "I'm not doing it mom." And it's not because he's scared by any means, it's because he really respects me and knows that I'm a good mom. And so my journey has been one of, again, I've talked about this a lot, like aggression, like just taking the power. I'm like, "Whatever I'm going to make my own fucking decisions. And I don't really care what happens, I'm just going to leave school or do something that is actually kind of self-destructive to assert my power. But really obviously that ends up hurting us.

And now moving into this space of getting quiet and sitting with it and understanding how to listen to what I'm trying to understand before I act, before I assert dominance or power even between me and me.

Anna: [00:11:56] It's cool that it benefits everyone else, but I agree. It's like, no, the power struggle within as well is very real.

Nina: [00:12:04] Yes the power struggle within, and that is so much more valuable. And has, I think really changed how I'm perceived, and I don't really care about how people view me, but I do care that people around me feel respected and respect me for the most part, right. The people that I want in my life anyway. And I want to know what you think about this or feel. It's so much to do with ethics, like what you stand for and what you will settle for, and what you won't, and what you'll compromise, and these white lies that we tell ourselves and refusing to do that really kind of brings you to a new place of personal power, don't you think?

Anna: [00:12:50] Mh-hmm, I do, but I think it took me a while to get there.

Nina: [00:12:56] Oh really, you didn’t get there? I got there like a really long time.

Anna: [00:13:00] I don't want to brag, but like I was way ahead of Anna on personal power.

No, I totally bought into the patriarchy.

Nina: [00:13:08] You did?

Anna: [00:13:09] I did. As baby Anna trying to make her way in television and production was very power hungry. And I think it came from a good place of, I was ambitious and I think I equated power with safety. So, I was looking at these people and seeing who was getting to do the work I wanted to do, or make decisions. I think power to me, I felt you got to play a lot more of like a hand in your own fate in a way.

Nina: [00:13:42] Yeah. Yeah.

Anna: [00:13:43] And so I was like, "Yes, give me that." I really wanted it and I don't think, I mean, like for better or worse, I am a really ethical person. Not to say I haven't done, wild shit or unethical things, but it's almost annoying. Like I have a very active conscience and I think lots of times I get jealous of people who don't. Because I'm like, what does that feel like?  Like to just be a dick must be cool.

Nina: [00:14:07] Like the people at concerts?

Anna: [00:14:09] It's true. It's true. But I'm just like, for a variety of reasons, like it's just hard for, I have other flaws like that's not really where I'm at. So I think in some ways that's good, because maybe if I hadn't been that way, I would have been like a much more toxic or damaging person.

But when I started to move into spirituality, all of a sudden I was like, oh, everything I think about power is incorrect. And I very much have misunderstood this. And I remember vividly, I told you, it's funny-

I always threaten you with stuff of like, I'm like, there's going to be a reading in the episode. She's like, "Great, I can't wait." She's like, I hope she forgets.

And guess what? This time I didn't. And there's a book called Lost at Sea by John Ronson, which I really like. He did an interview with Stanley Kubrick's wife and they were married for like 44 years, and her uncle made films for the Nazis. So here's a quote from his interview, Jon Ronson, the writer, Kubrick is no longer on earth. So she's saying about her uncle, she goes, "Well my uncle was an enormous fool as many talented people are, was that he mistook his gift for intelligence." Says Christian. "He was a great, big famous film person, he looked better and talk better and had enormous charm. So he thought he was far more intelligent than Mr. ... is it Goebbels? I never know how to say that correctly, which I should. But "Goebbels was 10,000 times smarter than my uncle." She pauses. "Film people, actors are puppets. We are silly, we are silly folk.” She says her uncle story reinforced for Stanley and her, their great principle in life, always be suspicious of people who have or crave power.

Nina: [00:15:58] I love that reading.

Anna: [00:16:01] I remember vividly. Being on the L getting off at the Bedford store, stop and sitting down to reread that paragraph again. And being like, "But Kubrick was so powerful." Like what? It really flummoxed me. And I was really deepening. figuring out like, "Okay, I think I'm going to do this tarot thing." I think I'm seeing where my life is going. And my therapist is also always said to me, "The point of therapy, it's not to not have problems. It's to know that no matter what you'll be okay.”

And that to me is power. Like that to me is like that center of self, of like no one can really take anything from me or damage me in a way if I don't allow it in a way. It's like what you give the weight and energy to or something like, I just remember it so vividly when I was like, "I have to completely rethink this thing. I've really been in pursuit of I've completely misunderstood it." And I had to redefine it for myself of like, "What is power? When do I feel powerful? What is my personal power? I was like, "Oh, I just didn't get it." Like, I didn't understand that I had been… Like, of course I'm looking to these white men in positions of power and thinking like, "I want that."

It all makes sense to me. I don't like feel bad about how I was behaving or what I did, I mean, that's the problem. That's why we've got to look at things-

Nina: [00:17:39] That's how they design it.

Anna: [00:17:41] Yes, exactly.  But I think that for me, and I think, I also stayed away a bit from power or thinking about it, because I'm curious how you feel about this in the spiritual and sort of like healing space. It's like take back your personal power.

Nina: [00:18:00] Can we talk about anything other than the spiritual?

Anna: [00:18:05] It grossed me out. A lot of the spiritual community talks about power, it made me uncomfortable.

Nina: [00:18:12] Also a lot of those people are like closet abusive. There we go back to my suspicion, but you know, I'm pretty intuitive. So I know when people are creepy and listen to that stuff.

Anna: [00:18:25] We know when you're bad.

Nina: [00:18:26] We know when you're bad. I think that is such a great point and also so frustrating and sad, that a lot of people miss, and I mean, I don't think we can really miss what's meant for us, whatever it is. But I think a lot of people get sidetracked or confused about what personal power means. And a lot of it stems from the fact that when they go into the rooms where these conversations are being had, there are by people who are power hungry, they're just indifferent garb.

Anna: [00:19:02] Absolutely. Do you think that personal power can come from something outside of yourself?

Nina: [00:19:08] Oh my god I love that question.

Anna: [00:19:11] A little piece of personal power?

Nina: [00:19:14] Yes, because when you were talking, I was thinking, okay, when do I feel it? You know, I feel it when I get that rush of teaching a room full of people of very close-to-my-heart movement class. And I can feel the energy, and I can feel people releasing things, and feeling safe and held in the room, and kind of this oneness that really, I do believe in. But that's outside of myself, but it comes from within, right?  It comes from me aligning with something that I really believe in and being fully who I am in that moment. And not caring if Sarah doesn't like my yoga class, maybe she does, maybe she doesn't, but I'm going to teach it the way I'm going to teach it because movement, I don't really have to say yoga, even though I was trained in yoga because I'm a white girl.

But that feeling of aligning and being where you were meant to be, it doesn't necessarily come from it's an external thing, right? That's showing it to you, but it's a mirror, so, yeah.

Anna: [00:20:26] That's what I was going to say, like, I don't know that to me, it's a shared experience. Like, I don't know that it is outside of you, you created it, you shared it with others. But like, I think something that like really frustrates me is how many things are like, packaged, marketed to help people, engage with their personal power, to help them, connect to it or feel it. And really they're just being exploited in my opinion.

Nina: [00:20:52] Yes, I agree. I agree.

Anna: [00:20:54] That bums me out. I don't know that it can come from that, but then on the flip side it's funny, Freha has just announced that she's doing another round of her writing was vulnerability in mine. And a friend of mine was like, is this class you were talking about? And I was like, yeah.  And I was giving her like, kind of the rundown of it. And I said her style is a little loosey/goosey, but if you think you're going to get like a syllabus, and I was like, she doesn't teach that way. I was like, she's incredibly intuitive, and it's an experience. I was like, "But you feel really safe and held”, it doesn't feel like she's unprepared or something like that.

But a lot of things that have, like, I think connected me to my personal power, like were not what I would have thought. For me, when I've really connected to it or felt it has been like something that I maybe like didn't feel good about, or like have felt shame around, or had a really potent memory around someone being like what, or whatever.

It was when that story got rewritten for me or got flipped or someone was like, "What are you talking about? That's so interesting. "

Nina: [00:22:04] Yes.

Anna: [00:22:05] So I think it's almost like this thing where I talk about this a lot with friends in regards to desire that we can't alone determine our fuckability, unfortunately.

Nina: [00:22:18] I just took a sip of water, Anna.

Anna: [00:22:21] I'm sorry. I'm sorry, I should've warned you, but how would I. It can't exist in a vacuum. I can think I'm the most fuckable person on the planet, but if no one's interested then am I? And I think that personal power is sort of interesting in that regard of I feel we have to get ourselves to like 80% there of like, "I believe in these things about myself. These are things that I think I really excel at, or I feel really good in and grounded in and feel powerful things that I share." And it can't live or die based on other people. But I do think that it has to be sort of received in some way for it to fully click for us.

Nina: [00:22:59] Yeah, and do you feel like that we're talking about ego?

Anna: [00:23:05] Mh-hmm.

Nina: [00:23:06] In that when you're feeling kind of like the moment you step over the line. I mean, we're always in ego and to some degree and we need to be in some ways but when we go over the line, maybe is when we decide to, your earlier point in that quote which was so amazing, I want you to send that to me. Thinking you're more intellectual, or as you say, fuckable than we actually are, what does that mean?

Well, it's like when things start to become a little bit fuzzy, there's like this illusion, you know, that we step into and this, "I'm going to get all that power." Like the kind of old guys, the old white guys who are like, it's not an illusion because they can fuck the 20-year-old chicks because they can buy them or whatever. But it's like, "Oh, I'm hot shit. " Because I have the money, because you've stepped into the danger zone, as far as I'm concerned. There's a humility that needs to, I believe, always be present with alongside of personal power that is your best friend.

Anna: [00:24:12] I wonder if what you're talking about too, is like power mixed with faults personal power.  Because I feel like when the ego's gotten involved in that regard and you are like, "I am the shit," because, I'm.

Nina: [00:24:29] You just wake up every morning and you're like, "I am fucking amazing."

Anna: [00:24:33] Imagine that you're the CEO of like a Fortune 500 company, is that even a term anymore?

Nina: [00:24:38] Imagine you're a fucking Elon Musk piece of shit.

Anna: [00:24:41] All you have to do is google the video of Elon Musk dancing at one of their launches, and then you'll be like, "No, that is not a cool dude." Google CEOs dancing at launches if you ever want to feel better about yourself, especially if you feel weird about the money you make in your life or something like that.

Nina: [00:25:01] I love that you just, that is such a valuable piece of advice right there, I'm not even kidding you. Who even thinks to do that? You are so weird and I love it. Who even thinks to google CEO's dancing at parties? Anna.

Anna: [00:25:18] Because I mean, think about it in our society. They're what we uphold as this picture of success. And I think you can't talk about power without success. And like, what is success?

Nina: [00:25:30] Not that.

Anna: [00:25:33] I can dance way better. I could handle a launch and I could dance well, so-

Nina: [00:25:35] I can get down as well.

Anna: [00:25:39] She's like, "FYI, I too can get down."

Nina: [00:25:42] I too can move the hips.

Anna: [00:25:45] I don't doubt it. I don't doubt it. I've also seen her rip her shirt off when she was real frustrated and getting hot and sweaty. And I mean, that felt like it was muscle memory from a dance floor. It didn't feel like it wasn't just getting dressed. It was like, eventually she needed to remove clothing to be freer.

But I think that is a lot in terms of people who I think did have a great idea or like struck on goal, but then it kind of went to shit.I mean, and I think this is a story we're hearing a lot with startups. People start this thing and then it doesn't seem, they make money. Like this story we then hear, it's like, they're just having tons of money pumped into them for this like illusion of success. And I feel like when the ego also gets way too activated, we then become in-service of the illusion and serving the illusion versus going like, "Oh, how do we actually get where we want to go? That's so much, it feels like it's playing out in our society now. Like white men, aren't the only voices who are being heard or the only people worth having.

Nina: [00:26:44] I mean, let's be honest, are they really even worth listening to, like a sliver of the time?

Anna: [00:26:49] I mean, yes.

Nina: [00:26:52] Sometimes? Let's give it sometimes.

Anna: [00:26:54] Sometimes.

Nina: [00:26:55] Well, they've had their turn.

Anna: [00:26:56] They've had their turn.

Nina: [00:26:57] I'm so fucking over it.

Anna: [00:27:00] They've had their turn and they're being the biggest babies about losing their turn.

Nina: [00:27:06] And also terrorists.

Anna: [00:27:08] Well, there's that too.

But I think that a lot of people are like, it's not that you have the best track record, but it's like, you've just always been the one able to even have a shot. And something I think that helped me really connect to my own Interpersonal power? trademark pending.

Nina: [00:27:09] Is this a course that we're about to release?

Anna: [00:27:33] But I'd like what it said about it's primary aim is self-mastery, competence, vision, positive, personal human qualities and service. When I'm became less caught up in right or wrong in terms of like, what's the right, like, not in terms of like an angel on my shoulder and a devil on the other.

I mean, in terms of like, what's cool or what's this, when I sort of realized there is no right or wrong, there's just your truth. A big thing in tarot so if anyone who's learned tarot will understand like a big part of really mastering the cards is understanding that every card kind of has a positive, negative and a neutral.

So there is kind of no such thing as good and bad. There's cards that it's like, "Ooh, that's not going to feel very good. Like, Nina and I are literally got on our call initially chatting with each other. And I was telling her about a reading I had done for a friend for her newsletter was like it was the, 8 of swords/5 of swords and the moon, and she was like, "Oh, cool. Why not throw in the 10 of swords?" I was like, exactly of like, it's, it's tense energy, but it's not bad. I started to trust myself more and feel more aware of what my personal power was without having to be like aggressive. The less I worried about being right or wrong, and the less I worried about being misunderstood.

Nina: [00:28:56] I know this happens to you, I'm sure it does as a reader, when you pull a card upside down and people are like, what does that mean?

Anna: [00:29:07] Yes. Like I have clients literally every time and I'm like, "You know what it means, it doesn’t, we've been here before." But it's exactly this.

Nina: [00:29:25] Is that a bad? Is that bad? And we're not making fun of any of you, we're not fun of you. We're talking about the universal analogy or something of the experience.

Nina: [00:29:35] I have the same reaction when I pulled for myself, which I rarely do. But when I'm like, "Oh, it's upside down." Like immediately, my body's like, "Oh boy," and then I'm like, "Nina, you've been here before."

So no, it's just that what's been hammered into us is good and bad, right and wrong, black and white in terms of there is not a lot of gray area or neutral. And I struggle with neutral places in general. Because I'm very much a decisive person, but that also is not always helpful. And that's also me, sometimes being in my ego where I've decided like that person is a complete and utter waste of my time. Because they believe something that I am wholeheartedly against. And no, do I need to engage with that person on any deeply personal level? No, but I can't damn them to hell either. I mean, I could, but I wouldn't. But I wouldn't be walking the walk, I would be just as bad as the person on the other side. So I think that's another way our ego can take us a little bit astray. When, like you said, we're in service of the illusion of whatever it is rather than the truth or just the emotion.

We have so much trouble sitting in darkness, even if it's not sad, it's just like dark and quiet or just quiet-

Anna: [00:31:07] If somebody was asking me about like what my take and feelings were around jealousy.

Nina: [00:31:16] Oh hope you are not a jealous person, right?

Anna: [00:31:20] Not really. I joke about it. Like I joke about it but I think I can joke because I'm not. I generally take jealousy as information. I know it's never about the person and I'm like, "Mh-hmm, if I'm jealous of this, why?" It means I want it. So why do I want it? And am I doing anything to bring it to me?

Nina: [00:31:41] Were you ever jealous in relationships?

Anna: [00:31:43] No.

Nina: [00:31:44] Never.

Anna: [00:31:45] No. I'm really because I'm wired-

Nina: [00:31:52] That's cool.

Anna: [00:31:56] I become a little like, oh, you want to flirt with that person? Or you want to do that? I mean, a friend of mine had a great saying of like, "I don't care where he gets his appetite as long as he comes home for dinner." And I kind of feel the same way, like I don't give a shit. I don't know, I guess it depends on the person and essentially it's like, either I can trust you or I can't

Nina: [00:32:17] That's totally what I was going to say. When you're not really, at least for me when I wasn't actually feeling any sort of power internally. I, of course, my abandonment issues were like through the roof. I mean, some boyfriends absolutely were cheating on me, but some of them weren't. But even still like across the board, it's just said so much about where I was with myself and nothing about them. Even if they were fucking somebody else.

Anna: [00:32:45] I think there's so much chasing that I think that chasing obscured, how I felt, so maybe I was jealous, but I was so on my own shit that I didn't even feel it. But I'm not a jealous person, because I'm pretty good about things that will make me insane I keep out of my life because my brain is good in that regard.

Like Bridget, you know, who I do Dead Parent Club with her father passed away when she was three and she struggles a lot. And I've learned a lot listening to her and it's been interesting because I mean, not that I think I have any power from having a dead parent. But I think I maybe do think I do have power in a way of like surviving loss will give you some confidence. If you come out on the other side and you're like, "I'm intact." I think that that's kind of why I wasn't jealous. I was like, "I got over my dad dying, I'll get over you. If you're going to make this mistake, then so be it, I can't help you." I have a weird arrogance in a weird way.

Nina: [00:33:48] I don't think that's the arrogance, I mean-

Anna: [00:33:49] It's like a protective and probably bullshit, but how it manifested for me. That's how I would stay in relationships. So Bridget was talking, there is something she's really like working on right now. And I hope she doesn't mind me talking about this and I will talk to her about it in case we need to take it out of the pot. But anyway, she talks about like, she really struggles with this idea of this like alternate timeline out there like her dad wasn't supposed to die and he died at 37 with a three-year-old and a nine-month-old baby.

Nina: [00:34:13] 37? How Did he die?

Anna: [00:34:17] Cancer. And he was in an accident prior to being diagnosed, I want to say roughly about a year and there were spots on his lungs. And so she lives with this sort of thing of like, what if, what if, what if, what if, what if? And with my dad I've never done that. And it's not like, I think sometimes when you're talking about these things people can think you're being judgmental or superior. I mean no superiority in this. I didn't know I was wired weirdly. I didn't know I was different, you know what I mean? Like I've had cancer, I've had a parent die and I've never been like, what if that hadn't happened? Or like, why me? Like, that's just not where I go. I'm more like, let's deal with what is, let's be in reality, I think, because I know how far out I can go if I disassociate. I know I'm like, "Ooh, I don't know. I might not come back for a while."

So I think I'm really vigilant about like staying here. And so Bridget and I talk about this, because I'm like, "It's just so different from how I've coped." And I think sometimes it can be like, if you're not in your experience as well, and like I'm not faulting, Bridget, I think trying to recommend that and basically with someone you never knew, really, like she's very vague memory. I'm not judging her process. I'm more just sharing it as like... There's just so many facets to these things. But for me, what I think has helped me also connect to my own personal power has been like, when I'm really willing to be in something and be really present in it and then come out on the other side.

I mean, my therapist used to say to me all the time when I was like trying to do stuff and just really struggling and she was like, "Listen, self-esteem is built through successful, repeated action." There's a formula that is how we will rebuild it. So you just need to get through that work of building it, just keep doing it and it will get easier and then you will feel better. And I was like, "Okay, if you want to say so."

Nina: [00:36:19] I want to talk more about that because that's the expert stuff. That's what that triggers for me. Like the need for a lot of, or the sale right now, the commercialization, and fucking all of this pushing and selling expert overnight, blah, blah, blah, yada, yada, it's been like that for a long time, but definitely right now, so unethical in my opinion, but also speaks volumes of the fact that we are uncomfortable with the process of getting up and doing it, and doing it again, and doing it again, and doing it again, and doing it again, and that repetition and that dedication and that discipline creates, and cultivates this space of that is personal power. You don't just buy it online.

Anna: [00:37:08] Yeah, I wish it could. I get it. There's definitely times I would have.

Nina: [00:37:13] I remember teaching my first class and then teaching a year later to this guy, and I think I've said this before, but it sticks out for me so much. I was so embarrassed for a second until I realized it was a compliment. But he was like, "Wow, you're in a year, your teaching has just drastically changed." And I was like, "Oh my god, he hated my first retreat." That's not what he was saying. He was saying like, I see the hard work you've been putting in.

Anna: [00:37:38] Yeah, something that helps me. It never fails that like things I hate eventually would provide me with some medicine except for penicillin, because I am definitely allergic. Even though doctors, all the time when I'm sick, are like, "Have you tested if you're still allergic recently?" And I'm like, "No, and we're not going to now, so you're going to give me something else."

So thinking of it as honing my craft. And I think so much like between capitalism, social media, the rise of like hashtag girl-boss, all this stuff we've gotten really confused on, like, what is it realistic timeline to mastery. And if you're really committed to something it's a really long timeline. If you really want to be a good tarot reader, and I had this realization recently, I mean, I was definitely one of those people, I mean, like my path was very weird in tarot of just like, I felt a bit like someone who woke up from a coma and didn't realize they spoke a language. Like it was bizarre how quickly I took to it.

But when I became a really good reader was when I had experience. And when I had read for thousands of people, it was like, I really not only know the meaning of this card, but I know how it expresses. I know how it plays out in people's lives. And almost like a tarot scientist. I've had a million experiments. I know how many people this has played out for. So it's like I had a different kind of like confidence and felt a different like power in what I was saying than I had previously.

And I know that feeling you're talking about so much when someone was like, oh yeah, I took your first workshop, I'm like, "Whoa." And you're like, "Excuse me?" I mean, some of my friends were some of the first people I read for, and now they're like, "Holy shit like it's just crazy?"

For me, I've also gotten so much pleasure out of honing my craft. That when I got over the fact that I wasn't good at it, but wanted to be so badly and then just like, got to fucking work. The reward gave me I mean, yeah. I make a living doing tarot like obviously it's financially rewarded me. But what it's given me personally completely changed my life, but I had to be willing to do it. And humble myself and go, "I don't know what this means?"

Nina: [00:39:54] And I think a good offering would be that if you don't really feel it connected to it or hopeful about it in some way. Whether it's a relationship or a career, whatever, is it in relationship with your personal power at the moment, is it might not be and that's okay too. That's part of being able to tap in and say, you know what? Like this is cool, and I want to read a book about it, but maybe I don't necessarily want to devote my life to it or them. I want to have sex with this person maybe, but I don't want him to be my boyfriend. I mean,

Anna: [00:40:38] That's someone who is highly fuckable.

Nina: [00:40:40] Oh my god, I really wish so many times. I mean, I didn't get in relationships with many people, but I really wish I could have been like, "Yeah, no, he's just the guy you have sex with a couple of times, like that is it. But I just couldn't say it was just like, "No, he will be my boyfriend." But it just, it requires this respect between you and you, right? And deep listening, deep, deep, deep, deep listening.

Anna: [00:41:10] And I think one of my favorite cards in the tarot deck is strength. And I wouldn't say it's an easy energy, it's a tricky energy, but I think it's one of the most rewarding. And a big thing about strength is harnessing and figuring out how to have mastery over our more like, kind of animalistic tendencies. So that's lust, rage, it's essentially like the seven deadly sins in a way. So it's like, how do you have that mastery? And that's an incredibly personal answer. So if you are looking at other people and being like, "Oh, I perceive them as so powerful or they're really in their personal power." They may not have that answer for you because what they needed to master could be completely different than what you need to master.

So I really would focus on that word of like, what would feel like self-mastery to you? And that's not because like there's anything wrong with you, or you need to change, or you're flawed, which I think is another thing about the whole wellness thing. I mean, in terms of like, what do you think if you had a little bit more of a handle on could get you closer to the things you desire? That to me is where I felt the most results and I think has netted out in me feeling more personally powerful.

Nina: [00:42:25] Yeah. I think I'm going to choose the tarot card too. I've already said that one. So I'm going to choose a different one. Mine's going to be the devil.

Anna: [00:42:33] "Oh, Al Diablo."  Anyway, that's a good choice.

Nina: [00:42:36] And the word addiction scared me for a long time, and that really sticks out for me, even though it's not just what it's about, but yeah, human too.

Anna: [00:42:45] It's a top one too, it's the top line of it.

Nina: [00:42:48] And we all have addictions and we all have things that pull us away from the deepest part of ourselves, right? And when I say that, I don't mean that I think people get confused when we use language, like come home to yourself and that can be a little frightening for people who have never been, who've never felt home in themselves.

Anna: [00:43:12] And also if you're like, what the fuck does that mean... it sounds like open the up garage. I understand. I get that-

Nina: [00:43:19] Come home bitch.

Anna: [00:43:21] Come home bitch, I'm here, open up the door.

Nina: [00:43:22] And I actually thank you for saying that, because I don't speak in like fluffy fluff obviously. But whenever I say something like that, it's because I have felt it deep in my bones, right? And that is the difference, because just speaking out of your ass and unicorn language doesn't mean anything. It's just is words said.

Anna: [00:43:43] The difference is you're sincere, and you're saying it with, I think in awareness of the work that it takes. And the difference-

Nina: [00:43:49] Which is why I'm only saying one phrase instead of like 27 of them is like when you come home to yourself and then you're like-

(Crosstalk) and then the universe and the kundalini. Anna, I feel-

Anna: [00:44:01] And we can always still-

Nina: [00:44:03] And breathe into your toes, but then up to nose-

Anna: [00:44:11] There's just so much to do.

Nina: [00:44:13] Exactly.

Anna: [00:44:13] Back of your heart and back up front, it's a lot. So when I just like to stick to one thing. When I'm saying, so the devil has shown me it's okay that you are addicted to certain things, because I think coming from a family with actual addiction, right? Like it was something that people understand as addiction. I'm like, I'm not, I don't have an addictive personality, I can quit things easily and blah, blah, blah. But that doesn't mean that I don't have that pull that just muddier, darker, and I don't mean bad, I just mean like-

Nina: [00:44:50] We all have things that have power over us.

Anna: [00:44:53] Exactly. And it reminds me of the it's a bit sexual the card, right? And so, people get freaked out by that too, I think. And I'm like, "This doesn't mean you're into bondage, it just means that-"

Nina: [00:45:05] I'm like, listen, if you go into devil energy, knowing what you're going into, you can have a real good time. And even when you're testing some boundaries and figuring out, maybe you don't want to be monogamous, you know what I mean? Like there are positives to it, but I agree that the devil is visceral.

Anna: [00:45:20] Yes.

Nina: [00:45:21] You're in it energy. And that's when I think. We can really find ourselves confronted, but also transformed, truly?

Anna: [00:45:35] Yeah, it is because, I mean, what I always like about El Diablo is that it's the places that we feel powerless. And if we look at the part we play in it, we free ourselves. And you don't have to have all your answers and you don't have to do all your liberation. But I think it's like, if you start noticing, what sort of pings in your inner core, what feels like medicine to you? What feels like liberation to you? What feels like power to you? That's the place to start, like you're on the case, that's it like, it doesn't need to be sexier than that, or more packaged than that. That's it, it's awareness and going kind of, "Okay, now what do I do with this information?" If I look at this thing and it's like, "It feels like it has a little bit of a hold on my life that I don't want to." Like, what do you do about it? And even sometimes the work is step one is just looking at it. that and going like, "Oh, okay."

Nina: [00:46:24] I think that's a beautiful place to leave them.

Anna: [00:46:30] Thank you, Nina.

Nina: [00:46:26] I don't have anything else to add, I thought that was gorgeous.

Anna: [00:46:29] Thank you. The devil out.

Anna: [00:46:32] The devil out. Devil out.

It's still so weird to me that I really feel the sense of people are listening to us.

Nina: [00:46:40] I do too. I feel you guys with us. It's because we're deeply spiritual.

Anna: [00:46:46] I feel weird, like not acknowledging y'all.

Nina: [00:46:48] We're like "Sarah. See you later. Ken, thanks for coming."

Anna: [00:46:54] It's so true, but if you-

Nina: [00:46:55] Barb, Barb  good-old Barb. Thank you guys for being here, thank you.

Anna: [00:47:03] Thank you,

Nina: [00:47:05] We'll see you next time. We'll talk to you next time. We'll just talk.

Anna: [00:47:07] We'll talk to you and we'll see you in our minds.

Nina: [00:47:15] That's all for today's episode.

Anna: [00:47:17] If there's a topic you want us to discuss, please submit it at the soulunity.com/howtobehuman.

Nina: [00:47:23] If you want to connect with other thoughtful humans, please join us at the Soul Unity. Listeners get two weeks free by going to our website and visiting our podcast page.

Anna: [00:47:31] Thanks for listening. And remember we're guides, not gurus.

End.