Vikram Rajan: I think that's the reason why we have to create systems
for anything, especially the things that don't come naturally to us and
the things that we don't really want to do, but we know we should be doing.
And I think content creation, writing articles, recording videos
for most of us who don't really enjoy doing it intrinsicly and what
we notice the right thing to do.
And like fitness, nothing bad happens if you don't go to the gym today or even
this week, or maybe even this month.
But if that becomes the bad habit of not going to the gym or not
creating the content over a period of time, bad things results.
Conversely, the good habits lead to good results.
David Shriner-Cahn: Welcome to Smashing the Plateau.
We help consultants, coaches, entrepreneurs, and small business
owners build their business after a long career, as an employed professional.
We believe you should be able to do what you love and get paid
what you're worth, consistently.
I'm your host, David Shriner-Cahn.
Today, on Smashing the Plateau, I'm speaking with the co-founder
of Videosocials, Vikram Rajan.
In today's episode, you will learn how you can use an easy system
to create video content that can increase your word of mouth referrals.
Stay with us to hear all the details.
Do you struggle to take consistent action on things like
creating consistent content?
How do you feel about your business building progress?
Would you like to be part of a structured, supportive process to help you implement
ideas that you know will help you move the needle toward your goals?
As a member of the Smashing the Plateau Community you'll have access
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where inclusive, direct, active and empowering conversations are welcome.
Inside the Smashing the Plateau Community, you'll find a range of
tools and resources to support you as an entrepreneur, access to experts
and answers to your burning questions.
If you're committed to getting your consulting, coaching or small business
to grow on your own terms so that you can deliver great results to your ideal
clients while supporting the lifestyle you want, and you don't want to do
it alone, apply to become a member of the Smashing the Plateau Community.
Learn more at smashingtheplateau.com.
Now let's welcome Vikram Rajan.
Vikram is the co-founder of Videosocials, a video blogging system for lawyers,
accountants, consultants, and coaches.
He's also the founder of its VIP service video interview podcast management
for those who want to just show up at showtime and have all the time
consuming, annoying stuff done for them.
Vikram, welcome to the show.
Vikram Rajan: David, thank you for having me on
David Shriner-Cahn: My pleasure.
Tell me a little bit about your career and what led you to start Videosocials.
Vikram Rajan: It was just a series of, natural events, so to speak, of business.
I started off as a marketing consultant, one on one, after working alongside
my father, who is a management consultant, and I kinda learned the
ropes of consulting from him, but I wanted to focus more on marketing.
And so I basically turned to his referral relationships who were
mainly lawyers and accountants.
And since, they had essentially seen me grow up with my father.
A few of them trusted in me when I was a very young adult, to
become my first set of clients.
And I stuck with the world of lawyers, accountants, and consultants ever since.
And very quickly realized that as a one on one marketing consultant, there
was very little leverage of my time.
And so as I got busy, I needed to bring on someone else, who is my
current business partner, Mark Bullock.
So he and I, joined forces and we created a great partnership.
I essentially filled up his book of business and then we had to of scratch
our heads, what's next, as he was busy.
And so we created a service called phone blogger wherein we interview our clients
over the phone and turn what they say into optimized articles, written articles
for their blogs, their email newsletters, their social media, and, literally just
starting another phone blogger client.
this Wednesday spoke to her this morning.
She's, uh, an IP attorney here in the New York city area.
So that's growing and we have staff, that essentially handles
our phone blogger clients.
But as the world of video started taking over the internet, we
had to scratch our heads again.
this was before COVID.
So 2017 I wanna say is when Facebook, announced that they were changing
their algorithm to prioritize video in their, social media feed.
And then the following year 2018, that's when LinkedIn followed suit and
we're much more of a LinkedIn crowd.
And so when LinkedIn started prioritizing video, that's when we knew we needed
to get serious to help our clients, with the world of video blogging.
And they basically did not want to be on video.
this was before COVID.
So the concept of them being in front of a webcam all day, or at all was
completely foreign and uncomfortable.
So we needed to find a way much like phone blogger is a convenient way to
essentially author it in articles.
We need to find a convenient way, if not a fun way to bring our
kind of clients onto video and into the world of video blogging.
We said, what if we did like a Toastmasters type group or
mastermind a networking group type style and did it on zoom.
And again, this was before COVID, BC.
So people didn't really know what zoom was.
And we said, click this link and you'll join everyone.
And now of course we're all familiar with the concept.
And so we treated it like a networking group, except that instead of an elevator
pitch per se, or what you do for a living, people went around and these
were our initial phone blogger clients.
So they knew the, they understood the concept of talking about an article for a
couple of minutes, and we said, great, but just make sure you stare into that webcam.
So you're making eye contact.
And then after they record their two to three minute video blog, which we recorded
for them, of course, they would then get feedback from one of their peers of what
they said, what they could have said differently or say it in a different way.
And then of course, who do I know that it can share your video with would come.
And so that natural sharing came, to pass where turned into more of a community
than even a service, which of course a service is there to part one of video
socials or our video blogging clubs.
And then we've realized that we need to help our clients get these videos posted
and optimized with captions and, headline, end screen with your attorney advertising
disclaimers and all that stuff.
And so we hired programmers to create custom software.
And so here, long story, to a short question here we are with Videosocials
now with, video blogging clubs and our brander app that essentially
automatically posts, videos, onto our clients' own Facebook and LinkedIn
and YouTube and WordPress website, so it's video blogging together on.
David Shriner-Cahn: Vikram, what did you learn about marketing to a specific niche?
Cause it sounds like you were doing that from the beginning.
Yeah.
And it's something that many solo or very small businesses really struggle with.
I'm really curious to hear how you approach marketing to a specific niche.
Vikram Rajan: I love it.
I think it makes marketing.
And traction that much more easy, especially if you work with the type
of clients that talk to each other and want to share resources as attorneys
do, attorneys are very specialized.
They actually can't even use that word, but they nonetheless are
specialized like doctors where they are constantly referring each other.
So they are their best referral relationships.
So they're constantly networking and sharing resources and
we go along for the ride.
So as we do a good job for our clients, they become our raving fans and they
themselves are part of a community professional associations, literally.
And so you can't be too niched because even within the world of lawyers,
there are specializations and they have their own special bar associations,
et cetera, not advocating necessarily people focus only on the legal niche,
but any kind of niche market, I think it makes marketing a word of mouth
that much more, faster and easier.
David Shriner-Cahn: How does it make it easier to identify a particular pain point
that where you're gonna create a solution?
Vikram Rajan: There's a natural market research aspect where, the easiest to find
out the pain point is to really ask your prospective clients or ask your clients.
But there is some to some.
You have to skate to where the puck is and you have to somewhat predict,
what their pain point will be.
It, it's the understanding that, horse and bug you to a car that no one
would've really asked for a horseless wagon, per se, they just said they
wanted more horses on their wagon.
and to some degree we still use horsepower for that reason.
And likewise, I think there's that famous anecdote Steve Jobs talking about the
iPod in that, people just wanted more and more songs on their Sony Walkman.
And so he had to figure out a way to help people understand that they
just don't want a bigger Walkman.
They just wanted a, an easier way of storying, more and more songs.
And here we have the iPod and all this evolutions.
So we have to predict, which is what Videosocials is kind of predicting,
knowing that our clients didn't wanna be on video, but we knew
it was the right thing for them.
And it's a good thing that we started in 2019, cuz we rode the wave one good thing.
At least that came from COVID was people knew that they needed to be
on video and we grew because of that.
So it's easier to understand and study your clients either from first
market research, first person market research with them telling you.
Or seeing, reading the tea leaves, so to speak.
And it's seeing what's the patterns.
If I think if our clients were in completely different industries, it's
harder to notice those patterns, our clients, there are not only attorneys.
We work with consultants and accountants and financial advisors, but they're
all very similar in the sense of professional services and subject matter
experts, et cetera, as opposed to.
Working with HVAC or retail and restaurants.
And then also lawyers.
I know some agencies do that.
I just don't know how they're able to really find the patterns in them.
I think actually that's really brilliant that by focusing on a
particular niche, it makes it much easier for you to find the patterns.
I think so.
It, it's the efficient way out of it.
David Shriner-Cahn: Let's talk a little bit about your target
market and their pain points.
When you're selling your expertise, why is content creation an
important marketing activity?
Vikram Rajan: I think historically it's not necessarily the content
marketing per se that they want.
Again, it goes to another kind of cliche that nobody buys the drill.
They buy the whole.
And in that concept, content marketing is a means to an end.
For them they recognize that word of mouth referrals is not literally the end.
I think the end point is of course client acquisition, but at least when
they think of marketing, they would even sometimes, say, and to this day, they'll
say, oh, I don't do any marketing.
I only, I, get everything through word of mouth referrals.
And, I don't wanna necessarily correct the prospect, but getting
word of mouth referrals is marketing.
Like how do you, so I'll ask, how do you get word about referrals?
And then they'll answer and they'll give you basically all their marketing plans.
And in that sense, content helps our clients get shared more effectively and
more easily, more efficiently, really through social media, but through their
website, through email and even per on person to person, face to face content
enables a conversation and referrals.
And so for us, content marketing can be used in a lot of
different ways as we do it.
So one aspect of content marketing is search engine optimization,
SEO getting high up on Google and inevitably our clients benefit from
the SEO benefits of content marketing.
But our focus is really on the word of mouth referrals, because if they, our
kind of clients, they're boutique firms, they're not getting their clients from the
proverbial yellow pages, either literally yellow pages or figuratively from Google's
version of the modern yellow pages.
But rather they're getting it from word of mouth.
usually there's always those kind of legacy and legendary stories of Hey,
yeah, I got a client from Google and that's cool, but by and large, they're
getting it from, let's say other attorneys or their past clients or even current
clients and content essentially greases the wheels, greases the gears of work.
David Shriner-Cahn: Yeah.
So how does content grease the wheels?
Vikram Rajan: I think by it gives other people a reason to talk about you and
a reason to share you with others.
it, there's no reason for me to suddenly start talking about my IP
attorney or start talking about the IP attorney that I know, especially
to a population that unless you ask me, Hey, do you know an IP attorney?
Okay.
That makes sense.
I'll bring it up.
that's a kind of a reactive referral, know, Dr.
Ivan Meister who started that very large networking group called BNI
has a concept of reactive referrals.
That kind of response versus proactive referrals, bringing things up, but then
there's even the pre-active concept.
The word pre-active is a word of bringing it up to an audience predictably saying,
most likely these people will want it.
And social media sharing is that way where you're, sharing someone because you think
someone else will find the same insight that you got from that person who wrote
the article or recorded the video blog.
So to answer your point, it basically enables me to
bring you up through content.
When otherwise ordinarily I may a have forgotten about you out of sight,
out of mind, or if I did see you or saw your name only, there's no reason
for me to now bring you up to others.
Or even for me to think about how I can utilize your service for myself.
But when you've given me a nugget of knowledge, it's an aha moment.
It's huh?
I never thought about it.
That.
And so for me, it could be a, I could be a prospect or I could be a
referral source and share someone else.
So conversely, that's really what you're doing when you're
sharing content with others.
You're basically giving them the easy ability to share you with others.
David Shriner-Cahn: And I love the way you have broken it down into reactive
marketing, proactive marketing, and pre-active marketing, right?
Yeah.
Why is it important to have a system for creating content if you're
focusing on pre-active marketing?
Vikram Rajan: Yeah, I think, ultimately a system is a inanimate way of talking
about habits and for us, a personal system hopefully becomes a habit.
And the beginning before it becomes a, an alpha rhythm habit where we do
things, unconsciously without thinking where it's just a part of our rhythm.
I think about fitness.
for some people they grew up playing sports.
They grew up watching sports for them to pick up a basketball
and play ball on the weekends.
That's normal, natural and habit to the point of a good addiction where if they
don't do it, they feel unfulfilled.
I am not that person.
For me, I've always had to force myself to get into the gym and create
all sorts of constructs from hiring a fitness trainer or creating some other
system, which basically means I need to force myself into the gym until I,
the endorphins and all the hormones.
And I'm not a biologist to understand all of the mechanics, but I do know that
I do feel good after going to the gym.
I have to remind myself that and that it, once it becomes a
habit, then the system takes over.
I think that's the reason why we have to create systems for anything, especially
the things that don't come naturally to us and the things that we don't really want
to do, but we know we should be doing.
And I think content creation, writing articles, recording videos for most
of us who don't really enjoy doing it intrinsically, but we know it's
the right thing to do and like fitness, nothing bad happens if you
don't go to the gym today or even this week, or maybe even this month.
But if that becomes the bad habit of not going to the gym or not
creating the content over a period of time, bad things results.
Conversely, the good habit is lead to good results.
And so we create a system for our clients where we know we wanna
keep it easy on their time and hopefully even fun so that they are,
productively addicted to the process.
So basically it becomes fun and done for them and that they look forward
to doing it as opposed to dreading or drudging, because ultimately.
That's when procrastination sets in and we find other things to do, which you
know, scrolling on social media is, can be easily distracted and we're trying to
get our clients to post on social media.
David Shriner-Cahn: I wanna go actually, and dig a little deeper into the idea of
creating a system for content creation.
Yeah.
There are a lot of different types of content, like you
specialize primarily in video.
There are a lot of different types of content and there are a lot of different
channels for producing and distributing content and there are a lot of different
ways of creating systems for a business.
How do you put all these pieces together and figure out what is the
ideal system, particularly when it comes to getting started with content.
Vikram Rajan: So we, first and foremost, we focus on video nowadays because
that's what the algorithms want.
Google owns YouTube.
So Google prioritizes video in what we in the marketing world have dubbed, position
zero, meaning over and above even the first position, cause YouTube clips are
above search engine results on a page.
So that's first of all, all right.
That's our goal is what we want to basically get our clients
quote, unquote, addicted to, but in a good way, productive.
And so our concept was how can we make it collaborative, cooperative
and, relationship focused since that's what they want also.
And so we knew when we wanted to create Videosocials, we had the phone
blogger system already in place.
We still do where it's a one-on-one telephone conversation.
And it's a rhythm where they know they're gonna have a phone call once a
week with their editor or every other week with their editor, depending on
how many articles they're producing.
So it's a systematic appointment driven concept, same thing.
We wanted something appointment driven.
Cause if it's in their calendar, if it's in our calendar, we're more apt to do it.
As opposed to I'll go to the gym whenever I feel like it
and never actually going in.
Cause someone like me never feels like it.
So if I have an appointment with a fitness trainer, even if I don't
really feel like it I'll do it.
And then hopefully the hormones will kick in and I'll like it and then
eventually I will like it if the trainer is good at the, his, or her job.
And so with us, the first beginning of the system is the appointment.
You gotta set aside time in your calendar.
It's the only way things get done.
So for us, it was like, what are we gonna do in that appointment?
We say 45 minutes.
I actually originally wanted half an hour that wanted it short and sweet.
We had to extend it to 45 minutes, but I said, look, we
can't have it more than an hour.
We could just sit in front of a computer or a webcam for more than an hour for me.
Just, just horrible sounding.
So now of course, ironically, a year later we spend all day on our
webcam, whether we wanted to or not, but nonetheless 45 minutes session,
we wanted to purposely keep it small about six, seven people at a time.
Cause we knew that was very interactive and just an right number
of people, that magic number seven.
Where it was just the right amount of interactivity to keep it fun and
interesting where people are learning from each other and sharing notes and
feedback on each other's video blogs.
But it wasn't so large that we ran out of time, but it wasn't so small
where it was a downer of energy.
And so we just arbitrarily picked kind of the number five to seven.
There was no real science other than Hey, let's try that.
And it made sense for it to be closer to seven and eight instead of five.
And so that was kinda makings of the system for us to know.
And then we had to systematically manage what happens in the 45 minutes of how
do we get people in the right mindset.
So we begin ceremoniously ritualistically with kinda, we essentially have someone
repeat the motto and the credo of what we're here to do so that we basically
are training our brain to go, all right, for these 45 minutes, we are in a room
to create content, to create video blogs.
And so we had to architect what a video blogging club.
Is and was because there's no other thing.
Now, luckily we were able to watch and learn from other modalities.
We were able to see what does Toastmasters do, which is essentially an in-person
club to PR to help with public speaking.
My business partner was president of one of the largest Toastmaster club out
in Hawaii, the largest one in Hawaii.
So we were able to kinda learn from their model.
We were able to learn from networking groups.
We were able to learn from mastermind coaching communities.
And so we didn't just make things up.
We synthesized to prior models, knowing that, all right, this is
how a meeting can probably go.
And, the first two, three months, it was a very much a learning and tweaking.
And then we realized we needed that part too.
As I mentioned, David, up of, we needed an automation system.
Cause it's like our clients were all dressed up with their videos, but
nowhere to go with them and for them, for us to help them post the videos,
one on one became really arduous.
We would do it for them.
That became a hamster wheel that we didn't enjoy so we had
to figure out an automated way.
So we had to learn from other systems, would be an easy way for us to say
it and then tweak it to something that is much more catering to our
type of clients and what they want, where it's fun, but not silly.
Cause these are serious topics.
These are serious attorneys dealing with serious issues.
But during the video itself, they're talking about very serious topics
of matrimonial or bankruptcy or real issues of IP issues of business law.
So these are not silly TikTok dance videos.
These are substantive video blogs that are really about their
expertise, but we clap for each other.
And that's one of those releases where it feels a little silly to do.
But we all get into the spirit of clapping for each other, because we are
encouraging each other to do something that ordinarily left to our own time
management we probably wouldn't do.
That goes back to the right.
David Shriner-Cahn: And I love there's some elements of your system that are
very different than many other systems for creating content on a consistent
repeated basis, which is that it's appointment driven, it's mindset driven.
And in particular, it's driven by having a curated peer group that
does learning and support together.
Vikram Rajan: Correct!
I think those are great great.
Sorry.
Thank you.
David Shriner-Cahn: Yeah.
So Vikram, what do you see coming up?
now that, we're a few years into Facebook and then LinkedIn.
Changing their algorithm to favor videos and we're two and a half years into our
change behavior as a result of COVID.
What do you see coming up in the world of content creation for particularly
for, experts and primarily solo experts?
So I think there is a long term on the horizon.
Which I won't spend a lot of time, but we know it's coming.
Vikram Rajan: We know the metaverse is going to take over.
We know virtual reality and augmented reality is going to be there, whether
we like Zuckerberg or not, or agree with Facebook or not politics aside
or personality aside, these guys are visionaries and we know inevitably
as hokey and weird as it sounds.
The metaverse of living in a virtual reality world.
It sounds as weird and foreign as being on zoom all day or
being on our cell phones all day.
Would've sounded to someone in the 1980s.
We would've been like, this is ridiculous.
So I'm not gonna carry a briefcase and hold this giant briefcase, to my head.
but here we are 20 years later where the devices have gone from a briefcase
down to literally in our pocket.
And so Oculus being one of those giant goggles sounds and
feels ridiculous at least to me.
But I think in, I think in coming years, it will turn into something
much more portable and usable.
And I think it's going there.
So that's 10 years, but closer to home, David, the reason we actually
ended up creating a VIP service was really because of our members.
We started noticing over the summer, last summer of 2021, a good percentage
of our members started talking about their interview show that they had
launched essentially unbeknownst to us.
Not that they have to disclose all their marketing to us, but they didn't ask us
permission, help, approval, idea, input.
They just did it.
They would basically have a zoom meeting with someone and they
would record it for YouTube.
And they'd basically be interviewing one of their potential clients or referral
relationships and it would become their web series or their video show.
They called a variety thing, or they would just call it a podcast, even if it's
not literally on the podcast platforms.
And they would basically record a video blog about their latest episode.
And that's how we started getting to know about their shows.
And this was, they had not like one or two.
This was literally like a good 10, 20% of our members.
And so it was very noticeable where it was time and time again, at
least one or two people per club.
We started noticing a pattern and then coincidentally, around the same time
our members started asking us for help.
How do they get that YouTube video show into apple podcasts?
Or how did they get their podcast into their email newsletter?
And we started realizing that a lot of our clients, our members wanted to create
this longer form content, but in the form of an interview, especially with
their referral relationships, because it was a form of extended networking.
And I think it was sign of the times that they were itching
for more deeper networking, but they couldn't do it one on one.
They couldn't do it face to face.
I should say, obviously it's one on one, much like what we're doing, David,
but they couldn't do it in person.
And I think the craving was there to the point where so many did it on their own
and that's just our members let alone this Renaissance of podcasting, in general.
And so as our members started asking us for help, we realized, I realized
that, my staff does everything for me and my show pretty much running
it where I show up at showtime, why don't we just do that for our members?
it was like a duh moment.
duh, why don't we just say, duh, why don't we just do it for our clients?
And that's when occurred to us where yes, we wanted video-centric it's Videosocials,
but also because the algorithms, including YouTube all want it to be video.
We want it to be an interview.
We don't want this just to be an extended blog or an extended video
because two or three minutes of a talking head is okay, but when you get
to something like a half an hour, like much like we are doing, it's auditorily
more interesting and visually more interesting when it's more than one voice.
We see that on TV even.
And that, of course we want the podcast platforms, cause that's a
whole new marketing channel that we weren't opening up for our clients.
And deliciously, that's spelled VIP Video Interview Podcast, and as a marketing guy
and as a poet, it's irresistible for me to find a good, TLA three letter acronym.
So VIP was born.
So Videosocials, VIP.
Nice alliteration.
We basically brought it up to our clients, kinda Hey, why don't we
just run this whole thing for you?
And you just show up at showtime.
And we did that in December of 21 by January, we're already
running two or three podcasts.
We're now up to almost 20 video interview podcast for our clients.
So I think to answer your, again, short question with a long answer.
I think as an interim, I think the long form content, but more video interview
podcast oriented, where you can listen to the audio as a podcast, but watch it, over
lunch for a video or listen to it on your commute is this new evolution, this new,
obviously in the extension for me, but it's something I've been doing for years.
Something you've been doing for years.
but something that I think has become very much part of the mainstream and
kind of that the very trendy area of content marketing, especially
because that collaborative aspect.
I'm looking forward to this episode, coming out.
I'm looking forward to sharing this episode on to my network.
Thank you again, David, for having me on it's a feather in my cap to
be honored, to be on your show.
And I think for every one of our clients, their guests, likewise see it as an
honor to be on our clients' shows.
And so their guests are excited to share their episode with their circle
of influence, which in turns markets my clients, markets, their shows,
but markets, their practice as well.
So I'm looking forward to sharing this episode to my circle for
them to get to know you David and get to know your community and
get to know the show at large.
And
David Shriner-Cahn: yeah, no, it's really brilliant.
Vikram we've covered a lot of territory today.
If someone wants to go deeper with anything that you've shared or access
any resources that you have, where would be the best place for them to go?
Vikram Rajan: The easiest place is my website.
If they go to Videosocials, plural, videosocials.net, and the bottom
right hand corner will be a chat box.
It's not a bot ,BOT, it's a box and that chat box goes straight to my cell phone.
So if they wanna type in a chat message, if I'm not available, of
course they could put their email in, but it goes through my cell phone and
we can basically text right there.
They can look me up on LinkedIn.
I'm pretty easily found on social media, as you can imagine.
But videosocials.net is easy.
You can come as a free guest to one, our video blogging clubs, you can get
to the VIP area videosocials.vip is specifically for video interview podcasts.
but they'll get to know me, get to know our video blogging clubs and
get to know our members that way.
David Shriner-Cahn: Sounds great.
Vikram I wanna thank you so much for taking the time to
join us today on Smashing the Plateau and share your insights.
My guest has been co-founder of Videosocial, Vikram Rajan.
Thank you again, Vikram for joining us.
Vikram Rajan: Thank you again, David.
David Shriner-Cahn: When you visit the Smashing the Plateau website, you'll
find a summary of each episode, along with the links we mentioned on the show.
On today's episode with Vikram Rajan, we learned how you can use an easy
system to create video content that can increase your word of mouth referrals.
Do you struggle to take action on things like creating consistent content?
Would you like to be part of a structured, supportive process to help you implement
ideas that you know will help you move the needle toward your goals.
As a member of the Smashing the Plateau Community, you'll have access
to a structured process for growth.
You'll also be a member of a community that's built to be a safe, caring place
where inclusive, direct, active and empowering conversations are welcome.
Inside the Smashing the Plateau Community, you'll find a range of
tools and resources to support you as an entrepreneur, access to experts
and answers to your burning questions.
If you are committed to getting your consulting, coaching, or small business
to grow on your own terms so that you can deliver great results to your ideal
clients while supporting the lifestyle you want, and you don't want to do
it alone, apply to become a member of the Smashing the Plateau Community.
Learn more at smashingtheplateau.com, where we have additional resources to help
consultants, coaches, and entrepreneurs build their business, after a long
career, as an employed professional.
We believe you should be able to do what you love and get paid,
what you're worth, consistently.
I'm David Shriner-Cahn.
Thank you for taking the time to listen to our show.
I'll see you on our next episode.