Richard MacKinnon - AUDIO for POCAST

[00:00:00] Ross: Hi there, and a very warm welcome to Season 5, Episode 27 of PeopleSoup. It's Ross McIntosh here.

[00:00:07] Richard: let's democratize this information.

[00:00:10] Richard: let's put it out there for free and let's give you resources that will allow you to break out of this if you wish, because, I think what we found during lockdown, for example. Disconnection from others and an increase in perceptions and reporting of loneliness. But the response in so many organizations was we need to have more social events.

[00:00:29] Audiogram Potential

[00:00:29] Richard: We need to have more online cocktail making or online pizza party. And it was this misunderstanding that it's not more exposure to people that combats loneliness. It's connection. with others and at a deeper level than just seeing 25 faces on the screen. Um, and so to me, ACT is a really good fit for that because ACT speaks to figuring out what's really important to you in life.

[00:00:53] Richard: it speaks to doing things that are uncomfortable, but really necessary reaching out to other people and, sidestepping. Not wrestling with the thoughts that your mind gives you, um, that maybe reiterate the story about your loneliness.

[00:01:09] Ross: Pea Soupers it's another special one this week. Over the summer, me and producer Emma experimented with a couple of live recordings, and our second courageous guest was Dr. Richard McKinnon, founder and managing director of Work Life Psych. And in this episode, we were particularly interested in finding out more about his research into loneliness at work, and the steps we can take as individuals and organisations to connect and thrive.

[00:01:35] Ross: you'll also hear how Richard first got into psychology, his route into organizational psychology and coaching, and the impact that actors had on his practice.

[00:01:44] Ross: He chats about how he began to explore and research the issue of loneliness at work, which resulted in a fruitful collaboration with Dr Sarah Wright in New Zealand. Richard highlights the prevalence of loneliness and the stigma attached to discussing it at work.

[00:01:59] Ross: The [00:02:00] output, which is all free, is called Connect and Thrive, and you'll find the links you need to Work Life Psych in the show notes.

[00:02:08] Ross: PeopleSoup is an award winning podcast where we share evidence based behavioural science in a way that's practical, accessible, and fun, to help you glow to work a bit more often.

[00:02:23] Ross: Let's just scoot over to the news desk, Because you might well have heard, I'll be running an Act in the Workplace Train the Trainer course in April and May next year, over four sessions, in partnership with Joe Oliver at Contextual Consulting. you'll find the links in the show notes and I'm excited to share the protocol I developed with Dr. Paul Flaxman at City, University of London, and also my experience of delivering it to hundreds of workplace participants across all sectors.

[00:02:50] Ross: peacekeepers, reviews are in for our last episode which was my chat with Dr. Sarah Swan about her book, Coping with Breast Cancer. It's well worth a listen if you haven't caught it yet. And don't just take my word for it, we have a review here from Sarah Cassidy, our previous guest. And Sarah said, a different Dr.

[00:03:08] Ross: Sarah being interviewed on a podcast. this is a wonderfully insightful, vulnerable and brave inside look at Dr. Sarah Swann's journey with breast cancer and how she even wrote a book while going through it all. Well worth a listen. Well thanks to Sarah and thanks to everybody who listened, shared and rated my chat with Sarah Swann, about her extraordinary book. Your support is what makes the PeopleSoup community so special. So please do keep listening and subscribing, sharing, and letting me know what you think.

[00:03:39] Ross: If you make some noise about the podcast and our guests, we'll reach more people with stuff that could be useful. For now, get a brew on and have a listen to my chat with Dr. Richard McKinnon, recorded before a live audience in July.

[00:03:56] SPOONS

[00:03:56] Ross: Richard, a very warm welcome to you.

[00:03:59] Richard: Thank you very [00:04:00] much. It's great to be here.

[00:04:01] Ross: And it's lovely to see you. I'm stoked, I think is the word I'd use to have you on the show. It feels like it's been a long time in coming, or at least a long time on my list. So I'm delighted to have got my act together to have you here with us. And we're going to be talking about a really important topic for us all to reflect on, which is loneliness at work.

[00:04:21] Ross: But before we dive into the topic, Richard, I'd love to find out a bit more about you. So as you know, PeopleSoup has a research department, So it says here, Richard has over 20 years of experience as a practitioner psychologist. He has worked on both sides of the fence as an internal professional and an external consultant.

[00:04:41] Ross: He's originally from Dublin, as is our producer Emma, by the way. He began his career as a consultant at the Royal Mail Group, spent time working with Psychometric Centre, then at City University, big up City University. Uh, followed by several years at Conexa, where he helped organizations interpret and act on employee opinion survey data.

[00:05:03] Ross: He then spent over six years with TalentQ, where he was head of learning and development solutions. where he grew their training and development offer from two online courses to a full suite of development programs and a coaching team. So this is a guy who has impact wherever he goes. He's since supported a whole host of organizations to identify and develop their key talent, including organizations as varied as financial services, local government, creative studios, professional services, national government, marketing, and PR technology, startups, and healthcare.

[00:05:36] Ross: I think that's the problem in every, every sector covered Richard, your reach is wide.

[00:05:43] Ross: And all of these projects were underpinned by a single principle, the application of psychological science at work. And now, he's the founder and managing director of Work Life Psych, a team of accredited and experienced psychologists who provide coaching, training, and development programs in [00:06:00] organizations worldwide.

[00:06:01] Ross: His interests include helping people to improve and maintain their well being at work, cultivate a sustainable approach to their productivity and develop their psychological flexibility so they can deal with life's setbacks and challenges more effectively. He's passionate about music and travel and is never happier than when people watching in Barcelona or enjoying Ramen in Tokyo.

[00:06:24] Ross: Richard co-hosts a fortnightly podcast called My Pocket Psych, which is well worth checking out. and creates videos for his own YouTube channel. How was that, Richard? Did we capture the best bits?

[00:06:36] Richard: You captured all the bits, so thank you

[00:06:38] Ross: for that. We're quite thorough here at People's Supertowers.

[00:06:44] Ross: But I wanted to... Get to know you a bit more, Richard. So let me take you back. What was young Richard like at school?

[00:06:52] Richard: young Richard went to a very rugby oriented school, but not a fan of the rugby, didn't play. So I found my niche in music. And so my passion growing up was getting involved in music activities at school.

[00:07:07] Richard: So I played piano, I did the musicals, I was in the orchestra, all that stuff. So if people were picking me out of a lineup now, uh, past pupils, that's, that's what they probably remember me for.

[00:07:18] Ross: I didn't know we had this, this common thread. It's great what you find out on a podcast, folks. It is. What was your instrument?

[00:07:26] Ross: You mentioned piano.

[00:07:28] Richard: No, that was it. Um, so when I was, at secondary school, I would use my summers and my weekends to play piano in restaurants and bars. For, well, for money, but also for fun. And that was my side hustle before we knew what a side hustle was. Um, so I really, really loved that aspect.

[00:07:47] Richard: I mean, I loved school, but everything's nicer in the rear view mirror, I suppose. Um, but I really enjoyed my time and that it was at secondary school that I sort of first got that. that interest in [00:08:00] psychology and sort of formative thoughts about maybe doing that for a job, but it was very cloudy, very ill formed, but it really started when I was about 16.

[00:08:09] Ross: Ah, so that's when you, you first thought, Oh, there's this, this thing called psychology.

[00:08:14] Richard: Yeah. I had a civics teacher who I was very impressed by. And I remember asking him one day, you know, you talk a lot about society. You talk about People and what people need. And, what's that called? What's the word that describes all of that?

[00:08:29] Richard: And, and he said, well, I think you'd be very interested in psychology. So I started at that point thinking, how do I do this? How do I learn about this? and then made it my priority. when I was doing my, my final school exams to get into university to study it, not really having more of a plan than that.

[00:08:47] Richard: That was giving me a four year breather in university. I don't have to make any decisions for the next four years. I just need to graduate. And then obviously, like a lot of psychology students learned a lot more about the reality, when, when actually studying it, but I wasn't deterred. I really, really enjoyed it.

[00:09:03] Ross: So where did you do that? Your, your first degree?

[00:09:07] Richard: I, I did my first degree in Trinity College, Dublin, which was, my first choice. Um, but I didn't get the points to get in, uh, to point point space system in Ireland. I didn't get the points and was very disappointed and went to UCD in Dublin for a week to do a sort of liberal arts degree.

[00:09:23] Richard: And then a week into that where I'd made my peace with it. I got a letter from the department of education saying they'd made a mistake. There was a marking error. And I fact did get. The points I needed. So I had a place at Trinity. So that was a really interesting experience of trying to build resilience to, you know, a setback, but more so the cognitive dissonance of no, no, this is fine.

[00:09:42] Richard: I always wanted to be here. And then suddenly, you know, bye guys, I'm off. I'm going to Trinity where I always wanted to go to.

[00:09:50] Ross: Blimey, what an emotional rollercoaster.

[00:09:53] Richard: It was a rollercoaster. It really, really was. But I had a really fun four years. It was an excellent department. I learned a huge [00:10:00] amount and really wanted to continue, which isn't the case for lots of people who study psychology.

[00:10:04] Richard: It's a great degree, but it's a very small minority of psych grads actually become psychologists. So I was really enthused when studying to to take it further.

[00:10:15] Ross: So was there a point in that four years when you thought, I'm really interested in the workplace and, and occupational psychology. When did that happen?

[00:10:24] Ross: Was there a module or was it just your general thinking evolving?

[00:10:28] Richard: It was, it was module based. I mean, I really liked the degree structure at that time that it was a lovely mix of very practically focused learning, um, and real world application alongside the theory. And the research and the statistics and so on.

[00:10:44] Richard: And we had some great modules about the application of, psychology in society and in the workplace. And it really got me thinking that this is something, I mean, I still say it now, work touches everyone, whether you're looking for a job, you have a job, you live with someone who works. It's such a, a connecting.

[00:11:02] Richard: Part of society, and, to be really blunt, the roots into clinical psychology then were, I think, even tougher than they are now in terms of what you needed to be able to sacrifice for several years before you could get on a training program and um, yeah. Thank you. I thought I could, I could do this sooner than that.

[00:11:19] Richard: I can dive in and start doing something, um, much sooner. So in my last year, I started to explore, okay, how can I, how can I do my postgrad training in this? And that's what brought me to the UK.

[00:11:30] Ross: Wow, so you did your post grad at Goldsmiths, if I remember.

[00:11:35] Richard: Yeah, absolutely. Um, and like a lot of people, I came over for one year and here I am 23 years later, still in London.

[00:11:42] Richard: That wasn't the plan, but you know, I accidentally put down roots, got a job, all the rest of it. So I've made my career

[00:11:48] Richard: here.

[00:11:49] Ross: And, and what was it that attracted you about Goldsmiths to do Occ Psych?

[00:11:53] Richard: it's again, it's probably an insight into the way my mind works. Um, I went for interviews, no, I applied, [00:12:00] sorry, for several master's programs and Goldsmith's was going to be the one that was the most challenging to get to, you know, on an everyday basis.

[00:12:10] Richard: but they were the only ones who demanded I come in for an interview. Everyone else just offered places and I thought, well, it must be something to this. I had a pretty tough interview. And that made me really want to go there because I thought this, this is a good course if they're actually being very selective.

[00:12:26] Richard: And it was a very probing interview and I came out thinking I really, really want to be here. Um, and I eventually got in.

[00:12:33] Ross: It's interesting that, isn't

[00:12:34] Ross: it? That if, if the difference between just getting an offer and then having an interview, you could be daunted by the interview, but it can help validate the course and find out more. And for me, I think an org sec department is missing a trick if they don't interview people.

[00:12:49] Ross: Because surely they could be applying some of the org psych principles or methodologies in that process to give people a taste of what to expect and perhaps the professionalism of the course.

[00:13:03] Richard: But, you know, cobbler's children and all that, um, psychology departments often don't apply what they know, um, in helpful ways, but I had a great experience there and, um, went straight into the world of work, when I finished the course and I know now looking back, that was really unusual and I was extremely lucky, but, um, that was great.

[00:13:23] Richard: So I was able to start my career as a psychologist.

[00:13:26] Pivotal Career Moments

[00:13:26] Ross: I outlined a little bit about your, your varied career, um, ending up where we are now at Work Life Psych, but I wonder if you could reflect for us on Some of the pivotal moments in your career, maybe a couple of those where you were at a turning point.

[00:13:41] Richard: There's one, um, so I started working at Royal Mail Group and internal consultancy there, which was the equivalent of, um, getting all of my Real world experience in just a few years, it was a phenomenal organization and I ended up doing almost everything that psychologists in the workplace [00:14:00] do at one point or another, but it knocked a few sharp edges off me in terms of realizing.

[00:14:06] Richard: Oh, I know far less than I thought I did as applies to lots of people when they start work. Um, I got to see the reality of work. I got to see a lot more about the nature of interpersonal relationships. Politics and power at work, like all organizations. And it just gave me a really different perspective on what different people need and want from work.

[00:14:29] Richard: Because, you know, I was working maybe on one day in a mail center. With postal workers, you know, running feedback sessions about something another day looking at how the interface of online system is being accepted by employees and how it could be improved. And then, you know, then doing research into bullying and harassment or something in the workplace,

[00:14:50] Human focus

[00:14:50] Richard: but that human focus and seeing where theory comes.

[00:14:54] Richard: Smashing into the real world and where it doesn't always hold up. and so that was where I think I learned a lot of the practicalities and to be a lot more, flexible, in my approach, um, helpfully, uh, flexible and pragmatic, you know, rather than enforcing psychology on people.

[00:15:12] Ross: And I think that's the mistake we can sometimes make that we have a theory or a perfectly formed intervention and we think this is it, I'm going to shoehorn this into an organization rather than thinking about what can we notice about them, what was their culture like, what would be a flexible and practical and pragmatic way to do this to get results.

[00:15:32] Anthropologist

[00:15:32] Richard: I have a phrase that I got from a manager back then that I still use now with coaches when, for example, they're starting a new job and it was their advice when I went into a mail center to imagine I was an anthropologist. You know, you've got two ears and one mouth, observe, listen, try and understand before you start telling or advising, because you, you're right.

[00:15:55] Richard: You go in with all this knowledge and you think I could improve things here, but actually there's a reason the way [00:16:00] things are. They are. And actually the more attention you pay to how people are getting along and what they're focused on, you get that more rounded picture. You don't know it all. You never can.

[00:16:11] Richard: And you're a visitor just like an anthropologist.

[00:16:14] Ross: My goodness, I love that. I can see some opportunity for work life psych merch here. Imagine you're an anthropologist on your t shirt. I think that would be quite fetching. And you're a visitor. That is, they are such wise words for psychologists going into organizations.

[00:16:32] Richard: Absolutely. A lot of that, you know, that was a really formative time for me and I took so much from that experience into subsequent roles, whether I was working in house or working as a consultant. And, and I think, you know, that perspective of, uh, you're here to learn as much as you are to impart.

[00:16:49] Richard: information, knowledge, expertise, however you want to put it. I think that's really, really important. And I think it's lacking from a lot of the support that organizations get from external

[00:16:59] Richard: providers.

[00:16:59] Ross: Yeah, absolutely. So often it's just off the shelf, shoehorn it in, job done, bye.

[00:17:07] Richard: Or even the, you need one of these because other people have them, you know, other organizations are doing this.

[00:17:12] Richard: So you must have this, you must have this, you must have this and an absence of need. Yeah.

[00:17:17] Ross: That drives me crackers with organizations. When they're looking at the competitors and see they've got this beautifully marketed. nonsensical intervention or tool

[00:17:27] Marker[00:17:27] Marker

[00:17:27] Ross: that is so slick and smooth, but not perhaps not evidence based

[00:17:31] Richard: more than perhaps I might suggest, but, but maybe that's a discussion for another, another episode.

[00:17:38] Richard: But, you know, I think that's, that's pretty safe.

[00:17:40] Different people want different things from work

[00:17:40] Richard: You know, the, the things that influenced me was noticing when theory doesn't work, seeing the practicalities of the workplace, seeing the diversity of the workplace, and really fundamentally that different people want very different things from work. We need to understand that not everyone has the same, uh, perspective on how work fits into their life [00:18:00] or how, or what a career is, or even that, that word success, you know, what does that mean?

[00:18:05] Richard: It's very, very varied. And we really need to acknowledge that we bring. One perspective, because we're humans too, but to be really open to there are many other ways of looking at the same context.

[00:18:18] Career Advice

[00:18:18] Ross: Beautiful. I love hearing you speak about this and the way you describe it. Thank you. is there anything you'd say to a person considering a career in occupational psychology or coaching?

[00:18:30] Richard: So I, I do a lot of sit downs with, people considering this, you know, the come into the office for a coffee and well, it starts with, can I have a job? And I said, I'm not employing, but I can, you know, talk to you about careers and so on. And I think the most important thing is to try and get as realistic a preview of what's involved as possible.

[00:18:48] Richard: Um, I've yet to meet someone in the world who has a really solid, accurate. view of what psychologists do day in and day out. And that's not problematic. Why would someone who's not a psychologist know this? But I think it's very easy to go into the profession with misplaced, uh, views of what it will actually be like.

[00:19:10] Richard: But then that's the sort of negative. The positive, I think, is to really continue and to place a lot of emphasis on your ongoing learning and development to science. Our understanding is evolving all the time. We need to keep up with that and not get stuck in ways of doing things from 10 or 20 or 30 years ago.

[00:19:31] When Richard Discovered ACT

[00:19:31] Ross: Absolutely. I couldn't agree more. And some of your work now is based upon psychological flexibility and acceptance and commitment therapy, which I know many of our, uh, people who've joined us will have heard of and be actually using. But when did you first discover ACT?

[00:19:46] Richard: I think, and it's hard to know for sure, but I think it was about 12 years ago.

[00:19:52] Richard: And I think it was in a very informal conversational way. And, uh, not long after that, when I did a little [00:20:00] bit of reading up on it, I sort of had a light bulb moment about it because for several reasons it was ticking boxes for me. Um, it's about, I think, for me, acts and the development of psychological flexibility speaks to something very fundamental about what it is to be human. You know, figuring out what's important to you, what really matters. doing the stuff that matters and is important, even though it's tricky, uh, or uncomfortable and really fundamentally understanding that, mind that you have. Isn't always your best friend, um, and navigating the world with a lot more, compassion for yourself.

[00:20:38] Richard: And, and for me, the fact that act has an incredible. research base, the evidence base, and it works and is applicable in so many contexts. That to me was that education and mental health and government and it's working in all these different places.

[00:20:56] Richard: Um, this seems to be something that is drawing a really helpful line between all of these different perspectives. And I had done a lot of training in cognitive behavioral coaching, and there was always an itch at the back of my mind saying there's something. Something about this. That's not quite, I won't say right, but it wasn't quite working.

[00:21:15] Richard: And, um, acts answered that completely, which was why are you trying to change something? You don't have control over in the first place. You're thinking instead of, you know, developing a new relationship with your mind and your accommodation for those thoughts. And that was what sealed it for me, that perspective on thinking. So I've been an advocate ever since

[00:21:34] Where Ross and Richard Met

[00:21:34] Ross: it's a really. compelling origin story. And couldn't agree more. Richard, when we were preparing for this, I put a question on the list that said, when did we first meet? And then we both went, well, when the heck did we first meet? We had, there was a conference in Dublin a couple of years ago when Richard it being his home city, he acted as a guide for a group of took us to all the [00:22:00] seediest horns.

[00:22:03] Ross: I jest, I jest. You took us to lovely places, but, um... We must have met before that.

[00:22:08] Richard: I think it's one of those things where you encounter professionals at different conferences here and there, but never for very long. And it sort of snowballed over time. I think in the deep recesses of my memory, I suppose there was one conversation where we both went, Oh, we should talk again.

[00:22:25] Richard: But Dublin was it for me. Um, realizing, okay, we, we, we have the same perspective on a lot of things, but it's not a complete overlap. This is really interesting. I wanted to continue the chat.

[00:22:36] Work Life Psych

[00:22:36] Ross: Yeah. Well, anyway, we'll continue that one another time, but, um, tell us about work life psych. Tell us, uh, uh, briefly the origins of that, why you established that.

[00:22:47] Richard: I had a very arbitrary goal, uh, to be working for myself by the time I was 40, which in itself is very random, but, uh, events overtook that, and the company I was working for got acquired by a very, very, very large organization, and I didn't fancy working there, um, I had to sell my shares in the business as part of the acquisition, and I thought I could do this now.

[00:23:10] Richard: I'm not yet 40, but I could do this now. And if I don't do it now, I might never do it. And the it was, I really want to take what I've been doing here and only this, this people development piece and take that forward. I'm not interested or passionate about all of the other stuff that occupational psychologists can do. It's wonderful, but it's not for me. I want to really help people have a better experience of the workplace. And, um, maybe that's through coaching, maybe that's through training and imparting skills. Maybe it's a development program, but that's what I want to do. And Make sure that's evidence based because then you can speak with confidence to that and have a good rationale for that. So that's what I've been doing since 2014.

[00:23:54] Ross: Wonderful and doing great work. So thank you for all that you do for organizations.[00:24:00]

[00:24:00] Richard: I really enjoy it. So that's, I wouldn't do what I do if I didn't enjoy it. Um, you know, there's parts to every job that aren't fun. That's absolutely part of, you know, work, but I, I try to focus on doing things I think are worthwhile.

[00:24:12] Richard: And. challenging and could be fun. Um, so I'm, I know I'm really lucky in that regard.

[00:24:19] Loneliness at Work

[00:24:19] Ross: Thank you. Now, Richard, I'm going to change tack and go onto our topic of loneliness at work. So when did you first decide to explore this?

[00:24:29] Richard: I mean, way back when I worked at Royal Mail, I was first exposed to the idea that people could feel disconnected, even though they were in the middle of a very interpersonally busy environment, like a mail center.

[00:24:41] Richard: Uh, and it really struck me as strange. How could you say you felt lonely when you're not by yourself? And it's a really common misunderstanding. Isolation is not the same as loneliness. And this disconnect, um, what was something that was sort of going around in my mind podcast, um,

[00:25:06] Richard: Dr. Antonia Dietman, and she did her PhD on the role of social chats in the workplace. And all of the positive impacts that a chat can have to someone's experience of work and also team functioning and all of that stuff. But she actually said to me that she uncovered a lot of literature about loneliness as part of that, you know, the, the opposite of those valuable conversations.

[00:25:29] Richard: And I'd asked her. As you do, could you recommend any reading for me? I really want to get my arms around what the evidence says. And, um, she recommended, uh, an academic in New Zealand, uh, Dr. Sarah Wright, and I got in touch with her and it's a shout out to anyone who's interested in learning about a topic, reach out to the academics.

[00:25:48] Richard: They are normally super happy to give you their work, um, because it's their passion. So she was really good to, um, share some papers and we continued our conversation. Thank And we eventually [00:26:00] got to the point where we said, should we do something with this? and what I want to do is distill the information, combine it with act principles and put it in front of people to say, you know, let's,

[00:26:12] We need to have more social events

[00:26:12] Richard: let's democratize this information.

[00:26:14] Richard: let's put it out there for free and let's give you resources that will allow you to break out of this if you wish, because, I think what we found during lockdown, for example. Disconnection from others and an increase in perceptions and reporting of loneliness. But the response in so many organizations was we need to have more social events.

[00:26:34] Audiogram Potential

[00:26:34] Richard: We need to have more online cocktail making or online pizza party. And it was this misunderstanding that it's not more exposure to people that combats loneliness. It's connection. with others and at a deeper level than just seeing 25 faces on the screen. Um, and so to me, ACT is a really good fit for that because ACT speaks to figuring out what's really important to you in life.

[00:26:57] Richard: it speaks to doing things that are uncomfortable, but really necessary reaching out to other people and, sidestepping. Not wrestling with the thoughts that your mind gives you, um, that maybe reiterate the story about your loneliness. You know, I'm an unlikable person. I don't have social skills.

[00:27:18] Richard: I'm not valued. Those kinds of thoughts are really uncomfortable and they could easily prevent you from reaching out. So for me, act was a really good way of getting that across to people, but also. As you'll know, it's very accessible, you know, using images and metaphors lands well with people. And so we created a guide, put it out there online.

[00:27:39] Richard: Sarah distributed it to several of the organizations she works with. We had a podcast episode about it, and I've been beating the drum about it since, to just remind people this is super important. It should be on the agenda, the well being agenda in organizations because of the impact that ongoing loneliness can have.

[00:27:59] Richard: And for me, [00:28:00] loneliness sits at that center point of the areas I'm interested in productivity, well being and interpersonal effectiveness. Loneliness hampers All three of those, and it's not just an unpleasant experience. That's one that we can demonstrate with the research really has a negative impact on us.

[00:28:20] Ross: Gosh, thank you for beginning to unpack it for us. I completely agree about an organizational response to recognizing loneliness can be, yeah, let's have a lunch and learn.

[00:28:32] Ross: Let's just have a social connection on Zoom where we, and, and they turned into things that people actually actively avoided.

[00:28:40] Richard: Absolutely, because not one, not everyone enjoys those things to this is your own time. Why, why are you, you know, why should you take part in a workplace event when it's your time, but also what organizations could do and what good leaders.

[00:28:57] Richard: do is role model, the kind of interactions that can support good quality connection relationships, pausing to have a chat, asking people how they are, um, role modeling their own interpersonal difficulties or challenges, you know, being open about. The difficulties may be in establishing new connections or, especially when people join a team or an organization, doubling down on ensuring they get support and connection with those around them.

[00:29:25] Ross: Yeah, that role modeling piece so important expressions of vulnerability and the challenges that we face can really open up people's eyes in terms of normalizing the experience. But if I may, can we just go back a bit and delve in a bit more to find out about loneliness at work, what you found during your, investigations and your, your work.

[00:29:47] Richard: I mean, I have to thank Sarah for this huge contribution she made. I mean, she's been doing the research in this and pulled together a really nice summary of it because we wanted to. Demystify it for the average [00:30:00] person and also illustrate that while there is a stigma attached to it, a very strong social stigma, it's incredibly common.

[00:30:10] Richard: It's incredibly common. And we did see it increase. during the pandemic period, we did, see that it impacts some people more than others surprisingly or not younger people were reporting higher amounts of loneliness. Um, people who lived by themselves, people who were out of work and those people who had a preexisting mental health condition.

[00:30:30] Richard: So it was impacting everyone, but to different, different degrees. and you know, the, the research has been pretty consistent over the decades, um, illustrating that it impacts lots of different things. For example, from a wellbeing perspective, it activates the stress response within us that can have over time a negative impact on our immune system.

[00:30:52] Richard: And, uh, researchers have demonstrated that chronic loneliness, is associated with a whole range of negative health outcomes. And The impact on your immune system is not the first thing you think of when you think of loneliness. You think of passing emotions. You think of isolation, maybe, you know, being a big, misunderstanding there.

[00:31:11] Richard: Uh, but it also impacts our work performance. and actually I'm going to refer to a couple of stats. Um, we gathered an advance of this from the, the campaign to end loneliness here in the UK. 48% of young people who experience loneliness say that it makes them less likely to want to progress in work because they associate progression with even more loneliness.

[00:31:31] Richard: the cost of this loneliness is being estimated at around 9, 900 pounds per person per year because of the impact on productivity, health and ongoing well being. And the higher level estimate is that it costs the UK billion pounds a year. So, even if you haven't got the view that, you know, loneliness in itself is a bad thing, you can put a pound sign or a dollar sign or a euro sign in front of this and say, it is having a terrible impact on [00:32:00] individuals, organizations, and society. So we really do need to do something about it.

[00:32:04] TABOO

[00:32:04] Ross: It's quite startling to hear those, figures, Richard, and it feels like it's. is still a taboo subject, which would you agree?

[00:32:12] Richard: Absolutely. It speaks to our humanity in the sense that if you do feel lonely, your self evaluation could turn to what have I done to deserve this exclusion from the group.

[00:32:24] Richard: And if I'm not in the group, there must be something wrong with me. But when someone tells you they're lonely, you might automatically assume what's wrong with them. That they're not in the group, right? At some level, we're evaluating each other. And if someone expresses that they're lonely, it might, it might cause, self doubt that you say, well, have I contributed to this?

[00:32:44] Richard: Is there something I'm doing? And it can be very, very uncomfortable. but this is why it's really useful to look at it through the lens of act, because that means doing uncomfortable things because they're worthwhile. Um, and acknowledging that the stories we tell ourselves about ourselves or about our situation aren't always rooted.

[00:33:05] Richard: In reality, or even any evidence, for example. And so we might miss out on the opportunities around us to connect with others, we might miss out on the feedback we're getting from others, because we're paying too much attention to this voice inside that says, you are a lonely person, rather than you're experiencing loneliness right now.

[00:33:24] Richard: And it doesn't always have to be that way.

[00:33:26] Connect and Thrive Campaign

[00:33:26] Ross: Really, really thought provoking and just hearing those words about, about stories so powerful. So tell us, tell us about your, Connect and Thrive campaign. I love the title, by the way, but tell us more about that.

[00:33:39] Richard: Well, actually, that's an interesting point, because Sarah and I only met once because Sarah's based in New Zealand. So we did 99% of this asynchronously, which is a really nice experience. But we met once when she was on a visit to Europe and she met me in London and we had a coffee and talked through this. And one of the things we both wanted to avoid was going out with loneliness as the [00:34:00] word.

[00:34:00] Richard: So actually we said, well, what are we trying to do? We're not, we're trying to help people make connections. That work for them and get the benefits from that. So that's where Connect and Thrive came from. Um, so what, what we worked on together was a guide to understanding loneliness and its impact and then taking positive steps to deal with that.

[00:34:22] Richard: And then together we gathered some digital resources. So I hosted this on my website and on this one page, uh, we've put together relevant podcast episodes. We've put together, um, access to national organizations. That like the campaign to end loneliness, and actually that's a call out to anyone who's watching or hearing this right now.

[00:34:42] Richard: If in your country, there is an organization, designed to deal with loneliness, get in touch because I'd like to add them. to that list because right now it's looking extremely Anglo. So I want it to be much more international and much more accessible to more people. Um, and then Sarah came on the podcast and we just talked it through like this to sort of get the rationale out there that it is a problem.

[00:35:06] Richard: It needn't be the problem. It is. In organizations, we have that workplace focus, which is different to the loneliness that comes from isolation. That could be because of age or where you're based. This was about the working population and to, to get that message in front of organizations and individual employees, that something can be done about this and it needn't be very complex and it needn't be expensive.

[00:35:32] Richard: It could start with something really, really small.

[00:35:36] Approach

[00:35:36] Ross: So what are the key steps to your approach, Richard, if you could, if it's possible to distill it down?

[00:35:43] Richard: Yeah, so for an individual, if someone was to read the guide, they'd realize it's not just me, which is a very important point. I'm not the only person who's experiencing this.

[00:35:52] Richard: And I wrote a little multi part case study that went through it, that it's fictional, that illustrates one person's experience of this [00:36:00] and the fictional stages this person goes through to illustrate, Oh, everything you try isn't going to work. There's no silver bullet here to deal with it all.

[00:36:10] Richard: Persistence is key, but also doing uncomfortable things in the hope that it's going to get you a good result. So we, we cover off why it's important to understand your values and what really matters to you and give some values clarification tools to people because they can act as the compass to help you understand the direction.

[00:36:28] Richard: of desire to travel. we teach some basic cognitive diffusion skills. In other words, learning to see what the thoughts actually are, not what they say they are, which is true. And, um, you know, you must follow them and the, importance of, uh, persisting with acceptance. Of the discomfort. It's part of doing meaningful things, and the more we try to sidestep it, it helps people understand why their responses to loneliness have potentially made it worse because they want to avoid situations where they're making themselves more vulnerable.

[00:37:01] Richard: And you can have this sense of, if I approach this new colleague and they don't agree. To have coffee with me, then that proves I'm an unlikable person. And so I don't even want to try, then I can avoid the discomfort. And so you end up in a cycle of avoiding potential discomfort rather than trying and getting the wins that come with reaching out to other people.

[00:37:24] Richard: and we also, wrote about the importance of having the conversation. opening up to others about it. and then starting with very small steps. It's not a one and done. It's not flicking a switch. It's persisting through a journey that's valued, but isn't going to be a straight line from A to B.

[00:37:43] Richard: So trying different ways to connect with people, reflecting on, The progress you're making being flexible about that. One of the examples I give is someone who's working remotely because a colleague says, I don't have time to have a virtual coffee with you. It's kind of crushing to them. But then the colleague comes back and [00:38:00] says, but another time would be great.

[00:38:01] Richard: You know, let's try and reschedule that because I would like to do this. Two. So very simple things that the individual can do. And we're hinting at what organizations can do as well, which is to facilitate, or at least not block people's opportunities to talk with each other. It's not a waste of time and resources.

[00:38:21] Richard: It contributes to people's wellbeing and effectiveness in the workplace.

[00:38:26] Ross: And I'd encourage everyone who's with us or listening to this to, to check out the resources from, from Richard and Sarah. It's incredibly generous. And where can they find these?

[00:38:37] Richard: So it's on, um, uh, my website at worklifepsych.

[00:38:41] Richard: com slash connect and thrive. And something that, I suggested to Sarah from the get go was, Can we not make this one of those, we've got this really nice resource, but you have to jump through several hoops to get it because we've all been there. You know, you need to sign up and now we're going to plague you forever with emails you don't want.

[00:38:58] Richard: So there's none of that. You just go to the website and it's all downloadable. And it's not just. us. So we want to put other resources on there. So if anyone who's listening to this has some interesting or quality resources around loneliness, I'll add the links to it there. I want this to be a resource for everyone.

[00:39:14] Ross: That would be amazing. So there's, a shout out to everyone. If you have other resources. I can think of some I've come across on ostracism at work, which, may be beyond the scope, but, but

[00:39:26] Richard: it's a big overlap there. And that's a very painful experience. And even perceived ostracism, you haven't been, you know, thrown out of the club, but you don't feel like you're a valued member.

[00:39:38] Richard: And again, it speaks to that core part of being humans that we want to be part of something.

[00:39:42]

[00:39:42] Advice to Leaders

[00:39:42] Ross: Richard, I've got a question. We've touched upon it already, but advice to leaders, because you mentioned that young people looking up the ladder might think I don't want to go any further because it gets lonelier. And my experience of working with lots of leaders is they do feel quite lonely. any [00:40:00] simple small steps or tips for them?

[00:40:02] Richard: So it's, it's a hackneyed phrase, but to, walk the talk, if you're encouraging people to reach out and talk about how they're doing, well, you need to do it too, because if it's not visible, then people won't think it's legit. It's not a good use of time. Um, it's in the same way that you'll have a poster or a mouse mat or a mug with the values written on them, but you need to live them.

[00:40:25] Richard: Otherwise they're not authentic. So for leaders to authentically do the things they want other people to do, schedule a coffee, have a chat. Um, if you're in a physical shared workspace to pause and ask people how they're doing to make time for those conversations, rather than giving off like radiation, the sense that you're too busy.

[00:40:44] Richard: You know, I don't have time for this, because if you're role modeling human connection, other people will see that's okay. Um, the other thing is not to work on assumptions that, it's, part of the role. that's something I've come across in my coaching work with leaders that, well, it's to be expected.

[00:40:59] Richard: It's one of the downsides of being a leader. And I disagree with that because you're still a human being. And surely, if you're the leader, you can shape things to work for you. It's not a rule that you must behave in this way. And I try and remind my clients that they have a lot more scope. to make changes than they might actually assume.

[00:41:18] Richard: But the bottom line is it starts with the leaders. It really, really does. And if they take brave steps, others will follow.

[00:41:25] Ross: Absolutely agree. And I think sometimes leaders don't realize that influence they have. As a social species, we learn most effectively by observing others. Absolutely. And there's more scrutiny on our leaders because of their position in the hierarchy.

[00:41:39] Ross: So it's, it's a great way to just really demonstrate how you'd like this workplace to be.

[00:41:45] Richard: I mentioned Antonia Dietman earlier. I mean, her PhD research demonstrated that you can train people. How to have social chats, you know, you can actually give people the skills so they can have more of these conversations [00:42:00] that matter.

[00:42:00] Richard: So, uh, you know, the, why there are barriers, um, they're not insurmountable to increase social connection and quality of relationships at work. If we can teach people to do that, we can teach them to do anything.

[00:42:11] Ross: Richard, it's so fascinating to hear you talk. I'm seeing your anthropological curiosity shining through and your drive to make a difference in the world of work, which I think is tremendous.

[00:42:23] Song Choice

[00:42:23] Ross: Now, Richard, you'll know being a PSuper that I've got a question I ask all my guests. And the question is, if you had a song that would announce your arrival in a room, real or virtual, over the next few weeks, not forever, what would that song be? And why do you choose it?

[00:42:37] Richard: I did know you were going to ask this, so I gave it some thought.

[00:42:40] Richard: And just like the shoes you wear or the car you drive, it probably says a lot about you. So, um, actually, given the couple of weeks we've just come through, I'm going to. Choose, uh, Rags to Riches by Tony Bennett because he sadly just passed away. And that was one of my favorite songs that he performed. I got to see him live in the Royal Albert Hall years ago and was blown away.

[00:43:01] Richard: So, yeah, that's what came to my mind when you asked that question.

[00:43:04] Ross: Beautiful. Thank you so much. And by the magic of editing, we'll play a bit of that on the podcast version of this. So thank you. Brilliant. But um, in the meantime, Richard, thank you so much for your generosity and your clarity in the way you present this to us. It's really, clear how much thought and dedication you've put into this important topic.

[00:43:26] Ross: So I'm really, really grateful. Thank you. any final words, Richard, for, for the, for the PSUPRs?

[00:43:35] Richard: The PSUPRs, you know, for everyone out there, I might suggest that they take a moment to think about the people they work with. And whom they might want to just reach out to, to see how they're doing, whether it's they're sitting next to them or they're on the other end of a team's call to just with no agenda, just to check in with someone and say, Hi, how are you doing?

[00:43:56] Ross: I think that's something we could all commit to do. [00:44:00] today. so thank you so much, Richard. Thank you for joining us on this experiment of a live podcast recording. Super grateful for you being courageous and joining us and being such a generous and insightful guest. Thank you everybody. And please keep listening to the podcast. Bye

[00:44:20] Richard: folks. That's it, Richard's episode in the bag. thanks so much to Richard for his research and generosity. The Connect and Thrive resources are so practical and useful, and of course, based in evidence. A big thanks to my producer Emma, we've got loads of ideas in the pipeline.

[00:44:43] Ross: and pea soupers. Emma is continuing her final year research in psychology at Dublin City University. exploring the relationship between interesting work and well being.

[00:44:53] Ross: It's an anonymous online survey which takes less than 15 minutes to complete. Emma would greatly appreciate your participation in this study as it could provide some interesting insights on how we can better boost employee well being in the workplace. You'll find a link to the survey in the show notes.

[00:45:09] Ross: and the study findings will be made fully accessible to you. Should you wish to find out more. If you like this episode of the podcast, please could you do three things. Number one, share it with one other person.

[00:45:21] Ross: Number two, subscribe and give us a five star review. Whatever platform you're on. And number three, share the heck out of it on the socials. This will all help us reach more people with stuff that could be useful. We love to hear from you and you can get in touch at peoplesoup.

[00:45:37] Ross: pod at gmail. com On X, formerly known as Twitter, we are at peoplesouppod. On Instagram we are at people. soup, on Facebook at peoplesouppod, and you can also drop us a review on a voice note on WhatsApp. All the details are in the show notes. Thanks to Andy Glenn for his spoon magic for his [00:46:00] vocals.

[00:46:00] Ross: Most of all, dear listener, thanks to you for listening. Look after yourselves, Peasoopers, and bye for now. to imagine I was an anthropologist. You know, you've got two ears and one mouth, observe, listen, try and understand before you start telling or advising,