[00:00:00] Trisha: Hi everyone, I'm Trisha Carter, Organisational Psychologist and Explorer of Cultural Intelligence. In today's episode, I'm inviting you to take a step back and listen to an earlier episode. I know in the last month or so we have a number of new followers, and I know many of you might not have heard some of the really special earlier episodes.

[00:00:21] Trisha: The episode we're going to replay is episode four with David Livermore. David is one of the main voices in cultural intelligence. He worked in Singapore alongside Sun Ang, who is one of the seminal researchers in the area. And the research team alongside her developing the model, he founded the CQ center in the understanding and the assessment tool to the public.

[00:00:45] Trisha: And he has been consulting, writing, and speaking about CQ cultural intelligence for many years. One of the reasons I love this episode is because we dig into how to really help ourselves and others work on developing CQ strategy. That's the metacognitive component. of cultural intelligence and it's what helps us to make the shifts that we need to so that we gain the cultural awareness of ourselves and of others

[00:01:12] Trisha: before we go to the episode I wanted to also let you know that Dave is about to launch the third edition of his book Leading with Cultural Intelligence. If you've written a book, updated it once, and then the publisher asks you to write another edition, that has to say something, and not that the first two were wrong.

[00:01:30] Trisha: It's more a reflection on how much this field has changed. The new research that's being done, the changes in attitudes towards diversity and globalization, and a reflection on how deeply aware David Livermore is of those changes, and how he's humble enough to see the need for updating and adding further content to help us all.

[00:01:52] Trisha: I'll have a link to pre order in the show notes, and as a special prize, if you are the first to post on LinkedIn about this episode, sharing something you learnt, and if you tag me in so that I can see it, I will send you a free copy of the book when I receive my pre ordered copies. Okay, so now to the episode.

[00:02:14] Trisha: I hope you enjoy it.

[00:02:16] Trisha: I would like to acknowledge the Dharawal people, the Aboriginal people of Australia, whose country I live and work on. I would like to pay my respects to their elders, past, present, and emerging, and thank them for sharing their cultural knowledge and awareness with us.

[00:02:30] Trisha: Hello, everyone. I'm Trisha Carter, an organizational psychologist and explorer of cultural intelligence. I'm on a quest to discover what enables us to see things from different perspectives, especially different cultural perspectives, and why sometimes it's easier than others to experience those moments of awareness.

[00:03:17] Trisha: The shift. We began this conversation with my guest today in the last episode, giving some real background understanding to cultural intelligence. So if you haven't heard that one, you're not too sure what CQ is, you might like to jump back and listen to that. Or you can do that after you've listened to today's episode.

[00:03:37] Trisha: So to introduce Dave, this is David Livermore, he's a social scientist devoted to the topic of cultural intelligence. He's conducted significant research in the area, founded the CQ Center, which has the online assessments, and that's where I was trained to become a facilitator in the CQ area. And he is a practitioner who's constantly working with global organizations, corporates, and NGOs on how to increase the cultural intelligence in their organizations.

[00:04:06] Trisha: Recently, he's taken on a new role as professor of global leadership at Boston University. And the leadership aspect is one that is really interesting as we think about cultural intelligence and as we think about helping people to make those moments of shifts. Today, we're going to talk about the element of cultural intelligence that is CQ strategy, what it is, how it helps us to increase our cultural intelligence and where that process of shift fits into it.

[00:04:35] Trisha: And because I'm asking all my guests, the following questions, going to ask it again of you, Dave, and maybe uncover some new stuff about culture and perspective taking together. So Dave, what is a culture other than the culture you grew up in that you've learned to love and appreciate?

[00:04:51] David: So the way I would answer that question this time is a country of which I am a citizen, but I did not grow up there and that's Canada.

[00:04:59] David: So I'm a dual citizen of the US and Canada. I have never lived in Canada and growing up, you know, while my parents always retained their Canadian citizenship, I identified very much with being an American and, you know, had some of just the healthy Canadian American rivalries that were there. And over time, I started to realize that one of the reasons I think I appreciated Canadian culture so much is actually I resonated with many aspects of it more than the U. S. culture. I'm sure in large part because my home and our family was a Canadian family, etc. So, yeah, there's, there's been a real resonance with that. And actually only a few years ago, it was during COVID. I actually got the certificate to say I was a Canadian citizen, as well as American. And, you know, I, I haven't yet gotten a Canadian passport, but part of that was, my mom had just passed, it was an important part of my identity to say, Hey, you know, this, this is part of who I am.

[00:05:58] David: Oh,

[00:05:58] Trisha: that's lovely. And in lots of ways, I think as a mother of someone who has we actually gave our children, New Zealand passports, and Zach was not born in New Zealand. He was born in Australia, but I'd like always to think that they have that special connection as well. And yeah, it probably is something about the way we raised them, the way you were raised and the values in the home.

[00:06:21] Trisha: We're talking in this podcast about culture and about how we see culture and about how sometimes we have these moments of shift. The moments when we have an aha experience and recognize things differently. So maybe we see a new perspective. Maybe we can hear our own judgments or biases, but a moment that is a moment of clarity.

[00:06:44] Trisha: So when we can Shift if you like, in the way that we are working and operating. So can you tell me about a time when you've experienced the shift?

[00:06:55] David: Yes. And this one's a little difficult to share. I haven't shared it publicly, um, other than just one other time. And, uh, let me back into it by saying many in the diversity space, as well as us in cultural intelligence, often say.

[00:07:10] David: You know, impact matters more than intent, you know, so intent is important, but I can't see your intent. All I know is how it impacted me. And so an experience where that kind of became illuminated for me was actually, um, in a culture very close to home. Last time I shared about one that happened in China.

[00:07:29] David: This was in my own organization that I was leading, and, um, I kind of have a reputation, and this won't surprise you, Tricia, because we have more than a decade of relationship, of being a bit of a jokester, lighthearted, trying to lighten the moment, and so I often have a reputation in our office of being someone who would either startle people or bang on the door, you know, our, our team was very fastidious and it always sounded like a library.

[00:07:53] David: So I'd come in after traveling for weeks at a time like good morning, everyone or something. So anyway, you know that people just knew that was my thing. Well, I'd heard through the grapevine that one of our staff, a young black woman was, you know, very bothered by the fact that I had a couple times like, Punched her cubicle in particular when I came in and actually voiced it is sometimes I wonder if this is like a microaggression and, you know, I started to hear about this.

[00:08:21] David: I'm like, Oh, my word. Like, is it? Of course, the initial reflection I wanted to do as it relates to shift is. Is there anything to the fact that she's black and I'm doing this and of course I immediately moved to no I did it to this guy who's white and this person here this is just obnoxious Dave and I should say my wife inserted as I was reflecting on this I've been telling you for 30 years most people don't like to be startled so maybe you could just stop doing it period but Regardless, the race part of it unnerved me, especially given the work that we do.

[00:08:53] David: So eventually, you know, indirectly through a few other people, I asked, can I have a conversation with this individual? And she was very nervous about it. You know, she's like, am I in trouble? You know, this was not like a formal HR complaint. I just kind of mentioned some, and you know, I assured her, I just want to like clear the air and have a conversation and learn for my benefit.

[00:09:15] David: So we began to talk and she kind of shared a little bit of the background of it. And I could tell she was very nervous as she was talking. And at one point, and I wouldn't always say this is the right question to ask, but at one point I said, can I ask you what you think my intention was? Of doing that.

[00:09:34] David: And she says, I think it was you being playful inside. I'm like, yes, that's exactly what it was. So intent, you know, did even come through. And she, but then she went on to say, she's like, however, I have, uh, a traumatic past with, uh, having experienced a lot of abuse. And, uh, when I'm startled like that, it triggers all kinds of things in me.

[00:10:00] David: And even though I could work out of my mind, you weren't trying to be abusive or trying to be discriminatory. I had to deal with all that. And she said, when I shared it with one of my coworkers, they were like, just tell Dave not to do it. And she's like, tell the most senior person in the organization, please don't do that to me.

[00:10:17] David: Uh, like that just felt like it was too big of a ask. So for me, the shift was, Oh my word, not only am I myself teaching about these topics all the time, and I even knew like intent doesn't translate into impact, but even though she did know my intent and viewed it as relatively innocent, it still didn't change that it had a negative impact.

[00:10:37] David: So I, it only happened a couple of years ago, but it's, it's one that I've reflected on a lot as. The ongoing shifts that I continue to do myself in this work, um, even while we talk to other people about how to do it better.

[00:10:52] Trisha: Absolutely. And I think that that is one of the key aspects that we need to be continuously learning.

[00:10:58] Trisha: And a lot of that learning, um, is embedded with, within our own thinking, um, and, and our willingness to go back and reflect and our willingness to be open to, to thinking about things, I guess. There wasn't a specific moment, it was probably a growth awareness for you, the new awareness about intent and impact.

[00:11:22] David: Yes, I would say overall, it was over a series of several weeks of, you know, moving from feeling defensive and like, well, fine, I'll just be Mr. Uptight, not show anyone like levity to eventually, you know, accepting it and having hope. But if I had to say a moment, it was. At that moment in the story I just shared where she's where she named my intent accurately.

[00:11:48] David: And it was like, I thought sure she was going to say like I was doing it to intimidate her or something and then it was like it in part it was disarming. Um, but it was You know, the very thing we teach so much in cultural intelligence that, you know, what means respect to me may not mean respect to you.

[00:12:08] David: Um, and many other examples of that.

[00:12:10] Trisha: Yeah. And what's going to build that relationship or what are the barriers? To building that relationship might be unexpected and, you know, something really important to somebody else that is of minor importance to us. And so if we aren't open to recognizing that,

[00:12:30] David: yeah, and I, I think you, you really synthesized it well there because.

[00:12:35] David: I think that's where sometimes people become defensive in diversity training, where we're talking about cultural intelligence of, well, give me a break. Like, you were trying to be a nice guy. It doesn't matter if I was trying to be a nice guy, if it makes you uncomfortable and she could even see I was trying to be a nice guy.

[00:12:52] David: It doesn't matter that it's, it's, you know, triggering experience for me. So,

[00:12:57] Trisha: and we also need to acknowledge the role of your wife. Um, you know, probably the person who, who is your reflection, your reflection piece quite often, I imagine.

[00:13:07] David: No, that's, that's a great point because in both ways, As I was overreacting, she was also like, hang on, you know, like the average person doesn't find that your humor is appalling and offensive, but that also doesn't mean you get a pass whenever you, so no, I appreciate you saying that because thankfully she's a confidant who will.

[00:13:30] David: Be hard on me. Most people don't like to be startled, but also be like, okay, let's not overreact here and say, I'm, my whole thing is a fake. I'm not even culturally intelligent in any way. So,

[00:13:41] Trisha: So let's take a step back and think about the, the aspect of cultural intelligence where the shift lives, which is CQ strategy.

[00:13:51] Trisha: And you've. You've researched this, you've written about this, you've coached, you know, leaders around the world about this. What are some things you want people to know about CQ strategy when you were training or coaching them?

[00:14:08] David: One thing I would want them to know is you may already be doing or at least hearing about practices that will Also help you in your CQ strategy.

[00:14:18] David: For example, all the talk that we're appropriately hearing these days about well being, meditation, mindfulness, yoga, whatever one's preferred thing is, I mean, you and I know well that the research says exercising that muscle, even if it isn't related to an intercultural experience can actually be something that will help you with it.

[00:14:39] David: So in part, don't make this harder than it is, like realize some of the other things that you're doing can help with it. I would say I've used, uh, in both the episodes we've done together, I've used the word reflection several times. And I do think that's something that's fairly concrete that people can relate to of how do I reflect on this?

[00:14:59] David: For me, you know, this about me, Trisha for me, reflection happens most with writing. Like, I take my journal with me everywhere in the world. And almost every morning, I'm reflecting a little bit on you. You know, what conversations did I have yesterday? Okay, I interacted with Trisha and I had a interesting conversation about something she's just been through.

[00:15:18] David: What did I learn from that? I have many friends and colleagues who would say, Oh, put a put a, I don't want to use that metaphor, but someone who who might just say, you know, Please don't make me right. Let's do that. And in some cases, I might say, Oh, come on, push yourself. But in other ways, they may say, I'm a verbal processor.

[00:15:38] David: Like, you know, let me go for a walk with my friend and talk through the experience of what happened. So I think we need to. pull back from the dogmas on here's how you exercise mindfulness. It should, you should be meditating five minutes every day. You should be journaling every day, or you must be doing yoga.

[00:15:57] David: Figure out what it is for you. You should be, if I can use a should, engaging in some kind of reflection, but Find the one that, you know, you don't have to work extra hard to do it. I mean, there's always some discipline, um, two other things I'd say in terms of what I would want people to know if I was coaching or exhorting them to think about CQ strategy.

[00:16:19] David: One is just the value of a cultural interpreter. So, particularly with the kind of situation that I just talked with, I have a few friends who. also happen to be black, but you know, that there could be other individuals who could help me with this too, who I really process that experience with them. And I knew they wouldn't worry about being tough on a white guy would give it to me like it is, but like, help me kind of think through what's an appropriate way to do that, you know, name the culture and it can be super valuable if we have that.

[00:16:51] David: And then the last thing I would say is sometimes. I think people might think of something like awareness as a very passive thing. Like I'm just sitting around and am I aware, but that awareness is, it's actually, you know, it can be a verb that it's a very active kind of anticipating and purposely saying what's going on in this situation.

[00:17:14] David: What, what do I need to pay attention to? And I know that's a lot of work that you do when you're coaching too, like of, of what should I be aware and aware of what? So. Those are a few thoughts that I would share.

[00:17:27] Trisha: And those are brilliant. I think sometimes like you, I've had people go, you know, journaling.

[00:17:34] Trisha: No, I mean, I, I wrote a guided journal, um, to help people in the process of adapting to another country. And yes, you, you reviewed it for me, but, um, I will offer that to people and they'll go on not, not really my thing,

[00:17:49] Trisha: Which we understand. And. Some people don't actually process with other people as well.

[00:17:56] Trisha: And so when I'm, I'm working with people, it's, it's almost like some people exist. Uh, and, and, um, I don't have any research behind this. It's probably more coming out of my coaching. Um, processes and practices that some people exist on a, on a level of operating intuitively, but they're not necessarily stepping into that observer position.

[00:18:20] Trisha: You know, um, in leadership training and coaching, we often talk about, you know, stepping onto the balcony and seeing your team operating and interacting. And, and it's that process of being able to sit above things, um, both self and others. And it's almost like a. Want to take people's hands and help them to step to that place.

[00:18:43] Trisha: And some people seem to do it quite well and others are a little bit, you know, it's more challenging for them to see that. And I'm wondering if you've had conversations like that with people.

[00:18:54] David: Yeah. And I mean, we can all probably even think about friendships, right? Where it's like, wow, are you aware of anyone else you've talked about yourself for the last 30 minutes straight?

[00:19:04] David: Um, and I, I would say there's some research to bear out what you're talking about, that in part, a lot of successful executives in particular, Are very intuitive and talk about. I just know in my gut. I know what the data is going to say before I even see it, but it's really not just from the gut. Like, there's been years and years of programming it that gave them kind of a 6th sense, if you will, of what it's there where I think this becomes so important is when you're in a diverse or an unfamiliar situation.

[00:19:34] David: Suddenly. Now, the gut may be telling you the wrong thing. And so you've been programmed to say. X means Y when it actually may mean Zed in this scenario. And to be more concrete about it, like if you're picking up on what someone's eye contact means or doesn't mean, well, that might be what it's always told you in a Western context, but what does it mean now that you're in this Middle Eastern context or Latin American one?

[00:19:57] Trisha: There's two components that I think, uh, um, sort of different perspectives, if you like, and we can have different shifts with, so one of it is awareness of self And awareness, I think of our own culture and where, you know, what we have grown up to believe we've, we've, you know, the analogy is often the fish swimming in the water, we've taken that water for granted as something we can breathe in and then encountering a different culture.

[00:20:26] Trisha: Culture, we suddenly realize that other people think very differently and we can see what we ourselves believed. And for those of you who have been listening to the series so far, that was one of the examples I gave in the initial introductory episode. Uh, but so there's, there's, how do we help people do that?

[00:20:45] Trisha: And how do we help people recognize their own both, both cultural, uh, programming and also the moments when we might be responding to something in a way that. You know, it's not the way we want as, as you said about how, you know, your initial response was, well, if you, you know, if you, if you can see it, why don't you, so the initial response may not be the most helpful one.

[00:21:09] Trisha: And we need to sort of step through that to something else. So if we think about that, first of all, um, becoming more aware of ourself, you know, where, where have you seen that growth happen? What have you done to facilitate that?

[00:21:24] David: A couple thoughts. One is, um, you know, international experiences are one of the best ways to gain insight on yourself because you often find yourself comparing yourself to where you're going.

[00:21:38] David: And we have found that they often have far more value for those of us who are from the majority culture at home than they might be people from underrepresented groups. Because if you are. a person of color in a place like Australia or, well, depending where in Australia, but a place like Australia or the U. S., um, you're constantly aware of how different you are from other people. But, you know, there was some interesting research done a few years ago about a Pennsylvania University where the professor asked the white students to describe their culture and they're like, What do you mean, you know, whereas to ask a black student to do it, it came very naturally to them.

[00:22:18] David: So I said international, it could also be just going to a different region in your own country or being surrounded in a different ethnic community. But that's a key part. I certainly don't pretend to be an expert on this, but books like The Body Keeps the Score are things that I think can be really useful when we're thinking about this practice of how do I pay attention to things like my heart rate, um, what happens to me in general when I get stressed, and are those things happening as I'm inter countering, as I'm encountering, rather, an intercultural situation?

[00:22:50] David: Are my shoulders going up? Am I tense? Am I talking faster? Uh, et cetera. So, That mindfulness that direction, no substitute for having a coach if individuals have that of, you know, people giving feedback on how they they see themselves. Um, so those, those are a couple of things in terms of the, the inward.

[00:23:11] David: Other things you would add that I've missed.

[00:23:13] Trisha: No, I I'm I'm I love the body keeps the score. I think that's really good in terms of noticing yourself and noticing what's happening within you. I also it's almost like there's an element where you need to be able to notice you're inner dialogue. Um, and at the same time, not get so caught up in it.

[00:23:35] Trisha: So there's a, there's a balance there. And I'll often ask people, you know, what did you hear yourself saying in that moment? You know, what, what was going on inside your head to sort of unpack a little bit around whether there's a bias or a judgment that might be happening, which, you know, we know, um, unconscious bias, one of its problems is that it's unconscious.

[00:23:57] David: Right.

[00:23:58] Trisha: So we often don't pull ourselves up on our, the thoughts that might be running through our head that might help us to uncover some of those biases. So, yeah, it's a little bit like trying to take, take the conversations we might be having with ourselves. If we can make them explicit, then we can see them.

[00:24:18] Trisha: And sometimes see how ridiculous they are, um, or see where they are, um, perhaps showing that other people are thinking differently, that it's not about judgment. It's about difference.

[00:24:31] David: Yeah. And you reminded me when you mentioned unconscious bias, I mean, another tool that many of us are very familiar with, but may not leverage enough are all the different assessments and inventories that are out there.

[00:24:42] David: So whether it's something like the implicit association test, whether it's a CQ assessment, whether it's a cultural values inventory and finding out, do I, am I scoring more individualists or collectivists? And that can be a powerful tool of reflection, particularly if I then have a conversation with my team.

[00:25:02] David: And I might say, this says I'm direct. I don't think I'm direct at all. And the team going, really? Cause we all think you're very, or maybe like, yeah, I agree. You don't seem very direct. So, you know, assessments only have value in the way that we actually make meaning from them. But I think that can be another, another useful tool.

[00:25:22] David: A strategy that I think may serve as a segue between the internal awareness and other awareness is sort of that infamous Toyota principle that they used of five why's, you know, asking, you know, why is it that this individual was upset that I startled them? Okay. Well, why did that trigger kind of fear or why?

[00:25:43] David: Did they think that even though I'm playful that I still wasn't a safe person to let them know, please not do that, etc. So I think in ourself, I can ask, why was I so irritated by that? Or why was I feeling so stressed? And when it's with others, I don't mean that we should be asking that person. Why are you upset with this?

[00:26:02] David: But asking internally? What's behind that? And what's behind that? And that so forth. So it's a fairly simple technique that, you know, many of us have ripped off from the Toyota method of quality control, but to say, and in the awareness place as well, we can use it as a way to dig deeper into trying to make sense of our awareness of ourselves, of others, and of situations.

[00:26:24] Trisha: Yeah, yeah, that's that's so true. The five why's is really helpful. If you're thinking about the awareness of others, and I know we've got, you know, a whole lot of differences coming to the play here and some cultures are more other focused. Um, some people's, um, neuro divergence may make them. You know, less able to observe others or may make them increasingly aware, you know, um, almost painfully aware of others.

[00:26:55] Trisha: So what are the things when you're thinking about, um, helping people to recognize, , How other people are showing up with us and, and taking that into account. I think we all know people who operate on their own track and continue on that track. And we really want them to be alert to what might be happening in front of them that they're just not observing.

[00:27:21] David: In front of them with others, or yeah, so one one technique that I use repeatedly with groups because it's rooted in so much important research around metacognition is perspective taking and in particular, first person perspective taking and. You've heard me share this research before, but Adam Galinsky out of Columbia assigned a group of students, um, to describe an elderly gentleman sitting on a park bench in New York City.

[00:27:50] David: And he separated them into 3 groups. The 1st group, um, all he said was. Write a paragraph about what you see. The second group, he said, don't use any negative stereotypes about this elderly gentleman that's sitting there. Just describe him in neutral terms. The third group, he said, right in the first person, you are this elderly gentleman.

[00:28:08] David: What do you see? And what he found. was that the first group very much resorted to a lot of negative stereotypes about the elderly. Oh, poor clueless lonely man, you know, in his final years withering health. Second group was just kind of clinical. I sit here every day. I see this. Third group wrote the most positive humanizing description.

[00:28:31] David: I've had such a rich life. I've watched some of these same kids walk across these blocks for years to go to school and now to work and now taking their own kids. And so I'll often use that as, Hey, when, particularly if you're interacting with someone who seems to not be able to even appreciate why someone might have a different perspective than theirs, try to voice their perspective in the first person in non pejorative ways.

[00:28:54] David: And I was doing this with a lot of companies when we were in the throes of the vaccine debate surrounding COVID. And on both sides of it for the anti vaxxers, okay, could you for a moment just argue against yourself from the perspective of someone who thinks vaccines should be mandated in the workplace and vice versa?

[00:29:12] David: And it starts to mitigate some of this clueless sheeple who don't know what they're talking about, um, to saying, okay. Even though I still don't agree with the perspective, I could at least see how you may arrive at that perspective that's different from mine. So I find it's just one of those relatively simple things, but it's just a shift.

[00:29:32] David: There's that word. I wasn't even trying to do it, but in helping us kind of think through. The eyes of somebody else.

[00:29:39] Trisha: And that is very powerful in the way you've described it, the research and then putting it into practice with, you know, some of the clients that you're working with is, is very powerful.

[00:29:48] Trisha: Thank you for sharing that. And that probably is a good place to wrap up. So, uh, thank you so much, Dave. I was going to say, is there anything else? And then I remembered that, uh, in your, your book, you were talking about, Don't ask if people have any further questions, but ask, what questions do you have? So imply that there probably is something else.

[00:30:09] Trisha: So what, what haven't we discussed that is part of your thinking that would have been helpful?

[00:30:14] David: You know, there are a number of. Interesting innovations coming out to help us with the idea of mindfulness and metacognition. And some of those things are like eye tracking software to have people watch a video incident and see how they respond, looking at the brain activity.

[00:30:30] David: But a much simpler way that all of us can, can work on being more mindful ourselves of how our activity looks is things like filming ourselves on a zoom call, you know, seeing like, Oh, and it's painful. Right. But watching. The recording afterward, you and I were recently exposed to an application Yodlee, uh, having a, something that kind of tracks your communication and your, your word choice.

[00:30:56] David: And I remember you said this at the time it was being demoed to us that not only the feedback from it, just knowing that your conversation was being tracked was a mindfulness activity, a metacognitive kind of exercise of. Thinking about thinking in terms of what you're doing. So for all the appropriate fears about AI and some of that that's out there.

[00:31:17] David: There are also some really good tools that I think we ought to leverage to help us work on how we make the shifts related to our cultural perspectives and our development of cultural intelligence.

[00:31:28] Trisha: Absolutely. And maybe there's some we can build. Um, we'll keep thinking about this. Um, thank you so much, Dave.

[00:31:35] Trisha: This has been really brilliant. Uh, I will be putting lots of resources into the show notes for, to help people just dig a little bit deeper and, uh, feel free to continue on this journey with us as we navigate the shifts and looking to increase our cultural intelligence through increasing our cultural awareness.

[00:31:55] Trisha: Thank you so much, Dave. Really appreciate it.

[00:31:57] David: Thank you, Trisha.