In part one, Morgan Wright tore apart the prevailing

narrative of the Guthrie case using first principles investigation.

Today we go deeper.

Morgan was in the room after nine 11 helping design how 18,000 law

enforcement agencies share intelligence.

He had the data to catch the DC snipers before they were ever caught, and now

he's built a platform that tracked down a fugitive in just 36 hours that law

enforcement couldn't find for six months.

Today, Morgan tells us how technology

And artificial intelligence are about to change cold case investigation

forever, and how you as a citizen can be part of solving cases

that have gone cold for decades.

This is heroes behind the badge.

I am a little more interested in Morgan.

I wanna find out about Morgan's

Organization and some of the interesting things that you said that are new,

cutting edge technology and ways to go about investigating crime.

So Morgan, maybe you can tell us about that a little bit.

I'd be happy to.

All right,

so this actually, this idea actually started, the

genesis of it was after nine 11 I was doing work, inside DOD on the

counterintelligence field activity, joint counterintelligence assessment group.

We were saying we've gotta look at this, all this data, we have all

these systems and, and, find the risk.

And then, uh, nine 11 happened and, I was doing work.

I ended up working with the Department of Justice.

I actually, I'm the architect.

I wrote the entire concept, what's called the concept of operations 145

page strategy on how to share information between all 18,000 federal, tribal,

state, and local law enforcement agencies.

And if you're listening out there, and you know what Ban is, that was our first win.

There used to be like two and a half separate systems for ballistics.

We actually made the case, there should be a single system, should

be that sole source of information.

And so we got that done.

But the, thing I was frustrated with

That led into I was the lead subject matter expert, consolidate

into the terrorist watch list.

We did the proposal, I came in 'cause I was doing work at justice.

We looked at all the dots.

Here's the case study on that real quick and why, what I'm doing, why

I believe in what I'm doing now.

Um, in April of 2001, Nawaf al-Hazmi, who was who, uh, through link analysis

we determined is like the second most important person behind Mohamed Atta.

He was stopped by the Oklahoma Highway Patrol, written a ticket.

Guess what?

Checked it in CIC.

His record is in NCIC offline.

He was let go.

He paid his ticket in August of 2001.

State Department puts him on a watch list.

Why do you put somebody on a watch list who's already in the country?

So we missed the chance to connect the dots there Several times, some

of these hijackers were stopped, like Muhammad Atta was stopped in July.

He had, overstayed his visa at that point.

Uh, he had warrants in another county for failure to appear, and

we failed to connect the dots.

Wow.

So,

and that's, what, what, when I was talk, we were talking

about doing work on the sniper case.

I kept telling 'em, guys, all the data you need is there.

We need to look at it the same way, the way ViCAP, the violent criminal

apprehension program is supposed to work.

You look at, the, crime scene, you look at the body, you look at whatever it

is right there of signatures that you, and then you say, these are similar, a

uh, serial killer may change their mo, but they rarely change their signature.

So you look at what's the signature.

But, I started saying, Hey, look, If you look at the number of people

in the US age, 16 or older, and the NIJ, national Institutes of

Justice did all these studies.

It's a certain amount, the number that have at least one contact

with law enforcement, then two, then three, then fourth, then five.

That number got very small.

So I said, let's supply that same model and draw circles

around every, what's called ORI.

That's kinda like the IP address for an agency.

It identifies very specifically who an agency is and where.

Let draw circles around that and then compare everything

that's been run in NCIC offline.

Compare that and find out what's in common.

Well, guess what?

I found Bill, 97 vehicles had been run in the National Capital Region, had

had their tags run two or more times.

Out of those 97, 3 were Chevy Caprices.

One belonged to Malvo and Muhammad, and four times the Chevy Caprice

was seen leaving the shooting.

We had all the data we needed to do it.

So I said, okay.

Fast forward, 2013.

my last quote, official job executive.

I was an executive at Bell Labs Tel Lucent, but actually my team

built what's now called FirstNet.

We did the first demonstration of it.

We rolled it out.

Um, I, so I voice like this tech intersection between

people and technology.

So 2013, I had this idea that says, Hey, look, we're all connected to a case.

Well, at that time, what was the platform that connected

everybody in Six Ways to Sunday?

It was Facebook, so I said, let's quit treating cases, like

they're just a, a standalone.

Let's treat cases like there were profile on Facebook and

how are you connected to those?

So I originally started off date, location, time, demographics,

relation, and then I was morphed into geographic demographic, psychographic.

But so I did, I built it, did a demonstration.

Mike Chapman here in Loudoun County, he's a good friend of mine.

For a long time sheriff there, I said, Hey, gimme a fugitive case.

And it kind of looked like this.

He said, Hey, I said, only open source information.

I don't want no CGIs.

No.

So this is actually a US Al case that I'm working on with the US Marshals,

but I, that's all I got was a flyer.

I took that flyer, did open source research, found another 15

locations this guy was known to be in, put that into our system.

They'd been looking for this guy for six months.

We found him in 36 hours.

Three states away in a place.

They had no idea he was there.

And the reason it was being, it goes back to, we're all connected somehow.

So when I looked at this, I said I wanted to find everything that

connected somebody back to this crime.

Um, I did a whole case study on the Cleveland kidnappings, Amanda Berry,

Gina DeJesus, and Michelle Knight.

I don't, a lot of people don't realize, but they were all held

within five miles of where they were kidnapped, I think three miles.

And when you look at the sketch that they had of the suspect and compared

it to Ariel Castro, I'm telling you that is I've seen, and I know you

guys have had scenes of sketches done by police artists, sometimes they

don't even come close to matching.

Right.

This looked like somebody took the picture and drew his.

Through, the sketch from his picture.

It was so good, but yet they didn't share that information in the neighborhoods

where this is, where this had happened.

So I said, we gotta solve that.

Mm. So quick question.

I just want, I, I just wanna see if we can jump back into that, and of

course, without giving away trade secrets, you got it done in 36 hours.

Can you expound on that?

Oh, it's not a trade secret.

It's, it's the, all I did was think about it the way nobody else

did, which is everybody treated Facebook like, Hey, we'll just go on

Facebook and we'll post a picture.

Here's what we're looking for.

bill, the only way you would know that exists is if you're

scrolling through Facebook.

And you happen to see that post by that department on that day before it

gets buried by 10 other posts, right?

So, I said, no, we, have to, how do, we maintain persistence?

Codis, uh, bin, uh, it was a AFIS at the time.

It's now NGI.

How do we put something in there so it persists and it

waits for connection to happen?

So I just simply said, treat the case as a profile, as a person.

So that person has location.

So if you go into Facebook, you can say, Hey, I used to live

here, here, here, and here.

And then.

How many times have you guys logged into Facebook and found a

connection to somebody that's like, on a completely different computer?

A completely different network?

Completely different email, of course.

Yeah.

And it's like May.

So Facebook and a lot of these folks are very eerie how they do it.

So Bill, that's all I did.

I just simply said, Hey look, where's this guy live?

And then based on that, when people connected, they connected to our system.

We had like 50,000 users at one time and about 500 agencies.

when they connected they, they would link their.

Facebook profile to the system?

Well, the Facebook profile compared their profile to the case profile

and found out what they had in common, and that's how we found it.

Actually, I did a whole segment on uh, A, B, C.

Uh, they interviewed Mike, they interviewed me.

About how we found the guy, and that was just simply, it was just

connecting those things in common.

But it, you can't connect the dots unless you collect the dots.

Bill and the dots all have to be in one place.

So what I did was I re-architected it because the problem with Facebook.

And I'm not talking about it as a company, but just talk.

The whole logistical problem is the algorithm changes all the

time, and it's a privacy issue.

They don't own, they own the data.

We never own the data.

So how did we redo this?

So it came to me and said, well, let's just use open source information,

geographic demographic, psychographic.

Everything has to translate back into geospatial, into a location, but.

For example, take this case that I'm working on right now at the Marshalls.

If we, we've actually got this listed on our site.

So if you go to, uh, OpenUnsolved.org, you can find, you can click on

the thing that says Active cases.

She's one of the cases here.

This flyer only lists two locations.

Just the town of where the crime was committed.

And then the location in Ohio where she killed her boyfriend, dismembered

him and dumped his body parts on I 75.

Well, I went through, I found another 12 or 13 locations I found family

members she was connected to, which now becomes additional locations.

and so that's the way we approach it.

We say, what are all the locations in common?

That's how we approach it.

I started with a flyer like this with Mike Chapman.

So now all of our cases we're putting in, we've got the pilot's going on right

now, so we actually have a pilot program.

Uh, we're gonna cap it at 15.

We're almost there.

So if any agencies are interested, uh, you can go to OpenUnsolved.org.

You can register under the law enforcement side.

But we've got agencies right now from California to Virginia.

wow.

You know, and we're, we're looking for all different sizes.

So, so to kind of bring it back, you know, what's the system is.

So, um, when we did it this way, we partnered with the Chesterfield County

Police Department and the Virginia Association Chiefs, the police.

So I've, I've known Dana Schrad and VACP (Virginia Association of Chiefs

of Police) for many, many years.

Good partners, good friends.

So we actually, through Chesterfield, through Jeff Katz, who is the

colonel there, who's now the Colonel of the State Police in Virginia.

Which is good for us.

we were able to get two grants from DOJ and help build this out.

Now these are micro grants, so we built this entire system based on

less money than you would pay with fringe and benefits and salary.

Less than you would pay one and a half executives for one year and one agency.

So it's very.

It's been very much, we had to make some trade-offs, but the system's functional.

It's operational.

We've got cases in there now.

We are, what we're doing now is I'm a firm believer in community policing.

Uh, I sat on the ICP community policing committee for six years, so I never

solved a case with too few leads.

I always solved a case than we had more leads than we ever needed, which

was good, bad in a way, but good.

But so.

this can't work just on the police alone.

This is the only system in the United States that puts the police and the

public on the same platform to share locations in common between locations

in their life that are relevant to them.

Yes.

Comparing it to locations in a case.

And so it sits like codis, like DNA.

You put a profile in there.

And it either makes a match or it doesn't.

And if it doesn't make a match, it sits there and it waits until something's

put in that it does make a match.

And now everybody benefits.

So our goal is to link all the crime stoppers together and the

crime solvers into one unified place, one unified platform.

But we're rolling it out, in Virginia and California, probably

Ohio and maybe Tennessee with our pilot program right now.

Morgan, before when you started the interview, you, I

just wanna talk about something that, that we were chatting about before

and, you were talking about how now you're using technology mm-hmm.

And, uh, all these social media sites and whatnot, to, bring together,

to show who went to school together and who lived in the same town or

who lived in the same neighborhood.

Talk about that a little bit.

So that just comes from the pattern matching.

So it's like when you look at a case, So you think about doing victimology,

like say on a homicide, a lot of people just look at it around that.

But when we say, when we look at it, we look at it from a geospatial standpoint,

and a temporal standpoint, geospatial.

It's not only where's the victim live right then, and where did

she work, but where was she born?

Where did she go to school?

Where are all of these other places that are relevant in her

life that may generate a lead?

Because guess what, like I used to live in Kansas, so if

you put a case in from Kansas.

I'm not living in Kansas anymore.

Haven't been there for 26 years, but I would get a notification now

because I used to live there where that case was and I might know the guy.

Look, if you guys remember America's Most Wanted, I mean, I was a

technical advisor with John Walsh and his crew for a year and a half.

Yeah, John Wal.

I was there for the 1000th episode.

One of the things I designed called Digital Signage for Public Safety, we

actually featured on the 1000th episode.

Imagine when a MW launched, everybody says, is this gonna work or not?

Then they caught an FBI top 10, and then it kind of exploded from there.

But with, TV, you have to be watching.

It was appointment tv.

They might have 3000 cases, but again, 44 minutes of network television.

You might be lucky to get five cases on there, right?

And 2,995 don't get the time of day.

Then you also get what they call white girl syndrome, the Gabby Petito

case, all this focus on her right.

What are we doing for all the other cases?

So the way the technology works is we don't care.

Age, race, sex, height, socio, doesn't matter.

It's like we treat it like a profile.

It, stays in there.

It's ones and zeros.

It doesn't care.

But if you come in because of one case bill, if you come in because of

a case that involves Nancy Guthrie.

And you say, Hey, I wanna find out if I'm connected to that case.

You have zero connection to that, but you might be connected to 10 other

cases that you weren't aware about.

So it doesn't matter.

Case brings you in, we connect you to everything that's inside there.

And then the second thing we're doing, um, we want to create, and we've

already started doing this, so we've, we want to create the first, what's

called large language model for law enforcement, a universal large language

model, harness the power of ai,

right?

The way we're doing that right now is, doesn't matter which.

Chat bot.

You use like a, uh, chat.

Chat, GPT, perplexity.

Grok, Claude.

But, I'm working with Johnny Capelli out of Chesterfield County, but I started,

I'm saying, why don't we do this, right?

Why don't we create structured prompts and take advantage of the power of ai?

So, um, we've now got several structured prompts for homicide

cases, uh, kidnappings.

Missing persons fugitives that go through.

And once you set the context, the role you, you do the interview so

that chat bot asks you questions.

Then the task I generated about a 15 page document and I shared it with the marshals

stuff that they weren't even aware of.

And so what we wanna do is how do I make an investigator.

Be able to do 10 times the work without working 10 times longer.

Right?

And so we have to figure out how to harness the power of ai.

So we're actually gonna do a one hour course called Structured

Prompts for criminal investigations.

That's brilliant.

What we're

brilliant.

But every agency I've talked to so far on this

pilot program, this is one of the questions I ask, are you using ai?

And do you know what a structured prompt is?

No.

Johnny Capelli, and I know we're recording this on a day, nobody,

it'll come out later, but.

We're recording this on a Friday.

The day before Johnny, the guy I'm working with, he's our liaison.

He retired from Chesterfield County, an expert in nobody,

body homicides, cold cases.

He's actually working with the Texas Rangers on a case.

He produced a report using the structured prompt I developed, and he's

enhanced, gave it to the Texas Rangers.

These guys are, you know, and girls are great.

They go, how did you do this?

Where did you get this?

And he said.

That's it.

So this is really just introducing people to the power of what's already out there.

And again, we're, we're a nonprofit, we're funded by the government right now.

Now would we take donors?

I don't wanna take anything away from you guys, but if anybody wants to donate to

us, we're a C3, we'll take your money.

You know, but we're looking, but what we're looking to do is get

funded the same way NCMEC does.

Ncmec, the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children.

As a authorization.

The program's authorized every year or every four years.

They get 47 to 50 million a year.

They have about 250 employees.

We're saying we're gonna invert that model and be very technology focused.

AI focused.

We're we're analysts.

We're not investigators in the field, not case managers.

We wanna make it easier for you to solve your case.

So we've inverted our model.

We can do with 19 people and $6.75 million.

We can cover every case.

Any case that's listed in the NCIC manual, we can cover all those cases.

And by the way, the internet has no concept of distance.

Doesn't matter where you are in the world, we can make connections

between here to Australia.

So Morgan, this is Morgan.

If this is a big question, this comes up all the time and we have a mass

shooting or some crazy crime, you know, clearly everything we're talking

about right now, it's much easier to be an investigator today than it was

20 years ago because of technology.

But oftentimes we'll have these mass shootings, these school shootings,

and it always comes up and, and says, well, there were these red flags and

there were these posts on social media.

Why wasn't this identified earlier?

How, do you think that what you're talking about may potentially be able

to identify those things in advance?

So Bill, I would say we're not really geared towards doing that.

That's more like open source intelligence and looking at all sources and stuff.

But I will tell you though, one of the ways you can address it.

But here's the problem.

I wouldn't say it's easier than it was 20 years ago.

I, we have more data than we had 20 years ago, and that leads to what

I called informational entropy.

In other words, we can get so much information, we're drowning in it.

The mind can only hold four to six concepts at a time.

the mind is for having ideas not holding them.

And I tell people, my mind's like a bookshelf.

It went on, another book falls off.

But the question, that you're talking about is how do you derive

intent or behavior out of posts when you're, when yeah, I mean, how many?

Not just petabytes, but zetabytes of data is out there

that you have to comb through.

So I would tell people, it's always easy looking backwards to connect the dots.

It's very difficult.

To connect the dots looking forward, right?

So somebody would say, but you know what, that boils down to that a lot of times

that boils down to if you're online and you see behavior like this, is there a

structured way for somebody to report their concerns that's coordinated,

like in a fusion center or a threat center to where that can be looked at?

We know that in Parkland, we know that in uh, some other cases they said,

Hey, well the FBI had this information.

I'm not gonna knock the FBI, I don't know exactly what the case is, but I

will tell you if I'm a detective and I'm sitting there and you give me 20

volumes on a cold case homicide, and you say, Hey, I want you up to speed on this

by tomorrow morning, not gonna happen.

There's no way I can hold 20 volumes in my head.

So we have to look at how does.

How does artificial intelligence properly constrained?

You gotta put the guardrails on it.

That's why a highway has boundaries.

You know, you, you just can't be just riding, driving all over the place.

But we have to be very structured about how we do this.

But I think there's ways that's more intelligence analysis.

and, and there are products out there that do that we're more focused on

for crimes that have been committed.

and you're looking to develop leads on that.

How do we help you generate, those.

Morgan, what's the website people can go to?

I mean, this is fascinating.

You want the public's help?

Uh, where, where can they go to get started Here?

OpenUnsolved.org.

And now look guys, it's a work in progress.

'cause right now we're of all volunteer organization.

I've been doing this for a year.

Longer than that, but I've been working without pay for a year

trying to get this up and running.

So, um, we're, while the website looks nice, there's a couple things

we need to fix, so judge us on that yet, but judge us by the results we're

getting where every agency I talk to.

So any agency, whether you're law enforcement or citizen,

if you go to OpenUnsolved.org.

You can start as a citizen, you can start registering and in fact, one

of the things I've already done, I've got a online guide for law enforcement

and an online guide for citizens.

So you can, you'll be able to click it and it will show you, Hey,

this is how you use our platform.

This is what you do.

Now, what I'd love to do, Craig, this is one of the things we're working on.

Once you get to a mobile app, for me, that's the game changer.

That's the killer thing that we need right now.

Because how do people live their life?

If I ask you guys to show me your phone, I guarantee you your phone's within

arm's reach right, are pretty close.

So, but everybody has one of these things.

This is how they prefer to do it.

So while we're web based, right now, we're moving to mobile.

That's great.

Hey, I wanna shift back.

I, I, while I got you, I mean

Yeah.

you, you've been so involved and immersed in the Nancy Guthrie case.

One thing that's always troubled me, and, and I know we've

talked about it a little bit.

You, you got one guy.

in the video, the ring camera, uh, video, and we've all seen it.

I just can't imagine if this was a planned abduction, that there wouldn't

have been more than one person involved because you've got a, a woman that, you

know, you're, she may be incapacitated, she not real mobile to begin with.

We understand.

wouldn't this person that we keep seeing in the video have had an

accomplice or maybe more than one?

What's your thought?

That's one thing I said, if you have an abduction, if it,

if this is not a burglar gone wrong, but a targeted abduction, then on

an abduction you need three things.

Entry control, exit.

And so one of those things on control is how do you control that person?

Look, you might be, I remember when I was a state trooper, I

was, uh, you know, applied for it.

I was pretty physically fit.

I was coming outta the police department.

I was in the Army Reserves, you know.

But to drag 150 pound dummy, that's dead weight.

It's not that easy.

So, um, that's what leads me to say, if this was targeted deduction, then

where's the logistics for exit, which means a vehicle, And so now there is

some video out there and you, I think a lot of people are assuming too much,

but there are some indications in one of the videos that they show that it looks

like there might have been a mobile phone screen or something like that flashing,

which might indicate a second person.

But I tell people the video, we don't have all the video.

And we don't even know what law enforcement knows, but I would say

if I were looking at this again, just using first principles, it

doesn't matter what you believe, it's matters what must be true,

right?

There are enough signals to indicate that as a targeted abduction

because how else would that person, um.

Because what I would expect to see inside the house, and I, some

people say, you're sounding morbid.

No, I'm clinical.

It's an investigator, right?

You gotta just compartmentalize.

But if she was, if she was somehow subdued and left in the house and

already bleeding, you would expect to find a puddle of blood where

she was laying as the offender went and got a vehicle of if he's, uh,

acting solo and then bring her out.

So I would say, Craig, if inside the house, there's no evidence of

that, but it looks like the injury started in the house and went right

out and went right to a vehicle then.

I would say you, you must be, you have to consider the possibility

that there's a second person.

It's too tough to do a targeted abduction.

And we were talking about, I think, you might've said something, bill, but, so one

of the things I did to test this, I had, I, I got a hold of Pete Ferelli, if you

guys, some of you guys might know Pete.

Pete was one of the whistleblowers on Fast and Furious, um, was an ad at a TF.

He's written a book called The Deadly Path.

He's a buddy of mine, but Pete was an a TF agent.

In Phoenix operating, covering Phoenix in Tucson, they, investigated home invasions.

So we talked about home invasions.

How do they work?

You know, what mechanics are there?

'cause a home invader, it's about forced entry, it's about surprise.

They, they come to control, they have mechanisms for control.

and we talked about express kidnappings.

And one of my other friends, Aaron Graham, that was with DEA, he actually had a

bounty, a half a million dollar bounty put on him while he was down in Mexico and

they had to move him across the border.

So he was in Tucson.

Actually ran into some of the cartel guys.

So we talked about, to your point, bill, after you were talking about

earlier, how does the cartel operate?

We kind of disabused people of that.

'cause the cartel doesn't deal in crypto and all this other BS of

these quote ransom communications.

I think that was a big distraction.

So, bring it all back.

I, Craig, if I were investigating this, I would leave my mind open to the

possibility that you've got a second person, which means you may not have

that person's DNA at the crime scene at all if they were inside the vehicle.

Right.

You know, at all.

So, um,

was there any evidence of forced entry?

I, I haven't heard any.

The only thing I remember seeing is Fox News had a drone that they

flew around the house, and so I think there were two doors and three windows,

or maybe three doors and two windows.

I don't remember.

But, but they flew around it and they looked at it.

there were no signs of forced entry anywhere now.

but then you back up from that going, okay, forced entry.

It doesn't, It doesn't eliminate the possibilities that one of the

doors was accidentally left unlocked.

Look, I'm pretty careful about locking my doors at night, but there's

sometimes I come down in the morning and I open up my garage door to take

out, 'cause I got two cats, so I gotta scoop the litter and I walk out and

I left my garage door open all night.

I'm going, you know,

oh my.

And look, the other thing too is.

The other thing guys, she's 84.

she was out at her, at her, uh, daughter's and son-in-law's house

for four and a half, five hours, probably came back pretty tired.

Is it possible that somebody at that age would have missed locking a door?

that's one of the things I think that's a hypothesis you have to consider.

Yeah.

What about in the video?

We see, uh, uh, the film showing the intruder with a backpack on

most of the time, but then we see another video shot of seemingly the

same guy, but without the backpack.

I mean, was this two different times that he came to that door?

Was, did he just take off the backpack?

I mean, what's your theory on that?

One of the things we're missing, and this is why it was

so tough, people thought, well, why couldn't they get this video earlier?

Well, Nancy Guthrie had no subscription.

but what a lot of people don't recognize in your terms of service on your video

camera, and I've got, I've got a similar setup, uh, I've got ring doorbells

and stuff, but I have a subscription.

But what you don't realize on there is they collect, even if you don't have an

account, they're still collecting video when a sensor goes off or a trigger.

But what happens is when that video comes in, a lot of times it's not,

like, doesn't go into your account because you don't have an account.

So they had to search.

I said it's like, it's the equivalent of using a match to find a needle in the

middle of a forest when there's no moon.

it's the fact that they found it is, I mean, just a miracle.

But the reason I say that, Craig, is a lot of times when you look at

stuff, there's metadata on there, date timestamp, you know, when it happened.

What we don't know about this, although it appears to be similar,

uh, you look at the clothing and you look at stuff, it's similar.

and so that's the question.

But again, if let's do a hypothesis and say maybe that's the same person, and

they were standing outside 10 minutes before that 1 47 that we saw them, you

know, approaching with the backpack on, what else does that tell you?

They weren't there for 47 minutes.

They were there for 57 minutes, then almost an hour.

That all that tells me is that person then.

Reinforces what I believe is that their behavior shows that they're

extremely comfortable, that it was less about a burglary and more about

some kind of a targeted operation.

so yeah, we raised more questions, but which is fine.

But at some point we have to start eliminating the impossible.

Like that guy can't be in Tucson, Arizona, and Chicago at the same time.

That's physically impossible.

So at some point, reality has to start taking some chess pieces off the board.

'cause what we wanna do is collapse all these things, test them to failure and

end up with fewer things to focus on.

But the problem with cops, it's like collecting stuff.

Well, you never want to throw a piece of paper away.

You never, you know.

Might be important.

Pretty soon you got 20 boxes of stuff and that's, that's

what, that's the information.

Entropy.

You've got so much stuff in there, you can't process it, so sometimes you

gotta reduce the amount of information you look at, but we don't, the

biggest thing we're missing on that, Craig, is the date and timestamp.

We don't know if it happened after 1 47 or before 1 47.

We don't know if it happened after they left the house and that person now

took off his backpack 'cause he is got somebody in the car controlling Nancy

and he is trying to make sure, you know, they didn't leave anything behind.

Uh, Dennis Rader, the BTK killer, uh, he talked about what he

called his right hand rule.

He'd get done to the crime scene.

What he would do, he'd follow, he'd start on the right hand side and work his way

around to make sure he left nothing there.

We don't know what they were doing, but

one, one of the things that they said will probably solve

this case eventually, who knows?

was the reward, alright?

For a long time, se a couple weeks, maybe more, they had a $50,000 reward,

for any information that seems.

Like a very puny amount for a case of this magnitude.

And then all of a sudden, more recently the family, I guess, uh,

added a million dollar reward, which seemed, you know, like maybe this'll

be the, the key to solving the case.

But even that, uh, doesn't seem to have worked, uh, why

the Puny Award for so long.

And do you have confidence that maybe this million dollar reward might,

be the key to solving the case?

Yeah.

You know, I think part of the issue upfront with the reward the size

it was, is they didn't want to,

stir up a, a bunch of fake tips because if it was too big too soon, I think,

you know, maybe part of their thinking was we would just get a lot of.

Crap in here we have to deal with.

So, but 50,000 of, yeah, considering the notoriety of the case doesn't,

seems like it's not enough, but 50,000 is more than, if you look

at the FBI top 10, it's 25,000.

Now the rewards for justice, you've got other stuff.

US marshals, like this case here, that's only 15,000.

Apparently the marshals don't have the budget.

The FBI does.

So, but, but now, but the, but the language is different now because.

I think the people, the other reason people looked at it,

it's $50,000 from the FBI.

Now there's a little, there's a problem there because.

Let's assume that you have no money, you're a debt.

A hundred thousand, 50,000 would be like a big, a lifeline.

But it says for the, uh, arrest and conviction of somebody, you might

wait three years for that money,

right?

But now, then what?

The family said, it's a million dollars for the return of her body.

We're not, not, we're not talking prosecution now we're talking a million

dollars for the return of their mother.

Which is basically, you know, they, they tell us where the body is.

That's different.

why a million dollars hasn't moved the needle?

I don't know.

there's, reason to believe that some people might think is that this is,

it's, look, it's very tough to get away with the kidnapping anymore.

Uh, the FBI's got it down to an art and science.

You, they, well, they could use crypto guys after nine 11 and

after a bunch of other stuff.

Tracing crypto is not as hard as what you think.

so it can be done.

and so there may be reluctance to do that.

I think what's gonna break the case, it's gonna be somebody

sometime walking along and finding.

Skeletonized remains.

It's gonna be somebody that's finding something in a building.

Yeah.

Uh, I don't know that the, I mean, I looked at

all these cases and sometimes, it's not the reward that does it.

It's a citizen just happens upon it, you know, and turns it in.

Look, Craig, I like you.

You're a great friend, but for a million dollars, dude, I'd

dime you out in a heartbeat.

Wow.

There we go.

We got it on tape.

Don't rob a bank with me, man.

I go down easy.

You gimme a million dollars, like, okay, I love it.

I guess everybody has their price, huh?

Yeah.

So let me ask you, Morgan.

Yeah, go ahead, Dennis.

If you, all of a sudden were handed this case.

Okay, Morgan, here's the case.

You're in charge.

You've got 72 hours to get this thing back on track.

What would you do?

Well, first of all, I'll tell you why.

72 hours.

How do you know?

72 hours is the magic number.

I'd start pushing back right from the start, But I know people, how much

time do you need?

I don't know.

Here's, here's my response.

I've lost my keys.

How long will it take me to find them?

I don't know.

Yeah.

So I think that's the problem you don't wanna do.

'cause if you, if you give, and don't, don't get me wrong, Dennis, I'm

just pushing back in a friendly way.

But my response would be, if you tell me I have to have something done in 72 hours,

which shortcut do you want me to take?

That may affect the case.

Right.

Okay.

All right.

So, you give me the case.

Here's what I would do.

I'm gonna bring in a fresh set of eyes.

People who've never, I want people who don't know squat about this case.

Right.

And we're gonna do what I said.

We're gonna, we're gonna, we're not just gonna re rehabilitate the narrative.

We're gonna dismantle everything.

Forget what the news says.

Forget what's out there.

We're gonna dismantle this case and start.

And it's more than just putting a fresh set of eyes.

Like in a cold case, we're gonna make use of advanced technology.

We're gonna start feeding documents into a system.

We're gonna start, we're gonna have it start doing the brain work for us, right?

And what we're gonna do is start from ground one.

There's another technique too.

Have you guys ever heard of the technique called Winthroping?

No.

So it was actually developed by, I had some friends in New

Scotland Yard who taught this to me.

The, new Scotland yard and MI six developed this technique when they

were doing operations against the IRA and what they would be looking

for in the Royal Ulster Constabulary.

They'd be looking for where, where.

Weapon caches were, and so rather than thinking about how a cop

would think, you have to think how would an IRA operative think?

Or how would a spy think?

Right?

So Winthrop is putting your eyes in there.

So the other thing I would do is I would get people in

there, it's like red teaming.

When you, you have an opposing force, you know, red teaming.

I would get somebody in there that says.

You think we, I I'd reenact the whole thing.

'cause you, what you wanna do is you wanna test time.

'cause we have videos of the car being over here a mile or two miles away.

Somebody saw a car going by.

Right?

We wanna test all of these things, test them for time, for space, for reality.

If it, if it, violates the laws of physics and violates reality.

The first thing you do is you get rid of it.

You don't keep it.

That's the problem with entropy.

You put too much in there.

So I would start getting rid of stuff.

And it's Darwinism, right?

Sometimes you gotta thin the herd and only the S strong survive.

Only the strongest hypothesis survive.

And I would rebuild the case from the ground up, and I would say it's

gonna take as long as it takes.

We understand the importance of it, but um, you can, you can get

it right or you can get it fast.

Which one do you want?

Right, That's, great.

Yeah.

That's, uh,

Hey, Dennis, uh,

how do we get you in charge?

Morgan?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Dennis and Bill.

Uh, remember

that, remember that million dollars?

There

you go.

That's a good start, huh?

But I would say this, I, I mean, Morgan and I haven't spoken

in a while and I had forgotten his brilliance, his passion, please.

Um, his, his ability to articulate, you know, uh, things that are

very complex, Thanks to people like Morgan of technology, law

enforcement is gonna advance to places that we've never been before.

And that excites me because people say, you know, we, we now have fewer officers.

How are we gonna do more with less?

And I think Morgan is telling us it's possible.

And it's here.

And, uh, thanks to people like Morgan and, and the technology, uh,

experts like him, um, we're, we're doing okay in law enforcement and

I think this place is gonna be a lot safer in the, in the future.

Well, hey, Craig, just to build on your point real quick, a lot

of people don't realize compared to nine 11, New York City has what, 10, 15,000

fewer officers than they did on nine 11,

right?

Yeah.

It's crazy, but

I

mean, we're doing well.

Well, what you've talked about today is exciting.

I mean, I, we'd love to have you back and, talk more about it.

I mean, the national

Well here, Dennis, I'm gonna give you the offer, we'll

put it out to everybody listening.

I told you my project, I talked to Craig about this.

I wanna put together a project of all unsolved line-of-duty deaths, right?

I wanna make the project on the National Center.

I want to, we'll cooperate with you guys.

I want to get the word out because I want people to get into this system.

Guys, no money.

It doesn't cost you anything.

It costs you about five minutes to set up an account and put in five

to six locations that are relevant in your life, and then guess what?

You sit back and wait for the magic to happen.

So, I mean, that would be one thing I would do immediately with you guys

that could have, first of all, it speaks to all of our hearts, right?

It speaks to my, fortunately my friend is solved, they made the arrest.

But, uh, all of those unsolved cases, I wanna, I wanna either a, I want a

clearance or I want an arrest in all of these cases that are still unsolved.

So how do people get involved?

OpenUnsolved.org.

There is a law enforcement side.

There is a citizen side.

Go to the citizen side, create an account.

It's very simple.

It'll say, you know, create an account.

you, your email.

We don't collect any personal information.

In other words, Dennis, its you create an account.

We just need an email so we know where to email tips to you at.

And that's really it, right?

No phone number, no date of birth, no credit card, no social, nothing.

We don't need anything from you.

Got it.

And I want people to understand too, we keep that information

private that is never shared with law enforcement, never shared.

It's like Crime stoppers.

Can you imagine Crime Stoppers having caller id?

An anonymous caller calls up and you call 'em back and say, Hey,

I forgot to ask you one question.

Uhhuh.

Yeah.

Right.

And I've, but I've actually had cops say, well, could they?

I said, no.

Look, I was a cop.

I ran the crime stopper's phone on my desk.

I no way.

I understand the value of it.

the, thing that would kill our program off faster than anything

else is for the public to under, for the public to believe or find

out that we're sharing information, their information, absolutely.

With law enforcement.

So there is an absolute bright line down the middle.

There's will never be.

And now if we're served legal process and says, you're compelled to provide this.

Only to the extent possible, and we'll fight that because that's

the only way this system works.

It's built on trust, and if you don't have the trust of the public.

You know, and this is what we've dealt with in law enforcement

for a long time, right.

I'm speaking to the choir here.

The public, it's PE in principles of policing, the PO public

have to believe in the police.

Absolutely.

And the police are the public.

And the public or the police.

Right.

We're both doing the same job.

Just one of us gets paid to give full time and attention to duties

which are incumbent upon everybody.

So this is a partnership between the police and the

public to solve a huge problem.

Oh, by the way, one quick stat.

This is the other thing that drives it home.

We're all paying a crime tax.

How, if I ask you what is the cost of crime each year to the us and

that means the cost of homicides, the cost of kidnappings, the cost of

families, victims, lost wages, funeral expenses, courts, corrections, law

enforcement budgets, I mean everything.

If you replacing stolen property, putting a bolt on a door 'cause you got broken

into, what is the cost of crime each year?

Billions.

Pretty sub substantial.

If our, if the cost of crime were a GDP, it would be the

fourth largest country in the world.

The United States pays $5.7 trillion a year in a crime tax,

5.7 trillion trillion

5.7.

I've got the, I've talked to the professor who did the study, it's

called the aggregate cost of crime.

Yeah.

Um, 5.7 trillion every homicide.

On average costs, the costs society $10.9 million.

When you look at 17,000 homicides a year, which is what we've been averaging

up to lately, the cost of homicides is more than the combined budgets.

Just homicides alone is more than the combined budget of all federal,

tribal, state, and local law enforcement agencies in the United States.

Wow, you're, that's staggering.

That's just homicides.

And we have 300,000 unsolved homicides.

Wow.

Great.

Well, we gotta do better to stop those murders.

That's the key.

Yeah.

but it's getting better, Greg.

Let me, pile on that point.

I, I, I'm not being political.

A lot of people talk about Trump, whatever, but I will tell you, how do you.

How do you not appreciate the fact is that we have the lowest

homicide rate in 125 years.

How many people do not have to?

I've made that knock on the door with both accidents and murders.

How many people do not have to get knock on that door to be delivered?

The worst news they've ever gonna receive in their life?

And how much has that saved society, not just emotionally, but financially, right?

We're paying less for crime because there's less crime.

and so, I mean, just for me, the fact that we have the lowest homicide

rate, that's a good place to start.

and we, we should take advantage of it.

That's why we're trying to, how can we help keep that down?

How can we help solve some of these unsolved cases and

how can we help give people.

A way to part how, like how do you get involved without being involved?

This is a way for citizens to get involved without being involved.

I don't have to be involved in the case.

I like

that.

And lemme tell you, victims families all the time say we wanna do something, but

we feel like we're getting in the way.

Or the cops don't want us there.

What can we do?

They can hand out flyers all they want, but that doesn't scale, right?

This helps you scale.

Right.

You know, you tell three people, it's like, it's like Amway.

If you remember the days of Amway.

Craig, if you get three and those three people get three, we got 27.

Pretty soon we're all retired.

Living on a beach.

Right.

But that's the network effect.

tell people, the more dots we have in a system, the more dots we can connect.

Great point.

Yeah.

Morgan.

Thank you Dennis.

Yeah, I, I, we could go on and on and, uh, I know we, we, we, uh, we will try

to have you back because there's so much to talk about, but thank you for today.

This has been very informative, not just about Guthrie, but uh,

Billy ask about, what about you?

And I'm glad we got that out there.

'cause the work you're doing is very important.

And it's, gonna make a difference.

It probably already has and it will continue, so

I hope so.

And that's what I do.

I, I've got a Substack and Craig alluded to it earlier and I'm, I'm glad to share.

And

what's your

publication guys?

What's

your public?

It's called CrimeReconstructed.substack.com.

And that's where I do, it's, it's basically, actually, I'm working on a

book, but the title informs what it is.

It's called Crime Reconstructed Rebuilding Enduring Cold Cases Through First

Principles and Modern Intelligence.

This is where.

This is where we strip away.

It's not true crime.

If you guys are coming for true crime and all the breathless stuff, that's not me.

I'm not doing this for clickbait, right?

We're not.

We're not the murder monetizing media.

This is about how do we, train people to recognize narratives, to discount

them, to realize, to get to the heart of the matter and strip away everything

right and rebuild it from the ground up.

Say the name,

appreciate it.

Say the name of your substack again.

Crime reconstructed.

Crime reconstructed.

Okay.

I'm definitely gonna put it on my favorites list.

And, uh,

I've already subscribed.

Yeah.

And I, and I wanna to, uh, remind our listeners, our viewers, our

audience, if you enjoyed hearing anything Morgan had to say today, make a comment.

Okay.

We love your comments and if you disagree with Morgan.

he's hard to disagree with.

'cause this dude has all, oh

no, look, first Amendment baby.

Tell me what you don't like.

I'm more than happy to, I take constructive criticism all the time.

Well, let's hear it guys.

We would love to hear some because he, he said a lot of important things

today, not just about the Guthrie case, but about the future of where he's

trying to take these unsolved cases.

So let's comment on this.

Hit.

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Thanks again, Morgan Wright.

This is, uh, the end of this episode of Con of Oh boy.

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