In today's episode, we're delighted to welcome on James Luckhurst from Blue Lights Aware. Welcome, James.

Thank you so much.

Good afternoon, James. Nice to see you here.

Well, thank you very much for having me. It's a great pleasure.

We invited you on today to talk about Blue Light Aware because back in December you were sharing some daily videos on your social media, helping drivers understand a bit more about what they should do when there's emergency service vehicles behind them or in the vicinity while they're driving. And it just struck me that This is something that people do get really nervous and anxious about, about what to do, where are the sirens coming from, where are the lights coming from, what do I do? So we thought you'd be a great guest to come on and tell us a bit more about Blue Light Aware, um, what your aim is.

course, I'm very happy to do that. And I'll tell you a little bit about Blue Light Away's history. It was in 2009. I was with a colleague at a conference which was called the National Blue Light Users Conference. That was for training staff from fire brigades and police and ambulance. They were the ones responsible for Trying to get consistent standards in emergency response driving, but of course, if you look at the whole area of blue light driving, you've got the components that they can control because they can, issue the certificates and check the standards of the drivers who are working for them, whether they're in the fire, the police, the ambulance or any, any other of the services that might be entitled to use blue lights. But the bit that they can't control is, is us and, and the way we react. But with careful understanding a bit of give and take and an appreciation, I suppose, of the other person's needs. It makes it so much easier. In 2009, there was a call saying, Oh, wouldn't it be great if we could kind of make some kind of video and tell people more. So I foolishly put my hand up and said, I'll find the money. I'll make the video. If you guys will help us do the filming. And we got support straight away from police and fire in Sussex ambulance in Cheshire. And also police, fire and ambulance in the southwest in Plymouth, Cornwall and Devon. And so we were able to create a quite a decent five, six minute video covering the main areas in that video. And the most important thing about it was that we ensured that all the driving school teams were playing it to their emergency response drivers as well. So you and I could watch it and think, okay, that's what I do. When there's a double white line, or that's what I do at traffic lights and and by showing it and making sure that the, the emergency service drivers were seeing what we were being asked to do, there was a sense of of better collaboration. And I think there was research done 4 or 5 years ago that suggested that there were better degrees of understanding and more willingness to assist from members of the public. Simply because they understood what they were being asked to do.

I'm just sitting here listening and thinking, so actually to add into that, we could really do with driving instructors, making sure that that video is played to all of their students as well. So either through their social media or on a lesson so that we're sort of adding it in so that all new drivers. Get to see this as well,

Well, I think that, we've had terrific support from driving instructors and they've been really, you know, the ones we've talked to are dedicated, committed and really want their students to be safe throughout a lifetime of driving. The passion that they've shown is just great. You know, it really inspires you, wants you to, makes you want to, to help. So, you know, thank you to driving instructors. What I would say, of course, is that 2009 was quite a long time ago. And there has been a major overhaul of Blue Light Aware. I think by, by the time we did the overhaul in 2019. The YouTube main video had been seen over a million times, but the number of downloads by the different services to show at open days or on training courses or show to companies was massive. So, you know, we really think that there was a really good, big audience that would have benefited from that. But you have to keep it. You know, current and fit for modern day purpose. There's lots of different vehicles on the roads now. There might have been a few little rule changes. So in about 2020, we, we, we did a refresh and the way people kind of use videos and online. Changed a lot during that time as well. You know, we all like things much quicker. Don't we might just one little 15 seconds. We don't want to sit down for five minutes and watch something. So we separated it out. And if you think of all the, the areas where it can confuse you, if there's an emergency vehicle coming, like I've mentioned, traffic lights. What about on a smart motorway where there might not be a hard shoulder? You know, a rural road where there's a double white line. You know, why, why is an emergency service vehicle suddenly, why is it turned its siren off and pulling back? Um, roundabouts and, and just little tips like, you know, actually, if you've just let one, one emergency vehicle through. Guess what? There might be more than one coming because it's likely that they're going to, you know, there might be one more than one required at an incident. So lots of just general practical tips, but all in little short digestible chunks that just one topic at a time. And in fact, we've just drawn up a short list of four or five others that we'll be launching later this year. So we're adding to the, to the portfolio, but yeah, well, so it's started up with one. Good long video, but now it's, it's chopped up a little bit. And, uh, yeah, I think we're really pleased with how it is received and hopefully it will be helpful to someone who is a little wary, a little nervous, doesn't want to do the wrong thing, wants to help, but needs to know how to help.

remember the original video and it was fantastic, you know, it really was, it was brilliant. But I think the way it's evolved now is just so much better for the audience. We're trying to aim it at. And I think those bite sized chunks of videos that we've got now just really hit home and people can cherry pick which ones they want to watch, can't they?

Exactly. And, and the thing that is really important from our point of view is that they are. checked as fit for purpose, and I only did this about 10 days ago with a senior driver trainer from the fire brigade, who sits on the National Fire Chiefs Council in response driving. So we sat and went through all of them. Is this right? Anything changed? Anything need a tweak? What do you suggest? And so, you know, we have a little snag list just for the, for the next iteration of these videos and, um, some suggestions that what might be helpful if we are going to add to the, uh, to the portfolio. So it is great to have the support I've mentioned from the driving instructors, but, you know, the services themselves are really appreciative.

So as a driving instructor, my students As soon as I hear a siren, it's panic. It's like, where is it? What's happening? What's going on? Where's that coming from? And is there different types of siren for different types of vehicles or services? So we would know if it was an ambulance, we would know whether or not it was a police car or, whatever it might be.

No, the, there are different. Siren notes for different traffic situations. So typically, if you're driving along, you know, a rural a road, you might hear that long sign. This is when that emergency vehicle is perhaps coming close to an area where there's a bit of congestion or up to a junction. They will switch from that to what they call the Yelp. I think that's the technical term for so they'll go from that to the. Um, which is, is much more penetrative in a short, short range. So, um, you will, you will know that it's much closer. Um, there are other little, some, some vehicles have what they call a bull horn, and, um, that will be as an, if nothing else is working, that might get out of the way. So, but generally speaking, the services will have similar siren notes. And so you won't be able to, you know, the, the, the sound of the siren won't tell you what vehicle is coming generally, but I mean, you said the word panic there, but. The first time you hear, hopefully it will be still some way off. Sometimes it's not the case because sometimes you'll be in a queue of traffic and that police car behind you suddenly gets called to an emergency and it will need to get on its way and, you know, away from you. And so it will be, it might make you jump. But what I'd suggest is. Everything you said is right, but not just don't see it as panic, see it as part of your ongoing dynamic risk assessment. So here you are looking, listening, assessing what's going on all around you. Mostly visual, but an audio clue is is is an approaching siren. Or is it approaching? Are we just hearing? So the first we hear of the siren, we can start to plan. And there's naturally, generally not very much we need to do. If we are sure that there's something coming, an emergency vehicle, pull over, give it room, and, and think about where you're pulling over. Don't stop, you know, opposite a traffic island or on a pedestrian crossing. Don't stop in the middle of a junction. Just, But think as normally you can buy sort of a bit of a, anticipation, you can build it into your plan rather than feel that you're being forced into doing something that feels wrong and that angers other people and doesn't actually end up helping the emergency vehicle. So that's what I'd say, you know, early decisions and early kind of working out what to do and generally. Once you have visual contact with the emergency vehicle, its position will kind of tell you what it's wanting to do. It's likely if it's safe to be, you know, nicely out into the road. So, you know, let me pass, please. Can you give me some room? If it wants, if it's on a motorway where, as I mentioned, there might be a blockage to the hard shoulder or no hard shoulder, an emergency vehicle is likely to try to create. What they call an emergency corridor in front of it. So imagine 3 lanes of the motorway lane 1, the inside lane, probably not much happens, but in between lane 2 and 3 is where the emergency vehicle will attempt to go. So you get that kind of, um, Zipping effect. So the, the cars and trucks and everything in in the middle lane will point towards the inside lane, whereas the vehicles in the outside lane will point into the central reservation and that that kind of zip effect will create enough room for the emergency vehicle to go down between the two lanes. And that's made clear by the position of the emergency vehicle. And so, you know, looking for those clues, hearing it and then seeing it and where it, where it is kind of positioning itself are really useful clues.

Cool. I think that was one of the great things when I looked at the videos in December was that that's what the videos show, isn't it? It shows you those clues to look out for. So it just gives you that, ah, okay, that makes sense. Because a lot of it does make sense, actually. But of course, if you've not experienced it before, then you don't know what you're looking for. So yeah, I thought that, thought the videos did a great job of giving those clues. And that's part of raising that awareness, isn't it? You know, the first time, if someone doesn't know, it can be quite panicky or stressful. But once you've, you've spoken about it and you've, you've actually gone through and practiced that and had it in real life even, sometimes it's like, oh right, okay, that makes so much more sense now. But mum and dad have probably never had this, and they've probably told them one thing, and, you know, now they're in the lessons doing it themselves, it's like we're telling them something else. And it's almost like mixed, mixed messages coming across.

I think it's just, you know, anticipate and, and plan. And, and that really cuts down the possibility of, of panicking. And if there, if there isn't any space. Then you can't do anything. And this is really important. An emergency driver is told not to expect us to break the law, to let them through. Let them break the law. Let them, well, they're not breaking them. They have the exemptions, of course, to do certain things. They can go through a red traffic signal. They can go the wrong side of a keep left Island and they can exceed the speed limits. We can't, if we go, we know. Take, for example, in a town center and there's an emergency vehicle coming, they will tend to go into the bus lanes because they can explain their actions afterwards. If, if, if I move into a bus lane to make way for a fire engine, then it's unlikely I'll get very far explaining to the council what I was trying to do. And I'll just have to pay the fine. And if I go up on the curb, damage a tire in doing so, you know, I'm not going to get compensation from the council because I shouldn't have gone up in the curb in the first place. It's up to the emergency vehicle to find its way around. Um, you, of course, there have to be real world situations that, you know, it's, it's, it's all fine in theory, isn't it? Sometimes. If you've got a police car responding fast and hard behind you, and there is no other way through you, you have to make a decision for yourself. Actually, I'm going to look at an idiot just by sitting here. It's quiet. The junction is clear. I have to go through this. traffic light because I don't know why it wants me to do it. It's none of my business why, but it wouldn't be wanting me to if it wasn't important. And so, you know, there's things like that to think about, but no one would ever advocate you break the law to, to assist an emergency vehicle.

Yeah, and that's, that's the message we get across. It's always like, if I was sitting at a red light and a lamblance came up behind me, would I have to go for a red light? Which opens up a whole new set of questions for me as an instructor, because it's, it's like, well, where else could they go? Oh, they could go round me. And it's, it's, it's, so again, it's just that raising awareness. Like you said, anticipate and plan. You might, if you see it early enough, even wait further back, won't you, to allow that space for them to go through.

Yeah, and, and the also important the, the, the, the ambulance shouldn't, if it's on a blue light journey, it's not going to go into a line of traffic and then start trying to bully the traffic out of the way it's already going to be on the other side of the road, making slow progress, but progress nonetheless past the rest of us. So we're not inconvenienced in the slightest in the queue of traffic. We may just need to wait as it's gone around us. But we're not doing anything illegal and not being forced to, you know, do anything that we would find difficult or uncomfortable or dangerous.

Yeah, I think that's so valuable. It's that sort of myth busting, isn't it? Because I think there are a lot of myths out there saying, oh, you must do this, you must do that, you must do the other. So yeah, myth busting. So James, potentially you've been on? Blue lights and, in the cars or in the response vehicles, how have you found that actually being in one of them if you have? Because I'm always interested to hear people's view of what they see while they're driving in that vehicle, because we don't normally get that chance, do we?

Now, I have had that chance. I trained with the South Central Ambulance Service in response driving and, um, and even as I approach the age of 60, I'm still a special constable. So I serve with my local police force in, in roads policing. So I do have, um, there are times when, when we are traveling on, on blue lights, generally speaking, 90 percent of drivers, Are are helpful and it's all, you know, it's making sure that you give them the information that they need by the position of the vehicle. Um, and making it quite clear where we, as the emergency vehicle need to go. Sometimes people are oblivious. Now, that may be because. I don't know, they could be hard of hearing, they could have loud music on, they could be, you know, could have headphones on or, or on a telephone call that's, you know, hands free or whatever, you know, and where they're distracted and so they can't process the information that's apparent to everybody else who's kind of fully in, in the driving task. So, and some will just, you know, choose to be awkward, but very, very few., The training you get as a blue light driver is you have to think, well, any driver you've got to think for everybody else. And I think the key thing is that you never. Never assume that anyone will do what you want them to do. But that's the case for any driving, isn't it? And it's just, um, with, with blue light driving, you're seeing much further down the road. You're, you're kind of making a plan and you've got an idea, this junction, next junction, or how you're going to deal with what's, what's happening a mile down the road at the same time as being acutely aware of everything that's happening right on the nose. And, I suppose another really important thing is that blue light vehicles are not all the same size. So, you know, a police motorbike will get through a gap that a fire engine won't a fire engine might need you to do more maneuvering than the police car, but simply because of its size. So that's that's quite an important thing. Just as for the when you're working out where to stop. And how much space to give because once you see what the vehicle is, you can have a better idea. Are you giving them enough space?

And I suppose the takeaway for me already is, look out for those clues, you know, they, that anticipating and planning while you're driving is, is, is almost constant. You know, that's what we do as drivers is, is doing that. But when you notice something, it's knowing what to look for. What's that vehicle behind us or even in front of us to the sides doing, wherever they positioned. What are they telling me? What does he want to do? You know, what's he showing me? And I think that's a really good sort of like thought process and takeaway for me. Yeah, and before you know what it is and where it's coming from, if you get those clues of I can hear something, it may be coming my way. It's just making sure that you've got space, isn't it, because you can't go wrong by making sure that you have space in front of you, behind you, because then if you do need to position yourself. You've got more opportunity, haven't you? Yeah.

definitely. Tires and tarmac. That's what we like. Bit of space in front. Um, you just never know when it might come in handy.

Yeah. Yeah. And that goes almost back to when you're first lessons, isn't it? When you're just dealing with that moving off and stopping and stopping and starting and traffic. It's, it's, it's the reason behind what we do, isn't there? So for different situations, so yeah. Lovely.

I would say, of course, is that all of the things that the Blue Light Aware Resource advocates are in the Highway Code. The Highway Code doesn't allocate a lot of space to blue light driving and how to deal with blue light vehicles. But, you know, the advice. On offer through the videos is all compliant with with highway code. So that's quite important.

So before we tell people where they can find Blue Light Aware, was there anything, when we invited you on, was there anything that you thought, oh, I'd really, I hope they ask me this, or I'd really like to get a particular message across. Is there anything that we haven't covered so far?

No, I think what I'd just reiterate that the emergency drivers will not expect you to break the law or take any risks in helping them out. And, and 99 percent of the time, they will not be on your back pushing you through really, really not. And they understand that you're trying to be helpful. And it's, you know, it's as far as possible, you know, they like to try and see it as a collaborative effort. You know, thanks very much. You might get a wave of the hand or a toot of the horn. You know, it's a busy working environment in a, in a blue light vehicle going to, you know. We don't know what, um, you know, it could be a very nasty incident and they're kind of mentally getting ready for, for what they have to deal with because, you know, it's not just the driving, is it? The driving is purely the, the, the transport for them to get from somewhere to then, you know, put in their professional, um, input to, to save a life or to stop a crime or, you know, there's so many reasons that they would turn on blue lights. Um, but they do appreciate You know, the efforts that we can make to make their journeys that little bit safer and possibly a few seconds quicker that might end up saving a life.

Lovely. And where do people find the videos?

I would just go onto the internet and put Blue Light Aware and out it will come. And the website is bluelightaware. org. uk I think. But, but, you know, if just put in Blue Light Aware and it should be right there.

Lovely. And you've got all the normal social media channels so people can search on there as well on their preferred channel. And they are great. That is, you know, I've watched them, we've shared them. Yeah. They are a valuable source of information. Yeah, and I recommend whether you're whether you're, you know, for anxious and nervous drivers, but also for any driver. So, you know, particularly if you've been driving a while, it might be a really good refresh to have a look and think, Oh, okay. I've forgotten that or I didn't know that or so just fill in any gaps in knowledge and information by having a quick watch.

Thank you.

Thank you very much, James. Thank you for giving up your time this afternoon and coming on and talking about it.

It was a genuine pleasure. Thank you for having me.

Thank you, James.