andrea (00:00)

There are so many divorce myths out there. And the problem with a myth is that they're really easy to believe. And if you believe something,

Not only are you gonna have an unrealistic expectation, but you're probably gonna overspend on your divorce. So today we are debunking some myths on

Morgan Stogsdill (00:16)

you

andrea (00:16)

how not to suck at divorce.

Color me foolish. I recorded an episode earlier this week that was our mini episode that went live on Wednesday. And it was all about if your co-parent does something that totally doesn't suck, you should thank them and be kind to them. And do you know what the universe did to me after that?

Morgan Stogsdill (01:14)

I can only imagine. Give it to me.

andrea (01:16)

let's just say my co-parenting relationship has now tanked since I went and opened my big mouth and said, you guys, let's all just be nice and hold hands and like love your fellow man. So fuck. So now I'm not gonna say anything anymore. because that's what I get for being nice.

Morgan Stogsdill (01:34)

it bit you in the butt or somewhere else.

andrea (01:37)

It I don't know where else you're referring to, but yeah, it bit me. It bit me somewhere. But you, on the other hand, you look like lawyer Barbie today. I don't know what is happening, but you are clearly not doing your makeup in the dark anymore because you look absolutely amazing.

Morgan Stogsdill (01:59)

I will take that compliment because I need it. was talking to you, we were texting this morning on my way into the office and just kind of checking in, I hadn't heard from Andrea and I was like, is everything good? Because I haven't heard from you in a while. And we both realized that we're kind of both swimming right now, drowning in different things, family, work, just life in general.

And you know I realized, Andrea, is the more that you drown in things, and this is what our listeners are going through when they're in a divorce, you almost feel manic. Like you feel, like for me, when I'm really, really busy and really, really stressed, it's like I can accomplish 340 tasks in one day. It's like I'm a manic person getting things done. But then on a normal day, when I'm not crazy stressed, it's like the day won't.

end it's like I get three things done so I don't know if that maybe is like a silver lining of some sort I'm gonna take it as one because you know I'm the glass half full kind of a girl but I don't know what you think

andrea (02:59)

I think that it's like the harder that our arms and legs doggy paddle, it's like we're revving our whole body up and it's having some sort of an impact on our brain. you mentioned it the other day when we did an episode about people being too nice and how that can really be a problem for some people, and that sometimes as attorneys, you like it when clients enter that I am angry phase because they get more done when they're angry.

So maybe

Morgan Stogsdill (03:25)

you

andrea (03:27)

there's something to be said about survival mode and us working harder. I don't know. I do think that for me at least, I don't know that I do my best work

Morgan Stogsdill (03:38)

you

andrea (03:39)

when I'm in survival mode. I think I'm working hard, but I don't know that it's like my smartest real zone of genius. And on that note, a lot of people talk about not being in their zone of genius.

Are buying into things about divorce that are not true. And it's because they're out there, they're everywhere. There's so many misconceptions, so many divorce myths that I think need

Morgan Stogsdill (04:05)

you

andrea (04:06)

to be busted once and for all. So let me kick off this conversation. my God, I sound like we're in corporate America. I'm gonna kick off this call. I'm gonna kick off this Teams meeting

andrea (04:18)

let's talk about the divorce myth that the best practice is for your attorney to not be friendly with opposing counsel.

andrea (04:28)

Our listeners all know, because we talk about it all the time, that you want the attorneys to get along. But going deeper than that,

Getting along means it's okay

Morgan Stogsdill (04:39)

you

andrea (04:40)

if they're going out to lunch together. That is something that I really think that people it really rubs people the wrong way. So let's talk about it.

Morgan Stogsdill (04:48)

I couldn't agree more. Going out to lunch, grabbing a drink, just meeting in the hallway, you knock so much stuff out with opposing counsel. And if you are friendly with opposing counsel because you want to get lunch with them or you want to talk about family or life outside of work, it's only going to generally affect you in a positive way.

it's going to be more amicable. I will give an example. I had a mediation with somebody I really respect on the other side, really like this person. It's a person that I would go out to lunch or drinks or take a walk with or whatever. And we had different positions in the mediation, but the mediation ran way faster because we could say what we wanted to say without causing a huge fight. The second thing

andrea (05:32)

Mm-hmm.

Morgan Stogsdill (05:32)

is we were respectful. So I could say, no, I'm not.

going to do this, my client's not going to do that and here's why. And instead of taking a really hard line response, because it's someone I'm friendly with, they're giving me the benefit of the doubt. And there's listening to my position with a potentially a different kind of ear than somebody who is an adversary and a true adversary.

andrea (05:55)

if you had two people who are friends trying to solve a problem, aren't they gonna solve a problem faster than two people who don't get along very well? That doesn't mean that your attorney is not gonna

Push for what you want. It pe it and I get why people would see that because they're like, well, they're not gonna push for me because they're out sharing a cob salad with so-and-so, but it's actually the opposite.

Morgan Stogsdill (06:21)

It's totally the opposite. And in fact, where you're saving money and where people I think get like a little hesitant, like, ooh, they're in cahoots or something like that. I know if I am friendly, let's just call it with Sarah, an attorney on the other side, then I know.

that when I go into a mediation setting and I'm trying to settle your case or I'm trying to settle your case over the phone, I don't have to start with the most ridiculous position to try to get all the way down to where you would settle. I can skip one or two steps there because they know me, they know my positions, and I don't need to posture like I would if it was somebody that was a complete adversary or somebody I just couldn't trust and didn't like.

andrea (07:03)

Yeah, and that lack of posturing is only gonna save your client money.

Right. Yeah.

Morgan Stogsdill (07:08)

Exactly. Well said.

That's it. Point blank. And I think too many people take it the wrong way. they're in cahoots. You know, they're out in the hallway talking to each other or my lawyer let it slip that they had lunch and they worked out a few things. No, look at it a different way from a different lens. Because if you had somebody on the other side that was absolutely belligerent, your pocketbook would be money would be flying out the door.

andrea (07:32)

There goes that term, the pocketbook. You and my dead grandmother love their pocketbooks.

Morgan Stogsdill (07:39)

Well, that's why I said it. That's why I said it.

andrea (07:41)

channeling Rhoda Rappaport. Now she's gonna come and haunt me tonight, which you know would really add to my week. Okay, I got another myth that I'm gonna bust for all of you. Nine times out of ten, your case is not going to trial.

That rarely happens. Tell us more, Morgan.

Morgan Stogsdill (07:59)

Well, in the divorce process, remember, if you can't agree, there's a lot of mini issues that have to be dealt with before you get to a full blown trial.

When we're talking to Andrew and I right now, we're focusing on a full blown trial. It's every issue in the entire case coming to a culmination in front of a judge. So the reality is, I would say 5 % or less of my cases actually get to a full blown trial. Why? Because it's expensive. It's awful. And you're handing over the keys to your life in a judge's hands.

that doesn't know you, doesn't know your family, and doesn't know your ex. So if you can settle it before then, it's the way to go in alternate dispute resolutions, mediation, whatever way you can do it. Generally settling out of court is the best way to go.

andrea (08:45)

And just to give all the listeners a frame of reference, Morgan, you just said that 5% of your cases. Well, all of your cases are very high net worth cases. So if we're looking at the gen pop of divorce cases here, that really does make it a very tiny percentage of general divorce cases that are actually going to have a full-blown trial. So don't build up that expectation in your head.

You might have a hearing. A hearing is not a trial.

Morgan Stogsdill (09:17)

the only time that my cases really get to a trial, it's when one side is just so belligerent, there is no talking to them. And usually we have expended every avenue possible before getting there. I'm talking numerous mediation sessions, numerous experts on the case. And there's just one side that's just digging in and you can't get around it because

I will say that there's this misconception out there where people think that if they get before the judge, the judge is gonna hear my side of the story, they're gonna agree with me. They are going to just say, Andrea, you are so right. I'm so glad you told me that. I didn't hear your lawyer argue it 10 times before you told me that. You are the winner, they are the loser. And here's the thing, you're never going to get that vindication. You're never going to get the story out the exact way you want it out.

and the judge usually is not going to give you a gold star. And so you go through this whole trial process, it feels horrible. And at the end of the day, you walk away so much lighter in your pocketbook, or we should say Rhoda Rappaport's pocketbook, and you're just pissed. You don't feel like you won anything. You feel like you lost, even if you won. Because I've had cases that have gone the long haul. They've gone for a month or two for trial, and we've won. But ultimately, the client lost.

andrea (10:35)

Judges don't have gold stars. There are no gold stars to give. Judges are not third grade teachers. They're not gonna give you a happy face sticker on your divorce decree, So don't expect that a judge is gonna say, Good job, kiddo. You're doing this. Keep going. Good work.

They don't wanna be messed with. They're actually annoyed that

Morgan Stogsdill (10:57)

you

andrea (10:57)

now your case has come before them. So if your case is before a judge, everybody is probably gonna get some kind of slap on the wrist.

Morgan Stogsdill (11:06)

Agreed. Can I do the next myth because this one's bothering me.

andrea (11:09)

Mm.

Morgan Stogsdill (11:10)

Are you ready?

andrea (11:10)

No, go ahead. What's gonna hap what what's about to happen? What part of our world are you blowing up?

Morgan Stogsdill (11:15)

All right, unpopular opinion. You should or you need an Instagram coach. You should get one or you need one because they're all over Instagram selling hardcore their services and kind of they're, you they do it in a good way where their marketing is well done and they're hitting on nerves. They're hitting on the issues that you're dealing with. Those people, that's a myth. You do not need those.

You need to go through your lawyer and you need to only have a coach if your lawyer is on board and the coach has credentials. That's where Instagram coaches fail generally.

andrea (11:50)

you're talking about a divorce coach. When you first said Instagram coach, I thought you meant coaches to like help you succeed on Instagram. I'm like, what are we talking about here? But yeah, you dinged my buzzer. You know how I feel about divorce coaches. Unless an attorney says, this is what I want you to do. Don't do it.

Morgan Stogsdill (12:12)

In the last two years or two and a half years, I want to say with my busy practice, I have used coaches two times, twice in two cases. And I have hundreds of cases that have gone through in the last two and a half years, two times. So before you start adding all these people onto your team that have extra costs and are selling you a bill of goods, you got to talk to your lawyer and you have to make sure these people are credentialed and that you need it.

Sometimes those cases, that's the thing is you don't always need it. It's just an extra person on the billing and also an extra person that has potentially an extra opinion that might not get

andrea (12:45)

Yeah.

Morgan Stogsdill (12:46)

your case settled quickly.

andrea (12:47)

And to be fair, everybody, Morgan does not practice collaborative law. So if you are going through a truly collaborative divorce where a coach is part of that equation, then we're not talking to you. Then your attorney has recommended that you use this coach because that's part of your process. We are talking about people who are not doing a collaborative divorce and they scroll on Instagram at three o'clock in the morning and they see somebody.

hop into their feed who's like, hey girl, are you struggling with this and this? Well for the low, low price of, I can work with you one-on-one and I will help you conquer this and you will thrive and be alive. And by the way, try these vitamins.

It's not the coaching in and of itself that's bad. It's people who do not have real training or real credentials to back what they're saying. That's what's bad. Okay. So don't get it twisted here. We're not coming out here and saying all coaches are harmful to you. We are saying that having that you paying somebody else to give you a legal strategy is going to damage your case.

Unless your attorney says, yeah, bring Mallory on board. Sure, Mallory looks like she's been through a few divorces herself and she's got about 12 cats and a healthy collection of vanilla scented candles. Yeah.

Morgan Stogsdill (14:15)

I was gonna say plants.

andrea (14:16)

and plants. Yes, I'm sure Mallory is a real horticulturist. yeah, let's bring Mallory in. But if your attorney says, no, I wouldn't do that.

Morgan Stogsdill (14:27)

did you just say Mallory is a hoarder, culturist?

andrea (14:30)

Horda, isn't that the word? Holder ho hota. When they like plants.

Morgan Stogsdill (14:34)

Horda-cultress, not Horder-cultress. So she's a hoarder and a horticulturist.

andrea (14:40)

Yeah, she's lots of them. Plants everywhere. I'm gonna get a coach to help me through this conversation.

andrea (14:47)

Let's keep pissing people off. The next myth: You are the most important person to your divorce attorney, and your divorced attorney should always get back to you immediately.

Morgan Stogsdill (15:00)

ouch, right? Like that's a really hard truth that you just threw out there

And you're right. You know, most good lawyers have a full book of business and they're constantly managing priority lists of what case needs the most attention.

andrea (15:16)

Why do we have triage in an ER?

Morgan Stogsdill (15:18)

Fair.

andrea (15:19)

The

the gunshot wounds go above people who have eaten the, you know, the the diarrhea parasite, which I imagine is feels like a gunshot wound to a different part of your body. But I mean, you're not gonna get seen right away if that's your only issue right now. You're just not.

jump in here if I'm like out of bounds. Unless someone's life is on the line, children are being hurt or could be hurt.

Those are real life emergencies that your attorney should be getting back to you immediately and it is all hands on deck. Most likely everything else, unless you have court the next day, can probably wait.

Morgan Stogsdill (16:05)

You're right, but I don't like it.

I don't like it at all. In fact, it kind of goes against every bone in my body and every thing that I teach my team, which is service, service, service. We have clients dealing with the worst part of their life. So it's really hard for us to say, and for me to say, yeah, you're not the most important client today. I think that every client at their worst deserves a timely response. And I know that Andrea, you and I go round and round about this, right? Because

you push back on me and you say, well, Morgan, all your cases are high end and you've got these teams of attorneys. And yes, you're giving the white glove concierge service, but not everyone can afford that. And I agree with you, but it just pains me that somebody in their darkest moment would reach out to their attorney and be stressed out about something and not at least get some kind of response back timely that says, hey, even if they're really busy, received.

I will plan a call with you shortly in the next day or so, let me think about it, just something acknowledging what they're going through. And that's what kind of hurts me when we talk about this kind of topic.

andrea (17:14)

I don't think that you're wrong. It hurt me too when I went through it. And that's why I think I come at this from the angle of do not have this expectation that your event is earth shattering. Because unless it truly is, there might be someone out there who's having a worse day than you are. Now, I think what's hard about this is people want some sort of a timeline, right? They're like, okay, Andrea.

I might not be the most important person today, but am I the most important person tomorrow? Like when is it my turn? I'm paying just as much money. You are. I know. So what is that timeline? When should your attorney be getting back to you?

Morgan Stogsdill (17:54)

You know, I think there's a difference in levels of attorneys. I think you get what you pay for to some extent, and that's hard to hear, especially if you can't afford the high-end attorney. But I can tell you what I do and what I pride myself on. I want a response within

hours if not faster. Even if it's so much to just say we've received this, we'll get back to you or we'll have a response forthcoming or let's set a call. So I really pride myself on that. I know that that's not always 100 % the way that it goes. And I tell my team at minimum 24 hours, at least acknowledge the email, at least, unless you're like in a fire.

laying in front of traffic, on trial, over and over and over again. Like there should be no reason that you can't just send a simple email acknowledging the client. And maybe that's just not the norm in everywhere. I know that you always say, Andrea, that's not the norm in rural America. And

that's

andrea (18:48)

It's not.

Morgan Stogsdill (18:49)

what's hard. I know,

andrea (18:50)

Well, I want to round it out then with the final myth, which is if you have a quote unquote simple divorce, then you don't need to go all out and hire a fancy attorney. Wrong. There's no such thing as a truly simple divorce unless you are a simple person. You don't hire a divorce attorney who's comparable to the level of conflict.

Morgan Stogsdill (19:00)

Okay.

andrea (19:17)

That you have. You hire a divorce attorney who's comparable to the kind of service that you are accustomed to and that you deserve. This is a personal interaction, right? So if you are if you drive a Cadillac, then you're probably not going to be really happy when you roam into a Kia deal dealership because they're not going to treat you the same way.

No offense to the people out there driving Kias, although I feel like I keep mentioning Kias and the Kia drivers are gonna come for me. But that's only because Rhoda Rappaport's

Morgan Stogsdill (19:47)

you

andrea (19:54)

husband, my grandfather, long gone, Lester Rappaport, was heavily demented before he left this earth. And he used to talk on and on and on about how Kias weren't nice cars. So don't hate me, hate him. Anyway, you're not gonna get the same level of service. So if you are a person

Morgan Stogsdill (20:10)

So,

andrea (20:12)

Who is used to having your hand held and I'm raising my hand, I'm one of those girls, then you need and deserve an attorney who can meet you where you're at.

Morgan Stogsdill (20:24)

And I've seen it even firsthand. I'll give you an example recently. So we had a real estate closing, one of my cases where we were getting them divorced. It was a small closing in the overall scheme of the estate. was no big deal. We wanted to hire a white glove service closing attorney. We just did because we just didn't wanna deal with it. It was a high-end case. We were like, who cares? There's plenty of money. Just hire the expensive one.

Clothing Council fought me tooth and nail. No, we're not doing that. That's such a waste of money. And in normal cases without a lot of money, it might be, but it goes exactly to your point, right? It's, you expecting good service? Well, lo and behold, what happens? We get close to the closing date and everything's all sorts of messed up. The paperwork's wrong. The signatures are coming back wonky. Everything is a mess. And so it's last minute. Everyone's running around and guess what? Clothing Council's all pissed off. And I'm like, this isn't your problem.

you did this, I would have gone higher end because I know my clients, they expect that kind of white glove service and I did what you were saying.

andrea (21:27)

I literally had the same thing happen when Steve and I closed on our last home. We for some reason went with a real estate attorney that was not high-end because we thought, this will be simple. my God, the fucking circus.

Morgan Stogsdill (21:41)

you

andrea (21:43)

I'm like, who are are they working out of a barn? Like, what is happening?

we did this to ourselves. We what did we expect? So I know that not everybody out there, most people out there cannot afford a super fancy firm. We're not saying that you need to be handed a cappuccino every time you walk into your attorney's office, but you do need to think this thing through. You do to

Read reviews, ask

Morgan Stogsdill (22:12)

So,

andrea (22:13)

around when you interview the three attorneys that we want you to interview. Think through these conversations. Who is treating me

Morgan Stogsdill (22:21)

you

andrea (22:22)

the way that I need and want to be treated when, to your point, Morgan, you are going through the worst time in your life.

Morgan Stogsdill (22:30)

And it's not just the attorney. I want you to think about the whole process. It's the staff too. So the minute you contact that attorney and try to set up a consult, is the staff responsive? Are you getting white glove service from the staff? When you get on the phone with them and you're telling them potentially your story to get in the door with the lawyer, are they kind? Are they very...

compliant with what you're asking for. Do you feel a connection to those people too? The other thing I would say too, I agree, if you can't afford a high-end attorney, totally agree there, there's hope for you. And I don't want to act like there's no hope for you. There is, but I would do it a little differently. I would just make sure if you can't afford that white glove service firm, I would just make sure in the interviews with the lawyers, you would say to them, hey, what's the normal response time?

What can I expect from your staff when I call and want to get a call with you? And then emails. If I'm emailing, what's the normal response time that I can expect? Set those expectations up front.

andrea (23:29)

And if they trip over that answer, if they can't tell you something right away, that trip speaks volumes. If they cannot tell you right away what the expectation is with the communication, then move on. Cause that's not going to be a good fit. I am telling you this from experience. Read between the lines. Pay attention to how somebody responds to questions about

Morgan Stogsdill (23:54)

you

andrea (23:54)

communication.

Every good attorney out there should know immediately what the answer is in terms of response times and what communication looks like within their firm.

Morgan Stogsdill (24:06)

And I would just say to yourself when you're interviewing is, know, do I feel a connection to this person? And did I, was I able to get in pretty well without a lot of bumps? You know, if there's a million reschedules, if no one's responding to your email when you're trying to give them new business and come in the door, I mean, those are all red flags to me.

andrea (24:26)

Right. And it go it goes right back to what I'm talking about. If you are used to driving a Cadillac and you wander into a Kia dealership, it's gonna feel different from the minute you walk in the door and know what you're what you're getting yourself into.

Morgan Stogsdill (24:41)

I feel like if we had unlimited time, we could keep going and going. But for everybody's experience today, we're gonna wrap it up here. We have more in the future and we have some really cool things coming for you. And that's why we do the show. We just don't want you to suck at divorce if you know about us. Andrea went through a divorce herself. That's how we met and started this podcast because she made some really big mistakes. We don't want you to make those mistakes. That's why we do this podcast because remember,

This is not a sprint, it's a marathon. You're in a marathon. But the good news is it will end. Some day it is day by day and other days it's hour by hour, but you can do it. And if you need more community, go to our private community. It's free, it's confidential. There's other people going through the same things as you. If you want more than that, check out our DCC, our Divorce Crash Course online.

Fabulous course that gives you great, great information. Please rate and review us. It allows us to keep going with this show and bring on fantastic guests as well as something that's coming, like I said, in the near future that I think will calm everybody.

andrea (25:45)

Yes, we have some zen coming your way.

The fact that you even pushed play on this episode shows that you have it together more than you think you do. So keep going with that. And remember, my friends, you have got this.

Morgan Stogsdill (25:58)

And we have got you.