1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,309 you look at everything your parents and your grandparents have fought for 2 00:00:05,309 --> 00:00:11,099 and taught you, and you're seeing it eradicated within the stroke of a pen. 3 00:00:11,339 --> 00:00:14,339 And you're looking at people, you call brothers and sisters 4 00:00:14,519 --> 00:00:15,690 that are cosigning it. 5 00:00:15,805 --> 00:00:16,854 and that's heartbreaking. 6 00:00:16,884 --> 00:00:21,234 And so with that, I'm looking to, okay, Lord, now 7 00:00:23,575 --> 00:00:26,454 maybe it has to burn down to be built back up. 8 00:00:27,624 --> 00:00:29,364 What, what are the opportunities? 9 00:00:29,364 --> 00:00:32,604 Because what we have built is deformed. 10 00:00:34,314 --> 00:00:38,995 How do we excavate now this land, this faith 11 00:00:39,159 --> 00:00:48,080 so that we can have, a more true honoring faith that sees the Imago Dei 12 00:00:49,390 --> 00:00:50,140 in everyone. 13 00:00:53,034 --> 00:00:56,124 Hey friends, and welcome back to Mending Divide's podcast, where we 14 00:00:56,124 --> 00:01:00,414 have raw, unfiltered conversations about conflict with those who 15 00:01:00,414 --> 00:01:01,914 are navigating it in real life. 16 00:01:01,914 --> 00:01:03,804 I'm your host, Jer Swigart, and I'm glad you're here. 17 00:01:04,404 --> 00:01:09,234 Today's guest is someone whose voice and leadership have shaped imaginations 18 00:01:09,234 --> 00:01:11,964 of countless bridge builders around the country and the world. 19 00:01:12,534 --> 00:01:15,984 Latasha Morrison is the founder and executive director of Be The Bridge. 20 00:01:15,984 --> 00:01:21,174 She's a New York time bestselling author and a deeply trusted guide in the really 21 00:01:21,174 --> 00:01:23,424 hard work of racial reconciliation. 22 00:01:23,874 --> 00:01:27,774 Now, if you know Latasha at all, you know that she doesn't offer shallow 23 00:01:27,774 --> 00:01:30,084 solutions or sugarcoated answers. 24 00:01:30,699 --> 00:01:35,109 She invites us deep into the waters, into truth telling, into repair and 25 00:01:35,109 --> 00:01:40,359 into community that's anchored to Jesus and expresses itself in justice. 26 00:01:41,079 --> 00:01:44,649 In this conversation, we explore what formed her as a bridge builder, how 27 00:01:44,649 --> 00:01:49,209 she's reading this cultural moment, and what it means to become the kinds of 28 00:01:49,209 --> 00:01:54,219 people who can hold tension, stay at the table, and join God's gritty work of 29 00:01:54,219 --> 00:01:57,549 restoration in the world as it already is. 30 00:01:58,149 --> 00:01:58,929 Lean in with me. 31 00:01:58,959 --> 00:02:00,159 Here's the conversation. 32 00:02:01,530 --> 00:02:04,920 in conversation with folk like You, Latasha, I'm always interested in 33 00:02:04,920 --> 00:02:10,600 story and I always say that Peacemakers aren't born, they're formed. 34 00:02:11,170 --> 00:02:15,000 And I'm wondering if you'd invite us into some of the experiences 35 00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:17,610 of formation for you as a reconciler and as a bridge builder. 36 00:02:17,610 --> 00:02:20,880 When did this become your life's work? 37 00:02:20,910 --> 00:02:21,990 How did you wake up to it? 38 00:02:23,640 --> 00:02:26,694 Yeah, that's so good that you know, you're not born, you're formed. 39 00:02:26,694 --> 00:02:31,410 And when I look at the threads of my life, this was something that was 40 00:02:31,410 --> 00:02:37,834 forming in me from some of the earliest memories of elementary school , you know, 41 00:02:37,834 --> 00:02:40,942 leadership , bridge building change agent. 42 00:02:40,972 --> 00:02:43,222 Those were like identifiers. 43 00:02:43,222 --> 00:02:45,765 I could not identify those words at that time. 44 00:02:45,955 --> 00:02:49,415 I wasn't able to identify those words until you know, I was an 45 00:02:49,415 --> 00:02:54,525 adult and did a life plan, you know, but that pattern, that thread 46 00:02:54,525 --> 00:02:56,725 was there since elementary school. 47 00:02:56,725 --> 00:03:01,885 But I think there are a few, I would say, catalytic moments in your life 48 00:03:02,225 --> 00:03:04,165 that change you and that shape you. 49 00:03:04,225 --> 00:03:07,575 And I think for me was when I was in high school, I tell 50 00:03:07,575 --> 00:03:09,539 this story in the first book. 51 00:03:10,459 --> 00:03:15,621 of leading the charge to have black history month recognized in our school. 52 00:03:15,621 --> 00:03:20,711 And I think it was an awakening to me that you know, I was in a school that 53 00:03:20,711 --> 00:03:27,051 was predominantly white, but it was the demographics represented the community 54 00:03:27,051 --> 00:03:28,521 and really the country in that sense. 55 00:03:28,521 --> 00:03:33,511 So I, it was probably about 13% African American at the school. 56 00:03:33,781 --> 00:03:38,107 And I remember I was in a leadership development class, and we actually 57 00:03:38,107 --> 00:03:41,037 came up with events for the schools. 58 00:03:41,067 --> 00:03:44,457 If there was an issue or if there was a problem, people could bring it to you. 59 00:03:44,667 --> 00:03:47,781 You take it into this class and you try to you know, critically 60 00:03:47,781 --> 00:03:49,558 think about it to resolve it. 61 00:03:49,558 --> 00:03:54,593 And we did it, you know, in a very diplomatic type, governing way 62 00:03:54,643 --> 00:03:56,773 and so I remember bringing it up. 63 00:03:56,773 --> 00:04:02,772 You know, not thinking I would ever get any pushback . And I just remember 64 00:04:02,922 --> 00:04:08,985 people in that class that I considered friends and how they pushed back and 65 00:04:09,035 --> 00:04:12,215 I was like in shock and I couldn't believe it. 66 00:04:12,215 --> 00:04:13,415 I didn't have words at that 67 00:04:13,415 --> 00:04:13,865 point. 68 00:04:14,195 --> 00:04:19,365 So I remember, you know, if you go into mostly any school, around the country 69 00:04:19,365 --> 00:04:25,985 even today, even in the nineties when this happened to me went into the, you know, 70 00:04:25,985 --> 00:04:28,415 the cafeteria sat with the black students. 71 00:04:28,665 --> 00:04:33,195 Most schools are divided in tribes, either gonna be by race or or by you 72 00:04:33,195 --> 00:04:34,810 know, affinity group or whatever. 73 00:04:35,110 --> 00:04:39,400 And, was telling some of the black friends, like, what happened? 74 00:04:39,450 --> 00:04:42,620 I was so shocked by the reaction. 75 00:04:42,680 --> 00:04:46,550 And I remember this young lady telling me, that's what we voted for you. 76 00:04:46,550 --> 00:04:47,330 You gotta fight. 77 00:04:48,620 --> 00:04:50,420 She said, we voted for you to fight. 78 00:04:50,780 --> 00:04:55,460 And I remember going back in there, but I think, you know, I had a teacher that 79 00:04:55,460 --> 00:05:01,400 saw, and that understood, but she came up with a compromise where we could 80 00:05:01,400 --> 00:05:04,400 have Black History month, but we would have to call it Brotherhood month. 81 00:05:05,070 --> 00:05:05,745 Oh, okay. 82 00:05:06,350 --> 00:05:12,210 And and the, the, the, the, very low percent of people of color, 83 00:05:12,210 --> 00:05:13,440 we had to share this month. 84 00:05:13,440 --> 00:05:16,659 So no longer black history month , but it was brotherhood month. 85 00:05:17,029 --> 00:05:18,289 I tell that story. 86 00:05:19,694 --> 00:05:21,494 Because it was a catalytic moment. 87 00:05:21,494 --> 00:05:21,824 Yeah. 88 00:05:22,134 --> 00:05:24,294 First, it taught me to use my voice, 89 00:05:24,474 --> 00:05:24,744 Yeah. 90 00:05:25,524 --> 00:05:28,614 It taught me how to bring people together to 91 00:05:29,514 --> 00:05:31,224 how you would say mend the divide. 92 00:05:32,304 --> 00:05:38,634 it also taught me courage and boldness because although it was a shared 93 00:05:38,634 --> 00:05:41,324 month black history was celebrated. 94 00:05:41,554 --> 00:05:43,194 The students, we stood in that 95 00:05:43,554 --> 00:05:43,844 Yeah. 96 00:05:44,364 --> 00:05:49,294 and in that room, and we learned what we call the African American Anthem, 97 00:05:49,964 --> 00:05:53,394 which was formerly known as the Black Negro Anthem, which 98 00:05:53,544 --> 00:05:53,834 Yeah. 99 00:05:53,934 --> 00:06:00,004 but I learned, and I know that song today because of us teaching it to 100 00:06:00,004 --> 00:06:01,534 the school, learning to play it. 101 00:06:01,594 --> 00:06:06,724 And that opened up a door because we sang it so well that we had the opportunity 102 00:06:06,724 --> 00:06:08,944 to sing it all across the city, 103 00:06:09,764 --> 00:06:10,274 That year. 104 00:06:10,574 --> 00:06:15,574 And that started a gospel choir for the school. 105 00:06:16,379 --> 00:06:17,369 That is so good. 106 00:06:17,369 --> 00:06:18,779 That is so, and there's so much to unpack. 107 00:06:18,779 --> 00:06:22,049 Like I'm even thinking about how oftentimes Peacemaking and 108 00:06:22,049 --> 00:06:25,989 peacekeeping are accidentally made into synonyms of one another. 109 00:06:25,989 --> 00:06:29,109 And the way that I talk about that is Peacemaking is disruptive. 110 00:06:29,679 --> 00:06:34,084 Peacekeeping too often maintains an unjust status quo. 111 00:06:34,159 --> 00:06:38,779 And so even in that story, as somebody who has followed you, and I read you, 112 00:06:38,779 --> 00:06:42,859 I quote you, one of the things that I love Latasha about your voice is that 113 00:06:42,859 --> 00:06:47,989 there is a fearlessness, yet wisdom in the way that you are disruptive. 114 00:06:48,649 --> 00:06:53,569 So peace in this case, the story that you told, a movement toward justice. 115 00:06:53,569 --> 00:06:54,799 A movement toward equity. 116 00:06:54,799 --> 00:06:58,059 A movement even toward an expanding and awareness. 117 00:06:58,149 --> 00:07:00,969 Your friend said, that's why we voted for you. 118 00:07:01,269 --> 00:07:03,309 Go, you gotta go fight. 119 00:07:03,909 --> 00:07:06,429 There's some fight in being a peacemaker. 120 00:07:06,429 --> 00:07:07,479 Talk about that a little bit. 121 00:07:07,479 --> 00:07:10,959 Talk about the role of being disruptive in the work of conflict. 122 00:07:11,994 --> 00:07:17,153 I remember that spoke to me and it, it resonated, it awakened something 123 00:07:17,211 --> 00:07:20,421 inside of me to give me this courage. 124 00:07:20,421 --> 00:07:25,246 So it didn't just start with school, but even outside of school, 125 00:07:25,246 --> 00:07:27,906 even using my voice when I went to college. 126 00:07:28,206 --> 00:07:28,776 Because. 127 00:07:29,661 --> 00:07:35,591 I was a person, I would say that was more of a peacekeeper because I came from a 128 00:07:35,591 --> 00:07:41,961 family on one side that was, you know, somewhat passive in their interactions 129 00:07:41,961 --> 00:07:46,071 where would speak their voice, but in order to really, for their voice to be 130 00:07:46,071 --> 00:07:49,611 heard, they did it in a very jokingly way, 131 00:07:49,706 --> 00:07:49,996 Yeah. 132 00:07:50,061 --> 00:07:51,711 so that their voice could be heard. 133 00:07:51,711 --> 00:07:53,571 So it was like kind of passive aggressive 134 00:07:53,686 --> 00:07:53,976 Yeah. 135 00:07:54,681 --> 00:07:58,251 My mother's side, they spoke their voice freely. 136 00:07:58,251 --> 00:08:00,291 It was like, we're gonna deal with the conflict, 137 00:08:01,371 --> 00:08:02,541 we're gonna love hard. 138 00:08:02,721 --> 00:08:04,521 Like, I'm gonna say what I need to say, 139 00:08:04,941 --> 00:08:05,271 Yeah. 140 00:08:05,271 --> 00:08:07,551 I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna remain mad at you. 141 00:08:07,551 --> 00:08:07,821 So 142 00:08:08,571 --> 00:08:08,841 this 143 00:08:08,841 --> 00:08:09,121 tension. 144 00:08:10,551 --> 00:08:13,311 that kind of formed me in that sense where 145 00:08:13,641 --> 00:08:13,851 Yeah. 146 00:08:14,091 --> 00:08:16,911 like knowing what to say. 147 00:08:17,646 --> 00:08:18,936 also how to say it, 148 00:08:19,041 --> 00:08:19,821 Yes. 149 00:08:19,896 --> 00:08:27,516 and so not so much as deflection, but disarming not so much as you know, being 150 00:08:27,516 --> 00:08:32,766 able to say what you mean, but let it come from a place of love and grace so 151 00:08:32,811 --> 00:08:33,141 Yeah. 152 00:08:33,246 --> 00:08:37,146 the person that's receiving it is not torn completely 153 00:08:37,251 --> 00:08:38,841 Yeah, yeah, yeah, 154 00:08:39,036 --> 00:08:39,306 And I, 155 00:08:39,351 --> 00:08:39,831 That's right. 156 00:08:41,286 --> 00:08:45,655 Conflict management, you know, and any kind of conflict that you're dealing with, 157 00:08:45,905 --> 00:08:50,075 you, you don't want to tear people down. 158 00:08:50,235 --> 00:08:50,525 Yeah. 159 00:08:50,525 --> 00:08:50,825 do that. 160 00:08:50,825 --> 00:08:52,145 We can do that with our words. 161 00:08:52,145 --> 00:08:52,415 So 162 00:08:52,475 --> 00:08:52,765 Yeah, 163 00:08:52,865 --> 00:08:56,735 a way that we can give truth, but also we can build people up. 164 00:08:56,735 --> 00:08:59,555 And some that comes from the muscle 165 00:08:59,695 --> 00:08:59,985 yeah, 166 00:09:00,125 --> 00:09:00,785 empathy. 167 00:09:01,115 --> 00:09:01,405 yeah. 168 00:09:01,625 --> 00:09:04,355 from meeting with grace and compassion. 169 00:09:04,415 --> 00:09:09,845 And those are words now that in many spaces are becoming 170 00:09:10,165 --> 00:09:11,875 bad words in a sense, you know? 171 00:09:12,130 --> 00:09:12,310 Yeah. 172 00:09:12,310 --> 00:09:12,370 Yeah. 173 00:09:12,415 --> 00:09:19,445 because in order to control in order to dominate you have to take that type 174 00:09:19,445 --> 00:09:21,945 of Christ-like thinking out of people. 175 00:09:21,945 --> 00:09:23,385 But those are things that, 176 00:09:23,930 --> 00:09:24,140 Yeah. 177 00:09:24,185 --> 00:09:26,555 that we glean from scripture. 178 00:09:26,795 --> 00:09:31,295 Those are ways that we see from Genesis to Revelation 179 00:09:31,310 --> 00:09:31,550 Yeah. 180 00:09:31,565 --> 00:09:34,165 and how God led his children. 181 00:09:34,435 --> 00:09:38,195 He could have took them right out and chose another group, 182 00:09:38,390 --> 00:09:39,020 That's right. 183 00:09:39,140 --> 00:09:39,530 That's right. 184 00:09:39,530 --> 00:09:44,836 I mean, and pulling from a title of Andre Henry's podcast, hope and Hard Pills, you 185 00:09:44,836 --> 00:09:46,916 know, like there, there's the conflict. 186 00:09:46,916 --> 00:09:50,216 Dealing with conflict requires some hard pills. 187 00:09:50,656 --> 00:09:52,516 But we also have to saturate with some hope. 188 00:09:52,846 --> 00:09:53,536 You know? 189 00:09:53,786 --> 00:09:56,156 and this is why I think conflict is hard. 190 00:09:56,601 --> 00:09:59,591 you pull from your stories of origin, which I so agree with. 191 00:09:59,591 --> 00:10:04,771 Like, my experience is as I train people for conflict, is that people 192 00:10:04,771 --> 00:10:10,531 are actually really adequately trained already because of their families of 193 00:10:10,531 --> 00:10:12,631 origin and their early socialization. 194 00:10:12,871 --> 00:10:16,531 They're either replicating or reacting to, for the most part, 195 00:10:16,771 --> 00:10:20,111 how conflict was handled in their families or their stories of origin. 196 00:10:21,551 --> 00:10:25,361 I think what then makes it so hard is it's a learned pra... It's a muscle 197 00:10:25,361 --> 00:10:29,861 that we grow over time, but rarely are there any feedback channels. 198 00:10:30,251 --> 00:10:35,051 You know, like rarely do we navigate conflict you and I and then five 199 00:10:35,051 --> 00:10:38,261 days later have a cup of coffee or something stronger and say, Hey, how'd 200 00:10:38,261 --> 00:10:41,051 that go when I said this this way? 201 00:10:41,261 --> 00:10:42,311 How'd that come across? 202 00:10:42,371 --> 00:10:44,741 There's not really feedback channels, so. 203 00:10:45,776 --> 00:10:50,396 You either have to be in a really trusting relationship with somebody where feedback 204 00:10:50,906 --> 00:10:56,036 and a processing is a part of the healing, or you have to be deeply self-reflective 205 00:10:56,426 --> 00:10:58,556 as a reconciler to get better at this. 206 00:10:59,066 --> 00:11:04,526 Talk to us about your growing skill at navigating conflict. 207 00:11:04,526 --> 00:11:07,576 What's been most helpful for you in doing this? 208 00:11:07,576 --> 00:11:09,466 Doing hope and hard pills better. 209 00:11:10,921 --> 00:11:11,401 Yeah. 210 00:11:11,611 --> 00:11:15,901 I would say there's these we call it the L words that we use in be the bridge. 211 00:11:15,901 --> 00:11:17,401 And the first one is listening. 212 00:11:17,791 --> 00:11:23,061 So in order for us to be able to understand each other you 213 00:11:23,061 --> 00:11:24,501 know, being able to listen 214 00:11:25,161 --> 00:11:28,551 and that, that looks different depending on the environment. 215 00:11:28,641 --> 00:11:33,801 And so that looks different as it relates to someone that's been marginalized 216 00:11:34,071 --> 00:11:37,351 and then someone who has more power. 217 00:11:37,531 --> 00:11:37,741 So 218 00:11:37,831 --> 00:11:38,221 That's right. 219 00:11:38,251 --> 00:11:41,071 you know, in the bridge building, we have to explain that like, we 220 00:11:41,071 --> 00:11:46,321 talking about bridging, and we're talking about moving towards justice. 221 00:11:46,321 --> 00:11:52,211 So we say the listening strength comes from those that have more 222 00:11:52,211 --> 00:11:54,321 power listening to those that are 223 00:11:54,321 --> 00:11:57,951 more marginalized and to understand that and what it 224 00:11:57,951 --> 00:11:59,981 means to really actively listen 225 00:12:00,291 --> 00:12:00,471 and 226 00:12:00,471 --> 00:12:01,211 then learning. 227 00:12:01,951 --> 00:12:05,671 I was raised in the same school system that everyone else was raised in. 228 00:12:05,951 --> 00:12:10,236 I didn't have a home environment where I was exposed to you know, 229 00:12:10,236 --> 00:12:14,496 a lot of historical readings, but I was exposed to the black church. 230 00:12:14,646 --> 00:12:17,646 You know, I was exposed to the history and 231 00:12:17,651 --> 00:12:17,941 Yeah. 232 00:12:18,396 --> 00:12:23,086 of the black church, which stirred me in trying to take black history, 233 00:12:23,716 --> 00:12:24,646 to my school. 234 00:12:24,796 --> 00:12:25,996 'cause I saw it, I 235 00:12:26,181 --> 00:12:26,471 Yeah. 236 00:12:26,896 --> 00:12:28,036 at my grandmother's church, 237 00:12:28,086 --> 00:12:28,386 Yeah, 238 00:12:28,596 --> 00:12:32,626 so they were raised in that AME Zion Missionary Baptist 239 00:12:32,626 --> 00:12:34,456 tradition and which stirred a lot. 240 00:12:34,456 --> 00:12:39,766 So that learning and growing and developing, not depending on other people 241 00:12:39,916 --> 00:12:41,776 to hold your hand and teach you, but 242 00:12:41,836 --> 00:12:42,076 Yeah. 243 00:12:42,106 --> 00:12:48,616 The agency to learn and to dig in to, and to find the missing parts is so important. 244 00:12:48,706 --> 00:12:54,236 And then this is the part that I think is really key in how I had to learn. 245 00:12:54,266 --> 00:12:57,296 Because when you're doing all this listening and learning, 246 00:12:58,326 --> 00:13:00,486 it can send you into despair 247 00:13:00,731 --> 00:13:01,171 That's right. 248 00:13:02,136 --> 00:13:06,636 and learning the theology, and this is what I would say in the black 249 00:13:06,636 --> 00:13:10,976 church tradition that is very common and not found in much of the white 250 00:13:10,976 --> 00:13:13,456 church tradition is that of lament, 251 00:13:14,356 --> 00:13:19,026 having a theology around lament and a theology around suffering. 252 00:13:19,366 --> 00:13:20,926 And how do we suffer? 253 00:13:21,776 --> 00:13:23,146 How do we suffer well? 254 00:13:23,196 --> 00:13:28,666 There was a saying, knowing where your hope comes from, you know, and 255 00:13:28,786 --> 00:13:33,946 like how my grandmother would talk of help and hope were like the same 256 00:13:34,156 --> 00:13:35,986 help and hope were like the same. 257 00:13:36,656 --> 00:13:38,106 and I never understood that. 258 00:13:38,106 --> 00:13:41,666 'cause she would use the word help in the place of hope and 259 00:13:41,666 --> 00:13:43,946 I thought always correct her. 260 00:13:44,682 --> 00:13:48,792 But just look looking deep into that, 261 00:13:49,077 --> 00:13:49,407 Yeah. 262 00:13:49,742 --> 00:13:51,182 hope meant help. 263 00:13:51,347 --> 00:13:53,047 And help meant hope. 264 00:13:53,537 --> 00:13:54,097 You know, 265 00:13:54,237 --> 00:14:00,887 So we have listening, learning, lamenting- learning to lament and to call out to God. 266 00:14:00,887 --> 00:14:02,117 It's a form of worship. 267 00:14:02,432 --> 00:14:02,612 yeah. 268 00:14:02,612 --> 00:14:03,032 That's right. 269 00:14:03,082 --> 00:14:07,042 and grows our capacity for merciful response, and it grows 270 00:14:07,042 --> 00:14:08,752 our capacity for solidarity. 271 00:14:08,752 --> 00:14:10,812 You know, I'm, I, 272 00:14:11,172 --> 00:14:12,432 we don't do that well. 273 00:14:12,687 --> 00:14:15,847 No, we don't, especially those of us who are more proximate to power because we 274 00:14:15,847 --> 00:14:18,007 haven't had to, we haven't had to suffer 275 00:14:18,292 --> 00:14:18,622 Yeah 276 00:14:18,977 --> 00:14:19,907 you, you know what I'm saying? 277 00:14:19,907 --> 00:14:23,687 And so there's pain and there's grief and there's all the things. 278 00:14:23,687 --> 00:14:28,197 But suffering under the weight of systems that dignify some while denigrating 279 00:14:28,217 --> 00:14:30,137 others is not our lived experience. 280 00:14:30,797 --> 00:14:34,757 And therefore, lament is not it. 281 00:14:34,757 --> 00:14:38,187 it's a muscle that is underdeveloped I think in majority culture. 282 00:14:38,247 --> 00:14:39,007 But it's needed. 283 00:14:39,397 --> 00:14:40,297 It's needed 284 00:14:40,341 --> 00:14:41,565 And it's needed right now. 285 00:14:41,565 --> 00:14:45,615 Because Lament leads us toward restoration, 286 00:14:45,785 --> 00:14:46,038 yes. 287 00:14:46,198 --> 00:14:50,535 And I Just feel like my upbringing was lament doesn't lead to restoration. 288 00:14:50,535 --> 00:14:55,395 My creativity and solutions and muscle leads to restoration, right? 289 00:14:55,395 --> 00:14:57,555 Like, that's the faith that I inherited. 290 00:14:57,555 --> 00:14:59,925 That's the religion that I was socialized into. 291 00:15:00,385 --> 00:15:01,315 It's not true. 292 00:15:01,375 --> 00:15:02,185 It's a myth. 293 00:15:02,605 --> 00:15:02,935 right? 294 00:15:03,265 --> 00:15:07,585 what's true is that lament is the journey toward restoration. 295 00:15:07,635 --> 00:15:10,395 and a muscle that so desperately needs to be exercised. 296 00:15:10,455 --> 00:15:16,065 And I think it's part of the reason why this moment is as particularly 297 00:15:16,065 --> 00:15:20,835 jarring for majority culture, white American Christians as it is 298 00:15:21,295 --> 00:15:25,165 because we're beginning to actually watch the systems that have been 299 00:15:25,165 --> 00:15:27,355 designed to benefit us falter. 300 00:15:28,045 --> 00:15:32,435 And my sense is that America is on the decline. 301 00:15:32,745 --> 00:15:37,385 And my personal goal is not to see, america reinstated into 302 00:15:37,385 --> 00:15:39,665 a place of global dominance. 303 00:15:40,085 --> 00:15:43,985 I see our role right now is to figure out what it means to be more faithful. 304 00:15:44,535 --> 00:15:47,205 And that's gonna require lament, right? 305 00:15:47,265 --> 00:15:48,795 But too few of us understand it. 306 00:15:48,795 --> 00:15:51,795 There's a lot to lament right now. 307 00:15:51,855 --> 00:15:56,495 And I'm curious, Latasha, from your point of view what are you 308 00:15:56,495 --> 00:16:01,075 seeing right now that is, I would probably say deepening your lament. 309 00:16:01,075 --> 00:16:03,535 You have been watching this stuff for a long time, and you've been 310 00:16:03,535 --> 00:16:05,125 talking about it for a long time. 311 00:16:05,875 --> 00:16:06,745 What are you seeing? 312 00:16:06,745 --> 00:16:09,325 Help us see the world through your lenses right now. 313 00:16:09,325 --> 00:16:12,685 What are the fractures that you're most concerned about 314 00:16:12,685 --> 00:16:14,155 that's deepening your lament? 315 00:16:15,425 --> 00:16:16,145 Yeah. 316 00:16:16,415 --> 00:16:21,679 Seeing the depth of our biblical illiteracy along with our historical 317 00:16:21,679 --> 00:16:26,899 illiteracy, you 'cause what you view about God, how you think 318 00:16:26,899 --> 00:16:29,719 about the doctrine of God, like 319 00:16:32,509 --> 00:16:37,819 is evident in how we're seeing how people are being treated and 320 00:16:37,819 --> 00:16:39,349 what has been said about God. 321 00:16:39,439 --> 00:16:46,239 And so what I'm realizing is you don't even recognize God. 322 00:16:46,239 --> 00:16:46,669 like you... 323 00:16:46,729 --> 00:16:53,013 It is like there's no way you could recognize God or know who God is repeating 324 00:16:53,013 --> 00:16:57,048 some of the things that you're saying or the things that you're centering. 325 00:16:57,048 --> 00:17:02,568 So when you're talking about domination is like, that's not the fruit of the spirit. 326 00:17:03,348 --> 00:17:08,358 Like, you know, and we know that, but like the center of power and domination 327 00:17:08,678 --> 00:17:11,618 and how we even view Dominion. 328 00:17:11,908 --> 00:17:14,908 I view it as cultivation and to take care of. 329 00:17:14,958 --> 00:17:18,098 But most view it as to control. 330 00:17:18,128 --> 00:17:21,678 and so those are two different worldviews that we're looking at. 331 00:17:21,678 --> 00:17:25,208 But we're both saying these views come from scripture. 332 00:17:26,708 --> 00:17:31,938 what I'm realizing is just that we have a lot of biblical illiteracy. 333 00:17:32,268 --> 00:17:36,498 What people view about God is wrong from the very core. 334 00:17:36,548 --> 00:17:39,458 That's hard to swallow, like when you start thinking about it. 335 00:17:39,458 --> 00:17:42,488 But that's the only way that we get these outcomes. 336 00:17:42,488 --> 00:17:44,588 'cause we're dealing with one outcome now. 337 00:17:46,028 --> 00:17:50,498 But historically, there have been outcomes when we start talking 338 00:17:50,498 --> 00:17:51,668 about the Christian faith. 339 00:17:51,668 --> 00:17:57,038 So it's not just starting here right now, what's happening within the 340 00:17:57,038 --> 00:18:02,708 last six months we're talking about, you know, the things that happened 341 00:18:02,888 --> 00:18:04,598 during the Atlantic slave trade. 342 00:18:04,598 --> 00:18:06,698 What kind of faith leads to that? 343 00:18:06,948 --> 00:18:07,938 Yeah, yeah, 344 00:18:07,988 --> 00:18:12,288 we're talking about, you know, we, when we think about the Holocaust. 345 00:18:12,958 --> 00:18:14,158 Christians were there 346 00:18:14,758 --> 00:18:15,118 yeah. 347 00:18:15,118 --> 00:18:16,768 The Nazis were Lutherans. 348 00:18:17,248 --> 00:18:18,728 and like, like what kind of 349 00:18:18,788 --> 00:18:19,158 faith leads 350 00:18:19,238 --> 00:18:19,488 to that? 351 00:18:19,558 --> 00:18:20,818 Yeah, that's right. 352 00:18:21,118 --> 00:18:25,998 we talk in South Africa, you know, we can go on, like the apartheid was 353 00:18:25,998 --> 00:18:28,398 started by Dutch reform, you know? 354 00:18:28,688 --> 00:18:33,378 Our interrogation of what's happening now, has to go back historically. 355 00:18:33,428 --> 00:18:33,718 Yeah. 356 00:18:33,908 --> 00:18:36,768 So we have to have historical literacy 357 00:18:37,288 --> 00:18:39,028 to understand what's happening. 358 00:18:39,338 --> 00:18:44,423 You know, through our faith lens and also through the lens of history. 359 00:18:44,423 --> 00:18:48,143 And if we can, and we can go on and on and name country after country, 360 00:18:48,143 --> 00:18:51,923 and we have to think about this, not just here in America, but we 361 00:18:51,923 --> 00:18:53,783 also have to think about it globally 362 00:18:53,783 --> 00:18:57,833 because we are really keen on just thinking about ourselves, 363 00:18:57,863 --> 00:19:00,483 individualistically, nationally. 364 00:19:00,723 --> 00:19:07,053 But Christianity is a global faith, and where Christianity is growing now the 365 00:19:07,053 --> 00:19:10,303 most rapidly is not here in America. 366 00:19:10,463 --> 00:19:10,793 Yeah. 367 00:19:10,973 --> 00:19:11,123 And 368 00:19:11,153 --> 00:19:11,293 Yeah. 369 00:19:11,293 --> 00:19:14,143 We have to train ourselves to think that way. 370 00:19:14,143 --> 00:19:18,403 I'm taking a class at seminary on the historical doctrines where 371 00:19:18,403 --> 00:19:22,433 we're talking through the creeds, the councils, and the confessions. 372 00:19:22,763 --> 00:19:26,903 And I know like over the years, like just with things that have happened 373 00:19:27,263 --> 00:19:31,103 . During the civil rights movement there were some confessions, like, you 374 00:19:31,103 --> 00:19:32,693 know, letter from the Birmingham Jail. 375 00:19:32,903 --> 00:19:35,183 I would say that was like a confession, 376 00:19:35,393 --> 00:19:35,683 Yeah. 377 00:19:35,993 --> 00:19:37,853 it was addressing faith leaders. 378 00:19:37,853 --> 00:19:41,723 And so we've seen that I would go back to even Frederick Douglas and 379 00:19:41,933 --> 00:19:47,953 how he addressed, how he really calls out the Christians of this land and 380 00:19:47,953 --> 00:19:51,823 basically saying like, I don't know this faith that you portray, like 381 00:19:51,823 --> 00:19:54,073 this God that you say you serve. 382 00:19:54,233 --> 00:19:55,403 This is slave whipping 383 00:19:55,493 --> 00:19:55,783 Yeah. 384 00:19:56,273 --> 00:19:57,173 you know, that whole 385 00:19:57,263 --> 00:19:57,553 Yeah. 386 00:19:57,893 --> 00:19:58,523 that he makes. 387 00:19:58,523 --> 00:19:59,983 But that was a confession. 388 00:20:00,063 --> 00:20:04,873 that was something to call the church into the trueness 389 00:20:05,113 --> 00:20:05,403 Yeah. 390 00:20:05,603 --> 00:20:06,983 and the faith of Christ. 391 00:20:06,983 --> 00:20:08,663 Like, but it's been ignored. 392 00:20:08,663 --> 00:20:12,113 What I'm looking at in where we are now, after I got myself 393 00:20:12,113 --> 00:20:14,493 together, like you said, where am I? 394 00:20:14,498 --> 00:20:18,483 I was trying not to fall into hopelessness. 395 00:20:18,598 --> 00:20:18,828 Yeah. 396 00:20:19,083 --> 00:20:21,153 Because it breaks your heart so much, 397 00:20:21,498 --> 00:20:25,278 And it creates so much fear because you look at everything your parents 398 00:20:25,668 --> 00:20:31,098 and your grandparents have fought for and taught you, and you're seeing it 399 00:20:31,158 --> 00:20:34,368 eradicated within the stroke of a pen. 400 00:20:34,608 --> 00:20:37,608 And you're looking at people, you call brothers and sisters 401 00:20:37,788 --> 00:20:38,958 that are cosigning it. 402 00:20:39,123 --> 00:20:39,483 yeah. 403 00:20:39,753 --> 00:20:40,143 Yeah. 404 00:20:40,188 --> 00:20:41,238 and that's heartbreaking. 405 00:20:41,268 --> 00:20:45,618 And so with that, I'm looking to, okay, Lord, now 406 00:20:47,958 --> 00:20:50,838 maybe it has to burn down to be built back up. 407 00:20:52,008 --> 00:20:53,748 What, what are the opportunities? 408 00:20:53,748 --> 00:20:56,988 Because what we have built is deformed. 409 00:20:58,698 --> 00:21:01,158 You look historically over the landscape. 410 00:21:01,653 --> 00:21:01,923 Yeah. 411 00:21:01,998 --> 00:21:05,658 have built has a lot of deformities. 412 00:21:06,738 --> 00:21:11,418 how do we excavate now this land, this faith 413 00:21:11,583 --> 00:21:12,063 Yeah. 414 00:21:12,378 --> 00:21:21,298 so that we can have, a more true honoring faith that sees the Imago Dei 415 00:21:22,608 --> 00:21:23,358 in everyone. 416 00:21:25,068 --> 00:21:26,178 That's just where I am right now. 417 00:21:26,208 --> 00:21:26,568 Yeah. 418 00:21:26,568 --> 00:21:30,518 I really appreciate the notion of historic and theological illiteracy. 419 00:21:31,298 --> 00:21:35,558 Like, like these things as a double-edged sword or massive factors in the 420 00:21:35,558 --> 00:21:37,298 growing catastrophe of this moment. 421 00:21:37,328 --> 00:21:42,248 And the way I think I'm talking about it right now is that for American 422 00:21:42,248 --> 00:21:46,058 Christians, we've got a theology that looks more like Jericho than Jesus. 423 00:21:46,898 --> 00:21:47,648 You know what I'm saying? 424 00:21:47,678 --> 00:21:49,928 And and so, and this is where it's hard. 425 00:21:50,558 --> 00:21:53,818 Earlier you and I offline, were talking about greed a little bit. 426 00:21:53,818 --> 00:21:57,368 and I'm just recognizing as I've interrogated the religion 427 00:21:57,368 --> 00:22:00,518 that I was socialized into at the epicenter of it was greed. 428 00:22:00,948 --> 00:22:04,718 it was the desire for more power, for more freedom, for 429 00:22:04,718 --> 00:22:06,758 more abundance, for more safety. 430 00:22:06,758 --> 00:22:11,348 And I actually, if my theology looks like Jericho, rather than Jesus, I 431 00:22:11,348 --> 00:22:17,468 can endorse my accumulation of power, wealth, and safety at high cost to 432 00:22:17,468 --> 00:22:22,638 others because, you know, Jericho, where God endorsed a genocide, right? 433 00:22:22,688 --> 00:22:28,158 and then, my experience is in American Christianity, we continue to live our 434 00:22:28,158 --> 00:22:32,308 lives fueled by a Jericho orientation more than a Jesus orientation, who is 435 00:22:32,308 --> 00:22:36,198 self-sacrificial and radically generous and hospitable and interdependent. 436 00:22:36,248 --> 00:22:41,173 and so I'm struck by this because, historical illiteracy. 437 00:22:41,773 --> 00:22:47,323 I think we can do some work if we're up for it to learn better, 438 00:22:47,323 --> 00:22:50,953 more honest, sober history. 439 00:22:51,598 --> 00:22:51,888 Yeah. 440 00:22:51,913 --> 00:22:54,163 theological renovation work 441 00:22:54,913 --> 00:22:55,273 Yeah. 442 00:22:56,473 --> 00:23:00,463 that, that feels like it needs some deeper companionship. 443 00:23:01,463 --> 00:23:05,723 I don't think we're gonna read our way into a more Jesus looking theology. 444 00:23:05,723 --> 00:23:07,413 I think we're gonna be companioned. 445 00:23:07,433 --> 00:23:10,943 We're gonna live and be companioned into a more Jesus looking 446 00:23:10,943 --> 00:23:14,678 theology that then has an ethic of restoration rather than domination. 447 00:23:15,298 --> 00:23:19,023 And so like, talk to me about that because I know that companionship 448 00:23:19,683 --> 00:23:23,463 of folk along this theological journey is part of what you're doing. 449 00:23:23,913 --> 00:23:24,393 Yeah. 450 00:23:24,613 --> 00:23:29,213 One of the things that we do in Be the bridge is the bringing together. 451 00:23:29,263 --> 00:23:33,433 I would say like one of the first parts of that is proximity, 452 00:23:33,433 --> 00:23:34,663 but not proximity alone. 453 00:23:35,278 --> 00:23:38,618 You know, and I always had to, you know, a lot of times people say, well, if you 454 00:23:38,618 --> 00:23:43,118 were just around more people, no, because, you know, slave holders were around, 455 00:23:43,346 --> 00:23:43,466 right. 456 00:23:43,753 --> 00:23:44,533 black people. 457 00:23:45,599 --> 00:23:47,593 So proximity doesn't change you. 458 00:23:47,593 --> 00:23:56,973 But when you are engaging in equitable conversations, when you are able to see 459 00:23:56,973 --> 00:23:59,873 people then that part can change you. 460 00:23:59,873 --> 00:24:05,883 And I think that's what we create is environments where people can have 461 00:24:06,173 --> 00:24:12,653 equitable conversations, but also where people can really see people, 462 00:24:12,653 --> 00:24:14,693 'cause seeing it creates belonging, 463 00:24:15,863 --> 00:24:21,113 And I think in our tradition, like even in our language sometimes we lack the words 464 00:24:21,353 --> 00:24:24,443 for truly seeing someone and belonging. 465 00:24:24,443 --> 00:24:30,043 In in South Africa in Swahili they have a word like Sawubona which means 466 00:24:30,043 --> 00:24:32,603 that I see you, you know, it's like 467 00:24:33,128 --> 00:24:33,188 Yeah. 468 00:24:33,693 --> 00:24:33,913 Sawubona. 469 00:24:34,013 --> 00:24:35,693 and then there's this reply. 470 00:24:36,053 --> 00:24:41,253 But it's not just saying like, it is a greeting it's like, you 471 00:24:41,253 --> 00:24:46,433 know, I see you, but then it's like the response, then I am here. 472 00:24:46,723 --> 00:24:52,438 You know, and it's like this deepening of relationship, of companionship, 473 00:24:52,688 --> 00:24:55,568 of brotherhood and sisterhood 474 00:24:55,808 --> 00:24:58,448 that you have when you truly see someone. 475 00:24:59,348 --> 00:25:02,508 and I think that is what this is calling for. 476 00:25:02,508 --> 00:25:06,648 And so I think this is an opportunity to kind of reshape because we 477 00:25:06,648 --> 00:25:11,518 live in a racialized society and I think that companioning the things 478 00:25:11,518 --> 00:25:14,198 that, that as we move forward. 479 00:25:14,418 --> 00:25:20,258 those are things in our system that are going to need to shift in order to 480 00:25:20,328 --> 00:25:26,298 have true deep companionship and unity. 481 00:25:26,298 --> 00:25:29,328 I tell people when I say that, a lot of times people say What you mean? 482 00:25:29,328 --> 00:25:30,918 We live in a racialized society. 483 00:25:30,988 --> 00:25:35,798 and I say, well, when you're born, what is documented when you die? 484 00:25:35,948 --> 00:25:37,088 What is documented? 485 00:25:37,778 --> 00:25:40,268 When you get a job, when you get insurance, when you get 486 00:25:40,448 --> 00:25:45,008 healthcare, everything that we do in this country, you have to put 487 00:25:45,008 --> 00:25:47,018 your race down, which is manmade. 488 00:25:48,068 --> 00:25:51,218 Everything that we do, that's a racialized society. 489 00:25:51,698 --> 00:25:52,028 It's not 490 00:25:52,073 --> 00:25:52,074 right. 491 00:25:52,238 --> 00:25:53,258 that in other countries. 492 00:25:53,388 --> 00:25:54,648 So that is set up. 493 00:25:54,648 --> 00:25:58,548 Our whole entire system is set up to divide. 494 00:25:59,883 --> 00:26:01,473 So, so what do we do about that? 495 00:26:01,473 --> 00:26:06,723 Because I feel like many would listen to that Latasha and be 496 00:26:06,723 --> 00:26:08,403 like, okay, yeah, you're right. 497 00:26:08,403 --> 00:26:09,813 And this is the world that we live in. 498 00:26:09,813 --> 00:26:13,953 And I think the hopeful alternative is that we get to start breaking 499 00:26:13,953 --> 00:26:18,483 agreement with some of the ways the structures and the systems and the 500 00:26:18,483 --> 00:26:21,063 categories you know, that have been. 501 00:26:21,468 --> 00:26:23,208 we the people can change that, 502 00:26:23,253 --> 00:26:23,823 That's right. 503 00:26:23,988 --> 00:26:25,308 to be willing to fight for it. 504 00:26:25,413 --> 00:26:25,833 Yeah. 505 00:26:25,878 --> 00:26:28,398 have to be willing to use our voice toward it. 506 00:26:28,398 --> 00:26:32,478 We have to understand that it's a broken system and we have to demand 507 00:26:32,478 --> 00:26:34,558 more, but we have to know that we can. 508 00:26:34,668 --> 00:26:38,698 And what I'm seeing is like, there has to be like like the young lady, 509 00:26:38,698 --> 00:26:41,098 Regina told me, you have to fight. 510 00:26:41,818 --> 00:26:44,818 And what I'm seeing is folk don't know how to fight. 511 00:26:44,888 --> 00:26:45,733 Yeah, yeah, yeah, 512 00:26:46,018 --> 00:26:47,368 Folk like to run, 513 00:26:47,568 --> 00:26:47,858 yeah, 514 00:26:47,878 --> 00:26:49,108 they like to flee, 515 00:26:49,258 --> 00:26:49,548 yeah, 516 00:26:49,588 --> 00:26:53,608 a as self preservation, but nobody wants to stay and fight, 517 00:26:53,848 --> 00:26:54,138 yeah. 518 00:26:54,298 --> 00:26:54,718 you know? 519 00:26:54,958 --> 00:26:59,218 And I think that is something that we can learn from each 520 00:26:59,218 --> 00:27:00,478 other, what that looks like. 521 00:27:00,478 --> 00:27:03,762 And fight doesn't necessarily look like, take it to the streets and 522 00:27:03,762 --> 00:27:08,605 actually battle them out . I'm talking about mentally, emotionally, spiritually. 523 00:27:09,145 --> 00:27:10,055 unity. 524 00:27:10,185 --> 00:27:12,115 Unity is a fight 525 00:27:12,525 --> 00:27:16,385 Like, unifying, coming together, having these conversations. 526 00:27:16,535 --> 00:27:17,225 that is fight. 527 00:27:17,225 --> 00:27:18,305 Fight looks different. 528 00:27:18,455 --> 00:27:23,655 Supporting organizations that are leading and doing this work like 529 00:27:23,655 --> 00:27:25,005 yourself, like be the bridge. 530 00:27:25,005 --> 00:27:30,465 And so many others, like some people are called to support financially, 531 00:27:30,465 --> 00:27:32,445 like fight looks different. 532 00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:33,180 That's right. 533 00:27:33,435 --> 00:27:37,875 physical fight, always, but a strategic 534 00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:38,300 yeah. 535 00:27:38,370 --> 00:27:41,250 I'm haunted by this quote by Reggie Williams who wrote the 536 00:27:41,250 --> 00:27:42,780 book, Bonhoeffer's Black Jesus. 537 00:27:43,485 --> 00:27:44,685 I got to meet him a couple 538 00:27:44,830 --> 00:27:45,050 Oh, 539 00:27:45,260 --> 00:27:45,550 Yeah, 540 00:27:45,585 --> 00:27:49,575 he is one of a kind and and he was working with Global Immersion Peace 541 00:27:49,575 --> 00:27:51,045 fellows a couple of months ago. 542 00:27:51,675 --> 00:27:54,945 And we were talking about the transformation of Bonhoeffer. 543 00:27:54,945 --> 00:27:58,125 Like, like you're talking about the, for him especially, it was 544 00:27:58,125 --> 00:28:02,505 a theological renovation that had to happen, but it required an 545 00:28:02,505 --> 00:28:04,155 Immersion and not just proximity. 546 00:28:04,155 --> 00:28:05,175 I love your thought here. 547 00:28:05,445 --> 00:28:07,790 Proximity is not enough, 548 00:28:08,060 --> 00:28:08,410 right. 549 00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:14,300 when Bonhoeffer got to Union Theological Seminary in New York City, it was his 550 00:28:14,420 --> 00:28:18,800 relationships with the black church in the midst of the Harlem Renaissance. 551 00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:25,160 Deep, personal, intimate sharpening, grading, conflicted relationships that 552 00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:29,740 actually began to recenter bonhoeffer's life away from an Aryan God and more 553 00:28:29,740 --> 00:28:33,430 toward the sermon on the mount, you know, offered by a dark-skinned Jesus. 554 00:28:33,550 --> 00:28:35,920 And it changes everything for Bonhoeffer, right? 555 00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:39,490 So we're in this conversation with him, which reinforces exactly what you're 556 00:28:39,490 --> 00:28:41,980 saying Latasha, proximity isn't enough. 557 00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:46,210 Moving into relationships of costly solidarity, that's 558 00:28:46,210 --> 00:28:47,590 where transformation is found. 559 00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:51,430 And that doesn't require you to be a professional humanitarian. 560 00:28:51,730 --> 00:28:56,590 That requires you accepting the public invitations that are happening in your 561 00:28:56,590 --> 00:29:01,970 city to get into spaces with people whose lived experiences completely 562 00:29:01,970 --> 00:29:03,245 different than your own, nonetheless. 563 00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:08,440 I asked Reggie at the end of this conversation, I go, what do you see 564 00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:12,220 as the most glaring similarity between the era of Bonhoeffer and today? 565 00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:18,760 And without skipping a beat, he said that too many people of faith stared 566 00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:20,920 evil in the face and did nothing. 567 00:29:22,330 --> 00:29:29,230 To your point, there's not enough of us who have the courage and the skill to 568 00:29:29,230 --> 00:29:34,360 actually fight against, break agreement with the rules that are being given to us. 569 00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:38,500 And standing up collectively hand in hand and saying, no, no, no, no. 570 00:29:38,980 --> 00:29:40,960 Not a chance. 571 00:29:41,110 --> 00:29:42,190 Not on my watch. 572 00:29:42,580 --> 00:29:47,860 How, from your point of view, Latasha, in this moment in time, how do we 573 00:29:47,860 --> 00:29:55,150 grow the muscle and the mass of U.S. American Christians to break agreement 574 00:29:55,150 --> 00:29:58,480 with the status quo and get a little grit in their teeth, get a little 575 00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:01,450 fight for justice and for repair? 576 00:30:02,330 --> 00:30:08,450 I'm gonna just give, one answer to that right now, but then I wanna, to take you 577 00:30:08,450 --> 00:30:10,430 on a little journey, right, right quick. 578 00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:12,500 But, conviction. 579 00:30:14,060 --> 00:30:16,220 This work has to be led with conviction. 580 00:30:16,580 --> 00:30:18,410 I am convicted into this work. 581 00:30:18,410 --> 00:30:21,290 This is not something that I would choose for myself. 582 00:30:21,380 --> 00:30:23,450 This is my call, but not my dream. 583 00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:29,660 You know, this is not what I dream for myself, but this is a part of my calling 584 00:30:30,110 --> 00:30:35,020 and that can look different, you know, and some people's calling is their dream. 585 00:30:36,610 --> 00:30:39,790 My dream is not necessarily my calling, but it's something 586 00:30:39,790 --> 00:30:41,590 that I'm passionate about, but 587 00:30:41,620 --> 00:30:47,430 it's conviction that keeps me, that holds me, that guides me in this work. 588 00:30:47,950 --> 00:30:51,610 And I think that is what we need. 589 00:30:51,610 --> 00:30:54,490 We need holy conviction. 590 00:30:54,550 --> 00:30:55,990 We need discontent. 591 00:30:56,290 --> 00:30:58,090 The kind that keeps you up at night. 592 00:30:59,140 --> 00:31:00,910 This is the stuff that keeps me up at night. 593 00:31:01,070 --> 00:31:02,610 This is the stuff that awakens me. 594 00:31:02,850 --> 00:31:05,290 This is the stuff that's in my daydreams, you know? 595 00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:09,661 and that is the type of conviction that sometimes you don't, when you don't know, 596 00:31:12,165 --> 00:31:14,820 you're trusting and you're surrendered to Christ. 597 00:31:15,150 --> 00:31:17,400 And that's what led the Civil Rights Movement. 598 00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:17,640 Yeah, 599 00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:17,990 they didn't know 600 00:31:17,990 --> 00:31:18,780 what they were doing, 601 00:31:18,855 --> 00:31:19,395 that's right. 602 00:31:19,590 --> 00:31:23,780 you know, they were doing, but they were being led by the Spirit of God. 603 00:31:24,420 --> 00:31:29,610 that was revival that was happening that we don't even document as revival. 604 00:31:29,730 --> 00:31:32,190 The civil rights movement was revival. 605 00:31:32,445 --> 00:31:32,955 God was, 606 00:31:33,300 --> 00:31:33,330 Mm. 607 00:31:33,375 --> 00:31:37,360 was, was, was meeting with them and the spirit of God was 608 00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:39,770 leading them and turning hearts. 609 00:31:39,770 --> 00:31:47,460 You know, and I would say a part of, that journey that we have to take, 610 00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:51,020 is one that transforms, you know? 611 00:31:51,050 --> 00:31:55,610 if I look through, I'm always like, historical context is so key. 612 00:31:55,820 --> 00:31:59,930 And that's why I keep going back to like history, because we as a 613 00:31:59,930 --> 00:32:04,820 society don't do that well, but we see scripturally it was always done. 614 00:32:05,180 --> 00:32:09,064 It was like, you know, Paul is repeating, 615 00:32:09,064 --> 00:32:10,144 biblical history. 616 00:32:10,454 --> 00:32:11,414 Stephen does it. 617 00:32:11,444 --> 00:32:16,799 He's recounting, you know, the Lord tells them, in Deuteronomy, 618 00:32:16,869 --> 00:32:18,819 that we are called to remember. 619 00:32:18,999 --> 00:32:23,809 And so when I'm doing that, when I keep going back in history it's remembrance. 620 00:32:23,809 --> 00:32:26,159 Remembrance is a guide, 621 00:32:26,789 --> 00:32:30,669 Remembrance gives us direction you know, 622 00:32:30,939 --> 00:32:36,089 And also remembrance gives us courage and it builds our faith 623 00:32:36,089 --> 00:32:38,759 because we can see what God has 624 00:32:38,984 --> 00:32:39,284 Yeah. 625 00:32:39,719 --> 00:32:43,109 And what God is doing and what God will do. 626 00:32:43,544 --> 00:32:44,054 Yeah. 627 00:32:44,199 --> 00:32:47,159 and so I think that is a part of this 628 00:32:47,159 --> 00:32:47,539 journey. 629 00:32:47,539 --> 00:32:52,039 We are praying now you know, like, I'm praying that God convicts, 630 00:32:52,039 --> 00:32:56,749 we, we just was talking, we have a prayer call on Wednesdays, and I was 631 00:32:56,749 --> 00:33:01,274 talking to a friend of mine that does ministry called Undivided up in Ohio. 632 00:33:01,274 --> 00:33:03,774 But he was saying one of the things that they had been doing they 633 00:33:03,774 --> 00:33:07,104 hadn't publicized it much, but they were praying every day at 11. 634 00:33:07,104 --> 00:33:10,614 Like, just wherever you are, whatever time zone you're in, you know, 635 00:33:10,664 --> 00:33:17,204 pray at 11 o'clock, you know, and the power of what prayer can do. 636 00:33:18,854 --> 00:33:22,544 and this is when I go back in history, I think about the life of Harriet Tubman, 637 00:33:23,504 --> 00:33:29,804 I think about someone who escaped the atrocities of enslavement, but 638 00:33:29,834 --> 00:33:32,534 was compelled to go back, not once, 639 00:33:32,564 --> 00:33:33,044 Yeah. 640 00:33:33,164 --> 00:33:37,184 not three, but like, I think she went back 11 times or seven times. 641 00:33:37,334 --> 00:33:39,674 I may be getting those numbers off, but she went back 642 00:33:39,674 --> 00:33:41,174 several times more than twice. 643 00:33:41,584 --> 00:33:41,924 Yeah. 644 00:33:42,389 --> 00:33:45,539 And not only did she do that, she became a general, like a 645 00:33:45,539 --> 00:33:48,699 spy during the the Civil War. 646 00:33:48,894 --> 00:33:49,164 Yeah. 647 00:33:49,249 --> 00:33:54,669 But the root of who she was, she was a faithful Christian woman. 648 00:33:55,779 --> 00:33:59,859 that led with conviction and that was led by the Spirit of God. 649 00:34:00,999 --> 00:34:04,239 And same God, you know, if he did it before, he'll do it again. 650 00:34:04,239 --> 00:34:05,229 Same God right now. 651 00:34:05,379 --> 00:34:06,849 Same God back then. 652 00:34:06,879 --> 00:34:13,149 And so those are just things that I have to remind myself to encourage myself in 653 00:34:13,149 --> 00:34:16,233 the Lord as we're facing difficulties 654 00:34:16,353 --> 00:34:18,676 , that we have been here before. 655 00:34:18,906 --> 00:34:21,016 Like, my people have been here before. 656 00:34:21,016 --> 00:34:21,766 It's different. 657 00:34:21,946 --> 00:34:23,326 It's not the same, 658 00:34:24,526 --> 00:34:29,566 but God was, and God is, and God will, 659 00:34:29,926 --> 00:34:30,256 Yeah. 660 00:34:30,256 --> 00:34:34,156 the things that I'm trying to remember as I'm sitting in this right 661 00:34:34,156 --> 00:34:36,026 now to kind of encourage myself. 662 00:34:36,096 --> 00:34:41,856 And that is the thing that fuels me with hope and which hope is about anticipation. 663 00:34:42,221 --> 00:34:42,511 Yeah. 664 00:34:42,726 --> 00:34:50,196 It's about expectation that God will, and so I'm living in the God will that God 665 00:34:50,196 --> 00:34:53,166 will even these things that are happening 666 00:34:53,491 --> 00:34:53,781 Yeah. 667 00:34:53,916 --> 00:34:57,786 be used to awaken people because there are people right now 668 00:34:58,146 --> 00:35:00,546 that didn't see that can see. 669 00:35:00,696 --> 00:35:05,016 I have a whole organization of people at one point that didn't see, 670 00:35:06,216 --> 00:35:07,266 but now they see, 671 00:35:07,441 --> 00:35:07,731 Yeah. 672 00:35:07,826 --> 00:35:12,786 and so that is encouraging and none of the work that we've seen 673 00:35:12,786 --> 00:35:17,526 biblically and also historically has been done by the majority of people. 674 00:35:17,556 --> 00:35:19,137 We're not gonna convince everyone, 675 00:35:19,322 --> 00:35:19,802 right. 676 00:35:20,087 --> 00:35:22,127 but there is always a remnant, right? 677 00:35:22,202 --> 00:35:24,062 There's always the remnant. 678 00:35:24,392 --> 00:35:25,142 A remnant. 679 00:35:25,262 --> 00:35:32,950 And just think about if we can pray towards this remnant of people who see. 680 00:35:32,950 --> 00:35:33,340 That is 681 00:35:33,355 --> 00:35:33,645 Yeah. 682 00:35:33,670 --> 00:35:34,300 we can do. 683 00:35:34,540 --> 00:35:38,170 That is something that is active, that's, that is something that is alive 684 00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:39,880 and that is something that is God led. 685 00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:44,030 Prayer is the seed bed for revelation, innovation, 686 00:35:44,170 --> 00:35:46,330 creativity, wisdom. 687 00:35:46,390 --> 00:35:48,010 All of those things come from prayer. 688 00:35:48,070 --> 00:35:52,640 And so just imagine, you know, just this five minutes of prayer at 11 689 00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:55,070 o'clock, God's people coming together, 690 00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:55,570 Yeah. 691 00:35:56,235 --> 00:35:56,865 and praying. 692 00:35:57,105 --> 00:36:01,235 And you know, this country may never look like 693 00:36:03,545 --> 00:36:09,155 what we want it to look like, you know, but we can look like 694 00:36:09,155 --> 00:36:10,815 what God wants us to look like. 695 00:36:11,375 --> 00:36:11,705 Come on. 696 00:36:11,705 --> 00:36:13,055 Well said. 697 00:36:13,055 --> 00:36:13,895 Yeah, that's it. 698 00:36:14,105 --> 00:36:14,735 I love it. 699 00:36:15,125 --> 00:36:16,475 Latasha final word. 700 00:36:16,545 --> 00:36:22,235 you're talking to so many of us who are growing more and more aware of 701 00:36:22,235 --> 00:36:26,775 the widening divides internally, interpersonally and institutionally, and 702 00:36:26,775 --> 00:36:28,425 the heat is gonna continue to turn up. 703 00:36:28,825 --> 00:36:34,105 Those divides are not trending toward mending at the moment. 704 00:36:34,155 --> 00:36:36,885 But those of us who are listening in are folk who want to learn how to 705 00:36:36,885 --> 00:36:40,545 move toward the divides, toward the conflicts, toward the injustice with 706 00:36:40,545 --> 00:36:42,255 the tools to heal rather than to win. 707 00:36:42,685 --> 00:36:45,280 Last word for us, what would you say to us, what is most 708 00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:46,960 important for us to know right now? 709 00:36:49,265 --> 00:36:53,965 This, we were on the brink of something, and this is where I 710 00:36:54,025 --> 00:36:55,315 lost my thought for a second. 711 00:36:55,595 --> 00:37:01,665 In 2020, we were on the brink of something with the murder of George Floyd. 712 00:37:02,085 --> 00:37:03,765 There were people that were awakened. 713 00:37:03,765 --> 00:37:09,040 There were people that saw atrocities and a reality that they had never seen before. 714 00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:13,300 There were people who leaned into a history that they had never 715 00:37:13,300 --> 00:37:14,680 desired to lean into before. 716 00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:19,285 There was conviction that was happening, and for many it was performative. 717 00:37:19,735 --> 00:37:25,150 But there are people who are still in this work that are, you know, a part of 718 00:37:25,150 --> 00:37:29,500 Global Immersion, that are part of Be the Bridge and so many other organizations, 719 00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:32,560 because God convicted them and 720 00:37:32,700 --> 00:37:32,990 Yeah. 721 00:37:33,100 --> 00:37:34,990 transformed their hearts in 2020. 722 00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:42,670 And what we saw that was different in that any other time period is 2020 was global. 723 00:37:44,380 --> 00:37:47,620 It was like this global, what I call un reckoning, because in some 724 00:37:47,620 --> 00:37:49,330 places they are still living out 725 00:37:49,580 --> 00:37:49,780 Yeah. 726 00:37:49,900 --> 00:37:50,410 reckoning. 727 00:37:50,690 --> 00:37:52,790 But it was global and it was diverse 728 00:37:53,945 --> 00:37:54,005 Yeah. 729 00:37:54,050 --> 00:37:55,170 and that was the fear. 730 00:37:55,720 --> 00:37:59,930 In 2020, what we saw was not just black churches coming together 731 00:38:00,290 --> 00:38:04,030 to talk about the injustice of what happened to George Floyd. 732 00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:09,170 And looking at the injustice overall, what has happened to 733 00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:11,160 marginalized groups in our country. 734 00:38:11,500 --> 00:38:16,660 It was a unified, I saw Asian churches here in Atlanta. 735 00:38:16,990 --> 00:38:22,520 I saw you know, Latin churches, white churches like this coming together. 736 00:38:22,570 --> 00:38:24,670 Just looking out into the masses. 737 00:38:24,670 --> 00:38:29,200 I had an opportunity to speak at a couple of the rallies and looking 738 00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:32,943 out into the masses and seeing the diversity was a beautiful thing. 739 00:38:32,943 --> 00:38:36,843 And even hearing people who are not Christians, people who are far from 740 00:38:36,843 --> 00:38:42,953 faith, like a Ta-Nehisi Coates, who was interviewed and, he's very pessimistic. 741 00:38:42,953 --> 00:38:46,963 And even in his writing, there's not a lot of hope in his writing. 742 00:38:46,963 --> 00:38:49,843 He's a beautiful, brilliant writer, but he doesn't write 743 00:38:49,843 --> 00:38:52,073 from a place of hope, you know? 744 00:38:52,383 --> 00:38:53,313 But he's writing. 745 00:38:54,153 --> 00:38:59,703 So like underneath that there is some hope, you know, and he sat on a interview. 746 00:39:01,113 --> 00:39:06,423 And he was in tears and he said, I know people are not gonna believe this, 747 00:39:06,633 --> 00:39:11,733 he said, but for the first time in my life, because he's witnessing this 748 00:39:11,733 --> 00:39:17,323 coming together, like whether it was performative or what this difference 749 00:39:17,323 --> 00:39:23,603 that was happening in 2020 and that ignited marches all across the globe. 750 00:39:23,623 --> 00:39:26,823 He said, for the first time in my life, I have hope. 751 00:39:27,513 --> 00:39:28,123 And 752 00:39:31,953 --> 00:39:41,953 from fringe areas of the church, like CRT, anti woke, now, anti DEI, it has 753 00:39:41,953 --> 00:39:45,373 snuffed the life out of that hope. 754 00:39:46,183 --> 00:39:52,053 But what he was witnessing was God's people coming together. 755 00:39:53,853 --> 00:39:56,833 They would know you by the love, they would know the father by the 756 00:39:56,833 --> 00:39:58,243 love that you have for one another. 757 00:39:58,423 --> 00:40:03,583 He was sensing something, feeling something that was drawing him, and it 758 00:40:03,583 --> 00:40:07,483 was snuffed out within a year basically. 759 00:40:08,923 --> 00:40:10,093 And that was done 760 00:40:12,463 --> 00:40:17,243 because of fear and the fear of loss of power, you know, 761 00:40:17,993 --> 00:40:20,633 but we saw the seeds of that. 762 00:40:21,653 --> 00:40:25,133 So I feel like those seeds are still here. 763 00:40:26,093 --> 00:40:31,553 I think my closing word is do not lose hope. 764 00:40:32,933 --> 00:40:39,863 Do not lose hope and be willing to fight. 765 00:40:41,438 --> 00:40:44,297 You know, like, if you don't know how, 766 00:40:48,227 --> 00:40:50,507 look at some of the people of color around you. 767 00:40:51,227 --> 00:40:56,357 You know, look at our indigenous brothers and sisters who have lost language 768 00:40:56,357 --> 00:40:59,387 and culture, but are still fighting. 769 00:40:59,387 --> 00:40:59,447 Know. 770 00:41:01,057 --> 00:41:01,347 Yeah. 771 00:41:01,787 --> 00:41:05,987 this group of African American people who are on this soil who lost 772 00:41:06,017 --> 00:41:12,147 cultural language you know, clan affiliation, tribal affiliation, 773 00:41:13,197 --> 00:41:15,117 all these identity markers, 774 00:41:17,912 --> 00:41:19,382 but still found hope 775 00:41:19,651 --> 00:41:24,346 and found a new language and a new culture you know, a new belonging. 776 00:41:24,846 --> 00:41:27,816 let us be your guideposts, you know? 777 00:41:28,666 --> 00:41:31,466 I don't know if that's, what I'm thinking. 778 00:41:31,466 --> 00:41:33,402 That's what's resonating with me right now. 779 00:41:33,452 --> 00:41:36,992 I don't know if that's what needs to be said, but that's what I said. 780 00:41:38,612 --> 00:41:38,792 yeah. 781 00:41:39,272 --> 00:41:39,482 Yeah. 782 00:41:39,482 --> 00:41:41,892 Have hope, and not to give up, 783 00:41:42,017 --> 00:41:42,307 yeah. 784 00:41:42,792 --> 00:41:43,032 right. 785 00:41:43,032 --> 00:41:45,342 And And not self preserve. 786 00:41:46,952 --> 00:41:51,162 Latasha, thank you for the gift of this and for your work and for your witness. 787 00:41:51,252 --> 00:41:56,252 And I can't wait for the next opportunity for us to be together. 788 00:41:56,622 --> 00:41:56,802 yeah. 789 00:41:56,802 --> 00:41:58,812 I wanna set something up because I think, 790 00:41:59,052 --> 00:41:59,442 Yeah. 791 00:41:59,532 --> 00:42:05,512 one of the words that I have been resonating with over the last year 792 00:42:05,512 --> 00:42:07,012 is that we are better together. 793 00:42:07,072 --> 00:42:08,362 We are better together 794 00:42:08,452 --> 00:42:09,202 Better together. 795 00:42:09,202 --> 00:42:12,862 and there's so much there's so much that you, in your heart and 796 00:42:12,862 --> 00:42:15,142 language that is so resonant with 797 00:42:15,382 --> 00:42:15,472 yeah. 798 00:42:15,892 --> 00:42:16,462 and ours. 799 00:42:16,462 --> 00:42:19,892 I mean, we're having conversations with folk around like, no, we're not trying 800 00:42:19,892 --> 00:42:21,662 to raise up the next moral majority. 801 00:42:21,662 --> 00:42:25,892 We're trying to actually reinforce the righteous remnant, you know, like this is, 802 00:42:26,297 --> 00:42:26,587 yeah. 803 00:42:26,697 --> 00:42:29,067 it has always been a fringe movement. 804 00:42:29,067 --> 00:42:31,857 The revolution has always been a fringe movement, 805 00:42:32,122 --> 00:42:32,427 yes, yes. 806 00:42:32,487 --> 00:42:32,967 you know? 807 00:42:32,997 --> 00:42:38,187 And I'm just completely disinterested in competing. 808 00:42:38,487 --> 00:42:39,987 We have to do this together. 809 00:42:40,017 --> 00:42:42,597 We have to do it together, you know? 810 00:42:42,777 --> 00:42:43,977 Hey, this has been a gift. 811 00:42:43,977 --> 00:42:44,967 let's be friends. 812 00:42:44,997 --> 00:42:46,677 Let's be friends and keep taking steps, 813 00:42:46,797 --> 00:42:47,517 let's do it. 814 00:42:47,787 --> 00:42:48,087 Okay. 815 00:42:48,087 --> 00:42:49,137 You have a good one. 816 00:42:49,167 --> 00:42:50,037 Stay Encouraged. 817 00:42:50,487 --> 00:42:51,117 Yeah, you as well. 818 00:42:51,117 --> 00:42:51,507 Bye-bye. 819 00:42:53,964 --> 00:42:56,184 So friends, I hope you're walking away from this conversation 820 00:42:56,184 --> 00:42:57,624 with a little more clarity. 821 00:42:57,984 --> 00:43:01,914 A little more courage and a little more commitment to becoming a person of costly 822 00:43:01,914 --> 00:43:03,774 solidarity and restorative presence. 823 00:43:04,554 --> 00:43:08,189 Latasha reminds us that true bridge building isn't about avoiding 824 00:43:08,189 --> 00:43:12,749 conflict, it's about entering it with truth, humility, and hope. 825 00:43:13,049 --> 00:43:17,879 That Peacemaking requires a little bit of fight, and is always grounded in prayer. 826 00:43:18,559 --> 00:43:22,009 If this conversation stirred something inside of you, share it with a friend, 827 00:43:22,009 --> 00:43:26,779 leave a review and keep showing up to the work of Peacemaking in your community. 828 00:43:26,779 --> 00:43:29,449 Until next time, keep walking the way of peace.