Hi, I'm Nina underst.

I'm Anna Toonk. Welcome to how to be human, a podcast that explores the common and often confusing themes of humaneness.

On this episode Anna and I discuss death. Take a seat clear mind and let's chat. Do it. That's our opener. Let's do it. Let's do it. I can't even imitate myself. Hello, everyone, you're here with us too. I am stoked about this topic. Boy. i It's funny. I feel like I feel I'm like, I'll let you drive. Because I'm so curious to see how or like what today's is, you know, like, cuz I think it is a little bit. I was gonna call it a hot topic. I don't know that. It's odd.

Oh, God, I just got so uncomfortable.

Yeah, I don't know that. It's a hot topic. But it's one that comes up a lot.

Yeah, so it's death.

Yeah, we're, we're like, what you clicked on this link? Yeah. Which Yeah, we always think I think like that we're seeing it, you're unveilingsomething? Or not? Every time it literally just dawned on me that they're like we know.

Yeah, but granted, to our defense, we're recording this in April, you're not going to hear it until like June. So as if the pandemic hadn't made us think about death enough. It also distorted our timelines. So just as a couple things going on there. I think I was laughing to myself of how, like, how hilarious is the definition for death going to be? I was like, let's like I was just very curious to see how it would get defined. And according to Oxford languages, death is a noun. Which I truly didn't know, I thought it might be a verb, but is the action or fact of dying or being killed? The end of the life of a person or organism, an increase in deaths from skin cancer, the state of being dead? Even in death? She was beautiful. The permanent ending of vital processes in a cell or tissue? Yeah, so Ooh. A fun fact about me that I have brought up on here before but I feel like now's the time for this fun factor really shine. I don't think about death. Ever. Really? I mean, ever is too strong, you know, for sure. I mean, it's, I think I would be, I don't know something if I didn't think about it ever. But I don't think about it very much, or very often. And this is something I didn't think was weird about me until I got older. And every time I said, Yeah, I don't think about it. People lost their minds.

I think about it all the time. When I'm thinking about death, which is multiple times a day.

It does it comfort you a little bit that just like I feel like I have those things too that like my thought has now been been replaced by like your reaction, you know, or like your Think about it like, which is kind of a comfort like when I'll think of like, like now instead of like thinking about death or who like does it redirect your focus to be like, I can't believe that psychopath. I'm partnered, no ever thinks about.

It's true. It is helpful, because I'm like, it must be possible to not obsess about it all the time. Like as a lifestyle thing about like, what is the high risk? Like, no, you Oh, you don't do drugs at your ass? I don't.

Yeah, you you're not like you don't leave your home. You know? Like, I mean,

I do a little bit now.

True. Okay, so like twice a week she leaves her house. Like you don't engage in high risk behavior. No, no pretty good health. You know, like, what are you so worried about?

I think about death. I would say conservatively, this is conservative number 14 times a day.

That's a very specific

it's probably like 45

Did you try to count it one?

No, but I will be horrified if I tried to count it. I mean, I think about it. Sometimes. I don't. What's interesting is when we went to Lowe's yesterday, I'm going somewhere with this and whenever

I mean, I was like, I have follow up questions already.

Well, we Milo really likes to go on the car with both of us. And we were painting our picnic table. It was like a family thing, even though Milo painted it for five seconds and goes, This is killing me and put it down. But we went to Lowe's to get paint. And as soon as I walk into one of those stores, which is I'm never I'm like, there's going to be a mass shooting.

How has there not been, I guess, because they all hang out there and go like, it's hard, you know, together something I don't know.

And obviously, I'm not making light of that in any way. I am. I am terrified of there's just so many ways to die. And I think so much of this is when I was little, a lot of people were dying around me and it didn't bother me at all. Not like I was like Sia, but I didn't this Yeah.

And I'm, I have more questions like, I mean, whatever, you're comfortable sharing, but

anything, anything and everything.

Like who was dying? How old? Were you? How was it discussed? You know, like, Yes, I also am curious about that. Because people, there was death when I was younger, like people died. And I remember when I was like, in third grade, a girl one of the one of the my classmates, there we go. Her mother died of ALS. And they took us to the funeral. Which I think is weird. We were like in second or third grade. And I was like, Mom, did they ask you about that? She's like, No, I don't think so. I'm like, isn't that just to your

child to a funeral?

Yeah, I mean, granted, he was Catholic school. And we went to, like, went to the mass. But like, that still seemed weird to me. You know, like, what if we had,

I don't think Catholic people ask for permission. They just do whatever they want with your kids. And then they call it Jesus.

I mean, there is yeah, there is evidence to support that, you know, but he was like, also, she didn't find it that weird. And I'm like, and I think we're so weird about death. And we are us as it is. So I'm curious. How old were you when this is happening? Like, how was it discussed? You? Were these? Who are these people? You know, like, yeah, because I find it interesting that you're like, I wasn't I don't remember, like being bothered at the time. But like, Hmm, like delayed reaction? Yeah, like maybe this did have an effect on me. You know,

certainly did. I will a lot happened when I was nine, a lot happened when I was nine. And I think it was like the death of so many different things. My parents got divorced, I was abused at both of my grandmother's died within like, two weeks of each other. And it was just like, a massive swirl of all these different deaths. Right, fit so much loss, like for much innocence out the way yeah, you know, like family done. Grandmother's. I mean, they were young. They were like, you know, in their very early 70s. Like how old my mom is right now. Yeah. And so and then it and then it was like, you know, my mom's friends are like, aunts and uncles and whatnot ons. But, and then as I got older, it kind of leveled out. But it just it's so strange. I remember being a little kid and and just knowing like, one of the stories is my grandfather, I was only three and I didn't even like him. And he was just really kind of hard to get to know and not very nice, because he had his own shit anyway. And I would hide from him. But when he died, I talked to him and I remember I have such vivid memories of talking to him. After he died, and comforting my family and being like, it's okay, you can still talk to him. Like I felt very clear about that, which is interesting. I was so much closer I think to what I hope is the truth, which is like it doesn't end it just changes. But as I've gotten older I don't It's not like I'm missing the law. I'm missing those specific people. Now, of course, I wish I had more time with a lot of them, but it's it's less that and more. I have I feel like I have so much to lose now. And I and I just know how precious it is that life is and I know how kind of hard it is to to process. You know that physical loss and I just I don't know if I don't feel I mean I don't feel equipped for people that I You hold really close, you know, I don't feel equipped for that I felt terrified of that

I mean, I don't know that anyone is, are you? You know, like, I mean, as someone who's experienced a lot of loss and how to parent die young, like something that people said to us all the time as like, I couldn't do this if it were me, I would just die. And like, that's just the dumbest shit. Don't say that to people, you know, because it's not an option. It's not when you're given, you know, like, you're not like, oh, I guess I'll just stop, you know, like, it's like anything else, you just stumble your way through and figure it out, you know, was death talked about in your house? Like? You know, I mean, obviously, your parents, like when all this is happening when you're a little kid, like, their plates are full, you know, like, they're, I'm not trying to let them off the hook. But also, like, I'm guessing if you weren't asking questions, they were like, fine to not be like, let's talk about the meaning of life. And what happened, you know, like,

yeah, no, I don't we didn't talk. Well, my grant, one of my grandmother's wouldn't let me see her. I remember that. Very specifically.

Interesting.

She didn't want me to see her.

And that was, was she sick? I yeah,

they both Yeah, they both had cancer. And it was. Yeah, they both deteriorated one more than the other. I think. Just I don't know. Yeah. I don't feel like my mom's mom. That was I mean, she, although Nevermind, I just blocked that out. Wow, that came back like, oh, no, knock, knock. No, my mom's died. Mom, my mom's mom died. Like, in a way work. She actually lived with us for a while, and I slept on the floor. And this will just be a nice memory for a little Nina. As big Nina, my grandmother would like read me the fucking Bible at night, which I didn't even know she was that religious. But anyway. And I'd be like, Can we read another story, like, this one doesn't really resonate. I just was like, this is I don't like the story. I don't know where we are, right. But I watched I was watching her, you know, and get and giving space up. It was like, I understood it from such a bigger, you know, kind of point of view, because I was sacrificing. I when I was a little kid and I was sleeping on the floor, you know, for my grandmother, because she was so sick. And and so I do remember that part. But as far as the conversation, I don't think we talked a lot about it. And I don't think that I had enough attention on like, how I was processing it, not because they were not good parents, but because like you said, I think their plates were full, they didn't really have the tools maybe and so I wish we did talk about it more. I also think our society, like we've said before, on this podcast, and on another one we've done in other cultures, they you know, like in India, they, I mean, you like see the dead bodies.

Yeah, a lot of cultures do that in India too. Like, while when I was there, you know, we were like in the streets and all of a sudden, we heard all this music and you know, and they were carrying a body to the crematorium. And it was like this big party, you would have thought we were in New Orleans, you know, like, it was like this huge like parade of you know, and it was all men and I asked it was like, is that coincidence? Or is that a thing and they're like, often it will only be men who you know, take the body like to kind of like spare women which was interesting to think about and like that the women will help often with like the preparing and the dressing like I that stuff I get a little weird about like, I don't really have problems with death. I've been you know, like, I haven't had problems like you know, my grandmother was in kind of a like an unconscious state for some time before she died and stuff like you know, like, that doesn't weird me out but like a friend, Heather Hogan, who's a really incredible tarot reader meditation person and she's also a death doula very. Her Instagram has wisdom. And sage, just in general, a very interesting, cool person. And she told me this story about like, you know, her stepfather died when she was a teenager and she like, washed his body.

Oh my god. My mom did Not for her mom. And I couldn't fucking believe it.

Yeah, like, that sort of shit. Like, you know, I think that, like, the only thing we know for sure is that we're all gonna die, which is like bizarre? Like, how is that the only thing we know for sure, you know, and like, the only thing we're guaranteed in this life, you know? And yet, we're like, Let's do nothing. Let's like, not address it, let's just sort of hope for the best. Let's just be like, terrified of it. And I think like, I remember as a little kid, you know, being like, you know, like, as a little kid, you're like, what's the worst that could happen? And you know, and I remember, like, one of my things was like, well, one of my parents die. And then one of my did, and I was like, well, the worst has happened. Now what you're gonna do, and I just remember from that point being like, I'm never worrying about this again, I just can't waste the time in that anxiety that I was like, rather than obsessing about death, you're going to just focus on living, you know, like, that's it. And I think also to something my mom has been planning her funeral, like my entire life. And I kid you not, it's, I get updates, it had versions. And it's also a way that I corral her when she's maybe misbehaving, and remind her that she gonna be dead. And so her funeral will come down to me. So when she was like, so horny for COVID, and threatening to, like, you know, drive to Atlanta and stuff, I was like, like, I'll have mines at your funeral. Like, I have no problems, like, making it the service of your nightmares. Like, I mean, what are you gonna do haunt me? Like, I'm just, you know, and she'll, she'll be like, Fine, I'll behave. I mean, there was times where she was like, you're gonna need to get Jesse Norman, who has now passed on, but it, you know, was like, an award winning opera singer. I'm like, You're crazy. I'm not doing any of this, you know, but then I do think there's like, nothing sort of more sacred than people's, like, last wish woman, you know? Yeah. I mean, what's more real than like, I realized, like, when I was there, when a friend had a baby, like, there's just nothing more fucking real than when someone takes their first breath or their last, like, there's just nothing more real in this life than that, you know. And I think that there's a beauty to that, that we miss in depth, you know, that, like, this American obsession, I think is a lot more about control than it is about life, in my opinion, in regards to death. And I'm like, what if we took away some of the anxiety and just like, focused on living better lives? You know, I know it's so true. I wish I think yours makes sense. Like, it sounds like your feelings about death are a reaction to trauma. You know, like, it got filed in your brain as death, you know, but it's like what you said like, you love your life, like you're afraid of losing it.

Yeah, like, exactly.

They're like, that's a fair thing. But I don't think that's death.

No, you're right. i But although when I had Milo like, I will that I'm sure.

I would love to hear. Yeah, because I do find like when I started also to talking to more friends about death, and I think some of it was like maybe some of their parents were starting to die or something like I'm this like, informal death ambassador for people like I you know, the people who get like, referred to me or seek me out or like, like, I heard you had a parent that or you know, like your COVID talking about this stuff. A lot of the friends who have big, big big feelings about death are our mothers and I'm so curious. What that what motherhood has done for that. Has it changed that for you? Has it increased it? Yeah.

Yeah, man. Yeah, yeah. Well, when I was pregnant, it was the only time in my life for I mean, now I'm I'm having a good spell like the past you know, year maybe. Ish, but the for that those nine months, I did not have one panic attack. I don't even I didn't think about dying. I like I just knew we were saved. And I mean, I flew to Columbia did a retreat with him, like in my frickin belly. I can't even believe myself. And which for some people, not a big deal for me, at that point. Not a big deal for me now, like can't fathom it. But anyway, I was so I felt so clear and so good and safe. And when I had him, I think it was a mix of A couple of things the state of our world. Listen, it's never been great. But yeah, when Obama was president, and when we came back, Trump was president, and you

forgetting about that, how that plays also into when you became a mom, because like I are, I'm sure, I'd be so curious, any other listeners if like, you became a mom, during that time, I had, I don't know, a big life change, like, how did our politics like, our role became very different at that point? Like, I am curious, so do you anyone else who can be like, that changed that for me?

You know, when I was dating somebody before, why, like, on and off for a long time, and I remember sitting in a bar with him once in him being like, I don't want to bring kids into this world. And I was like, well, there's so many reasons why this won't work. But that's obviously a deal breaker for me. And I was like, the world. And at that point, was the world like, of course, still shit, in many ways. Yes. But what happened when I got back and I had my low is, everything felt so concentrated, and so angry and so dangerous, that I would look out my window and just be like, somebody's gonna shoot through the window, and we're gonna die in our sleep. And that's going to be the end of us. And I would like, think of every possible scenario of how we could die. Which is not I don't recommend that, you know? No, it's, it was torture. It was torture. And I, I don't think that I was I don't think I had any sort of postpartum necessarily. Maybe I I'm like, I believe you did, friend. I don't know. I think

those are intrusive thoughts, like to mention all the different ways you could die

feel it goes like coming in and go like on the reg for me?

Well, just because you're used to it doesn't mean that it's not your

Yeah, no, agreed. I'm not saying it's normal. And I don't like that word. I'm not saying it's healthy. I'm not like, Oh, I was thriving, you know, think just thinking about all the deaths scenarios. Yeah. But I, I felt, I didn't feel unhappy. And I know, that's not the only mark of depression, but I I felt so happy. And that's when those things kick up for me, right? Is I don't like when I was the sickest I've ever been. I was not worried about dying.

Well, that's always the way isn't it? I think it's like, like, when I had cancer, I wasn't worried about dying. I mean, how fucking fucking cancer crazy is that I can tell, like, convinced I am that I'm not dying. I'm like, I'm gearing up for the next cancer. You know. I was actually like, reading about that, and the likelihood. And fortunately, I do think I'm not high risk, thanks to my smoking. But anyway, I think often, I think that's also part of why I have a bit of a like, attitude in regards to it is like someone who has been close to death at times, you know, like, in the ER had those moments, whether it was like, through people or my own health or whatever. It's like when shit gets real, real real, you know, like, you sort of realize that, you know, like, I remember going to a support group, because I didn't feel like I had enough cancer, like, I wasn't cancer free enough, you know, to like, support and resources. And I just remember getting to a point where, like, I was just so frustrated because I cuz I needed support. I mean, I needed a therapist, but at that point, I didn't have one. And once I just felt and I felt like honestly, so fucking sorry for myself. And it was one of the few times I think I really, like gave into that in my life and like, and for good reason. I was like, here I am having another experience that fucking isolates me from everyone. Like, why does that seem to be what happens to me? Like, I don't want you to wallow in that. Yeah, I know. And then I was like, Okay, well let me and I was like talking to my oncologist and was like, physically, I'm feeling okay, like, I you know, I feel like shit, but like, men, like, I think I was like, mentally and he was like, I really want like, please just go to one. Like, just go once and see what you think, you know? And I remember going and being kind of like, Yeah, I mean, like, Y'all seem like, like sick, sick, and I'm just like, a little bit sick and you know, like cuz I also just like

cancelled with a capital C.

Yeah, I mean, but I just was in there and like, I lost a lot, I'm sure. Well, but I also felt like really bad. Like, I wanted to be clear to these people. Like, I don't think my shit is the same as yours. You know, like, I'm 26 at this point, like, I'm young, and I'm, I have no fucking clue what to do. You know, I feel so like, out of step with everyone, you know, and this woman who looked like shit, I mean, like, really looked like she was in the thick of cancer, you know, bald has a hat on, you know, it's summer, but she's wearing like, wool, you know, like, doesn't look great. And she turns to me and says, and she goes, You can digest as easily as I can, you know, like, you deserve to be here. And I was like, Oh, shit, you know? And they really that group break really pushed me to look at that, you know?And, and I was like, Well, I guess where I keep netting out? is like, if I'm gonna die, and I'm gonna die from this, like, what the fuck am I gonna do about it? I can't do anything. You know, like, I just can't. You know, like, it comes back to like, certain things. I just, I can't give a lot of energy. You know, I think if I'm powerless in it, you know, like, I think also too, I don't like to throw OCD around lightly. But I and I don't think I have OCD. But I have OCD tendencies at times. And I have, you know, this, my therapist agrees on this. This is not me, just like diagnosing myself via like, Google or whatever. And because I can be very obsessive, and I can be very compulsive, and I think it's a way I protect myself, because I think if I really thought too much about that, like, I would be like the person turning orange because they're like, taking in too many carrots. You know, like, I think I would get like, anytime I feel myself getting sick, I've gotten better about it. But I used to be obsessive about like tea, tinctures wellness formula, like, you'd like we're gonna end this off you Oh, yeah. That I think that I've, I've had to go this other way of just being like, well, what am I going to do about it? You know? Or, like, what does that mean? Okay, you get a cold, like, that could be inconvenient, like, you know, but it's like, when I have the illusion that I could do something, you know, like, I make myself kind of nuts. You know, and I think, especially with bodies as spent, like, I It's like my relationship with with death can only be so like, intimate in a way because my relationship with just being in a body is so complicated. So I would have to grapple so much more with like my relationship with just being organic and antibody and susceptible to like, you know, spoiling and bruising. Like the little peach I am said spoiling that, you know, like, I just don't have room I just, you know, like, I can't I think I'm like not like I'm in control.

I think I'm looking at pictures of dead when I Googled death, because I wanted to have it up just you know, really set the stage. There's like, there's blue feet, a man sailing out into a river, or canoeing, which apparently is what you do when you die. And the Grim Reaper, lots of grim Grim Reaper imagery. When you view Google it's interesting that you bring up that the body connection, obviously, that makes a lot of sense, considering when you die, you leave your job all day. But I think that's a huge part of why I wasn't scared for a long time because I wasn't in my body. And I didn't know that I I don't think I'd ever engage in like risky behaviors. I wasn't I was never that type of gal. I had, I would take more risks. And I didn't think about it. I mean, when I was young, when I was a teenager or when I was in my 20s I really didn't didn't think level obsess, but I for me after having a baby and realizing how deep I could love I mean, it kicked up when I met way and was like oh shit, this is it and I could have like a real life and I feel things so deeply like now please don't take him away

I find it fascinating when you told me that when y'all were first dating, that every time he last left the house. You were convinced He was gonna die. And you still feel that way, like a little bit. And even also to when he was saying, Oh, it's like clockwork, he's like, I knew you were about to. Or like, he's like, I knew without looking like that it was you asking, like, where are you? You know, or, yeah, that and I was like, this is fascinating it have to ask too much about it's, it's about love, which I find also really interesting for you that

thank you for saying that it's not as much about control as it sounds like it is.

No, it's not. It's about love. It's, I think the way you're nature, well, I think Aries I think certain signs, like get a bad rap of like, Oh, they're all this, you know, and like, they're all fire and they're, they're, you know, they're strong, and all this sort of stuff, but like, you also are deeply loving, and incredibly loving. And I think I might cry have you? And I think you've a quiet way kind of of being that way to be honest. Like, you know, like, I think I'm just as loving as you but like, I want credit and you don't like, you know, like your, your weight chiller about that? You know, whereas I'll be like, Well, isn't that such a love for you for loving you. Whereas you're like, I'm just gonna love really deeply, but then I'm gonna like terrorize myself because of the way I love in a way. I represent her as myself. And I find that interesting. And if it's something that I think makes me it was nice for me to see way also meet you in that and be like, oh, yeah, you know, like, and there was no, there was no like eye rolling. There was no, he just he lived he said it with like with love. He said it with a fondness like you both sort of just sort of laughed about it. And I was like, what a nice way to fold like a fear and reassurance and do something, you know, which is like, if that's not fucking life and relationships. I don't know what it is like, I have an irrational fear. I will make you feel okay about your fear, like rinse like lather rinse,

and not you know, judge you about it. Yeah. And I don't want to control the people I love and and something I'm actively working on every single day is I want my kid to feel free, right? I want him to have experiences. I want him to be brave. I want him to live his life and I don't want him to feel like but like I've said here. I think God by nature, he is so cautious because I don't push. I mean, obviously I'm like, be safe. Don't walk with your mouth for all this shit that I repeat. Just like all fucking day long.

Yeah, but you're also giving him a reason why you're like, I don't want you to do that because this could happen and he's like, great point

way laughs because I'm like, I don't want you to choke and not be able to breathe and he's like Jesus knew.

You do. And Milo's like, yeah, we need to breathe. Like, he's always like, great point. Like I concur with

you want to know why you want to ask me what I'm going to tell you. But I do remember being embarrassed about telling way not like, I didn't think he was going to judge me. But I knew that it was a very, very vulnerable thing to admit that I'm, I'm scared when you leave. I'm scared. And he had to run out last night. And it was like eight o'clock. And we laugh about this. Because if it's five o'clock and he's like, I'm gonna run out like now it's late. And he's like, it's what? We've the house at fire. Danger time, like, do you just order or wait till tomorrow? No for me? Nope, son's gonna go down in about an hour and a half. And he, you know, at first when I told him I think he's still surprised that that's how like, some I work things out. But he had to run out last night. It was like eight o'clock and you've forgotten something. And I was like Nina and he had to go to the center of hell because the only place that was open was I don't even think I can say the name out loud because it's makes me so sick. This place was Walmart. And I'm terrified of Walmart for so many reasons. I don't understand it. I understand that a lot of people have to go there and do go there. But I don't I It scares me is the scariest of all the stores. And when he said he had to go there at eight o'clock at night. I was like, You better work on your anxiety girl. Just talk yourself down. Like okay, yeah, gotta do it. We'll just text me when you're coming home. And because of course I'm thinking mass shooting. Possibility number two of the day. And you're like, you're already we already done the bullet. We already dodged the bullet today. Like we get we're gonna go back in for this risky behavior.

What are you taunting the gods?

You're just dancing in front of them dead.

We did not make a sacrifice.

Oh my God. So he texts me from there like a funny video being like, Oh my God, and then he was like in the car and I'm like, okay. But it is love and it's I don't think I ever thought I could feel love so deep as I felt feel for him and Milo, you know, takes that to like a whole new level. And what I'm realizing is that I'm not scared of disappearing, I'm not scared of them disappearing, because I do believe in after, you know, NIS, I believe in spirit, I believe in spirits. But it's just, I want to hug my kid and I want to talk to my husband and I want to be near them. And the thought of that not being is something that is so you know, makes life so beautiful, because I really do try to soak in every possible minute with them. And with people I love in general, well, I'm not great about it with my parents, to be honest. But it's like, it's so finite. It's just it's so final.

But you try. I mean, you have your parents out there all the time, like

trying more with my mom, she's here right now.

I definitely think you try. You know, like, I do think

I don't really try with my dad, you try more with my dad.

Yeah, I think you're figuring it out. You know, I think from what you're telling me, like, you're, you're figuring out what that what that looks like, you know, what is the modern day healthy version of you trying? You know, and trying to connect that doesn't, you know, come in your expense or feel fake, I think which is not, that's not easy. Like, I'm trying to figure that out with my brother. You know, like, what's authentic? You know, what is what is love? You know, like, love isn't always been nice, like, love isn't always like, everything's cool. So,

amen. A fucking man.

Like, that's what's tough. You know? And, and that's kind of like, I mean, that's the thing about deaths like, and I think that's what I get really, like, frustrated by like, a lot when the conversation comes up is like, I think it can be a lot of people, you know, projecting a lot. And yet, where are they, when someone in their life like, sustains a loss? You know, like, I don't think I think sometimes when people I don't This isn't me, like subtweeting you like, like on Mike but because I don't think you're someone who's very self absorbed in your examination of death. But I think a lot of people are like, so self absorbed, and in are the same ones that like if their bestie loses someone or like someone kind of in their circle, sustained some kind of loss, like doesn't show up for them and I have

because they don't want to be close to it. No, zero, I'm I will be here at all the death things I will be there, I will be your best death friend, because I'm not scared of it. As much as I'm terrified of it. Like, I'm not scared to talk about it. I'm not scared to be in conversation or support. I've always been, like, first in line for that.

Because you're not, like, contagious or faint, but like, it's not about me, did it but the people who aren't like death is contagious. Or, like, it's so painful for them to imagine. Like it happening to them or what like, I have so yeah, I I'm trying to be a less judgmental person. It's not going well. And I'm like, I don't want to judge those people. But you know what I might have to like, that sucks to be so wrapped up about sort of weight, in my opinion, what's a bit imaginary and selfish because it's like, you never know. Like, I find like COVID is obviously brought up a lot around death, like abs, you know, we've lost like a million Americans like, worldwide. I don't know what the total count is that but it's been a massive loss. You know, I forget what the stats are. How many like one in blah. You know, like, people have died.

500 children in the city have lost a caregiver.

I mean, that's, that's just so unfathomable. fathomable we've never been like nothing like that has ever happened. We've lost but also like, I listened to a lot of podcasts that I listened to this one call on the vanished I think I want to get it right. And she tends to cover cases of people who are leading more high. Yeah, the vanished who lead more like high risk lifestyles, you know, and the comments people leave on her social about like, well, that person used drugs like who cares if or, or, and doesn't think about that that person, first of all is a person is you know, is a human, and then has people who fucking loves them out there in the world, like, the attitudes we have also to like if someone wasn't perfect, you know, like, it comes in a comment. Yes, it comes up with cancer all the time that basically I, uh huh, that whole thing and like, it was interesting once like, my mom was talking about it. And she was like, Well, you know, like, it was about someone and I think bladder cancer and was like, well, smoking, smoking. And I was like, Mom, did I deserve mine? Then she's like, I'm not saying that I go, but you kind of are, you know, like, like, does that make you feel safe? Like you won't get cancer because you didn't smoke? I mean, you know, it's caused by his cellular mutation, right? Like, that's what cancer is, you know, like, that's what it boils down to, like, we think we've figured out all these things, but there's still people who have never smoked to get lung cancer and there's people who have been healthy their whole lives who like dropped dead, you know, like, stuff happens and I think so much of death is like, making our peace with blank one, valuing life and to that, like, we have to get up and go through every day knowing like, we could die that day. It might die like you might die we might we risk emotional devastation, like at all times

that's what that's what's so big for me. But every single night I obviously don't like pray to, you know, like Jesus or whatever. But

our funniest moments of me and I getting to know each other when she's like, You believe in God, but then I was like, yeah, like, I don't think it's like a man with like, a with a beard up there or something. But like,

like, Oh, God, do I have to do I have to turn around right now? The verse by says, No that believe it's like, God fearing woman. But I find a couple things fascinating. One when you people can't not center themselves right in, in death in in someone's loss. And I and I, it's so it's so much more common than it is uncommon. The majority of people don't know how to talk about death. I'm scared of it. But I'll talk about it all day long, you know? Yeah. Because I'm in I'm fascinated some I gotta have Scorpio somewhere, you know, weird, but it's just that I'm fascinated. I watch a lot of things about death. I always have, I believe, do you believe in near death experiences?

Yeah. I believe something happened. A lot of the this stuff like near death experiences past lives, the afterlife. Like, I believe in all of it. I don't know. I believe in I'm like, a lot of what was that show on Netflix? That not the one you just watch. But there was one that like, was near death experiences? Yeah. Obviously. Yeah. And yeah. And I mean, like, that's, like, when so many people I think pushback are like, No, or like, you can't believe in that. I'm like, well explain that. You're like, I don't believe that. It's just like, the brain losing oxygen. Woman

Do you remember that one? Yeah. That knew she was going to die. Like, that's just, I mean, like, I'm a Nishan.

Yeah, like, you can't. I mean, I don't think um, I do believe in evolution, as well. Like, I can believe in God or higher being an evolution that is positively clear.

Everybody believes in evolution here.

But like, don't you think that there is something like, if everything could be explained, I don't know that I want it to be like, because isn't there something sort of miraculous about like that any of this has happened at all that like it life for a living like that? Things came from like weird, tadpole like creatures like a vault you'd like all of that stuff? used to live here? Exactly. Yeah. All the way it is so miraculous

under percent personal I wouldn't want to sit at like, you know, a seminar that long of like, yeah, she can like what's up? I'd be like, I'm looking bored. I'll just wing it a little bit. Do you have a Cliff's Notes?

But she would be like, is there a highlight session?

Or picture book? But it's no I think that's part of why life is magical. Because you we don't know. And you know, when I see how Milo looks at everything, and I know it's such a cliche, but it's so true. Like looking at the world through your kids eyes is mirage. Oculus and it just reminds me I mean, he's, he wakes up singing every single morning. And he just makes up a song. His new his new character is His name is Bob brought. It's actually genius. Apparently, it's Bob Marley's deceased friend, Bob Rock. And Bob rod length is apparently being channeled through my low. Okay, who's Bob rot? And he's like, Oh, he's the one that sings a song, of course, but he's dead. Now, Mike. And Mike has been talking a lot about death lately.

Think it must be a phase that kids go through? I mean, I, I have no idea. But I hear this with other friends that around. What is it like four to six? Like kids all of a sudden can get very into it or have questions or I wonder also do like, is that when it starts to be introduced via like, you know, shows or what you don't? Like? Is there some age where they're like, let's like, float this out there like we did I go Sargon I find it so interesting that like kids, like, in terms of brain development to like, when we start to have like, night terrors and stuff that, like, we start to sort of even have the idea of like, there are things to be afraid of, like, what's super interesting to me about little kids and when they'll talk very freely about death or be like, you know, it's funny, like, kids will be like, you know, my my mommy's like, or like, my, like my granddad's dad, like, is your granddad dead in your life? Like when they're dead? Yeah. You know, when they're just like, very matter of fact, or, you know, and stuff like that, I think is like, very cool and funny, as well that like, I don't, I find it interesting when they tend to, to come on, like online about death, you know, like, it seems to be introduced.

Yeah, it's so interesting. What I found, what I learned when I was pregnant, is that babies think that they're you and you are them until they're seven months old. Does you know that. Like that it's a mirror. They don't think that they're separate from you.

Oh, yeah, I could see that. Yeah, well, kids are the biggest. I mean, I don't. I was gonna say kids are the biggest egomaniac. But they're, they're egocentric. You know, like, they are like, yeah, the world is them as far as they're concerned, you know, which, like, also, it can be really funny. Like, I remember this. When I was like, in high school, you know, someone asked him, like, what time is it? And they were like, when daddy's come home? Because it was like, yeah, it was like, when they would usually go pick up their dad, like, from the train station, you know, like, it was like, there wasn't a time that was just like, Daddy time, you know, like, and then it's like, the miracle kind of have kids to a certain degree of this, like, different way of looking at the same thing, you know, of it is like, I liked like what myelin is doing in terms of like, one V, you know, like, if we really didn't want to tap into like, Bob Marley is a ghost be like, why not explore it? You know,

totally. And I encourage him, and he's, you know, now there's a monster that he's not afraid of. But he won't put when we read that night, he won't put the books right next to the bed. He has to stack them, like, a couple inches away from us. I'm like, Okey dokey. Because there's a monster. And he's like, Oh, no, we can't the monster will get it. And I was like, but there's not. And he's like the monster and I'm like, okay, the monster will eat our bucks. Got it. And I think it's important to play with him to like, to not make him feel like what he's saying or thinking or imagining is, is not real. First of all, I don't know, maybe there was a monster, like, whatever, I don't know everything. And I want him to feel safe. But I also want him to know that he can explore like, different kinds of levels of his consciousness and imagination and all that. But he's, it's a challenge because now he's asking me about death lot talking about death. Why this one's dead. That one's good, dead, we're all gonna die. And I'm like, good, okay. And it's like, just a nice exercise in. I'm not going to swallow that down. And I'll say like, that. I'm scared of that. But you know, we don't disappear. And we talk about it. And it's, it's a normal part of our of our conversations. You know, it's just, it's not weird. It's not something we hide or I shy away from. And so I find that part of motherhood really interesting too. Sometimes I can't even believe I'm a mom. Isn't that weird? Sometimes I'm like that. And I'm so in it. Sometimes I'm like, Oh my God, you're you're my kid. I'm your mom. And but it's just this really interesting layer of Have your challenges kind of coming and circling back and you sitting with them through this little mouth piece and is like telling me about death? What's up with death? And I'm like, Okay, well, I guess we're gonna explore that today. But it's so it's just, I feel like a lot of us avoided the talking about it thinking about it being conversation about it, because we don't want to believe. And we don't know how to believe. And we don't want to or feel comfortable exploring. Kind of the other side of things, right? White literally, like, what does that mean to you?

Yeah, I think something I would offer people as someone I'm not particularly grown up, I would say, but I do have a will. And I need to, can I? Yes, you do. Because that is something I feel really strongly about. My father had had an heart attack that destroyed 30% of his art almost two years to the day prior to the heart attack that took them out. And what did he do, he did not have a will, he did not pay taxes, he did not clean up his shed in any kind of way, shape, or form. And let me tell you, that was a real fucking nightmare for us. And I think a really great thing we could all do is confront our feelings about death by taking care of the things we would need to do for our loved ones, should we exit this, this plane, because I think the discomfort around death leads to a lot of that avoidance. And let me tell you, what doesn't help grief is having to sort through someone's life, and figure it all out while under crushing grief. So that is my PSA for everybody. If you are, I mean, even if you're single, like I'm single, but like, people would still have to figure out what to do with all my wood what to do with my life, you know, like, so even if you're single, like, you don't have to have, you know, kids are like, Oh, just think of also your wishes. Like, I'm telling you, no one in your life like, well, no one good in your life wants to plan your funeral. You know, they want to honor what you want for your final, you know, send off. So take that off the people of your life, you know, like, task yourself with figuring out what do you want, you know, and write that somewhere, preferably with a lawyer. So it's official, and your final wishes can be executed. But it is really important. If you have any kind of assets, if you own a home, if you have a 401k like your your husband, your partner, your person, your family will not be able to get shit for possibly years without info from you of what you want. And that's ultimately I don't think what any of us want. So that is my very, I feel really strongly about that. And so I do just want to tell people to do

Yeah, that's been on my list for a bit. And I'm like, I really need to do that. I think so much of not getting in front of it. Like, but, but helping to support you know, the people you love. Should that happen is Yeah, cleaning up stuff. I say it to my parents all the time. I'm like, I know my mom's like, you know, everything. Yeah. in tip top shape, but I'm like, Dad, I'm not cleaning your apartment. So hopefully you have someone you want to hire for that. But ain't me You know, I just know them. I mean, what I do it fine. Yeah, maybe. But it's it's important. That is that broke up, you know, my family on my dad's side, among other things, but was like, divvying things up when my grandfather died. Pictures like, it's like, the amount of wild you know, oh, kind of heavy. Oh my god. I mean, for that to it's just I've seen it really break people apart. And it's sad and it's unfortunate. And, you know, the more we can kind of put things in place, the better I think with that, for sure. I agree.

I'm also a big advocate of life insurance because you know, the average funeral costs $10,000 If you're, you know, if you don't have 10 grand handy, which no shade I don't either. If you or your family like Like, life insurance is your friend in the sense of life insurance will pay out much more quickly, then, in a state of any kind well, so if you're worried like fuck, like, what if something happened and I had to bear you don't like, or whatever life insurance is your friend, you know that, that that is something too that can you know, like the business of death can be very expensive. If people have long term illnesses, just funeral expenses, like bills don't stop because you've lost someone. I'm a huge like, if if we hadn't had my dad's life insurance, which thankfully, we were able to get that to pay out more quickly. Despite his whole estate being probated, there was a clear designated, I can't think of the word but like a recipient, you know, like my mom was designated as the person. So that was the only way we stayed afloat. So I'm also a huge believer in that, like, you don't think you need it right now when you're like young and healthy, and everything's cool. But you want to think about a time when the last thing you want to be stressing is money.

Yep. And what are our last death thoughts?

I mean, I think I would challenge people to push. I mean, like, obviously, death is scary. There's no denying that. But I would push yourself to examine, like, what is it you're actually afraid of? Is it? Is it being out of control? Is it losing on life you love like to push yourself because that's also where you can take care of yourself. And then I would also look at death in terms of like, kind of, I think it can be really helpful to watch documentaries, or things by people who do depth work, to see like that there is this beautiful aspect to it as well, to lessen some of that fear to also think of like, what would you want? And what do you want your relationship with death to be?

Yeah, I think that's all good advice. I find watching things, reading things, is super helpful. And just not not being afraid to talk to the people around you to about your feelings. That people that you trust, because I think there's not a lot of shame. I wouldn't say but just trepidation, maybe about speaking about. Yeah. And I get that, you know, it's make sense. Yeah. So I would definitely, definitely encourage conversation and X, you know, exploration and just patience with yourself. You know, obviously, if you do have intrusive thoughts, get some sort of help with that. And, and there's no shame in having someone support you. And we all need support, especially around such big life stuff, you know, so, yeah, thanks for talking. Thanks for listening to death with us.

Yeah, thank you for this happy looping show.

Happy living. Let's just while we're here, and we've made it through, it's almost five o'clock so we're doing well today.

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