[00:00:00] Dr Renee White: Knowledge is power, and we are all about empowering the mamas of the world. In each episode, we will unravel and interpret the latest research and evidence-based practices for pregnancy, postpartum, and motherhood. As mums and researchers ourselves, we have experienced firsthand the overwhelming complexity of information myths and those classic old wives tales.

[00:00:27] Dr Renee White: I'm Dr. Renee White, and this is the Science of Motherhood. Hello and welcome to episode 180. I am your host, Dr. Renee White. Thank you so much for joining me today. We have got a very interesting episode today. I definitely learned a lot about this. It's something that when the guest first approached me about coming on the podcast, I thought, Ooh, very, very interesting.

[00:00:54] Dr Renee White: I think I might have been using this instinctively, but it being a formalised thing. I, I wasn't aware of this, so very, very insightful. Before we jump into today's episode, I wanted to remind everyone that if you are pregnant, if you're planning to have a baby, if you are in the thick of motherhood and you're like, holy moly, guacamole, where do I even start one of the number one things that I found is really helpful and valuable for new parents and seasoned parents, to be honest, is planning. Planning what your life looks like after birth. If you wanna get a bit of a springboard into some key tools and tactics about how you're going to navigate rest, how you are going to stock your fridge and freezer with beautiful, nourishing food that's actually going to replete your body after pregnancy.

[00:02:03] Dr Renee White: If you're thinking about how are we gonna have those conversations with our toddler about becoming a big brother or a big sister, and how can we prepare for a successful feeding journey, then you probably probably need our quickie postpartum planning guide, which we have on our website, ifillyourcup.com, head over to the tab, Freebies and Guides, and you can download our postpartum guide there.

[00:02:33] Dr Renee White: Alright, let's dive into today's episode. We have got Meg Mahon from Baby Sign and she is a early childhood intervention teacher who actually specialises in language and communication. She, you can tell from this interview, she has got such a passion and thirst for knowledge this woman. And I love the fact that she has just kind of seen a bit of a gap and gone, actually, you know what? We're gonna do this. And she's kind of made a business out of her passion, which I always, always love. I love supporting other female, uh, founders, uh, particularly here in Australia. So Meg, um, went and did a Master's in Learning Intervention, and she got that from Melbourne Uni, and she is a qualified Auslan interpreter as well as a mum of two.

[00:03:31] Dr Renee White: As I said, she's the founder of Baby Sign. She started that in 2022 to support families, to have better communication with their little people and set them up for success. So in today's episode, we are going to be talking about baby signing, which as I said in the beginning, I was like, I feel like I did this intuitively. I didn't realise this was like a such a formal thing, but it totally is and Meg walks us through essentially, what is baby signing? When can you start baby signing, what the benefits are for both your children and yourself? And then we're gonna debunk a few myths along the way and how to set yourself up.

[00:04:14] Dr Renee White: If you listen to this podcast and you think, actually, you know what, I think we're gonna give this a go because these benefits sound amazing, and I can assure you there are some key moments where I was like, oh my goodness, this would've been so good to have in the toolkit as a new parent. Wait till you listen to those. So Meg talks us through what the most important aspects are for signing with your child, and then essentially how you can set yourself up for success. It's actually not that difficult, bit of an spoiler alert. I know you're gonna love this episode. It was great. Get your pen and paper ready because Meg has got a fantastic course that you can do, whether you are in Melbourne, where she is located or online. So, all of those details are in the show notes. Alright, let's dive into today's episode with Meg.

[00:05:09] Dr Renee White: Hello and welcome to the podcast. Meg, how are you?

[00:05:14] Megan Mahon: I'm great. How are you?

[00:05:15] Dr Renee White: I am spectacular. It's actually really nice weather today in Hobart, which is unusual, but maybe not because we get, I feel like we get our weather late than everyone else, but yes, I'm almost like thinking, I need to take this jumper off already. I'm gonna do my sleeves up. Everyone would've heard from the introduction that we are gonna be talking about baby signing. Now I have to, full disclosure, full disclosure. Thanks. You emailed me about this and I was like. What is baby signing like, I was like, is that, is that just us kind of doing like little symbol type things?

[00:05:54] Megan Mahon: Mm-hmm.

[00:05:54] Dr Renee White: You know, like eat, like, you know, hands to the mouth type thing. Yeah. And I thought this is very interesting. This is like a whole realm that I am totally not aware of. Just so we can kind of get off on a good foundation. Can you tell the listeners a little bit more about your background and I guess

[00:06:14] Megan Mahon: Sure.

[00:06:14] Dr Renee White: How you got into baby signing?

[00:06:17] Megan Mahon: Sure. So it was, it's been a bit of a journey and I'm gonna do that whole cliche, it's been a lifelong journey, but it quite literally has. So I started signing in primary school

[00:06:29] Dr Renee White: mm-hmm.

[00:06:29] Megan Mahon: With a friend of mine and started signing. We met up again at the end of school, at the pub, and I couldn't communicate with her, so she was deaf sorry to clarify. So a deaf friend in primary school, and we went to the pub and I couldn't communicate with her and her friends, and that was really frustrating for me. So I went back to TAFE and learned Auslan, so Australian sign language, and became an interpreter. Did all those sorts of things. Loved it. Wanted to work in early childhood education. So I went back, studied a bachelor of early childhood education, and from there went on to do my Masters of Learning Intervention, which focuses really heavily on language and literacy and how we can support children because children, at risk or with disabilities and different conditions really need support in literacy because of the flow on effect it has for someone's entire life.

[00:07:24] Megan Mahon: So through the Masters in particular, I discovered how amazingly beneficial signing is for brain development and language development and how it just kind of all meshes in together. So to, I guess to answer that original question of, well, what is baby signing it's using, so in Australia we use Australian sign language.

[00:07:47] Dr Renee White: Okay.

[00:07:47] Megan Mahon: So baby sign is borrowing signs from Auslan and using them with speech, so to help them communicate before they can talk, because for those first 18 months, two years, for some children, they're not able to communicate effectively with their words. But adding signing means that they can actually communicate with their parents and carers really effectively.

[00:08:13] Dr Renee White: Wow, okay. Because I mean, and I feel like it's it, looking back, it was kind of instinctive for me to kind of like start to think, like I say, you know, would, do you want some food or drink? You know, you do that pouring of the cup type of thing. But I also like, to me it wasn't just signing, but also like sounds like when we would go to the zoo, it would always be like. What's that one? And then it would be the sound, like, almost like old McDonald's farm, you know?

[00:08:45] Megan Mahon: Yeah.

[00:08:45] Dr Renee White: And the Cano here. Um, that type of thing. It's interesting how, how we have to break it down for our kids. I wonder like, when, when should people start signing? Like is there, uh, optimal time to actually kind of start implementing that?

[00:09:04] Megan Mahon: So I guess it depends on where you are when you learn about it.

[00:09:09] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm.

[00:09:09] Megan Mahon: So, and I'll give you a few examples of the impact that it has at different stages of development and how it can impact on kids.

[00:09:15] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:09:16] Megan Mahon: I think some examples from a playgroup course that I'm running

[00:09:19] Dr Renee White: mm-hmm.

[00:09:19] Megan Mahon: And one of the families, mum is an OT and she had some basic, um, so occupational therapist and she had some basic signs before she had her child.

[00:09:29] Dr Renee White: Okay.

[00:09:30] Megan Mahon: And she started signing from weeks old.

[00:09:33] Dr Renee White: Wow.

[00:09:33] Megan Mahon: Weeks old like three or four weeks they started signing like once you get that kind of you know eye contact and recognition and engagement they started signing. Bub is now five months old and is signing milk when she's hungry.

[00:09:48] Dr Renee White: Wow.

[00:09:49] Megan Mahon: So, so she doesn't cry. She's not a grizzly baby or anything like that. She just goes, ah, I want milk now and she'll sign milk and like, okay can action that dad's gr happy 'cause he knows what that means and he can be like, here, go, go back to mum. And obviously it, it just makes it a little bit of a calmer household when that happens.

[00:10:08] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:10:09] Megan Mahon: And, but it's a long game, you know, they've had to wait four months of just persistently signing in hope that it will, you know, happen and it has five months fam like, you know, I've got other babies. You know, at seven months old, they're in the pram signing their version of finished because they don't wanna be in the pram and they're like, ah, signing finished, because they wanna get out of the pram at seven months old.

[00:10:34] Dr Renee White: Wow.

[00:10:35] Megan Mahon: Yeah. So it's just the earlier the better from a language perspective, the earlier the better.

[00:10:41] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm.

[00:10:42] Megan Mahon: But for families that kind of discover it that little bit later, what tends to happen is they go, oh, okay, we're gonna start signing and there's just this explosion of language and explosion of signing with those sort of slightly older babies at about 10 months old.

[00:10:59] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm.

[00:10:59] Megan Mahon: They just all of a sudden go from not being able to communicate except through crying to having a dozen signs within you know, weeks or months, like it just happens. And then even toddlers, you know, there's a huge benefit for toddlers as well. I'm sure you would remember with your daughter, those like cute, that sort of 18 months to two and a half years where they can't really talk properly you can understand them. Yeah. But there's some words that you are like, I don't, I, I don't know what you are saying. Yeah. You're saying these sounds, but, so adding signs for toddlers is really helpful because it clarifies those early attempts at speech. Mm. Which is always lovely.

[00:11:38] Dr Renee White: And I can imagine, like, I, I mean one of the number one things, we were just talking about this the other day, um, my girlfriend and I, and, um, you know, her child is six and mine is seven and a half. And we were talking about how in those toddler days, how incredibly frustrating it was to kind of

[00:12:01] Megan Mahon: for everyone

[00:12:02] Dr Renee White: Yeah. To kind of be like. Yeah. What is it that you need? Like there's, there's that, you know, sometimes there's that emotional explosion, which, you know, is part and parcel for that age group and totally fine. But there is that moment where you, you're using your rational side of your brain and you're kind of trying to regulate your child's brain at the same time, but you're just like. For the love of God, like what is going on here? Like, tell me what it's, yeah, and maybe like as you say, like how much easier would it have been to have a child who could, who could sign finished like this to get out of the pram, because I know. What is it with children when you try and get them in a car seat or in a pram, they turn to concrete. If they really don't wanna do it like that would've been so, so much easier to be able to communicate that with them.

[00:12:58] Megan Mahon: Yeah. Oh it is. And it's. Again, without wanting to sound too cliche about it, it's so empowering for them as well. Yes. Oh, they just, they're just like, well, I can do this. I can communicate. I, and, and we know in language development, what happens is that, and again, you would know this from your own experience with kids, is that their level of understanding far exceeds what they're actually able to say. Yes. Long time.

[00:13:24] Megan Mahon: Yeah. One to two. They understand everything that you say. You can go say, go and get your shoes, or do these sorts of things. But they can't communicate outwardly. Mm-hmm. So, you know, what's going on in their mind is, is a lot. And giving them a tool or just a way of getting that out before they can speak is just, it's really powerful. Like, and I've watched it with both of my kids and how helpful it's been. Yeah. Um, and now all these other families that I'm now working with and it's really inspiring to be like, oh, see, I knew that it was a thing. I knew that it was a thing theoretically through my study and research and all that sort of thing, I know it's a thing through my own children.

[00:14:01] Megan Mahon: Yeah. And now watching it in other families, I'm like, oh good. Everyone's kind of like, you get it now. Yeah. Like you're seeing and you're experiencing it and it's, it's, yeah. It's really lovely to see the impact it's having on. The families.

[00:14:14] Dr Renee White: Yeah. Right. Yeah. Apart from like the obvious, which we've spoken about in terms of, you know, just that great channel of communication and understanding, are there any other benefits for the child or, you know, the, the parents in being able to baby sign? Is there any, yeah, like, do we know about any short term, long term effects, anything like that?

[00:14:37] Megan Mahon: Well, there hasn't been robust research around it, I'll be honest about that. But some of the preliminary research that they have done has shown things like improved social emotional skills and learning, which links into that, like you were saying before, it's so frustrating for these little people to not be able to communicate when they can communicate and they can understand some of the language that's going on. It helps them with their social emotional development. Mm-hmm. So I'll give an, an example of that would be, so if a child doesn't understand what sad means, because they don't understand that word. Yeah. Then they can't really identify and then they can't regulate themselves.

[00:15:17] Megan Mahon: But if we support them to develop a vocabulary around it from a very young age through signing, then that kind of aids their social emotional development as well. And then from a parent's, which is great. Yeah, for a parent, yeah. Helping a child understand their emotions is massive and I guess an example of this is my little boy, so he's just turned, will turn two in November. But this was a story from before he turned two. My then three-year-old was having, you know, one of those emotional explosions mm-hmm. That we were talking about, crying, screaming, all those wonderful three-year-old, um, behaviors. And he came up to me and went, mummy, mummy, sad and signed and said the word sad to me and identified that feeling in his sister, and not even two, um, because he kind of had a way of expressing himself.

[00:16:13] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm.

[00:16:14] Megan Mahon: And, you know, and that feeds into it. So when a child can identify in somebody else, then that's the stepping to stone to them identifying in themselves. Yeah. And then they can regulate from there. So yeah, there's big benefits around social emotional development. Um, like we said, um, understanding it helps them understand us better as well and, you know, both ways. And then from a parenting perspective, I think. It's story from my husband. So when you're the primary, you know a lot of families, the mum is the primary carer.

[00:16:47] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:16:48] Megan Mahon: Whoever the other primary carer is often doesn't know the routine. They don't know the daily rhythm, so they can't predict exactly what's going to happen next. Yeah. Whereas. As the primary carer we can, we're like, oh yeah, it's 4 0 5. They're crying because they need a snack. Yeah. Or they need a drink of water or whatever it might be. So Remy started signing drink at about 13 months old. Mm-hmm. And my husband was just like, oh my God, this is amazing. I know what he wants now. Yes. I know exactly what he wants. Yes. And it's not just crying and him trying to guess what's going on. He was like, yes. Like I can, I can action this. Yes. I can provide a solution and, and did, and it just as like, as a dad, he was like, well this is great 'cause now I can actually participate more proactively and, and tend to their needs because he could understand them as well.

[00:17:40] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:17:41] Megan Mahon: So that was, that's always a nice,

[00:17:43] Dr Renee White: I I, that is such a great point because I find that, you know, when I am speaking with friends when I am helping out, you know, as a doula in people's houses, often the non birthing parent mm-hmm. As you say, doesn't, doesn't have that instinctive like nature of like, and, and this is hardwiring for us as mothers. Like we know tones and pitch mm-hmm. And things like that. And we're like. Yep. That's a hungry cry or, or someone's hurt or, you know, that type of thing. Yeah, and I, I still remember my daughter, she would've been like maybe seven weeks old and in the bassinet next to me, I had my eyes closed in the middle of the night and I was like.

[00:18:31] Dr Renee White: Oh, I, that's, that's a gas cry like she just needs to be like, sat up and like burped. Yeah. And I did that like instinctively, like got her up, did like a few kind of taps and then that's all she needed and she would just, you know, let out a huge burp and then straight back to sleep. Yeah. And I remember my husband saying to me the next day, how did you know that? And I was like, I don't know. And he's like. What do you mean you don't know? Like how did you know that that's what she needed? Yeah, and I was like, I'm not sure mate, let's, like, something

[00:19:04] Megan Mahon: I just did stop questioning my authority.

[00:19:07] Dr Renee White: Like my gut told me that that's exactly what she needed. And so I feel like, and, and there's two sides to the coin of that. It's like one, I feel like sometimes, and I've had these conversations with the non birthing partners, kind of like. I feel inadequate. Mm-hmm. I really want to help, but I don't know how, because I have no understanding or instinct of like what this child needs. And then you also get, which like I can definitely speak to is like that ungodly like resentment of like, I don't wanna be the default parent anymore. Yeah. Like can you just go speak to your dad? Like I say that all the time. Like you just walk past

[00:19:47] Megan Mahon: adult.

[00:19:48] Dr Renee White: Yes. You just walk past your dad like he can, he can sort this out for you. So any opportunity where I think both parents almost become like an equal playing field, I am totally down for that. Yeah. That would've been, yeah. So good in our house.

[00:20:04] Megan Mahon: Yeah, it, it's really, it's really, really helpful and I think the families that both parents kind of get on board and they both learn and they both kind of contribute. Those are the families that I see have the most success with their, with implementing signing in the home as well. And there's other fun things I guess that come along with it. You know, our family is, I'm a fluent Auslan interpreter, so obviously I can draw on signs all the time, and my mother-in-law is actually profoundly deaf, so she has bilateral cochlear implants, but she can sign and we sign frequently. So my husband has had exposure to sign language as well.

[00:20:41] Megan Mahon: Mm-hmm. And so, so we'll like sign things through the window or I'll be like, oh, I need a wine. Or you know, like we can communicate, we can communicate using sign like on like an intimate level as well, which is kind of nice. And I've had other families say the same thing. You know, they've, they've gone away with it and they're like, great. Now we know the sign for home when we're at a party and I'm, I wanna tap out. I just kind of give my husband a bit of a look and we use this sign of home and he's like, okay, cool. Wrap it up. And we leave. Like, it's this nice.

[00:21:12] Dr Renee White: That is so cool.

[00:21:14] Megan Mahon: You know, it works for, in lots of different sort of situations and Yeah. Yeah. The more buying in, the better. I think for the better.

[00:21:20] Dr Renee White: Meg, I have to ask you, 'cause I don't think I'm gonna be the only one thinking about this, but was it serendipitous that you ended up marrying someone who is a family member with profoundly deaf? Like,

[00:21:31] Megan Mahon: I don't know,

[00:21:32] Dr Renee White: were you, were you moving in the same circle? Like what were, and you could tell me like, mind your business Renee. We'll cut that outta the podcast. But like, that's interesting, don't you think?

[00:21:42] Megan Mahon: Yeah. Complete coincidence, absolute coincidence. And we, you know, we met in 2018 so it was a you know, an online app meeting because Okay. Lots of fam, you know, lots of couples met meeting,

[00:21:57] Dr Renee White: I met, I met my husband online. I'm the first person to be like, yeah.

[00:22:01] Megan Mahon: Are we, are we still ashamed to meet?

[00:22:03] Dr Renee White: I dunno. I had, I, I was doing a PhD. I did not have time to be scouting. I was too tired. I was like, you want me to go to a bar or a nightclub? I'm like, not interested.

[00:22:13] Megan Mahon: Yeah. Let's just flick through these people and make instant judgment calls. But anyhow, so we met up, we ended up meeting at a pub and. Like I was working teaching sign language in a primary school at the time. Yeah. And he, he did, he had no idea that I knew Auslan or sign language or anything like that. Okay. He had no idea. And we sat down, we were sort of talking about, you know, what we do for a living. And when I was like, oh, you know, I'm an Auslan interpreter. I'm teaching sign at a primary school. He was like, just this absolute gobsmacked, you know, gobsmacked like holy moly. And he's like, oh, well my mum's deaf, you know, she's worked in the deaf community. You might know some people and we kind of unpacked that.

[00:22:57] Megan Mahon: Actually one of her really good friends, I had interpreted for him many, many, many times. You know, he, he was doing TAFE courses and different things, so I was interpreting for him. So we did kind of, we had people that we knew, but that's not how Sean and I met. It was just

[00:23:15] Dr Renee White: Wow.

[00:23:15] Megan Mahon: Pure coincidence. Yeah. Okay, good.

[00:23:18] Dr Renee White: I just needed to know that. Thank you. Yeah,

[00:23:20] Megan Mahon: welcome.

[00:23:23] Dr Renee White: There's Renee's curiosity tick of approval. Thank you very much. Right. Um, okay, back on track. So, um, I wanna ask if someone is listening to the podcast and thinking, okay, how do I start this? Like, this sounds very interesting. I'm liking the sounds of these benefits. Yeah, yeah. Where does someone start with all of that?

[00:23:47] Megan Mahon: So I, in terms of like the first signs to do or?

[00:23:53] Dr Renee White: Yeah, like

[00:23:54] Megan Mahon: what are we talking about?

[00:23:55] Dr Renee White: Like are they, can they do a class with you or is there

[00:23:58] Megan Mahon: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:23:59] Dr Renee White: Is there a right or wrong way of doing it?

[00:24:02] Megan Mahon: Well, yes. I'll start with the right and the wrong way. Yeah, because the baby signing is huge in America.

[00:24:11] Dr Renee White: Okay.

[00:24:12] Megan Mahon: And it has been for a long time. If anyone's ever heard of Miss Rachel, you know yeah, internet sensation. She really advocates and promotes baby signing because of its amazing benefits, and she's amazing. Whether you like her or not, she's actually a really incredible human being and but the difficulty there is that she uses American Sign Language.

[00:24:35] Dr Renee White: Okay

[00:24:35] Megan Mahon: and all over the world there are different sign languages. It, regardless of whether they're English speaking countries or not, there are different sign languages all over the world.

[00:24:44] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:24:44] Megan Mahon: So. Can I nerd out on that?

[00:24:47] Dr Renee White: Yeah, you could totally nerd out. Welcome to the Science of Motherhood. Yeah,

[00:24:52] Megan Mahon: right. Okay. Um, so historically speaking, what happened was in Europe there were two different deaf schools. There was one in England and there was one in France, and this is the 18 hundreds. Mm-hmm. And then from there they, they kind of spread out across the world. So American Sign language is more closely related in terms of languages to French sign language than it is English sign language. Okay. Sorry British sign language. Yeah. So, and even like Irish sign language is completely different. British sign language, Australian sign language, American Sign Language and New Zealand sign language are all different.

[00:25:30] Dr Renee White: Oh my God. Yeah. Okay.

[00:25:33] Megan Mahon: Yeah. So when people are looking for resources online, um, often they'll just Google search baby sign language. Yeah. Um, and the first one will be American Sign Language, because that's where a lot of the resources are. Okay. So you know that that's probably the biggest cautionary tale is, you know, do a bit of research, make sure it's Australian sign language. Mm-hmm. Because we are here. Mm-hmm. And that's, you know, it's been a transferable skill, all these sorts of things. And in terms of learning, you know, there's, I, I'd probably recommend starting slow. Depends on the age of your children. Mm-hmm. But you know, just pick three or four or five signs, whatever you're comfortable with, and just build that habit because I think that's often the hardest thing for parents is to build the habit.

[00:26:20] Megan Mahon: They'll say to me, oh, I forgot. I forgot to sign this week. Okay, yeah, just pick one. Just pick one and be consistent and once you've. Built that habit and often it takes sort of four or five weeks for that habit to really kick in because I do, I run a playgroup course. So it's been sort of six weeks, all like various places around Melbourne and which is available also online just side note.

[00:26:45] Dr Renee White: Yeah. Yeah. I was gonna ask,

[00:26:49] Megan Mahon: yeah, so people across Australia can also access it, but often what happens is the first two weeks. Families come in and they're like, ah, I didn't sign it all. I forgot. I completely forgot it just like, because they haven't built that habit yet. Yeah. And then after three, four weeks, they're like, oh yeah, I was signing milk and I was signing finished, and I was signing more. Uh, and then by the end of the sort of six, seven week course, they're like, oh yeah, we're all over it now. We're all signing, we're going to parties. I'm signing to my husband because they've taken that time to build the habit. Yeah. And Yeah. And then you get families that, you know, their five month old is signing milk when, when they're hungry, and it's just,

[00:27:29] Dr Renee White: that would be a game changer.

[00:27:30] Megan Mahon: Yeah.

[00:27:31] Dr Renee White: Honestly.

[00:27:31] Megan Mahon: Yeah. So helpful.

[00:27:32] Dr Renee White: Oh my goodness. Okay, cool. Now I have to, I have to address the elephant in the room, which is, for some people there are, you know, kind of comments out there or theories or myths and I'd love for you to like debunk if you want to. Some people might suggest that signing would delay a baby's speech. Yeah. Is there any truth to that whatsoever?

[00:28:00] Megan Mahon: None whatsoever. None. So, and I hear this all the time, it's like the number one myth on the internet, and I think it's on baby center in the the US or something like, like something ridiculous like that. You know, that signing may delay baby speech and I can't find any research to suggest that nothing. Yeah, like it, it's just not true. And the reality is lots of speech therapists, lots of occupational therapists, physiotherapists, anybody working in early childhood intervention is probably, if they're good at what they do, they'll be using keyword signing, which is the same as baby signing and it taps into that kind of preverbal or nonverbal mechanism for communicating for children.

[00:28:44] Megan Mahon: So yeah, there's there's no foundation for that whatsoever. And when you look at how signing actually works, so what it does is babies naturally use, or I shouldn't say babies, I'm gonna use pre-verbal children. Yeah. Um, just to kind of broaden that a little bit. Yeah. Before a child can speak, they naturally use gesture. Like I talk with my hands all the time. Yeah, yeah. Um, yeah. Like we all do it, but babies naturally use it, particularly that sort of nine to 13 months. Mm-hmm. We see a lot of gesture naturally. So they reaching their arms up when they want to be picked up.

[00:29:23] Dr Renee White: Yeah. Oh, we had a lot of this, um. For all those listening at home. I'm kind of squeezing my hands together, but putting 'em out in front. Yeah. That was like, ma, ma, ma, ma, ma. Come get me.

[00:29:33] Megan Mahon: Yeah.

[00:29:34] Dr Renee White: Like, come, yeah, come get me.

[00:29:35] Megan Mahon: Come to me. Yeah. Or, or they'll reach out their hand and Yeah.

[00:29:38] Dr Renee White: That's the I want a snack.

[00:29:41] Megan Mahon: Yeah, exactly. When they want something. So gestures are a really important and really natural part of language development, because when children, like we were saying before, they understand a lot, but they can't act, they can't speak yet. Mm. So. They use gesture to communicate what they're thinking and what baby signing or keyword signing does is just kind of gives them more of what's there naturally anyway. Mm-hmm. Like a a, a child doesn't know the difference between a natural gesture of reaching their hands up and, you know, a formal sign from a different language.

[00:30:13] Megan Mahon: They just see it as a nonverbal communication tool essentially. Then coming back to how it doesn't impact on speech or does, but in a positive way. Yeah. What happens with children is if they, if you start signing with them and they have, um, effective communication with you because you understand them. So let's use the example of milk, right. So if they all of a sudden sign milk mm-hmm. And you say to them, oh, you want milk? Okay, great. And you go give them milk, breast milk, bottle milk, whatever it might be. Mm-hmm. Then they go, Ooh, that felt really good. So they get sort of that oxytocin milk that feels. Good. I like that reaction that I got from mum.

[00:31:00] Megan Mahon: Yeah. So they do it again and they do it again, and they do it again, and then they're interacting more. And then the more communication exchanges that a child has, the more opportunity they have to learn more language. Yeah. And that's not just sign, it's going to be spoken language and all these sorts of things. And what will eventually happen is they'll get to a point where they want to communicate more than they're capable of. Mm-hmm. Through sign. Mm-hmm. But they're motivated and they're confident communicators, so they will speak.

[00:31:32] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:31:34] Megan Mahon: And I think going back to that original point of, you know, late talkers, maybe there are cases of children who did talk late because of signing, but it's difficult to say whether that was because of the sign, but whether they would've been late talkers. Yeah. Anyway, they just would've been really frustrated, late talkers because they had no way of communicating.

[00:31:56] Dr Renee White: Absolutely.

[00:31:56] Megan Mahon: So, yeah, and, and it's, yeah. In terms of the science behind you know using baby sign, there's no, no indication that it, it delays speech at all. In fact, it just, a lot of the research is showing that it improves, you know, kids that learn sign have larger vocabularies at three and they have, you know, more effective communication. Even anecdotally from the families that I've worked with in the last couple of years, um, you know, I've bumped into them. When their child's two and you're having a conversation with a 2-year-old.

[00:32:31] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:32:32] Megan Mahon: Because they've got this, you know, this solid language base. Yeah. And it's, it's always lovely.

[00:32:38] Dr Renee White: Mm. Are there any other myths or misconceptions out there about baby signing?

[00:32:43] Megan Mahon: Not that I can think of at the top of my head. Boop, pause. Was there something specific that you were

[00:32:49] Dr Renee White: No, I just kind of thought if we can take the opportunity to, just

[00:32:54] Megan Mahon: to bust any myth

[00:32:55] Dr Renee White: de debunk anything, any roadblocks or normal challenges that people kind of would, would put up? Like I, I guess like have you ever come across with like, I don't know, it's like some families, there's like one parent who's like totally on board and the other parent's like I just don't know if this is gonna work. Like do you get that at all?

[00:33:18] Megan Mahon: Not really, I think, but

[00:33:20] Dr Renee White: they're generally, yeah, both on board. That's good.

[00:33:22] Megan Mahon: Yeah. I think a lot of the time both families are on board or, and this is terrible, just a, a really sort of absent dad. Okay. Or like, like that's the only time, like Yeah. When it's, and it's not so much that they care or don't care, it's just that that's kind of how the role that that person has in the family isn't actively participating. But to this point, I haven't. And so what, since 2022 was when I started teaching Baby Sign and I've taught dozens of families since then and I've taught hundreds of children signing over the years, and it's, in the last couple of years, it's been dozens of families keyword signing. I haven't had, I've. Only ever had positive feedback from 'em. Yeah. Yeah. My kids are doing really well. You know, we're loving it. It's so helpful. I've not had one person come back to me. Well, that was a waste of my time.

[00:34:13] Dr Renee White: Yeah, right.

[00:34:15] Megan Mahon: It hasn't happened. Like the families that do participate in it. See benefit and Yeah, I, I've heard anecdotally stories like you were saying, of children who've had delayed speech, but it's sort of like, well, those families probably would've had a late talker anyway. Mm-hmm. And they just would've been really frustrated.

[00:34:33] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:34:33] Megan Mahon: But no otherwise. The only other barrier, I guess, is around this definition between like Auslan or Australian sign language and baby signing and keyword signing, which is sort of a political conversation with the deaf community around, you know, okay, taking our language and this sort of stuff. That's a whole other conversation.

[00:34:56] Dr Renee White: No, that's totally fine. I guess for me, like, uh, kind of coming back to that, you know, how would you start out and, you know, get, kind of going on this if, if you can't, if. If someone wants to get involved. Yeah. What would your advice be in terms of what are the most important aspects of signing, um, with your baby? Like obviously you've touched on consistency. Yeah. But are there any other things where you're like, if you want this to work, these are the things you absolutely need to do.

[00:35:29] Megan Mahon: Yeah. Yeah. So definitely consistency. So building that habit around signing every day. Um, and I think that when it comes to language development, more is more, um, it's not that less is more, more is more. So the more language that you can expose your children to, the better they are going to be and I think actually one of the biggest misconceptions that parents have in general about language development is that kids aren't very clever because they can't talk yet.

[00:35:58] Dr Renee White: Oh no, they're so they're actually, I always say this, I'm like, they are more clever than us.

[00:36:03] Megan Mahon: A hundred percent children

[00:36:04] Dr Renee White: just, they've not been filtered.

[00:36:06] Megan Mahon: That's right.

[00:36:07] Dr Renee White: And squashed.

[00:36:08] Megan Mahon: Yeah. And, and I, like I say, I say this all the time, and it might be a bit obscure, but like human babies are really, really clever. Yes. Just, they're so clever. They're so capable. And we underestimate all the time, like I know I've done it with my children, underestimated actually how capable they are, how much they know, how much they understand. So, don't hold back because you think that they're not going to understand mm-hmm. Or think that they're not going to get it. Mm-hmm. You know, it's teach them the signs for not just the, the routine things. I think that's something that a lot of families do. They go, okay, I'm gonna teach them the sign for milk more, eat and drink.

[00:36:48] Megan Mahon: Cause those are the functional signs, and they're really easy and they're really important. Mm-hmm. And for a little baby, it's true. Your whole world kind of revolves around those routines, but very quickly they come out of that and they want to tell you, Hey, look, I can see a bird, or Look, mummy, there's a helicopter. Like they want to be able to talk to you about things that they're interested in as well. So, give them, give them the opportunity to talk about that stuff as well. Mm. Like I remember when my daughter, actually, this is a really good example of how clever kids are and beyond our expectation as well. So when my daughter was 15 months old, we were having breakfast and I was trying desperately to get a video of her signing finished.

[00:37:34] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:37:35] Megan Mahon: I was like, come on, I know you can do it. I was like, we're finished. Our breakfast we're finished. And she wouldn't, she didn't sign finished at all, but she did say za, za and I was and signing something to me and I was like, what's this? And I went, oh, she's signing same, same, oh, at 15 and because we had all finished our breakfast, so what she wanted to communicate to me at 15 months old was that mummy? We're all the same because we've all finished, finished our breakfast. And I was like, holy moly. Yeah, because we had, I'd been modeling that sign to her, you know, for quite a while. Oh look, it's all the same.

[00:38:20] Dr Renee White: Oh my gosh.

[00:38:21] Megan Mahon: Like it just through play. Yeah. Like it wasn't, you know, intentionally taught per se. And she said that at 15 months old and it just blew my mind. I was like, wow. Who would,

[00:38:32] Dr Renee White: did you get that on film?

[00:38:34] Megan Mahon: I did get it on film. I did get it on film and I was like, who would've thought that a 15 month old baby. Was concerned with the concept of sameness.

[00:38:44] Dr Renee White: Oh my God.

[00:38:45] Megan Mahon: But because she had the lang, like the signing skills to communicate. Yeah. I was like, yep, got this. And if she, if she didn't sign, she was just saying, za, za, za

[00:38:56] Dr Renee White: yes.

[00:38:56] Megan Mahon: I, I would've had no idea what she would.

[00:38:58] Dr Renee White: Yeah I would've been like Okay, sure.

[00:39:00] Megan Mahon: Yeah. Okay, sure. But because she added the sign, I was like, yep, I know exactly what you're trying to tell me and it was just like, wow.

[00:39:09] Dr Renee White: Oh my goodness. Do you find, um, so you've got two children?

[00:39:13] Megan Mahon: Yeah.

[00:39:14] Dr Renee White: Do you find that they sign to one another?

[00:39:16] Megan Mahon: Not look, bit and pieces,

[00:39:18] Dr Renee White: maybe not yet.

[00:39:19] Megan Mahon: Yeah, look, they probably will. So we have three languages in our home as well. So we've got Italian, English, and Auslan.

[00:39:27] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:39:27] Megan Mahon: And I find at the moment actually, that they're pretending to talk in Italian when they're,

[00:39:33] Dr Renee White: oh my God, that's so cute.

[00:39:35] Megan Mahon: But they, but they can't actually talk in Italian, so they're just making up this gibberish that kind of sounds Italian and it's quite funny. Yeah, but look, they, they do use signing, but it's not like this kind of private talk thing. They know that I'm gonna know.

[00:39:49] Dr Renee White: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:39:50] Megan Mahon: And they know we can't really use sign because mum's gonna know what we're talking about and she can see through the window. Yes. But look, we do in that way. We do with my 4-year-old, and she's, you know. Talking in, you know, full sentences and imagination and all this sort of stuff. But she still uses sign as well. You know, she was outside, I was in the kitchen looking at her through the kitchen window and she was signing to me, you know, look, mum, the sprinkler's finished. Can you come and turn it back on? So they still use it as a tool and a strategy to communicate when, yeah. It's effective.

[00:40:23] Dr Renee White: That's so, so clever.

[00:40:24] Megan Mahon: Yeah. Oh my goodness.

[00:40:26] Dr Renee White: Hey Meg, we are, I'm mindful of time, so, mm-hmm. I was gonna jump into our rapid fire before we do, and there'll be time to talk about your course online and everything. But was there anything else that you wanted to add about Baby Sign before we dive into that?

[00:40:41] Megan Mahon: Oh I just, I just really would like more families to know about it. Yeah. 'cause and, and, and from a really selfless place of, it's just so helpful. It's just,

[00:40:52] Dr Renee White: oh God. Yeah.

[00:40:53] Megan Mahon: It's like, it's probably the most underutilised, most, like easily implemented effective tool. Yeah. That parents can kind of draw on. That helps now, but also into the future. Like there's,

[00:41:07] Dr Renee White: yes. Yeah. That's a, yeah. That's what I think is so beneficial. Like that investment, which appears to be like quite a small investment. Yeah. You know, in terms of you know, no one's asking you to like, shell out a huge chunk of cash or

[00:41:23] Megan Mahon: No.

[00:41:23] Dr Renee White: You know, take your whole family anywhere to do something. Like, it seems like a very small investment for like huge dividends. Yeah. Particularly in those toddler years and if anyone is listening and you are not a toddler stage yet.

[00:41:37] Megan Mahon: It's coming.

[00:41:38] Dr Renee White: It's coming.

[00:41:40] Megan Mahon: It's inevitable.

[00:41:40] Dr Renee White: It's, it's, it's not fairy floss and lollipops, but there are tools that you could definitely implement now to kind of, as you say, set yourself up for Yeah, a bit of a smoother transition for all of you. Like there's nothing worse than a frustrated explosive toddler, I feel.

[00:41:57] Megan Mahon: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I guess the only other thing that I would add to that is, and this is probably a little bit darker or a bit less uplifting than other things that we've been talking about. But the, I guess the other part of what I'm doing professionally is working with children with language delays. Mm-hmm. Whether that's because they have a condition, developmental delay, autism, there's a whole range of things that impact on speech and language. Mm-hmm. And none of those parents were raising their babies to have a speech delay yeah. Or language delay. Yeah. And we're using keyword signing to kind of support them and bridge them into having better language communication and speech.

[00:42:42] Megan Mahon: So I guess the other thing that I see it as, you know, with this, really sad trend towards more children having speech and language delays. Mm-hmm. I see baby signing as kind of protective against that. So if you can implement these things early, then you can prevent that from happening and I don't mean to use that as like a fear, fear,

[00:43:04] Dr Renee White: No but, it makes sense though.

[00:43:07] Megan Mahon: Yeah, like we see, we're seeing this trend of, you know, if anybody's in the industry, you know, speech therapists have two year wait lists. Like it's ridiculous in Melbourne and, and people in Regional Victoria, they may never be seen by a speech therapist. You know, they, it's just, it's a really concerning, I guess, in terms of that trajectory for our kids at the moment. And yeah, so I guess it's something, like you said, it's really simple. It's really easy. It's not a huge investment. Once you build that habit, it comes so easily to you. Yeah. And it's something that, yeah, it protects against that because if you can support your child to have better communication, better communication leads to better language and better language leads to better speech.

[00:43:55] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:43:55] Megan Mahon: Like, it's just kind of the, the flow on effect that it has.

[00:43:58] Dr Renee White: Yeah. They're all really good points. Thanks for raising that. Okay, we're gonna dive into our rapid fire. The first question straight off the bat, what's your top tip for mums?

[00:44:09] Megan Mahon: Start with a couple of signs if you're in that, you know, that really intense newborn stage or like just those first six to 12 months of motherhood is, it's a lot. Yeah. There's a lot going on. So just start with three signs and just do those consistently. And then when you're feeling that you've got the cognitive function to do more, then do that. Yeah. You know, don't put too much pressure on yourself. Just do your best and, and, and just start with, you know, some basic, easy to implement signs and, and it will get easier.

[00:44:41] Dr Renee White: Yeah. Good tip. Do you have a go-to resource, whether it be a book, a workshop, and like this can be outside of the realms of baby signing as well. Like when you were becoming a mum, was there anything that you kind of lent on? You were like, oh man, everyone needs this? Could be a poem. Some people have said poems as well, or a quote.

[00:45:07] Megan Mahon: Look, I, I have a background of meditation. Mm-hmm. So I don't know if you've ever heard of the Vipassana meditation?

[00:45:15] Dr Renee White: No.

[00:45:17] Megan Mahon: No. Okay. That you can do some research after. So it's a, an ancient Buddhist meditation practice, and they have this concept of, impermanence

[00:45:26] Dr Renee White: okay.

[00:45:26] Megan Mahon: Nothing in this world is permanent, if that's the only thing that's guaranteed is change. Yeah, change is inevitable. So I guess for those early months, like when it feels so intense and like, you know, you're sleep deprived and it's never going to end, it will end.

[00:45:42] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:45:42] Megan Mahon: Everything is impermanent. This intensity will change. So I guess I just drew on that a lot, was just like being mindful, calming my body down and, and just remembering that nothing, nothing is forever.

[00:45:54] Dr Renee White: Yeah. Just different seasons.

[00:45:56] Megan Mahon: Yeah, that's right. That's right.

[00:45:58] Dr Renee White: I like that. I might get you to send me like a link or something, 'cause we'll put that in the show notes 'cause I, I, I really like that idea. The last thing we always ask our guests, which we borrow from Brene Brown. What do you keep on your bedside table?

[00:46:13] Megan Mahon: A sippy cup with water.

[00:46:16] Dr Renee White: Is it yours?

[00:46:18] Megan Mahon: That's not for me. No. No. We, we co-sleep with, um, with Remy, our 2-year-old. Yeah. And he's just, he's a thirsty kid. He always wake up in the middle of the night asking for a drink. So we have a so sippy cup on the bedside table.

[00:46:32] Dr Renee White: Love it.

[00:46:33] Megan Mahon: Other than a light, that's literally all I have on the bedside table.

[00:46:37] Dr Renee White: No, less is more. Less is more. Uh, yeah. Yeah, my bedside table is absolutely abysmal at the moment. So, um, yeah, I have hardly any room for my sippy cup on the, uh, on, on the bedside table at the moment, but yes. Well, it has been amazing to have you on the podcast.

[00:46:56] Megan Mahon: Thank you

[00:46:56] Dr Renee White: for those listening. How can they get in touch with you? How can they get involved in, um, your course as well?

[00:47:02] Megan Mahon: Yeah, sure. So, um, there's multiple options for people in Melbourne, particularly the northern suburbs of Melbourne. Um, I've got a weekly playgroup so you can come along with your baby. Outside of that, there is an on, I have an online course. Mm-hmm. So it's recently updated, seven weeks. Lots of information, more in depth stuff like we're talking about here, how to support literacy in those early days and just kind of, you know, support your child to to be. You know, prepared for communication essentially. Yeah. And then I also have a little book, wrote a book called Tiny Hands, Big Words, Everyday Signs for Australian Babies, and that's available on my website.

[00:47:49] Dr Renee White: Amazing.

[00:47:50] Megan Mahon: Yeah.

[00:47:51] Dr Renee White: My goodness. Thank you again for coming on the podcast. If anyone has any questions or they wanna reach out to you, we will have all your details in the show notes. But thank you again for joining us.

[00:48:02] Megan Mahon: Thank you.

[00:48:03] Dr Renee White: And enlightening me. I have gone from, I have no idea what this is to, yeah. Why didn't I do this the first time?

[00:48:11] Megan Mahon: Ah, hopefully. Yeah. That's great. You're not gonna go back for number two.

[00:48:15] Dr Renee White: No, we are done and dusted. Uh, yeah. One and done here. Yeah. Plus I think the age gap. Well, my daughter, my daughter keeps asking me for another baby, and every time she seriously, seriously asks, I just hand another cat over. I'm like, so we've got two cats and a dog

[00:48:34] Megan Mahon: every few years you're getting another cat. You're doing amazing.

[00:48:36] Dr Renee White: Well, I think, I think I persuaded her quite recently that we definitely are not going to have one 'cause I said, you know, those nice holidays we go on, we won't be doing that. You know all those toys that you've got. You'll have to share those and she was like, oh no, mummy, I'm not doing that. And I was like, okay, there we go. Idea. See, not good deal.

[00:48:57] Megan Mahon: That's great. There's always ways to persuade them, isn't it?

[00:49:01] Dr Renee White: Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. So yeah, fingers crossed we've put that one to bed with her. So, uh, yeah we just hang out with a lot of other children, and then she picks up some pseudo brothers and sisters along the way.

[00:49:14] Dr Renee White: Yeah. So, yeah.

[00:49:16] Megan Mahon: Yeah. Great.

[00:49:17] Dr Renee White: Excellent. Well, everyone, we will speak to you and next week, uh, with our check in Tuesday episode. All right, thanks, Meg. If you loved this episode, please hit the subscribe button and leave a review. If you know someone out there who would also love to listen to this episode, please hit the share button so they can benefit from it as well.

[00:49:41] Dr Renee White: You've just listened to another episode of The Science of Motherhood proudly presented by Fill Your Cup, Australia's first doula village. Head to our website ifillyourcup.com to learn more about our birth and postpartum doula offerings where every mother we pledge to be the steady hand that guides you back to yourself. Ensuring you feel nurtured, informed, and empowered so you can fully embrace the joy of motherhood with confidence. Until next time, bye.