0:00:05.3 Vickie Brett: Welcome to the Inclusive Education Project. I'm Vickie Brett.

0:00:08.9 Amanda Selogie: I'm Amanda Selogie. We're two civil rights lawyers on a mission to change the conversation about education, civil rights, and modern activism.

0:00:19.3 VB: Each week we're gonna explore new topics which are going to educate and empower others.

0:00:24.7 AS: And give them a platform to enact change in education and level the playing field. Welcome back, friends.

0:00:34.3 VB: Hello. This school year's felt like a lifetime.

0:00:37.8 AS: It really has. I feel like so much has happened in the beginning of the school year. Not only just with dealing with the normal back to school craziness that we always have, but it's just feels more chaotic than normal because so much is unknown. I think we talked about this before. I mean, there's so many pending lawsuits to fight, a lot of the changes, a lot of the cuts in funding and staffing, and it's just, we don't know. We don't know what the Supreme Court's gonna say on all of these. We don't know ultimately where we're gonna land. We have some employees going back to work, some not. So we're gonna try to keep you guys posted as much as... Once we get more information. But...

0:01:25.3 VB: Yeah, I think these are the deeper dives, right? The podcast and something that we have mentioned, we've kind of teased a little bit, but also because things are happening so quickly and Amanda and I try to keep just on top of the educational component. I think if you try to keep on top of immigration and everything else that's happening, I mean, a cursory overview is great, but for us, we've really had to dive deep. And something that occurred in the spring that you all may have forgotten about, but we sure have not, is the Supreme Court decision where there was $65 million in federal educator grant funding. And we are chomping at the bit to speak to Dr. Corbin today because she reached out to us and was like I'm ready to dive in on this. And we were just like so excited. Dr. Corbin, thank you so much for joining us.

0:02:17.4 Annalies Corbin: Absolutely. I'm happy to be here. Thank you for having me.

0:02:20.2 VB: I feel like Amanda and I are the only ones saying the sky is falling. The sky is falling, continuously. And so it's nice to have somebody that has the same expertise, or not the same expertise, but a different area of expertise than us.

0:02:34.3 AS: Well, and willing to talk about it because there are a number of people across the country who are just either afraid or just not willing to speak out. And it's unfortunate because everyday parents, everyday teachers, everyday students, they need to know this information. We need to be talking about it.

0:02:54.1 VB: Yeah. And the last episode we had talked about was just a solo with Amanda and I, kind of breaking down what had happened in August with the Department of Justice, the Office of Civil Rights, basically withholding funding from four or five Virginia school districts. And this is just another in this effort to dismantle not only the Department of Education, but DEI. I mean, it's all interrelated. And Dr. Corbin, I just wanted you to just very briefly give a little bit of background to our listeners of who you are, what you do, and what we're gonna be speaking about today.

0:03:27.7 AC: Sure. Well, I'm happy to be here. So I am the founder and CEO of the Past Foundation. We're based in Columbus, Ohio, but we work all over the US and other parts of the world. And our work is really around education, R&D. And so for the last 25 years, we've been deeply, deeply immersed in sort of thinking about what should education look like, what is it that kids really need, what are we preparing kids for? And just really trying to be not just a thought leader, but a thought partner with schools, districts, state and federal government when possible, as we really start thinking about what should we be doing, what should we let go of, what should we be doing moving forward? And at the end of the day, what do our kids really need?

0:04:15.4 VB: So you were paying quite a bit of attention to the Supreme Court, and it was Department of Education versus California. Can you kind of give a brief summary of how that came to be? What was that about? Everybody knows, oh, 65 million withholding. But what was happening there?

0:04:31.9 AC: I think the main thing that people need to understand is that at the end of the day, the questions are really getting called about when and where and what are we doing as a nation. Right? That really gets to the heart and soul of how we provide equitable opportunity across schools. When I step back and really look at and think about what's going on with their... With all of these different pieces and parts and thinking about the dismantling of the Department of Education and the implications of all of this, that's the heart and soul of this, is really, really how do we move forward and think about what's equitable.

0:05:16.4 VB: Yeah. And I think people get caught up on the acronyms DEI. We've run into people that are like it's not even a big deal. It's fine. And for us, inclusion is everything and that is unnamed diversity, equity and inclusion. We, for a long time as a nation went to barely accepting people with special needs. I mean, we had the mental health hospitals that were done away by the Reagan administration. And I'm gonna go down a rapid... But... And then we're trying... I felt that we were coming to a place of not just only acceptance, but understanding, right? And then beyond understanding is, it just is. Right?

0:06:03.6 AC: Right, right. Well...

0:06:05.6 VB: Just like someone... Go ahead.

0:06:05.9 AC: And the reality of it is, we're never going to get to the heart and soul of these pieces, right? If we can't continue to provide high quality teacher training programs, teacher training grants, we can't make sure that we don't have all of those effective educator opportunities. And the reality is, yes, states, and some will, choose to be able to find the funds to do that themselves, but we really, really need a bigger opportunity than that. Because here's what happens, or this is what I see that happens as it relates to funding. And this is across the board. It's not one administration or another. We've been seeing this for decade upon decade upon decade, right? And that is that, we dump some funding into something, but we don't have a mechanism to make the impact of that sustainable for the long term. And every two or three years, every two or three cycles, every new administration that comes in, we're like hey, but this wasn't my idea, right? We rip a band aid off and we slap a new one in and we say this is the new silver bullet, right?

0:07:21.1 AC: And so one of the implications, the legal process that's been going on with this $65 million, is that these programs were programs that either had been around for a while, right? This teacher quality partnership in particular, they'd been around, they'd been proven, they have research behind them, but more importantly, they had current research happening within them. And so when we stop those things, and the same thing can be applied in other areas of federal funding tied to research, stuff's in process. We've spent millions, if not billions of dollars getting to that point. And we halt them midstream or mid design cycle, if you will, of whatever that particular research or that program was, if and when, and I do believe it'll be a win, right, these things come back, we have to, in many cases, start over. It is money that we're losing.

0:08:16.8 AS: And it's stalling of progress. We've talked about in the past about how we have so much research being done on education and child development and how the brain works in our country, and it's always so fascinating to see how other countries take our research and use it, and we seem to just flounder. And part of it is because of these processes and the stalling and having to start over, and it's frustrating.

0:08:40.3 AC: Right, right, right. Well, and the reality is, the end of the story on this one has not been written. Right? Because there's still stuff happening with this, and I predict there will be stuff happening with this for some period of time. But in the meantime, it's not helping us. Certainly not helping kids.

0:08:57.7 VB: Absolutely not. I mean, the direct impact on even the... As people like to say, on the fringe. Right? Like students with disabilities...

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0:09:07.4 S?: They're the most vulnerable.

0:09:08.5 VB: Yeah, right.

0:09:08.6 AC: No, I'm just saying, it's just not that. And the other thing too, I think that's really important in this conversation is that we often talk about how these types of resources, to your point, right, they're going to help students that really, really need that for a variety of reasons. But the other thing that is going on here that I think that's really, really important not to lose sight of, is this is a mechanism that is about national security. It's a mechanism about citizenship. It's a mechanism about our future economy. Right? And what we're creating by doing things like this is we are not acknowledging that there are gaps there already. Right? And that by eliminating these types of programs and funding, we're going to make the gaps only greater. And that's across the board. Right? Because what we do in education impacts everything about who we are, what we do, what we're capable of. It's not the singular thing that we can mess with that over here and then anticipate that it's not gonna have a cascade effect. I mean, education is everything, right?

0:10:08.9 AS: Yeah. It's not just childcare for the kids while the parents go to school. But I think that's what's been so frustrated over the decades. For me, when I look at politics and politicians and how everything works and how few people talk about education as being the important thing for us to be focusing on and how disruptive some of the changes have been. And unfortunately, we just haven't seen a priority. And I think to a certain extent even everyday Americans sometimes don't see it as a priority, even though they do, obviously during the pandemic, we saw parents really struggling with their kids and seeing how much work teachers do. But then of course, we bounced back to being like eh, whatever, we're not gonna fight for a better education. Kind of something that is very frustrating that we're not placing the emphasis because it is so important. It is the bedrock of our entire... I mean, educating kids brings them into the community. The point is to make them independent, self sufficient, productive members of our community, our society.

0:11:11.4 VB: And so Dr. Corbin, what... Because your work has been in these innovative solutions and educational reform, when that money was there, regardless of who was president. But what is the effect now? Right? Because it's not just the funding, as Amanda and I have talked in prior episodes. It is an effort, a collected effort by this administration and the Republicans to do away with these kind of bedrocks. Right? Like you had said the... To the seed and like these had been around for a while. There was research, there was ongoing research. What's next? What can we do? Or what are you doing to try to continue and forge educational reform in these times?

0:12:02.6 AC: Yeah, I mean, I think that one of the really big impacts is that we collectively are struggling to find enough high quality educators. Right? Process has gotten harder. So educators who were in the classroom that were participating or taking advantage of sort of the outputs of these programs, even if you weren't directly participating in one of these federally funded programs yourself, the... Because of the research, the data that came from the programs themselves, they had a direct impact on what you did in the classroom, potentially. Right? And so some of those pieces have started to disappear and a workforce that was already tired and exhausted and frustrated. Right? I mean, well before this happened. Right?

0:12:48.9 VB: Yeah, well before. Yeah, yeah.

0:12:50.7 AC: Yeah. And so that's only being amplified as a result of these kinds of things. So I think it's really, really important that we step back and not lose sight of the fact that we were talking about a workforce that was struggling before this decision. The flip side of that then. So just playing devil's advocate here, if you will. So the flip side of all of this is what we're hearing from the feds currently, whether it sticks or not, that's for another debate. But currently this is what we have. Right? And so basically the message that's being sent is, we want education to be controlled and mandated by the individual states. Okay. So there's a whole host of different ways you could take that piece of the conversation, obviously.

0:13:37.0 AC: But the reality of it is, what can we do right now? We have to roll up our sleeves in the short term and be deeply involved in what's happening in our own state governments as it relates to state education. Because this, right now is the only thing we have. Right? So that's my call to action to folks, is to say, look, as educators, you have a whole host of ideas, of experience, of years of doing this. Right? And we are in a space right now where we spend too much time creating the rules around schooling and not spending time thinking about the implications of learning. So my call to action to folks is, okay. Right. We may or may not be able to have an impact at the federal level right this moment, but we need to spend the time, energy, and the work at the state levels to advocate for the things that you know kids need. And we can, in fact, all do that.

0:14:47.8 AS: Yeah. And even at the local level, getting involved with the school board, whether it's running for a school board or just going to the meetings, just paying attention to what's being done.

0:14:56.8 AC: And I think that the other thing too, right, is, in lots of places and lots of scenarios, our state, our local, our state, even our federal rules, they're more guidelines. Right? There are things we have to do mostly, and there are exceptions, obviously, but for the most part, those are recommendations that are being legislated at the state level, but they tend to be handing down for some local control. So the question then, as an educator becomes, okay, what does this say that I have to do? But does it actually say how I have to do that? Right? Because as an educator, I know what my kids need, or I should know what my kids need. I know them best. I know the families. But what can I do as an individual classroom teacher to make the experience my students have currently as engaging and dynamic and about them as I can possibly make it?

0:15:55.1 VB: Yeah. Because what is happening is it's no longer kind of this area... It's very much this talking head. Right? Of like let's give it back and let's do it. And it's like okay, you do that, but it's still not going to be what you want it to be. Whatever the Trump administration is trying to gather. Right? Maybe in some states. But for us, a lot of times it just, sometimes it works with the teacher and sometimes it doesn't. It doesn't mean that anybody is doing anything wrong. They may be following the IEP, they may be doing everything, but it's just not working. Right? And we cannot change the way in which a teacher teaches. Right? And so sometimes the solution that we have is we just change teachers. And again, it's nobody's fault. It's just sometimes you get along with people and sometimes you don't. It's just the vibe. Right?

0:16:48.0 VB: And I think that a lot of people don't understand that, okay, all this bigger stuff is happening, but the way that you're breaking it down is that once you get involved and you really kind of see what's happening, and then even just as an educator, just doing what you know is right for your students, not your own personal agenda or ego, oftentimes those are the better teachers that we see. Right? Because they're taking the noise out of it because that doesn't belong in their classroom. Kindness belongs in their classroom. Right? Diversity belongs in their classroom. Inclusion belongs in their classroom. And we can still see that maybe it's because we're still in California, I don't know. But I think that that's a really good nugget for administrators and teachers to hold on to in the sense that you're still doing what's best for your children that are in front of you.

0:17:43.5 AC: Yeah. And when... And I've interviewed hundreds, thousands of teachers over the last 25 years, and especially as I had a book come out last year, and so I really dug deep in with interviewing teachers, and it is pretty rare that I find a teacher who will tell me that they went into education to cause harm.

0:18:03.8 VB: Right, right.

0:18:04.8 AC: I mean, let's be real here. 99.9% of educators went into this field because they love learning, they loved school. They want kids to love it as much as they did. So that's the other thing, too. Right? You're talking about a group of people who are absolutely committed to the profession, who have gotten stuck inside of systems that haven't evolved for the needs that we have right now. And these people are... They're fighting the good fight.

0:18:38.7 AS: Yeah. It is so hard. I have an aunt that's a special ed teacher, and she's about to be retirement almost 25 years. And I was about to go into special education teaching myself, and I learned so much from her and she is an amazing, amazing teacher. But just how much red tape there is, how much the system completely goes against what her instincts are to support her students. And that's part of the reason I went to law school instead of going through my credentials, because it's such a frustrating system. And we try to tell parents that all the time when they're up against a teacher, it's usually not the teacher, that really is the problem. I'm sure there's ones that have really old trainings and they think one way and there might be bad actors, but for the most part, these teachers want to. But they have to protect themselves too. There's only so much they can do within the system themselves. They're fighting such a good fight, especially since Covid Right? They had to be so creative at that time. But it's the system itself.

0:19:38.8 AC: Yeah. And it's really funny too, because I get asked the question all the time about the system and people are talking about, well, the system is broken. And I push back on that and I'm like no, I don't think so. The system's not broken. It's functioning exactly as it was designed 150 years ago. It's just obsolete. Right? This is the problem. Right? So we are trying to fix something that is fix resistant. Right? Because it's an engineered system. Right? And you have to understand sort of systems thinking and systems understanding. But at the end of the day, there comes a moment, right? And I think there comes a moment in human history and you can apply it to any number of topics, where we just make the decision that this thing, whatever this thing is, it's used up, it's done. So what's the next great iteration of the intent of that thing?

0:20:34.3 VB: Right, right. And we had daydreamed that the pandemic was going to overhaul and maybe reset us and just and in the last few years, we've seen just such, this like death grip, right? Almost like the hand coming out of the grave and being like no, we will hold on to this archaic way in which we educate and we are never gonna... And it's just what? The diversity in which these teachers are seeing their students, is not what it was, absolutely not what it was even 20 years ago. And withholding this money, that is to help and prep teachers, new teachers, old teachers, everybody in between, is really disheartening. And I appreciate your call to action. We do tend to try to give people something. Right? We wanna end in a way that we are all in this together. And we're not asking you to go and protest and stop your... But just even like Amanda said, being aware of what is even happening in your local school district can really impact so much, not just in your child's life, but in the children that... If people wanted to kind of reach out to you more about the educational reform and innovative solutions that you are at the forefront of, how can they contact you?

0:22:04.3 AC: Sure. The easiest way, well, you can find me on social media just at Annalies Corbin and most of the different channels, you'll find me there. But you can also reach out, go to the Past Foundation website, and that's just Past Foundation P-A-S-T foundation.org, and that you can reach out through that and that will get to me as well. And there's all kinds of things that we are pushing out, putting out in terms of what's sort of happening in the world of education. You can subscribe and listen to Learning Unboxed, that's our podcast, and we talk about and highlight the good things that are happening in education and really sort of talk about those pieces and parts. So there's a variety of different ways that you can engage in the work that we're doing, and we really get excited when people do because we like folks that ask a lot of questions and more importantly, we like folks that wanna roll up their sleeves and say, hey, let's do something different.

0:22:58.2 VB: Absolutely. I mean, you have emphasized the fight for an equitable education. It's far from over and we need that type of vigilance and we really appreciate the work that you're doing and your time today. Thank you so much for coming on.

0:23:15.7 AC: Absolutely. Thank you for having me.

0:23:18.0 VB: All right, listeners, we will talk to you soon.

0:23:21.2 AS: Bye.

0:23:22.1 VB: Bye-bye.

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