0:00:05.4 Vickie Brett: Welcome to the Inclusive Education Project. I'm Vickie Brett.

0:00:12.6 Amanda Selogie: I'm Amanda Selogie. We're two civil rights lawyers on a mission to change the conversation about education, civil rights, and modern activism.

0:00:18.4 VB: Each week we're going to explore new topics which are going to educate and empower others.

0:00:26.1 AS: And give them a platform to enact change in education and level the playing field.

0:00:32.1 VB: Welcome back listeners.

0:00:34.8 AS: Hi friends.

0:00:36.6 VB: This is a fun episode because today is election day and we wanted to keep it fun and light, but also still kind of still talk about the advocacy work that we do and how challenges have, you know, a lot of the marginalized communities have faced challenges and we're hoping by the end of today we are in a better place than we were nine years ago when all this started. [laughter]

0:01:03.5 AS: We're definitely on the precipice of going in one of two directions with our education system. And we've talked about this a lot about how much grassroots efforts really is tending to be what leads to change. We don't have enough politicians or our leaders really looking at education and disability rights and reform in the same way that like we talk about it in this space. And our goal as always with this podcast is to try to get more people talking about this and having conversations and changing the way we talk about education and disability rights and civil rights and how we're supporting this community. So we're really excited about our guest today.

0:01:46.6 VB: Yeah. You've probably seen him on your FYP page on TikTok, Patrick Jones, also known as Mr. Jones X. Thank you so much for coming onto our podcast.

0:01:57.6 AS: Thank you for having me.

0:02:00.5 VB: So Patrick, can you kind of give our listeners a little bit of your background, a little bit of an introduction of yourself?

0:02:07.3 Patrick Jones: That's the toughest question for me when people ask about my background, 'cause I never really know what to say. I never really know what to say. If we were talking about like my life as a working person, I started out, I would say the bulk of my career was spent in finance. I was a finance director for one of like the largest automotive chains in the DC Metro area.

0:02:27.8 VB: Oh, okay.

0:02:28.8 PJ: After that, I left and went to Ashley Furniture and I managed for them as well. And then I decided one day that I was tired of glass ceilings. And it seemed like as a Black man, it was going to be very hard for me to elevate myself past a certain position. And I made enough dollars doing the things that I did. And I say this all the time, I would rather feed my soul than feed my pockets.

0:02:58.5 VB: Mm-hmm.

0:03:00.3 PJ: I was always involved in community projects, but I decided that that was going to be my focus. And so I started working with various nonprofits and local thought leaders and community organizers. And that's been my focus ever since. And somehow that eventually translated into TikTok. Before that I was a ghost on social media. I didn't even care about social media at all. It wasn't really my thing.

0:03:23.7 VB: Oh my gosh, that's so funny. Isn't that so interesting? And I actually love how you started to answer that because I don't think we've had somebody, like usually, yeah, people just kind of go right into like the work, which is just human nature, right? Like we're defined by our work or maybe that's an American culture. But yeah, I mean, obviously for us, the advocacy work that you do in the community revolving around inclusion and educational equity, I mean, you're preaching to the choir here. So that's why we were so excited to have you on. But to hear your background and to hear, I love feeding of your soul, that it is tough work the type of advocacy work that we all three are in, but it really does feed the soul. When you were working with some of the nonprofits, were you pulled in one direction over the other? How did you get involved with inclusion or educational equity challenges?

0:04:16.9 PJ: So, I mean, this is something that I've recognized. I would say probably from a very young age, my father used to tell me that no matter what you're told by teachers, by community members, by whoever, make sure that you go and read these things for yourself. Realize at a very young age that all of the information was skewed in a particular direction. And I said, there's got to be more to the story. There's got to be more to the story. And so at a young age I would read about James Baldwin and Angela Davis and people that, like Bayard Rustin, people that you don't hear about often but were integral members in the fight for racial justice and equity for women, Angela Davis. And so I would read about these people specifically. And it gave me a different perspective on life. I was always one to have a vast array of friends. I never really was into the, you know, big into homophobia, even though homophobia was kind of like trendy in the '90s. But it was always my opinion that, like that's their life. Let them live their life.

0:05:25.2 VB: Yeah.

0:05:25.4 PJ: What difference does that make? And so I've always kind of pushed the envelope. I used to coach, I coached basketball for my oldest son for quite some time. And I would hear how the young men spoke. And this is how I got into the nonprofit space. I would hear how these young men talked to each other, about each other, about young girls, about the world around them. And so I just started sitting down like one practice a month, I would just sit down and talk to them about how to be better, more empathetic.

0:06:00.0 VB: Oh my God. I love that.

0:06:01.4 PJ: More accepting human beings.

0:06:02.0 AS: Mm-mmh.

0:06:02.3 VB: Yeah.

0:06:02.5 PJ: And I said, hey, the likelihood of you guys making it into college to play basketball, slim. And the likelihood of you going pro doing this, even smaller.

0:06:12.2 AS: Yeah.

0:06:12.9 PJ: I said, let's figure out how to be a good person, because a wise man once told me that if you can help as many other people get everything they need in life, it'll be easier for you to get everything that you need in life.

0:06:24.3 AS: 100%

0:06:24.8 PJ: That's how it all started and that's how it continues to go.

0:06:27.2 VB: Isn't it so wonderful when you have a chance to reflect the threads like this, this has just been part of your DNA, right?

0:06:35.1 PJ: Right.

0:06:35.2 VB: And even though you professionally were... Was making good money and things like that, it wasn't as fulfilling, but you still had these like threads, right, where you were supposed to...

[overlapping conversation]

0:06:46.8 PJ: Not only was it not fulfilling, but it actually made me not feel good about myself. I mean, I don't know how much you guys know about the finance industry, you know, I worked in financing in the automotive industry and I was a member of a mortgage company as well. And the idea is to do whatever you can to make the sale. And that was never like, and that's never how I personally operated. And I think that that's one of the reasons I was very successful in what I did. Because I said, hey, listen, I'm not trying to sell you anything. I'm gonna give you all the information you need to make an educated decision and then you decide. That's the same way I approach politics and ethics. Look, I'm just gonna lay out the facts for you. You do with them what you will.

0:07:26.3 AS: Yeah. Well, and unfortunately, there's not enough of that, right? There's so much that there's an ulterior motive in even like, I think social media influencers who try to navigate the space of creating change and grassroots efforts, there's still a bulk that there's always a motive there rather than the purpose that should be around like journalism and people getting the word out is educating, and I think it's so crazy, like when we talk on our podcast a lot about education, most people when they hear education they think of my kids in school, public school, and does that impact them or not? And that's their perception of it. But when we talk about education and equity and inclusion in education, like we're not just talking about K-12 schools. Of course that's a big chunk of like what we personally do because that's our clients. But we should be looking at an eye of like everything we do in talking to people and creating these relationships should be about educating, not having this like, okay, I want you to think this way because of X, Y, and Z. It should be, no, I just want you to get all the information. And then we all should be able to have our opinions about it. And like, we hope that maybe they come to the same conclusions and have similar opinions as us, but that shouldn't be the motive of it.

0:08:49.0 PJ: Right. It boggles my mind, honestly, that I hear white people, white men more so than anybody say this thing constantly. Why do we have to keep talking about race?

0:09:03.6 AS: Why do we have to keep talking about X, Y, and Z education? And even just the idea of like, why do we have to deal with equity and inclusion? Or I think I've heard that so much, especially in the last few months.

0:09:17.4 PJ: My issue is until you address them, like if you... I always use this analogy, right? Like if you were having a disagreement with your spouse, you wouldn't just stop talking to each other. You wouldn't just ignore it. At some point you're going to have to address it. And if you don't address it, if you don't talk it out, it's never going, the problem is never gonna be solved. It's gonna keep rearing its ugly head, especially when tensions are high, right? So if you apply that same logic to life, we don't address it. If we address these things, if we had culturally responsive pedagogy in our elementary schools where we show these young minds that, hey, these people exist, whether they be queer, right? Whether they be of a different race or ethnicity issue, whether they speak a different language, whether they have a different religion than you and so on and so forth. And then explain how those different aspects of their identities or their family's identities have helped to build this country that we live in.

0:10:21.1 AS: Yeah.

0:10:21.2 PJ: Right? And have that same representation in your teachers, in the other staff members, counselors, principals, right? And if we are to do this at a very young age, then they come out of K-5 more accepting of different cultural, sexual, you know what I'm saying, gender identities.

0:10:47.9 AS: Yeah. Well, I mean...

0:10:48.7 PJ: And then it's not like, then they're not like, in the grocery store, like, oh, they have blue hair. You don't hear that. You know what I'm saying?

0:10:53.4 AS: Yes.

0:10:53.9 VB: Right.

0:10:55.4 PJ: You've already addressed all of these things.

0:10:57.1 AS: Well, and if you think about it, kids that are in preschool right now, and this resonates with me 'cause I have a preschooler, if we were to shape every preschooler across the country and we were to create this inclusion and representation in all of these classrooms, just think that in 14 years the majority of the country of these 18-year-olds, this huge demographic would be so different than the current generation. How big of a difference? Like, and it's such a small thing we could be doing now would make such a huge difference. And the fact that a lot of people just don't get that is like we could make such a big impact, but we're not thinking about it because the people making the decisions are the adults. And they're often making the decisions about themselves and not thinking about the children and just future repercussions. But like, if we think about these kids and we think about what we could do in early education, it's a no brainer to us. I mean, and you're preaching to the choir.

0:11:57.6 PJ: I mean, it should be. It should be all children, regardless of what zip code that they occupy or exist in should have equitable access to education and educational resources and tools. And our focus should be not only the obvious math, sciences, language skills, so on and so forth, but also how to coexist in society. Are we a society if we cannot coexist?

0:12:26.7 AS: Right.

0:12:26.7 VB: And the social emotional learning aspect. I mean, children now as young as TKers, right, four or five can be in school programs from 9:00 to 3:00. Six hours of their day, Monday through Friday, being spent with a teacher at a very pivotal time. In California we're moving to even universal preschool, so even younger.

0:12:53.2 PJ: And you're not even talking about after school care.

0:12:53.9 AS: Right.

0:12:54.0 VB: Exactly right. And so why wouldn't we just, like you did coaching basketball, you know, having one practice where you're, you know, it didn't involve in this, you know, you're not just in this echo chamber of basketball, right? Like you exist on a team. And what does that teamwork look like? And I remember, it kind of reminds me of Phil Jackson with the Bulls. They were meditating, right? And people were like, what?

0:13:18.4 PJ: We had a yoga person come in on occasion.

0:13:20.9 VB: Yes.

0:13:22.3 PJ: No, we did all of that. We did all of that. 'Cause I said that basketball, right, like at the age I started coaching them was around 12 years old until they finished high school, and so I said, hey, listen, at this point, right, we know how athletic you are. We can train on that. We have most of the basic skills down. I'm not really going to... I can teach you maybe how to perfect your shot, but I'm not going to necessarily teach you how to shoot the ball. Not at this point. Like you should know that.

0:13:52.1 VB: Right. You either have it... Yeah.

0:13:53.8 PJ: Yeah. What you need to learn is the mental aspects of the game. Michael Jordan, although very athletic, was the greatest player because of the mental aspects. The fact that he could beat you with his mind. And so that's what we focused on. That's literally what we focused on. Like, hey, listen, the more important aspect of this is how do you guys get along as a team?

0:14:20.6 AS: Exactly. Exactly.

0:14:21.1 PJ: Yep. And are you focusing on the aspects of the game that aren't necessarily tangible? And again, the same way that we approach that is the same way that we can approach life. Like, yeah, all of us get up and we go through the rigmarole of the day. You know what I mean? We get up, we eat breakfast, we get the kids off to school, we go into whatever it is that our work is. We get off, we pick the kids up or make dinner, maybe get to spend 10, 15 minutes with your kids before you have to go to bed. And then you get up and do it all over again the next day. But you don't even consider the people that you interact with that day. You don't consider what struggles they may be going through. Oftentimes we don't even know what our own children are going through 'cause we don't even have the time to sit down and talk to them about it. And so we have to figure out ways to be more self-aware, more aware of what's going on in our community and be empathetic to other people's issues and situations. One of the glaring issues in this election cycle is all I hear people talking about is how their life is affected personally.

0:15:38.2 VB: Thank you.

0:15:39.6 PJ: How their pockets are affected personally. Not even considering that one in five children in the United States of America go to bed without food every night, but you're willing to vote for the party that consistently votes against free school lunches and breakfasts.

0:15:57.0 VB: We just did an episode on Project 2025 and that is, it is written in there. It's not like people making it up. It is literally written in there that we are taking it away.

0:16:08.5 AS: Well, and just the fact that like these, our kids are smarter than we think and they are listening to what we're saying. And what are we teaching them if the adults around them are saying, well, I'm gonna vote this way or I'm not gonna vote this way because what they're proposing doesn't help me, rather than thinking about how can we be helping society as a whole? And I feel like I have this argument with people all the time when I think about politics. And I try to say that, yeah, some things that people I vote for may negatively impact me based on my situation, but that's a small thing when I care about these other huge things that impact so many people. And I have empathy about the other people. And I mean, just in general, like our jobs, like we are kind of in it. Like we say that we eat, sleep, breathe, live special education because we truly are in it, not just as a job, but truly as something where we are trying to make a difference. We are trying to have an impact. And I just think that that is something that more adults need to be thinking about the things that we say and the way that we are expressing our viewpoints. It really has an impact on our kids and not just what we tell them, like, hey, I wanna educate you on this, but it's like, our words matter so much.

0:17:34.3 PJ: Right. I think that people fail to realize that if the most marginalized and the people that need the most accommodations within your workspace, within your community, within society as a whole, if all of their material conditions, material needs are met, right, we've made all the necessary measures to make sure that the most marginalized people are taken care of, what do you think that that's going to do for you as somebody who doesn't really have many or any marginalizations, who doesn't really need accommodation? If the least of these are taken care of, then obviously, then society as a whole is going to be stronger. And so if the most marginalized is lifted up, then so are you.

0:18:22.0 AS: Yeah.

0:18:22.5 VB: That's the quote, right? All the... The high tide raises...

[overlapping conversation]

0:18:26.8 PJ: A rising tide lifts all ships.

0:18:27.2 VB: Yep. Thank you. Mm-hmm. And it never ceases to amaze me when people don't understand that. Like, it's difficult because as a highly sensitive person, I pick up on a lot of different things. And so then to be of the perspective just like the average person that may not pick up on those things and still not really understand that, you know, are they hurting you? Is the flag in there? Is there a pride flag on their doorstep? Or how's that hurting you, friend? Like, I...

[overlapping conversation]

0:19:00.5 AS: These people marrying each other because they love each other does not impact you.

0:19:06.8 PJ: Not at all.

0:19:07.5 AS: Doesn't do anything.

0:19:07.5 PJ: Doesn't take away any of your marital rights or marital bliss.

0:19:11.1 VB: Thank you.

0:19:11.7 AS: No, no, no.

0:19:12.0 PJ: Like in the vast majority, if you look at the divorce rates, the vast majority you need to be worried about your own relationship.

0:19:17.8 VB: Thank you.

0:19:19.4 AS: 100%, yeah.

0:19:20.0 VB: Yeah, absolutely.

0:19:22.2 PJ: You know what I mean?

0:19:24.1 VB: Yeah, yeah.

0:19:25.6 PJ: I paint my nails not only 'cause I like it, but also because it makes them upset. And then I ask them, I question them, why is this bothering you?

0:19:34.0 VB: Why is this bothering you?

0:19:34.1 AS: Well, I do that too. My four-year-old loves for his nails to be painted 'cause he sees me painting my nails and he wants it all the time. And I've gotten that question. Oh, you let your son paint his nails? And I go, yeah. You know what, it makes him very happy. And it doesn't affect anybody else.

0:19:49.5 PJ: Nail polish was made for men, by the way.

0:19:52.5 VB: Oh, interesting.

0:19:54.7 PJ: Right.

[laughter]

0:19:57.5 VB: When you put that perspective, yes.

0:19:57.6 PJ: Nail polish, high heels, wigs.

0:19:57.5 AS: Makeup.

0:19:58.7 PJ: Makeup.

0:20:00.4 VB: Yes.

0:20:01.5 PJ: The color pink.

0:20:03.5 AS: Yes, yes.

0:20:03.6 VB: Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And so I imagine the way in which you're able to reach people on, 'cause you had said before TikTok, you were like, I'm good, like, I don't need social media, is that really one of the reasons why you went to TikTok? Just the potential to be able to reach people through your videos? How did it come about?

0:20:24.1 PJ: Yeah, no, not at all, actually.

0:20:25.9 VB: Oh, that's so funny. Oh my gosh. Okay.

0:20:28.2 PJ: My kids would send me TikTok videos to watch.

0:20:30.9 VB: Oh my god, that is so funny.

0:20:32.8 PJ: So finally I just downloaded the app.

0:20:33.1 VB: Oh my gosh, that's so funny.

0:20:34.1 PJ: And then I was scrolling one day and I was just like, what! That's not true. Then I see another video, I'm like, well, that's not true either. And then I'm like, I'm not about to sit here and argue with anybody in their comment section. My kids were like, why don't you just make a video?

0:20:47.3 VB: Oh, okay.

0:20:49.9 PJ: And so I really wanted to go into a live and talk to somebody 'cause they were just spewing all types of nonsense. But I didn't have enough followers. And so I was like, I guess I have to make a video in order to get followers. And I made a couple of videos. And next thing you know I have 10,000 followers, and then 20 and 30 and 40. And I mean, my original account was over half a million, but I've been banned from TikTok 11 times. And not because I did anything wrong, but more so because the hate from conservatives is so strong. And once upon a time they allowed like bot farms to like mass report accounts to have them removed and stuff. That's not so much an issue as it once was. But yeah, so no, it kind of just came out of I wanted to combat some of the crazy misinformation. Because in 2016 when literally the day of when they announced Donald Trump was the president, I deleted Facebook and Instagram from my phone.

0:21:41.9 AS: Probably a smart move.

[laughter]

0:21:47.9 PJ: I just didn't want to hear about it anymore.

0:21:49.0 VB: No, yeah.

0:21:50.8 PJ: I had done everything that I could using those apps in the manner that I could back then to combat the misinformation, and I was just like, wow, I said they picked the fascist anyway.

0:22:02.3 VB: Right. Yeah.

0:22:03.3 AS: Uh-huh.

0:22:05.1 VB: That actually catapulted us to start this podcast. [chuckle]

0:22:07.7 PJ: Gotcha.

0:22:11.8 VB: And so, yeah, Amanda's saying, you know, that...

0:22:12.3 PJ: So I didn't get back into social media until like 2021.

0:22:15.0 VB: Oh, wow.

0:22:17.3 AS: Wow.

0:22:17.6 VB: Wow.

0:22:18.3 PJ: Yeah. January 2021 is when I started my TikTok account.

0:22:20.1 AS: What a time.

0:22:21.2 PJ: Yeah, yeah.

0:22:24.1 VB: These pivotal moments, right, in that we can now kind of reflect on, right, we were all, the collective trauma of the pandemic is one thing, but then I think of the, you know, 45 presidency is quite another. And I think that that's why today is, you know, it's kind of nerve wracking for a lot of people.

0:22:43.2 PJ: It is and it should be. It is alarming. The rest of the world is looking at us.

0:22:49.3 VB: Exactly right.

0:22:50.7 PJ: Because when the US sneezes, the rest of the world gets a cold, but they're looking at us thinking, are they okay? Honestly.

0:22:57.2 VB: Exactly right.

0:22:58.4 PJ: I mean, I've had conversations with people involved in politics and in the news media in other countries, and they're all like, we're praying, literally, that you guys do the right thing.

0:23:11.0 VB: Yeah. And this is our moment to do that and we need...

0:23:13.6 PJ: I ask people two questions regularly. One, if you ever were wondering what you would be doing in the times of slavery or during the Holocaust, whatever you're doing right now, is whatever you would have been doing then. The second thing I always ask, especially those who make issue of gender identities, I said, so you don't like men that wear makeup or wigs or high heels or tights, like that bothers you? And they're like, yeah. I say, so what about the guys who wrote the Constitution?

0:23:43.3 VB: Oh, yep. Because that was the fashion. [laughter] It was all fashion, baby. I was thinking of Kiss the band, the rock band, which I'm sure a lot of them are followers.

0:23:54.3 PJ: That too.

[laughter]

0:23:55.5 VB: But being able to have that perspective, or even just to be able to think of those questions, right, in a way that is not combative, you are really just trying to get them to see things slightly different, you are not trying to change, you know, it's very hard for some of these people raised this way, that they... If they try to use religion to back themselves up to see any...

0:24:20.8 PJ: I'm well too versed in the Bible, well too versed.

0:24:25.3 VB: And I can imagine why. I can imagine why. And just those two questions. I mean, they speak volumes. And that's why we were very honored to have you on because of the work that you are doing and in the way in which you are doing it. And we're just so grateful for your time. If there's a way that people would like to contact you, or obviously they can, you know, your handle Mr. Jones X, how else can people reach out to you?

0:24:53.6 PJ: So yeah, they can find me on YouTube, Instagram, TikTok, Twitch, Twitch stream as well. And if anybody wanted to reach out to me in terms of like collaboration or community works, they would have to go through my management team. And that can be found like on my TikTok profile.

0:25:09.0 VB: Wonderful. Excellent. Thank you so much for sharing this particular day with us when this drops. And please do not hesitate to come back on 'cause we would love to...

0:25:18.8 AS: Yes.

0:25:18.9 PJ: I would love to. This has been great.

0:25:20.8 VB: Yeah. Thank you so much, Patrick. Listeners, do something for yourself today.

0:25:26.7 AS: Yes.

0:25:27.4 VB: Whatever it is, grab a little bit of ice cream, take a nice bath. I don't know what it is, but we will.

0:25:29.8 AS: Open a bottle wine if you need to.

0:25:32.3 VB: Golly, whatever you need to do.

0:25:36.3 PJ: Definitely drink some water.

0:25:37.3 VB: Yes, exactly.

0:25:37.5 AS: Water is good. Yes, yes.

0:25:40.3 VB: And we will talk to you next week.

0:25:40.8 AS: Bye.

0:25:42.8 VB: Bye.

[music]