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You keep using that word air gap?

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I don't think that word means
what you think it means.

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Uh, this is what we ended up talking
about with analysts, Krista McComber

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this week, both that term and another
one that a lot of vendors are using that.

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I don't think it means what they think.

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It means.

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Hope you enjoy the episode.

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W. Curtis Preston: Hi, and welcome to
Backup Central's Restore All podcast.

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I'm your host, w Curtis
Preston, a k a, Mr.

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Backup, and have with me  a guy who is
possibly more excited about my recent

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purchase than I am Prasanna Malaiayandi.

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How's it going?

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Prasanna.

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Prasanna Malaiyandi: I am good, Kurt.

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I'm actually a little disappointed
that like your sort of happiness,

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excitement ended so quickly.

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W. Curtis Preston: It's in end.

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Prasanna Malaiyandi: Uh, did well in the
sense that you sounded not as excited.

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I think your words just last night were,
I'm starting to get buyer's remorse.

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W. Curtis Preston: Oh.

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Oh.

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I did have a moment of buyer's remorse.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Well, you know, so, so for those that
didn't listen to y uh, last week's

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episode, uh, I bought a Tesla, um,
after many months of, of, you know, Will

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I, will I not, I decided that it was
time to replace the, the old Faithful,

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this trustee Steed that had, uh, you
know, 10 years and 220,000 miles on it.

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Uh, the Toyota Prius with an ev.

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Or should I say the e v?

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And um, it's funny, I, I had, I had
lunch yesterday with a, another guy in

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the industry down in La Jolla, and he,
he was like, oh, you, you got a Tesla?

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And I'm like, yeah.

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And uh, he, he said, you
know, I have a Kia ev.

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Um, and my son was like, dad,
Why didn't you buy a Tesla?

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So he has a, he has a
little bit of Tesla envy.

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It is a really nice car.

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It's really crazy the amount of extra
things that the base model is able to do.

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Um, you know, if I spend another.

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Like six grand to get
the enhanced autopilot.

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The, the, the other things that that car
can do are even more amazing, but just

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the things that it can do and the, you
know, the way it does things for you.

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Um, and, um, You know, the charging
is super, super easy and it is less

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expensive than gassing it up even at the
crazy rates that we pay for electricity

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here in uh, Southern California.

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I really wish I lived where you
live, Prasanna, cuz you have, you

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pay nothing compared to me cuz yeah.

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Prasanna Malaiyandi: of Santa Clara
does have a benefit of having its

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own power company, and so because of
that, our rates are ridiculously low.

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Like I, I want to say it's probably
like a quarter of what you pay Curtis.

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W. Curtis Preston: Yeah, cuz I'm paying
like at like at night, like at like the

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lowest rate that I pay when I would charge
an EV is like 35 cents a kilowatt hour.

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That's the lowest rate

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Prasanna Malaiyandi: So
it's like a third of the ba.

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Yeah,

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W. Curtis Preston: You suck.

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Prasanna Malaiyandi: yeah.

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I'm sorry.

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I'll just rub it in.

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Pour salt on the wound.

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You know how it goes,

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W. Curtis Preston: That's

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Prasanna Malaiyandi: but at
least you should continue

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enjoying your car, you know, and

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W. Curtis Preston: Oh, I'm enjoying
it every time, every time I'm in it.

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Um, and, uh, my wife is
still terrified of it.

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We'll, you know, we'll see.

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Get her over over it.

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Um, and, uh, uh, she, yeah, she
just, you know, it is, it is

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definitely a different enough car.

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We had an EV before we had a, a leaf,
um, and this, this, this car is so

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Prasanna Malaiyandi: a, it's, yeah,
it's, it's a very, very different

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experience versus what you had

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W. Curtis Preston: It's, it's a
very, very different experience.

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Um, and, you know, even, even
just something so simple as

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while I'm charging, right.

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Cuz I, cuz right now I am predominantly
charging at Super stations because

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believe it or not, it's actually
cheaper for me to charge down the

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street at a super station than it is
to charge at my house at midnight.

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Right.

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So, so I'm, I'm just doing that.

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Right.

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So I'll charge, I'll charge
at the Super station for now.

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So, But I can pull up, I can
pull up, uh, what did I say?

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Super Station.

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Prasanna Malaiyandi: Yeah.

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W. Curtis Preston: The tbs.

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The TBS Super Station.

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Yeah.

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So, uh, so I go to the supercharger
and I can charge there.

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And, you know, if I want a full
charge and I've driven the car for a,

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what, you know, I'm looking at 30, 40
minutes, um, which is still crazy that

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I can do that in that amount of time.

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And, but, but here's the thing.

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I can sit there and watch
Netflix or YouTube, I.

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I might as well be at home.

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I'm in this comfy seat right.

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And I'm interacting with
the, the video and yeah.

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So it's kind of cool.

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Um, so yeah.

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But I, I did have a moment of
buyer's remorse because, you

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Prasanna Malaiyandi: know I,

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W. Curtis Preston: money

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Prasanna Malaiyandi: yeah, I know
we talked about this yesterday.

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I'm glad you sort of walked off the
ledge there and came back to normal

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civilization, you know, and, uh,

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W. Curtis Preston: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Uh, so I'm enjoying it.

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But, um, well, our, our guest
is, is probably at this point

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wondering, you know, what in
the world did she sign up for?

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Couple of, couple of ev nerds.

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She's, uh, she's an analyst
and advisor and all things data

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protection and cybersecurity.

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Having been in the industry for
13 years, I ran into her insights

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quite a bit on LinkedIn, and so I,
I wanted to have her on the pod.

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She's now a senior
analyst at Futurum Group.

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Welcome to the Pod Krista Macomber.

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How's it going?

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Krista Maccomber: Curtis and Prasanna,
thank you so much for having me.

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I'm, uh, not lucky enough to, uh, own
a Tesla, but definitely maybe someday.

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W. Curtis Preston: Yeah, person, Prasanna.

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Prasannawas my sort of, I was, I was
living vicariously through Prasanna's.

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Ev uh, ownership or Tesla ownership.

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Prasanna Malaiyandi: I don't know
if it counts as being vicariously

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living through my experience since
I didn't really, I don't really

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use the car as much as you, for

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W. Curtis Preston: Isn't
it ridiculous, Kristy?

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He's, he's, how, okay, how
long have you had your car

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Prasanna Malaiyandi:
Four years, three months,

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W. Curtis Preston: and how many
miles do you have on your car?

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Prasanna Malaiyandi: uh, 12,700 miles.

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W. Curtis Preston: I,
your Honor, I arrest my

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Krista Maccomber: Even I, wow.

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Even I do more than that.

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Prasanna Malaiyandi: Yeah.

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W. Curtis Preston: That's just,
that's just, it's just wrong.

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But

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Prasanna Malaiyandi: Of which 750
was done over the long weekend when I

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W. Curtis Preston: yeah.

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Yeah.

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That's crazy.

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He had a long weekend and drove, you
drove to, where'd you say you, uh, yeah.

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Yosemite.

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Krista Maccomber: Beautiful.

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W. Curtis Preston: Yeah.

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Um, beautiful spot.

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You don't have anything beautiful
like that out where you live.

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Do you, Krista,

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Krista Maccomber: Well, I am about a
mile, uh, mile away from the ocean,

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so that doesn't, that doesn't suck.

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But it's not quite Yosemite, so.

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W. Curtis Preston: but, and you're just
surrounded by green all the time, right?

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I mean, it's just, um,
yeah, that's what you have,

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Krista Maccomber: bit of everything.

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Beach trees, mountains.

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Good mix.

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W. Curtis Preston: Good mix.

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Well, I, I, you know, I'm curious to
know, um, I mean, I know how I got into

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this business when I talked to somebody.

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Um, you know, I, I am curious,
like, how did you find yourself

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in this side of the business?

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Like

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Krista Maccomber: Sure.

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Yeah, it is.

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Um, it's an interesting
story actually, Curtis.

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Um, so when I was in school, I actually
studied, um, journalism and, um, I had

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a, a minor in business and so I wrote
for the student paper actually here

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at the University of New Hampshire.

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And, um, there was a gentleman that.

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Used to work at the first analyst
company I ended up working for.

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And um, I interviewed him for
a story for the school paper.

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Um, he actually won their business
competition a few years prior.

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Um, and he said, you know what?

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We need some kind of research and,
uh, proofreading and editing interns.

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It's kind of a, you know, a
good mix, good experience.

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So why don't you kind of come
on board and check it out.

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So I interned for, um, about a
year and a half or so, and then

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I ended up coming on board.

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Full-time, um, as I graduated
and the rest has been history.

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Prasanna Malaiyandi: Yeah.

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W. Curtis Preston: Nice.

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Nice.

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Um, what.

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What, what's it been like?

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I mean, you, you know, that like
the, the backup side of things.

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I think you, you, you've certainly
expanded or I don't know how long,

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if you've covered the cyber side
of things, but you've certainly

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now uncovered the cyber side.

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What, I mean, what's it like covering
this industry from the outside?

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Cuz I mean, I, I, I've, I've been on the
outside, I've been on the, I've been on

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the, I've been sort of, I've been on three
sides now I think of, of the industry.

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So what's it like, what's it like
being, uh, you know, doing that?

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Krista Maccomber: Yeah, so, you know,
one thing that's pretty unique, I

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think, in terms of where we sit in
the market, um, so our team, so you

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mentioned we're, we're with Futurum
group, we're actually acquired at the

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start of this year by Futurum group.

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Previously we were evaluator group.

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Um, and we work very closely
actually with IT operations.

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So when you talk about covering a topic
like cyber, what I think is really

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interesting because you get that sort
of firsthand perspective in terms of,

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okay, you know, I'm all of a sudden
seeing everything being branded.

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As security in cyber, um, you know, how
do I know what's what, how do I really

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know what my full stack should look like?

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Um, and I think it's a very
important topic because there is

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no silver bullet, you know, cyber
resiliency solution, unfortunately.

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You know, it's all about how
does you know, data protection

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play, um, you know, with incident
response as just one example.

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Um, so that's been, I think, you know,
Valuable just in terms of, you know,

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we really have to be able to understand
how the piece parts fit together, but

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make sure that we're being very clear
as well on our side about where does

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our expertise, you know, sort of lie.

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Prasanna Malaiyandi: And so a lot of
what you provide, like you mentioned,

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it's talking to like the IT folks, right?

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And figuring out like what does
the process look like from there?

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Like where do you go from there, right?

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So it's like, okay, here's my problem.

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Here's kind of what I'm looking to do.

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Like, how do you help them
solve those challenges, I guess?

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Krista Maccomber: Sure.

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So it depends a little bit.

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Um, I'll give you the analyst answer, but.

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Yeah.

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So I would say typically they might
want us to help them to narrow down to a

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small handful of solutions to consider,
um, based on the particular criteria of

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their environment and their requirements,
which of course are always unique.

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So they're never is sort of one
size fits all just, you know,

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for any customer of course.

228
00:11:17,976 --> 00:11:22,911
Um, so that really does, um, That's where
we do spend quite a bit of our time.

229
00:11:23,301 --> 00:11:29,241
Um, and sometimes it might even be
helping them to, um, you know, look at

230
00:11:29,241 --> 00:11:32,451
their current implementation a little
bit skeptically and say, okay, where

231
00:11:32,451 --> 00:11:34,611
might some of the gaps, you know, exist?

232
00:11:35,091 --> 00:11:38,811
Um, what are some of the things that maybe
we aren't necessarily thinking about?

233
00:11:39,231 --> 00:11:42,681
Um, That we might wanna
consider moving forward.

234
00:11:43,131 --> 00:11:46,551
And that's where actually we have what
we call our IT insights community.

235
00:11:46,851 --> 00:11:50,361
Um, and what we find is that does
tend to be really valuable for IT

236
00:11:50,366 --> 00:11:54,801
operations because that's a community
where, um, not only can they get,

237
00:11:54,801 --> 00:11:56,511
you know, kind of our feedback as.

238
00:11:56,736 --> 00:12:00,216
Analysts, but they can also have
some peer to peer conversations and

239
00:12:00,216 --> 00:12:04,806
feedback and, um, you know, understand
what are some of their peers maybe

240
00:12:04,806 --> 00:12:09,276
doing to address particular, you know,
challenges or requirements and, and

241
00:12:09,281 --> 00:12:11,916
again, have those types of conversations.

242
00:12:13,056 --> 00:12:18,306
W. Curtis Preston: You know, uh, a few
years ago, uh, I give, um, I give Randy

243
00:12:18,336 --> 00:12:21,876
some credit, um, from back in the day.

244
00:12:21,876 --> 00:12:23,976
It was a few years ago
when I was working, I.

245
00:12:24,381 --> 00:12:27,591
Uh, by the way, before I
continue, I'll remember this

246
00:12:27,591 --> 00:12:29,451
time to do our usual disclaimer.

247
00:12:29,721 --> 00:12:34,641
Uh, this is an independent podcast
and, uh, you know, it doesn't reflect

248
00:12:34,641 --> 00:12:39,861
necessarily, uh, anybody's employer and
the opinions that you hear are ours.

249
00:12:40,066 --> 00:12:43,966
And, uh, also, uh, be sure to rate us,
go to your poca, your pod catcher and

250
00:12:43,966 --> 00:12:46,006
give us lots of stars and comments.

251
00:12:46,006 --> 00:12:48,946
We'd love to see comments, and
we'd really love to talk to you.

252
00:12:48,946 --> 00:12:51,916
If you, uh, you know, you wanna be
part of the conversation, you wanna

253
00:12:51,921 --> 00:12:54,586
send me a private message, you just
say, Hey, make sure you cover abc.

254
00:12:55,246 --> 00:12:57,946
Uh, you haven't talked at
all about such and such.

255
00:12:58,236 --> 00:13:01,566
Uh, the episode this week, uh, that,
that, that I published this week is a

256
00:13:01,566 --> 00:13:05,766
perfect example of that where somebody
wanted to know like, how do I, you

257
00:13:05,766 --> 00:13:08,676
know, like I lost everything, right?

258
00:13:08,676 --> 00:13:11,706
Not just I lost all my
servers, but I've lost, I.

259
00:13:12,171 --> 00:13:16,731
Like the handhelds that I use to
authenticate with my password management

260
00:13:16,731 --> 00:13:19,311
system and my, my, uh, MFA system.

261
00:13:19,311 --> 00:13:24,741
How, how do I start from a hundred
percent scratch, which isn't something

262
00:13:24,741 --> 00:13:26,091
that I haven't been asked before that.

263
00:13:26,096 --> 00:13:29,001
So that's the show that went last
week, and that was from a user.

264
00:13:29,716 --> 00:13:34,006
Uh, or, or a listener of the
podcast and, um, uh, we had her on.

265
00:13:34,276 --> 00:13:38,266
So yeah, so contact us, um, you
know, even if it's just privately.

266
00:13:38,626 --> 00:13:42,976
And, uh, I am WC Preston on
Twitter, w Curtis Preston gmail,

267
00:13:43,336 --> 00:13:46,846
and, uh, linkedin.com/i n slash mr.

268
00:13:46,906 --> 00:13:47,476
Backup.

269
00:13:48,106 --> 00:13:51,256
Um, yeah, so a few years ago,
one, one thing I think that.

270
00:13:51,846 --> 00:13:56,736
When you get to talk to independent,
independent analysts, they can

271
00:13:56,736 --> 00:13:58,536
sometimes call you on your bs.

272
00:13:58,746 --> 00:13:59,226
Right?

273
00:13:59,316 --> 00:14:03,486
Um, and I was working for a vendor, right?

274
00:14:03,516 --> 00:14:08,736
Um, the, the last time I talked to
Randy, which was a few years ago, right?

275
00:14:08,886 --> 00:14:14,976
And, um, he, uh, called me.

276
00:14:15,246 --> 00:14:18,486
So the vendor that I worked at liked
to use the word immutable a lot,

277
00:14:19,341 --> 00:14:20,511
Krista Maccomber: I knew
where this was going.

278
00:14:21,231 --> 00:14:21,741
W. Curtis Preston: Yeah.

279
00:14:21,951 --> 00:14:22,551
Yeah.

280
00:14:22,611 --> 00:14:27,801
And, um, and he's like, right, but do
you have the, you know, he described

281
00:14:27,801 --> 00:14:30,951
a very specific thing of like, you
know, do, do you have a feature that

282
00:14:30,951 --> 00:14:34,821
you can turn on so that even the
users can't delete their own backups?

283
00:14:34,821 --> 00:14:36,561
And I'm like, well, no.

284
00:14:36,591 --> 00:14:39,261
And he's like, well, then
you're not really immutable.

285
00:14:39,321 --> 00:14:39,621
Right.

286
00:14:39,621 --> 00:14:41,181
And I'm like, very good point.

287
00:14:41,361 --> 00:14:41,751
And then I

288
00:14:41,751 --> 00:14:45,711
went, I went and, and, and, um,
I mean, you know, I still think

289
00:14:45,711 --> 00:14:48,441
of immutability as, as a, as a.

290
00:14:48,861 --> 00:14:50,571
Like a spectrum, right?

291
00:14:50,571 --> 00:14:52,221
Nothing's a hundred percent immutable.

292
00:14:52,281 --> 00:14:55,311
Um, and nothing's 0% immutable.

293
00:14:55,641 --> 00:14:56,211
Is that right?

294
00:14:56,211 --> 00:14:56,511
I don't know.

295
00:14:56,541 --> 00:14:56,901
Anyway.

296
00:14:57,321 --> 00:15:00,651
Um, so I think you could be more
and more immutable over, over time.

297
00:15:01,071 --> 00:15:07,641
Uh, but that, that specific request,
uh, that feature made it into

298
00:15:08,181 --> 00:15:12,621
my previous employer's product,
uh, significantly because of the

299
00:15:12,621 --> 00:15:15,291
input that I got from, uh, Randy.

300
00:15:16,176 --> 00:15:19,356
Prasanna Malaiyandi: Well, and I
think sometimes we just sort of have

301
00:15:19,356 --> 00:15:22,896
our own blinders on in terms of what
we think people need in customers

302
00:15:22,901 --> 00:15:25,086
these, and being able to talk to
independent analysts and be like,

303
00:15:25,086 --> 00:15:27,546
Hey, what are you actually seeing?

304
00:15:27,636 --> 00:15:30,816
And hearing as you're going out and
talking to all these people, right?

305
00:15:30,816 --> 00:15:33,906
Because you see and touch so many
different people who may not even

306
00:15:33,906 --> 00:15:35,376
be existing customers, right?

307
00:15:35,376 --> 00:15:37,626
It's like, yeah, that's critical.

308
00:15:38,931 --> 00:15:39,291
Krista Maccomber: Yep.

309
00:15:39,891 --> 00:15:42,891
Yeah, it's, um, it really
helps to keep us grounded.

310
00:15:42,921 --> 00:15:46,401
Um, so I remember that conversation,
Curtis distinctly, so I figured you

311
00:15:46,401 --> 00:15:47,961
were, I figured you were going there.

312
00:15:48,021 --> 00:15:48,561
Um, you

313
00:15:48,591 --> 00:15:50,741
W. Curtis Preston: coffee shop in Vegas.

314
00:15:51,471 --> 00:15:52,371
Krista Maccomber: Yes.

315
00:15:52,371 --> 00:15:52,791
Yes.

316
00:15:52,791 --> 00:15:53,451
It was.

317
00:15:53,601 --> 00:15:54,891
W. Curtis Preston: right
where that meeting was.

318
00:15:56,736 --> 00:15:58,056
Krista Maccomber: We try to
make sure people have thick

319
00:15:58,056 --> 00:15:59,316
skin in those conversations.

320
00:15:59,316 --> 00:15:59,616
Right.

321
00:15:59,616 --> 00:16:02,166
But, um, yeah, it, it keeps us grounded.

322
00:16:02,166 --> 00:16:05,496
I mean, one example that comes
very clearly to my mind that

323
00:16:05,496 --> 00:16:09,906
I've been, um, partaking in
recently is around air gapping.

324
00:16:10,236 --> 00:16:14,616
Um, because of course we're seeing
all these different cloud solutions

325
00:16:14,616 --> 00:16:18,876
and oh, they're air gapped and this it
insights community that I referenced,

326
00:16:18,876 --> 00:16:20,256
they're saying, well, wait a minute.

327
00:16:21,141 --> 00:16:25,521
It's not really right, because there
does need to be some connection somewhere

328
00:16:25,761 --> 00:16:27,411
to get that data into the vault.

329
00:16:27,801 --> 00:16:32,901
So why are they calling this an air
gap and is it just, you know, um, an

330
00:16:33,351 --> 00:16:36,921
AWS bucket that's sitting out there
somewhere that I'm just putting data into?

331
00:16:36,921 --> 00:16:40,641
How do I know right, that
there is some sort of.

332
00:16:41,036 --> 00:16:43,436
Um, you know, isolation there, right?

333
00:16:43,436 --> 00:16:47,696
So we've kind of taken that feedback
and not only does that influence

334
00:16:47,696 --> 00:16:50,966
sort of, um, you know, our research
and, and where we're covering.

335
00:16:50,966 --> 00:16:56,066
So I wrote, um, you know, a piece
about, okay, what we call this, you

336
00:16:56,066 --> 00:17:00,056
know, operational air gap versus your
more traditional physical air gap

337
00:17:00,056 --> 00:17:04,016
where you're actually shipping, you
know, tape media offsite, for example.

338
00:17:04,376 --> 00:17:07,316
Um, but also kind of to
what you're alluding to.

339
00:17:07,851 --> 00:17:08,961
W. Curtis Preston: An actual air gap.

340
00:17:09,681 --> 00:17:10,641
Krista Maccomber: Exactly.

341
00:17:10,701 --> 00:17:11,451
Exactly.

342
00:17:12,351 --> 00:17:15,111
W. Curtis Preston: It, it's funny, this
came up, this came up, uh, yesterday

343
00:17:15,111 --> 00:17:18,321
on, we, we were recording with another,
with somebody else, and they, they,

344
00:17:18,831 --> 00:17:20,271
they said exactly the same thing.

345
00:17:20,421 --> 00:17:25,071
So you're saying, you, you, you do, you're
doing, you're using the term operational

346
00:17:25,071 --> 00:17:27,941
air gap versus physical air gap.

347
00:17:28,651 --> 00:17:31,731
Krista Maccomber: I Either that or
data vaults, you know, I'm kind of.

348
00:17:33,201 --> 00:17:34,341
Playing with both of them.

349
00:17:34,431 --> 00:17:39,861
Um, operational does seem to make
more sense to it operations, um,

350
00:17:40,551 --> 00:17:44,631
you know, versus like a, a virtual
air gap or, or anything like that.

351
00:17:44,631 --> 00:17:49,761
But, um, I, I'm even hesitating
to use air gap in context.

352
00:17:49,761 --> 00:17:52,731
If anything, that's not a, a
pure physical air gap, just.

353
00:17:53,181 --> 00:17:56,451
Due to the feedback that we've
been receiving, you know,

354
00:17:56,511 --> 00:17:57,921
from those conversations.

355
00:17:57,921 --> 00:18:04,641
So, but yeah, operational seems to,
seems to be sitting a little bit better.

356
00:18:04,701 --> 00:18:05,871
I, I would describe it.

357
00:18:07,259 --> 00:18:10,889
Prasanna Malaiyandi: I like the
notion of avoiding the term air gap

358
00:18:10,889 --> 00:18:13,409
because like you said, it means so
many different things and it sort of.

359
00:18:14,039 --> 00:18:18,029
Also leads people down the path of
saying, oh yeah, it's an air gap.

360
00:18:18,029 --> 00:18:20,909
But it's like that first word
becomes so key that they forget

361
00:18:20,909 --> 00:18:22,019
about it and what it really means.

362
00:18:22,229 --> 00:18:24,629
And I like using the word operational.

363
00:18:24,629 --> 00:18:26,729
I was also thinking as
you were talking, right?

364
00:18:26,999 --> 00:18:30,419
Instead of like operational air
gap, it's like operational isolation

365
00:18:30,419 --> 00:18:33,839
or things like that because that's
really what you wanna do, right?

366
00:18:33,839 --> 00:18:38,519
It's like, hey, this is really a separate
environment that is operationally isolated

367
00:18:38,519 --> 00:18:40,769
from everything else you normally run.

368
00:18:40,774 --> 00:18:42,239
And that's how you get the protection.

369
00:18:43,319 --> 00:18:45,269
Krista Maccomber: I completely
agree Prasanna, and that's why a

370
00:18:45,269 --> 00:18:48,959
vault is actually not a bad term
in my opinion, because it does have

371
00:18:48,959 --> 00:18:51,179
that connotation of being isolated.

372
00:18:51,179 --> 00:18:52,319
But yeah,

373
00:18:52,319 --> 00:18:52,559
W. Curtis Preston: Yeah.

374
00:18:52,559 --> 00:18:57,869
You know, it's, it's funny,
um, Krista, um, it's like the

375
00:18:57,869 --> 00:18:59,069
argument that I have over.

376
00:18:59,759 --> 00:19:06,359
Snapshots and, um, because like, and
again, this came up yesterday, so I, I

377
00:19:06,359 --> 00:19:13,109
don't like that vendors like AWS use the
term snapshot to refer to image copies.

378
00:19:13,109 --> 00:19:13,169
I.

379
00:19:13,364 --> 00:19:18,044
Right, because like a, like a, an
AWS snapshot is actually a backup.

380
00:19:18,044 --> 00:19:21,554
Like it actually goes into s3,
it goes to a different place.

381
00:19:21,559 --> 00:19:25,094
It's not a snapshot in
the traditional it sense.

382
00:19:25,544 --> 00:19:29,084
But then the thing is, if you
think about the word image, it's

383
00:19:29,084 --> 00:19:30,404
just another word for snapshot.

384
00:19:30,644 --> 00:19:33,614
It's just they're all,
they're all pictures, right?

385
00:19:33,674 --> 00:19:35,444
So it's like, you know,
you're saying vault.

386
00:19:35,624 --> 00:19:37,304
It's like, I, I agree.

387
00:19:37,424 --> 00:19:38,084
I, I like that.

388
00:19:38,144 --> 00:19:41,144
Basically you've chosen to use a different
term and there's nothing wrong with it.

389
00:19:41,649 --> 00:19:44,499
But vault is where I
would make my air gap.

390
00:19:44,499 --> 00:19:48,609
That's what I'm, that's historically
I would put my tapes in a vault.

391
00:19:48,819 --> 00:19:51,849
This is no more a vault
than it was an air gap.

392
00:19:52,269 --> 00:19:55,089
Um, I, but I, I understand what
you're, you're trying to get

393
00:19:55,094 --> 00:19:56,229
away from that term air gap.

394
00:19:56,229 --> 00:20:01,299
I, I guess the question is like, if we're
gonna keep, like the way, like the way.

395
00:20:02,254 --> 00:20:06,634
The way Randy kept me honest a few years
ago, if we're gonna keep vendors honest,

396
00:20:06,634 --> 00:20:09,964
like there's, and I'm not gonna name
the vendor, but there's one particular

397
00:20:09,969 --> 00:20:15,274
vendor that has, has, uh, you know, an
appliance that sits on-prem and it's an

398
00:20:15,274 --> 00:20:19,294
on-prem appliance in the data center,
and they call that appliance air gap.

399
00:20:21,564 --> 00:20:24,784
And, um, and it just kills me.

400
00:20:24,784 --> 00:20:26,584
I'm like, it's not even whatever.

401
00:20:26,764 --> 00:20:30,074
Like, so how do, how do you, how
do you like, That's, that's what

402
00:20:30,074 --> 00:20:32,114
I'm saying is I'm, that's, hi.

403
00:20:32,114 --> 00:20:37,274
Historically, when I, when I wasn't
part of the vendor community, I

404
00:20:37,274 --> 00:20:42,824
was trying very hard to get them
to use term to not misuse terms.

405
00:20:42,824 --> 00:20:47,534
And air gap is currently air gap
and immutable, I'd say are the,

406
00:20:47,594 --> 00:20:50,024
the two words that are very much

407
00:20:50,024 --> 00:20:50,804
misused.

408
00:20:51,704 --> 00:20:52,184
Krista Maccomber: Absolutely.

409
00:20:54,104 --> 00:20:55,154
W. Curtis Preston: Yeah,
I don't, I don't know.

410
00:20:55,544 --> 00:21:00,254
I dunno where to go from there, but it's
just, it's just, uh, so, so, well, I

411
00:21:00,254 --> 00:21:07,364
guess my question is, so do, would you,
are you trying to get vendors to use

412
00:21:07,369 --> 00:21:10,394
that term or, you know, does that matter?

413
00:21:10,394 --> 00:21:11,744
What's your goal with that term?

414
00:21:12,824 --> 00:21:13,574
The vault term?

415
00:21:15,404 --> 00:21:19,799
Krista Maccomber: I would say
honestly, my bigger, um, Goal is

416
00:21:19,799 --> 00:21:24,179
to try to get the vendors to be as
clear as possible about what they're,

417
00:21:24,209 --> 00:21:25,619
what they're actually providing.

418
00:21:26,069 --> 00:21:26,399
Right.

419
00:21:26,404 --> 00:21:30,719
Because it's okay, you can use any term
you want, but you know, to your point,

420
00:21:30,719 --> 00:21:34,919
Curtis, there's, there's only so many
words and terms that we can use, right?

421
00:21:34,924 --> 00:21:38,849
Because then if you do throw out
something completely new, then the market.

422
00:21:39,239 --> 00:21:43,379
You know, in, in, in it, they have no
idea, you know, what you're talking about.

423
00:21:43,379 --> 00:21:45,209
So there needs to be
some education anyway.

424
00:21:45,719 --> 00:21:52,109
Um, so I think I would say my, my goal
wouldn't necessarily be to get the, you

425
00:21:52,109 --> 00:21:56,609
know, the vendors in the industry to
standardize on that term, but more, okay.

426
00:21:56,609 --> 00:21:59,249
Let's consider, you know, is
there something else we can

427
00:21:59,249 --> 00:22:03,544
describe this as, but also bigger
picture, you know, You, Mr.

428
00:22:03,544 --> 00:22:06,784
Bender, please be aware that,
you know, your customers are

429
00:22:06,784 --> 00:22:09,904
looking at this messaging and
they're wanting to understand

430
00:22:10,204 --> 00:22:11,524
what's actually going into this.

431
00:22:11,524 --> 00:22:16,084
To truly make it isolated and to make
it more than just your, your general

432
00:22:16,089 --> 00:22:20,134
purpose S3 bucket that's just sitting
out there that anybody can penetrate.

433
00:22:20,134 --> 00:22:23,974
They want that information and
they wanna know, um, because this

434
00:22:23,974 --> 00:22:25,564
is just too important for them.

435
00:22:25,894 --> 00:22:28,384
Um, so I would say at the end
of the day, that's really,

436
00:22:28,474 --> 00:22:30,244
um, you know, my bigger goal.

437
00:22:32,399 --> 00:22:33,449
Prasanna Malaiyandi:
It's a very noble goal.

438
00:22:33,454 --> 00:22:34,139
I wish you luck.

439
00:22:35,624 --> 00:22:36,884
No, because that's, because that's

440
00:22:36,884 --> 00:22:39,164
always a hard thing like
Curtis talked about, right?

441
00:22:39,164 --> 00:22:41,444
It's like vendors like
to make up terms, right?

442
00:22:41,444 --> 00:22:44,894
And like to reuse terms because they
think that's what customers want.

443
00:22:44,894 --> 00:22:47,894
I, I've worked in with vendors
my entire career, right?

444
00:22:47,894 --> 00:22:50,624
And so I've always seen that path, right?

445
00:22:50,629 --> 00:22:53,684
It's like, Hey, we could call it
this, but it's not quite that, right?

446
00:22:53,684 --> 00:22:56,954
We'll use the word snapshot when we really
mean backup, but it's like people know

447
00:22:56,954 --> 00:23:01,499
snapshots and it's like, Yeah, that's
just confusing users in the end, right?

448
00:23:01,499 --> 00:23:06,389
And so at least making sure users
understand what they need to look for.

449
00:23:06,389 --> 00:23:10,109
And it doesn't matter what terms a vendor
uses, it's like, this is what I need.

450
00:23:10,109 --> 00:23:13,709
I need a mechanism to make sure
that my backups are protected.

451
00:23:13,714 --> 00:23:16,079
And it's operationally separate.

452
00:23:16,079 --> 00:23:19,079
And if you decide to call it a vault, or
if you decide to call it a virtual layer

453
00:23:19,079 --> 00:23:22,529
gap or whatever else you decide to call
it, that's fine, but this is what I need.

454
00:23:23,774 --> 00:23:24,674
Krista Maccomber: Exactly.

455
00:23:25,214 --> 00:23:25,904
Exactly.

456
00:23:25,904 --> 00:23:29,684
And um, we've actually gotten hands
on, um, with some of these solutions

457
00:23:29,684 --> 00:23:33,044
in particular, there's a couple of them
that we were contracted to actually

458
00:23:33,044 --> 00:23:38,504
do an audit and say, okay, you have,
you know, solution X and solution Y

459
00:23:38,804 --> 00:23:40,224
that are, you know, you're calling.

460
00:23:41,084 --> 00:23:43,244
Air gapped or whatever that term is.

461
00:23:43,514 --> 00:23:45,344
Um, you know, let's break it down.

462
00:23:45,434 --> 00:23:49,214
Um, let's spend some hours kind of
really going through the solution.

463
00:23:49,514 --> 00:23:53,444
Um, you know, as the analyst firm, we
tried to put on our, our hacker hat,

464
00:23:53,449 --> 00:23:57,614
I guess, if you will, and try to think
about, okay, what are any ways that there

465
00:23:57,614 --> 00:24:01,544
might be to get around, you know, using
Curtis's example of the immutability,

466
00:24:01,784 --> 00:24:03,254
you know, the controls for that.

467
00:24:03,254 --> 00:24:07,519
And maybe when an IMMU bill copy
expires, um, You know, do you have

468
00:24:07,519 --> 00:24:11,749
your controls to be able to sever the
network connection, um, so that it is

469
00:24:11,779 --> 00:24:15,469
only open, you know, when your data's
being transferred and maybe it's even

470
00:24:15,474 --> 00:24:17,239
over a private link, for example.

471
00:24:17,239 --> 00:24:21,019
So, um, you know, we've tried
to do that as well, um, when

472
00:24:21,019 --> 00:24:22,399
we've had the opportunity.

473
00:24:22,699 --> 00:24:26,659
Um, and that way we can go to the
customer and say, we got hands on

474
00:24:26,659 --> 00:24:28,339
with these couple of solutions.

475
00:24:28,609 --> 00:24:32,179
Um, you know, we're not saying pick
one of these two, but what we are

476
00:24:32,179 --> 00:24:36,069
saying is that based on what we've
seen, um, you know, Here's some

477
00:24:36,069 --> 00:24:37,419
things that you might think about.

478
00:24:37,689 --> 00:24:40,989
Um, and by the way, here's, you know,
the write up of what we did, if you

479
00:24:40,989 --> 00:24:42,579
do wanna look at these solutions.

480
00:24:42,579 --> 00:24:42,999
So

481
00:24:43,694 --> 00:24:47,924
W. Curtis Preston: Yeah, it sounds
like it, it sounds like, uh, air gap

482
00:24:49,004 --> 00:24:54,494
or vault or whatever, um, is similar,
at least my understanding of sort

483
00:24:54,494 --> 00:24:56,234
of the, the modern manifestation.

484
00:24:56,414 --> 00:25:00,254
Of it is that it's, it's like
immutable in that some things are

485
00:25:00,259 --> 00:25:01,844
more air gap than others, right?

486
00:25:01,844 --> 00:25:05,834
Some things are, you know, you think,
you think of air, air gap and immutable,

487
00:25:05,954 --> 00:25:08,474
they're both binary terms, right?

488
00:25:08,504 --> 00:25:12,494
It's, you know, it's like
dead or pregnant, right?

489
00:25:12,494 --> 00:25:16,694
You're either, you're either dead
or alive, pregnant or not pregnant.

490
00:25:17,279 --> 00:25:19,109
You can't, it's, it's a binary

491
00:25:19,109 --> 00:25:19,559
term.

492
00:25:19,559 --> 00:25:20,579
You, Yeah.

493
00:25:20,639 --> 00:25:21,119
yeah.

494
00:25:21,329 --> 00:25:25,679
But, but the, but these, these aren't,
you would think they would be like,

495
00:25:25,679 --> 00:25:30,239
that it, you know, immutable just
means can, can or cannot be changed.

496
00:25:30,244 --> 00:25:30,599
Right.

497
00:25:30,869 --> 00:25:34,679
So you would think that this is a,
this is a binary condition, but the,

498
00:25:34,739 --> 00:25:38,519
but the thing is that, You know,
because, you know, I make the point that

499
00:25:38,519 --> 00:25:39,989
nothing's a hundred percent immutable.

500
00:25:39,989 --> 00:25:40,229
Right.

501
00:25:40,229 --> 00:25:44,549
You know, give me, gimme a solution that
says it's immutable and hand me a torch.

502
00:25:44,909 --> 00:25:45,389
Right.

503
00:25:45,569 --> 00:25:46,709
It, it's not immutable.

504
00:25:46,709 --> 00:25:47,939
It's not immutable anymore.

505
00:25:47,939 --> 00:25:50,969
It can indeed be changed if I get access.

506
00:25:50,969 --> 00:25:51,359
Right.

507
00:25:51,809 --> 00:25:54,269
But think some things are
more immutable than others.

508
00:25:54,269 --> 00:25:56,279
Some things are more isolated than others.

509
00:25:56,279 --> 00:25:57,779
I like, I like the term isolated.

510
00:25:57,779 --> 00:25:58,559
I like that a lot.

511
00:25:58,919 --> 00:26:04,679
Uh, some things are, are isolated,
farther away, right on, on one end.

512
00:26:04,679 --> 00:26:07,919
You know, you, you use the term
s3, but all S3 buckets aren't,

513
00:26:07,979 --> 00:26:10,079
aren't created equal either, right?

514
00:26:10,079 --> 00:26:16,769
So an open, an open S3 bucket with
no authentication, not isolated, not

515
00:26:16,774 --> 00:26:20,039
air gapped, not immutable, right?

516
00:26:20,069 --> 00:26:21,359
None of those things.

517
00:26:21,659 --> 00:26:26,369
Um, and on the other end, I, I
would put maybe not on the far,

518
00:26:26,374 --> 00:26:28,049
like on the far end, might be.

519
00:26:28,514 --> 00:26:33,314
Actual worm media, like optical
or something like that, or, or,

520
00:26:33,314 --> 00:26:39,134
or a worm tape, uh, where you
actually have physical, uh, stuff.

521
00:26:39,194 --> 00:26:40,694
Where would you, is there something you,

522
00:26:40,694 --> 00:26:41,684
think is more immutable than

523
00:26:41,759 --> 00:26:45,449
Krista Maccomber: has one of those and
Randy has one of those in his office.

524
00:26:45,449 --> 00:26:46,469
Uh, Randy does,

525
00:26:46,814 --> 00:26:47,234
W. Curtis Preston: Oh, he

526
00:26:47,234 --> 00:26:48,014
has the already the,

527
00:26:48,064 --> 00:26:50,369
Krista Maccomber: in Boulder,
one of the worm tapes.

528
00:26:50,429 --> 00:26:50,789
Yep.

529
00:26:50,909 --> 00:26:51,119
Yep.

530
00:26:52,424 --> 00:26:52,664
W. Curtis Preston: Yeah.

531
00:26:52,704 --> 00:26:52,904
So

532
00:26:52,904 --> 00:26:53,654
that's like on one

533
00:26:53,849 --> 00:26:54,479
Krista Maccomber: terms, he

534
00:26:54,734 --> 00:26:55,604
W. Curtis Preston: Yeah, absolutely.

535
00:26:55,604 --> 00:26:55,844
Yeah.

536
00:26:55,859 --> 00:26:57,299
Krista Maccomber: been
around for a long time.

537
00:26:57,869 --> 00:26:58,949
W. Curtis Preston: Yeah, it has, right?

538
00:26:58,949 --> 00:27:02,189
So that, that's like on, on, on
the opposite end of the spectrum.

539
00:27:02,699 --> 00:27:06,479
Um, but somewhere in between there, right?

540
00:27:06,539 --> 00:27:10,499
Um, you know, you've got, you've
got append only file systems.

541
00:27:10,499 --> 00:27:14,909
You've got immutability
built into, uh, Linux, right?

542
00:27:14,939 --> 00:27:16,609
Um, you know, like Veeam uses.

543
00:27:17,159 --> 00:27:19,559
The immutability feature of
Linux for their harden, their

544
00:27:19,559 --> 00:27:20,879
hardened Linux repository.

545
00:27:21,179 --> 00:27:24,269
But at the same time, if I get
root, I can turn that feature off.

546
00:27:24,329 --> 00:27:24,689
Right?

547
00:27:24,689 --> 00:27:27,749
And so it's, it's, it's more
immutable than the other thing,

548
00:27:27,754 --> 00:27:29,579
but, but it's not a hundred percent.

549
00:27:29,999 --> 00:27:34,289
Um, so that's, that's, it sounds
like what, what you're doing is

550
00:27:34,289 --> 00:27:39,119
just digging into these vendors
to see where they actually fall.

551
00:27:40,259 --> 00:27:40,709
Krista Maccomber: Yep.

552
00:27:40,769 --> 00:27:41,009
Yep.

553
00:27:41,069 --> 00:27:42,029
Exactly.

554
00:27:42,179 --> 00:27:45,509
And um, a lot of what you're alluding
to Curtis would be, you know, when we

555
00:27:45,509 --> 00:27:50,639
do have more higher touch, more, you
know, consultative type engagements

556
00:27:50,639 --> 00:27:53,849
with it, that's where it might take
into some of the nitty gritty and,

557
00:27:53,849 --> 00:27:56,849
okay, let's look in your environment
and let's think about where some

558
00:27:56,849 --> 00:27:58,259
of the vulnerabilities might be.

559
00:27:58,259 --> 00:28:00,209
You know, we're not necessarily.

560
00:28:00,569 --> 00:28:03,779
You know, full security
auditors, you know, by any means.

561
00:28:04,019 --> 00:28:09,179
But we can certainly, you know, help
with, um, you know, maybe thinking about,

562
00:28:09,239 --> 00:28:14,939
about, um, some of those unique, you
know, requirements and potential pitfalls.

563
00:28:16,564 --> 00:28:20,134
Prasanna Malaiyandi: So as you're
talking to a lot of these IT operations

564
00:28:20,134 --> 00:28:25,904
folks and various companies, Where do
you see, like, how are people shifting?

565
00:28:25,904 --> 00:28:29,084
Like I know back in the day,
right, Curtis will probably, Curtis

566
00:28:29,084 --> 00:28:31,514
has told numerous stories, right
when he first started, right?

567
00:28:31,514 --> 00:28:35,174
It was, you had your backup
server, you had tape, right?

568
00:28:35,174 --> 00:28:36,464
You were doing backups to it.

569
00:28:36,464 --> 00:28:39,584
Now we've seen everything from that
to sort of purpose-built backup

570
00:28:39,584 --> 00:28:45,074
appliances, to integrate data protection
appliances to SaaS based services.

571
00:28:45,734 --> 00:28:50,474
How are customers shifting, um, what
they think about when it comes to

572
00:28:50,474 --> 00:28:53,654
data protection and how they plan
to deploy and use these solutions?

573
00:28:55,139 --> 00:28:56,189
Krista Maccomber: Sure, sure.

574
00:28:56,194 --> 00:29:01,229
So looking at the deployment itself,
um, we are certainly, you know,

575
00:29:01,229 --> 00:29:04,559
you mentioned SaaS Prasannaand
we're, we are seeing a bit of that.

576
00:29:05,009 --> 00:29:07,619
Typically it is for more point use cases.

577
00:29:07,919 --> 00:29:12,479
So for example, okay, I've
migrated over to Microsoft 365.

578
00:29:13,229 --> 00:29:16,469
I'm already subscribing
to Microsoft in the cloud.

579
00:29:16,889 --> 00:29:19,769
It probably makes sense that I
get my data protection for that.

580
00:29:20,339 --> 00:29:21,359
In the same manner.

581
00:29:21,719 --> 00:29:25,949
Um, so data protection is really
interesting because it does have

582
00:29:25,949 --> 00:29:28,019
that very long tail of adoption.

583
00:29:28,349 --> 00:29:34,019
Um, you know, it's very, very hard
right to migrate off of legacy systems.

584
00:29:34,049 --> 00:29:36,809
Um, you might have, you know,
legacy backup copies that

585
00:29:36,809 --> 00:29:38,489
ultimately might need to recover.

586
00:29:38,789 --> 00:29:44,549
Um, these processes are in place for,
in some cases, you know, years, decades.

587
00:29:44,789 --> 00:29:48,719
Um, so we're not necessarily
seeing kind of that.

588
00:29:48,874 --> 00:29:51,034
Wholesale lift and shift by any means.

589
00:29:51,034 --> 00:29:55,264
But we are seeing, you know, kind
of SaaS delivered data protection

590
00:29:55,264 --> 00:29:58,384
for those point use cases that is
starting to enter the equation.

591
00:29:58,954 --> 00:30:02,614
Um, we've already been talking of,
of course, a little bit about some

592
00:30:02,614 --> 00:30:05,374
of these, you know, kind of cloud.

593
00:30:05,849 --> 00:30:07,859
Air gap or cloud vault solutions?

594
00:30:07,859 --> 00:30:11,489
Well, even just thinking about
kind of a general, um, target for

595
00:30:11,489 --> 00:30:15,059
backup or for disaster recovery,
um, you know, we are seeing the

596
00:30:15,059 --> 00:30:17,489
cloud being used for that as well.

597
00:30:17,819 --> 00:30:21,429
Um, you know, and of course I think that
makes sense when we think about, um,

598
00:30:22,544 --> 00:30:25,664
Just, you know, kind of the simplicity
of being able to subscribe to that

599
00:30:25,664 --> 00:30:30,494
infrastructure versus having to buy and
deploy it and manage it all in house.

600
00:30:30,554 --> 00:30:37,619
Um, so, and, and that kind of brings
me to, um, The big thing that, you

601
00:30:37,619 --> 00:30:42,359
know, we're seeing face, um, you
know, not only just IT teams that are

602
00:30:42,359 --> 00:30:46,169
working on data protection, but you
know, it operations teams in general,

603
00:30:46,559 --> 00:30:47,999
which is just that they don't have it.

604
00:30:47,999 --> 00:30:49,349
They just don't have time.

605
00:30:49,799 --> 00:30:53,759
So staffing pressures, you
know, our second only to.

606
00:30:54,134 --> 00:30:57,824
PR, cost and budget in terms of
the challenges that we're seeing

607
00:30:57,824 --> 00:30:59,174
customers trying to address.

608
00:30:59,174 --> 00:31:04,664
So that's where kind of a SaaS or a cloud
type delivery, um, where it's appropriate

609
00:31:04,664 --> 00:31:06,974
and where it can, you know, fit the bill.

610
00:31:07,244 --> 00:31:10,964
Um, you know, that can really help
to alleviate some of those pressures.

611
00:31:10,964 --> 00:31:14,444
So I kind of threw a lot at you,
but that's a little mixture of

612
00:31:14,444 --> 00:31:17,264
what we've been seeing, at least
from a deployment perspective.

613
00:31:18,189 --> 00:31:20,369
W. Curtis Preston: That's a,
that's a, that's a perfect answer.

614
00:31:20,369 --> 00:31:23,879
I, but you and you, you brought
up a, a favorite topic of mine,

615
00:31:23,879 --> 00:31:25,649
so I want to ask you about that.

616
00:31:26,039 --> 00:31:31,589
And that is, um, what percentage of
people, when you're talking out, you

617
00:31:31,589 --> 00:31:36,599
know, when you're talking out there
and they go and they get 365 or G Suite

618
00:31:36,629 --> 00:31:42,419
or Salesforce or pick some other SaaS
offering, what percentage of those people.

619
00:31:43,214 --> 00:31:49,364
Then realize they need to back it up
and then get something, anything to

620
00:31:49,364 --> 00:31:54,524
back it up versus, versus the percentage
that go, well, it's, uh, it's included.

621
00:31:54,524 --> 00:31:54,944
Right.

622
00:31:55,004 --> 00:31:56,654
You know, it's, it's part of the thing.

623
00:31:58,334 --> 00:31:58,814
Krista Maccomber: Yep.

624
00:31:58,904 --> 00:31:59,114
Yeah.

625
00:31:59,119 --> 00:32:02,444
And that, honestly, that has
been a problem for years.

626
00:32:02,744 --> 00:32:06,164
Um, I would say Curtis,
it's getting better.

627
00:32:06,254 --> 00:32:07,634
Um, so

628
00:32:08,084 --> 00:32:08,664
W. Curtis Preston: You are

629
00:32:08,864 --> 00:32:09,404
Krista Maccomber: that some.

630
00:32:10,859 --> 00:32:11,969
Exactly right.

631
00:32:13,799 --> 00:32:14,189
W. Curtis Preston: We're, we're

632
00:32:14,189 --> 00:32:15,299
all doing it together.

633
00:32:15,299 --> 00:32:15,629
We're all

634
00:32:15,629 --> 00:32:15,989
doing it

635
00:32:16,319 --> 00:32:17,969
Krista Maccomber: Oh yeah, exactly.

636
00:32:17,969 --> 00:32:18,719
Exactly.

637
00:32:18,779 --> 00:32:21,449
It's like you, you, you know, if
you scream enough people notice.

638
00:32:21,454 --> 00:32:21,809
Right.

639
00:32:21,839 --> 00:32:28,109
Um, so we fielded, um, a primary research
study right around the turn of the year.

640
00:32:28,469 --> 00:32:33,449
Um, we published it back in January
and, um, what that research found

641
00:32:33,449 --> 00:32:35,069
was that actually a little bit over.

642
00:32:35,804 --> 00:32:39,884
Half of enterprises were, if they had
Microsoft 365, we're protecting it now.

643
00:32:39,914 --> 00:32:43,964
Which of course is not where
we want it to be, but it's, you

644
00:32:44,264 --> 00:32:45,674
W. Curtis Preston: way more than it was

645
00:32:46,124 --> 00:32:47,984
Krista Maccomber: Exact, yes, exactly.

646
00:32:48,074 --> 00:32:51,344
W. Curtis Preston: The only time
I saw a survey, it was like 5%.

647
00:32:51,434 --> 00:32:53,524
So I'll take

648
00:32:53,639 --> 00:32:57,599
Krista Maccomber: and granted these
were, you know, we did speak with

649
00:32:57,599 --> 00:33:01,019
folks that were, you know, very
hands-on with data protection.

650
00:33:01,024 --> 00:33:04,139
So maybe that number you could
make a case maybe was a little

651
00:33:04,139 --> 00:33:06,119
inflated just based on the audience.

652
00:33:06,119 --> 00:33:09,119
But I, I think it was
still very heartening.

653
00:33:09,509 --> 00:33:10,879
Um, I think when we look at.

654
00:33:11,279 --> 00:33:13,979
Some of the other
applications like Salesforce.

655
00:33:14,009 --> 00:33:17,879
Um, you know, certainly we're seeing
interest in demand there, but you

656
00:33:17,879 --> 00:33:20,789
know, I think in practice we're
certainly still getting there.

657
00:33:21,179 --> 00:33:27,059
Um, you know, I mean, you've sort of
alluded to, um, that concept that,

658
00:33:27,089 --> 00:33:31,769
oh, well if it's in the cloud, then
the protection is the cloud providers.

659
00:33:32,639 --> 00:33:34,499
Problem, and I don't
have to worry about it.

660
00:33:34,499 --> 00:33:35,999
Of course, we on this call.

661
00:33:35,999 --> 00:33:37,019
No, that's not true.

662
00:33:37,379 --> 00:33:40,979
Um, and I think in part, due to
the education, Curtis, as you were

663
00:33:40,979 --> 00:33:44,609
mentioning, that we've all been doing,
but I also think, honestly, some

664
00:33:44,609 --> 00:33:48,389
of the ransomware attacks and those
headlines, um, I think they probably

665
00:33:48,389 --> 00:33:51,809
have helped a little bit because I,
we've seen that that has grabbed the

666
00:33:51,809 --> 00:33:57,094
attention of the C-Suite to say, oh, I'm
seeing that this could potentially be

667
00:33:57,094 --> 00:34:01,024
a major problem for us, so we need to
make sure we've got a handle on this.

668
00:34:01,024 --> 00:34:06,214
And of course, um, you know, your
state of SaaS applications, um, is

669
00:34:06,219 --> 00:34:07,474
certainly gonna play a role there.

670
00:34:08,009 --> 00:34:09,179
W. Curtis Preston: Well, you
look at, you look at what

671
00:34:09,184 --> 00:34:11,039
happened with Rackspace, right?

672
00:34:11,549 --> 00:34:17,219
Um, that, I mean, it wasn't 365,
but it was, it was hosted exchange.

673
00:34:17,789 --> 00:34:24,509
And, um, you know, basically they,
they did get the customers, well,

674
00:34:25,439 --> 00:34:28,109
they did make the
customer's data available.

675
00:34:28,229 --> 00:34:28,649
Right.

676
00:34:28,859 --> 00:34:33,509
Be because they, they made, I don't
know, they had a tough decision as to.

677
00:34:34,349 --> 00:34:39,329
They, they couldn't get the data back
quick enough, and so they made a decision

678
00:34:39,329 --> 00:34:41,609
to just move everybody over to 365.

679
00:34:41,849 --> 00:34:44,969
But all they did was they just
moved their accounts over to 365.

680
00:34:44,969 --> 00:34:45,149
Right.

681
00:34:45,154 --> 00:34:46,379
And they started doing email.

682
00:34:46,379 --> 00:34:46,619
Right.

683
00:34:46,619 --> 00:34:46,889
Right.

684
00:34:47,009 --> 00:34:49,139
And the customer's like, okay, good.

685
00:34:49,199 --> 00:34:50,729
We're glad we have email.

686
00:34:50,819 --> 00:34:52,799
What about the old email?

687
00:34:53,129 --> 00:35:00,299
And the, there was no vehicle to get the,
there was no path to get the data out

688
00:35:00,299 --> 00:35:04,964
of exchange and sort of, Into, into 365.

689
00:35:04,964 --> 00:35:10,574
And so they eventually, they created
like little, little, um, PSTs basically

690
00:35:11,024 --> 00:35:15,794
that customers could download their
own data and then import it into 365.

691
00:35:16,274 --> 00:35:20,924
Uh, but, uh, uh, but
yeah, it just illustrates.

692
00:35:21,794 --> 00:35:24,104
Uh, and by the way,
that took months, right?

693
00:35:25,394 --> 00:35:29,684
Um, and there's a, and there's a
lawsuit about it, but there, I, I

694
00:35:29,684 --> 00:35:32,924
don't think there's been enough there.

695
00:35:32,984 --> 00:35:40,154
Um, I, I, as, as sad as this sounds, it
will probably take a few more, um, very

696
00:35:40,154 --> 00:35:46,514
public, very damaging, very newsworthy
ransomware attacks on SaaS providers,

697
00:35:46,544 --> 00:35:48,494
uh, for people to, to wake up and

698
00:35:48,644 --> 00:35:49,574
Krista Maccomber: To really get it.

699
00:35:49,694 --> 00:35:50,054
Yep.

700
00:35:51,194 --> 00:35:54,794
Yeah, it's, um, yeah, no,
I, I completely agree.

701
00:35:54,914 --> 00:35:58,874
And I think one thing that's kind
of a little bit unique with this

702
00:35:58,874 --> 00:36:03,284
market too, I think is just the
number of SaaS applications that

703
00:36:03,284 --> 00:36:08,324
enterprises are using and that
they will be using moving forward.

704
00:36:08,384 --> 00:36:14,414
And so, um, You know, how do you pick
your battles, right, in terms of having a

705
00:36:14,744 --> 00:36:19,454
solution that is, you know, specifically
tailored to that, to protecting that one

706
00:36:19,454 --> 00:36:23,894
application versus potentially something
that's a little bit more general purpose,

707
00:36:23,894 --> 00:36:28,814
maybe more API driven in terms of how it
integrates with, um, the SaaS application,

708
00:36:28,814 --> 00:36:32,714
just to make sure that there at least
is some basic levels of protection.

709
00:36:32,714 --> 00:36:38,044
So, um, I think that's something, you
know, over the next maybe year or two,

710
00:36:38,044 --> 00:36:41,614
I think we'll, we'll probably start
hearing a little bit more about as

711
00:36:42,124 --> 00:36:47,974
the awareness, um, increases and, um,
just as enterprises are using more

712
00:36:47,974 --> 00:36:51,604
SaaS applications, I think that's
gonna be, well, one of the problems,

713
00:36:51,664 --> 00:36:53,824
um, on the list to address for sure.

714
00:36:55,634 --> 00:36:58,814
Prasanna Malaiyandi: W I know we talked
about SaaS applications, and I'm not

715
00:36:58,814 --> 00:37:02,714
surprised, like enterprises probably
have hundreds of SaaS apps, right?

716
00:37:03,104 --> 00:37:04,664
Uh, that they're using internally.

717
00:37:04,664 --> 00:37:07,334
And it's probably, like you said, it's
gonna get worse because everyone's

718
00:37:07,334 --> 00:37:10,964
constantly, like if you look at how many
new SaaS apps are being built every day,

719
00:37:10,964 --> 00:37:12,674
and it's like, Hey, here's this new app.

720
00:37:12,734 --> 00:37:13,994
Should we start using it or not?

721
00:37:13,994 --> 00:37:16,154
It gets difficult to manage.

722
00:37:16,484 --> 00:37:18,434
Uh, Switching from Sapp.

723
00:37:18,434 --> 00:37:22,214
So I was wondering your thoughts
around Kubernetes, right?

724
00:37:22,214 --> 00:37:24,914
I know Kubernetes has
been hot for a while.

725
00:37:24,974 --> 00:37:29,594
Um, everyone's been like, Hey, it
provides availability and scalability

726
00:37:29,594 --> 00:37:32,864
and just sort of, I know Curtis, when
we've talked about Kubernetes and the

727
00:37:32,864 --> 00:37:36,344
past had sort of exploded with like, how
are you gonna protect things as they're

728
00:37:36,344 --> 00:37:38,324
constantly spinning up, spinning down and

729
00:37:38,344 --> 00:37:40,424
W. Curtis Preston: It's, it's the
only thing I care about is that,

730
00:37:40,424 --> 00:37:41,384
how are you gonna back it up?

731
00:37:42,134 --> 00:37:42,524
Prasanna Malaiyandi: Right.

732
00:37:42,524 --> 00:37:45,374
And sort of like, what are you
starting to see in this area?

733
00:37:47,204 --> 00:37:47,744
Krista Maccomber: Yeah.

734
00:37:47,774 --> 00:37:51,164
Yeah, so it's been interesting and
it's something that we've, um, so

735
00:37:51,164 --> 00:37:56,864
we've been tracking it from, I would
say three perspectives as a company.

736
00:37:57,254 --> 00:38:01,124
So we have been looking at, um,
you know, the adoption of what

737
00:38:01,124 --> 00:38:04,844
we're calling some of these, um,
container management platforms, right?

738
00:38:04,844 --> 00:38:05,804
Like a Kubernetes.

739
00:38:06,224 --> 00:38:11,684
Um, we've been looking at how the market
for persistent storage, um, for Kubernetes

740
00:38:11,684 --> 00:38:13,754
applications has been developing as well.

741
00:38:13,994 --> 00:38:17,804
So that includes not just backup, it
includes the production storage as well.

742
00:38:18,134 --> 00:38:21,644
And then really my role has been to
look at, okay, you know, as Curtis

743
00:38:21,644 --> 00:38:24,584
is mentioning, that's all great,
but what about the protection?

744
00:38:25,094 --> 00:38:34,229
Um, so, um, we are seeing that, um, There
still is a little bit of a disconnect.

745
00:38:34,529 --> 00:38:39,269
I'm sure this will shock you between
developers and IT operations.

746
00:38:39,269 --> 00:38:40,229
I know this will shock

747
00:38:40,469 --> 00:38:41,129
W. Curtis Preston: Shocked.

748
00:38:41,309 --> 00:38:41,759
Shocked.

749
00:38:41,759 --> 00:38:42,629
I am, I tell you.

750
00:38:42,629 --> 00:38:43,289
Shocked.

751
00:38:44,819 --> 00:38:46,409
Krista Maccomber: don't try,
don't fall outta your chair.

752
00:38:46,799 --> 00:38:52,979
Um, so, um, you know, I guess double
clicking down into, you know, really

753
00:38:52,979 --> 00:38:57,539
the focus of, you know, Our perspectives
and maybe our audience on this show.

754
00:38:57,539 --> 00:39:02,099
So, um, these applications are
beginning to enter production.

755
00:39:02,459 --> 00:39:05,939
Um, so they are, you know, doing
things like requiring persistent

756
00:39:05,939 --> 00:39:09,689
storage, which as we all know
is going to need protection.

757
00:39:10,199 --> 00:39:16,604
Um, Now how that's translating
over to IT operations by and large.

758
00:39:16,604 --> 00:39:21,194
So I did not have the pleasure
of attending KubeCon, um, in

759
00:39:21,199 --> 00:39:25,214
Amsterdam this spring, but I was
out in Detroit this past fall.

760
00:39:25,394 --> 00:39:28,064
Um, and we did have a number
of team members, um, at the,

761
00:39:28,064 --> 00:39:29,214
the spring event this year.

762
00:39:29,984 --> 00:39:36,344
And, um, for IT operations, it's still
very much a narrative of, okay, I'm

763
00:39:36,344 --> 00:39:38,354
hearing about this Kubernetes thing.

764
00:39:38,729 --> 00:39:43,649
I am aware that I need to pay,
be paying attention to it, and I

765
00:39:43,649 --> 00:39:48,779
need to start figuring it out, but
it's not really yet crossing my

766
00:39:48,779 --> 00:39:51,029
desk, um, on a day-to-day basis.

767
00:39:51,209 --> 00:39:56,129
So that's what we're seeing by and
large, whether or not that is the reality

768
00:39:56,129 --> 00:39:58,199
of the urgency that they should have.

769
00:39:58,199 --> 00:40:03,479
That is maybe a different story, but, um,
especially when we think about protection,

770
00:40:03,539 --> 00:40:06,089
um, it's, it's still very nascent.

771
00:40:06,479 --> 00:40:11,174
Um, And I would say what we're
seeing is still a lot of the,

772
00:40:11,384 --> 00:40:12,704
you know, do it yourself.

773
00:40:12,709 --> 00:40:18,164
I'm using an open source tool like
Valero, um, to kind of script it.

774
00:40:18,224 --> 00:40:24,674
Um, and I'm maybe not quite really using
a lot in the form of a third party tool

775
00:40:24,679 --> 00:40:28,664
for protecting these applications, at
least from a data protection standpoint.

776
00:40:28,873 --> 00:40:31,543
Prasanna Malaiyandi: and I'm guessing
just like SaaS applications, right?

777
00:40:31,543 --> 00:40:33,943
Until you get to that point where there's.

778
00:40:34,328 --> 00:40:37,778
Data that gets lost because no
one backed it up or I couldn't

779
00:40:37,778 --> 00:40:39,248
restore it, or ransomware hit.

780
00:40:39,248 --> 00:40:42,908
I was just reading something recently
about ransomware now starting to target

781
00:40:42,908 --> 00:40:44,588
like Kubernetes applications, right?

782
00:40:44,588 --> 00:40:47,168
So until you get to that stage,
right, there's probably no

783
00:40:47,168 --> 00:40:48,968
driving force necessarily.

784
00:40:49,973 --> 00:40:51,503
Krista Maccomber: yeah, yeah, exactly.

785
00:40:51,503 --> 00:40:55,073
Because it's, um, you know,
Kubernetes has been driven into

786
00:40:55,073 --> 00:40:57,393
the enterprise by developers and.

787
00:40:58,718 --> 00:41:01,868
In fairness, developers are doing
their job, they're developing

788
00:41:01,868 --> 00:41:06,128
applications and they're trying to
be as agile and quick, you know, all

789
00:41:06,128 --> 00:41:08,108
those terms that we love as possible.

790
00:41:08,108 --> 00:41:12,098
And they're, they're not trained,
um, in data protection and

791
00:41:12,098 --> 00:41:13,958
proper data protection, hygiene.

792
00:41:13,963 --> 00:41:18,578
And, you know, I would argue, nor
should they be, um, But you know, as

793
00:41:18,578 --> 00:41:21,878
you're alluding to Prasanna, it's only
when it becomes a problem, I think

794
00:41:21,878 --> 00:41:23,798
that there becomes that awareness.

795
00:41:24,188 --> 00:41:27,938
Um, and I think in the Kubernetes piece,
you're also fighting against a couple

796
00:41:27,943 --> 00:41:31,718
of other challenges, one of which I
kind of alluded to, which is, oh, well

797
00:41:31,718 --> 00:41:33,848
Kubernetes is only for test and dev.

798
00:41:34,238 --> 00:41:35,378
Well, we're number one.

799
00:41:35,383 --> 00:41:36,128
We're seeing that that's.

800
00:41:36,463 --> 00:41:38,113
Actually not even true anymore.

801
00:41:38,113 --> 00:41:41,953
We are seeing production workloads are
being run on Kubernetes environments.

802
00:41:42,253 --> 00:41:47,143
Um, but also when you think about if
a developer needs to roll anything

803
00:41:47,148 --> 00:41:50,743
back, well then there does need
to be a form of protection there.

804
00:41:51,103 --> 00:41:57,053
Um, and I think the other piece too
is that there's this, um, Assumption

805
00:41:57,053 --> 00:42:01,913
that because Kubernetes applications
are architected to be very resilient,

806
00:42:02,303 --> 00:42:05,393
that that then translates into data
protection, which of course, you know,

807
00:42:05,398 --> 00:42:08,603
I think we, we know that that's not
true, but I, I think there needs to

808
00:42:08,608 --> 00:42:10,973
be some education on that front also.

809
00:42:12,083 --> 00:42:12,623
W. Curtis Preston: Yeah.

810
00:42:12,683 --> 00:42:17,183
Uh, you know, it, it is just, it's just
like the la you know, SaaS and Kubernetes.

811
00:42:17,183 --> 00:42:18,173
It's just the latest.

812
00:42:19,013 --> 00:42:22,763
Thing on a long list of stuff
that isn't backup, right?

813
00:42:23,843 --> 00:42:27,383
Like, you know, the, the first
thing I remember was raid, right?

814
00:42:27,443 --> 00:42:29,843
It was like, well, you
know, we, we got it on Raid.

815
00:42:30,023 --> 00:42:30,623
It's on raid.

816
00:42:30,623 --> 00:42:31,553
We don't need to back it up.

817
00:42:31,613 --> 00:42:39,533
Like, ah, you know, you know, I, I had
the luxury at, when I first, my first

818
00:42:39,533 --> 00:42:42,503
job, it was at a bank credit card company.

819
00:42:42,783 --> 00:42:45,663
And we had a guy, his
name was Joe Fitzpatrick.

820
00:42:45,783 --> 00:42:50,673
He was the guy that always, he wasn't a
backup guy, he was a cis admin guy, but

821
00:42:50,673 --> 00:42:54,813
he would always, every time he was a, so
he was in a lot more meetings than I was.

822
00:42:54,813 --> 00:42:55,893
I was a backup guy.

823
00:42:56,103 --> 00:42:58,743
I'm just, you know, the guy in the
data center with the tapes, right?

824
00:42:59,193 --> 00:43:02,063
He's in like the meetings where
they're talking about new things.

825
00:43:02,798 --> 00:43:07,838
And Joe would always raise his hand
and say, are we getting this on tape?

826
00:43:07,868 --> 00:43:08,888
That was Joe's question.

827
00:43:09,098 --> 00:43:10,238
Are we getting this on tape?

828
00:43:10,238 --> 00:43:10,478
Right.

829
00:43:10,478 --> 00:43:14,688
As in this, this new application that
you're describing sounds amazing.

830
00:43:15,328 --> 00:43:15,448
I.

831
00:43:15,448 --> 00:43:16,718
How will we back it up?

832
00:43:17,228 --> 00:43:17,678
Right?

833
00:43:18,068 --> 00:43:21,038
Because you know, you talk about,
you talk about, when I hear like,

834
00:43:21,068 --> 00:43:23,078
oh, it's only test and dev, right?

835
00:43:23,108 --> 00:43:24,578
Dev is what?

836
00:43:24,668 --> 00:43:25,238
Test.

837
00:43:25,298 --> 00:43:30,068
Not so much maybe, but Dev, that's
actual work that someone's doing.

838
00:43:30,458 --> 00:43:30,968
Right?

839
00:43:31,238 --> 00:43:33,668
That, you know, when I think
about, oh, it's only Dev.

840
00:43:34,388 --> 00:43:38,198
Uh, I think back again, back to that
bank, one of the last things that

841
00:43:38,198 --> 00:43:45,518
happened to me when I was there is a
group of people came up and, um, they, um,

842
00:43:45,533 --> 00:43:45,823
Krista Maccomber: Okay.

843
00:43:46,538 --> 00:43:48,788
W. Curtis Preston: they had lost
their entire, it was like a group of

844
00:43:48,788 --> 00:43:51,698
like, it was a bunch of developers.

845
00:43:51,698 --> 00:43:54,428
Like the number 45 is up
in my head, but this is.

846
00:43:55,013 --> 00:43:58,493
You know, 35 years ago,
it's like 45 developers.

847
00:43:58,493 --> 00:43:59,963
They were consultants, right?

848
00:43:59,968 --> 00:44:02,273
So they were being paid back
then, probably a hundred,

849
00:44:02,273 --> 00:44:04,283
150 bucks an hour, right?

850
00:44:04,283 --> 00:44:07,343
And they had worked for three
months on a source code tree,

851
00:44:07,733 --> 00:44:10,853
and they had stored it in temp.

852
00:44:11,483 --> 00:44:18,473
Okay, on, on, on hps, which on
hps, back then temp was in ram.

853
00:44:18,773 --> 00:44:25,403
So when you rebooted the server, temp
was cleared out and um, they, um,

854
00:44:26,303 --> 00:44:27,443
they were, they were coming to me.

855
00:44:27,443 --> 00:44:29,333
They wanted me to restore
the source code tree.

856
00:44:29,693 --> 00:44:31,433
I'm like, we don't back up temp.

857
00:44:31,493 --> 00:44:31,883
It's.

858
00:44:32,318 --> 00:44:34,298
It's, it's ram, right?

859
00:44:34,328 --> 00:44:37,298
They're, they're like,
yeah, it's temp, it's temp.

860
00:44:37,658 --> 00:44:40,808
And they're like, no, you don't understand
this source code is really important.

861
00:44:40,808 --> 00:44:44,498
I'm like, you don't understand,
we, we don't back up temp.

862
00:44:44,948 --> 00:44:45,458
Right?

863
00:44:45,638 --> 00:44:46,088
Like,

864
00:44:46,538 --> 00:44:46,828
Krista Maccomber: wand.

865
00:44:47,228 --> 00:44:51,458
W. Curtis Preston: who, who puts,
who puts their source code in temp?

866
00:44:52,238 --> 00:44:57,233
Uh, You know, it's like, like I, like
I knew somebody that stored important

867
00:44:57,233 --> 00:45:02,453
stuff and they would, they used the,
uh, the recycle bin as a filing method.

868
00:45:02,753 --> 00:45:05,183
Like they would do their stuff and
then they would delete it and they

869
00:45:05,183 --> 00:45:07,043
would put stuff into the recycle bin.

870
00:45:07,583 --> 00:45:10,073
Like, and then they would pull it
outta the recycle bin when they wanted

871
00:45:10,073 --> 00:45:12,803
to work with it and then delete it
and put it back in the recycle bin.

872
00:45:13,668 --> 00:45:14,148
Krista Maccomber: my God.

873
00:45:14,603 --> 00:45:17,033
W. Curtis Preston: When you, when you,
when you mentioned that like developers

874
00:45:17,033 --> 00:45:21,443
or, or a lot of, just, a lot of people,
not just developers, but a lot of.

875
00:45:22,718 --> 00:45:29,168
IT people, they just don't have the,
you know, the backup and recovery and

876
00:45:29,168 --> 00:45:34,658
the cyber recovery chops to know the
things they should be doing or not doing.

877
00:45:34,898 --> 00:45:35,318
Right.

878
00:45:35,393 --> 00:45:35,813
Krista Maccomber: Yeah.

879
00:45:36,233 --> 00:45:38,483
Yeah, it, yeah, exactly.

880
00:45:38,483 --> 00:45:42,143
So how do we, how do we build that
awareness, you know, and a little bit

881
00:45:42,143 --> 00:45:46,313
more, but you know, you don't necessarily
wanna bog, especially these devs down

882
00:45:46,313 --> 00:45:48,683
with, you know, all the nitty gritty.

883
00:45:48,683 --> 00:45:52,838
So then how do you start, you know,
The term is kind of baking it in, but

884
00:45:52,838 --> 00:45:58,058
how do you integrate tools across that
pipeline, um, to make it at least as

885
00:45:58,058 --> 00:45:59,768
streamlined and as easy as possible?

886
00:45:59,768 --> 00:46:04,118
And that way you don't get to that
point where, oh, well we just lost three

887
00:46:04,118 --> 00:46:08,288
months of source code development work
because we had to reboot our server.

888
00:46:08,873 --> 00:46:11,873
W. Curtis Preston: yeah, I mean
the, the key, I think the, the,

889
00:46:11,933 --> 00:46:16,193
the, the first hurdle that we all
have to get over for, for SaaS, for

890
00:46:16,198 --> 00:46:20,063
Kubernetes, for, um, multi node.

891
00:46:21,218 --> 00:46:25,358
Uh, high availability databases
like Cassandra and Mongo, right?

892
00:46:25,388 --> 00:46:29,948
Is we just, can we all just agree
this needs to be backed up, right?

893
00:46:29,948 --> 00:46:32,468
That, that's the, that's
the first hurdle, right?

894
00:46:32,473 --> 00:46:36,098
Because there's just way too
many people that are like, well,

895
00:46:36,098 --> 00:46:37,838
Microsoft's backing it up, right?

896
00:46:37,928 --> 00:46:38,318
No.

897
00:46:38,618 --> 00:46:41,438
Um, well, it's, it's, it's,
it's a multi-node database.

898
00:46:41,438 --> 00:46:44,828
It can survive, you know,
all these things, right?

899
00:46:44,828 --> 00:46:46,478
What happens when you drop a table?

900
00:46:46,988 --> 00:46:48,638
Uh,

901
00:46:48,968 --> 00:46:50,978
Prasanna Malaiyandi: Can I add,
can I add something to your list?

902
00:46:51,728 --> 00:46:52,088
W. Curtis Preston: Add,

903
00:46:52,418 --> 00:46:53,168
Prasanna Malaiyandi: object store.

904
00:46:54,008 --> 00:46:54,758
W. Curtis Preston: Oh, object story.

905
00:46:54,848 --> 00:46:55,988
Yeah, absolutely.

906
00:46:55,988 --> 00:46:56,348
Right.

907
00:46:56,678 --> 00:47:01,478
Um, you know, the, the question is how
do we, you know, can we, can we, can

908
00:47:01,483 --> 00:47:03,968
we just, that's the, that's the hurdle.

909
00:47:03,968 --> 00:47:06,638
You know, you, you talked,
Krista, you talked about, um, you

910
00:47:06,638 --> 00:47:07,868
know, we just need to educate.

911
00:47:08,528 --> 00:47:10,358
That's the initial hurdle, right?

912
00:47:10,358 --> 00:47:15,593
And then, So then it is like, well, how
do you get any kind of backup, right?

913
00:47:15,593 --> 00:47:20,483
So like Salesforce, you, you can
manually get a crappy backup, right?

914
00:47:20,483 --> 00:47:21,653
You can do it once a week.

915
00:47:21,653 --> 00:47:25,703
You can download it, just
get something so that when.

916
00:47:26,063 --> 00:47:28,943
You know, and, and I've told the
story, I'm not gonna tell it again,

917
00:47:28,943 --> 00:47:32,633
but I, once, when I was administering
a Salesforce environment with a million

918
00:47:32,633 --> 00:47:37,343
and a half records, basically jumbled
the thing and put all the wrong phone

919
00:47:37,343 --> 00:47:41,183
numbers to all the wrong people,
like in, in, in like, like that, I

920
00:47:41,183 --> 00:47:43,553
managed to corrupt the entire company.

921
00:47:43,613 --> 00:47:44,003
Right?

922
00:47:44,753 --> 00:47:49,278
But in case something like
that happens, What do you have?

923
00:47:49,578 --> 00:47:49,938
Right.

924
00:47:49,978 --> 00:47:53,448
Even, even and, and then, and then
it's the walk before we can run.

925
00:47:53,448 --> 00:47:53,748
Yes.

926
00:47:53,748 --> 00:47:54,708
I, I do.

927
00:47:54,708 --> 00:48:00,108
I hope I, I know, I know that over the
next few years, the number of ways that

928
00:48:00,108 --> 00:48:02,568
we can protect SAS apps will get better.

929
00:48:02,838 --> 00:48:07,988
I was very encouraged by, I was at
HYCU, uh, headquarters, uh, last week.

930
00:48:08,028 --> 00:48:10,428
I was very encouraged by
their approach of the.

931
00:48:10,808 --> 00:48:13,928
The API so that the SaaS
companies can program to them.

932
00:48:13,928 --> 00:48:15,278
I was very encouraged by that.

933
00:48:15,458 --> 00:48:18,158
I know they, uh, and at
least one other company,

934
00:48:18,428 --> 00:48:20,858
um, GRA is taking that approach.

935
00:48:20,858 --> 00:48:22,148
I was very encouraged by that.

936
00:48:22,508 --> 00:48:25,838
And, and, and there's a lot going
on in the Kubernetes backup space.

937
00:48:26,138 --> 00:48:30,278
Uh, S3 is problematic Prasanna, you know,

938
00:48:30,388 --> 00:48:33,178
Prasanna Malaiyandi: there's, well,
granted, there's versioning, right?

939
00:48:33,418 --> 00:48:36,418
There's cross region replication, right?

940
00:48:36,808 --> 00:48:37,858
Uh, they've built a

941
00:48:37,973 --> 00:48:39,083
W. Curtis Preston: No, what
I, no, what I'm saying,

942
00:48:39,598 --> 00:48:39,928
Prasanna Malaiyandi: yeah.

943
00:48:40,223 --> 00:48:42,893
W. Curtis Preston: sorry to interrupt
you, but what I meant was, what I meant

944
00:48:42,893 --> 00:48:46,133
was it's difficult to back up, right?

945
00:48:46,133 --> 00:48:49,943
There's not the, the features
aren't there necessarily.

946
00:48:49,943 --> 00:48:53,153
You know, I, I, because I speak
working at a company that was

947
00:48:53,153 --> 00:48:54,443
trying to figure that out.

948
00:48:55,358 --> 00:48:56,198
It was not easy.

949
00:48:57,008 --> 00:48:57,398
Right.

950
00:48:57,788 --> 00:49:01,658
Um, sort of like Microsoft 365,
it's, they didn't want a backup.

951
00:49:01,658 --> 00:49:03,008
They didn't want people backing it up.

952
00:49:03,538 --> 00:49:03,828
Prasanna Malaiyandi: Yeah.

953
00:49:04,058 --> 00:49:05,858
W. Curtis Preston: They, it wasn't
until just recently that they

954
00:49:05,858 --> 00:49:07,478
actually came out with an API for it.

955
00:49:07,838 --> 00:49:11,198
But anyway, my hope, my hope is
for the future that stuff will

956
00:49:11,203 --> 00:49:13,748
get better, but just like day one.

957
00:49:13,748 --> 00:49:17,228
My, my, my thing is, and I think it
sounds like you're on the same page,

958
00:49:17,228 --> 00:49:21,758
Krista, is like, just make sure we can
all agree that there is nothing magic.

959
00:49:21,848 --> 00:49:23,228
The cloud is not magic.

960
00:49:23,933 --> 00:49:25,583
Kubernetes is not magic.

961
00:49:25,853 --> 00:49:30,623
My Tesla is not magic, even though
it feels like it sometimes, right?

962
00:49:30,923 --> 00:49:31,853
Um, you know what?

963
00:49:31,853 --> 00:49:32,393
That, you know what?

964
00:49:32,393 --> 00:49:33,633
I need Prasanna.

965
00:49:33,963 --> 00:49:35,093
Prasanna Malaiyandi:
back up for your Tesla.

966
00:49:35,513 --> 00:49:36,233
W. Curtis Preston: I need a backup.

967
00:49:36,233 --> 00:49:36,743
Tesla.

968
00:49:39,293 --> 00:49:42,263
Anyway, one, one step at a time.

969
00:49:42,263 --> 00:49:43,163
One step at a time.

970
00:49:43,163 --> 00:49:45,203
Right now my backup Tesla is a Prius.

971
00:49:45,653 --> 00:49:48,293
Uh, that's sitting right
next to it and very sad.

972
00:49:48,293 --> 00:49:50,303
It's, it's thinking like
I'm gonna get rid of her.

973
00:49:50,303 --> 00:49:51,863
And it's probably true.

974
00:49:52,643 --> 00:49:57,293
Um, but yeah, if we can just, if we
can all just say, let's look at, let's

975
00:49:57,298 --> 00:49:59,363
prayer, let's acknowledge the problem.

976
00:49:59,843 --> 00:50:00,413
Right.

977
00:50:00,683 --> 00:50:02,483
We need like a 12 step thing, right?

978
00:50:02,483 --> 00:50:06,563
Acknowledge that we are
powerless over data loss, right?

979
00:50:07,043 --> 00:50:14,453
Uh, and then we just, and then we
just, we prioritize, uh, what we, so

980
00:50:14,458 --> 00:50:16,193
we're, we're, we're a company, right?

981
00:50:16,193 --> 00:50:18,383
And we prioritize, all right?

982
00:50:18,383 --> 00:50:20,603
We're using Kubernetes, we're using 365.

983
00:50:20,603 --> 00:50:21,833
We're using Salesforce.

984
00:50:22,583 --> 00:50:27,653
What would really shoot us in
the foot if we lost it, right?

985
00:50:27,863 --> 00:50:30,443
And we're like, oh my God, that's
Salesforce for, for whoever.

986
00:50:30,473 --> 00:50:31,853
No, it's just a fictional company.

987
00:50:31,853 --> 00:50:32,063
Right?

988
00:50:32,243 --> 00:50:34,013
So for us it's, so,
it's gotta be all right.

989
00:50:34,043 --> 00:50:36,893
So get something quick,
get a backup of that.

990
00:50:37,313 --> 00:50:37,613
Right?

991
00:50:37,613 --> 00:50:38,603
Get us, save ours.

992
00:50:38,603 --> 00:50:38,963
Backup.

993
00:50:38,968 --> 00:50:39,983
It's not a good one.

994
00:50:40,193 --> 00:50:43,553
It's a crappy manual and we gotta
do once a week, just get that done.

995
00:50:43,928 --> 00:50:49,148
And, and then, and then go out and
start looking for like better solutions.

996
00:50:49,148 --> 00:50:52,988
I'm sorry, I I, I got up on a soapbox
there for a minute, Krista, but what do

997
00:50:52,988 --> 00:50:54,218
you think, what do you think about that?

998
00:50:55,268 --> 00:50:55,488
Krista Maccomber: So.

999
00:50:55,698 --> 00:50:56,898
I think it's great advice.

1000
00:50:56,898 --> 00:51:00,888
I think we need to crawl before
we can walk, before we can run.

1001
00:51:01,308 --> 00:51:05,838
Um, and I think that having something
basic in place is better than nothing.

1002
00:51:05,898 --> 00:51:06,828
Um, of course.

1003
00:51:07,308 --> 00:51:09,408
And then from there we can
start to look at, like you were

1004
00:51:09,413 --> 00:51:11,118
mentioning, Curtis, what is critical?

1005
00:51:11,298 --> 00:51:14,628
Um, and if it is our Salesforce
implementation, maybe we do

1006
00:51:14,628 --> 00:51:17,868
need, um, one of these more
sophisticated third party tools.

1007
00:51:17,898 --> 00:51:20,808
You know, kind of what you're
alluding to Curtis in terms of, okay.

1008
00:51:21,103 --> 00:51:24,673
All of these, um, different records
and hierarchies, we need to be able

1009
00:51:24,673 --> 00:51:29,623
to, um, you know, bring those back as
quickly as possible if something happens.

1010
00:51:29,623 --> 00:51:32,203
And so that's where some of these
third party tools might come in.

1011
00:51:32,208 --> 00:51:34,063
But I do appreciate the soapbox.

1012
00:51:34,063 --> 00:51:35,293
I think it was good advice.

1013
00:51:36,308 --> 00:51:36,848
W. Curtis Preston: Yeah.

1014
00:51:36,908 --> 00:51:42,488
I, I think like, if, if, if we like just
you, you got, we gotta triage, right?

1015
00:51:42,578 --> 00:51:45,038
And like in, in the case of Salesforce,
I, yeah, I keep throwing it out.

1016
00:51:45,038 --> 00:51:49,088
In the case of Salesforce, they have a
product, like Salesforce has a native,

1017
00:51:49,208 --> 00:51:51,728
they now have a native backup product.

1018
00:51:51,728 --> 00:51:56,198
My understanding is it's, it's
expensive af but it's there, right?

1019
00:51:56,228 --> 00:51:57,938
And you could sign up for that.

1020
00:51:57,938 --> 00:52:00,668
I don't know, in classic
Salesforce, you know.

1021
00:52:01,428 --> 00:52:04,338
World, you probably have
to sign up for a year.

1022
00:52:05,208 --> 00:52:07,008
You know, Salesforce is right.

1023
00:52:07,248 --> 00:52:09,948
They, they charge you by the month,
but they bill you by the year.

1024
00:52:09,953 --> 00:52:10,278
Right?

1025
00:52:10,338 --> 00:52:14,658
Um, so that, that might, that
might be a way to do it, right?

1026
00:52:14,838 --> 00:52:18,618
Get something for those critical apps.

1027
00:52:18,678 --> 00:52:22,488
Uh, you know, maybe your
critical app is Cassandra, right?

1028
00:52:22,578 --> 00:52:28,158
Um, you know, maybe it's Kubernetes,
maybe god forbid Prasanna, maybe it's s3.

1029
00:52:29,703 --> 00:52:32,403
Prasanna Malaiyandi: Who knows, it
might be right, but I think this is

1030
00:52:32,403 --> 00:52:35,853
where, and Curtis just calling out
your, uh, plug for your book, right?

1031
00:52:35,853 --> 00:52:36,753
Modern Data Protection.

1032
00:52:36,753 --> 00:52:37,023
Right?

1033
00:52:37,263 --> 00:52:40,263
But this is where, right, the, I
think what it's chapter two, where

1034
00:52:40,263 --> 00:52:43,683
it's like, talk to the business
and the stakeholders, right?

1035
00:52:43,683 --> 00:52:45,183
Get down the requirements.

1036
00:52:45,188 --> 00:52:48,933
Really understand what is important,
because what you might think is important

1037
00:52:48,933 --> 00:52:51,243
is different than what someone else
thinks is important or what someone else

1038
00:52:51,243 --> 00:52:54,393
thinks is important different than what
someone else thinks is important, right?

1039
00:52:54,393 --> 00:52:58,338
So, Make sure you're all on the same
page, and you can sort of prioritize that

1040
00:52:58,338 --> 00:53:02,508
list and be like, yep, Salesforce is our
top critical app for our entire company.

1041
00:53:02,508 --> 00:53:03,528
Let's go figure that out.

1042
00:53:04,413 --> 00:53:05,973
W. Curtis Preston: Number one mistake.

1043
00:53:06,063 --> 00:53:09,753
Well, number one mistake made by
backup people is not backing stuff up.

1044
00:53:09,753 --> 00:53:14,583
Number two is making up their
mind on what's important.

1045
00:53:14,853 --> 00:53:15,303
Right?

1046
00:53:15,423 --> 00:53:21,033
You, you, you know, if you're a typical,
as I make quotes in the air, a typical

1047
00:53:21,033 --> 00:53:25,173
backup admin, you're often junior, which I
hate that, but that's just the way it is.

1048
00:53:25,353 --> 00:53:26,883
You're up to junior in the organization.

1049
00:53:26,883 --> 00:53:29,253
You're not privy to all
these discussions on what.

1050
00:53:30,318 --> 00:53:31,548
Is important to your company?

1051
00:53:31,548 --> 00:53:34,518
Get get yourself in those discussions.

1052
00:53:34,578 --> 00:53:39,018
Um, I bet, I bet you see that a lot,
Krista, where like, you know, people

1053
00:53:39,023 --> 00:53:41,808
that they don't, they don't know
what they know or they don't, they

1054
00:53:41,813 --> 00:53:43,548
don't know what they don't know.

1055
00:53:43,548 --> 00:53:44,438
I think that was, I

1056
00:53:44,438 --> 00:53:45,598
think that's what I was
trying to say there.

1057
00:53:47,463 --> 00:53:48,363
Krista Maccomber: a hundred percent.

1058
00:53:48,483 --> 00:53:49,053
A hundred percent.

1059
00:53:49,053 --> 00:53:52,473
And that comes down to what you're
mentioning, Curtis, those higher level,

1060
00:53:52,473 --> 00:53:55,743
more strategic conversations about
what is important to our business.

1061
00:53:56,493 --> 00:54:01,953
But in the world of cloud and Dev DevOps,
bringing these Kubernetes environments,

1062
00:54:02,013 --> 00:54:03,903
you know, into the equation as well.

1063
00:54:04,383 --> 00:54:08,313
It also literally comes down to
what is our organization using?

1064
00:54:08,583 --> 00:54:10,893
What data are we even creating?

1065
00:54:11,313 --> 00:54:15,243
Um, you know, we're, we see in
some cases significant blind spots

1066
00:54:15,243 --> 00:54:18,823
because, um, you know, it just
was not kept in the loop and.

1067
00:54:19,593 --> 00:54:22,803
You know, somebody on the l o B side
just went and swiped their credit card

1068
00:54:22,803 --> 00:54:26,703
and now they're using, you know, this
different SaaS application, for example.

1069
00:54:27,183 --> 00:54:30,663
Um, and I know we already kind of
talked a little bit about that, um,

1070
00:54:31,203 --> 00:54:34,383
you know, that little bit of breakdown
between, you know, dev and IT ops.

1071
00:54:34,383 --> 00:54:38,283
So it's, I think it's, um,
twofold from that perspective.

1072
00:54:38,973 --> 00:54:42,633
W. Curtis Preston: Yeah, shadow it and
man, it seems like we could talk all day.

1073
00:54:42,873 --> 00:54:45,423
I, I just wanna, I just
wanna finish this, this idea.

1074
00:54:45,483 --> 00:54:45,693
Yeah.

1075
00:54:45,693 --> 00:54:47,523
The shadow IT thing again.

1076
00:54:48,423 --> 00:54:51,693
Uh, um, I'll just plug HYCU again.

1077
00:54:51,813 --> 00:54:56,313
They, they've got this cool app,
it won't fix the shadow IT problem,

1078
00:54:56,313 --> 00:55:01,008
but one thing they were able to
do, if you do use like Okta, Right.

1079
00:55:01,278 --> 00:55:05,538
Um, and, and the SaaS apps that work
with Okta, they can basically use Okta

1080
00:55:05,538 --> 00:55:08,358
as a way to inventory your environment.

1081
00:55:08,358 --> 00:55:11,208
I thought that was kind of, of the,
of the SaaS apps that you plug into

1082
00:55:11,388 --> 00:55:16,818
because the first thing, you know, the
first thing, uh, going back to that

1083
00:55:16,823 --> 00:55:20,778
list earlier, the first thing before
we figure out what's important, we

1084
00:55:20,783 --> 00:55:22,938
gotta find out what we have, right?

1085
00:55:22,998 --> 00:55:24,108
Um, all those apps.

1086
00:55:24,108 --> 00:55:25,278
So shadow it, shadow it.

1087
00:55:26,493 --> 00:55:27,603
That's a problem, right?

1088
00:55:27,603 --> 00:55:30,633
I mean, the only way you can
really a you, you can address that

1089
00:55:30,633 --> 00:55:34,383
with policy, like, don't do that.

1090
00:55:34,413 --> 00:55:37,623
Like, and you can address it with like,
if you turn around, if you turn around

1091
00:55:37,623 --> 00:55:42,603
and you've tried to expense those apps
and you're told, I'm sorry, what is this?

1092
00:55:42,693 --> 00:55:46,233
What, what, what is this product
that you're using, right?

1093
00:55:46,323 --> 00:55:47,973
Um, this looks fascinating.

1094
00:55:48,063 --> 00:55:52,263
Uh, what is it and what does it do and,
and why is it not plugged into Okta?

1095
00:55:52,668 --> 00:55:53,148
Right.

1096
00:55:53,178 --> 00:55:54,978
Or whatever it is that
the company's using.

1097
00:55:55,278 --> 00:55:55,728
Anyway,

1098
00:55:55,933 --> 00:55:56,153
Krista Maccomber: Yep.

1099
00:55:56,898 --> 00:55:58,278
W. Curtis Preston: uh,
we could talk all day.

1100
00:55:58,308 --> 00:56:01,428
Krista, uh, I think we've covered enough.

1101
00:56:01,698 --> 00:56:04,818
Um, is there anything that we,
that we didn't cover that you,

1102
00:56:04,848 --> 00:56:05,848
that you wanted to talk about?

1103
00:56:08,358 --> 00:56:09,018
Krista Maccomber: I don't think so.

1104
00:56:09,018 --> 00:56:12,348
I mean, those are two of really the
big, you know, the two big trends.

1105
00:56:12,348 --> 00:56:16,428
I guess three, you know, if you factor
in, um, you know, cybersecurity as well.

1106
00:56:16,728 --> 00:56:19,368
You know, those are really kind of
the big things that we're seeing.

1107
00:56:19,398 --> 00:56:23,448
Um, you know, of course we're getting into
all these conversations about, you know,

1108
00:56:23,453 --> 00:56:27,648
I, you mentioned, you know, different
third party tools need to be integrated

1109
00:56:27,648 --> 00:56:29,478
with the data protection solution.

1110
00:56:29,538 --> 00:56:33,333
Um, You know, you mentioned kind
of Okta from, you know, kind of

1111
00:56:33,333 --> 00:56:35,343
authentication and things of that nature.

1112
00:56:35,703 --> 00:56:38,703
Um, you know, we're also seeing
a lot of these, you know,

1113
00:56:39,093 --> 00:56:40,743
ransomware scanning tools.

1114
00:56:40,803 --> 00:56:41,583
Um, okay.

1115
00:56:41,583 --> 00:56:43,683
Where exactly does this
fit within that stack?

1116
00:56:43,688 --> 00:56:48,093
But that probably could be a topic for
a whole nother conversation, unless we

1117
00:56:48,093 --> 00:56:49,583
wanna hang out for another hour here.

1118
00:56:49,773 --> 00:56:50,073
Prasanna Malaiyandi: Yeah.

1119
00:56:50,103 --> 00:56:52,743
W. Curtis Preston: Yeah, I, I
honestly, I can't believe we

1120
00:56:52,748 --> 00:56:54,123
didn't talk about ransomware.

1121
00:56:54,843 --> 00:56:57,243
I mean, it came up, came up
a little bit here and there.

1122
00:56:57,813 --> 00:56:59,013
Uh, but,

1123
00:56:59,103 --> 00:57:00,453
Prasanna Malaiyandi: we'll
have you back on to talk

1124
00:57:00,633 --> 00:57:01,473
W. Curtis Preston: yeah, we'll definitely

1125
00:57:01,473 --> 00:57:01,923
have you back

1126
00:57:01,943 --> 00:57:02,423
Krista Maccomber: wonderful.

1127
00:57:03,033 --> 00:57:05,553
W. Curtis Preston: that, that's
a, that's an incredibly important

1128
00:57:05,553 --> 00:57:09,273
conversation that we continue to
have and I, I, I, I don't think we

1129
00:57:09,273 --> 00:57:11,403
can get enough perspectives on that.

1130
00:57:11,463 --> 00:57:13,923
Um, and clearly you care about this topic.

1131
00:57:13,923 --> 00:57:15,663
Clearly you understand this topic.

1132
00:57:15,993 --> 00:57:19,893
So, um, uh, I want to thank you
so much, uh, Krista coming on.

1133
00:57:20,838 --> 00:57:22,968
Krista Maccomber: Curtis and
Prasanna, thank you both so much.

1134
00:57:22,968 --> 00:57:26,148
This was very fun as always,
to chat with both of you.

1135
00:57:26,148 --> 00:57:28,098
And yeah, it was, it was a pleasure.

1136
00:57:28,098 --> 00:57:28,698
Thank you.

1137
00:57:29,208 --> 00:57:30,738
W. Curtis Preston: And
Prasanna, I want to thank you.

1138
00:57:30,738 --> 00:57:34,788
And by the way, also, if you want to
get me a backup, Tesla, it's okay.

1139
00:57:36,393 --> 00:57:38,463
Prasanna Malaiyandi: one of
those little tiny toy car ones

1140
00:57:38,958 --> 00:57:39,408
W. Curtis Preston: Yeah.

1141
00:57:40,143 --> 00:57:40,743
Prasanna Malaiyandi: that counts.

1142
00:57:41,933 --> 00:57:42,473
Thank you, Krista.

1143
00:57:42,473 --> 00:57:45,423
That was so nice to meet you and I
hope you come back on the podcast so

1144
00:57:45,423 --> 00:57:47,643
we can chitchat about cybersecurity.

1145
00:57:48,513 --> 00:57:49,893
Krista Maccomber: Anytime I'd love to.

1146
00:57:50,553 --> 00:57:53,103
W. Curtis Preston: And, uh, we of
course want to thank our listeners.

1147
00:57:53,103 --> 00:57:54,453
We'd be nothing without you.

1148
00:57:54,723 --> 00:57:58,143
Remember to subscribe so
that you can restore it all.