ONE GABRIELLA

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[00:00:00] Ross: Hi there, and a very warm welcome to Season five, episode 12 of People's Soup. It's Ross McIntosh.

[00:00:05] Gabriella: there definitely are themes. I mean, what I was noticing before and that led me to the book as well was just how much distress and damage was going on in the workplace and how unwell a lot of organizations were and how distressed a lot of people at work were. And the, you know, the mental health or mental illness statistics at work were and are grim.

[00:00:34] Gabriella: It is not good. And, and as you said, so much can go on in the workplace. We spent huge amounts of our lives in the workplace, so it really matters. And that, that was a huge motivation for me with the book.

[00:00:47] Ross: Pay Supers. Have I got a treat for you? If you work in hr, organizational psychology, organizational design, or you are an adult who's ever wondered about the world of work and how it can often feel like tales of the unexpected, then this is essential. Listen.

[00:01:05] Ross: Gabriella Braun is the director of Working Well, a specialist consultancy firm that uses psychoanalytic and systemic thinking to help leaders and teams understand the hidden truths of their behavior at work. Gabriella has also written an amazing book called All That We Are Uncovering The Hidden Truths Behind Our Behavior at Work, and this episode just happens to go inside with the publication of the paperback of the book.

[00:01:33] Ross: That is the 2nd of February, 2023, and I will boldly predict that you'll love this book, pk. So get out there and grab a copy. And it's also available in hardback, Kindle, and audio.

[00:01:48] Ross: In part one of our chat, you'll get to know a bit more about Gabriella, her childhood. What happened when she entered the world of work and then became a more senior leader feeling that she was absolutely [00:02:00] floundering and how the seeds for her work and her extraordinary book were plant.

[00:02:04] Ross: You'll also hear Gabriella's views on the key organizational and leadership themes that have emerged over the course of the pandemic. And of course, her song Choice

[00:02:13] Ross: people. Supers an award-winning podcast where we share evidence-based behavioral science in a way that's practical, accessible, and fun to help you glow to work a bit more often. Let's just scoot over to the news desk. Reviews are in for part two of my chat with Andrea Watts. I had another email at people soup dot pod gmail.com from a listener who said it's heartening to hear about the real process behind writing a book.

[00:02:54] Ross: It was very human and inspiring. I love the way Andrea talks about her collage coaching technique, fascinat. Well, thanks so much for listening and sending me that email. And thanks to everyone who listened, rated and reviewed, perhaps talked about it with a friend, recommended the podcast because with your help, We can reach more people with stuff that could be useful. But for now, get aru on and have a listen to part one of my chat with Gabriella Braun.

[00:03:27] Ross: Gabriella Braun, welcome to People Soup.

[00:03:31] Gabriella: Thank you very much. Thank you for inviting me.

[00:03:34] Ross: Oh, I'm absolutely delighted you're here. Now, as I've mentioned, Gabriella, I have this hotshot research department who don't always get everything right, but they have a bit of a delve around and find out some information about you. So I'd like to begin just by sharing what they found out and hopefully they've got this reasonably, correct.

[00:03:57] Ross: So it says here, Gabriella Braun is the [00:04:00] director of working well, a specialist consultancy firm using psychoanalytic and systemic thinking to help leaders and teams understand the hidden truths of their behavior at work. Gabriella has consulted the hundreds of clients, including the British Library, RADA, Tate Tavistock, and Portman NHS Trust, university of Cambridge, queen Mary, university of London.

[00:04:23] Ross: Gabriella holds a master's degree in consulting to organizations, psychoanalytic approaches from the Tavistock Clinic, and was a principal consultant in the Tavistock consultancy service. And not only all of that, but Gabriella is also an author. Of an amazing book called All That We Are Uncovering The Hidden Truths Behind Our Behavior at Work.

[00:04:47] Ross: And I'm not gonna lie, Gabriella, I need to just get this out there. I am a super fan boy of this book and we'll talk more about it a bit later,

[00:04:55] Gabriella: Thank you. That's so lovely to hear. Thank you very much. Very good research department.

[00:05:00] Ross: Oh, good, good. That's good to hear. Now this isn't actually from them. Well it kind of is. We've read your book and discussed it and we all said, blimey, we'd watched this show. So we've had, we've had Marie Kondo helping us tidy up. And she's had absolutely no impact on my sock drawer. All my life. But how about a show, Gabriella, where you bring to life some of the stories in your book, or it's some sort of fly in the wall documentary and then it cuts to you just giving your reflections and insights. I think it would be such a hot potato for Netflix.

[00:05:42] Ross: I mean, if I had a hotline to Netflix, I'd get them online 10 right now, but I don't, but I just wondered, what do you think? Would you be up for some sort of,

[00:05:52] Gabriella: I would so be up for that. If I had a hotline to Netflix, I'd also be on it right now, , but I don't.[00:06:00]

[00:06:00] Ross: well, we never know who's listening. Gabriella, stranger Things have happened. So, hello. Um, Netflix, if you are listening, get in Touch or Gabriella's. Contact details will be in the show notes for this episode. So, Please do keep us posted if it does take off, because my goodness, I think so many of the conversations we have as adults are about the workplace

[00:06:22] Gabriella: Yes.

[00:06:23] Ross: who wouldn't be interested.

[00:06:25] Gabriella: I agree. I think it would be really, I, I could imagine it. I think it could be very engaging.

[00:06:32] Ross: oh, actually, I've just seen another note. I don't think I covered this bit. If I may just add another note from my department.

[00:06:39] Ross: It says, you moved from Israel to Bristol at 15 months and your childhood included time spent in Harlow, in Ess. Dundee, Letchworth, Birmingham, and then Lancaster. So that's just another little geographical

[00:06:56] Ross: insight Lancaster was university, but yes, we moved a lot. We moved around a lot when I was a child.

[00:07:02] Ross: So I wonder if you wouldn't mind, Gabriella, just building on the insights from my research department. So tell us a bit more about you and your career, maybe some of the pivotal moments in your career to date that's, that's helped you get where you are.

[00:07:16] Child of Immigrants

[00:07:16] Gabriella: Okay. Thank you very much. That's a lovely introduction. Actually. I'm gonna start with where you just went, which was the geography. It was really writing this book that I really realized how much I am the child of immigrants. I am an immigrant, but I was a baby. Well, 15 months old as you say. I didn't really realize how much my parents being foreigners in this country really had impacted me and how much a product I am of that.

[00:07:55] Gabriella: So you introducing that made me think, actually that's where [00:08:00] I'll start because I think that is quite a large part of of how come I ended up writing this book and how come I do the work that I do. Because in a way, as the child of immigrants and as you picked up the geography moving around so much. . I grew very used to being on the boundary of places.

[00:08:28] Gabriella: You know, I constantly had to adapt. I kept going to different schools. Other people knew each other well, and I had to find my way in. Uh, it wasn't easy. And one of the things I did as a child actually was, and it wasn't deliberate, but I picked up accents and I think it was my childish way of trying to fit in.

[00:08:49] Gabriella: So I had a, a strong Dian accent at one point. ? Yes,

[00:08:55] Ross: Wow, that's that's pretty,

[00:08:56] Ross: phenomenal.

[00:08:57] Ross: I did my, my first degree in, in Dundee and that's, that's quite an accent.

[00:09:02] Ross: Can you still do it now?

[00:09:04] Gabriella: no, I couldn't begin to do it now. I did get quite a rommy accent as well, and people quite often ask me where I'm from and I think it's that there's probably vague twangs of all these different accents have remained somewhere. So that's part of who I am.

[00:09:22] Gabriella: And I think part of standing slightly at, at the boundary of places means that I always had an eye looking in rather than just being in the center where you don't necessarily look in in the same way.

[00:09:37] Gabriella: So my career background is, I, I have an education and training background, and I absolutely loved parts of that.

[00:09:48] Became a more senior leader

[00:09:48] Gabriella: I worked in further education, which I loved. I loved being a team member. I loved being a manager. .

[00:09:54] No experience of leadership

[00:09:54] Gabriella: But then I progressed and got a job in different organization [00:10:00] and I became a more senior leader. And the organization at the time was restructuring, relocating. It did everything in one fell swoop. It actually was a lesson in how not to do these things.

[00:10:15] I really floundered

[00:10:15] Gabriella: It was awful. And I really floundered. I had no experience of leadership in those days. There was no coaching, no no training. Actually, I read books that didn't begin to speak to my experience. They all kind of said, you know, five easy tips or, well, I didn't find anything easy and five was no way gonna cut it for me,

[00:10:40] Gabriella: And they didn't go. The really difficult people stuff. I could learn how you did some of the, I dunno, you know, the financial stuff. I'm not good at that at all, but you can learn some of that. It was the people stuff that I found incredibly difficult and the organization was very stressed because of relocating and restructuring. But I found that the dynamics became incomprehensible to me. All I knew was that I was really miserable, but I couldn't really understand what was going on. And I think that really set the seeds for why decades later. I ended up writing this book and it set the seeds for why, uh, fair.

[00:11:23] Gabriella: Few years later I started into this line of work. It was quite a long time later. I think that set the seed because I wanted to really understand what happens in organizations. I, I did become a freelance trainer and I enjoyed it very, very much. But eventually I felt it, it was too superficial.

[00:11:45] Gabriella: I wasn't going deep enough. So that's where all that seed setting came to be. And I did two things that were really pivotable. one was I started the masters at the Taper stock, and [00:12:00] that kind of gave me permission because the toughest Stock Masters encouraged you, highly recommended that you were in either psychoanalysis or psychoanalytic psychotherapy. So it sort of allowed me to go to an analyst saying, well, it's been recommended by the Tavistock. Um, And at that first assessment session, my analyst, the guy who became my analyst, said, is that the only reason you are here? And I said, no. And that was it. We all the pretense of, well, I'm here because the tab stopped.

[00:12:34] Gabriella: Want me to be here? Got dropped at that moment. And actually my family history is complicated, very complicated. And it left its mark. Inevitably, my mother at the age of 78 was diagnosed as bipolar. It's not easy. so all of that had left being immigrants. They'd were refugees from war.

[00:12:59] THINKING ABOUT ORGANISATIONAL LIFE

[00:12:59] Gabriella: You know, all sorts of things had happened in my parents' childhood, so I needed to sort things out.

[00:13:06] Gabriella: There was a lot that needed to be dealt with. And going into psychoanalysis was, Absolutely pivotal for me, the masters at the Tavi, it didn't have the depth of impact that the analysis had, but it was also extremely pivotal because it introduced me to a whole other way of thinking about organizational life.

[00:13:29] Gabriella: And once I'd got it, it, it never leaves you. So I, then at some point I became a principal consultant at the Tavistock, and then I ended up going off on my own and doing my own thing. And it, it's developed since then.

[00:13:44] Ross: I, I see you and it, and it sings from the book. this, this curiosity from you. it strikes me that I'm not sure whether this is right, but I'll, I'll give it a go that you are not content with just, oh, that's happened. You want to [00:14:00] dig deeper and explore why and get to some sort of rationale, both in your own life.

[00:14:05] Ross: But the way you, the way you consult and the way you support organizations and teams is that kind of reasonably fair?

[00:14:13] Gabriella: That's very fair. you're right. I'm not prepared to just think, oh, that happened. I, I do want to try and understand it. I don't always understand it. This one chapter in the book where I and the team in the end agree that will never quite understand what happened to them, but we got them out of it.

[00:14:33] Gabriella: They were in a terrible place. We understood enough to get them out of it, but we didn't understand. I came to the conclusion with that one and I talked about it with them that. , maybe we'd never completely understand it and maybe we understood as enough, but I do make huge efforts to understand and also help clients understand.

[00:14:55] Gabriella: It's not that I keep that all to myself.

[00:14:58] Ross: Hmm. So it's not, it's not just that understanding it. It's understanding and

[00:15:03] Gabriella: Mm,

[00:15:03] Ross: how can, how can I support you in. in moving forward from this,

[00:15:08] Gabriella: Yes.

[00:15:09] Ross: cuz I, I'm, continually fascinated and surprised by the workplace the, the things that go on and the pickles that people get into

[00:15:18] Gabriella: Mm,

[00:15:19] Ross: and the, the fears that people have

[00:15:22] Gabriella: yes.

[00:15:23] Ross: are, are you seeing any particular trends? I'm just, I'm just curious cuz I noticed different requests coming to me over the, course of the pandemic.

[00:15:34] Ross: I noticed that, that organizations were coming to me. I mean, my focus is on psychological wellbeing in the workplace and I notice leaders feeling this weight of responsibility for their people

[00:15:47] Gabriella: Yes,

[00:15:47] Ross: and also saying to me, , my people are anxious. Can you make it go away?

[00:15:53] Gabriella: yes.

[00:15:54] Ross: And my response was always, no, I can't make it go away.

[00:15:57] Ross: But we can discuss skills that [00:16:00] might help them relate to what they're experiencing differently and understand it more. But I just wondered if there are any themes that are really uppermost in your mind.

[00:16:09] Workplace Themes

[00:16:09] Gabriella: Um, there, there definitely are themes. I mean, what I was noticing before and that led me to the book as well was just how much distress and damage was going on in the workplace and how unwell a lot of organizations were and how distressed a lot of people at work were. And the, you know, the mental health or mental illness statistics at work were and are grim.

[00:16:38] Gabriella: It is not good. And, and as you said, so much can go on in the workplace. We spent huge amounts of our lives in the workplace, so it really matters. And that, that was a huge motivation for me with the book. And then I actually got my contract with my publisher on the 7th of February. Well, we agreed the deal on the 7th of February, 2020 cuz we had no idea what was about to hit.

[00:17:06] Gabriella: No idea. Um, we agreed the deal on the basis of a very thorough proposal and three outline chapters. And I had a year to write the book. So I basically wrote it during this incredible moment in our history under lockdown. A lot of the time. Most of the time, writing and writing and writing.

[00:17:27] Leaders became more humane

[00:17:27] Gabriella: And like you, well, some of the things I noticed, I, I was desperate to see the workplace become more humane. And what I did notice was leaders. really becoming more humane, actually under covid, because one, as you were saying, they were really worried about their employees. two, the anxiety was rocketing and couldn't be ignored.

[00:17:53] Gabriella: And three, although of course we weren't all in the same boat in Covid, we [00:18:00] were in that, uh, and not by a long stretch of imagination were we in the same boat, but the thing that we did have in common was this existential terrible fear that most of us had an experience. We saw huge numbers of people dying.

[00:18:17] Gabriella: We were frightened for our lives. We were frightened for other people's lives. It was very traumatic and shocking that we did have in common, and of course, leaders. knew their own anxiety as well as their staff's anxiety. And so I think the thing about being human suddenly came to the forefront. you couldn't ignore it during covid, could you?

[00:18:43] Leaders prioritized the care of their staff

[00:18:43] Gabriella: and I think a lot of leaders suddenly put that at the forefront and they put huge energy into prioritizing the care of their staff. Not all leaders, of course, but a lot of leaders. So that I really noticed, and I thought there was a lot of hope in that, although it was a terrible, terrible time. Of course it hasn't gone away, the pandemic, but it's not like it was. So I did think there was hope, and I did then right after the very worst of it. I had a few leaders saying to me that they had learned from that and they didn't want to go back to how they were before. They actually wanted to be closer to their staff. They learned that actually showing more of their own vulnerability was really a helpful thing.

[00:19:35] Gabriella: They weren't showing it inappropriately, but showing vulnerability appropriately and uncertainty appropriately was very helpful. As of course, they had to during Covid, cuz nobody, you know, nobody could be certain of everything. There was massive vulnerability and massive uncertainty. So all of that I felt, was hopeful.

[00:19:56] Gabriella: I felt the way that we, again, not everybody by [00:20:00] any means, but the, the huge transformation of the workplace. In thinking we don't all have to be in one geographical

[00:20:08] The huge transformation of the workplace

[00:20:08] Gabriella: place. A leader and a boss doesn't have to manage by closely watching every movement of everybody actually staff show that they can be trusted.

[00:20:21] Gabriella: Of course, most people want to do a good job you don't have to hover over them and threaten them to make them do a good job. They'll work from home and they'll do the best they can, and there may be reasons why they're not that productive, but it's not because you can't trust them. Okay? There may be a very small minority, but generally I think that really showed employers something that they hadn't realized before, how much they could trust their staff and how much geography didn't matter in that.

[00:20:52] Gabriella: It does matter in some ways. It matters hugely in the sense of belonging. Camaraderie, those kind of conversations that can't be agendered but you meet every water cooling machine and you might have a, a moment that sparks lots of ideas. That's really important. You can't make that happen every Tuesday at nine o'clock, you know?

[00:21:13] Gabriella: But at the same time, there are other types of work that you don't need to be in the office for. that of course was a massive theme. I think now what I'm seeing is, uh, it's a very mixed bag now.

[00:21:25] Productivity may go down for all sorts of reasons

[00:21:25] Gabriella: I think some leaders are still really trying to hold onto the positives that came from that. Others are completely desperate because of the financial crisis. Recess. cost of living crisis. So they're desperate about that. I think others are making rather knee jerk reactions about working from home and thinking, you know, they might see productivity go down and that's it.

[00:21:50] Gabriella: It doesn't work. Got to get them all back in the office. And I think it's much more complicated than that. I think productivity may go down for sorts of [00:22:00] reasons. Like, you know, when somebody works from home and they're autonomous, it doesn't mean they don't need support. And productivity will go down if managers haven't learned how to support people at a distance. But I think there may be a tendency now to blame the workers for that rather than thinking, actually, we've still got a lot to learn about how to really do this, so those are some of the themes that I'm seeing at the moment.

[00:22:26] Ross: Lovely, lovely. Thank you. Because I think before the pandemic as leaders, as team members, we had strategies that worked when we, when we went to the office, how we. Hopefully disconnected from work and got time outside of work to recharge how we interact with each other. And they were all just

[00:22:45] Gabriella: Yeah. Blown apart . Yes.

[00:22:48] Ross: apart by the pandemic and people were still trying to use those same strategies or techniques during the pandemic finding.

[00:22:55] Ross: They're not working, getting frustrated, perhaps beginning to shift. Maybe as you say, It might feel really uncomfortable for some leaders not to be able to look around a room and see if everyone's head down, tapping away on a keyboard that gives them some sort of reassurance that people are working. And to have that at a distance where it is invisible to you can be really uncomfortable for some people, which can mean that as the, I kind of think we're going into the next phase of the, the pandemic, the sort of the, the long. Recovery and coming out the other side, and I think there's different responses to that.

[00:23:30] Gabriella: I think so too, and I think we've yet to see all the psychological impact. You know, it's still coming out, the kind of trauma that we've been through and, and we are not, I mean, in one way it's understandable as a society we're kind of treating it like being there, done that, shut up about it. But the shut up about it means that we are not digesting it. No. Somebody said to me the other day, very interestingly, a client said to me after a wall, there's a memorial. [00:24:00] We've got the wall in London, haven't we?

[00:24:03] Ross: Hmm.

[00:24:03] Gabriella: which is a memorial and that's wonderful, but we haven't set up any rituals to memorialize what we've been through. And maybe it's too soon, but it, it is interesting that that doesn't seem to be thought about

[00:24:16] Gabriella: really.

[00:24:17] Ross: There's, there's an incredible sort of, I'm not sure what the word is, compunction, just to Right, move on. Let's crack on with those business objectives.

[00:24:25] Gabriella: Exactly. And I think all the things, because we're in the world's in a pretty terrible place, so all the things that are going on, climate catastrophe war in Europe and all the ramifications of that, all the financial ramifications, the energy ramifications, there's so much anxiety anyway. I think in a way people are just desperate to at least put covid behind them.

[00:24:49] Gabriella: And then, you know, the, I think. , there's all sorts of things in the UK that still aren't properly owned up to like the ramifications of Brexit. So some of that goes under cover of Covid. Oh. You know, there may not be enough skilled staff around, it's cuz of Covid. Well actually a lot of that's cuz of Brexit.

[00:25:10] Ross: Oh, Gabriella, this is, this is a bit of a hobby horse of mine, but, but I will not go into detail, but the complexities that Brexit has caused,

[00:25:20] Ross: if a little old, me moving to Spain with my Spanish husband and gaining residency here is something that should be automatic,

[00:25:28] Gabriella: yeah,

[00:25:29] Ross: not automatic. So many inquiries and documents required, and it breaks my heart.

[00:25:37] Gabriella: I find it heartbreaking. I find it. such a destructive, destructive act on this country's part, you know, such a self-harming act. I find it really, really heartbreaking. I did something, I've become a German citizen and have just got a German passport. I wouldn't have thought [00:26:00] of that without Brexit.

[00:26:01] Ross: Hmm. And, and perhaps we wouldn't have thought about moving without, without Brexit. And I get Spanish. People still ask him, you're like, why did he do this?

[00:26:12] Ross: Like, like, like it's, it wasn't me but, um, it's, oh, again, the ramifications of that will run and run and.

[00:26:24] Gabriella: And I think one of the fascinating things for me about the workplace is that the workplace absorbs it all. Everything that's going on in society gets brought into the workplace, and the workplace is like a microcosm of the society. All those issues are there.

[00:26:42] Ross: This, this, this might be a, a loaded question, but do you ever look at our government and think, goodness me, would you like to, get my views or would you like to bring me in to, to, to consult? Or maybe it's something you just don't want to go near. I don't know,

[00:27:01] Gabriella: I, you are not the first one to ask me that. I think I would not want to go. I mean, it would be fascinating, but only from a kind of research point of view, not from a actually trying to do anything about it point of view. I think it would be rather horrible and grim.

[00:27:19] Ross: Yeah. to be honest, I wouldn't wish that trip on

[00:27:22] Gabriella: No,

[00:27:22] Ross: I don't think, I think it's, uh, the only words I can think of are a poisoned chalice.

[00:27:26] Gabriella: Yeah, I think it really would be, but that's maybe not very, brave or constructive on my part anyway. I don't think anyone's about to ask me , so I don't have to

[00:27:38] Ross: I, I think, I think we can choose where we, exercise our bravery and our courage.

[00:27:43] Gabriella: Thank you.

[00:27:43] Gabriella: I think it would feel completely hopeless, to be honest as well. I can't imagine having any. Glimmer of success either, so,

[00:27:52] Ross: Hmm.

[00:27:53] Ross: let me, if I may just change tack slightly cuz I'm really, curious about your work and your consulting work and it's a really [00:28:00] practical thing, but when you go and work with a team and you come away, do you build kind of reflection and thinking time? Is that part of your discipline into your calendar or does it just happen as you're going about other business?

[00:28:14] Gabriella: Oh, that's an interesting question. I don't specifically like, you know, put in my diary reflection time, but what I do do will be careful not to have, I don't do back to back things. So I do allow space and I am careful with how much I put in a week. So I suppose I am building in reflection time, although I'm not I'm not literally marking it in the diary.

[00:28:42] Ross: so it doesn't get to 2:00 PM on a Monday, and you think, oh, look, it's reflection time,

[00:28:47] Gabriella: no, no, no.

[00:28:48] Ross: but you're looking at the landscape of your, your week and your month to ensure that it's

[00:28:53] Ross: not overloaded.

[00:28:54] Gabriella: Yes.

[00:28:55] Gabriella: And if I'm doing one piece of work, I might, like last week I was interviewing people from the same organization, the same team, and I did have them close together, but it's all one piece of work. And that was it. I didn't do anything else after them, so I had time to reflect on.

[00:29:13] Ross: Hmm. Because I find for me, I'm working with an organization at the minute, and I'm working with several of the leadership team, and for me, it just takes time for stuff to settle.

[00:29:22] Gabriella: Yes.

[00:29:23] Ross: I, I take notes immediately during, but then immediately after I'll, embellish and add to those notes about what's going on, and then I'll, I don't know what it is, but I just need time to let it sort of percolate.

[00:29:34] Gabriella: I agree. And I think that's maybe also why I wouldn't put it as a diary thing because it's percolating at all different times, isn't it? Like in the shower or going for a walk or you know, when you're on the tube, whatever. It's percolating

[00:29:49] Ross: yeah.

[00:29:50] Gabriella: Some of it still, I found when I was writing the book, I found, work with organizations I'd done years ago I discovered more about that work in [00:30:00] writing the book. So it was still percolating. All the percolation came back.

[00:30:03] Ross: Wow. Isn't that interesting that things from a while ago can still, you can look at with that new perspective

[00:30:11] Gabriella: exactly.

[00:30:12] Ross: and you talked about being the outsider. Has someone looking in, has that helped you be comfortable with that role of outsider and then integrating yourself? Has that, has that made it

[00:30:24] Ross: easier or helped you do that?

[00:30:26] Gabriella: I

[00:30:26] Gabriella: hadn't thought of that until, I don't think I'd thought of that until writing the book, but I realized that I think it helped prepare me to be a consultant, because as a consultant, you go into a lot of different organizations. You have to quickly. navigate the territory of that organization, the culture of that organization, their way of being, even their language.

[00:30:50] Gabriella: but you don't, you don't join it because you are a consultant, but you have to understand enough to work with them. And I think moving around so much as a child looking in quite a lot, being an outsider in that way, being foreign, I think that did really help me actually to become a consultant.

[00:31:10] Ross: Mm. Isn't it interesting how different threads in our life and our experience can give us signals about where we might end up, I guess.

[00:31:21] Gabriella: Yes. Although I would never have, I didn't know it and I, you know, didn't map it out.

[00:31:27] Ross: No, and I think, I think it's really interesting, a lot of my guests, their careers have not been linear.

[00:31:32] Gabriella: Hmm.

[00:31:33] Ross: They've experienced different things they've tried and then they've gone in a different direction or they've adjusted their trajectory. And I think it's just super interesting cuz I think as young people we can often be saying, well, what do you want to be

[00:31:46] Gabriella: I know.

[00:31:47] Ross: to the children?

[00:31:47] Ross: We can say, what do you want to be? And kind of making these momentous decisions and then perhaps feeling a little bit trapped

[00:31:53] Gabriella: Yes,

[00:31:54] Ross: and, and not, not fostering that sense of kind of curiosity and exploration.[00:32:00]

[00:32:00] Gabriella: yes. and maybe nowadays a better question would be, where do you think you want to start

[00:32:06] Gabriella: you're not likely to have a linear career anymore? So where might you, what area might you want to gravitate towards? Where might you start?

[00:32:15] Ross: I, I think you're onto something because I think that could change the workplace expectation and experience for a lot of people,

[00:32:22] Gabriella: Yeah.

[00:32:23] Ross: people of my generation, you've kind of got a job in the civil service and it was like, yes,

[00:32:28] Gabriella: Yeah,

[00:32:28] Ross: you are set for life. You've got this golden pension,

[00:32:31] Gabriella: I was gonna say great pension.

[00:32:34] Ross: you've got this variety.

[00:32:35] Ross: and I spent 20 odd years in the civil service, then walked away from it because I was just, there was something, there was an itch to be scratched and it wasn't working for me. No. Gabriella, I'm keen to get on and really talk a bit more about your book, but before I do, so I've got one more question. If

[00:32:55] Gabriella: Mm-hmm.

[00:32:56] Ross: Which is something I ask all my guests, and it's if you had a, a song that would announce your arrival in a room, whether it's a virtual room or a real room, that would just play for the next, doesn't have to be forever, but the next few weeks, what might that song be for you that would announce Gabriella has entered the room?

[00:33:15] Gabriella: That is such a lovely question. My answer's going to seem slightly bizarre. My answer is what's Love got to do with it by Tina Turner?

[00:33:25] Ross: Oh, it's a belter.

[00:33:26] Gabriella: It's a belter that is exactly the right term. It's a belt, so I love it because it's a belt and it would announce me with greater plum I feel in the room. It wouldn't be a quiet entrance with that song, would it?

[00:33:41] Gabriella: That's quite an entrance.

[00:33:43] Ross: No, I think, I think I'd sit up and take notice.

[00:33:46] Gabriella: And I like the idea of people sitting up and taking notice at the moment, not forever, but at the moment when I've got my book going into paperback, I'd like them to sit up and take notice. But the other more serious [00:34:00] reason for that choice is that actually what I talk about a lot in the book is that human beings are not coherent.

[00:34:08] Gabriella: all of us have a constructive side and a destructive side, and our capacity for love is our constructive side. And I think that we are constantly tussling between these parts of ourselves and the workplace has a constant tussle. and actually leaders aren't taught anything about this, but I think a lot of a leader's role actually is to keep trying to pull their organization on the side of love, on the constructive side.

[00:34:43] Gabriella: So actually I think love has got a hell of a lot to do with it.

[00:34:46] Ross: That's it, pup's part one of my chat with Gabriella in the bag. Thanks so much to Gabriella For being a reflective, open, warm, and fun guest.

[00:35:00] Ross: Next time we'll dive further into the book. I hope you enjoyed this conversation as much as I did, and let us know what you think on the socials or drop me an email. Remember the paperback version of the book landed on the same day as this episode the 2nd of February, 2023, Special thanks. Go to Tabitha, PA PR, who initiated and nurtured the connection between me and Gabriella.

[00:35:22] Ross: If you like this episode of the podcast, please, could you do three things? Number one, share it with one other person. Number two, subscribe to the podcast and give us a five star review. Whatever platform you're on, and particularly if you're on Apple Podcasts, the Apple charts are really important in the podcast industry.

[00:35:41] Ross: And number three, share the heck out of it on the socials. This will all help us reach more people with stuff that could be. I'd love to hear from you and you can get in touch at people soup dot pod gmail.com. On Twitter, we are at People Soup Pod on Instagram at People dot Soup.

[00:35:58] Ross: And on Facebook we [00:36:00] are at People Soup Pod. thanks to Andy Klan for his Spoon Magic. And Alex Engelberg for his vocal. Most of all, dear listener, thanks to you. Look after yourselves. Peace supers and bye for now.

[00:36:11] Ross: a little timeout. Gabriella, how's it going for you?

[00:36:16] Gabriella: you've got me really relaxed. I'm just really enjoying our conversation. It does feel. . It's a shame there's not a coffee there, but you know, it does feel exactly like that.

[00:36:27] Ross: Oh, super,

[00:36:28] Gabriella: How about you? Is it okay from your side?

[00:36:30] Ross: Oh, it's, it's, it's like, it's, divine is the word that comes

[00:36:35] Gabriella: Oh my God,