1 00:00:00,330 --> 00:00:02,410 (Transcribed by TurboScribe. Go Unlimited to remove this message.) Picture walking into a room full of engineers 2 00:00:02,410 --> 00:00:03,470 on your first day. 3 00:00:04,650 --> 00:00:07,510 Nobody knows what you do, nobody's worked with 4 00:00:07,510 --> 00:00:09,970 someone like you before, and the first thing 5 00:00:09,970 --> 00:00:12,170 someone asks you to do is pick a 6 00:00:12,170 --> 00:00:12,370 colour. 7 00:00:12,770 --> 00:00:15,470 I'm just here to pick the colour of 8 00:00:15,470 --> 00:00:17,230 whatever material you're trying to use on the 9 00:00:17,230 --> 00:00:17,490 prototype. 10 00:00:17,970 --> 00:00:19,650 In this episode I sit down with Dan 11 00:00:19,650 --> 00:00:22,890 Salisbury, someone who's spent over a decade at 12 00:00:22,890 --> 00:00:25,730 some of the most respected design consultancies in 13 00:00:25,730 --> 00:00:28,150 the country, then walked away from all of 14 00:00:28,150 --> 00:00:30,610 it to become the only industrial designer inside 15 00:00:30,610 --> 00:00:32,930 a startup building robotic lab systems. 16 00:00:33,190 --> 00:00:34,670 Recruit really good people and then trust them 17 00:00:34,670 --> 00:00:35,230 to do their job. 18 00:00:35,330 --> 00:00:37,530 Systems that are currently being used to profile 19 00:00:37,530 --> 00:00:42,110 cancer biopsies, accelerate drug discovery, and compress testing 20 00:00:42,110 --> 00:00:44,430 timelines that used to take weeks down to 21 00:00:44,430 --> 00:00:44,810 days. 22 00:00:45,070 --> 00:00:47,530 There's like 100% intent, like this has 23 00:00:47,530 --> 00:00:50,330 to launch, otherwise we collapse as a business 24 00:00:50,330 --> 00:00:50,890 kind of thing. 25 00:00:51,030 --> 00:00:53,670 That's design that isn't decorative, that's design that's 26 00:00:53,670 --> 00:00:54,290 consequential. 27 00:00:54,970 --> 00:00:56,530 He had to earn his place from day 28 00:00:56,530 --> 00:00:59,230 one, not with a portfolio, not with a 29 00:00:59,230 --> 00:01:01,690 pitch, just by doing the work and waiting 30 00:01:01,690 --> 00:01:02,830 for people to get it. 31 00:01:03,190 --> 00:01:05,310 Most of them didn't, until they did. 32 00:01:05,630 --> 00:01:07,130 Yeah it was like, I can have it, 33 00:01:07,190 --> 00:01:08,410 I can see the impact I can have 34 00:01:08,410 --> 00:01:10,750 here, and I really believe in what the 35 00:01:10,750 --> 00:01:12,270 product has the potential to do. 36 00:01:12,930 --> 00:01:14,730 And before any of that, there's the story 37 00:01:14,730 --> 00:01:16,350 of standing on a stage in front of 38 00:01:16,350 --> 00:01:18,730 one of the most iconic figures in design 39 00:01:18,730 --> 00:01:21,910 history, a project he'd rehearsed hundreds of times. 40 00:01:21,910 --> 00:01:23,530 Did it go the way he planned? 41 00:01:23,970 --> 00:01:24,590 Not quite. 42 00:01:25,150 --> 00:01:26,750 But what came next is something he hasn't 43 00:01:26,750 --> 00:01:27,090 forgotten. 44 00:01:28,090 --> 00:01:31,390 This is a conversation about belief, impact, and 45 00:01:31,390 --> 00:01:33,050 what it actually means to do design that 46 00:01:33,050 --> 00:01:33,430 matters. 47 00:01:34,150 --> 00:01:35,590 This is Y-Design. 48 00:01:40,090 --> 00:01:42,850 Dan Salisbury, welcome to Y-Design. 49 00:01:43,190 --> 00:01:44,330 Great to have you on the show. 50 00:01:45,550 --> 00:01:48,610 So you've spent over a decade working in 51 00:01:48,610 --> 00:01:52,210 consultancy at DCA and then Layer, before making 52 00:01:52,210 --> 00:01:54,270 the move over to, I'm going to get 53 00:01:54,270 --> 00:01:56,230 this wrong, automata or automator? 54 00:01:56,430 --> 00:01:57,670 Yeah, I got it wrong as well when 55 00:01:57,670 --> 00:01:58,150 I first joined. 56 00:01:58,290 --> 00:02:02,590 It's automata, it comes from automaton, some sort 57 00:02:02,590 --> 00:02:03,610 of Latin reference, I think. 58 00:02:04,490 --> 00:02:05,210 Automata, right. 59 00:02:05,270 --> 00:02:07,410 Okay, so I'm probably going to say that, 60 00:02:07,810 --> 00:02:10,310 you know, five different ways throughout this interview, 61 00:02:10,570 --> 00:02:11,990 but please do correct me. 62 00:02:12,150 --> 00:02:14,670 So automata, you spent just over three years 63 00:02:14,670 --> 00:02:15,110 there now. 64 00:02:15,510 --> 00:02:18,250 Before we kind of dive into how you've 65 00:02:18,250 --> 00:02:22,790 built out automata's hardware function from scratch, let's, 66 00:02:22,790 --> 00:02:24,650 you know, go back to a moment where 67 00:02:24,650 --> 00:02:26,130 everything shifted for you. 68 00:02:26,930 --> 00:02:30,370 You know, ten years in consultancy to then 69 00:02:30,370 --> 00:02:30,970 in-house. 70 00:02:33,870 --> 00:02:36,830 Was there a moment where you realized, automata, 71 00:02:36,970 --> 00:02:39,070 that this is going to be different from 72 00:02:39,070 --> 00:02:39,950 consultancy life? 73 00:02:40,550 --> 00:02:42,330 Yeah, I'd always had in the back of 74 00:02:42,330 --> 00:02:44,930 my mind about going in-house at some 75 00:02:44,930 --> 00:02:45,270 point. 76 00:02:46,070 --> 00:02:47,410 I think it kind of just depended on 77 00:02:47,410 --> 00:02:50,670 what it was that the company did, so 78 00:02:50,670 --> 00:02:52,230 it had to be something that I'd be 79 00:02:52,230 --> 00:02:53,810 interested in, that would excite me. 80 00:02:54,250 --> 00:02:56,430 Obviously, being a consultancy, you get exposed a 81 00:02:56,430 --> 00:02:59,090 lot to the ways of working with in 82 00:02:59,090 --> 00:02:59,610 -house companies. 83 00:02:59,950 --> 00:03:01,870 A lot of the clients with having consultancy 84 00:03:01,870 --> 00:03:04,070 will often have their own design teams, but 85 00:03:04,070 --> 00:03:07,130 they would tend to onboard agencies when they 86 00:03:07,130 --> 00:03:08,790 didn't have the bandwidth or they wanted to 87 00:03:08,790 --> 00:03:10,770 explore something about the kind of like red 88 00:03:10,770 --> 00:03:14,410 tape of a bigger in-house company. 89 00:03:15,670 --> 00:03:17,770 But I didn't want to be kind of 90 00:03:17,770 --> 00:03:19,710 like a cog in the machine, you know, 91 00:03:19,750 --> 00:03:20,810 just being part of a design team in 92 00:03:20,810 --> 00:03:22,150 some sort of like mega corporation. 93 00:03:23,610 --> 00:03:25,670 I think it was just timing, really, like 94 00:03:25,670 --> 00:03:29,070 the automata job, I saw it on LinkedIn. 95 00:03:30,550 --> 00:03:32,730 And the remit was, you know, we have 96 00:03:32,730 --> 00:03:36,290 this hardware product, but we don't have any 97 00:03:36,290 --> 00:03:37,450 industrial design. 98 00:03:38,370 --> 00:03:41,070 So the early remit was to basically come 99 00:03:41,070 --> 00:03:44,010 in, define a design language, define design principles, 100 00:03:44,490 --> 00:03:47,670 and then implement that in the product and 101 00:03:47,670 --> 00:03:48,850 get that product rolled out. 102 00:03:49,550 --> 00:03:51,070 And it was very rapid, like automata was 103 00:03:51,070 --> 00:03:51,490 a startup. 104 00:03:51,790 --> 00:03:53,630 So I think like the opportunity to fit 105 00:03:53,630 --> 00:03:55,390 impact was what attracted me. 106 00:03:55,810 --> 00:03:58,050 So yeah, I was like about three years 107 00:03:58,050 --> 00:03:59,910 into my time at Layer, and the job 108 00:03:59,910 --> 00:04:03,710 came up, saw the description, reasonably, you know, 109 00:04:03,730 --> 00:04:04,710 excited by it. 110 00:04:05,630 --> 00:04:07,130 So I just went for it. 111 00:04:07,370 --> 00:04:10,170 Because generally, I've always kind of followed my 112 00:04:10,170 --> 00:04:13,390 gut, what feels right, and what excites me. 113 00:04:13,570 --> 00:04:14,350 And it did. 114 00:04:14,530 --> 00:04:16,190 But there was other opportunities I was exploring 115 00:04:16,190 --> 00:04:18,670 there at the time that didn't quite feel 116 00:04:18,670 --> 00:04:19,010 right. 117 00:04:19,170 --> 00:04:19,890 So this one did. 118 00:04:20,350 --> 00:04:22,570 So yeah, a long way around of saying 119 00:04:22,570 --> 00:04:24,950 that's kind of, it just excited me when 120 00:04:24,950 --> 00:04:26,050 I saw the job description, really. 121 00:04:26,850 --> 00:04:28,510 We'll dive into that a little bit later, 122 00:04:28,510 --> 00:04:30,970 because I have a terrible habit of going 123 00:04:30,970 --> 00:04:33,110 completely off script after the first question. 124 00:04:33,270 --> 00:04:34,910 So we'll dive into that. 125 00:04:35,030 --> 00:04:37,570 But what did it feel like, you know, 126 00:04:37,590 --> 00:04:40,530 joining automata and to be the only designer 127 00:04:40,530 --> 00:04:43,330 in a deep tech lab surrounded by engineers 128 00:04:43,330 --> 00:04:44,610 and roboticists? 129 00:04:45,570 --> 00:04:48,230 Yeah, it was a bit, particularly from Layer, 130 00:04:48,310 --> 00:04:50,370 where you're going from somewhere which the entire 131 00:04:50,370 --> 00:04:52,490 team pretty much is industrial designers. 132 00:04:54,210 --> 00:04:56,130 I was then put into an environment where 133 00:04:56,130 --> 00:04:57,650 at the time when I joined, there was 134 00:04:57,650 --> 00:05:00,490 maybe about 30 people in the hardware team, 135 00:05:00,590 --> 00:05:02,370 kind of a mix of mechanical engineers, electronics, 136 00:05:02,790 --> 00:05:03,690 like software people. 137 00:05:04,350 --> 00:05:06,470 And they were all put in place to 138 00:05:06,470 --> 00:05:08,510 develop what was automata's products at the time, 139 00:05:08,510 --> 00:05:09,430 which is a robot arm. 140 00:05:09,570 --> 00:05:11,470 So it was all very much like, get 141 00:05:11,470 --> 00:05:15,890 this very complex, highly engineered thing into production. 142 00:05:16,670 --> 00:05:19,150 And nobody had ever worked with an industrial 143 00:05:19,150 --> 00:05:19,730 designer before. 144 00:05:20,010 --> 00:05:21,110 So there was a bit of a task 145 00:05:21,110 --> 00:05:24,070 in terms of people understanding what I did. 146 00:05:24,390 --> 00:05:25,710 I remember being asked in my first week 147 00:05:25,710 --> 00:05:26,930 to pick a color for something. 148 00:05:27,170 --> 00:05:28,730 I was like, I'm not just here to 149 00:05:28,730 --> 00:05:31,190 pick, you know, pick the color of whatever 150 00:05:31,190 --> 00:05:32,630 material you're trying to use on the prototype. 151 00:05:34,210 --> 00:05:36,270 So I feel like the bigger challenge really 152 00:05:36,270 --> 00:05:39,610 is like, trying to work and collaborate with 153 00:05:39,610 --> 00:05:42,030 people when they don't really understand what you've 154 00:05:42,030 --> 00:05:42,890 been born to do. 155 00:05:43,410 --> 00:05:44,870 I think really the only way you can 156 00:05:44,870 --> 00:05:47,310 explain it, you can describe it, you can 157 00:05:47,310 --> 00:05:49,010 run through your past experience, but the only 158 00:05:49,010 --> 00:05:51,010 real way is to actually just demonstrate it. 159 00:05:51,590 --> 00:05:55,030 So now three years in, like the engineers 160 00:05:55,030 --> 00:05:56,570 who are still here from when I first 161 00:05:56,570 --> 00:05:59,450 joined, you know, they get it now because 162 00:05:59,450 --> 00:06:02,290 they've seen the impact from like a prototype, 163 00:06:02,530 --> 00:06:04,710 which was very, you know, functional. 164 00:06:05,170 --> 00:06:06,630 Through to now, like we're on the second 165 00:06:06,630 --> 00:06:08,810 generation of what that's become. 166 00:06:09,070 --> 00:06:10,870 So I think now they definitely see like 167 00:06:10,870 --> 00:06:11,590 results of it. 168 00:06:11,770 --> 00:06:12,970 But yeah, it's just kind of more like 169 00:06:12,970 --> 00:06:14,470 demonstrate by doing. 170 00:06:14,490 --> 00:06:17,110 You can't really explain industrial design. 171 00:06:17,390 --> 00:06:18,450 It's hard to explain it. 172 00:06:18,510 --> 00:06:20,050 People don't quite get it. 173 00:06:21,730 --> 00:06:26,570 Yeah, it's coming from a consultancy background, especially 174 00:06:26,570 --> 00:06:28,890 layer where you're surrounded by design. 175 00:06:29,010 --> 00:06:30,470 You know, there's an assumption that people know 176 00:06:30,470 --> 00:06:33,550 what it is by osmosis, but yeah, surrounded 177 00:06:33,550 --> 00:06:37,090 by electronics and kind of engineers. 178 00:06:38,130 --> 00:06:40,310 But some probably don't see the point, you 179 00:06:40,310 --> 00:06:42,410 know, a lot of the time because, you 180 00:06:42,410 --> 00:06:44,650 know, they're the stuff that's making the magic 181 00:06:44,650 --> 00:06:45,110 happen. 182 00:06:45,630 --> 00:06:49,710 But was that hard, you know, those early 183 00:06:49,710 --> 00:06:51,390 days of kind of justifying your position? 184 00:06:52,310 --> 00:06:53,930 I think what made it easier was the 185 00:06:53,930 --> 00:06:54,990 design team. 186 00:06:55,830 --> 00:06:59,070 You know, like my boss who brought me 187 00:06:59,070 --> 00:07:02,130 in, who was the head of design, she's 188 00:07:02,130 --> 00:07:05,610 from a digital background, but she was great 189 00:07:05,610 --> 00:07:08,710 in terms of like, just bringing me in 190 00:07:08,710 --> 00:07:10,390 and trusting me as an expert in it, 191 00:07:10,990 --> 00:07:12,430 just let me hit the ground running. 192 00:07:12,610 --> 00:07:13,910 And then there was also a few of 193 00:07:13,910 --> 00:07:16,390 the UX designers and visual designer. 194 00:07:16,910 --> 00:07:20,030 And even though they're slightly different discipline, you 195 00:07:20,030 --> 00:07:20,930 know, they get it. 196 00:07:21,170 --> 00:07:23,450 So at least like I had like the 197 00:07:23,450 --> 00:07:25,270 like minded people around me. 198 00:07:25,710 --> 00:07:27,470 So that definitely helped. 199 00:07:28,550 --> 00:07:30,170 But it didn't really bother me in terms 200 00:07:30,170 --> 00:07:34,330 of, I guess, like trying to help people 201 00:07:34,330 --> 00:07:35,530 understand the role. 202 00:07:35,690 --> 00:07:37,170 Because like I said, like, it's a very, 203 00:07:37,230 --> 00:07:38,690 it's a start up, it's very fast paced. 204 00:07:38,890 --> 00:07:40,030 I just did what I do. 205 00:07:40,230 --> 00:07:42,790 And then the results kind of speak for 206 00:07:42,790 --> 00:07:43,290 themselves. 207 00:07:44,290 --> 00:07:45,330 And then people get it. 208 00:07:45,370 --> 00:07:47,250 And also, like, I've kind of, I think 209 00:07:47,250 --> 00:07:49,090 any industrial designers had this battle like their 210 00:07:49,090 --> 00:07:53,470 whole career with even, you know, engineers, or 211 00:07:53,470 --> 00:07:54,950 passing comments of like, I'll just make it 212 00:07:54,950 --> 00:07:56,430 look pretty, like that kind of thing, which 213 00:07:56,430 --> 00:07:58,150 always like gets under the skin of not 214 00:07:58,150 --> 00:07:59,590 just industrial designers, I guess, under the skin 215 00:07:59,590 --> 00:08:02,210 of the digital designers over with as well. 216 00:08:03,390 --> 00:08:04,550 And I've always had that battle. 217 00:08:04,650 --> 00:08:05,770 I had that battle at uni when there 218 00:08:05,770 --> 00:08:07,770 was like a BSc side of the course, 219 00:08:07,910 --> 00:08:11,090 which they would deride the BA side of 220 00:08:11,090 --> 00:08:12,530 the course a lot saying it's just about 221 00:08:12,530 --> 00:08:13,250 pretty pictures. 222 00:08:14,010 --> 00:08:16,950 I even had it, you know, a DCA 223 00:08:16,950 --> 00:08:20,050 from more of the engineering people, they just 224 00:08:20,050 --> 00:08:23,670 saw design as like a beautification exercise rather 225 00:08:23,670 --> 00:08:24,470 than anything else. 226 00:08:25,510 --> 00:08:27,450 But if you get it, you get it. 227 00:08:27,870 --> 00:08:28,590 That's fine. 228 00:08:28,710 --> 00:08:29,810 And it's fine if you don't get it. 229 00:08:29,870 --> 00:08:31,390 As long as you trust people to do 230 00:08:31,390 --> 00:08:31,770 their job. 231 00:08:34,320 --> 00:08:35,960 Slightly contentious one here. 232 00:08:36,059 --> 00:08:37,780 But what do you say to people who 233 00:08:37,780 --> 00:08:41,260 might refer to industrial designers as felt tip 234 00:08:41,260 --> 00:08:41,700 fairies? 235 00:08:41,980 --> 00:08:43,560 Because I've heard that kind of banded around 236 00:08:43,560 --> 00:08:44,920 many times throughout my career. 237 00:08:45,420 --> 00:08:46,400 Yeah, yeah. 238 00:08:46,540 --> 00:08:49,040 I mean, generally, I've always found like, if 239 00:08:49,040 --> 00:08:51,080 someone holds that opinion, you can never really 240 00:08:51,080 --> 00:08:51,760 change it. 241 00:08:52,220 --> 00:08:55,200 And even if you demonstrate otherwise, you still 242 00:08:55,200 --> 00:08:58,080 tend to get those, like sort of snippy 243 00:08:58,080 --> 00:08:59,220 comments from time to time. 244 00:08:59,340 --> 00:09:00,860 The way I always try and explain it, 245 00:09:00,940 --> 00:09:03,780 like when people say, I'm making it look 246 00:09:03,780 --> 00:09:04,080 pretty. 247 00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:05,620 The way I talk about it is it's 248 00:09:05,620 --> 00:09:06,680 giving something an identity. 249 00:09:07,060 --> 00:09:08,820 You know, it's not arbitrary. 250 00:09:09,780 --> 00:09:11,980 But it's not aesthetics for the sake of 251 00:09:11,980 --> 00:09:14,200 aesthetics, which like something, you know, like art 252 00:09:14,200 --> 00:09:16,400 would be, there's a meaning and a purpose 253 00:09:16,400 --> 00:09:17,500 and a rationale behind it. 254 00:09:18,380 --> 00:09:20,720 So, you know, I could talk for hours 255 00:09:20,720 --> 00:09:23,340 on like, the design language and the design 256 00:09:23,340 --> 00:09:26,260 strategy behind like automotive hardware and why everything 257 00:09:26,260 --> 00:09:27,540 has been treated how it is. 258 00:09:27,820 --> 00:09:29,940 And part of that design strategy is also 259 00:09:29,940 --> 00:09:33,140 taking into account, you know, the market we're 260 00:09:33,140 --> 00:09:35,140 in, differentiation from our competitors. 261 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:39,360 Where it's a lot of the space we're 262 00:09:39,360 --> 00:09:40,840 in is like it's B2B and a lot 263 00:09:40,840 --> 00:09:42,940 of B2B products just have no consideration for 264 00:09:42,940 --> 00:09:45,180 like an end user and no consideration for 265 00:09:45,180 --> 00:09:46,200 industrial design. 266 00:09:46,840 --> 00:09:49,860 So those people working in those spaces to 267 00:09:49,860 --> 00:09:51,420 then bring a little bit of joy, bring 268 00:09:51,420 --> 00:09:54,420 a little bit of like, it's like higher 269 00:09:54,420 --> 00:09:57,320 quality execution and thought to things just makes 270 00:09:57,320 --> 00:09:59,640 their lives a bit better, even though they're 271 00:09:59,640 --> 00:10:00,440 not the end customer. 272 00:10:01,680 --> 00:10:04,400 And it also takes into account the manufacturing 273 00:10:04,400 --> 00:10:05,280 process we have to use. 274 00:10:05,480 --> 00:10:07,880 So like I've built a design language here, 275 00:10:07,980 --> 00:10:09,200 which we are low volume. 276 00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:11,880 So we're always driven down routes of like, 277 00:10:11,940 --> 00:10:13,660 you know, a lot of it is just 278 00:10:13,660 --> 00:10:16,540 anything you fabricate, CNC sheet or, you know, 279 00:10:16,560 --> 00:10:20,740 five axis and a bit of, yeah, it's 280 00:10:20,740 --> 00:10:22,540 basically the other, basically the two manufacturing processes 281 00:10:22,540 --> 00:10:23,180 we can use. 282 00:10:23,700 --> 00:10:25,640 And I've let into that for the design 283 00:10:25,640 --> 00:10:26,260 language as well. 284 00:10:27,820 --> 00:10:29,900 So that's kind of like the impact of 285 00:10:29,900 --> 00:10:30,720 what industrial design does. 286 00:10:30,920 --> 00:10:32,460 If it was felt it varies, it would 287 00:10:32,460 --> 00:10:34,060 just be like, oh, here's like a pretty 288 00:10:34,060 --> 00:10:36,020 picture of what a bench could be, but 289 00:10:36,020 --> 00:10:37,860 no thought about how to actually make it 290 00:10:37,860 --> 00:10:40,680 like on cost or deliver a good experience 291 00:10:40,680 --> 00:10:41,740 for the person using it. 292 00:10:42,540 --> 00:10:44,180 That's the added layer, isn't it? 293 00:10:44,240 --> 00:10:47,880 That's the bit that adds impact and value. 294 00:10:48,940 --> 00:10:51,400 It's the kind of the pretty bit, but 295 00:10:51,400 --> 00:10:54,180 then the actual functional, what the why bit 296 00:10:54,180 --> 00:10:55,500 and the how. 297 00:10:55,660 --> 00:10:56,980 So fantastic. 298 00:10:57,420 --> 00:11:00,940 Well, let's ask the podcast title question now. 299 00:11:01,340 --> 00:11:03,120 As I said, we've flipped things around slightly 300 00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:05,100 because we usually lead with this, but let's 301 00:11:05,100 --> 00:11:08,420 dive into your origin story and kind of, 302 00:11:08,500 --> 00:11:09,980 you know, why design? 303 00:11:10,140 --> 00:11:12,080 What led you down this path of industrial 304 00:11:12,080 --> 00:11:13,220 design in the first place? 305 00:11:13,520 --> 00:11:15,320 Yeah, I was thinking about this this morning, 306 00:11:15,900 --> 00:11:17,620 you know, with the podcast coming up and 307 00:11:17,620 --> 00:11:18,780 I was trying to go back. 308 00:11:18,920 --> 00:11:22,400 And I think it started, I remember in 309 00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:25,120 year, probably year eight, like secondary school, I 310 00:11:25,120 --> 00:11:26,280 don't know how old you are, like 12 311 00:11:26,280 --> 00:11:29,080 or 13, did some sort of like questionnaire 312 00:11:29,080 --> 00:11:33,440 about careers, you know, and I remember graphic 313 00:11:33,440 --> 00:11:36,480 design being one of the results of that 314 00:11:36,480 --> 00:11:36,860 questionnaire. 315 00:11:38,060 --> 00:11:39,580 Wasn't really something I was aware of at 316 00:11:39,580 --> 00:11:39,900 the time. 317 00:11:39,980 --> 00:11:41,040 I think when you're 12 or 13, you 318 00:11:41,040 --> 00:11:44,120 don't really think about the process behind that 319 00:11:44,120 --> 00:11:47,100 goes into everyday things and objects around the 320 00:11:47,100 --> 00:11:47,240 world. 321 00:11:47,380 --> 00:11:49,560 But like graphic design was maybe a bit 322 00:11:49,560 --> 00:11:50,780 more understandable. 323 00:11:51,900 --> 00:11:54,640 You know, logos, posters, that kind of stuff. 324 00:11:56,160 --> 00:11:58,760 So I kind of gravitate towards that initially. 325 00:12:00,540 --> 00:12:02,200 I would say as well, it also suggested 326 00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:04,980 like park ranger as one of the options 327 00:12:04,980 --> 00:12:05,260 as well. 328 00:12:05,560 --> 00:12:07,060 So I don't know how good this thing 329 00:12:07,060 --> 00:12:07,740 was. 330 00:12:08,780 --> 00:12:10,460 But at least I've seen the hat with 331 00:12:10,460 --> 00:12:13,820 your beard, you know, strong look. 332 00:12:14,260 --> 00:12:14,560 I don't know. 333 00:12:14,620 --> 00:12:16,500 There's probably some question about working outdoors or 334 00:12:16,500 --> 00:12:16,780 something. 335 00:12:16,780 --> 00:12:19,420 Maybe I said I'd be slightly interested in 336 00:12:19,420 --> 00:12:19,560 that. 337 00:12:19,640 --> 00:12:20,060 I don't know. 338 00:12:23,440 --> 00:12:24,840 That kind of planted the seed. 339 00:12:25,160 --> 00:12:29,140 And then my secondary school offered graphic design 340 00:12:29,140 --> 00:12:29,920 as a GCSE. 341 00:12:30,660 --> 00:12:32,720 So I just took it generally at school. 342 00:12:32,860 --> 00:12:34,360 I just took the subjects I was interested 343 00:12:34,360 --> 00:12:34,660 in. 344 00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:36,740 I didn't really think about it from like, 345 00:12:36,860 --> 00:12:37,800 what I want to do and all that 346 00:12:37,800 --> 00:12:38,180 point of view. 347 00:12:38,260 --> 00:12:39,620 It's just that I enjoy doing design. 348 00:12:39,960 --> 00:12:44,400 So out of like cooking and whatever the 349 00:12:44,400 --> 00:12:47,260 DT curriculum was, graphic design was the most 350 00:12:47,260 --> 00:12:48,500 prevalent one. 351 00:12:49,300 --> 00:12:51,040 It was like textiles or cooking with either 352 00:12:51,040 --> 00:12:51,340 options. 353 00:12:52,020 --> 00:12:53,180 So I was doing that GCSE. 354 00:12:53,620 --> 00:12:56,080 And then I just went to my local 355 00:12:56,080 --> 00:12:57,040 state comprehensive. 356 00:12:58,700 --> 00:13:00,700 But around that time, the school became a 357 00:13:00,700 --> 00:13:02,680 specialist technology college, which I still don't really 358 00:13:02,680 --> 00:13:03,200 know what it meant. 359 00:13:03,380 --> 00:13:05,580 But I think fundamentally, they got a bit 360 00:13:05,580 --> 00:13:07,500 more funding for design technology. 361 00:13:07,920 --> 00:13:09,560 So they actually offered as an A-level 362 00:13:09,560 --> 00:13:12,780 product design and technology, I think was the 363 00:13:12,780 --> 00:13:13,340 title. 364 00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:18,960 And this was before like UX and UI 365 00:13:18,960 --> 00:13:22,640 designers hijacked product design as a job title 366 00:13:22,640 --> 00:13:23,500 and job description. 367 00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:26,800 But really that was about, it was an 368 00:13:26,800 --> 00:13:29,180 industrial design GCSE and A-level essentially. 369 00:13:30,840 --> 00:13:32,500 You got to pick something to design, you 370 00:13:32,500 --> 00:13:33,720 run through that concept, you did a bit 371 00:13:33,720 --> 00:13:35,500 of model making, you presented it, you did 372 00:13:35,500 --> 00:13:39,200 a bit of design for manufacturing, cost analysis 373 00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:39,720 essentially. 374 00:13:39,720 --> 00:13:43,680 And my A-level teacher, again, I didn't 375 00:13:43,680 --> 00:13:44,820 really realize this was a thing you can 376 00:13:44,820 --> 00:13:46,680 do in the real world. 377 00:13:47,180 --> 00:13:48,660 But my A-level teacher at the time, 378 00:13:49,580 --> 00:13:52,520 Mr. Bird, he said, I think it was 379 00:13:52,520 --> 00:13:53,500 just a chat one time. 380 00:13:53,620 --> 00:13:55,260 I was good at it, I was getting 381 00:13:55,260 --> 00:13:57,080 good results and good marks. 382 00:13:58,100 --> 00:14:00,540 Then he said, you can go do this. 383 00:14:01,140 --> 00:14:03,580 And he pushed me towards, he went to 384 00:14:03,580 --> 00:14:04,300 Loughborough himself. 385 00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:07,100 He said, yeah, Loughborough is one of the 386 00:14:07,100 --> 00:14:07,620 best places. 387 00:14:07,740 --> 00:14:12,960 I think at the time, we're talking 2007, 388 00:14:13,640 --> 00:14:15,720 I think, around this time, 2007, 2008. 389 00:14:17,100 --> 00:14:20,220 So Loughborough, Brunel, and Northumbria were probably the 390 00:14:20,220 --> 00:14:22,340 three big universities at the time if you 391 00:14:22,340 --> 00:14:23,300 were going into design. 392 00:14:23,360 --> 00:14:24,660 I started going to open days. 393 00:14:25,140 --> 00:14:26,160 But he was the one who really made 394 00:14:26,160 --> 00:14:29,280 me realize that it was not just a 395 00:14:29,280 --> 00:14:30,580 job you could go and do, but actually 396 00:14:30,580 --> 00:14:32,620 something I was capable of going to do. 397 00:14:33,180 --> 00:14:34,720 So for me, I just enjoyed it. 398 00:14:34,840 --> 00:14:35,680 So I just followed it. 399 00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:37,800 From that point, I followed it to graphic 400 00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:40,720 design through to the design A-level, and 401 00:14:40,720 --> 00:14:42,680 then through to going and doing industrial design 402 00:14:42,680 --> 00:14:44,040 at Loughborough University. 403 00:14:45,260 --> 00:14:47,220 And really, like I said, I just followed 404 00:14:47,220 --> 00:14:47,980 what I enjoyed. 405 00:14:49,660 --> 00:14:52,440 Yeah, I think he's probably been the most 406 00:14:52,440 --> 00:14:57,740 impactful teaching figure, I guess, in my career 407 00:14:57,740 --> 00:14:59,180 and that kind of thing, exactly what a 408 00:14:59,180 --> 00:14:59,960 teacher should do. 409 00:15:00,100 --> 00:15:02,300 And sadly, he passed away suddenly a few 410 00:15:02,300 --> 00:15:02,880 years ago. 411 00:15:04,500 --> 00:15:06,520 And a bit of trivia, his son is 412 00:15:06,520 --> 00:15:08,580 Max Bird, who plays for Bristol City now. 413 00:15:08,720 --> 00:15:09,980 He was in the Derby Academy. 414 00:15:11,440 --> 00:15:13,920 So yeah, so his son's a championship footballer. 415 00:15:15,100 --> 00:15:16,660 But yeah, like he was a great, great 416 00:15:16,660 --> 00:15:18,880 source of, I guess, like helping me understand 417 00:15:18,880 --> 00:15:21,060 and pushing me in the right direction, seeing 418 00:15:21,060 --> 00:15:22,700 what I could do, I guess. 419 00:15:23,340 --> 00:15:24,720 So that's why design. 420 00:15:25,820 --> 00:15:27,880 And then from there, really, it's pretty, you 421 00:15:27,880 --> 00:15:29,580 know, that focus is already narrowed. 422 00:15:29,840 --> 00:15:31,120 And, you know, I went to go to 423 00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:34,320 consultancy once I started to get towards the 424 00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:36,860 end of the course, and just for that 425 00:15:36,860 --> 00:15:40,360 breadth of product exposure, ended up chatting to 426 00:15:40,360 --> 00:15:42,260 DCA folk at the degree show at Loughborough, 427 00:15:43,020 --> 00:15:44,700 got the job at DCA, before I'd been 428 00:15:44,700 --> 00:15:45,780 there for a couple of years and had 429 00:15:45,780 --> 00:15:46,980 been there for seven years. 430 00:15:47,740 --> 00:15:49,340 But I moved down to London and joined 431 00:15:49,340 --> 00:15:49,640 Layer. 432 00:15:50,040 --> 00:15:52,000 And then, yeah, now three years at Layer, 433 00:15:52,100 --> 00:15:54,020 I hopped to Automata, where now I'm in 434 00:15:54,020 --> 00:15:54,760 for another three years. 435 00:15:55,400 --> 00:15:56,580 So yeah, it moved back. 436 00:15:56,580 --> 00:15:58,160 I guess you would have been a year 437 00:15:58,160 --> 00:16:00,740 or two behind Benjamin Hubert at Loughborough. 438 00:16:01,180 --> 00:16:05,660 Yeah, I think then I remember seeing his 439 00:16:05,660 --> 00:16:08,980 sketches for his final year project up around 440 00:16:08,980 --> 00:16:11,300 what was the Bridgman Centre at the time. 441 00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:12,100 That's not there anymore. 442 00:16:13,560 --> 00:16:16,180 Yeah, he was probably, I think he graduated 443 00:16:16,180 --> 00:16:17,140 in 2008, maybe. 444 00:16:17,240 --> 00:16:18,520 I think he might graduate the year I 445 00:16:18,520 --> 00:16:19,360 started potentially. 446 00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:22,960 He's probably about 40 now. 447 00:16:23,620 --> 00:16:25,500 So yeah, he'll be maybe four or five 448 00:16:25,500 --> 00:16:26,040 years ahead of me. 449 00:16:27,100 --> 00:16:29,040 But yeah, I guess I was like, kind 450 00:16:29,040 --> 00:16:32,100 of aware of him from a very early 451 00:16:32,100 --> 00:16:32,420 point. 452 00:16:33,040 --> 00:16:36,000 And I'll be able to go to Loughborough 453 00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:36,440 as well. 454 00:16:37,320 --> 00:16:39,980 Did you work together at DCA or had 455 00:16:39,980 --> 00:16:40,880 he left by that point? 456 00:16:40,920 --> 00:16:42,240 No, he left before I started. 457 00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:44,360 But again, he'd definitely left his mark at 458 00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:45,720 DCA on some of the projects. 459 00:16:46,060 --> 00:16:46,220 Yeah. 460 00:16:48,160 --> 00:16:48,800 That's cool. 461 00:16:49,140 --> 00:16:51,220 It's interesting how these things overlap. 462 00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:52,720 I've got a friend who studied in the 463 00:16:52,720 --> 00:16:55,000 same cohort as Benjamin and they've gone in 464 00:16:55,000 --> 00:16:56,120 completely different paths. 465 00:16:56,620 --> 00:17:00,380 Paul's gone down more of a manufacturing route 466 00:17:00,380 --> 00:17:01,360 in the Midlands. 467 00:17:01,360 --> 00:17:05,020 And then Benjamin's obviously doing this very exciting 468 00:17:05,020 --> 00:17:06,260 projects down in London. 469 00:17:06,560 --> 00:17:07,660 Let me pause here for a moment. 470 00:17:08,339 --> 00:17:09,980 Most of the leaders on this podcast did 471 00:17:09,980 --> 00:17:12,000 not grow because they hired quickly. 472 00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:14,240 They grew because they hired well. 473 00:17:14,940 --> 00:17:18,020 The right senior engineer can accelerate a hardware 474 00:17:18,020 --> 00:17:19,220 roadmap by a year. 475 00:17:19,700 --> 00:17:21,300 The wrong one can stall it. 476 00:17:22,099 --> 00:17:24,460 At KODU, we help physical product teams make 477 00:17:24,460 --> 00:17:26,640 that hire with clarity and precision. 478 00:17:27,319 --> 00:17:29,220 If you're about to make a key design 479 00:17:29,220 --> 00:17:31,800 or engineering hire or thinking about your own 480 00:17:31,800 --> 00:17:34,000 next move, reach out to me on LinkedIn. 481 00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:36,080 Let's talk before you commit. 482 00:17:37,260 --> 00:17:39,820 When you look back, Dan, at your early 483 00:17:39,820 --> 00:17:42,500 years at DCA, what kind of designer were 484 00:17:42,500 --> 00:17:42,840 you then? 485 00:17:44,980 --> 00:17:47,420 I'll be honest, I wasn't very good. 486 00:17:48,180 --> 00:17:54,640 In terms of, I often joke, I did 487 00:17:54,640 --> 00:17:55,440 a lot of recruitment. 488 00:17:56,060 --> 00:17:57,380 Like a bit later on at DCA, I 489 00:17:57,380 --> 00:17:58,060 did a lot of recruitment. 490 00:17:58,060 --> 00:18:00,060 I did a lot of recruitment at Layer 491 00:18:00,060 --> 00:18:00,500 as well. 492 00:18:00,820 --> 00:18:02,580 So seeing lots of portfolios. 493 00:18:03,580 --> 00:18:04,900 The bit I always took in the back 494 00:18:04,900 --> 00:18:07,480 of my mind was I was dismissing portfolios 495 00:18:07,480 --> 00:18:10,580 or rejecting them and stuff when they were 496 00:18:10,580 --> 00:18:12,000 far better than what I was doing at 497 00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:12,380 that age. 498 00:18:13,220 --> 00:18:15,360 But I think also, I think the tool 499 00:18:15,360 --> 00:18:17,300 sets changed and I think the bar has 500 00:18:17,300 --> 00:18:17,720 just risen. 501 00:18:18,180 --> 00:18:20,660 I think particularly, there was no real rendering 502 00:18:21,180 --> 00:18:23,140 when I was around the time of graduation. 503 00:18:24,080 --> 00:18:25,180 KeyShot didn't exist. 504 00:18:25,180 --> 00:18:28,580 And I think that and some of the 505 00:18:28,580 --> 00:18:30,020 CAD tools have gotten way easier to use. 506 00:18:30,120 --> 00:18:32,720 So now you are seeing much more polished, 507 00:18:32,900 --> 00:18:33,440 refined designs. 508 00:18:33,560 --> 00:18:37,460 I think also where you can see inspiration 509 00:18:37,460 --> 00:18:38,000 has changed. 510 00:18:38,120 --> 00:18:40,280 There was no Pinterest and that kind of 511 00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:42,940 stuff when I was doing this kind of 512 00:18:42,940 --> 00:18:43,220 stuff. 513 00:18:43,680 --> 00:18:47,600 But yeah, my portfolio was quite weak looking 514 00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:49,040 back at what it was when I graduated. 515 00:18:51,340 --> 00:18:52,780 But I think it was more from how 516 00:18:52,780 --> 00:18:55,440 I was presenting the work and the things 517 00:18:55,440 --> 00:18:56,340 I was talking about. 518 00:18:57,240 --> 00:18:58,540 And also just my approach to styling. 519 00:18:58,680 --> 00:19:00,800 I think I used to overcomplicate the way 520 00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:03,220 I was approaching form and detailing. 521 00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:05,100 It was too complex. 522 00:19:05,340 --> 00:19:06,420 I think the hardest thing to do as 523 00:19:06,420 --> 00:19:09,560 an illustrator is kind of restraint, but restraint 524 00:19:09,560 --> 00:19:12,540 in a compelling way without it looking basic 525 00:19:12,540 --> 00:19:13,100 or simple. 526 00:19:15,280 --> 00:19:18,240 But I think there was enough there that 527 00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:21,160 they saw, I guess, potential. 528 00:19:21,720 --> 00:19:23,800 I did my placement year at Diageo. 529 00:19:24,080 --> 00:19:26,660 So Umbrella Corporation, you were in lots, you 530 00:19:26,660 --> 00:19:28,520 know, Smirnoff, Ginnett, Johnnie Walker. 531 00:19:28,680 --> 00:19:30,760 So there was a lot of like primary 532 00:19:30,760 --> 00:19:33,720 packaging and one-off like airport duty-free 533 00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:35,560 type things I was working on there for 534 00:19:35,560 --> 00:19:36,820 like Johnnie Walker and that kind of stuff. 535 00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:39,200 So there was a bit of FMCG packaging. 536 00:19:40,300 --> 00:19:41,940 So coming out of uni, I remember like 537 00:19:41,940 --> 00:19:44,400 the packaging department at Seymour Powell, I interviewed 538 00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:44,840 there. 539 00:19:45,820 --> 00:19:48,860 They made it very clear that if you 540 00:19:48,860 --> 00:19:50,700 join the packaging team, it's not a shortcut 541 00:19:50,700 --> 00:19:52,580 to joining their like ID team because they 542 00:19:52,580 --> 00:19:53,540 had different teams. 543 00:19:54,320 --> 00:19:56,780 But then also GCA, you know, with their 544 00:19:56,780 --> 00:19:58,120 clients, a lot of their clients being like 545 00:19:58,120 --> 00:20:00,880 GSK and Reckitt Benckiser and a few of 546 00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:04,100 the FMCG brands. 547 00:20:04,300 --> 00:20:06,200 I think they saw that and were like, 548 00:20:06,240 --> 00:20:07,320 okay, that could be useful. 549 00:20:07,480 --> 00:20:10,580 And Tip Sharp was the head of design 550 00:20:10,580 --> 00:20:12,240 at GCA at the time and he brought 551 00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:12,820 me in. 552 00:20:13,380 --> 00:20:16,000 I think like to answer your initial question, 553 00:20:16,100 --> 00:20:18,160 I think I was probably not confident enough 554 00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:21,240 to stick to what I felt comfortable with. 555 00:20:21,360 --> 00:20:23,720 So I was trying to be the kind 556 00:20:23,720 --> 00:20:25,520 of designer that I was seeing the other 557 00:20:25,520 --> 00:20:27,540 designers at GCA being, which was like a 558 00:20:27,540 --> 00:20:29,820 lot of, you know, everyone at GCA at 559 00:20:29,820 --> 00:20:31,200 that time had a giant Wacom tablet. 560 00:20:31,440 --> 00:20:32,980 So a lot of the work would be 561 00:20:32,980 --> 00:20:34,440 in the early, like the first stages of 562 00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:37,960 work would be really beautiful, like Wacom digital 563 00:20:37,960 --> 00:20:38,440 sketches. 564 00:20:38,820 --> 00:20:40,700 But I've never really been that strong at 565 00:20:40,700 --> 00:20:42,460 sketching, not from a presentation point of view, 566 00:20:42,560 --> 00:20:44,740 like I'll sketch rough and dirty. 567 00:20:45,300 --> 00:20:47,580 But I've always been really strong and really 568 00:20:47,580 --> 00:20:48,360 quick in CAD. 569 00:20:48,600 --> 00:20:50,340 So I can visualize head very well in 570 00:20:50,340 --> 00:20:50,780 3D. 571 00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:53,400 And I would just like, now, I just 572 00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:55,180 jump into CAD, I can mock something in 573 00:20:55,180 --> 00:20:56,420 CAD and render it quicker than I could 574 00:20:56,420 --> 00:20:58,040 like do layers and layers of sketching. 575 00:20:58,260 --> 00:20:59,560 And I think the industry has now shifted 576 00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:00,500 towards that. 577 00:21:00,980 --> 00:21:02,540 But at the time, it was still a 578 00:21:02,540 --> 00:21:04,180 bit more traditional focus where you would present 579 00:21:04,180 --> 00:21:06,260 sketches in like a first phase. 580 00:21:07,160 --> 00:21:08,160 And I was struggling with that. 581 00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:09,440 And like the feedback I would get would 582 00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:12,900 be like, yeah, I was on, I almost 583 00:21:12,900 --> 00:21:14,160 didn't pass my probation period. 584 00:21:14,660 --> 00:21:15,040 Oh, really? 585 00:21:15,420 --> 00:21:16,760 Yeah, there was a bit of debate around 586 00:21:16,760 --> 00:21:17,080 the time. 587 00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:19,220 You know, again, I was showing promise, but 588 00:21:19,220 --> 00:21:19,960 not quite enough. 589 00:21:20,100 --> 00:21:21,480 And then I really hit the ground running 590 00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:23,440 at DCA when I kind of ignored the 591 00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:25,920 feedback around, don't go into CAD too early. 592 00:21:26,280 --> 00:21:26,880 And all this kind of stuff. 593 00:21:26,980 --> 00:21:28,220 So I decided, okay, I'm going to go 594 00:21:28,220 --> 00:21:28,620 into CAD. 595 00:21:28,740 --> 00:21:29,700 And then I'll sketch over it. 596 00:21:29,760 --> 00:21:31,180 You know, I then just like use my 597 00:21:31,180 --> 00:21:33,620 skill set to then help support the projects. 598 00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:36,740 So that took a couple of years like 599 00:21:36,740 --> 00:21:38,260 to kind of get to that level of 600 00:21:38,260 --> 00:21:38,740 confidence. 601 00:21:38,940 --> 00:21:41,760 But once I kind of embraced, like I 602 00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:42,760 just played to my strengths. 603 00:21:43,020 --> 00:21:46,140 I think eventually the feedback of like, oh, 604 00:21:46,180 --> 00:21:47,600 Dan jumps into CAD too early and like 605 00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:49,260 my performance reviews and stuff that stopped coming 606 00:21:49,260 --> 00:21:51,340 because they realized that actually, that's like how 607 00:21:51,340 --> 00:21:51,840 I work. 608 00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:53,620 And then for the end of everyone, I 609 00:21:53,620 --> 00:21:55,640 would have to take a layer, like the 610 00:21:55,640 --> 00:21:57,620 first phases of, even towards the end of 611 00:21:57,620 --> 00:22:00,700 DCA, like first phase presentations would be like 612 00:22:00,700 --> 00:22:03,860 photo realistic renders of like the perfect detail 613 00:22:03,860 --> 00:22:04,660 CAD and everything. 614 00:22:04,740 --> 00:22:05,860 That's just like the way it's moved to 615 00:22:05,860 --> 00:22:06,140 now. 616 00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:10,140 So yeah, any advice I'd give to anyone 617 00:22:10,140 --> 00:22:11,880 is just like stick to your strengths. 618 00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:15,060 Don't try and be like other designers because 619 00:22:15,060 --> 00:22:17,540 everyone's different and how they approach problems. 620 00:22:18,580 --> 00:22:19,100 Yeah, absolutely. 621 00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:22,020 I mean, I've agonized over this over the 622 00:22:22,020 --> 00:22:25,920 years when you're building teams and everyone's got 623 00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:29,620 their own strengths, but as a consequence, they've 624 00:22:29,620 --> 00:22:30,200 got gaps. 625 00:22:30,340 --> 00:22:31,860 They've got weak areas that they're not so 626 00:22:31,860 --> 00:22:32,400 strong in. 627 00:22:33,060 --> 00:22:36,320 And when I was kind of a young 628 00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:39,220 manager trying to train someone on something that 629 00:22:39,220 --> 00:22:42,000 they weren't particularly good at all, probably weren't 630 00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:43,140 that bothered about really. 631 00:22:43,260 --> 00:22:44,720 They didn't see the point of it because 632 00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:46,220 they were really good in other areas. 633 00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:49,180 And as soon as I started, someone said 634 00:22:49,180 --> 00:22:51,860 to me, why are you wasting so much 635 00:22:51,860 --> 00:22:54,500 energy trying to force this person to be 636 00:22:54,500 --> 00:22:56,380 someone that they don't want to be? 637 00:22:56,780 --> 00:22:59,000 If I just make the most out of 638 00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:00,900 what they're really good at, if they're good 639 00:23:00,900 --> 00:23:03,580 for the business, and then you can find 640 00:23:03,580 --> 00:23:05,780 other people or you can compensate in other 641 00:23:05,780 --> 00:23:07,460 areas because you've got a good blend in 642 00:23:07,460 --> 00:23:07,820 the team. 643 00:23:08,100 --> 00:23:10,120 So as soon as I realized that, it 644 00:23:10,120 --> 00:23:12,460 reduced a lot of stress for me personally 645 00:23:12,460 --> 00:23:15,500 because it's like, well, that person is going 646 00:23:15,500 --> 00:23:17,440 to be less annoyed because they're doing something 647 00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:19,620 they don't enjoy that they're all good at 648 00:23:19,620 --> 00:23:21,580 and they're going to be happy doing the 649 00:23:21,580 --> 00:23:22,400 things that they're good at. 650 00:23:22,460 --> 00:23:25,540 And I can turn my attention to encouraging 651 00:23:25,540 --> 00:23:26,900 that and getting them better at the things 652 00:23:26,900 --> 00:23:27,300 they're good at. 653 00:23:27,460 --> 00:23:29,900 So yeah, I love that. 654 00:23:30,780 --> 00:23:32,900 You mentioned that you met Dieter Rams. 655 00:23:33,580 --> 00:23:33,980 Yes. 656 00:23:33,980 --> 00:23:34,840 In your career as well. 657 00:23:35,060 --> 00:23:37,900 How did meeting him kind of shape your 658 00:23:37,900 --> 00:23:39,340 idea of what good design means? 659 00:23:41,340 --> 00:23:43,800 Um, yeah, even now, it was like I 660 00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:45,720 realized it's actually 10 years ago. 661 00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:46,420 Yeah, it was 2015. 662 00:23:47,780 --> 00:23:50,940 So there was something called, I can't remember 663 00:23:50,940 --> 00:23:52,040 the order of these things, but I think 664 00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:54,080 something that DCA worked quite good at was 665 00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:56,440 if people had ideas, they'd let them explore 666 00:23:56,440 --> 00:23:57,040 concepts. 667 00:23:59,180 --> 00:24:02,120 And if those concepts were kind of like 668 00:24:02,120 --> 00:24:05,080 compelling, they would fund like submissions to design 669 00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:05,400 awards. 670 00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:07,800 So, you know, I did get a couple 671 00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:10,100 of IFs and red dots for concepts we 672 00:24:10,100 --> 00:24:10,520 worked up. 673 00:24:10,660 --> 00:24:12,160 And, you know, they're not cheap, but, you 674 00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:13,980 know, DCA were good at investing in that. 675 00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:16,580 And, you know, for me to go to 676 00:24:16,580 --> 00:24:19,000 the awards ceremony sometimes and that kind of 677 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:19,320 thing. 678 00:24:20,100 --> 00:24:21,920 But like, I think this one came about 679 00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:23,660 was there's a guy called James May. 680 00:24:23,980 --> 00:24:26,040 He's still at DCA now, and he predominantly 681 00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:30,400 works in, like, I can't see, forgot. 682 00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:33,640 It's like basically B2B, side of the business, 683 00:24:33,860 --> 00:24:34,580 I think it's called now. 684 00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:37,620 He had this idea to do a fuse 685 00:24:37,620 --> 00:24:37,900 box. 686 00:24:39,380 --> 00:24:43,200 I think his idea was, why can't the 687 00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:44,980 fuse box be used to like actually monitor 688 00:24:44,980 --> 00:24:46,480 your energy consumption? 689 00:24:47,020 --> 00:24:48,160 I think that was kind of like the, 690 00:24:48,220 --> 00:24:49,740 like I said, the light bulb, the light 691 00:24:49,740 --> 00:24:50,800 bulb he had. 692 00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:52,960 And when I heard this, it was one 693 00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:54,840 of those ones where just the idea of 694 00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:56,540 like how to do that almost just came 695 00:24:56,540 --> 00:24:57,640 fully formed into my head. 696 00:24:57,720 --> 00:24:59,080 Like I barely did any, you know, I'll 697 00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:00,020 talk about jumping into CAD. 698 00:25:00,500 --> 00:25:01,600 I pretty much like jumped into CAD. 699 00:25:01,700 --> 00:25:03,340 I think I did two options and I 700 00:25:03,340 --> 00:25:04,780 just went with one of them. 701 00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:06,120 And that one was the one that I 702 00:25:06,120 --> 00:25:09,340 visualized pulled together into like the submission. 703 00:25:09,820 --> 00:25:10,760 And I think originally I was just pulling 704 00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:12,360 it together to sort of submit to a 705 00:25:12,360 --> 00:25:13,600 Red Dot concept or something. 706 00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:15,760 And, you know, I went with James on 707 00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:17,720 that and there was a couple of other 708 00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:20,000 guys who supported from electronics point of view, 709 00:25:20,100 --> 00:25:22,360 like some of the electronics engineers, a chap 710 00:25:22,360 --> 00:25:23,240 called Charles Sparrow. 711 00:25:24,700 --> 00:25:25,340 Worked it up. 712 00:25:25,660 --> 00:25:27,080 And then I think at the time, I 713 00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:28,760 just saw, you know, there was the Braun 714 00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:30,060 Prize, 2015 Braun Prize. 715 00:25:30,140 --> 00:25:32,580 I think the Braun Prize, they only do 716 00:25:32,580 --> 00:25:33,820 it every three years, I think. 717 00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:35,760 It's not like an annual thing. 718 00:25:35,860 --> 00:25:37,540 And it's also, you don't pay to play, 719 00:25:37,700 --> 00:25:39,100 you know, like Red Dot and IF, you 720 00:25:39,100 --> 00:25:40,520 know, you pay to enter that you pay 721 00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:41,280 even more if you win. 722 00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:46,300 This one was, they pick just three, like 723 00:25:46,300 --> 00:25:48,760 out of the submissions, they pick the top 724 00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:49,040 three. 725 00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:51,300 And then you get to go, you'd go 726 00:25:51,300 --> 00:25:53,500 to Germany, go to the Braun HQ and 727 00:25:53,500 --> 00:25:53,920 then present. 728 00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:56,040 And then the audience then votes for gold, 729 00:25:56,120 --> 00:25:57,100 silver, bronze, essentially. 730 00:25:57,280 --> 00:25:59,100 And they have like, there's a professional category, 731 00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:02,120 a student category and like a hobbyist enthusiast 732 00:26:02,120 --> 00:26:03,120 category, something like that. 733 00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:06,200 And the Braun Prize came active. 734 00:26:06,340 --> 00:26:09,240 And the theme for that year was the 735 00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:10,380 extra in the ordinary. 736 00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:13,820 So ordinary objects, which maybe have become maligned, 737 00:26:13,900 --> 00:26:15,040 not really thought about too much. 738 00:26:15,460 --> 00:26:17,300 Like the fuse box was just like perfect 739 00:26:17,300 --> 00:26:17,800 for it. 740 00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:19,840 Like something that's never really been thought about 741 00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:20,960 in terms of how it's designed. 742 00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:24,260 So we submitted it, waited a few minutes 743 00:26:24,260 --> 00:26:25,880 and then yeah, got an email, came through 744 00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:29,240 saying like, you know, congratulations, you're in the 745 00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:29,720 last three. 746 00:26:30,020 --> 00:26:31,000 So I think it was something that has 747 00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:34,060 like, there's maybe 3,000 submissions or something. 748 00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:35,900 We've got the last three for the concept. 749 00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:40,420 Um, so then yeah, we made a model 750 00:26:40,420 --> 00:26:43,780 of it, did some animations to like take 751 00:26:43,780 --> 00:26:45,980 to the show. 752 00:26:46,220 --> 00:26:48,000 And then Dieter Rams was there, you know, 753 00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:49,240 he was part of the audience, he was 754 00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:52,440 part of the jury, not for the actual 755 00:26:52,900 --> 00:26:54,400 deciding the last three, but he was there 756 00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:55,600 to like vote on it on the last 757 00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:55,740 day. 758 00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:56,860 And he was like sat in front row. 759 00:26:57,480 --> 00:26:59,700 And again, credit to DCA, you know, I 760 00:26:59,700 --> 00:27:01,580 was 25 at the time, I was a 761 00:27:01,580 --> 00:27:02,740 mid weight designer. 762 00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:06,420 And Nick Bible, who's the director at DCA, 763 00:27:07,300 --> 00:27:08,700 he let me present. 764 00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:11,340 I think like, but the companies may be 765 00:27:11,340 --> 00:27:13,040 like, you know, this, you know, the creative 766 00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:15,840 director or someone senior or lead would then 767 00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:16,520 take that responsibility. 768 00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:20,400 But they let me present the project to, 769 00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:23,020 you know, Dieter Rams and an auditorium of 770 00:27:23,020 --> 00:27:27,280 around, I don't know, 200 odd people, which 771 00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:30,500 was a very interesting experience. 772 00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:33,920 It's probably the most practiced I've ever been. 773 00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:36,500 Normally my presentation starts, I don't rehearse, I 774 00:27:36,500 --> 00:27:38,700 don't script it, because then it feels forced. 775 00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:40,980 But this one we ran through hundreds of 776 00:27:40,980 --> 00:27:42,620 times before the show. 777 00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:46,960 And yeah, when I did the presentation, we 778 00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:47,520 came second. 779 00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:50,440 The thing that won was a life jacket. 780 00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:53,260 So I think like monitoring energy versus saving 781 00:27:53,260 --> 00:27:55,700 someone's life, you know, that's always going to 782 00:27:55,700 --> 00:27:56,540 win that kind of thing. 783 00:27:57,340 --> 00:27:58,740 And then yeah, in the after party, I 784 00:27:58,740 --> 00:28:00,300 think at the time Dieter would have been 785 00:28:00,860 --> 00:28:02,480 maybe 85, something like that. 786 00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:05,080 And he had this like really beautifully made 787 00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:06,940 walking stick, which apparently people always ask him 788 00:28:06,940 --> 00:28:08,240 where he got it, but apparently someone made 789 00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:08,720 it for him. 790 00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:12,580 And he was like joining in in the 791 00:28:12,580 --> 00:28:14,740 party essentially, you know, he was stopping for 792 00:28:14,740 --> 00:28:16,300 photos and there was lots of like students 793 00:28:16,300 --> 00:28:18,460 there and younger designers all having photos with 794 00:28:18,460 --> 00:28:18,600 him. 795 00:28:19,060 --> 00:28:20,460 He shook my hand, he said congratulations. 796 00:28:21,100 --> 00:28:22,060 We had a brief chat. 797 00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:23,220 And yeah, it's one of those things where 798 00:28:23,220 --> 00:28:24,340 it's just the end, even now it just 799 00:28:24,340 --> 00:28:27,300 feels a bit surreal that I met him. 800 00:28:28,360 --> 00:28:31,720 But also one of the jury was Benjamin 801 00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:32,000 Hubert. 802 00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:34,800 So that was my first exposure, like direct 803 00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:35,680 exposure with him. 804 00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:37,420 So I met him then. 805 00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:39,700 So at least he was, when I did 806 00:28:39,700 --> 00:28:41,960 actually approach Lair eventually, he was already aware 807 00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:42,320 of me. 808 00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:45,700 So it was quite a few years that 809 00:28:45,700 --> 00:28:46,800 I actually made the move to Lair after 810 00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:47,060 that. 811 00:28:47,220 --> 00:28:49,860 But yeah, it was just, I still don't 812 00:28:49,860 --> 00:28:52,200 think there's ever going to be something in 813 00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:54,220 my career that would top that in terms 814 00:28:54,220 --> 00:28:56,180 of when else do you ever get to 815 00:28:56,180 --> 00:28:57,220 meet Dieter Rams. 816 00:28:58,120 --> 00:28:59,540 It was like the point of it. 817 00:28:59,660 --> 00:29:01,340 So yeah, it was, and you also presented 818 00:29:01,340 --> 00:29:01,620 him. 819 00:29:01,620 --> 00:29:04,780 So yeah, that was a really, really quite 820 00:29:04,780 --> 00:29:05,740 amazing thing to do with Shaker. 821 00:29:06,100 --> 00:29:07,160 So it just still feels bizarre. 822 00:29:08,220 --> 00:29:08,380 Yeah. 823 00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:11,180 I mean, it's a, it's a top recruiting 824 00:29:11,180 --> 00:29:13,460 strategy from Benjamin as well, isn't it? 825 00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:16,960 Set on a jury and then, you know, 826 00:29:17,180 --> 00:29:19,480 just keep tabs on the top three. 827 00:29:20,420 --> 00:29:22,140 But yeah, what a pivotal moment for you. 828 00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:22,760 That's amazing. 829 00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:27,700 So yeah, well, let's talk about the shift 830 00:29:27,700 --> 00:29:31,460 then from consultancy to automata. 831 00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:33,340 Told you I'd struggle with that. 832 00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:39,380 So after spending over a decade in agency 833 00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:43,100 and then jumping into automata, what was it 834 00:29:43,100 --> 00:29:47,020 that kind of, that cemented that leap for 835 00:29:47,020 --> 00:29:47,140 you? 836 00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:49,120 You mentioned that the advert stood out. 837 00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:51,340 You were clearly open to opportunities by the 838 00:29:51,340 --> 00:29:52,640 kind of towards the end of your time 839 00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:53,320 at Lair. 840 00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:56,680 But what was it specific, specifically about automata 841 00:29:56,680 --> 00:29:58,900 that really grabbed you?