[00:00:00] The Missional Life Podcast, inspiring Kingdom-minded believers around the world to live the mission of God in their lives.

Dan: All right. Welcome back to Mission Life podcast. Today we have Jared Rock On the show. Jared is an award-winning author, filmmaker, and Christian thinker known for its deep. Thought provoking explorations of faith and history. His latest book, A Devil Named Lucifer, challenges many of the long held beliefs about Satan offering a biblically grounded look at who and what the devil really is.

It's a fascinating myth-busting conversation that will leave you rethinking what you thought you knew about spiritual warfare. Jared. Welcome to the show.

Amanda: Welcome.

Jared: Thanks for having me. Do you guys go by demand? Is that like your Hollywood couple name? That's right. That

Amanda: could work. Yeah. Excellent. That's a great idea.

Thanks for having

Dan: me.

Amanda: Thank you,

Dan: man. Glad to have you. let's start with a big question, [00:01:00] man. When I go into the Christian bookstore, usually I'm looking for books about Jesus. But your book is not about Jesus. What inspired you to write a book about. The devil,

Jared: bro. This book is all about Jesus.

So two years ago, I published a book up here on the shelf called A God named Josh. And it's a myth buster about the life of Jesus, starting with the fact that his name is not Jesus. And I wanted to write a sequel to a God named Josh, called a devil named Lucifer. Because there's this myth and culture that Jesus and the devil are like locked in an arm wrestling contest.

Who's gonna win? Who's gonna win? And it's not like that at all. That's actually. A myth that's came into Christianity via Zoroastrianism, which is like ancient Persian belief. It's called cosmic dualism. And it has nothing to do with the reality of who Satan is and what he does.

And so I decided to write a myth buster on the devil. And when I finished writing the book, I realized that I had written two books about Jesus, because the devil is a minor character in his own biography. He is not [00:02:00] the lead character in his story, and he's certainly not the lead character in our story.

Amen. Let's dive deeper into that.

Dan: So your book debunked many common beliefs about Satan. What is one of the biggest myths that Christians are believing right now?

Jared: Well, let's just start with the basics. Let's start with the fact that his name is not Lucifer or Devil or Satan. So Lucifer appears nowhere in the original Hebrew or Greek or Bible it appears a couple hundred years later in a Latin translation, but the word that's translated as Lucifer is either Day Star, Morningstar, Lucifer is a light bearer, a light bringer.

The first match ever created was called Lucifer, and there's several things in scripture that are described as light bearers. Jesus is a light bearer. Christians are light bearers, and creation is a light bearer. The devil is not a light bearer. He is not a Lucifer. Bible says that he disguises himself as an angel of light.

He pretends to be a Lucifer, but he is not actually a Lucifer. So his name is not Lucifer, but it's also not the Devil or [00:03:00] Satan. Those are just English words. original words are hasatan. Diablos and I think that we need to rip those words outta the English Bible because they have so much baggage.

We picture a little red devil sitting on our shoulder. I would love us to use two English words that, would pack the same punch that the original Hebrew and Greek readers. Would've felt when they heard the word Hasan or Diablos, which is accuser adversary. I know it's a mouthful. It's not a great brand, but I would love to call the devil accuser adversary because that really explains who he is and what he does.

He is an accuser who accuses adversarially.

Dan: So where did this picture come from of, I mean, it is not this little red guy sitting on my shoulder poking me and making me say all those things and do all those wrong things. where does that image and all that come from?

Jared: So our cultural picture of the devil is complete nonsense.

It has nothing to do with the Bible. It's kind of a mix and match of a whole bunch of different sources. So the horns are from Dion, [00:04:00] ISIS, and Baal. The red eyes are from a medieval manuscript called the Codex. Gigis. The mustache and goatee are from the God pan, the fiery sulfur breath, not a thing.

Revelation 12 says that he fused water. The cap and tights are from a Faust play. The wings are from Dantes Inferno. The list goes on and on and on. We don't have a depiction of the devil at all. There's not one artistic impression of accuser adversary prior to the sixth century, and it shows up in this chapel in Ravenna, and he's blue in that image.

It's not to say that the Devil's Blue, it's just that. It wasn't a big deal for the first 500 years of Christianity to even think about what the devil looked like, because the reality is he doesn't have a body. He's a spirit, and the Bible says that he disguises himself as an angel of light, so he's gonna present like a radiant messenger.

He's not gonna try and repulse and scare and disgust us. He's gonna do the opposite. He's gonna try to attract us and seduce us and allure us. So we actually need to be [00:05:00] on the lookout for things that are shiny, but are actually not real gold. So sex without commitment, knowledge without wisdom, wealth without contribution, tolerance.

Without discernment, being without love. We need to be on the lookout for fools gold.

Dan: So what you're saying is in order to sound. Look as bad as possible. He's taken different parts from different, places and different, things of history and compiled this imagery to almost present himself as this one person, but.

It's not any of that.

Jared: I don't even think the devil did it. I think we did it. I think humans did it. The reality is that the devil, he's not as big of a deal in one sense as people think he is. If you look in the Bible just at the capital S no, the Satan, so not the Satan, but.

Satan, he only makes a definitive appearance on three unique occasions in the Old Testament and Capital D. Know the devil only makes a definitive appearance just three unique times in the New Testament. The Bible talks more about donkeys than it does about the devil. The Bible tells more stories about olive oil than about Satan.

Satan [00:06:00] literally ranks between cheese and bread. You can make a Satan sandwich about how few times he actually appears in the Bible. There's also this myth that he's like on our shoulder, that he's like plaing us at all times. That he's personally harassing all Christians, and that's just not true.

There's nothing in the Bible that says that the devil is omnipresent, that he's all times, all places that he's with all of us. I did the math. Over a hundred year period, in the 8 billion person world, the devil could spend 0.39 seconds with each of us. So there's a very good chance that not a single person listening to this has ever had a face-to-face individual encounter with the devil that said.

99% of allies who fought in World War II never had a face-to-face with Adolf Hitler, but they were encountering his tactics and his schemes and his traps from North Africa to the Russian border. So the devil can never take a Christian soul, but the Bible says he's the father of lies, and he's been planting landmines all over humanity for thousands of years.

And so he's absolutely gonna try and blow your leg up. He's [00:07:00] gonna try to ruin your life, but he's probably not sitting on your shoulder.

Amanda: And you mentioned a term earlier that I just wanna go back to where dualism, was actually how you described people's interpretation of maybe, the arm wrestle between Jesus and the accuser adversary.

How did dualism infuse itself into the Christian faith? How did the culture affect that?

Jared: Yeah, so there's obviously a lot of cultural overlap in the Middle East. You know, the borders are changing constantly to this very day. And, at one point in Israel's history. The elites actually get kidnapped and taken into Babylon, so they're taken deep into the heart of the east.

You gotta remember that like Abraham, the kind of the founding father of our faith family. He was part of a family of moon worshipers from what is now modern day Iraq. Right? Like we're very far east mysticism. It's where we came out of. And so, there has just been these points in history where we've kind of been dragged back into that.

[00:08:00] Zoroastrianism came outta Persia and it just slowly sleeped its way into the psyche of the Middle East and the near East and the far east. Just this idea of. If there is a God, then there must be an opposite. We've got dark and light. We've got water and fire. It's a very primal idea.

This idea of opposites but equals. But that's not what the devil's like at all. God is more like a judo master who's using his opponent's, strength and agility and, trajectory against himself that every time the devil makes a move, he just twists 'em and drops 'em to the mat. By the time I finished writing this book, I realized that Jesus is a genius, like the God is brilliant.

The word I just kept coming back to is like, he's so brilliant. He's so many moves ahead, and everything the devil does ultimately is used to advance the kingdom of God. Martin Luther said, even the devil is God's devil.

Dan: Wow, so good. Let's track this. So in the Old Testament, how many times did you say that the devil appears, and what can you tell us some of those experiences?

Jared: So it [00:09:00] definitively three unique occasions. There's some overlaps. Remember the devil barely even gets to speak too. He speaks less than 250 words in English translations, and almost half of what he's saying is either. Quoting or misquoting scripture, like his actual unique contribution to scripture is an absolute rounding error.

Dan: Wow. So when he does talk to God, we see that one of the cases is in job. Can you talk situation and just what did you find out about that situation? 'cause that causes a lot of confusion in Christianity today.

Jared: So the Bible says that accuser, adversary, the devil, spends his days darting back and forth between heaven and earth to accuse the brethren, the faith family, Christians before the father in heaven.

temps and he tests and he traps, hears on earth. And then he goes and he tattletales. He goes to the courtroom of heaven and he says to God, so Amanda, she sinned so badly. You should hand her over to me and. Jesus is our advocate, and he stands up and he says, no, actually Amanda is [00:10:00] innocent.

Because of her faith in me. She has, grace through faith, and she's innocent her faith is counted to her as righteousness. She has my righteousness. And so Jesus is our defense. And I suppose at that point. The devil gets mad. God bangs the gavel, says, declares Amanda innocent. And then the devil goes back to do it again.

But it says that day and night he is accusing us before the father. That is what he does. He's not like this justice loving, justice seeking attorney at law. He is a, dirty lawyer. he is tempting. He is trapping so that he can tattletale. It's what he does. He accuses adversarially.

Dan: Wow. What was one of the most surprising things that you discovered when you were researching for this book? What took you by surprise?

Jared: So many things. Um, like, I mean, think a big one is just why does evil exist? Why does God allow the devil to exist? Just really taking the time to wrestle through and unpack that for me it just made me worship God. So let's think [00:11:00] about this for a minute. God is so intensely relational that even his being is a relationship.

It's a Trinity Father, son, holy Spirit. His own self is just this emanating just fireball of love and relationship. And one day they, God, they decide. They wanna expand that. They wanna share that love with more people. The Bible says, let us make man in our own image. Like, who is he talking to?

He's talking to himself, himself. It's crazy to think about. And so he decides to make human beings. He wants to share his love with more people, but he's not just making robots. Right? If my wife had a button that said, I love you. I love you, I love you. That's not real love. My wife has to have the ability to reject me in order for her to choose to love me.

So God says, okay, I've gotta give these people creating an image of God. These human beings, I have to give them free will, but hold on. If I give them free will, that opens up the door for them to [00:12:00] potentially rebel. For them to potentially say no and reject me. They're definitely gonna do that. We need to come up with a plan.

To redeem all things back to us, and so Jesus goes, I'll do it. Jesus says, I will go live. The horrific human experience. I will be killed by my enemies to redeem the world back to myself. And so the inevitable conclusion is that the reason evil exists is because God's love must be the most important thing in the universe.

That he's willing to risk us causing all this horrific pain and suffering, child abuse and genocide, and murder and rape and trafficking and all of it he's saying, do you know what? I want people to have a loving relationship with me, and I will just have to find a way that in every single one of those situations, that I'll redeem all things under myself.

Now, obviously. We don't know how in the world that is possible. Paul says, do you know what the weight of glory that's coming, is so big that it's not even worth considering the current troubles. It's not even worth thinking about that it's gonna be gone in the blink of [00:13:00] an eye that there's gonna be no more pain, no more suffering.

The Bible says even the, the previous things will be forgotten. We've all had a horrific dream that we've woken up from and we've immediately forgotten it. That's what it's gonna be like in the blink of an eye. We'll be changed. The past will be gone and all will be made right. We'll be in the manifest presence of God forever, and we will be enjoying that loving, radiant relationship that he planned for us from the very start.

And so I just walked away from this book going Flip and heck, God is H chess master. He has millions of moves ahead.

Dan: Wow, that's so amazing. And yet so many people don't picture that relationship. They don't see. God as this grand lover. Sometimes they even blame God for things that the enemy does.

And so I just wondered what you found in some of your research of people putting the enemy's work on God.

Jared: Yeah, so God, does not force anyone to do evil. It's also important to remember that the devil can't force anyone to do evil either. There is this myth in culture [00:14:00] that the devil made me do it.

That's actually a heresy for Christians. That's simply not true. Let's think about this for a minute. Let's say the devil actually made me pull the trigger and kill someone, and then God. As the judge at the final judgment says, Jared, you're a murderer. Then he's indicted the wrong person, right? The devil made me do it.

I didn't do it. The devil made me do it. Therefore, God is not. Just God is not good. God is not God. So that's simply not true. The devil can't make anyone do anything. All he can do is test and tempt and trap and plant lies in hopes that us in our free will. Make the choice to pull the trigger, make the choice to rebel, to reject God's word will, and way so the devil cannot make anyone do anything.

It's important to remember what Martin Luther said, the Christian soul actually has three enemies. The world, the flesh, the devil. If the devil did not [00:15:00] exist, the world would still be horrific. The Bible says that there's gonna be a thousand year window where the devil is locked up and the world is still gonna be disastrous.

Why? Because there's 8 billion other free wills roaming around, and 8 billion of those free wills are in rebellion in various degrees against the word will and way of God. So the devil can't make you do something, but. Your flesh, the devil, and the world contempt, and you can choose as your own free will, whether you're gonna live in obedience or in rebellion against God.

Amanda: Yeah. And that actually shows up when he tempts Jesus in the desert before Jesus' ministry began. So can you speak to anything that stood out to you in the New Testament? We talked about where, it's written about in the Old Testament. Are there any misconceptions from, the parts where he shows up in the New Testament?

Jared: Yeah, so he's basically there at the beginning. He has this thing in the middle, and then he is there at the end. He barely actually shows up in the New Testament. So [00:16:00] there's that temptation with Jesus. In the desert. Now that is a Jewish mid rash. It's a, literary story. There's a sense that it's a vision.

The middle appearance is when the Bible says that the devil actually enters Judas to betray Jesus. Kind of a key moment in the devil's history. And then of course, at the end, in the revelation, when he gets his final judgment, that's it. Beginning, middle life, Jesus. Unlike Hollywood movies, Jesus never any drama with demons around Jesus.

There's no spinning heads. There's no bleeding eyes. There's no roaring child. He basically just tells them to shut up because they won't stop saying that he's God. That like when you actually think about it, Jesus is an exorcist and he is just like, be quiet. Stop telling the truth. Like think about that for a minute.

How crazy that is, that the devil like even demons believe and tremble. That's an important thing to remember, that, terrified of their coming fate. They know that it's sealed. That die is cast the moment they decide to live in rebellion, unlike us, they [00:17:00] don't have the choice to accept Jesus to. to repent. They've made their decisions, so they're just trying to, sabotage things as they make their retreat. So yeah, the New Testament doesn't actually have the devil show up very much that said, I personally think that the most demonic activity in human history probably happened when Jesus was on the planet.

It was sort of an all hands on deck moment for Satan and company because they know, oh man, the son of God is here. And so that's why. In the New Testament, in the early church, there's just like constant demonic interaction. It's because it was such a pivotal moment for the church. And then obviously at the end of days, there is no final climactic battle like the Return of the King with Lord of the Rings. There's no, some big epic showdown, nailbiting finish. Who's gonna win with crazy music? It just says that this guy on a white horse is gonna come in. He's gonna have tattoos on his legs. It's say King of kings and Lord of Lords, and in a flash, it's over.

That's it. There's no drama about it. Jesus wins. Like lightning, it's over. So I [00:18:00] really hope with this book, guys, to help rightsize the devil and magnify the Lord to help us see, just see it. The lion of Judah, just how big he is, compared to this character one of many free wills in rebellion against Jesus.

Dan: So good. So one of the polls says 58% of US adults believe in the devil, and that's down from 68% in previous years. And then, only 56% of American believes Satan is an influential spiritual being, while only 51% believe in a God who was an influential being I'm wondering, like, what is it that.

You believe, or it feels like people are becoming less interested in the devil, or they're not believing in him as much. And so I'm just wondering did you come across any research like that and just what would be your opinion of that?

Jared: I love what CS Lewis said in, screw tape letters.

He's like. There's basically two tactics. Help people to completely overestimate the devil or completely underestimate the [00:19:00] devil. Either have them so hopped up on devil juice that they think he's sitting on their shoulder, torturing 'em at all times, or just pretend that there's no spiritual realm, that there's no, dark side, that there's no problems whatsoever.

And so that's essentially what's happened is that the church has made such a big deal to the devil that like, in most cases we don't even talk about and we're like too scared. And then in the secular world, it's so materialist, it's so humanist that the devil can't possibly exist. It's a medieval, make believe fever dream.

I have a serious, serious problem with the materialist mindset. If we actually think about what that is, basically what modern society, the pitch that they're trying to sell us is. There is no spiritual world. There's nothing spiritual, so there's no love or hate. Those are spiritual concepts.

There's no truth. That's a spiritual concept. There's only material. There's atoms, there's bacteria, there's molecules. There's quirks and quirks. Maybe strength theory, it's only physical. If that is true, [00:20:00] then there is no right or wrong. If I commit mass murder, I've just rearranged molecules. There's nothing bad about that.

In fact, you could make a strong argument that I've actually helped the planet by decreasing the surplus population. You could say that I've helped inflation because I've decreased demand for products and goods and services, so I've actually been mass murders, like good for the economy. Mass murder is like good for the planet.

That's insane to think about. The humanist mindset is wildly dangerous. What's interesting, I don't know if you guys have seen this, but in Europe, young men are starting to go back to church. It's really weird, and young people are starting to realize, oh, this bill of goods that's been sold to us by this humanist, materialist, globalist worldview, it's nonsense.

It has. No meaning, no purpose, no community, no hope, no future, and no, definitive line between right and wrong. [00:21:00] That makes life abhorrent. It makes life unlivable for most people, particularly if you don't have money to drown the existential questions in alcohol or sex or. Possessions or whatever. For most people, the materialist mindset is revealing itself for what it is, which is completely bankrupt.

Amanda: Wow. Yeah. That's so good. I just read an article not too long ago about what you just shared about, was about Gen Z coming back to church, particularly in the uk, is where the study had focused on. So, just hearing about how even schools in Ukraine, we just talked to the president of Eastern European missions and they produce Bibles in Eastern Europe, have them printed there.

And he was saying that schools in Ukraine had actually asked. To have bibles to help teach in their schools because they need that moral bedrock. So it's really interesting how for so long Europe has kind of been labeled. mean, I remember, years ago it was the post-Christian Society, but now [00:22:00] landscape, that terminology is changing, thankfully, in a good direction.

Dan: I was just thinking when I was younger, I was thinking about. Listening to music. And I, was always told, if I take this record, if I play it backwards, if I play that music backwards, it's gonna make me, like say worship Satan it's gonna make me do crazy things.

And that Satan's in the music, because used to be the worship leader I'm just wondering is there any merit? Is there any truth to any of the what is the origin of Satan? Because I think a lot of people wrestle with that. Can you tell us a little bit more about what you found in urethra for that?

Jared: Yeah. So we don't know. There's nothing definitive. You gotta remember like accuser, adversary, we don't really know his origin story. We don't know where he spends most of his time during the scriptural, narrative. And by the time it's all over, he gets tossed. And he doesn't even have a name

We don't even know his first name. We call him accuser adversary. He's essentially a non-entity by the time it's all over, it's the best way to describe Satan is that he's like a non being like, we are beam, we are people created in the image of God. We are beings.

And it's almost as if the devil becomes a [00:23:00] non being all he is is a footnote, and by the time it's all over, we've completely forgotten that he exists. Like we will not remember the devil.

Dan: Hmm.

Jared: Wow.

Dan: That's the beginning. At the end, in Revelation 12, nine, he describes him as the great dragon. Who leaves the world of strength?

What's your take on that?

Jared: Yeah, so the revelation's super interesting. I love it. So people often ask like, okay, is the revelation about the Roman Empire? Is it about like some future like AI Empire? Is it about the American Empire? What's it about? And the answer is probably yes. Yeah, it probably describes all of those things.

So if you actually do a careful reading of the Revelation, it's actually a series of five apocalyptic loops. Each one gets more and more intense, like the pangs of childbirth, and then eventually there is release at the end. It's fascinating. And so the five loops, it's a rebellion judgment, salvation cycle.

group rebel against the word will and way of Jesus. Judgment [00:24:00] comes 'cause the wages of sinner's death. It's a natural consequence. Judgment comes, but God always protects a remnant and there is salvation and they kinda rebuild the new world or order. That loop we have been stuck in that for thousands of years.

And what's interesting is even non-Christians describe this. So the world's biggest hedge fund manager, his name's Ray Dalio, this rich billionaire. Just spent his life being an economic parasite off the working poor. He calls it the big cycle. He says that nations go through this big cycle of growth and prosperity, and then stagnation and decay, and then chaos, and then a new country rises.

And he's saying right now that we're in kind of the decline of the West and China's gonna rise, and we'll see what happens with that. There's also a novel that says something like, weak men create hard times, hard times, create strong men. Strong men create good times, good times create weak men.

The cycle just continues around and around and around. Rebellion, judgment, salvation. So the revelation is just, you can take the Roman Empire and like [00:25:00] overlay revelation and it like fits decently well. You can do the same thing with the American Empire, the British Empire. There's stuff in there that like, definitely seems like.

Some sort of nuclear bomb or some sort of like robot army. Like there's definitely stuff that like can be read as futuristic as well, but there's also a ton of imagery that's like clearly speaking to Babylon and Rome and all this stuff. I would never let my children take the revelation in the literalist translation ever, ever, ever.

But the big thing to remember is like we are stuck in a cycle caused by sin, and there's only one person who can save us from it, only one person who can rescue us from it. And he is riding a white horse and he is a good God, and he is worth surrendering to because he is the king of kings and the Lord of the Lords, and he is leading an invading kingdom.

That is invincible. It's unstoppable. It's inevitable, and it's a kingdom that will have no end. The Bible says that eventually every knee will bow and [00:26:00] even Donald Trump, even Vladimir Putin, everyone in between every knee will bow every time. We'll confess that Jesus is the Christ. That's a day to look forward to, and the devil has no role in that whatsoever at all.

Dan: Sure. He does have some kind of role, we deal with evil in different parts of our own lives. And so how would you suggest a listener, how can we actively stand and resist the devil and what he's trying to bring into our life. He comes to steal, kill, and destroy.

How do we stand against that in different ways?

Jared: Yeah, so the Bible says, resist the devil and he will flee. He's so busy. There's 8 billion of us to hound, and there's so many people to accuse between the courtroom of heaven that he doesn't have a lot of time. Resist the devil and he will flee.

It's important to kind of almost see his game plan and then reverse engineer it. So his goal in a Christian's life is to just build a stronghold. So. In order to have a stronghold, he needs to get a foothold. In order to have a foothold, he needs to get the door open. So picture it like this.

You're in a house [00:27:00] and you look out the window and you see a temptation. And it's typically not gonna be something scary and repulsive and freaky. It's gonna be something that you want, that you want to let it into your life. And so you open the door, and then the devil gets his foot in the door, and then he just puts a ratchet in it and gets that door wide open.

And once he's inside, he just wants to start laying concrete, building like a pill box in your life that you'll never be able to get out. He's never gonna own the house. He can never take your house away. You belong to God, but he wants to build that stronghold in your life. So. You've gotta avoid the stronghold.

You gotta avoid the foothold. You gotta avoid open the door, which means you've gotta avoid the temptation, the fixation, the obsession. So how do you avoid temptation? Well, for a lot of it, it's just gotta be systemic. I love what Jesus prays and the Lord prays like, lead us not at the

temptation, like keep us so far from the iceberg that there's no chance it can rip up the hall of our life and sink the Titanic. Right? Just stay so far away from it. So for instance, I've never seen porn on a cell phone. ' cause I don't own a cell phone. It's like the easiest way [00:28:00] imaginable. Keep pouring out of your pocket and you just don't have porn in your pocket.

That's like really simple. We used to live in Wales. The closest Dairy Queen I think like a flight away. So like if you have a Dairy Queen addiction just move somewhere where you can't. like, are silly examples, but. For temptation.

We wanna avoid as much temptation as possible. We don't wanna see it through the windows of our life. Now, for the temptations that do come up through surprise or by accident or just, you know, they really come out of the blue, it's important to remember that even temptation is a servant of God.

You can say, God, thank you. In your sovereignty, you've allowed this temptation into my life. I'm gonna see this as an opportunity for victory. I read a great quote somewhere. It said something like, you gain the strength of every temptation you resist. It's not biblical or anything. I just love that idea.

It's a very interesting, it feels intuitively true. Like yes. When I resist temptation, I actually grow stronger as I put on the armor of God. I'm able to resist the devil better. I'm part of an invading army. I'm not gonna run outta the battlefield naked. I need to suit [00:29:00] up. I need to be battle hardened and strong so that I can fight the enemy.

So, , every temptation is a servant of God and we can judo it and actually use it to strengthen our faith, to grow us in our character and our resilience in Christ.

Dan: So. Listeners, make sure you go out and this book. When they pick up this book, what is the thing that you think will be most surprising, to them as they begin to.

Dive through the pages of it.

Jared: I would say probably the fact that God is using the devil to serve his purposes. That everything the devil does, God is, to use it to advance the kingdom of God. God uses the devil for all sorts of things. Like for instance, like God uses the devil to repulse sinners.

Like a great example of that is like the prodigal son. In the story Jesus tells. This son gets so disgusted by his rebellion and he's like, I've gotta return to the good Father. God uses the devil to harden rebellious like Pharaoh. Pharaoh in his own free will again and again and again.

Rejects the invitation, into freedom. And eventually God says, you know, that's it. I'm turning him over. I'm gonna harden his heart. [00:30:00] I'm gonna let the devil have his way with this man. And what happens? It leads the freedom for millions of Israelites, the people of God. God uses the devil to strengthen Christians.

Jesus says to Peter, the devil has asked to sift you like wheat, but once that's done, you're gonna strengthen the brothers. And Peter becomes like the OG of the New Testament church. The devil. Help Peter become Peter. Like, that's amazing. Like, good job devil. Like you did your job. Another example would be Jesus uses the devil to sanctify faithful disciples.

So Paul says. I have this thorn in the flesh. I asked God three times to take it away and he said. My Grace is made perfect in your weakness, and it's like, oh, okay. Paul's kind of a big deal. He writes like, half the new testimonies influenced billions of people, and the devil had a role in that.

That's so weird to think about. So it's just so important to remember that even the devil is God's devil and ultimately. The only things he's allowed to do are with God's permission [00:31:00] under God's sovereignty. And God has a plan to redeem it all. He's a good God. We can trust him.

And like Peter said, to whom else will we go? Only you hold the keys to eternal life. Only Jesus offers family purpose, meaning future hope, truth, all of it. It's only found in Jesus. Every other ideology is bankrupt.

Dan: Wow. So good. So we wrap up this time here. We have some fun questions for you here.

This is gonna be fun so we always like to, end with a couple.

Jared: Do I love Belize? Yes, I do. I've been to Belize City and Cocker, and I love it.

Dan: Woo. We love Belize too, and Cocker. Yeah. hard not to love either of those. So, awesome. So the book, A Devil named Lucifer again, listeners, make sure you go out and get it.

Jared. , If you had to describe Satan using only movie villains, who would you pick?

Jared: Oh, my days. What's a movie villain who is completely subservient to his master? Oh, [00:32:00] no. I'm stuck on this one because any movie where the devil is like portrayed as the devil is just like wildly wrong.

Can you guys think of a movie where the bad guy is like completely subservient to the good guy? It would be a farce. That's the reality is the movie would just be a joke.

Dan: Man, I'm thinking of not the whole movie, but at the end I'm thinking about Mario Movie where, Bower's, he's in there playing the piano inside the cage.

He's just kinda doing his own thing, but it's not quite the same thing, so, alright. Yeah, we

Jared: have to pass on that one. Sorry.

Dan: What's the strangest myth about the devil you've come across in your research?

Jared: I don't know about strangest, but definitely the big one, people thinking that 6, 6, 6 represents the devil.

The Bible's very clear that it's the number of a man. There's a lot of. Different interpretations of what that might be. It might be a code, it's of like a hexagram for Nero. It might have something to do with like Solomon, there's all sorts of theories. I talk about them in my book, but what do we know for sure?

6, 6, 6 is the number of a man. Personally, I think it represents human rebellion against [00:33:00] God. I think it's probably a lot of those things. It's human fallenness essentially. So, but yeah. 6, 6, 6 people see that number and they freak out. They think it's the devil and that's just not true.

Dan: Satan had a social media account.

What would his bio say thing,

Jared: Everything you've ever wanted.

Amanda: Hmm.

Dan: That's

Jared: a good response.

Dan: And one more, what's the weirdest Satan story you've ever heard from a church setting?

Jared: I don't know anyone, Christian or non-Christian who hasn't had some sort of experience that they would classify as spiritual, if not demonic.

Considering we live in such a materialist world, everyone has a story of the spiritual breaking through. My best friend actually runs a deliverance ministry. The stories he tells me are bonkers. I used to be a youth pastor. I've done some exorcisms, some deliverances, and like. Just wild. But the big thing to remember is that just like Jesus, they're drama free.

All power in heaven and earth has been given to us through [00:34:00] Christ. And so at the name of Jesus, every knee must bow. Every tongue has to confess, like there's so much power in the name of Christ and not in some like magical sort of way. Just some like the Holy Spirit just shows up and the devil has to obey.

I mean, I was 10 the first time, I had any sort of encounter. I talk about it in the very first chapter of my book, in regards to like a demonic experience. But yeah, they're, all a bit strange. But, but at the end of the day, like Jesus has full imperium over all of it. I.

Amanda: Amen.

Jared: So good.

Dan: A Devil named Lucifer is the book. Jared Brock, the author. So good to have you on the show, listeners. Make sure you go pick that up. how can our listeners connect with you?

Jared: If they go to jared brock.com, J-A-R-E-D-B-R-O-C k.com, they can download, my first book for free.

Watch all three of our films for free. Read the first chapter of a devil named Lucifer Free and watch the trailer for the book. So all of that is@jaredbrock.com.

Dan: Awesome listeners will have that in the show note. [00:35:00] Jared, what an honor to have you on the show. Thank you so much for digging into such a topic that not everyone touches and finding truth in the midst of a lot of different tales, a lot of different legends, a lot of different things, and revealing and delivering truth into a very.

Complicated and confusing situation. Mm-hmm. And, and topic. So, speak blessing over you over the book and we're just excited to see how God uses it to, set his people free from, wrong beliefs about it and revealing how good he is. So Awesome. Thank you for being on the show.

Jared: Yeah. Thanks for having me.

I appreciate it.

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