This is an AI transcription, apologies for any typos.

[00:00:00] Valerio Tomasso: You want to blend in. You don't want to stick out because if you stick out, you just you, you're a target.

[00:00:08] Alex Melia: Welcome to stories of Men Beneath the Surface. I'm Alex Meer. Join me as we discover what it means to be a man in the modern era.

Putting ourselves into new environments can be a daunting task for any man. It can feel a lot more stressful for a child, particularly when you don't have the emotional maturity to deal with different thoughts and feelings that might arise. Valerio grew up in a small Italian province, a place where he had friends, knew the culture, and overall enjoyed his life until one day his dad got a job in London and the family icks and moved to the uk.

Can you imagine this? He couldn't speak English, didn't know anyone, and was being thrown in the deep end at a brand new school.

[00:01:04] Valerio Tomasso: It was my second day of school and I had just come out of, uh, music class, and then I remember. Kind of like almost having Butteries in my stomach because you know, first day of school you don't know anyone. You're going to this new place. I kept being told that it would only take me six months. That was the magic number.

It would only take you six months and you speak the language. And I remember going to school thinking it'll be fine. I'll be able to somehow speak, I'll be able to somehow communicate. I will make new friends. There must be someone else that speaks Italian that wasn't, not even. A single teacher spoke Italian, uh, in the school.

What I'd done until then, because I was unfamiliar with the, with the school, the different buildings and having to move in between classes, I used to keep an eye on where my schoolmates were going. Yes, and I will follow them to make sure that I've get myself in the right class and I decide to take a sip of water.

Next thing I know, I put my head back up and I don't see any of my mates anymore. And I have a little bit of panic setting in because I'm thinking, okay, I kind of know the general direction need to be going, but I've got no idea where I actually, I'm supposed to be going. I remember whilst standing in a courtyard that, uh, there was that sort of like faint smell from the cafeteria Can.

Whipping in, and there is a list, another three buildings that I could be going into right now, but I, I dunno where I'm actually supposed to be going. And I remember looking in kind of like all directions and thinking, who can I ask as well? Because I didn't even know how to pronounce the building I was supposed to be going into, let alone knowing how to formulate the sentence, asking someone, okay, where do I need to go next?

And as I was standing there, The atmosphere went from a little bit, you know, that the background charter that you get from, uh, students being around and the background charter began dropping more and more and more. And I just stare down the road looking at all these buildings from a distance. And as time goes by, I can see less and less.

Students in the actual courtyard until the point where I was alone. And that felt very weird because I had never stood alone in such a big space without anyone talking around. So there was definitely that, uh, sort of different sensation that, uh, that you got from, uh, almost hearing the pain drops. And when I was standing there, With the silence, with no one around not knowing how to communicate, not knowing how to ask someone for help.

It cannot dawn upon me that, that I, I was really alone. I was, um, feeling that I didn't have anyone in the world. I felt that the sense of almost like despair within me, that I couldn't reach out for something so simple as asking for help or asking for direction.

If. Felt very heavy at that point. It felt heavy because I, I realized that it was going to be an uphill battle, getting to get accustomed to things, getting to learn the language, get to, to a space where I was back in Italy, you know, having friends and having a normal life. That's all I'm asking For a normal life, I knew that it was gonna be an uphill battle.

The next thing I did was to try and reach out for any sort of adults to try and find my way forward. So I found this random purpose. Person or then turned out to be a janitor. And, uh, they kindly walked me all the way to the classroom, from what I can tell. Anyway, I think they've actually explained to the teacher that I got myself lost and, uh, they've managed to kind of bring me back to this, uh, to this class where, where I was supposed to be going.

And, you know, I was a whole 15 minutes late and this is my second day of school. Uh, so I'm feeling like utterly embarrassed. So not only I feel lost, I'm also feeling embarrassed because I couldn't find my way around and. Doesn't sound like much, but to a 12 year old that that's big deal. You know?

[00:05:15] Alex Melia: Now I think that would've been really difficult. The system that is in place at a lot of schools to actually, I. Bring you in and to really integrate into the school. I don't think the resources were there if it was a government school. It sounds like it was a government school that you went to. Yeah, it's, it was, yeah.

And you were saying that, you know, that magic number of six months to become fluent in the language. How long actually was it?

[00:05:38] Valerio Tomasso: I moved to an American school after, so grade 11, probably until year 12 to feel comfortable that I spoke English and people couldn't understand me. And I mean, still today I've got an accent, but I don't care about my accent anymore.

Whereas, uh, when I was in, um, all the way up to university, I really cared about my accent. I was so self-conscious about it. I, I hated it.

[00:06:02] Alex Melia: And what's the difference in sort of mentality now with it? I, I

[00:06:06] Valerio Tomasso: think what made a huge difference was for me was, uh, volunteering. So I started volunteering for, uh, St.

John Ambulance. And, uh, in doing so, I progressed within the structure, became a unit manager, uh, did a lot of training and when I was really exposed to speaking in public and, uh, and realized that, I, I'm okay to speak the way that I do and people can still understand me and it's actually the minority that will have something to say about the way that I speak.

Yeah, the

[00:06:37] Alex Melia: majority are completely fine with it. And, and you realize actually that that's what makes you, you is your accent. But as we go through school and even in our early twenties, we feel like we want to fit in. We don't want to necessarily be different from everyone else, but this is where your, your unique.

Capabilities as a person really flourish. You know, what makes you

[00:06:56] Valerio Tomasso: you? Yeah. Correct. I think, I think you hit the nail on the head with, uh, you want to blend in. You don't want to stick out because if you stick out, you just, you, you're a target, you're a target for a bully, you're a target for, uh, someone saying something about you.

And, uh, and you don't want to be in that position as a, as a teenager.

[00:07:13] Alex Melia: How did that whole experience change you as a young boy and then into the man that you became by having such a. Such a struggle that you had to go through upping sticks, moving away from the comforts of, of, of Italy, uh, as a 12 year old boy in the uk.

Can't speak the language, don't know anybody, don't have any kind of anyone to lean on for support. Even your parents, as much as they were, I'm sure they were there for you. Even they're trying to get to grips with their own surroundings, if I mind helping you.

[00:07:46] Valerio Tomasso: I can look at the micro level and, uh, the micro level is, uh, me at school, me struggling and, uh, and me not knowing what is happening.

Right? But if, if I step back a little bit and look at the micro level, um, what, what, what I can see is that it wasn't so much perhaps a struggle about me not knowing the English or me not knowing what I was doing. It's, it's actually, it turns out that it's, It's something that every single person that experiences change, especially changing school, changes in country, uh, goes through, it's almost like this rollercoaster and, uh, you can find this, uh, there is a graph that you can find online that actually shows you, there is the height of the excitement, and then you've got like this southern realization that, um, of what is happening, you know?

She's a fan in a way. And, uh, you're having to deal with, uh, uh, with all the difficulties of being in a new place. And then you get kind of excited again 'cause you're making some new friends. And then like, you know, there's a downturn again. And it's this, basically this rollercoaster that goes up and down.

And I was shown that graph for the first time. Um, On the third school that I changed, so the school in Seitan, that was the first school. I then went to an international school in, uh, in London. And I stayed there for a year. And then my family got moved to West Africa. Wow. So we lived in, uh, in Senegal for two and a half years.

The high school counselor, because it was an American school on, I think it was on a first year. There was some sort of like college, uh, classes that they were holding as, uh, as made us aware of this, um, rollercoaster graph and the, and the explanation of kind of what to expect when new kids come to school.

So they were presenting it to us to make us aware of how other kids will feel when they come to school. And there is me sitting there thinking, Oh, that, that's how I felt that that's how I felt when I first moved country, when I moved to England. That's how I felt when I moved to first school. And that's how I felt when, when I came into this school last year and, and didn't realize at all that everyone goes through this sort of experience and everyone at, at a macro level will experience that, uh, that sort of rollercoaster and, and it was just interesting now being able to look back and think.

I wish someone had explained that to me.

[00:10:07] Alex Melia: I can, I can absolutely empathize with your situation because, you know, you do hear stories about people who, who moved to the uk. I, I've got friends for example, who might have moved to the UK when they were very young, primary school or secondary school. I think it would've been easier for you if you'd moved there in primary school as opposed to the, the, the daunting nature of, of secondary school.

But to actually go through my whole education system in English was, Obviously a lot easier for me, but I'm thinking back to leaving primary school, a primary school that I absolutely loved and then going to high school. 'cause when you're at primary school, done it what it was like for you in Italy, but you feel like it's obviously a, a much smaller group of students and you feel like as you.

Progressed through the years and you feel like you've got some sort of status as a, as a, as a boy, as a kid there. And then when you go to high school, it's, you're this like little dot amongst like a, it was like a thousand kids. I'm kind of curious that you had this, um, this difficult experience at this first school you went to in England and then you went to the international school.

How was that different? Did you, was it sort of like a sense of relief? You had of, ah, there's other kids who are also originally not from the uk, and I feel a sense of comfort or was it difficult?

[00:11:26] Valerio Tomasso: So the, the majority of kids in the international school had gone through what I gone through. So there was a, a common language that we spoke.

I'm not talking about. English or Italian is a common language, a common language of, uh, of that adaptability piece and having to go through that rollercoaster of, uh, okay, we are all in the same ride together. We all have gone through that high, those lows, and having to adapt, having to find new friends and going through that circle.

And there was almost this built-in empathy in a way. I mean, don't get me wrong, right? Like there was still like some really messed up problems in the school, but a, as a starting point, it, it just, um, it, it was a much more pleasant place to be in because kids understood that, that rollercoaster through experience and subconsciously.

Hmm.

[00:12:16] Alex Melia: How do you think life would've been different if you'd have, uh, as a boy turned into a man if you'd have stayed in Italy for that whole time?

[00:12:25] Valerio Tomasso: I, I've talked about this in, uh, in one of our podcast episode actually, because it's, uh, it's a reflection I've taken and. I don't think I would've gone to university.

I don't think. I would've, certainly, I don't think I would've had a podcast. I hated education. I hated studying. Um, I disliked subjects. Uh, I did not have encouragement from teachers when I was in Italy. And, um, I kind of got labeled as, um, This, uh, you know, you got straight A student. I was a straight C student when I was in Italy.

I was just barely kind of scraping by. Uh, I think my big plan was to eventually kind of replace my dad in, uh, in, in, in, in the workplace because, you know, Italy is quite, uh, I think the word is, uh, uh, there's a lot of nepotism. Uh, so you can get someone in, you can get for an apprenticeship route and then replace the dad in the, in the job.

So that was like the big plan that was, uh, that was for me. Uh, but I don't think I've would've gone down the education route. And, um, and I think coming to, to England was the, probably one of the most significant experiences that I've had. Um, and I need to be really grateful 'cause. My parents took a lot of sacrifices and, um, and they sacrifice the life that they had in Italy to, to help me.

I. And my sister. Mm-hmm.

[00:13:55] Alex Melia: And it's interesting is that we talked before about the struggle, you know, where would you be without this struggle? Sometimes we have to, even though we, sometimes we don't want to, but sometimes we have to be grateful for the struggle that we had because of course you didn't want a scenario where you leave all your friends in Italy and you have this sort of safe haven and you come to the UK and you.

You're having these difficulties, but it's obviously made you the man that you are today. And I think that for myself as well, think of all the difficulties I've, I've gone through. You know, it's uh, it's something to Yeah, definitely be grateful for. I think. I love that. I love that bit. When you're in that courtyard and you are.

Looking around and you don't know where to go, and you are having this big realization of, I'm lost and there's no one around to help me. Of all people to come and help you. The janitor is there. You wouldn't expect, you'd think like the head teacher or the head of year or the one of the, one of the, your school teachers or whatever the janitor is there, so at least someone was there to help you at your lowest ebb.

I,

[00:14:59] Valerio Tomasso: I think they just were so sorry for me. It's like, um, it, it, it is like when, uh, when you got a tourist right? Coming to, uh, I dunno going to Oxford. And then they're like, oh, can you show me what, uh, what a big university that is really famous is? And then the local Oxford person turn around and be like, it's all around you.

You just take pity on the, on the people. 'cause they don't, they don't really know what, uh, where they are. And, uh, I think. The janitor took pity on me and, uh, although they could have just like fought me off and, uh, said, you know, just, just go in that direction and you'll find it. It was really kind of them to just take the time to walk me all the way to the class and, uh, and show me where the class was.

[00:15:42] Alex Melia: I. Well, where would you have been if the janitor wasn't age? You'd just been stood there in, in the courtyard. And it's different because I feel like when you're at primary school, I think you would get a lot more guidance and help, but when there's just so many kids in a high school, you could have literally just been stood there for ages until, until the the, the class finished.

All the classes finished and all the kids came out again. Yeah,

[00:16:02] Valerio Tomasso: exactly. And you know that that was an option realistically. But then there was also the part of me that was terrified about not showing up for class because I thought I was gonna get told off for not showing up. And how am I going to explain that I got lost?

And they

[00:16:16] Alex Melia: might think that you were. Uh, we used to say the word wagging. It basically truanting, I dunno if you've heard those, uh, like truanting, like not going to the class basically, or, or going home or, or messing around or whatever. So we say, oh, are you wagging it today? Are you not going to the class?

So they might have thought that you were doing something illegitimately outside instead of going to the class. Exactly.

[00:16:39] Valerio Tomasso: And, and I had that fear as well, rushing through my, through my mind and, uh, of course, Going along with, uh, with everything else that I was feeling about my experience. So

[00:16:49] Alex Melia: you, you've kind of, you've come to this school in England, you didn't have a pleasant experience.

You go to the international school and you feel this, ah, this sort of real, uh, relief that there's other kids who've gone through this emotional journey that you described before. So that was over. It sounds like it was an overall positive experience and then you have to leave that. How did you feel about having to leave those friends and, and leave this sort of.

Safe haven, uh, perhaps, you know, to, to move to, not just move to another school, but leave the uk, leave the continent, and go to Africa of all places.

[00:17:22] Valerio Tomasso: It was, uh, heartbreaking, absolutely heartbreaking. I had made some really good friends, uh, that I enjoyed spending time with, and I remember that, uh, the school is quite small, right?

So the, the International School of London is, um, it's probably got a few hundred students, but it's not that big. And I remember standing in the, kind of like the small entrance courtyard of the school on my last day at school, and I was sobbing. Like a child because I knew that I wasn't gonna see those friends again.

'cause of course I was gonna be moving miles away and uh, I couldn't exactly afford to jump on a plane and go see my friends. Yeah. Did

[00:18:05] Alex Melia: you have any sort of resistance to going, like, you're at that age, what, 16, 17? You're at that age where you go, you know what? I, I, I, I'm not going, I'm staying here. Or did, or did you just kind of a agree with whatever your parents decided.

So

[00:18:19] Valerio Tomasso: I, I agreed with when my parents decided, and it, it was a agreement outta necessity because there was no option of staying in England. Um, the only other option was to go back to Italy, but I didn't feel like I could fit in back into. Into going to a state school in Italy because I didn't feel like I was as supported as I was in an international school.

So it was that sort of agreement. But of course I also had my first girlfriend at the time and, uh, I had all of these friends and, uh, part of me was, was kinda like shredding away because I was in pain. Of, uh, of leaving all those people behind, and I had this old feeling about being alone again and, uh, having to start from scratch again.

[00:19:08] Alex Melia: This episode made me reflect a lot because it reminded me of moving primary schools at the age of seven. That was a hugely disruptive experience for me, but I can't imagine the isolation that Valeria must have experienced of not being able to speak the language, not knowing his way around, or having any friends.

I. I moved just two miles down the road and it was a really scary experience. But to move country would've been on a whole other level. This obviously happened a long time ago to Valeria in the nineties, but I don't think it would be a jump to suggest that a similar experience might happen to a little boy today.

Especially moving to a small, less metropolitan place where you're less likely to encounter people with different accents, cultures, and religions. Where I went to school, for instance, which is a small town called Tilsly in Greater Manchester. It's difficult to remember hardly any other students who hadn't grown up in the uk er definitely would've felt singled out based on his accent.

So what can we do as men to improve people's experience when moving to Britain? As classmates, teachers, and colleagues, and how does this sense of disruption and othering shape their experiences on the path of their way to becoming a man?