So Jake, you built your life and career with your hands and your body mastering

the physical demands of carpentry.

When did you first understand that your body was no longer

able to sustain that work?

And what was the most difficult realization you faced about that shift?

I think the.

Biggest realization was the fact that it was no longer viable to be on the tools.

and as hard as it is mentally, um, having to transition to something else,

after, you know, investing time and money in educating yourself, whether

it's through your apprenticeship or outside of that, and the financial

outlay for tooling and equipment, sort of just sits around collecting dust now.

It definitely is and was and still is, a hard transition.

And not being on site with a camaraderie and you know, the general, an antics

on site, whether it's banter or, being around a good crew every day, enjoying

working with your hands, I guess.

so that's still plays a part in my mind.

And I'm sure, Brad, you may relate with your recent injuries or.

As well.

it's actually kind of a good combination.

as soon as you asked answer that question, I'm like, oh, Brad's got the same story.

Yeah.

So it's probably interesting to get your take on that.

We'll just fuck off and we'll just go, yeah, let's just go.

I'll get another meeting.

Mine's a

little different 'cause I can still work in a limited capacity.

Yeah.

But I spent two hours on a jackhammer the other day and

like I'm still paying for it.

Yeah.

Now, you know, so it's.

The realization for me that this is like very limited and

there's a time in the very near future that I have to pack it in.

Yeah, it's

does carpentry, young man's game or young person's game.

I,

I wanna add to this for a sec too, because I had a very similar, well,

not similar experience, but I had a similar injury which, well, a

similar result in injury that kind of took me off the tools as well.

'cause your wrist got fucked from a motorbike riding accident.

Yeah, I did.

Mine being a CrossFit wanker.

And, I had to get a wrist.

Did you throw the weight down really hard?

Yeah, I, I got a, I had a wrist reconstruction and at the time it

actually forced me off the tools.

Yeah.

Which, at my particular point in my business, it was a real blessing.

'cause I was really struggling to get off.

I'm

the same.

My back fucked up.

I was showing the tools though, so I was like, sweet.

Yeah.

See, I was a lot better than you were.

So

I'm actually not, and do you know what that door handles

something like I would've done.

And, and just for the record, I'm a lot better Car Parker than Matt.

I've just pulled into the expo here and he has hung his ass of his car

about a meter into the car park, which I've then parked in front of him.

So I'm now sticking out a meter in.

One thing

I'm give him credit for though, is it's drawing attention

to the card, which is sign.

Yeah, so realistically it's actually a marketing employee.

Well,

I actually also think that it's a classic, uh, example of how autonomous

driving is impacting our real driving.

'cause you drive a Tesla most of the time usually.

Yeah.

And I don't have it today, so I just,

I actually had to drive.

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

Okay.

Um, and my heated seats weren't warm when I got in the car and

the steering wheel wasn't heated.

And yeah.

Two, I could climate control before I got in the car when I was day two degrees.

Two degrees inside the length.

So it really makes you feel alive, Jake.

For sure.

I want to go back.

So you are now notorious tools.

I want to go back 'cause we.

Have a history before Notorious tools.

Yep.

So, but I wanna take you back to just before we started

talking and what were you doing?

You're a carpentry apprentice.

Yeah.

So can, can I also ask what do you identify as in terms of what

exactly are you still a carpenter?

I know as a kind of a loaded question in this current, I know where you

are going with this.

So like what if someone comes to you now and what do they say?

What's your job title?

I would say I'm formally a carpenter because I'm no longer.

Actively on the tools.

Yes.

I still dabble a little bit here and there and renos in my

own house and things like that.

But

do you still think you're a carpenter

at

heart?

Yeah, because I think we were talking with Justin, who, Justin O'Connor, who's,

who's transitioned outta being a builder.

He goes, he goes, I'm a builder.

Yeah.

Like, I identify as a builder.

I'm al I will always be a builder.

No matter what I do, I'll always be a builder.

And I reckon, I

thought you were asking for his pronouns.

I said, please, I tell you what, that's gonna make the best reel.

I swear to God, which is why I wanted it.

But I, I, I,

I genuinely feel like I'm.

I still, if someone says, what do you do?

I'll go, I'm a carpenter.

Yeah.

But I now run a building, building business.

Yeah.

See, and that's the thing, as well as being a carpenter, I've had

notorious tools for many years, so I was still an apprentice at the time.

so I still, yeah.

I would still say to people that I'm, yeah.

Either a carpenter or a formerly a carpenter.

Yeah.

but it's definitely what I would go to rather than I'm a

sales rep or I sell product.

Like it's always carpentry first.

I think something.

Uh, being about a carpenter that makes people proud.

Yeah.

I don't, I don't know, like if you're a joiner or if you're a plumber, people say,

I'm a plumber.

Like, I think it's only carpenters.

People go, I'm a carpenter.

I, I've, I've a slightly kind of off topic thing, so, I'm good mates

with Ben Russ from Good Biogas.

Yeah.

And he's friends with, Josh Teskey from the Teskey Brothers.

Yeah.

So Josh is a plumber by trade.

Yeah.

And Ben always says that, Josh.

Always tells people he's a plumber.

He's so proud to be a plumber.

And yeah, he's, he's, he's part of the testy brother.

He's off traveling Europe at the moment.

Yeah.

But he's a plumber.

He goes, I'm a plumber.

And I'm like, I love that you have the voice of

an angel.

He's got the voice of an angel too.

Yeah.

So, so go back to, sorry, we can go off topic so far.

Sidetrack.

So you, you're an apprentice, you're a carpentry.

And then we first met How

so?

I was a bit fed up with where I was at the time with who I was employed with.

and I stumbled across Maddie through socials, but also

through freshman or, Jack.

I've been supplying Jack for a while now, and uh, one day we got talking.

Obviously he was doing some of your projects and some of your, carpentry

work and then we met for coffee and it wasn't long after that that I jumped

on board with Maddie and started working for Carl and Constructions.

As a, as an

apprentice or No, as a qualified.

As a newly qualified.

Like just

qualified.

Yeah.

Why I wanted to bring this up is.

And you probably too, get it a lot at the moment.

Like, I just wanna work for someone who cares.

I wanna do work on projects that mean something.

But they, these people, I feel expect for people to go to them.

Where, where I wanna get out with Jake is, Jake actually got off his ass.

He comes to my open days, started messaging me through social

media, chatting, asking, learning questions, and then the opportunity

came where I needed someone.

I'm like, I got, I know the perfect person.

Mm. So he put himself in the position too.

Actually work on, we'll say better buildings.

Yeah.

I've got the same at the moment.

Like I've got a carpenter who's subbing into me part-time when I need a hand.

And yeah, when he posted working on my jobs, he, he got hit up by a few

people, like, oh, how'd you end up there?

And yeah, he's just consistently slid in my dms, Hey, let

me know if you need a hand.

Let me know if you need a hand.

Let me know if you need hand.

And action it though.

Don't

just say it, actually action it and do it.

Yeah.

I think he showed up

with where the industry's at at the moment is like Matty said.

Everyone's expecting a handout and just to be given, well, I shouldn't

generalize and say everyone, but a lot of people just expect to be given the

world and not have to do much in return.

Whereas with Matty, I'd, at the time, I was actually moving house, my partner

and I bought our own home and I had a couple of weeks leave from the employment

I was with, so I can move house.

And then I ended up doing, I think it was a week with Matty, on site, um, as a

trial period and then didn't look back.

We're obviously all come from the, that sort of better building practice.

Once you go down that rabbit hole, there's a hell of a lot to unlearn, but even

more to learn and sort of start again.

Do you feel that because you'd learn, we'll call it an old school way.

Yep.

Do you think that benefited you

long term?

Yes and no.

I think, look, don't get me wrong, I've worked for a few different bosses in the

construction industry and I think learning from different people is a good thing.

Um, and I know we've spoken about that recently, Matt, because everyone

does things sort of differently.

So I'm not gonna say that where I started wasn't a good thing.

I think it gave me a good understanding of general construction.

in terms of better building, I think, you really need to unlearn some

of the stuff that you, I think it

also crystallizes the reason why you've decided to make the move

into better building as well.

I mean, I absolutely, I, I had a realization, a couple of years ago

when we were doing an extension to our.

A home that we sold a year and a half ago.

we did a little extension, to a bathroom, a little pop out at the back.

And as I was peeling back the Cladding it was foil backed saing.

Yeah.

With metal cladding screwed directly over the top of the foil backed saing and all

I, I thought I was doing, you know, a good thing by putting noggins every 600

and I'm, and I'm peeling it back and I'm like far out, geez, we've come a long way.

And this was right and I middle, you know, middle of doing like

a sips extension to my house.

So I was just like wildly worlds apart of, of what, how I used to do things.

But it's an evolution.

Yeah, absolutely.

And I think I've, I've come from the format we did a lot of renos with

the builders with, and I think that really opened my eyes in terms of

like exactly what you just said of old practices are so obsolete now.

Like opening up walls and corners are always rolled out.

Like yeah, your corner stu are always cooked.

Yeah.

'cause it's direct fix cladding, the, the cycling's not great or around

windows, like the key elements that we all know how to deal with now.

Um, with appropriate techniques and methods that lot of the rest of the world

have been doing it for many, many years.

Like, it is not as, if the information wasn't there a few

years ago, it wasn't as accessible.

Don't get me wrong, but people have been using brands like Pro

Climber for how many years now?

Yeah.

Well, I think, I mean, I've been in the industry for show age

now, probably 20 plus years.

You're probably not too far off that as well.

Yeah, I think I've like, had my own business for about 10 years now,

so yeah, probably, probably around 15 years I've been in the game

and I kind of feel like I've always been around good builders.

Yeah.

And but good builders that aren't educated in better building practices, like, yeah.

What do you define as a good builder?

This is actually a really interesting concept.

Well, you

know, actually as I was, the words were coming outta my mouth.

I was like thinking about the builders I used to work for like the quality,

like the, you know, I remember one builder, like when you're framing.

He's like, I don't want to see a proud nail.

Yeah.

Like, you've gotta punch, you've gotta punch in tool belt.

you go and knock that.

If you, if you are skew nailing studs, get your fucking punch out and punch it.

And like it's those little things that.

Like, were really important to my learning now.

Yeah.

We were then wrapping the house in whatever, foil back insulation.

You just knock on those little things and keep going.

And, and yeah.

And sorry, fallback, um, sation and insulation.

You know, we weren't, we weren't insulating our corners local also, like

the cutouts around PowerPoints, for example.

You just rip it out for Yeah,

it's, but, but I would consider the quality of the builders that I was

working for to be really high standard.

Yeah, like the workmanship.

The workmanship.

Yeah.

I mean you've got your experience of working on, you know, shit builds

with shit builders, with shit quality.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And, but then I also did my apprenticeship with a guy who incredibly skilled.

Yeah.

You know, skilled is the term.

I think.

Yeah.

He did a really good job and the best that he possibly could do with what we

had or what we were, the knowledge he had.

Yeah.

What we were given.

Um.

But yeah, it's like you hear this conversation sometimes, you know,

and people are like, I think we've had it on another podcast

where people are like, well, why don't you just do it differently?

But if you are not the one funding the project or steering the

ship, it's sometimes very hard.

Yeah.

I think that's a completely different conversation.

Budget's always gonna be a aluminum factor on how far you can go with the project.

Yeah.

But I think one thing that I've always said and will continue

to say is that as the client, I think we need to look at options.

Instead of going with that fancy zip tap, initially, we need to look at maybe

putting in a provision for down the line and investing your money into things

that are gonna make a massive difference.

Yep.

And that you can't access later down the track.

So whether it's your membrane, whether it's, something you like, insulation or

something like that, that you do, it is?

it's a thermal envelope.

A hundred percent.

So, so we, our narrative with clients is we minimum that we're gonna give

you is a high quality thermal envelope.

What you clad it with, what you fit it out with is gonna be whatever

you that determines your budget.

Whatever your budget is exactly right though.

But our minimum is gonna be a high performing thermal envelope and that

10 minimum standard H HIV don't,

don't you hate it when people, and we'll use pro climber as an example,

when they're someone or client or designers, like, oh, we just couldn't

get, get that into the project yet.

They've got like a $1.4 million budget.

Yeah.

And you're like, can you explain how you didn't get that in?

Yeah, I did.

It doesn't, it doesn't make sense.

Did you shop, that's

probably more frustrating to see stuff like that used on projects

and not used well, it's just been like a tick box upsell.

Yeah.

We put it on, but, and it's not really doing its intended

purpose.

I was, I was watching, um, uh, a show on a b, c last night, which wasn't

grand design, but it was a building.

Block.

Let's just, let's just say it was a restoration program.

And I love, I love watching that show.

And it's weird

how you go home and watch building shift.

I love it.

I love it.

But like they're doing, they're renovating this beautiful home in the Adelaide

Hills, like this gorgeous sandstone home.

It was built, it is a school actually in the 18 hundreds stripping the roof

off and then they're putting sucking on it, around the walls on the roof.

And I'm like, this is 2023.

And I almost felt like picking up the phone saying, Jess.

Where the fuck were you when that project was being built?

Because it's just around the corner.

Like that should have a membrane on it.

Like it's 2023.

Yeah.

And or don't touch it at all.

Or don't touch it or don't, don't touch it all.

Don't touch it.

Yeah.

I went to look at a house for potential clients to purchase him Mount Masson

yesterday afternoon, and the house was built in the early eighties.

Yeah.

To replace the house that burnt down Ash Wednesday.

Oh yeah.

And the house has not been touched since like 95-year-old.

Existing owners still living there.

Wow.

Mm-hmm.

The house has not been touched.

It's been really well maintained.

You know, everything's always kept clean, you know, whatever.

And the biggest thing I said to him was like, just be really

careful of what you do here is gonna have a huge knock on effect.

Mm-hmm.

You know, the house has lasted perfectly from 84 till now.

Yep.

And when you start doing little things like insulating Yeah.

Insulating cavities that have, like, they had a, um.

Like a shed that had, it wasn't even like the foil back saing.

It was like legitimate, like thick aluminum sheet on a, like CL.

Yeah, like super old.

Like it was obviously done in the eighties, but you know,

open tail rafters at the end.

So much airflow, like condensation wouldn't even be a factor.

Just run the heater all, but they're like, oh, we want to turn this into

a place that people could stay.

Okay, cool.

So you're gonna insulate in the bays, line the ceiling inside,

and then introduce people sleeping in there like you're gonna.

This joint so fast and they were like, oh, you know, hadn't even considered it.

Which most people don't.

They just think, oh, we'll make a few slight improvements

and don't understand that.

It doesn't help like the government about to bring in, uh, a again,

like an insulation scheme for Ex Victoria about we're gonna

insulate people's existing ceilings.

Yeah.

And it's like, well are

they didn't bring that back in.

Yeah.

They're bringing it for just ceilings.

Like what happens here?

And I know we are kinda getting off topic, so I wanna get back to Jake talking

about where he's got to with his work.

But what happens when we have moisture issues because we introduced this,

that now doesn't comply with the NCC, but people have access a government

fund because it is gonna happen.

Yeah.

So there's a

liability forward with the

government.

That not wouldn.

Does government ever take responsibility

for anything though?

But realistically, no.

But people will have saved a few thousand bucks on some energy bills

and getting insulation in and caused a hundred thousand dollars worth of

damage to their buildings and, and the health issues that come from that.

and it's, it is a much bigger thing to unpack you.

It's probably something that we'd love to get Cam involved in.

But you, you're changing the building physics.

Yeah.

Like the Absolutely.

The physics of the buildings completely changed.

So going back anyway to, back to you Jake, so you had a.

Was it a workplace injury?

Just fi you started working for, it wasn't workplace injury with me.

So it was pre, the initial injury was pre Maddy.

initially it wasn't that bad.

I, you know, went to the doctor was on light duties for, I

think it was a couple weeks.

And what did you do?

we were lifting up a beam and an apprentice and I were

lifting up a beam, up a ladder.

it was six, seven meters long.

and he called something out and I didn't hear him.

And because we were already lifting, all I did was turn my head.

To try and, you know, call out and go, Hey, sorry, what'd you say?

And my back just went, just upper ladder, just gone.

Wow.

Um, initially with this disc or, yeah, yeah, yeah.

A couple of discs lowered my, my lower disc on the nerve.

I still have sciatica all the time.

but yeah, so the first time I was all right, light duties for a bit.

Couldn't wear an hour belt or anything like that.

And then the second time it went, I think it was like a Saturday

or something you were doing,

I was working you.

Yeah.

So was working, I wasn't on the tools.

a Saturday, I'm pretty sure.

Maybe a Sunday.

And it just went again, like, and I wasn't doing anything strenuous.

I was just at home.

And that time it really played havoc.

Like I was off work for, what was it, three months?

Yeah.

Oh, more.

I think so.

At the same time my brother actually did something.

Yeah.

We went and saw Billy Jolt, the M cg, and he then.

Called mum in the middle of the night being like, I can't move.

Yeah.

And he, nothing happened.

It just went.

And so let's

just take a moment for a second and just acknowledge how good Billy Joel is.

Yeah.

I fucking loved my mate.

It was insane.

But going, but what happened is like, and watching him go through

it, and I'd seen he was kind of like.

More advanced.

He just, he was like 10 weeks ahead of you where you were at.

Yeah.

But watching him go through it and I then experiencing Jake, like you

could see it just like eating away that he could not do anything.

Yeah.

And then trying to access work cover.

Oh

mate, that was a absolute nightmare.

Like I don't get me wrong, I've always been pretty financially

savvy and have a backing.

Like there's no problem with that, but it's just like something that should be

accessible and accessible fairly quickly.

Being off work for three, four months, still having mortgage bills to pay.

Couldn't really do much.

Even for Notorious, because I couldn't lift boxes.

Like I couldn't do a hell of a lot.

They didn't pay you for like months work cover, yeah.

Months.

Yeah.

And it was like an

actual work cover issue.

Like it was a proper, full claim.

I had all the, all the supporting documents, scans, everything.

yeah, hospital for a couple of nights.

I didn't do anything.

They couldn't do anything.

They sent me home surgery.

No, I avoided it.

Yeah, just.

Almost to had to get injections.

Yeah.

but we went down more of like a physio and osteo approach.

Yeah.

And then jumping in the pool and saunas and things really helped.

Yeah.

so I'm glad that that could be avoided, at least for now.

Long term.

Who knows?

It may come a day where it needs to happen, but the longer

that I can avoid it, I will.

Did you have income protection?

No.

Okay.

Because I was always employed at the same time, it was never something

that really crossed my mind.

So my biggest advice

to anyone that is a trades person.

Yeah.

Qualified, whether you're employed or not, and you are on the tools,

you should have income protection.

Yeah.

100%. You are.

It's a fully tax deductible amount.

It's not a crazy amount of money.

Yeah.

And it will cover you for anything you do, whether that's playing

sport, um, going the gym, just being, drunk on a weekend and.

Yeah.

Falling over because your, your job is physical.

It's not like if you hurt it and you're in office and like me and we can

come and just continue on our laptop.

Yeah.

As a trader, you need to have that income protection.

It's so damn important.

And the

earlier you take it out, the lower your premium are.

Yeah.

'cause you are less risky.

Did you have it with your arm?

I've got it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And did it help you when you broke your arm?

No.

'cause mine was covered by TAC and you can't claim both multiple things.

We're on the top of insurance.

Well, it's a bit cooked because it's like you've got TAC.

Obviously I employ myself 'cause I'm a company structure, so then I pay my own

work cover and my own income protection.

And they all wanna fight.

They all wanna not pay it.

So they all argue with each other and then that just only hurts you.

Yeah.

So you gotta, you really gotta sit down and work out what's the best benefit.

And for me it was like going down TAC.

'cause obviously they covered them all my medical and not just wages,

which is the biggest thing for me.

And you are with TAC, you went on the road though, or it doesn't matter.

No, I was on

a marked road.

Yeah.

It was in the Bush.

If you're on your dirt bike and you are fully registered, the

bike's registered, you got license.

TAC will cover as long as it's marked.

As long as it's not a single trail, you can be out in the bush.

It's not a single trail.

You're fine.

That will, that will get you AirVac out if they need to.

And it doesn't cost you any.

It's the same like when I go out riding as.

Um, while also everyone should have ambulance.

Oh, a hundred percent.

That is, that is the cheapest thing.

Is it 54 bucks?

It's next to nothing.

Yeah.

Like I paid like the five year or 10 year one.

It was like couple hundred

bucks.

I think mine, mine comes outta my private health.

Yeah.

The other thing I just,

I think that mine does too.

I just double up.

I'm like, I just fucking don't.

And I also think we should be giving to people like that.

Yep.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

They do incredible work.

They get no funding.

The other thing I wanna touch on quickly is for any trade, I

don't care who it is, apprentice or not, please get to insurance.

a must.

Like my canopy got done on the weekend.

50 seconds.

Yeah, I saw what,

that's all it takes.

50 seconds.

What'd they take?

Everything.

They, I didn't have tools in there, I just had stocks.

I'm lucky, like extremely lucky.

But no padlock or handle is gonna stop it.

Like they didn't even need to cut the padlock.

They didn't need to touch the handle.

They just jimmied it open.

Wow.

Two, two damaged handles.

And they're in like literally 50 seconds.

I've got it on film.

I've had mine done when I was three times.

Have you guys I've,

yeah.

Well, personally, no.

But um, this is one of my trucks has been done before.

Yeah.

No.

' cause I live in

the middle of nowhere and park in a shed and, but even then, stay

far away from people then like for anyone, like, it doesn't matter if

you're rural, whether you're Metro Melbourne, like just get it please.

It's again, it's a tax write off.

Yeah.

It's not worth the headache of having to replace, even if it's

only a couple thousand dollars, your insurance is gonna be cheaper than it.

Yeah.

So my brother, he's a plumber and he's got contracts to a lot of the hospitals.

So he gets call outs for late at night, constantly being followed by

truck's home because they know he's going home and he's going to sleep.

So they'll follow him and he'll have to take long roads.

He's had jobs where he's literally like dropped in a toilet into

the house, gone in, come out.

He's like 50, 60 seconds.

Every bang, ransack.

He sees him driving off, cleared the car out.

Look what happened to your plumber cam.

Yeah, yeah.

His car was out the front.

So, because

this is actually an awesome story.

so we're at my project in West Footscray and I get a call from

Mark, my project manager, being like.

Where'd you put Cam's car?

I'm like, what are you talking about?

And Cam's like, where have you put me car?

Like, I know you'd play this sick game.

What have you done with it?

and then I'm like, cam, I'm not fucking with you this time.

What are you talking about?

This is like full on you.

Yeah.

So what had actually happened, they'd walked inside, grabbed his car, keys,

come out, and then just drove his car off.

Just gone.

They actually walked, work card

gone.

And there was like, this was a day where it was like a chaos on site.

'cause I hate chaos on site.

So I was like, I'm not going there.

There's too many trades.

Yeah.

Someone had just walked in, grabbed his car keys and started

playing around with him and,

oh, to see whose car it was.

Yeah.

And then just bang, drive off, drove off with it, where's my keys?

And then found the car.

So they obviously the police come and stuff.

They found the car a few months later.

And, all these tools are gone.

There's a whole set of new tools in there of diff someone else's and the

police are like, well, we don't know who it is, so it's all yours now.

So hang on.

so there was, they found the car with tools in it.

yeah, but it was different tools from someone else.

So it was all these new demo source and stuff.

So he is like, he lost all these tools, but he's got all these

brand new different tools now.

Oh my

goodness.

That's, and with the amount of people I talk to in the industry,

Every day like I'm seeing people, cars stolen, you'd stolen, trailer stolen.

It's so sad.

Yeah, I know guys that have had like their factories broken

into, trucks stolen out of.

A locked up absolutely factory.

It happens every day.

One guy I know to, to anyone listening,

sanctum homes owns no tools.

I, I own a laptop.

Yeah, you can steal my iPad.

But what shits me is it the people who are stealing the tools, the problem or

the fuck which the buying them stolen.

because I reckon the people buying stolen on tools, you are the scum of the earth.

It's, that's creating the market.

Yeah.

You are the, there's no market and no way or way to

sell it.

There's no demand.

There's no supply.

Like if, if, if I have strict instruction with my team that if you have anyone

coming on site to sell your stolen tools.

Hold them down.

Call the police.

You have, like, I've, I don't care what you do to them

because I just think it's scum.

Do

people actually do that?

Come to site?

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

I was on site yesterday and someone was saying they had someone offering a

hammer drill for like a hundred bucks.

A brand new, like almost brand new My kid Hammer drill.

What?

Yeah.

When, when I was an apprentice, one of the kids had his tools stolen on site.

The next day, this same junkie come back trying to sell his

same tools back to the kid.

He just didn't know where he was.

it's.

A huge problem.

And I feel sorry for the police 'cause there's nothing they can do either.

Like they catch these people half the time, but they, they're

this big ringleaders, um, oh, you can speak to Ned from NWW.

Yeah.

He had his tool stolen.

He had like a tracker in there, knew where it was.

He's telling the police, the police, like, we actually can't do anything.

So he went with his, like all his mates knocked on the door and then they're

like, he's like, I want my tools back.

And he took, got his tools and not everywhere.

Yeah.

Some of it wasn't there.

Some of it was already sold, sold or whatever, but.

It's daily anyway.

Yeah.

So, so now you've transitioned, geez, we've gone off track

to come back on track.

Yeah.

We've gone on tangents.

Yeah.

So, so you're us four together.

So

you, you identify as a carpenter now you've transitioned into a tool cell.

Yeah.

And what is also general construction hardware?

What is notorious tools?

So initially it started off with power tool accessories, so like

blades and things like that.

And over time it eventuated into having opportunity to supply fixing fasteners.

Whereas now there's probably 10 or so brands, of 60,000 items throughout

the brands I arrange, and that's continually growing every day.

a lot of work going on behind the scenes on the website.

Understand that a lot of my customers are still trades that also on the tools.

the convenience of ordering late at night is priority at the moment,

to just streamline the process because at the end of the day.

I know exactly how, how much is going on during the day.

The last thing you wanna do is be sitting down trying to order fixings Yeah.

During the workday.

So you

actually don't wanna pop into a hardware store half the time.

Oh.

You just wanted to go to someone direct like you that

cares and you just like, well,

like for me, like my local hardware store, very ordinary.

Mm-hmm.

they never have any stock of anything that you need.

And for me the, it's an hour round trip to go to either the big green shed.

Or you know, a total tools or a big green check.

So now I just order everything and Jake sends it to my house.

Straight to his door.

But the other thing too is that even if you send an apprentice, right?

I can, I know this from being on site, the hardware store may be 15 minutes away.

Yeah.

But that trip very quickly turns into an hour, an hour and a

half another, the scenic route.

Yeah, absolutely.

And then they're doling around in, in store and I've

had some builders say, yeah.

And then they've come back and they've bought the wrong

product from the hardware.

So they've gotta go back and get the right screw or whatever.

It, I always tell my team, no matter where the hardware is, it's

always cheaper to get a delivery.

A hundred percent.

Yeah.

Like, whatever it is, it's always cheaper because it's, it's like $10.

You're like, fuck, just, it's you leaving.

Yep.

It's productivity offsite start.

So it's, it's, it's another set of hands gone.

It's a 15 minutes before, can you think, I'm gotta go and get in the car and

then it's a 15 minute when you get back.

Like it's a hundred percent.

If any of my team are listening, always deliveries.

Deliveries or what we do a lot of time is if someone's going.

Ask the rest, the team, they don't need anything.

Yeah.

And go on the way through or after work.

They usually can wait till later that day a lot of the time.

Yep.

Yeah.

And the thing with, so what I've done is I've got fixed price freight

for pretty much everything online.

it's 15 bucks authority to leave at your door anywhere in the country.

It's nationally.

It doesn't matter where 15

bucks, there's

like, you, you can't leave home and go to a hardware store, 15 bucks,

20 bucks if it's signature required.

The only time that changes currently is if it's dangerous goods because

it costs an absolute fortune.

So your low expenditure, flexible foams.

Yeah.

I,

I declare everything.

I'm not in the game to not declare something.

'cause I don't want something to go wrong.

Yeah.

And then be liable.

it's not worth it.

So that's the only times it changes.

Yep.

but for 15 bucks I think it's a no-brainer really.

That's a

zero brainer.

Yeah.

So

what sort of stuff do you supply?

Yeah, so anything from, like I said, general construction hardware, so

whether it's joy hangers, hoop pine, all that sort of general hardware.

through to collated flooring screws for.

screwing down yellow tongue.

Um, ty screws are a big one at the moment, and then some new

products that have been released.

So there's some new framing Batten screws that are out, have

been really popular already.

Um, and I actually got to demo them with your guys on site.

Um, yeah, he, Jay keeps

asking me, can I show you?

And I'm like, don't.

Made straight to Rory.

I'm not, I'm not gonna screw my laptop down, am I?

Rory just goes, what's a Batten scream?

I, you know what?

You're meant to be the bad carpenter out of the four us.

I'm joking.

You know what's, you should see the gates that I made on the weekend.

They are primo looking thing

gone over to Simpson's Strong Tie Simpson.

I love all the Simpson stuff.

I'm a massive fan.

I meant Simpson.

It's unreal.

Yeah.

Range is insane too.

Like they don't just do like your typical screws, like obviously

SPACs have a, a good range as well, but Simpson cover off things from

concrete anchoring right through to stud tie screws is a massive one.

but they're innovating the market.

They've been around for many, many years.

All of their bracket.

Well, a lot of their brackets and components are actually

thicker than standard.

Yeah.

And there's a similar price point to a standard hangar that you'll get.

So,

and they're very open to, I've actually had like one of their

development guys from Yeah.

San Francisco out to job site here when he was in Australia.

And they're, they're really open to talking to people in the industry and also

giving you all that technical support.

Yeah.

So that if you are like going to an engineer saying, Hey, can we do.

This, this and this.

The data's there.

I've

also looped in some of this, like the strong engineer with Err.

Yeah.

so I was dealing with the guys for some portal frame kits and bits and pieces.

So I was able to supply the kits.

We could, we, they could nut out details.

So there was a couple of jobs that had some tricky details, so that

had to change bits and pieces.

but yeah, the Simpson guys are more than happy.

To jump in and help you out.

Yeah, so I think there's two things there.

One, if with these strong ties, or actually three things, if you

are still using like hoop pine to wrap Oh man, under a frame.

I feel like you just, just use the strong ties.

Two as an, if you're an engineer, you should just have

this in your general notes.

'cause you have five pages of general notes.

One little line extra won't hurt.

Um, but three, I think it's important if you are a builder or carpenter,

it's not on the general notes.

I have had problems in the past where building surveyors or inspectors

like, no, we can't pass 'em.

It's not on the note.

So do have that conversation early.

It goes back to what we bang on about all the time.

Documentation, other thing, collaboration.

Talk about it.

Simpson have all the documentation and if there's a problem with engineers,

they are the project engineers.

The strong engineer will help get that across the line.

Yeah.

Okay.

As much as they can.

Obviously they're bound, by certain things, but all, they're all documented.

All the data's there and if anyone's got questions, yell

out, I'm more than happy to help.

Outside of that, right through to if it's chemical anchoring, concrete anchoring.

SDWS is obviously the strong tie screws, but icons saw massive range, whether it's

from general construction, so standard Batten screws, right through to like the

big commercialized stuff, even if it's into the tunnel and bits and pieces.

So, Maxim I just recently brought on, so all your window

packers and bits and pieces.

You've got wind angle window packers now too.

Yeah, they're, they're in the works.

so anyone running a salon grade, I've got something in.

On the works.

do you run Seal on grade?

No.

You, I,

I'm not convinced.

You know what, like, you know, it's great for Instagram, but

I, I don't, I, this is my take.

No, and I'm impartial to, this is my front.

Me actually have all three.

This is my take on it, right?

So, and I'm digressing a little bit, you know, if I'm putting it

back dam on and I'm covering it with extra Seal Pro climber, I'm

doing all of those good things.

And then I'm completely weatherproofing the outside of my window.

Yeah.

Yeah.

What is not fucking

getting in there?

I'm agree.

I'm in do test your window.

So I only test, so we did this, we, we flooded a window.

You

know, we do it occasionally, right?

But I, I've done it.

I don't need to get a fucking hose and then put it on Instagram.

I don't show and show everyone that you know, these windows are.

Yeah, but half the time they put a hose they put on like this gentle mist.

I'm like, fucking just soak the cu and our guess as well, right?

Like if you, if you are flood, if you are flood testing your

windows, keep doing it.

'cause I think it's an amazing thing to do.

Like, my opinion is I don't feel like I need to, like where do we stop too?

And it was also my own house.

Yeah.

So, yeah, I do agree with you though.

Great.

It makes great content and

use J panels.

Yeah, I, I'm gonna look at using them too, because then I'm not taping anything.

I'm not falling a sill.

I'm, let's talk about that offline.

Just going.

Okay, cool.

I've got a few things on that.

Not to shit on anyone, but let's, um, have a chat offline about that.

Yeah.

Oh, that, yeah, I heard it here first folks.

Um, is this gonna be good?

Keep, keep a look out for Victoria's

tools.

Um, so yeah.

I don't know, window and grade.

I've got some builders that are, are doing it.

Yeah.

Um, and it's just a solution.

Don't, don't get me wrong.

I think it's, you know what, good practice.

Yeah.

Uh, it, it, it's, it works, but I think if you're doing all the other things,

I just, I feel even if water gets in there and it sits there, like the

seals vapor closed,

it's the water's.

It can't go.

It's not going anywhere.

It's not going anywhere.

Yeah.

So, where you're at now, are you happy with sort of, how do

you feel being off the tools?

How do you, how does, how are you from a like.

We go back to identifying as a carpenter, how do you feel about

that now?

Um, on mornings, like this morning when it's, you know, 2, 3, 4

degrees, whatever it was, I like being in a nice warm car office.

don't get me wrong, when it's those nice, warm, sunny days and it's, you

know, summer and it's three 30 in the Y and all the guys inside the,

knocking back a beer or something.

Yeah, that's when it really hits home.

and it's still a bit of a struggle, but where I'm at now, I'm.

Learning to be content, with my journey and where I'm at.

But I think without having been a carpenter first, I wouldn't

be where I am totally now.

So having the industry knowledge, always came first.

And I think you, you're in a space now that you're helping the industry too.

Yeah.

Like you're doing good stuff and you're helping progress the

industry even if you're not.

In fact I would, I'd argue that you're probably having more of an impact.

Yeah, and

I think carpentry's like a, like I think the issue for so long

carpentry is if you a carpentry apprenticeship, you're a carpenter.

There's so many avenues you can go to now from carpentry,

which is a great starting point.

Yeah,

that is one thing I did make a mental note and I know, hey, we're gonna wrap this

up at shortly, but I understand from the apprentice point of view, there's always

the harsh reality of what the wage is.

Right.

But I think we are getting to bogged down on.

What it is now versus what it could be down the line.

And I know, look, it is what it is in terms of whatever the rates are.

I don't know what the going rates are, but where it sets you up and where you can get

to with the different pathways, whether it's a builder, whether it's a site

manager, whether you want to go into sales or whatever the case may be, having that.

Apprenticeship under your belt really opened so many doors.

Yeah.

You could sell

courses

online.

I wanna, I wanna like the, the, so this, the, the wage thing just for a second.

So what, you're on 50 or $60,000 a year, right?

To learn.

Yep.

Like if you are going to university and getting university education, paying

40, not only are you running up a hex debt, if that's still a thing, but

you're working it for 25 bucks, you know, mixing, being a barista or running food.

And you're working 15 hours a week like you, you're getting, and

then you've gotta go and do the university degree on top of that.

you gotta focus on what has actually happened here.

You're getting paid to learn.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So, so yes, it's a lower rate, it's a lower wage in comparison to what the

chippies are earning, but you're learning.

Yeah.

And those chippies had to go through the same thing as well.

A hundred percent

and way worse conditions.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Hammers whizzing past your head and getting yelled at like.

But the pay thing is Interesting.

Because the statistic is that 50 to 60% of people that get outta their

apprenticeship or 50% of people fail or leave an apprenticeship.

And the main reason is 70% is wage.

Yeah.

And

don't get me wrong, I understand the cost of living is, but how much

of that is related to them being constantly surrounded by noise?

That's like, you don't get paid enough, you'll get taken advantage of.

And that's those fucking stupid

Instagram reels about, oh, come do my course of pure mid schemes.

Don't get me wrong, I I the cost of living isn't going down.

Yeah.

So I understand why there is some negative feedback and bits and pieces

around that, but I also think general human nature, we just spend too much.

Yeah.

Like realistically putting it very, very bluntly.

Yeah.

is a thing.

Right.

And, but I guess the point I'm trying to make and the, and the parallel

I, I want to join is, all right, so when you're early twenties, late

teens, early twenties, you're either.

Do you some, two of your options are, you go to university.

Yeah.

Or you get into a trade.

Right.

At that point, you've made the choice to get educated.

Yeah.

So you're getting educated and getting paid or you, you're

educated and you're earning less.

And paying.

And you're paying.

Yeah.

So I think

the big difference there is your language that you've talked of, an apprenticeship

as being educated, whereas most people's perception that's a job would be

It's a job.

It's not necessarily a career.

Yeah, I think a lot of apprentices don't see it as a career as such.

It might just be they fell into Yeah.

A trade or,

and, and while, while we're on the topic of pay as well, you've done your,

if people have done their four years, you're a baby carpenter, then Yeah.

You're not like hundred percent.

You are on the beginning of your journey as a carpenter.

You don't work out a uni degree

and go, well, I'm on the fucking top dollar.

That's,

there's, there is a progression and I think there's, you know,

if you can prove yourself at, at, you know, at after four years.

And you can prove that you're worth that money.

Good on your, and if

you've spent time investing, learning, and one of my boys says it to our team

all the time, learning doesn't stop.

Uh, once you finish work, if you wanna get better, you go home and you learn more.

Well, every

single person sitting here right now is constantly learning.

Like we're always talking about new ways of doing.

Once

you qua, once you're qualified, like, what is that?

What is that piece of paper that you get after your four years essentially?

Yes.

Okay.

You've now got a qualification.

You've done your, your tafe.

Yeah.

Which, that's questionable anyway.

Yeah, there's what you learn after your apprenticeship.

I can't like so

Polytech this afternoon, this is actually gonna be a very good conversation.

Yeah.

So we are gonna speak to them later today and this that'd be another episode.

They're trying to now change the way the carpentry apprenticeship.

I think

we should get Brad in on that one.

No, no.

He's

coming in.

So it goes on from our previous conversation about apprentices.

They actually want to get people like us help teaching and how do we

get people like us into the system?

Yeah.

Yeah.

So, so they're, they're looking to change and,

and SBA at the moment, just to sort of throw that in, are, are talking to a

few tafes and also some of the larger, industry based organizations, so people

are starting to realize Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah, and, and actually go, oh, hang on a minute, we actually do

need to do it a little bit better.

Something needs to be done.

There's.

Like the construction industry is changing every day.

Yeah.

Like, and there's thousands of products.

We're here at archi build, how many products and exhibitors are around?

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

None of us, even though we're in the high performance or passive house

space, or general construction, whatever it is, none of us know the thousands

of products that are out there.

Yeah.

And we're never gonna know and fully understand what's going on.

And

the in industry's innovating every second.

Yeah.

A hundred percent.

So, I think, people need to keep their finger on the pulse about that too.

Yeah.

And like, I see it a lot from my side of things, but again, that's.

hardware, like what about all the cladding profiles?

Different membranes are wraps or techniques like it's, yeah.

It's so much going on all the time.

Yeah.

We're gonna wrap this one up.

Yeah.

Because we've gotta keep things moving.

But Jake, thank you very much.

Yeah, no worries.

At, at all.

So I think you're a bit of an inspiration to give people in this

industry, uh, options of what's Yeah.

Post carpentry if it doesn't work for them for various reasons.

But, um, thank you for coming on.

If you want to get on Notorious Tools, Instagram and your website.

Yeah.

So Instagram is just at notorious tools, same with Facebook and then the

website's, just notorious tools.com au.

Perfect.

But there's a lot happening behind the scenes with the website.

Um, trade accounts will be a thing, so you can log on and you'll get

your direct pricing as your business.

And there's amusing bloopers on the Instagram page as well.

Yeah, yeah.

Fun.

Quite funny.

Um, thank you very much.

Be more of that.

Cheers.

Thanks guys.

Cheers.