Hello and welcome. Today I'm discussing management and movement in the same breath and I'm joined by Toby Buckle to discuss this very important area that both of us work with and both have seen. Now Toby's been in the field a long time, more than 15 years working with leaders and management and he specializes as a facilitator. and a whole host of corporate spaces. But what's really interesting for everyone today is to think about leadership, management and movement. And often we don't speak about movement in the same breath. We have our business heads on and we think about all the cognitive stuff. And yeah, Toby and I have a lot of experience around the body. movement, leadership, and how they come together. So this is what we're going to dive into. Toby, welcome.

Thanks. How lovely to be here. Thank you very much for having me on. It's great.

It's great to have you on. let's unpack movement. It's a massive term. I use the word movement now to hold the description between exercise from cardiovascular exercise to strength exercise and mobility to also, how do we move in the day? Whether you are a sedentary, a knowledge worker at a computer. Or if you are getting up, moving around, taking, activity through your day. So I encompass the whole, how does our physiology actively work from the gentle to the more extreme? What's your description of a movement?

I'd agree it covers quite a broad spectrum and I think there's a danger when you start talking about movement that people just think of the extreme end of all that must mean going for a run or that must mean going, doing some exercise or a team sport or something like that when actually it can be quite small micro moments of movement which really help. and I think for me, movement is about actually thinking and being conscious about your body rather than just sitting in it all day without really thinking, what am I doing? Have I moved it? Have I stretched it? Have I done anything with my body today apart from as really subconscious level? So movement for me is talking about movement in a conscious sense. What are you consciously doing with your body?

Lovely. Yeah. Really nice description. Something that came to my mind recently was that for a long time, we've often been suggested that we live in a body like we actually live in this thing called the body. And, and I challenged that description. And I think we live through a body. We, we experienced the world through our senses, through actions, and they all come through our body to some degree or another. And of course, how our body is functioning. Whether that's dynamic, well energized, or heavy, lethargic, not well, ill, they have a huge effect on our outputs. So those of us in the management space, leadership, business, how your business is, how you are functioning and operating is really strongly influenced by the state of your physicality and your body. Toby, tell me a little more about how you've got to this place. You've been in the field a long time, working with lots of corporates and lots of people. How you got into understanding working with management and finessing people and bringing the element of movement into that work?

So I got into this because I was a manager myself and then a senior manager and I had managers working for me and I got really interested in Why some of them were good at it, and some of them weren't, and I went on lots of training for myself, which involved various things. And one of the things was NLP, which has got quite a large element of what are you doing with your body in terms of body language, how you're communicating, but also in terms of state management. So state management is that thing you were just alluding to in terms of how you're feeling, how you're working, and that affects your performance. So that was my first inkling into, Oh, there's more to this than just thinking through. It's not just a head thing we do. It's a body thing we do in communicating in being, and actually that has a profound effect. So I've over the years then got into thinking about my own movement, my own body. I've studied Tai Chi now for about 15, 16 years, which was my entry into discovering. I knew very little about how I actually operated within my body. and. I've done lots of sports throughout my life as well, which I've brought in elements of that to lots of people because there's a really good analogy between sports and how to manage people, how to lead people. So I've brought those elements of what does things like Tai Chi teach us in terms of state management, presence, being able to be assertive. What do they look like in terms of a physicality for people as well as thinking about, okay, so what is your general fitness energy levels? say about you as a manager and leader at this point, particularly I coach a lots of CEOs who are in really high stressful positions. I had one who was, CEO for quite a large, charity and that was quite a stressful position because he had people all over the world. in Darfur or Turkey where there's earthquakes or wars or, and, and that stress was really building up for him. And what he found was he wasn't finding any way to dissipate it. So we talked it through and the thing he came up with, I used to run and I don't run very often. So maybe if I just ran for 15 minutes every day, because that's all he could manage, that would make a difference. And it transformed his resilience levels. for doing that job. And that was a real item. That was one of the early people I coached and I was like, ah, perhaps more people need this.

I'm nodding along because I'm like, yeah, I totally get that. That's, that's so interesting. And it's curious, isn't it? So some people might be listening, thinking, yeah, I'm, I'm into active. I'm moving. I'm doing stuff and some maybe less. So we don't want to get caught up in judgments here and labels, but what we understand is the human body. primarily is designed to move. It's been around for a very long time. It's an elegant, powerful system, very dynamic, capable of lots of things. Now, while we might all not be an elite athlete or hepsathlon or something like that, we all can function well. And what that means to each of us, I think is important to define. I love what you said there about dealing with stress. It comes up in my work, certainly in coaching, people who are founders or running their own organizations. Stress is everywhere. And stress is this kind of catch all term, and I think the problem with umbrella terms is that we don't nuance it and understand what it is. And we also think it's all a head game, and therein lies a massive misunderstanding. Stress is a physiological response, first and foremost. Yep. So our nervous system is hardwired to look for threats. That's it's code one. It's always designed that way. That threat in old times might have been the weather, an animal, hunter gatherer, ancient times of human development. In modern world, it's, it's an email coming in from a disgruntled client or something like that. And it becomes a psychological threat point being same part of your nervous system triggers. And, and then we're in a cascade of, stress hormones, physiology, and then the thinking that goes with that. And there also lies the thing I want to really unpack today is so much of this is physical. So much stress is physical. So much experience is physically experienced. If we don't address that and stay stuck in our heads and hands up, I used to be in my head a lot, then we really just not gonna, not only not perform well, but we're going to suffer a lot more. And, and I love what you said about your, your, your client there, just getting back into some form of activity, running for this person, and how that literally changed his, his whole way of being. So that's wonderful. Toby, you've, you've told me some various things, stories about other people. Perhaps you could say a little more around, things that you're seeing about not just movement, but how the integration of body and mind or movement and management are working in the, in the recent times that you've been working with people, perhaps past the pandemic, because of course, so much of the pandemic really shifted us. What have you seen in the more last couple of years that that's relevant to this?

static even more, because they're hybrid working or they're working from home. and they are literally sitting at their desks on zoom calls or the team's calls all day. whereas before we're in the office, they at least used to move to go to meeting rooms or to go get their sandwich down the road and have a walk and talk with somebody. a lot of that has disappeared for a lot of people and, there seems to be this thing come out now where it's great that we've got video calls in many ways, but it's not great that actually it's become the default means of communication, I think, because actually what happens is when there's a video call, people think, oh, I've got to sit down and take this. Whereas if you're on a phone call, quite often you can move around, even if it's just walking around the room you're in. or, if you're careful in a safe space, you can walk and talk. With a phone called in the headphones on right that's disappeared for a lot of people because of the nature of video conferencing video calls So I see that actually we've probably become even more static and less movement is happening as a result of that

That's really interesting. Unsurprising. It's something which I've seen a little bit, but I know you work a lot more in with a lot more people and groups that have seen that. And the pandemic is curious. I had another guest on the clinical psychologist a while back was talking about these sort of gaps between if you were staying at home or you were working from home before and perhaps a little more introverted, you're really hard to get people back out of that that that groove that's happened since the pandemic and the lockdown experience. That said, these are some of the things Behavioral patterns. And as with all behavior, any behavior is a learned experience. you don't grow up, come into the world, become a CEO, you come as a baby, you learn about life, about movement. And so everything's a learned experience for all humans. And we can forget that actually everything is a learned experience and it's a cultural influence about how we are. So I really curious when you're saying about how Tai Chi helped you become more conscious and as a conscious, business person, You can look at these things such as, are you sedentary? Are you active? How are your energy levels? Are they up or down? Because it's consciousness first and foremost that means you're going to make some healthy changes. How, how do you bring that understanding from Tai Chi and being a conscious person into some of the work you've been doing?

of exercises I do and I like to do with people. So one of them is, using the circles of, comfort, stretch and panic is a, is a good description of them. And so laying out these circles, you can do it just on paper and it'd be a head exercise where you just write what's in your comfort zone. What's a bit of a stretch in the challenge for you and what's actually a panic or you procrastinate about, and you can just write it down on a bit of paper. But what I've realized is it's much more effective if I can get people to actually stand in those imaginary circles on the floor. Connect with the feeling of what it's, what does it feel like to be in my comfort zone? What things are actually in my comfort zone? How does that feel? Where do I feel that? Where does it feel like boredom? Where does it feel like okay ness of comfort zone? And get that in touch with their body response to that. And then I get them to step out into the stretch zone and feel what's it like when it's a bit of a challenge. When there is some growth, when there is some learning, get them to feel in their bodies where that is and what that sensation's And then with a bit of caution, don't, get them to step into what's a more of a panic, a little panic for you? Or that thing where the butterflies literally in your stomach, that phrase, what does that actually feel like? Is it butterflies in the stomach? Or, how does it feel when you're outside of the sweat zone for you? And then I get them to think about things that they can do. to step back into the strep zone and take it literally step with it back into the strep zone. And you can see whether they're actually cognizant with that because they'll hesitate otherwise with that step. Because the physicality of taking it into a different zone shows up for them. And so I can read people with my Tai Chi skills in terms of what their body responses are doing that, and I can map and pace them and talk about the things whilst they're doing an activity like that, which is really, really useful and gives you so much more information about what's going on and gives them a much better understanding of themselves.

I absolutely love that. That takes me back to my psychotherapeutic training. I did training in both cognitive and somatic psychotherapy. And somatic for those who don't know, Soma is a Greek word for the body. so it means something all physiological. and of course a lot of psychology is very heady. we can spend a lot of time in cognition and that's fine. But you don't experience life through cognition alone. There's the emotional strata and the physical strata of our experience. And what you've said there is, is exactly what we're alluding to, isn't it? Come out of that head, come into the experience of the body, those physical expressions, people call them emotions, they're physical expressions, as well as biological, and experience what that's actually like for you. Not an idea, a concept, but a real lived embodied experience. That's such a great, great example. How else does Tai Chi I don't want to come to this because, I've been doing yoga for a long time. How else has Tai Chi informed your practice perhaps as a professional yourself? And what have you learned about your body through using Tai Chi as a movement discipline? What have you learned from that?

useful when I am in situations where I'm slightly taken out of my comfort zone myself. and I use the Tai Chi practices grounding, which is feeling your feet on the ground, breathing into the belly, letting go of the tension in the jaw and getting into what they call a Tai Chi state. But actually I call it my training or facilitating state as much as anything or coaching state because it's a state where. I'm up, I'm there, I'm aware. It's not completely chilled and relaxed. It's actually, I'm there, I'm present and I'm able to take on things in a way which I'm not if I'm not in that state. So having that quick access to that is really useful. And the other thing is, is some of the principles of Tai Chi. So in Tai Chi, when somebody's coming towards you, the first principle is, is you listen and understand. the pressure that's coming into the part of the body. And then only when you listen and understand do you start to transform it and you take that pressure and you move it away from the centre of you so it's no longer threatening to you. And that's interesting because that's how I interpret. People coming at me almost verbally. It's like I need to listen. I need to understand before I start to try and transform and take it away from directly being at my center. And so I can use those principles really strongly of how can you ground yourself in the moment? And I teach people how to do this. I think it's one of the things that should be taught in schools, to be honest. How can you ground yourself to take yourself out of this res like reaction response to be able to actually respond? And your body will react quicker than your brain, so you need to manage your body. And sataichi's taught me how to manage my body, to a degree. I'm not saying I'm perfect. but it's taught me to manage my body in a way which I just didn't have before.

That's such a useful understanding the principle from, from touching about grounding being your body and what you said there about, your body's reacting before your head and. It's so funny, isn't it? In our, in our culture, we think, Oh, we're very much, we're thinking we're, we're very cognizant, very analytic. Our body is happening before our thinking mind to a large extent. I think of the tennis player. So it's well known that a tennis player does not see the ball coming at them. It's far too fast for a, a cognitive, Oh, here comes the ball on the left. so I think it's point. 3, 000th of a second. It's something like this. I did study it years ago. The body is, is picking up on this. So there are subtle tells. So if you were looking across a net at a tennis player, an elite tennis player, there'll be a way that the movements happening in the body, the rotation, and are what's called extra reception, which is awareness of what is around us is often below conscious thinking. And it's such an important point. If we, if we don't know, so we've really got three levels of understanding the world. I'll simplify this. Got extra reception, awareness of what's around us. So people, movement and it could be a car coming towards you quickly. It's all picking up often below consciousness. We've got interoception, which is the feeling in our body. So if you're having butterflies as you described in your perhaps taking someone into a slightly panicky, scary place, those butterflies. your information signals in your body go up to the brain as interoception. What's happening in the viscera, in the body. And then we've got perception, which is how do we filter and make sense of what on earth is that stuff that's happening? Is my coworker, colleague, client, having a go at me? Do I not feel safe? Is it the fact that I'm worried about this situation? I've got tense belly and I'm misreading. I'm filtering the perceptional information through differently. there's a lot to be looked at here. And I think what I really want to share is that so much happens mediated through our body, as you've alluded to already. that we need to be very careful of. If we're an analytic person, you are missing the fact that your body is, is part of that information as well. It's a really important part. And I taught yoga, for a long time. And I saw some of the practices from that coming into presence. Being with a difficult sensation, being able to get out of your head, such as how long is this posture going to last? It's killing me. That's our thoughts are running. And then of course, after a while, okay, I'm, I'm with that. So these Eastern disciplines really teach us a lot.

And I think that's really interesting to spread it out to actually it's, it's awareness of others and it's awareness of yourself. I love that. And it's awareness of what's going on. And I think we in this Western culture particularly often delete so much information and we're just not. paying attention to it at all. And as soon as you are aware, like for example, I know when I'm slightly tense, my left hand starts to clench slightly. And now I'm, because I'm aware of that, I'll often be in meetings or do whatever, and I'll go, Oh, that's interesting. My left hand's just gone slightly tense. I'm now aware that I'm slightly tense. And now I'll be going, is that okay or not? Okay. Without, just being aware of things for yourself. is wonderful. But that thing of noticing others as well, because once you become aware of your own body, you notice others, but you've got to do that with caution and go, okay, so they're moving in a certain way, they're doing certain things. And we tend to project what that would mean onto them. And there's all these things out there on the internet or wherever about what this body language means, this and that. And it's a bit like, oh, they folded their arms. That must mean they're defensive. And it's Or they've got cold hands. what does it really mean? And so actually paying attention and understanding people's movements and what they're doing and getting to understand their habitual movements and when are they like that? When are they like this? That's the depth of relationship I think you need to start building when you're in management and leadership is not only understanding how somebody thinks but how they respond and you can only do that by understanding the body.

Lovely. Yeah. Really powerful. And it's such a key point. Some of my recent episodes have had guests, also, really high level professionals like yourself, Toby, saying a similar message. We need human connection. Yes, we'll have video calls, and it's great. Remote working, it can have a really good place, but not at the expense of real human connection. We're meant to meet with social species. We're hardwired. We've got neurons in the brain called mirror neurons, which are designed for empathy. We are hardwired to be with each other. There's nothing wrong with technology. It allows us to do great things. But we don't want to become a slave to it. Otherwise, then you've just, you're no longer leading. Leadership starts with self leadership. So it's really important to own that understanding. And, and of course, really good leadership starts with self awareness and that is a mind and a body and a presence experience. and of course it's cultivating it continuously. It's not, you don't want one course like, Oh, I'm really aware now, you keep. Keep the work going. For those who's thinking, okay, cool. This all sounds good. Yeah. I want to do some more body related stuff, but I'm so busy. I haven't got time. I hear these, reasons. Let's be gentle. These reasons. Now I get it. And I've got a lot of clients that are super, super busy. And I understand that time is squeezed. It is squeezed for a lot of people and we have to make. careful decisions on how we spend that time. How would you, and how are you going about suggesting to people you're working with about, okay, we need to integrate the body and we need to create some movement work of some kind. How are you starting to bring this in so people are not only able to do it, but they're bypassing any resistance that might come up?

It's a good question. And I think it varies for individual to individual quite a lot, but there's some general things which help. So in terms of people not doing things, I think of demotivation strategies as opposed to motivation strategies. So rather than how can you motivate people to do these things, I think about, how are they stopping themselves? What's the kind of formula, the almost the X, Y, Z for them to demotivate themselves to not move. So it might be, Oh, it's too big. It's too difficult. I'm not feeling any energy right now. And I've got all this other stuff to do. If I put those threes in order, plus, plus, plus equals not going to move. And so it's actually, it's working with some of those and going actually, how can you shrink maybe the size of it if that's the thing? And do the smallest amount. What's the micro stuff you can do? I know you were talking in the previous podcast about, chair stretches and, how you can just do stuff in your chair. So you don't even have to leave the chair to do some stuff if that's where you're at. But I think for me, what I just suggest is how can you change your diary or get the people who put your stuff in the diary, which is usually what it is for my clients. how can you get them to actually build in. Buffer zones, so that at the end of every meeting you get a chance to stretch and reflect because one of the things which we don't often have is enough reflection time anyway. So rather than going, okay, so there's an hour meeting followed by an hour meeting followed by an hour meeting, you go, actually, no, it's a 50 minute meeting and then I have a 10 minute break. And in that break, I can stand up, I can go somewhere, I can do something just moving a little bit. If you're working from home. Go and make a cup of tea and walk around, if you're in the office, go and just, go somewhere that requires a little bit of movement because anything is better than nothing. If you just break it up a little bit. if you're in the office, I like to find excuses, to go and do some movement. so I used to when I was a manager. actually go around and water the plants on our office floor. And people were like, it's crazy, you're a senior manager, why are you watering the plants? And I'd be like, two reasons. One, gets me moving. Second reason, it gets me to incidentally meet everyone on the floor. Because I'm just walking around without purpose. Just for half an hour. So it's actually, how can you build in a kind of covert and over objective around movement? So that actually you're moving and doing something else. So I talked before about, maybe have a phone call where you go for a walk and talk, or if you've got a meeting in person with somebody, suggest you go for a walk and a talk. And the amount of people who don't even do that is because they just haven't thought about it. I was working with a group at a university the other week, and they've got this lovely park round 15 minutes through the. walkway from them and out of 30 people zero had been to that parkland to have a walk around and many of 10 or 15 years because it just hadn't even occurred that that was okay because they made a rule in their head that it wasn't okay, they told themselves a story. It's not okay to do that. So what I think is how can you challenge some of the stories that you've made around how you work? And how can you create better stories which involve just doing some movement?

Yeah. Wonderful. Wonderful. because it's a story and our mind is actually a habit. The story of ourself is a habit. It's an elegant story that weaves together in some, what seems a coherent fashion, but it's all a clever trick of the mind. So the very clever cognitive scientists say, and you're right. If we go to our work space, and particularly if you're desk bound, you're a knowledge worker, and there's a lot of sitting involved, very easy to be in that zone. So it's not to say, let's not do that. It's like, how can you integrate? And I think the first question, and it's a question I posed to a coaching client I had, how can you move more? And we basically did a brainstorm. And one of the questions, and this is one of my sort of coaching go tos, is what can you do more? But I also go to the other side and say, what aren't you doing? So we go through, I'm not going upstairs. Okay. I'm not running upstairs in London. I'm taking the elevator. Okay. I'm getting a delivery instead of walking to the place to grab some, some food for lunch. Okay. So then we start to see what we can do and also where the holes are. And then there's a, there's a, people's minds are brilliant. most people in leadership manager are very clever people, and it doesn't take long to go, Hmm, okay, I can ex, I can solve this problem. I can really change this. So the answer can become quickly. I, I love what you said, make it covert and make it overt. It's such a great strategy, but I think keep it simple, it's such a, I had a client. And I suggested she got active. She seeked a PT. She wasn't in my area. I went really full on, of course, not long later, got a serious injury because her body wasn't conditioned. And it's something I speak to around, because I work with strength and conditioning as well, and in the physical domain. There's a lot of things in the fitness, healthy area, which says, Oh, 12 weeks to a new body. And it's just, it's, it might be 12 weeks to some change and that's okay. And that's, that's a good thing. But is it sustainable? And if you're going too hard too quick, you're pushing your muscles fine, but if your soft, your connective tissue isn't ready for it. Let's start with gentle walking every day, the stairs every day, going up and down, as you said, making calls on the phone. All of these pieces then become compound interest, if you will. And they build and they build and then start to bring in, it could be Tai Chi, it could be strength and conditioning, it could be some running, but layer it in a long term. So I think this is one of the things I see. People want a quick win. It's that simple. Your body's not going anywhere, or it's going to fail. It's that simple. It's not going anywhere, or it's going to fail. So what are you going to do? What are you going to do? And I have someone who lives with an autoimmune condition, which can wipe me out, so I know how, illness can be really tough for people, and I know it's not always easy, So I get it. I really do. But at every junction, it's like, how can I move more? What could I do today? I think it's a really important question to hold in one's mind.

And I love that bit around sustainability because it is so common for people to go, I'm just going to max out this because I've really, they've reached a point of what I call away from motivation where they realize there's a problem and they want to get as far away from the problem as possible. And then they just do it and until the point where that diminishes and they are far away enough from the problem, so therefore I don't need to do it anymore. And then, lo and behold, and a few months later, they're back to where the problem is and they move again to try and move away from that problem. And that's not a sustainable long term strategy. It's a good kickstart, but it's not in there. I think one of the elements is that you've got to find something that you enjoy doing. Don't go out there and find something which you just think oh, that's a chore. It's almost like this puritanical thing of if I'm going to do something healthy, it's got to be really like hard work and bad for me and I've got to be miserable doing it. And it's what? Seriously, why not do something you enjoy and you're capable of and gives you pleasure? you might have to search around a fair bit to find that. But, there's so much stuff around there. It might just be put on a bit of music and have a little boogie on your own in the kitchen, right? That's a, yeah, if that's your thing, do that thing rather than the thing that you've got to go to a gym if you hate gyms. What is it that'll actually work for you in terms of enjoyment? That will build in sustainability.

Yeah. Yeah. so important. Yes. Find something which you certainly don't hate is the first one. I wouldn't say to that. So I, a little quick story. When I started yoga, so those, those who know me from the past, I taught yoga for more than a decade. I took a lot of classes and workshops and all kinds of things. And quite renowned in the area I was doing. When I started it, I was awful. And not only was I awful at it, I absolutely hated it. I was like, oh this is awful, this is horrible. In terms of, I just felt awkward, and clunky, the only bloke in the class, but I did feel good afterwards. And one thing I would say is that if we have a quick win mindset, that's going to cause you problems. So address that straight away, but make some capacity for staying with something. So that might look like Zumba and it might look like a dance class, or it might look like a swimming club. It doesn't matter, but give it a bit a bit of time, give it a little bit of time because I think we can have this ricochet effect where we're like, Oh, I didn't like it. It's not for me. the first time I went to a CrossFit gym, I was absolutely intimidated. I was, compared to the young athletes I was training with, I was absolutely rubbish. And I was like, Oh, my ego was really, really squashed. And certainly as a man who's been brought up on, you can't look like you fail because there's shame involved with that. That was not an easy place for me. Thank goodness I do the work that I do. And I have coaching and done years of psychology and therapy that I could be with that discomfort. But what it gave me, because I allowed my time to go, let's give it a few months and see how I get on with this, as opposed to, let's try a class and see if I like it. I then went on to training four times a week after six months and completely changed my whole fitness levels and that was in my mid forties and now I train like an athlete. I'm active all the time. That's not to be big headed or anything. It's just that's the discipline because the discipline is love. I literally love the privilege that I can move. It's just wonderful. But they didn't start that way. And I think this is one of the things where I agree with you. You've got to find something you like. And don't totally hate it, but I would add to that, give it a little bit of time, wherever, whatever that is, and then tie that together and, and be kind to yourself as well. Be kind to yourself with it.

I love that and I'd agree you don't want to just go once and say it's not for you, right? That's it. Unless it really, really, really, really isn't right. But you do need to give it a while. And, my analogy is, food. So my wife's a nutritionist. And she talks about actually when you're trying new food, you need to try it about seven or eight times to overcome that natural body reaction of not liking it necessarily. And which is really useful if you've got kids, to realize, you can say, you've only tried it four times. You've got to give it another four times. And then if you really don't like it, then, then give up. But it's kind of like, what's the number you need to do before you actually go through that bit of, this is uncomfortable, this is a stretch, to actually going, okay, now I can do this, I can do this, I can do this, this is okay.

Yeah, that's so important. I believe that taste buds change every 14 days if I'm correct. So the recycling process of our cells in a body, I think the taste buds are 14 days approximately. So yeah, absolutely. If you taste something like, let's say, you eat a very western diet full of fructose and rubbish and you have lots of veg, it's gonna taste a bit weird. But if you then stay on that kind of largely a plant based diet for a while. Suddenly it tastes completely different and you go and maybe have a, a ready meal and God, it just has chemicals. So yeah, for sure. That's a big one. And we're also talking about, I think we're talking about a blending to some version of you that's new. So we're very homeostatic, us human beings. We like to stay with what we know. It's how we're hardwired. You've already alluded to this, bringing people out of the comfort zone, into the stretch zone. Life is on that edge there. That's where the cool stuff is. And just stepping into that stretch shown in many domains, whether it's cognitive, whether it's professional or physical. And I think the more we stay in comfort is actually, it becomes, I've seen it with certainly people in my personal sphere. The more we shrink is the more intimidating the world is. The less we move, the more pain and discomfort our body has. And the less active we are, the less energy we've got. And it's, it's like it chases you down to a place you don't want to be. So I think when we get comfortable, we mean with that discomfort, just a little discomfort, like pushing those edges a bit, trying some new stuff, being okay with being a bit rubbish at something for a while allows us the, I think the permission to really change who we are and adapt and to grow.

I love that. And I think another thing for me is the fact that you're not just doing it for yourself, you're role modeling for others. And actually quite a lot of managers and leaders, if you tell them, actually don't do it for yourself, do it for your organization, they'll actually... Do it because that's their thing is, Oh, yeah. Okay. Yeah. It's not indulgent for me. It's actually, I need to do this for the people at work within my organization to show that actually this stuff is important and it's a priority. If you want a healthy, energized, effective workforce, make sure they move more often, make sure they eat regularly, make sure they rest. it's the symbol stuff. Why aren't you role modeling that?

Yeah, that's so powerful. And it makes me think about, so if I'm sitting in a position of leadership and I've got, an organization of people, what don't I want would be a question in my mind as a leader and a manager. What don't I want? I don't want people off sick. I don't want people disengaged. I don't want people underperforming. And I don't want burnout because not only is that bad for our business, it's bad for our people. And that's just bad for everyone. So It's both, isn't it? It's like, where are we moving towards with a movement led thinking approach to life and business? And also, what are we moving away from? What does that actually, what are the payoffs? What are the rewards? And there's plenty there. There really is plenty there. And, there's many people, like Peter Atiyah is one of them. American Doctor, he's got a book out and does a, he's very high profile on social media and he speaks a lot about how movement is, if you're not moving there's so many issues around cardiovascular issues, cancers, diabetes, all the things that no one wants, but there's too much of it around and one of the... Ways of moving away from that is our functioning body, which is moving towards healthy, active, strong, dynamic, and mobile. And it starts from the first step, doesn't it? it starts from, I take the stairs rather than the elevator for the next month. And then maybe I will do walking meetings instead of setting meetings. The fun, and it starts layer upon layer, but it's, if you don't start, you're only going to regress. And certainly when we're at midlife, you do not want to be regressing. Toby, I want to ask you, because I know you're so hot on this. Habits. Because we might be thinking, this is brilliant, I'm so on board with this. But how do we build habits to make this become a real, tangible change? What's, what's your way of working people to build these habits in?

The first thing I do is look at the motivation and make sure the motivation stacks up. So we do a lot of What will it look like in the future if you manage to do this, You've got to have a nice positive towards so that it's there and check in what are the pros and benefits of this And but also what's it going to cost you? So people often miss that bit out because they're really keen to just get the positives But actually there's a question which goes in there an ecology check and go. Okay. So what's this going to cost you? to make sure they're not embarking on something which is going to be too onerous and cost them too much in terms of other stuff, relationships and all sorts of stuff can go, right? And so checking in with that piece first around the motivation and then making it simple. I like what you're saying about, simple steps. So break it down to a manageable chunk size, something that's doable within the space and time available, and then finding the right time of day for it is often just the gold dust, which is there. So I've got a wellbeing habit, which is I brush my teeth twice a day. I don't know if you do, but I find it's good. I think most people have managed that wellbeing habit by our age, right? and it's things like that where people go, how do I do that? You don't have to think about it. You don't set an alarm. You don't set a a point in your diary to do your teeth. You've chained it into. I do mine after I've had my breakfast, before I have my shower, it fits in that slot, that's when I do it, without fail, that's when I do it, it fits that gap. So finding where the gap is in your schedule or your day, where that bit of movement fits, that habit. And it's the same for any habits, to be honest, if you don't find the slot which fits where it's naturally, that's just where it happens, that's good. And then the bit is to try it, give it a whirl, and then have a review period where you give yourself feedback on how's that going, as opposed to, I tried that and then I gave up. Actually, what's your review period? How are you going to go, okay, That's worked for this long, but then it didn't work on that occasion and what was different about that? Why did that happen? What do I need to do differently? Those simple feedback questions for yourself or get somebody else to do it for you. An accountability partner is brilliant for, habits as you probably know. being as that's what you are for most people on that. it's, it's one of those things where you just teach it as not a failure, but a chance for feedback. That makes the golden difference because it takes a while often to get a habit to form. the research doesn't show that it's a particular length of time or it's a particular amount of times. It depends on the complexity of the task and how often you're going to do it over a period of time. So if you're doing something many times in the day, that will become a habit quite quickly. But if you're only doing it once a week, you've got to accept it's going to take a while for that to become a habit. It's not going to be a habit. On the fourth time you do it, it's probably going to take a wee while to get there. So those are the things which I try to build in and explain to people and go, okay, so let's go there. Let's go there. let's have a review period and see how that habits embedding. And you'll know when it's become a habit because you no longer have to think about it. You just do it.

Yeah, really really cool. I'm thinking of James Clear's works. There's two people I follow, James Clear and Charles Duhigg, both specialists in the habit field. And James Clear made a really simple model, but one of his, his, his pieces was to create a compelling reason because behaviour is really, behaviour is an expression. So if you are someone who goes to the gym, goes for a run, goes for a swim, that's an expression, that's an action, that's expressing something of about you. And as I said to you, I, in my mind, I'm not an athlete as such, I'm not running, I'm not competing for much, and so some people might call me out. But in terms of. I just need to see it for me. If I think I'm an athlete, what does an athlete do? they, they go down the gym, they do the training, they keep learning about the body. They find ways to enjoy that process and to be in the game. Whereas a person who doesn't see themselves as an athlete, won't. Case in point, those of us, we all know this one. Has anyone done the New Year thing of, I'll start running. January 1st, you got, you got your great new trainers on, your new gear. And you're running, and it's miserable, and it's dark, and you stick it out until the third week, and then you bail. And the reason we bail, it's not because the intention's not there. It's not because the trainers weren't right. And yeah, the weather can be tough. It's because we didn't have a compelling enough reason to do it. We didn't have enough of a timeline. You're not going to become a runner in a month. Give it, give it three years. Then you'll probably become, quote, a runner. And the other thing is, is your identity. So if you always say, I'm not a gym person. And you try to go to the gym, you will, the mind will actually, the predictive brain will say, this isn't the right environment and move away from that. And then of course, it will bias you and say, of course we're not a gym person. Why would I go to the gym? So be very careful of the identity that we hold about ourselves, whoever we are and thinking, how do I describe myself? Because, That is also something we own. If we're conscious, as you alluded to earlier on in our conversation, if we're conscious about what's my identity, I am statements, they are flexible. There's some, there's some fluidity in that, because if you are out for a gentle run, say you're doing a little couple of miles or something simple, at that point, you are a runner. By true definition, you are taking the act, so be very careful of the self sabotage identity piece, which I know Drew Hicks spoke about and James Clear spoke about, and I would add that to what you've said there. It's so important for building habits, and no, it doesn't take 90 days. That's just silly. I love what you said about complexity because that's the truth of it. So get rid of these timelines. Go long term. what, how am I going to be in five years time? I'm in a far better attitude than if I do this exercise or this movement process. What's going to happen next week? Will you just go next week? But what's going to happen next year is the interesting question. What's going to happen when you retire? You're going to feel good. or are you just, you're going to be in a bad shape. So long game thinking and I would be gentle. it's such a tough thing in the male domain. We, we're often very hard, but I know some of my female clients are too. Very tough on ourselves, push, push, push. Commit, consistent. But a little gentleness as well because, you don't want to be beating yourself up to do this movement stuff. It wants to be integrated into your way of being. And I think for me, that seems to be much more sustainable and functional as well.

that bit about identity. I wholeheartedly agree with that and that sense of Making sure that the idealised you is, is realistic and actually attractive to you, because somebody once said we're always trying to move into the idealised you, we're always running slightly behind the idealised self. And people have this idea that actually, Oh, the idealized self is just they don't really buy into that. They don't really see themselves as that. They don't think I am. And I love that bit about, you are a runner if you're running. you are a healthy person if you're trying to look after your body. whether you're healthy in that moment or not, you're trying to be healthy. And it's that being, are you being, are you doing those things, which is really, fundamental. Absolutely. And the compelling reasons, absolutely agree with. you need that long term towards motivation of I want to be like this. I think you also need a really compelling, what I call a big away from or kick up the bum motivation in the moment. sometimes on a cold, wet morning, I don't always feel like doing some of the exercise outside that I do. my compelling away from reason is, is... I visualise myself lying in bed having had a stroke and my kids coming up and talking to me. That's quite powerful. People go, what? And I go, but it needs to be that big for me to then get out of bed, which is really, that's ideal for me at the moment, that warm, comfy bed, but it needs to be that really big punchiness to get me out there. So figure out when do you need that, punchy kind of kick up the what's it to get out there and do it if that's your thing.

Really nice. And it's, it's, it's, yeah, I guess that's leveraging the, the predictive brain's ability of anxiety. Oh my God, what if this happened? It's it could really, really could. And we may have all come across people who've had difficult things happen to them, which can be tragic and difficult. And it can happen to each of us, whether it's an illness, an accident. So if that reason's yeah, I don't want to be, I dunno, whatever it is, ill, for some reason or have that, that difficult thing happen to me, then I'm damn well gonna do something about it. And. If I can find autonomy in my own world, it's very powerful. If I can help that with another person, it feels very powerful and important. So if, if any of us can create autonomy, it doesn't matter so much how we get that, whether it's that kick up the bum, as you say, or the, the, I'm going to be this type of person, autonomy and action is traction. It will create change. There's nothing beats action ever. So action really is powerful. So getting there is, is, is our most important thing. Wow, Toby, I'm wanting to summarize. We've covered a lot of different things here, and I want to summarize because you have, so much experience and knowledge in terms of practicalities. So if we're listening and we're thinking, cool, this is, this is really vibing, I've, I've really taken on board some stuff, but let's, let's, how can our listener really integrate some of these practices into their working practice, in fact their day practices? What would you suggest as a kind of a summary of what we've covered so far?

I would say figure out where you are at the moment and where you want to be and why. So that's the fundamental starting point is, where are you now? Are you doing enough in your head without being too judgy about it and without being too comparative, but going in terms of my movement, my tendency to do movement, am I doing enough? If you're not, how much would you like to be doing? Realistically and be really realistic about how much you want to do and then at that point you can start to go Okay, so I what sort of little things could I start doing straight away because people have a tendency to put it off and go Oh, I you know, I've realized not doing it so I'll make a big plan and maybe I'll start next year sometime and it's actually What could you do just straight away which would make a little difference? Some of those things I talked about just walking on the phone while you're talking or you know those little things, build those in and then if you want to do more find the things and try little prototypes of, okay so maybe I could try that thing or that thing or that thing, give them long enough like we said. to give them a whirl, but just treat it as little experiments. I'm going to find something which will actually get me long term to where I want to get to. and that's the thing that will sustain me and that will become my thing, which is just, I don't even need to build it in. It just becomes a habit because I've done it and done it and done it, and that's where I'll get to.

So here's what I would say for, for a summary. We want to look at the movement in our day and we want to look at bigger movements. So movement in the day might look like, how much can I get up? Can I do the walking and talking on the phone? But remembering things such as if we get up, the major muscle groups in our body, they talk to the metabolic system and regulate blood sugars. So if there are weight gain issues or anything like diabetes or on the edge of that, that's a metabolic issue that can be strongly influenced by the amount of movement or lack thereof you're doing. So motivation there. I leave things at the top of my roof. I've got, three stories. I purposely leave stuff up there so I have to go back up and get it. And people might say you're wasting time. No, no, no, no. You can't waste time. This is another thing I want to call out. You can use time for better reasons and for less better reasons, but you can't waste it. You can't actually waste time. You can just do ineffective things with it. So if you're going up and down the stairs to get stuff or using the loo on the fifth floor or something like that, in my viewing, it's That's a little cardio movement. That's a little opportunity to move. And when you look at it differently, that can have a big shift. And then to the big movement staff. So we're talking about strength work, cardio work, getting things really going. If you're not sure there's amazing resources online. We're really gifted with that now. There's a great things online that you can follow. And if you're really not sure, get a, get a coach, get a PT, get someone who works in this space to work with you. Because that can really shift it so you're not on your own. So those two spaces I think is really important to think about movement. The subtle, the everyday, and then perhaps the bigger stuff, which you might want to lean towards.

I love that. And I would add for managers, particularly in leaders, see it as part of your responsibility. As a leader and a manager in the organisation, it's your responsibility to be energised. It's your responsibility to be able to manage your stress and find ways of dealing with whatever stress is to you, being able to deal with that. And it's also your responsibility to understand yourself and your body responses and get more familiar with how you respond at a body level. because then you'll be much better at doing your job and you'll be a role model for others. And I think that's what being a leader is about.

Perfect. Absolute summary. Yeah. Great leadership, huh? Great leadership. Dear listener, thank you. I hope there is lots you have gleaned from that. Remember, go back, make notes, grab the summary, do what you need to do. Take action. If you only do one thing, take some action. I implore you to do Toby, thank you for joining me today for sharing your knowledge experience and I deeply appreciate it. Dear listener, I'll see you on the next one. Take Thank you so much for listening. If you enjoyed the episode, please subscribe and if a friend would benefit from hearing this, do send it on to them as well. If you would like to get in touch yourself, then you can go to my website, which is sal jeffries.com, spelled S A L J E F E R I E s sal jeffries.com. Hit the get in touch link and there you can send me a direct message. If you'd like to go one step further and learn whether coaching could help you overcome a challenge or a block in your life, then do reach out and I offer a call where we can discuss how this may be able to help you. Until the next time, take care.