0:00:05.4 VB: Welcome to the Inclusive Education Project. I'm Vickie Brett.

0:00:09.0 AS: I'm Amanda Selogie. We're two civil rights lawyers on a mission to change the conversation about education, civil rights, and modern activism.

0:00:19.3 VB: Each week, we're gonna explore new topics which are going to educate and empower others.

0:00:24.8 AS: And give them a platform to enact change in education and level the playing field.

0:00:32.9 VB: Welcome back, listeners.

0:00:34.7 AS: Hi, friends.

0:00:35.8 VB: We have really tried to be intentional with our guests in this spring semester just because things are constantly changing every day, it seems like. And we wanna be able to let you know our experiences, but other people's experiences as well, like we always have, but in particular during this time under this administration. And we have Dr. Poon with us today, who we just, we are salivating to get to talk to you Dr. Poon, welcome. Welcome to our podcast.

0:01:11.8 DP: Thank you so much. Excited to be here.

0:01:14.3 VB: Dr. Poon, can you please give our listeners a little bit of your background and what you do?

0:01:20.4 DP: Yeah, sure. So, hi, everyone. My name is OiYan Poon, and I have had a long career. About 25 years ago, I started in student affairs in higher education. So I did a lot of what was... Back then it was called multicultural affairs in higher education. You might know it now as diversity, equity and inclusion. And yeah, I worked at George Mason University in recruitment and retention work, and then also at UC Davis in Northern California. And then after that, I went back to grad school. I became a faculty member in higher education. And a lot of my research work has been around advancing you know basically improving institutional performance to be fair and just and supportive of students wherever they're at in their learning journeys.

0:02:11.9 DP: And yeah and so currently, I am a consultant to Governor JB Pritzker here in Illinois. I'm located in Chicago, and I'm a consultant to Governor Pritzker's office. You know, working on and thinking through how do we maintain and advance, continue advancing equity in higher education in the State of Illinois. And I have a book that came out recently, it's called Asian American Is Not a Colour: Conversations on Race, Affirmative Action, and Family. It's written as letters to my daughter, who is now 10. And so the book opens up with a conversation she started with me back when she was three, asking me you know basically, what does it mean to be who we are? What does it mean to be Asian American? It's not a color like black or white. So where do we fall?

0:03:01.8 VB: I mean, from the mouth of babes, right? [laughter]

0:03:04.1 DP: Yeah, yeah. So the title is actually her words. She was like, mom, if we're not black and we're not white, you're saying we're Asian American. Asian American's not a color. I'm three. I know these things, so.

0:03:16.5 VB: Wow. Your role as consultant for the State, I can imagine, has become very important in recent months, you know, with the executive orders and getting rid of DEI and all this, you know, whatever the mainstream media wants us to panic about. Obviously, we felt the shift as well diversity, equity, and inclusion is like our... Like, that's our backyard. That's our jam like, we advocate on behalf of children with special needs. You know what I find so interesting is that diversity and race and disability, it's a part of life. It just is. And so it really blows my mind that so many different populations are being ostracized, and it's like, you don't know anybody that doesn't fit into one of those categories, you know, of just like, it just, it blows my mind. And so I wonder, how have you been navigating your work under this administration so far?

0:04:23.8 DP: That's a tough question.

0:04:25.3 VB: A big one. Yeah.

0:04:26.3 DP: Yeah, it's a big one. And I'll be honest and start with, I've been in my feelings a lot lately.

0:04:31.7 VB: Yeah.

0:04:31.8 AS: Yeah.

0:04:32.4 DP: You know, the other thing about my background is that I wrote the amicus briefs on behalf of the social scientist community across the country in the admissions lawsuits, SFFA versus Harvard and SFFA versus UNC Chapel Hill. And so that's been the bulk of my career. So in 2023, when that ruling came out against diversity, I feel like there were a lot of people, and I grew up in Boston, and I had a lot of people asking me, OiYan, why do you care who goes to Harvard? There's so few people who go to Harvard. Right. I'm like, this is... You don't understand. This is so much more than just who goes to Harvard. Right? And so now we're seeing this. So I feel like I've been in my feelings a lot, especially since June 2023, but now it's, you know, so I'm in my feelings. I have an excellent therapist. I have...

0:05:27.5 VB: Oh, good, good. No, I think that's important. No, thank you for sharing that. Because, I mean, you know clients every day ask us, you know, well, what's going to happen? And it's like, you know what? The law is so slow. I mean, there may be immediate things, but it really it takes time to process. And I appreciate you being honest about that. It's like I'm just trying to focus on every day 'cause that's all we have.

0:05:45.1 DP: Exactly.

0:05:46.3 VB: And it sounds like since 2020, I mean, that was major. And you're still processing, which I think for people to hear.

0:05:53.1 DP: It's just thing after thing, too processing. And I can't get straight and strategic without being, you know calming myself down and getting clear.

0:06:04.4 AS: Yeah. And I think the thing that's so frustrating is that there's so many critiques out there about what people did wrong to allow this administration to be in. And a lot of the blame seems to be focused on, well, you know, the people on the left, the Democrats, they fought too hard, too fast on DEI. And that's kind of, I think, coming from a lot of propaganda that's out there.

0:06:32.3 VB: Absolutely.

0:06:33.1 AS: About the idea of diversity, equity and inclusion of, like, this is just something that came about recently. And, like, we're all of a sudden doing this and getting the fact that there has been a push for equality right? In this country since the very beginning. And I mean, we tell people all the time, like, in our work, you know, we deal with Individuals Disabilities Education Act. So the IDEA, which this year, I mean, it's only 50 years old like but. So, yes, that's in... I mean, it's been around for 50 years. That's a long time. Right? But it took many, many generations to even get to that point. And it wasn't just, like, one day, one congressional rep said, you know what? Let's provide protections for children with disabilities and let's create a law. And it happened instantly. Right? It was generations of advocates fighting for equal rights. And the same has been happening in civil rights and the civil rights movement for generations and generations. I mean, so this is nothing that is new. There's nothing that like, all of a sudden just happened, but people are quick to believe and do the blaming. Right? And the idea that, like, even diversity, equity, inclusion has been like shortened to DEI, like, people aren't even saying the words because they know if they do, it's like, oh, wait, what are we doing? What are we against?

0:07:54.3 DP: The values become clear, diversity, equity, and inclusion, these are values concepts. They're not policies in and of themselves. Right? They represent... And thank you, Amanda, for bringing up the generations of movement building. Right? When you think about the efforts by the Trump administration, Elon Musk, and Project 2025 to take down the Department of Education, you mentioned IDEA, right? The Department of Education as an idea, you know, you can trace that all the way back to reconstruction. Right? Reconstruction, the 20th century, 1900 civil rights movement. That's not a long time ago when we're thinking about the long history of this country. Right? These are both long and short. Kind of like parenthood. Right? Like the days are long, the years are short kind of thing.

0:08:42.0 VB: Yes.

0:08:42.8 AS: Yes.

0:08:42.8 DP: These ideas you know I think it's up to our generation now to, the question for us now is what are we gonna do as this generation to carry forward these ideas of civil rights and equity and making sure that all students get quality education that they need for who they are and the diversity of learning you know that they're at in their journeys and who they are.

0:09:07.2 VB: Agreed. And I think when we hear about America and the melting pot and it's just, it's so contradictory to what the policies of this current administration is like, trying to like force feed people. And yeah, I think talking in acronyms, and Amanda and I inadvertently do it all the time just because special education, like, lives in acronyms. And so then, you know, we have to stop and go, okay, well, IEP is individualized education you know, plan or program. Right? Think of it as a plan. And, you know it's for this child. And a lot of these accommodations and modifications, we can... We've even seen some teachers just automatically do it, and it helps everyone. Unfortunately, we have it, you know. Yes as a plan for us to reference, but mostly so that we could enforce it. Right? And I imagine that that is a lot of the work that I assume the States are trying to figure out. Right? Is how do we as a State kind of enforce or just know that we are providing these opportunities for diversity to thrive for equity and inclusion, which it's just, you know, they're so like weaponized. And it's like, you're like... If you look at your everyday life, you're probably in an atmosphere that has all those. You're just not calling it that.

0:10:39.5 DP: Right. I've been hearing all these people say, reminding us like parental leave policies. These are accommodations.

0:10:46.5 VB: Yes.

0:10:47.1 DP: To make sure that we don't, as systems and societies, we don't lose talent. Right? That we can have all the team members that bring all kind of skill sets to the table to advance our collective goals. But, yeah, it seems like this effort to shut down programs and initiatives that get at supporting diversity, equity and inclusion is a way to basically say, hey, it's a one size fits all. And if you don't like it, well, that's just too bad. Everyone gets a size 7 shoe. And if you don't fit a size 7, that's just too bad. I mean, literally, that's what it feels like right now.

0:11:25.4 VB: Yeah.

0:11:26.8 AS: Yeah.

0:11:26.8 DP: Fit in or go away.

0:11:33.8 AS: As a square peg. Like they're trying to fit a square peg in a round hole for everybody, it will never work. We've known this. And the same goes for education for all learners, but not just that. I mean, even how we support like children. Right? And adults. You know, not everyone who goes to therapy receives the same therapy. Not every child who goes to the doctor is gonna receive the same treatment. It's often everybody needs something different. I mean, and that's part of the reason why. And what's crazy is, like, we get the other side that talks about, you know, we should be leaving things up to the States because each State is so different. And each State should have their own power to make things go a certain way based on the demographics of their State. Because you know some States are more rural and some States have snowstorms, and some States have huge temperature spikes. Right? But that's diversity. Right?

0:12:29.9 DP: Exactly.

0:12:31.4 AS: How we provide support to different States, even based on the weather or what their workers do is... And even just going down like through that rabbit hole, like you know that people are not critically thinking when they just spew out these terms. And in support, too. Right? Like, all the people who are sitting at home being like, yeah, this is a great thing. I don't think they're thinking that through.

0:12:53.7 DP: They really aren't. And I'm glad you bring up the States. And when we understand our education systems. We were talking about this earlier. Right? Education is just so localized as a policy frame. And I'm here in Illinois, where I'm sure a lot of people have been seeing my governor, JB Pritzker out there and my mayor, Brandon Johnson in Chicago, like, really out there speaking out on behalf of the most vulnerable populations. And the message that I've been getting here in Illinois around education, despite the executive orders about, no, you cannot teach about race and diversity and equity in schools. But that's... Those are curricular standards in the State. Right? So there's a direct conflict right now. And I'm glad that I live in a... I mean, I'm lucky I live in a State where the State leadership is saying, hey, this is the law in the state of Illinois. And I want to acknowledge there's still a lot of uncertainties. Right? And, you know, on immigration, the White House just sued the State of Illinois and you know a legal complaint has been filed against Illinois and Chicago around these kind of, is it, so is it, you know, States have independence and autonomy and in relationship to the federal government. You're the lawyers. So I'm having a struggle with this.

0:14:16.4 AS: Well and that's the hard part is that there's so much unknown inconsistency out there with even just the talking points, like the hypocrisy is real and just the idea of are we fighting for and are we working towards less government or more government? Because in reality, like, you can say all day long that you want smaller government and you don't want the government in your lives as much, but then the actual policies that are being put forward by those same people, the same people who are cheering and championing these executive orders and this legislation that actually goes to put more regulation in place, telling people more what they can and cannot do. I mean, and I think in California, we are having to put forward a bunch of bills as well. You know I know our State legislature and our Attorney Grant General is working really hard to kind of combat some of the things that the attorney general or that the federal government is putting in place. Even just the idea of like banning all schools can, what the curriculum can be used, what language can be used in research project, if scientists are looking for grant funding, it's like, that's complete overreach. You really are truly small government. Leave it up to the states it makes no sense. And it's not like, it's not really in line with what our constitution provides.

0:15:43.4 VB: Well, and fear is a powerful tool and tactic. And when you really break it down to people, even if it... If you're talking education, if you're talking abortion, if you don't use these kind of hot ticket buzzwords, you know and you're just like, hey, would you be okay with a woman having a choice over... Like the majority, and they always do these polls and it's always the majority of Americans are like, yeah, I'm cool with that. Right? But the frantic kind of way in which even the news is being pushed and what this current administration wants everybody to freak out about is so that they can continue to carry out within the first hundred days, exactly what was laid out in Project 2025, which Amanda and I took a look at and had an episode on, in terms of like education.

0:16:41.0 DP: It's a really good episode.

0:16:41.1 VB: Oh, thank you so much. Thank you so much for listening. I think and just like said, we got that feedback in that, like, oh, I didn't really know you know how it was created or what it actually means. And you know, it's taken us some time to process and be in our feelings. And that's why we were excited to kind of have you on, because you are in the thick of it as well, falling under the same umbrella as us. But your take on it being localized. Right? Like, you know people are listening, they're like but what can I do? And we've said this in each and every episode. You have got to start you know even if it seems overwhelming with the other parents in the classroom, reach out, talk to them.

0:17:22.7 DP: You got to, you've got to build community. 'cause right now, the other part of my answer, in addition to therapy and make sure I have a clear head, is to go local. And you know, I recently joined my local school council at my daughter's Chicago public school.

0:17:40.4 VB: Oh, nice.

0:17:41.8 DP: So we are the governing board for this elementary school. And you know, just getting to know other parents, the teachers, the local community members, that's been giving me a lot of hope, you know, and especially, as I'm sure everyone heard, there were some federal agents at a local Chicago public school looking for an 11-year-old. I still don't fully understand what that was all about. But we are really... I'm feeling the vibes locally as very much like we are gonna protect each other and we're gonna protect these babies for sure and.

0:18:17.4 VB: Absolutely.

0:18:17.4 DP: Everyone's bringing their best thinking and it's a work in progress. But getting to know our neighbors, I feel like in an era of social media, sometimes we forget to just show up in-person. And I know with the pandemic that makes it so, you know, that made it so much harder. Right?

0:18:31.3 VB: I know.

0:18:32.0 DP: We've forgotten these skills, this muscle memory to be built back up.

0:18:36.9 AS: Yes.

0:18:37.4 VB: Yeah.

0:18:37.8 DP: And so, and that, I think that goes to the educators too, is at the end of the day within each classroom, I still think that teachers have a degree of flexibility in how they can engage with their students, what they do.

0:18:53.8 VB: Absolutely.

0:18:54.2 DP: Right. And so we have to remind ourselves that both individually and in our small localized communities, we have power. And going back to what we were talking about, how the IDEA and the civil rights movement, that was generations and the enforcement of civil rights through the Department of Education, these are the results of generations of movement building. Right? And we need to get back to that. And that movement building wasn't just massive macro level. It was in the local communities, our neighborhoods. Getting back to the neighborhood.

0:19:26.0 VB: Yes. And I think that that's such a wonderful reminder. And you know what, Amanda and I, with our little podcast are seeking, you know to try and build and provide to people you know you are not alone. That is what these tactics are made to make you feel like. And it has been, you know, another breath of fresh air to have you be on the other side of the country and doing everything that you can in your corner of the world. Right? Because we have way more in common than they would like us to think. And Dr. Poon, if people wanted to reach out to you or get to know more about the work that you're doing, how could they do that?

0:20:05.6 DP: Yeah, you can find me online. My website is oiyanpoon.com, it's O-I-Y-A-N P-O-O-N.com. It's also... The other way to find me on that website is public pedagogy. So for the education nerds out there, you know how to spell pedagogy. I know you do, publicpedagogy.info.

0:20:26.4 VB: We'll put it in the show notes.

0:20:28.4 DP: Yeah. I'm also on LinkedIn. It's OiYan Poon there, as well as on Instagram. And of course, if it's too hard to spell my name, all good. Just look up Asian American is Not a Color, and you'll find my book and how to spell my name.

0:20:43.5 VB: Oh, I love that.

0:20:43.6 AS: Wonderful. Thank you so much again for being on. We will definitely have to have you back on. And to our listeners, we hope you stay safe out there and we will talk to you soon.

0:20:51.6 VB: Bye.

0:20:51.6 AS: Bye.