[00:00:00] Nina Endrst: Hi, I'm Nina Endrst.

[00:00:05] Anna Toonk: I'm Anna Toonk.

[00:00:06] Nina Endrst: Welcome to How to Be Human.

[00:00:08] Anna Toonk: A podcast that explores the common and often confusing themes of humanness.

[00:00:12] Nina Endrst: In this episode, Anna and I discuss self-expression

[00:00:15] Anna Toonk: Take a seat, clear your mind, and let's chat.

[00:00:21] Nina Endrst: I thought about starting with, because you got this in my head the other day. Are you ready to rumble?

[00:00:29] Anna Toonk: Thank you. Are you ready?

[00:00:33] Nina Endrst: So bad. What is wrestling? It's awful.

[00:00:37] Anna Toonk: I think wrestling is drag for straight men.

[00:00:42] Nina Endrst: Oh, okay, less awful when you think. Well, why do they have, why do people want to watch other people beat the shit out of each other? Like, I don't understand boxing. I don't understand any of that. I just, let alone like men and with bad mullets, like the whole thing is just...

[00:00:59] Anna Toonk: Oh, I don't know. I kind of, I mean, some of the outfits are just so insane because... I mean, I don't think wrestling... I mean, if you're a wrestling fan, if we have some wrestler listeners, I apologize. Educate us please. You know, I don't think of it... I mean, it's based out of Florida, you know? Like WWE, and stuff like that. And yeah. Which gives you an indication of maybe what they're rooted in. So, I don't think of them as maybe being like a progressive community, which again, please like, let me know if I'm off base.

[00:01:33] Nina Endrst: Prove me wrong.

[00:01:35] Anna Toonk: Yeah, prove me wrong, I would love it. So, the outfits then become even more like what, in that context for me, that like, these men that I think are very hyper-masculine and stuff that I'm like... You realize you're wearing a Speedo and fringe, right?

[00:01:53] Nina Endrst: You are wearing a thong.

[00:01:55] Anna Toonk: Yeah.

[00:01:56] Nina Endrst: We're actually not talking about this today, but it's always fun to talk about anything with Anna.

[00:02:00] Anna Toonk: Surprise! This is a pro wrestling episode!

[00:02:03] Nina Endrst: How did you know you wanted to become a wrestler?

[00:02:06] Anna Toonk: We're going to really work out our feelings about the industry of pro wrestling.

[00:02:11] Nina Endrst: What are we talking about?

[00:02:12] Anna Toonk: We're talking about self-expression. And I mean, once again, I was a little surprised. Okay, before I give you a definition - what do you think self-expression is?

[00:02:25] Nina Endrst: Oh, the ability to open oneself in a communicative way through communication, through creative communication, or speaking, or singing... Anything that is the self coming to life. That's how I define it.

[00:02:44] Anna Toonk: I think that's a prettier definition than what it is, but...

[00:02:48] Nina Endrst: That's cause I'm just a sexy definition gal.

[00:02:52] Anna Toonk: Nina is just always serving so much sex that it's even in her definition.

[00:02:57] Nina Endrst: Yeah, no, just serving you sexual self-expression.

[00:03:01] Anna Toonk: Yeah. When I came into our session to record, she serenaded me. That's just all the raw sexuality she's always, like, bringing to the situation. It is the expression of one's feelings, thoughts, or ideas, especially in writing, art, music, or dance.

And like part of why I asked you what you thought it was is that I really thought self-expression was maybe like personal creativity or something. Like, how your creativity expressed, you know? This sounds so silly - I didn't even think about it as feelings.

Like of course it is, of course it's how you're expressing feelings, you know? I just didn't think of it that way. And something that was interesting that came up that was from a, like a mental health organization, was being able to fully express ourselves, increases our mental wellbeing and it helps us to connect with our real self, and become more balanced and happier within. When we truly express ourselves, we can explore what feelings and emotions lie within us, rather than our exterior self that we might be showing to the world.

And I thought that was really interesting of highlighting the benefit of it.

[00:04:26] Nina Endrst: Yeah, I was singing just before this. Like, no, but really singing with Milo. We were watching watching music videos again, and it just, it's amazing what singing can do. Like I've always loved music, but when you connect with the words and the feeling behind what somebody is putting out there, and then sing it yourself, I just felt such a release, but also a connection. And it's, it's like a way of meditating for me too, you know? I mean, I'm not...

[00:05:00] Anna Toonk: That's interesting.

[00:05:01] Nina Endrst: Yeah. It feels that way. It feels very meditative for me. And it feels very cleansing to sing and to move in a creative way with music to music. I totally understand why some people don't like to move with music. And sometimes I don't, but for me that really helps me, like be with my feelings.

[00:05:24] Anna Toonk: Yeah. I think I just. I really liked to emote, you know? Like I like to be...

[00:05:32] Nina Endrst: Girl, you do!

[00:05:34] Anna Toonk: I do! And it entertains me. I enjoy it, you know. And I'm like, in for a variety of reasons. But like I, when I was thinking about this episode and thinking about like, what are my views on self-expression, and like, dah, dah, dah, dah. I was like, self-expression has been so integral in like, everything for me since the jump, you know.

Like, I don't know what time I wasn't kind of like, moving through my feelings in a like, expressive way, whether that was like making art, you know? Like my mom's an artist and her background is in that, and my dad was pretty into music, even though he was, you know, an accountant. He was like a pretty artsy creative person for being in that, you know, kind of world, that I don't think emotions were super valued in my home, but self-expression was, you know.

[00:06:31] Nina Endrst: How interesting! What a disconnect.

[00:06:34] Anna Toonk: Yeah. Like, it is like...

[00:06:36] Nina Endrst: Where do you, where did they think all that stuff came from?

[00:06:40] Anna Toonk: What do you think the fuel is for this, you know? And I dance, I started dancing when I was like two, you know, like...

[00:06:49] Nina Endrst: Oh, you dance? You're a dancer?

[00:06:50] Anna Toonk: I'm a dancer, yeah. Oh my God, yeah. I've had, I haven't really dance danced at a while, but yeah, dance was a huge part of my life and I got really into it again, like in my twenties and was going to like Broadway dance.

[00:07:03] Nina Endrst: Oh, my God.

[00:07:04] Anna Toonk: Yeah.

[00:07:04] Nina Endrst: I would pay to see you do a Broadway dance.

[00:07:06] Anna Toonk: Oh, not like... Well, it's just a dance play, but it's just a place that you can take classes in the city. And I would take the hip hop dances. Oh, I thought I was a white Missy Elliott. I wore an Adidas jacket. I had the pink bottom Air Force Ones. I was like, I was taking break dancing classes. Oh, I was fully it.

[00:07:25] Nina Endrst: That is amazing. Wow.

[00:07:28] Anna Toonk: Yeah, yeah.

[00:07:28] Nina Endrst: I mean, that's good.

[00:07:30] Anna Toonk: Yeah. And now I find like, especially between clients, sometimes that moving my bod, but like, I have to dance almost like as if a goblin was moving, like they're not cool moves, you know? But sometimes...

[00:07:44] Nina Endrst: No, it's get it out of me!

[00:07:45] Anna Toonk: It's like, I almost do this thing that I call, like my monster dance, where I have to shake my upper body. And I'm like, oh, I've got to do your ogre dance, you know? But I feel so much better after I do it.

And I'm curious about for you, like lots of times when I'm doing this stuff, it's not conscious. I'm not like, whoa, that was a heavy session or, ooh, like I feel a lot has built up in my body or whatever. I'm just more like, oh, got to do my weird ogre dance, you know? Like I know I need to shake it, you know? Like I know I need to release some of that.

[00:08:14] Nina Endrst: Shrek it out.

[00:08:18] Anna Toonk: I gotta just Shrek it out. Some Hulk it down. I Shrek it out.

But I don't, it's not conscious in my head. Is it conscious in your head? Do you have language around? Are you like, oh, I need to go sing. Like I need to. Okay. Interesting.

[00:08:35] Nina Endrst: Not necessarily singing. Singing comes on a lot more naturally. It's so sad because when I was younger, I sang a lot and I used to do theater camps, and like, you know?

[00:08:46] Anna Toonk: Did you? A theater girl!

[00:08:48] Nina Endrst: You know, I don't want to brag, but I was puck, and oh...

[00:08:52] Anna Toonk: No,that is good casting right there.

[00:08:56] Nina Endrst: It's like, if I don't get the lead, I am going to kill somebody. No, I was very, I like to share, but I loved theater and I loved singing and I loved acting. But I remember being kind of squashed a few times. One was when I had a solo at school, and I felt really good, and people were very complimentary after, which was nice. Not why I did it, but nice.

And then the school like stopped doing solos after that, which I thought was kind of interesting. My dad who thinks, you know, the world is against anybody with our last name probably, which is not true, was like: "It's cause you were good. That's why." And I'm like, I don't think they stopped doing solos because a nine year old did well, but...

[00:09:39] Anna Toonk: Yeah, what a weird thing to plant in your head.

[00:09:42] Nina Endrst: Super weird thing.

[00:09:43] Anna Toonk: Like it's your fault.

[00:09:45] Nina Endrst: Yeah. Yeah. Kind of.

[00:09:46] Anna Toonk: Passive aggressively. It's like, it's your fault. You were so good. You killed solos for everyone. So weird.

[00:09:54] Nina Endrst: I know. Sorry, dad. Just telling the truth. But for me, I think that was one of the things, among many others. For many women, especially, but men of course, just like where, someone kind of sat on my voice or made it weird. And so I stopped doing that. I quit.

I was like, oh, well, everybody else is playing sports. I guess I'll just fucking play sports. I hate sports. But now it's so conscious when I move something that, especially after clients or when I, when I feel like their feelings have, you know, latched onto me or their energy.

I made a very conscious effort to move it out. And I try to even exercise, like do intuitive movement after clients or before clients, so I can be very clear, you know, going in or coming out. But I would like to know what you think is common among clients or people that you know, whereof like, how we get stuck in self-expression, or what do you think people think it is?

[00:11:09] Anna Toonk: So, when I'm like theorizing on something, I've started calling myself, Dr. Banana to keep myself grounded in that I don't know anything, but I have a theory. So I think, creativity is prized, but also it's like, coveted in our society, but it's charged. And I think if people feel like they're not creative, whether that's, you know, I can't draw or I can't sing, you know? I think people have a really limited definition of it and don't understand like, the point isn't to be good.

The point is to get your feelings out, you know. And to be saying who you are, you know. So that's one thing. I think people either stop exploring their creativity, or it gets like... I don't know if it's capitalism, I don't know what. I think it gets kind of like...

[00:12:08] Nina Endrst: It's always capitalism.

[00:12:09] Anna Toonk: It's true. When in doubt, it's capitalism. When the patriarchy is sleeping, it's capitalism.

So I think that that's a factor. And then I think sometimes when people don't know how to meet their needs or express their needs, they confuse being maybe dramatic as self-expression. And that like, for me, it's, I'm usually, like when I'm being fake dramatic, it's normally just cause it's funny to me, you know. It's literally funny to me, and I'm like being dramatic cause it's funny to me, and I'm hoping it's funny to you, you know, or whoever I'm doing it to.

And it's also been this way for me to sometimes, like, bridge gaps, you know. Like I'll be really dramatic to my mom cause my mom's not particularly dramatic. So it's my way of like, I'm gonna hype it up so we can like laugh about it together you know. I've found it's been this way to open up dialogue sometimes, you know, of like, I'm taking it to this extreme so we can talk about it like in the middle, you know.

But I hear sometimes with girlfriends and stuff, this building of like something. Like energy, emotion, something, you know, that feels disproportionate to like what they're even either talking about, or like what they're trying to express that feels like this actual big buildup of unreleased self-expression, you know, that it's like, literally you're not emoting in any way.

And I know like for a lot of clients, sometimes I'm like, you know what, I'm a big fan. And we talk about this actually in DPC a lot, because like deathaversaries and birthdays and things like that are, are charged, and something that people are like, I think, looking for community around of how do you do that? And stuff like that.

So, we've talked about that some years, like you do want to be sad. That is just nice that you're like, I just want to sit and be sad about my ghost dad. And it can be nice to also have this day that you're allowed to be sad. And I feel like sometimes with clients or friends or people, I'm like, you can just be sad.

Like this weekend, if you want, play a little Fiona Apple, you know. Like, maybe have a little tree and just be in your feels. It's okay. Like the world's not gonna end. You're not going to get lost to this. I think people are so afraid that they're going to get lost in it. It feels very like queen of cups energy, where I'm like, you have to trust you're not going to get lost in this sea of emotion. You'll come back. Like, and if anything too, the release of it in some way, whether it's like, I'm gonna let myself be sad this, this weekend, and I'm gonna, you know, I've been a little blue, I'm down about the pandemi. I hate that, like, people don't believe in science. Like, I'm gonna let myself just be down this weekend.

I think there's a lot to be said for that. And so, it's like have some fun with it. Be dramatic, you know. Watch that movie that makes you cry every time.

[00:15:08] Nina Endrst: Works for us.

[00:15:09] Anna Toonk: Yeah, I mean, it's like, I'm a happier person for it. And I'm also clearer. It helps me really figure out how I feel about something. Cause I'll be like: Do you really feel that way?

But I'm also the same person too, who, you know, I'm inviting our members to join our Discord. I don't even really know what Discord is, but I'm acting like I care a lot about it. I mean, I care about us connecting with everybody. But I literally texted to Nina. I was like, I'm like the smokey bear for hurt feelings, only you can prevent crying.

[00:15:42] Nina Endrst: So true.

[00:15:46] Anna Toonk: That to me is funny. Like I like bits, you know? I'm like, I like this bit of like, I'm terrorizing people to join stuff, so I'm not sad cause that's not really my personality. I don't really care what anyone does. So it's like funny to me. I don't know. I mean, maybe I'm just crazy. Maybe I'm revealing I'm a psychopath, I don't know.

[00:16:04] Nina Endrst: Well, you are crazy, but in a good way, and if that, if that matters.

I think to your point, people who think they're not creative. I think it's hard for them to imagine getting that it's unproductive, like doing something that's not productive. That's what I was gonna say. And so it's like back to what you were saying about the feelings. I think a lot of people are scared to be sad, or they don't understand how to come out of that.

And I find that with meditation as well, like people worrying about getting lost in the meditation or not being able to come back to this reality, if they, which you're not leaving reality or just, you know.

[00:16:44] Anna Toonk: Yeah.

[00:16:45] Nina Endrst: At least you shouldn't be.

[00:16:49] Anna Toonk: Yeah, hopefully, you're not.

[00:16:51] Nina Endrst: Should, should is not a word I like to say, but please don't leave Earth. You're here.

But I think it's this feeling of, if I slow down enough to feel my feelings, to express my feelings, to get lost in art. I mean, all my husband does all day is paint, right? I mean, that's his job, and I think so many people can not understand how that is a thing. But he's in his world, and he's expressing himself and the way he sees things, and then other people are moved by it. I mean, that's incredible.

[00:17:22] Anna Toonk: Yeah, it is.

[00:17:24] Nina Endrst: So, I think the conversation of productivity and, you know, if it doesn't have like a specific meaning, or it's not a class, you know, there's no certificate, it's hard for people to put it someplace. And it's like, what if just expressing yourself was the point. That was it.

[00:17:43] Anna Toonk: Right. Right. And I think also too, people have this narrow minded idea of creativity. And it's one of my oldest friends is always like: Oh, I'm not creative like you, I'm not creative like you. And I'm like, but you are. You manage a large team. You have kids. Like, you do creative problem solving all the time.

[00:18:05] Nina Endrst: I think your creativity is intimidating for a lot of people. And I don't mean to say that...

[00:18:10] Anna Toonk: Yeah, but I don't believe there's anyone who isn't creative. I mean, it maybe doesn't come natural to you. It's maybe not, you know, in the classical very narrow definition. Like, I've always been a really creative person, but like, I'm not that good at drawing, you know. Like I'm not that good at some of the traditional things, but my initials are literally A.R.T..

Yeah. So it was a little confusing for a while of I'm like, I really feel like that's stuff I'm supposed to be doing, but I don't, I don't understand. And when I was a little kid, I wanted to be an archeologist, and then I was like, hm, I don't love the heat. And it seems like a lot of it is being places and being really hot.

But also I was like, that's going to be a lot of science in school. I don't know about that. And, I got my first camera. Well, I'd had cameras when I was a little kid as well. I'd always sort of had cameras, and Polaroids, and been into it, and had been the little kid who would be like, you know, at family stuff, like, can I have the camera, you know, and take photos and stuff like that.

But then I was like, oh, I could maybe like, do this, you know? And that became such a tool for me, I think, to also, like start figuring out that process of like, you feel something, something sparks in you, you want to go kind of outward with it and like, you don't know why. That's been a thing for me, like kind of my whole life.

I know I feel this and I wanna like, connect with other people with it. I don't know why. I don't know what it means. It's not like manipulative. I'm not trying to say this is the conversation, but more I'm like, I thought this was cool. What do you think? You know, it's like, I want to be in conversation with people and self-expression really helped me figure out, like, who I should be in conversation with, in a lot of ways.

But literally if like, who should I talk to, to kind of metaphorically of like, who should be in my circle and around me,

Self-expression is like a really good way, I think, to protect yourself of people who maybe wanna dampen your spirit as well, because it's always been very revealing to me. People tell on themselves all the time. So, because I am expressive when people are like, whoa or whatever. I'm like, no, you're maybe not good for me.

I don't need it to be affirmed to me just like the way I am, when there's nothing wrong with it, that I'm too much. Like, I, that's just not a good thing for me. I may be too much for that person, you know, which is their deal, and that's fine. But like, it's not a message I want to have echoed back to me all the time, by like a friend.

It's just not going to work for me, you know? So that's a thing too, that it's like, you don't have to like put up comparison, or be like, well, cause I'm not a painter or something, I don't need to express myself. Like, it benefits all of us. It's a tool, I think, to get things out of your body, so that you can like, sort of see what are these things telling me, what are they pointing me towards.

And then who are the people kind of in support of that in my life. It can serve all these purposes, besides just like a side hustle, you know. Like, it's not just about income streams. Like you said, productivity, like, I hadn't even thought about that aspect of it, but it kind of makes me laugh sometimes, like when people would be like, I don't know, like why should I sit around all weak and sad and blah, blah, blah? I'm like, okay, well, denying you feel that way, how's that going for you?

[00:21:51] Nina Endrst: Well, actually, you led me to my next question point, and something that I'd like to explore.

[00:21:56] Anna Toonk: Yeah, let's do it. Let's be archeologists of self-expression.

[00:21:59] Nina Endrst: But like sitting comfortably. And at a temperature where we're both happy with.

[00:22:05] Anna Toonk: It's true. Yes.

[00:22:07] Nina Endrst: My question was what happens when you don't? And you being us, right? I don't see people. I was talking to a client this morning, and another one of my clients. It just happens a lot. So, people love to see me when they are like in the shit, right? And that happens to you too. Like, you're their best fucking friend, they need a session now, when they're in it, right?

But if they're doing something that maybe, they don't want to talk about or express...

[00:22:39] Anna Toonk: Oh, that's my fave.

[00:22:41] Nina Endrst: They just are like, I'm gonna have to cancel that. Um, something came up. And I'm like, oh, did it? So was it your ex-boyfriend? Is that what's up? So, it's not from a place of judgment. I want to be very clear on that.

I think everybody I work with hopefully knows that, and I've expressed that a lot. But it's interesting that the lack of self-expression of like, and it starts with, I believe, telling ourselves the truth. The truth is this. I feel this. I need to stay in and cry this weekend. Right? Or, I need to just be wherever I am, or whatever.

Like, if we lie to ourselves, how are we ever supposed to express ourselves outwardly, right? It doesn't happen. So I think a lot of people misunderstand how to get honest and express themselves to themselves before it moves anywhere, you know? There is no goal other than you getting to know yourself, me getting to know myself, so that we can feel better.

I mean, isn't that all what we're all looking for? Like to feel good, to feel safe, to feel, you know, relatively or pretty happy. Like, that's it. That's the goal. And if something comes of it, which is amazing, and benefits, you know, your bank account or whatever, like, fantastic. But it's really interesting to me, the avoidance around expressing ourselves privately.

[00:24:14] Anna Toonk: Yeah.

[00:24:15] Nina Endrst: I talk to myself a lot because it's how I hold myself accountable outside of like, doing like specific work, like throughout the day. I've said that here before, where if something hits me or someone makes me upset or I feel mad, they don't make me upset. I feel mad or upset because of something that's happened.

I'm like, well, what was that? And why do you think you feel that way, you know? Because just sent firing off a text to somebody or whatever. Even like, what am I gonna like, paint a picture in that moment? That's not me, you know?

[00:24:48] Anna Toonk: So I whip out my canvas... Move over. It's my turn.

[00:24:53] Nina Endrst: Well, it's, it's really hard for me personally to paint anything, to draw anything, and it's kind of sad, but it's not really. It's never really been my medium, but also that's okay. And I think for a long time, I didn't think I was creative, which is ridiculous because everything I love is so rooted in that and is inherently just like creative and artistic or, you know, moving in some way.

That's how I think of art and feel about art. It moves me, whatever it is. But I didn't think I was creative for a long time. And that caused me pain.

[00:25:29] Anna Toonk: Yeah, I could see that. Cause that's insane. It's insane for you to think you're not creative, you know. Like, I think you're a deeply creative person.

[00:25:36] Nina Endrst: Right?

[00:25:37] Anna Toonk: It may not be like traditional applications, which I think I'm similar, you know, like I'm really well versed and knowledgeable.

[00:25:45] Nina Endrst: You are a traditionalist.

[00:25:47] Anna Toonk: But I think it's interesting. And self-expression is all about honesty, you know? And it's interesting that we're doing this, recording this on the heels of vulnerability, because they're so intertwined and that, you know. I don't know, I think I'm really grateful that my mom is very self-expressive and it's through all aspects of her life.

You know, when you're like, in one of her interiors, like, you know. I don't know how to describe it, but like, she's just very self-expressive, you know? And so for me, I think being raised by someone like that, I'm really grateful that I sort of started figuring some of that out at a really young age, you know?

Because I think when I did hit, you know, speed bumps or was like, ooh, it feels like something wants to come out. Like I don't, you know, like, woo. I don't know what to do with that. You know, like, I had built up some tools I had known. So, I guess about two years ago, I started trying to make a tarot deck. It's been, it's not gone well it's, or it's not going well.

It's been completely shelved at this point, but I couldn't figure it out. And honestly, I think it's because I was supposed to be doing other work. But I was like, well, while I'm trying to figure this out, like, let me at least do this, you know? And it's really funny, and I'll have to show you at some point. Hopefully, y'all will have gone to the website, and you will see that we have like a brand new, beautiful website.

A lot of my reference of what I wanted to do for the deck is essentially what the website has turned into. And I'm like, huh, that's interesting. Was I picking up on something and what I thought I was like failing at was like, actually just wasn't the timeline for it? You know, I don't know. Who knows, you know. I wouldn't rule out a deck. I think I'm still gonna make one at some point, or we'll make one, we'll figure it out.

Anyway. TBD where this is now a production meeting and it's a podcast. But, I was talking to my friend Juliana, who's an artist and does bodywork, and she's just someone who I really trust to have some of those conversations with about, I think, process, or of being like, hey! Like, creative to creative, cause I don't really call myself an artist.

And I was like, I'm having issues. Like, I think what you're struggling with is, like, you, you really care, and you forgotten how to push past the fear. She's like the fear is always gonna be there. That fear of like, what am I doing? Or do I have something to say? Or is this worthy, or what?

She's like all of that is always going to crop up. She's like, you're just rusty. You're rusty at pushing through it and building up your resistance and just making your work, you know? And I was grateful to her because for a couple of weeks I would do a daily creative meditation, and she said, I'm happy to witness, you know?

So like just take a photo and text it to me. Like, I'm not gonna give notes. I'm not gonna critique you or anything. I'll just acknowledge, you know? And we did that for a little bit, and then I didn't need her to witness for me, but she helped me, you know? Like, I went to Parsons, like I went to, I have a BFA, like creative process is not new to me.

I'm someone like trained in it. And it was good to be reminded of it and good to be reminded of like, oh, duh, she's right. I've been creative in terms of like, thinking of workshops or marketing materials or whatever. But that was like for a goal. I haven't been creative just to get my feelings out in a long time. And it's a different process, and all this fear was coming up.

And I had forgotten about that. I had just forgotten about when you're doing something creative sometimes, like that comes up! That's like what you have to build up that muscle to push past it and be like: I don't care. I don't care if it is dumb. I just know I'm supposed to do this right now, you know? And build up that, that tolerance, that tolerance of being uncomfortable. Self-expression is uncomfortable.

You're putting something out there, and hoping people don't reject you for it, essentially. I think. So, it's okay, if that feels daunting. It is, you know?

[00:30:08] Nina Endrst: Yeah. And I think that it's what do you think about creative people who have an easy time, like putting out. Or what do you think about this in general? Not pit the people, but putting out an idea...

[00:30:21] Anna Toonk: Are we gonna rank friends now? No, I'm kidding.

[00:30:23] Nina Endrst: Yeah, who's the worst? No. Who can put out something like a book or...?

[00:30:32] Anna Toonk: I'm so deeply admiring of them. Like already I'm like...

[00:30:35] Nina Endrst: I know, I'm like not done with the question.

[00:30:36] Anna Toonk: I know, but I'm like,

[00:30:38] Nina Endrst: You wanna write a book. I wanna write a book. We all wanna write books. It's shit. It looks like a fucking... like real job. It takes time, Anna. Who can write a book, who can write a song, who can perform or whatever, but may have a hard time expressing themselves in like interpersonal relationships.

[00:30:56] Anna Toonk: Oh, that's an in... Okay.

[00:30:58] Nina Endrst: I think, I think that sometimes the work falls flat. And I don't mean that people won't resonate with it, but I think that the deeper the individual is going in their relationships, the more deeply it's felt.

[00:31:15] Anna Toonk: Yeah. That's really interesting. And it sort of relates back to my, we alone don't determine our fuckability, but it's so tricky, I think, with self-expression of like, you know, if you do a book or you, you make a painting. Well, one, I think it depends on what is the intention? Are you making it for you, or are you making it for an audience? You know? And I think most people, if you're writing a book, it's both, you know?

I think it's like, you're hoping to work something out, or heal something, or get clarity around something in this process, and you're hoping that it, other people relate to it or connect to it, you know? So, if you don't know how to relate and connect to people, then, like, how are you going to do something that does that? And I do think, I think it's tricky. Like, you know, I was in this writing with vulnerability in my class, and we've stayed together.

And it's interesting cause there's people who are professional writers, and there's people who are aspiring writers. And then there's people who are like, ooh, that's appealing to me. I don't know that I really want to be a writer, but I just think it's a tool and it's something I like. And I kind of like all forms of self-expression, you know? I'm just drawn to them.

I think writing can be a really powerful way to like self-witness, and things like that. So I don't know that I care about ever being published. I mean, I don't know. I mean, my ego's like, it'd be cool, but like, I don't know. I mean, people seem to like talking about how horrific it is to write a book, then they do talk about like, it was fun.

I mean, no one complains more about writing than writers. So, it's like hilarious to me. Like, I follow so many writers on Twitter and stuff, and they're all like, ugh, writing, like, why is this the thing that fuels me? And I think that's the same about like actors and stuff too. They're like, I sort of hate that this is the only thing I wanna do.

Cause it's not an easy life. It's not an easy path. And that process, I think of saying - I've reacted to something, or this is something I'm really obsessed with. I want to find connection and community with that, like, via some form of self-expression, like, is hard. And I think that hope of it being. It's like, you can't hope that like, everybody loves it, but I think your hope is that it's like, received with the intention you put it out.

And so I think if you, and it's just kind of, it's been interesting in this writing class, and like getting to know people better because it's like, I know them in such an intimate way in some ways of like, you know, they're like, I'm writing this piece, that's about this thing in my family or whatever.

And you're like, whoa, that's some stuff, you know? And I mean, there's been people who've read pieces in this class that we've like wept about, you know? And it wasn't, it was an incredibly personal piece, but it's like, you can tell that some of those people who do that, they get intention and they get people.

So, I do think it's really rare that someone can be like a true kind of hermit, or really people-limited or something, I think, in making something people really resonate from, you know, or resonate with. But I also know there's been some artists that were incredibly... I mean like Georgia O'Keeffe, for example. People really resonate with her stuff.

Is it just because it looks like vaginas? I don't know, but she led a kind of private life, like, wasn't out in the world, you know?

[00:34:40] Nina Endrst: I think what I'm interested in is not necessarily like... Although I do think that is fascinating and I, myself love being a hermit, but I also like...

[00:34:51] Anna Toonk: It's true.

[00:34:51] Nina Endrst: Very much so.

[00:34:52] Anna Toonk: I hadn't thought about that. Yeah. Okay.

[00:34:54] Nina Endrst: But I think it's how much you engage in... I mean, I talk to people also all day long, you know what I mean?

[00:35:01] Anna Toonk: Yeah.

[00:35:01] Nina Endrst: And it's not like I'm not in the world. I'm just not like physically in the world. But my point was more like, how honest can we be with anybody else, no matter what we're doing, if we're not expressing ourselves to ourselves?

[00:35:15] Anna Toonk: Oh, well, I mean, this, to me, I've experienced more in dating, but like people who lie to themselves, will lie to you. Period. Cause they don't even know that they're doing it.

But I think with like creative expression, I do think it falls flat, but I think it's more like can, I should say, it can. But it's that like macro micro sometimes of like whether or not to, you can toggle between. Like, I don't know if you've had a conversation with a friend who was like working on something and they're struggling to understand that, like, what they're really hung up on is not universal.

So, that does limit the scope of who's going to connect to that, you know? And they're like, but this is my experience. It's like, yeah, exactly. It's your experience. So like, how invested is anyone else going to be, you know? Like you have to give people a reason to care. So one of my photo teachers was Charlie Harbutt, who was one of the founders of Magnum the photo agency.

And he was like this. I mean, he was like one of my heroes, and I got into his class, and I was like, oh my gosh, you know? And he was just like, he was so over it at that point and old. I mean, like, pretty old at that point. And it was just... But he didn't just understand the mechanics of how to be a good documentary photographer of like, you know, you gotta be in the action, you gotta put yourself out there, like, you have to get in people's face.

He was like, you kind of have to be an asshole and be okay with that, you know? Like, you kind of can't care about people's feelings. Like, you were trying to document life. Like, that is what drives you. And I was like, oh, I don't know about that. Like, I'm going to feel really bad, you know? But something, he said is if people are always attracted to the truth.

If what you were photographing, if what you are making work around is the truth, you will always find an audience for it because people are naturally voyeuristic. He's like, we naturally gravitate towards the truth.

[00:37:11] Nina Endrst: That's what I'm saying.

[00:37:13] Anna Toonk: Yeah. So I agree with you in that regard of like... But I think, uh, like not to get too, like, whoa, man, let's get into the specifics of this. I think if you don't realize you're lying, it can still like connect with people.

[00:37:28] Nina Endrst: Yeah, with other people who don't realize they are.

[00:37:31] Anna Toonk: Yeah. Cause I think sometimes we worked through truth in stages, you know? So I think if you're actively trying to uncover something, it can still connect with people, even if you're not there yet, you know?

[00:37:43] Nina Endrst: A hundred percent.

[00:37:43] Anna Toonk: But if you're like, I'm trying to purport myself. Like, I remember this woman I knew, like self published this book on Amazon and it was like a wellness book, and she could not understand why it wasn't taking off. And I was like, it's not a judgment about self publishing versus, like being picked up by a publisher or whatever, but I was like, you've taken out all these things that would have given you a reference for, like what people wanted to hear from you.

Like you've removed these obstacles, like, kind of you removed the competition, you've done it all. And like you missed that people don't want to hear about this from you. Not what people are asking for from you, you know? Like it was just really interesting and it's like, was she lying? No, but was she in denial about what people like gravitated towards?

[00:38:36] Nina Endrst: But don't you think that's a lie? Like unintentional? Don't you think denial is...?

[00:38:41] Anna Toonk: Ugh, I don't know. I have such a complicated relationship with denial that my therapist has to like constantly remind me when people are in denial, they really don't know. I'm like, but don't they a little bit, like on some level, you know? And she's like, no, Anna, that is not how a denial works. I'm like...

[00:38:55] Nina Endrst: You are like, give me a loophole, give me a loophole.

[00:38:57] Anna Toonk: I'm like, come on! They have to know a little bit!

[00:38:59] Nina Endrst: Also, we are not talking and I'm not talking about, and I don't think Anna is either, about self-expression just for like financial gain or anything that like, for other people, it's not like, where's the hole in the market, like nobody's saying only...

[00:39:13] Anna Toonk: No, I mean, but it's... Think about like, when you've hung out though, with a group of friends and like a friend comes in and they're wearing like, black lipstick. And you're like, whoa, who joined us. Who's goth now? Like, if it was your friend who takes risks, like, you didn't think much about it, and you were like, oh, that's cool. But if it was your friend who, you know, like, wants to like marry a guy in finance, and live in Connecticut, you're like, what is happening, you know?

[00:39:39] Nina Endrst: But also, like, poor, Sarah. Because, like what if Sarah doesn't really know if she wants to marry the guy in finance and she's trying on another...

[00:39:49] Anna Toonk: I'm all for it. I think like, but there's honesty in that, if you're like, I'm kind of experimenting. I'm trying something out. I'm like...

[00:39:56] Nina Endrst: Yeah, my point is the people on the other side, it's so unfortunate because we don't realize how much we shut other people down when we do things like that, right? Because it might've taken our imaginary Sarah all of the courage to be like, I'm gonna buy the lipstick, I'm gonna take it back to my house, and then I'm gonna put it on. And then I'm gonna leave the house. And it only takes like, one person to be like - are you really wearing black lipstick right now? For someone to be like - oh, I guess I'll go back in my box.

And I feel like, that is such a sad thing to watch happen to people. And it's happened to me a million times. I just really have like, pushed as much through that, like, I can't give a fuck what you think about me, you know? And it's the way I express myself. But even think about like going to school as a kid.

[00:40:48] Anna Toonk: Ugh, yes.

[00:40:50] Nina Endrst: RIght? And what you were wearing was like fucking on display and teachers would comment on it. And teachers... you would get potentially kicked. I mean, I did. Not for wearing things that were like revealing, but like, I wore like, "Jesus is my Homeboy" shirts, and like, I was like - you don't know that Jesus isn't my homeboy. And they're like - we do though.

[00:41:18] Anna Toonk: Well, I think about like the projection of like, what type of person you are. Like, I used to wear Vaseline with craft glitter, pressed into it, to school, you know? And it's amazing I both, like, didn't get an eye infection and was able to get it off.

[00:41:33] Nina Endrst: Why do people put Vaseline on their eyes?

[00:41:35] Anna Toonk: Why?! It was the worst. And my eyes are so sensitive, they were like, what are you doing?

But I think that's also why I've beca... Well, I'll be curious if, like, what we do for living changes for you, but I've always been like a cheerleader for people's self-expression, and a lot. And been like, oh, like you're kind of thinking of breaking out of your mold? Like, how can I support you? You know, like I've been into that.

I think where I started shutting people down, like inadvertently is, if you tell me you want something for yourself, like... This comes up a lot more with my friends and like dating in recent years. If you tell me you're ready to settle down, find, you know, el uno, and have some kids and stuff, like, I take that seriously.

So if you're telling me that, and I'm holding that hope and intention for you, and then you're like - I'm dating this guy. He doesn't wanna be my boyfriend, but I think I'm going to see what happens. Like, I have a hard time, not going, like, what are you doing? This is...

[00:42:30] Nina Endrst: That's completely different.

[00:42:31] Anna Toonk: I, yeah, but it is self-expression, you know?

[00:42:34] Nina Endrst: Right, that's a good friend in my opinion. Like one that people don't always want, but it's true.

[00:42:41] Anna Toonk: It doesn't always go well, doesn't it?

[00:42:43] Nina Endrst: It sure doesn't.

[00:42:44] Anna Toonk: Cause, I'm like, I'm not judging. I don't ultimately give a shit what you do. You know like, I love you, you're my friend, I don't care. As long as you're not harming me, I don't care, you know? But that's where I've had to learn. I'm not their coach. Like, it doesn't matter. Like, I have to like divorce myself and also remember all the time we say things and then do different things, and we can want something, but it's . So scary that like the way we go about getting it is kind of nuts.

So I'm curious with you, and I know we're going to start to wrap up in a second, but I'm curious if like the work we do for living, like, did that change your ability to cheerlead people's self-expression?

[00:43:23] Nina Endrst: I've always been the person who cheerleads people's self-expression like that. I mean, because I always wanted that for myself. And it wasn't that I was just being selfish, but I tried to treat people the same way. And I liked seeing individuals because I didn't really see a lot of that.

So we had this girl in our school, who I won't name, but she was like pretty edgy. Like she, some people would say she was goth. I don't think she was goth, but people were terrified of her.

[00:43:50] Anna Toonk: Connecticut goth?

[00:43:51] Nina Endrst: She was. She wore her polo a little ripped. No, I'm kidding. I'm kidding. No, she had like, all different color hairs and that hair and like, you know, she was, she's pretty punk.

She was pretty punk. And I thought she was fucking awesome. And she knew that I thought she was awesome. And I would tell her she was awesome all the time. And people were so scared of her. And I remember when we grew up and like, had gone through camp together and blah, blah, blah. And we were in high school and we were getting our fake IDs, and nobody wanted to go up to her and ask her to get us our IDs.

And I was like, are you guys for real? Like, you're scared of her because she has fucking orange hair? And so, I of course did, but it hasn't changed anything for me. It's only made my work feel, make sense in such a different way, because I've been doing this all my life. Like I've been encouraging people to be themselves for as long as I can remember. Sitting on the playground, being like, who cares, what they think? Like, just do you, you know?

And so it, like, it clearly evolved, you know, the way it was meant to, but I hate seeing other people do it. And I understand it comes from a place of pain and insecurity, and I try... That has changed, I will say. I used to judge bullies. I used to judge people that were judgmental of creative people, and now I'm like, oh, I know what you're doing and I know why you're doing it.

[00:45:14] Anna Toonk: Yeah. That's so interesting. Cause my mom. It's so weird. Cause I'm like, you made me like this. And then when I would be like, I'm gonna do this! And she'd be like, *gasp*, you know? And I had to always see that like, she's trying to protect me, and like, what she was reacting to as a mother is like, you're going to put yourself out there and therefore you're vulnerable.

You know? So now it's so different. I used to always hear this like criticism more, you know? And I was so sensitive when I would hear it from someone else. I would just be like, forget them, you know? And now I am like, oh, it's usually it's fear-based and it's often, I think, wanting to protect someone. It's like, I want to keep you safe, don't do that. You know?

And I think with our friends that we can be that way, you know? Like you maybe don't think of that, or I don't, but like, I'm also the same person who's like, oh, did that person hurt you? I will cut them. You know, like so...

[00:46:05] Nina Endrst: Cut them.

[00:46:07] Anna Toonk: Yeah!

[00:46:07] Nina Endrst: Cut 'em.

[00:46:09] Anna Toonk: Cut 'em. That is us.

[00:46:11] Nina Endrst: I have to end with the kids I used to babysit for like long, long, long time ago. When they would get back from elementary school, I'd be like, you have a good day at school today? And they're like, yeah. I'm like anybody, anybody mess with you? They're like, no, like they were like...

[00:46:24] Anna Toonk: They were like scared to tell you.

[00:46:26] Nina Endrst: I was like, I will go there. And they're like, we know you will.

[00:46:30] Anna Toonk: We know! Well, you know, we're not, we have zero doubt, in fact.

[00:46:35] Nina Endrst: I think we should... Think we should close with a little homework, if you're up to it. Like an offering of some soul work of what you might consider doing or participating in to step into like some self-expression. What would your hot tip be? What is your hot tip item?

[00:46:55] Anna Toonk: Go back to what you like to do as a kid. If you have no idea where to start, I think taking classes can be helpful as well to have some guard rails and to feel vulnerable like in a group can be encouraging. But also going back to what you enjoyed as a kid. If you liked painting, get some paints.

I was really into beads. I go back to that sometimes when I feel a little stuck, you know? And trust that sometimes when you just let yourself be creative for the sake of being creative and therefore expressing yourself just for the sake of expressing yourself, it is a form of meditation. So, come back to that.

If it feels like I don't have the time, or I don't have the luxury of exploring this or whatever, I've never not benefited from giving... I call it my visioning time. I've never not benefited from doing that. Something has always come to me of, like, I know I should do this or whatever.

Or releasing those feelings allowed me to be clear, to figure out where I needed to orient myself in the world. So I think we spend adulthood returning to who we were like at six. So, start there. Your inner child is always gonna help you the most with self-expression, creativity, and love. So go back, go ask them, take your inner child on a creative date.

If that makes you feel creepy, because it did mean when people would tell me to go on dates with my inner child, just think about what your six-year-old self would like to do and start there.

[00:48:24] Nina Endrst: Yeah. And I would just add to that, like, just be open to surprising yourself. You didn't plan your day. My kid has a lot of choice. We are very blessed to have all the toys. And he is, was inside before I walked out here, playing with a piece of tape, and the tape, the circle that the tape comes on. And he's like, look, mom and dad! I was like, wow, it's tape! He's like, no, it's, uh, you know, I think it was an octopus.

But like, he didn't have a plan going in there, I can assure you. He just, he saw something, he's open, and that is so inspiring. So yeah, that, just invite the little you in. You don't have to like, go for coffee yet. You can just like, hang out and like introduce yourself.

[00:49:11] Anna Toonk: You don't want to go on date.

[00:49:14] Nina Endrst: You don't wanna be a fucking creep, just stay open.

Thanks for joining us.

[00:49:24] Anna Toonk: Thank you! See you next time!

[00:49:27] Nina Endrst: We'll never see you. Well, we'll see you, but not here. Good day.

That's all for today's episode.

[00:49:38] Anna Toonk: If there's a topic you want us to discuss, please submit it on our website at thesoulunity.com/howtobehuman.

[00:49:44] Nina Endrst: If you want to connect with other thoughtful humans, please join us at the Soul Unity. Listeners get two weeks free by going to our website and visiting our podcast page.

[00:49:53] Anna Toonk: Thanks for listening. And remember we're guides, not gurus.