Nathan Wood (00:00)

So, episode one.

Briony Brock (00:03)

Episode one.

Nathan Wood (00:05)

Feels like the right time.

Briony Brock (00:06)

It really does.

Nathan Wood (00:08)

Shall we get into it?

Briony Brock (00:10)

Yes, let's.

Nathan Wood (01:11)

So, because this is the very first episode and the listeners don't know who we are, it's probably a good idea for us to share a bit of background on why we both wanted to do this podcast. So, Briony what's your motivation for doing it?

Briony Brock (01:28)

So I'm passionate about all things cricket ⁓ and all things mindset really. And it's a no brainer. You and I have had so many conversations over the past nine months where it's felt like actually maybe this could be worthwhile to somebody listening at whatever level of cricket they play. And so it's kind of made natural sense to join the podcast community.

Nathan Wood (01:52)

Yeah, it's a big step actually, isn't it? And, just setting up a podcast isn't that easy. So we've got here. What about your background in terms of cricket and, mindset coaching and psychology?

Briony Brock (01:59)

we have.

So cricket, I kind of started playing when I was about 10. Did a bit of kind of county age group stuff through, I came through Buckinghamshire. Played other sports too, so it wasn't necessarily a big priority. And then I got into coaching in 2017. So I was the first All Stars activator. So leading on those first All Stars sessions in the early days. Coaching's kind of gone from there.

And then I did a degree in psychology and a master's degree in sports psychology, which has kind of got me onto the mindset side of things. And I think while I work in all different sports, cricket is just, and as we'll get onto probably, it's just so much about mindset, know, especially as the standards have got higher, the S&C has got higher, it's more professionalised. The mindset's what makes a difference. So yeah, that's how I got into it.

Nathan Wood (03:01)

You're absolutely right. I mean, yes, psychology mindset applies to every sport, doesn't it? In every situation actually in life, but cricket in particular, I think it is unique in so much as, well, as a batter, you've got that sudden death element where even if it's not your fault, you could be run out by your own partner. You could be given out LBW — bad decision, your game's over. You know, you've got a long time to dwell on it.

Briony Brock (03:28)

So Nathan, what about you then? What got you into cricket in the first place and then the mindset side of things?

Nathan Wood (03:36)

Well I've been involved in cricket for a very long time Briony you know — I'm a vintage age now... I was born into it so my dad was a very good player — played first-class cricket Yorkshire, Lancashire, Derbyshire — captain of Derbyshire — played for England. My mum didn't work so I kind of followed him — became a play myself — was not as good as him

⁓

Briony Brock (04:02)

technically

or do you think your mindset held you back?

Nathan Wood (04:06)

my mindset definitely held me back. Technically, I mean it's hard to say. In those days, there wasn't that much video footage of players in the seventies when my dad played. I did see him. I did play with him — he was a fine player. I think it was more, I think he had more desire, actually, if I'm being brutally honest. I think desire is so important in so much as it enables you to push on when things get really tough. If you love something so much, actually you find a way of pushing on. He lived for the game. I mean, I love the game, but he lived for it. And I think perhaps growing up in his shadow, that might have had a psychological effect. Well, I know it did actually, being called son of, you know as opposed to trying to earn your own kind of reputation. So yeah, I followed him. I played professionally a bit — played at Lancashire.

I actually finished Briony at 26, which is the average age that somebody finishes professional cricket in this country, believe it or not. Yeah. Yeah. Amazing, isn't it? And that, you know, that consists of people

Briony Brock (05:16)

Is it? Really? 26? Yeah.

Nathan Wood (05:25)

kind of dropping out after a year or two in professional cricket. And then it's balanced out by those who play, you know, into the early thirties, maybe forties, but yeah, I think the average age in terms of stats is 26, which is bonkers, but I felt an old man at 26 actually when I finished.

Briony Brock (05:28)

One and done, yeah.

That's sort of... yeah.

That's quite... it's a stark contrast to the recreational game though, isn't it? Where it kind of brings enjoyment to people, like into their 70s you see people playing. Don't you in village sides?

Nathan Wood (05:52)

Well, there's an England, I think there's an England over, definitely an England over fifties. I think there might be an England over seventies. So there's hope, there's hope, Briony, for me yet.

Briony Brock (05:56)

yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Nathan Wood (06:02)

yeah, so I played a bit then I kind of did a bit of coaching, got into coach development. So, coaching the coaches — had a bit of a stint at England cricket. Looked after Level Four.

Briony Brock (06:08)

Hmm.

Was that an interest because of your experience having been coached?

Nathan Wood (06:21)

Yeah, so I went through the coaching pathway. I did my Level Three, I did my Level Four and I really enjoyed the presenters coming in and giving some high level insights into lots of different things actually. But the one thing, the one module on Level Four, particularly that I really enjoyed was the psych module, the psychology module. It was David Young who came in and delivered that, who was the England psychologist

Briony Brock (06:42)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Nathan Wood (06:50)

for many years, actually at England cricket, he was the one who was in post when they won the World Cup And I just thought it was fascinating.

You know, this is not something for, you know, professional players. It's for everybody, isn't it?

Briony Brock (06:59)

Yeah.

Yeah, seven year olds get upset when they get out. Seventeen year olds get upset when they get out. It's difficult for everybody

Nathan Wood (07:13)

and I think that I've seen a lot of players who have had so much talent, but underperformed and not reached their potential. And conversely, I've seen loads of people who you thought, well, they're not that talented actually, but they've gone to the very top. And the common denominator there was, was the mindset approach.

Briony Brock (07:35)

Yes.

Nathan Wood (07:38)

So do you see the same issues that young players have when it comes to the mental side of the game as older and more established players?

Briony Brock (07:48)

I think so. I think it kind of ebbs and flows a little bit in terms of where they're at, because it also impacted on your environment. So they could maybe be have a, I don't know, a positive mindset and seem to deal with things quite well. And then they might get into a kind of county age group system. And then that could present new challenges. Suddenly, they feel like they're being assessed all the time, or they're being watched. And, and you might see a similar pattern in a more developed player whose place in this team is under question. It's sort of, there's synergies, I suppose, between journeys. There's times when you're feeling really good and things are going well and you feel secure. And then there are times when you're not. And I think particularly if you are somebody that plays recreational cricket over your life, there's other factors in your life as well. Do you know what I mean? And those can affect how you feel about yourself, the role that cricket has. You know, if you're playing club cricket in your sixties, you're probably asking cricket to provide so you know, a social connection, a nice way to spend your day trying to get the younger players more experience. So, so the role it's playing in your life is different. Whereas maybe when you're in your early twenties or late teens, it's more about showing that you're good at something or proving that you're good at something or reaching some sort of ceiling or potential. So I think it's sort of, really does fluctuate.

Nathan Wood (09:16)

The one thing that I think I've noticed over the last few years is the obsession almost about technique with younger players. And I think that might be born from there's so much video analysis around now, isn't there? There's so much opportunity to watch, you know, professional players and analyze their techniques. And then you've got commentators talking about their techniques. And I'm not sure whether it's that healthy, you know, once you get that obsession,

Briony Brock (09:25)

Hmm.

I'd agree. And I think, I also think it's bit on the coaches, you know, it's, it's if I can convince this parent of this child that an hour one to one with me a week, that will make their technique good, that will make them more likely to make it and they can pay me X amount for it. It's sort of, it's also playing a little bit on that. I think there's all these academies and all of that stuff and, to kind of make their worth and prove their value. They tend to be technique focused. Whereas you take a different kind of culture, like a New Zealand, well, their systems are going actually maybe don't have a one to one every week through the winter, actually go and play another sport, please, like off you go. And so there's a sort of different way of approaching cricket and you're right, I don't necessarily think the technique focused environments produce better performances at the end of the day.

Nathan Wood (10:44)

Yeah. So come on, then. So you've got a young player. So at Cricket Mind I tend to do the consultations, don't I? And, and often when I'm doing a consultation, the notes that I give to you anyway, that there's a heavy emphasis on technique. How can you help a, you know, a young player in that situation when that emphasis is so much on refining and analysis and making sure that their elbows in the right place and the foot's pointing in the right position.

Briony Brock (11:13)

It's a huge challenge. think any kind of psychological work, counselling, mindset stuff, it's all difficult when you are trying to go against the environment that that person's in. It's the same if there's a parent that's extremely ⁓ pressurising. It's difficult to support ⁓ a young player. When they are in an environment that is heavily focused on outcomes on runs or technique. And you'll know that we've worked with county age group cricketers and some of them, their coaches will just be like obsessed with strike rate. So you're trying to help them as a batter go out there and stay calm and actually play a sort of sensible game, watching the ball, making good decisions while their coach is going, I just want a hundred strike rate. It's quite difficult to navigate that and to support the the cricketer to navigate the balance between what's being asked of them by somebody that's important and also their own taking ownership of their own cricket development.

Nathan Wood (12:16)

It's so tough because that point about coaches are so influential to young players aren't they? The young player — they want to do well, they want to create a good impression. If a coach says something, yeah, absolutely. They're often selecting the team, aren't they? it's very difficult to navigate your way as a player when you've got ⁓ a coach who's got a very strong way of kind of doing things and perhaps it doesn't actually fit in with.

Briony Brock (12:28)

They want to be selected. Well, yeah. And one thing that I see a lot is the conflicting advice that particularly children, I feel quite bad for them really, they'll have a school coach, a club coach, a county coach, a one to one batting coach, a one to one bowling coach, a parent that might have, might have undertaken some Level ones and twos, or may just be extremely passionate and have a lot of advice to give. And then there's these academies, you know, that come up all across the country that they might go and do.

Nathan Wood (12:46)

You know, your best way of doing things.

Briony Brock (13:15)

And it's so difficult for that child, particularly if they're pretty young, like nine or ten to know who to listen to.

Nathan Wood (13:24)

So, you know, we've been talking about young players there. If you go to the other end of the spectrum — what are we a couple of weeks on from the Ashes. Dare we talk about it, Briony? Mindset can affect any player at any level that we're talking about before. What were your thoughts on the Ashes from a mindset perspective? Anything stand out to you?

Briony Brock (13:31)

Yeah. Yes. Well, I think overall, it was just a perfect example of the impact of mindset. You look at a side like Australia, who I would argue and I think many would argue, played better than their some of the part, the sum of their parts. And you look at a side like England who played you could argue worse than the sum of their parts. And, and yes, you can talk about preparation a little bit and that kind of thing. But fundamentally, it's down to mindset. And that's mindset of the individual players, but it's also leadership team and the kind of the recognition of what's important and what's not and all sorts of things like that so I think it was a glowing example of just how important it is.

Nathan Wood (14:28)

Yeah. So what are my thoughts on the Ashes? I mean, disappointing for one. You went out there, didn't you? There was so many people who went out there and were expecting a much better, stronger performance from a group of, let's be honest, very talented players that, in terms of what England have. But for me, I mean, there's a few areas, I guess, the preparation, stood out for me, not just

Briony Brock (14:36)

I did, yes.

Yes.

Nathan Wood (14:58)

On the tour, but a bit before, ⁓ New Zealand trip, interesting,

Briony Brock (15:01)

Yes. I think, I think it's what's interesting with that is a lot of people have said over the kind of last week or two, the preparation wasn't good enough. But still, you know, people were saying immediately before the Ashes, England have got a great chance. They still they it's sort of like retrospectively looking to find where things went wrong. And I'm not saying that preparation was right. absolutely wasn't. But there are a lot of pundits, a lot of commentators who were pretty confident.

Nathan Wood (15:17)

Mm.

Briony Brock (15:33)

right up until the first test. I mean, even into day one.

Nathan Wood (15:37)

Yeah, 100%. Look, my take on that is ⁓ I'm not sure the evidence bears that out. I think if you look at this four year cycle, the first year, it was an incredible start, wasn't it, under Brendan and Ben, from where we were. But if you look at the period as a whole,

Briony Brock (15:45)

No.

Nathan Wood (16:04)

Well, the stats would say we've not won a major series in that time. And particularly over the last couple of years, maybe the team was on a downward trajectory. So, I think maybe we did get carried away. We've got some very exciting players, but in terms of team performance — debatable, I would say.

Briony Brock (16:27)

So you said preparation there, what else did you kind of recognise?

Nathan Wood (16:30)

Yeah, so I think the prep could have been better. A lack of adaptability How fragile they looked at key moments. I think that when it comes to batting, it seems to me that the art of batting has been replaced by the intent for hitting. You know, the bowling plan, it just seemed to consist of

Briony Brock (16:43)

Mm.

Hmm.

Nathan Wood (17:00)

bowling short and if that didn't work, there wasn't really a plan B. So lack of adaptability, how fragile they were, the dangers of having a defined or a really definitive playing philosophy. I think it can box you in that. You know, if you become so synonymous with a style of play like England have become.

Briony Brock (17:16)

Hmm.

Yeah.

Yes.

Nathan Wood (17:26)

It kind of backs you into a corner, doesn't it? You know it's the only way that you can play. and it's a lot easier for opposition to plan against, isn't it? This is hindsight Briony, which is wonderful, isn't it? You know, the benefit of, but that's how you learn, isn't it? I think, and I think the key is to kind of take the lessons and adapt your style from that, but disappointing. You went over there, you know, you were in the, in the midst of it.

Briony Brock (17:29)

It does.

Nathan Wood (17:56)

Come on, what were your kind of reflections? What were people talking about?

Briony Brock (18:00)

Well, I mean, I have to be honest, I loved it. I was at the Adelaide test with some friends and the sun was shining and it's a beautiful ground. And yeah, England didn't do particularly well, but Australia did some great things. There was good cricket to watch. I just had a great time, I'll be honest. And at that point I was becoming a bit of an Australia fan because of the sort of quiet confidence and their approach really.

But yes, I think people, some people like to blame individual performances. ⁓ But I'm not sure if you can do that at this kind of Level. Doesn't feel fair. Whereas I guess others were were blaming, selection and kind of the wider hierarchy and structures in place and how it had all come about. So I think that was kind of mixed.

But I mean, ultimately people, cricket fans are gonna say, they didn't bowl the right lengths or they didn't bat particularly well. You know, they're going to be quite cricket focused. ⁓ But I think, yes, I think there was a lot more beyond the actual cricket on display that kind of determined the outcome.

Nathan Wood (19:11)

Yeah. There's so much that goes into this, isn't there? I mean, individual performances. The context there is, think that's where the prep kind of comes in a lot and the messaging from the management. I thought it was fascinating that we have had this style of play for a number of years now. And then we lose the first two test matches and the style changes, doesn't it? And I just kind of, you know, I mean, obviously I

Briony Brock (19:22)

Hmm.

A little bit, yeah.

Nathan Wood (19:42)

never kind of was anywhere near that kind of level as a player, but I did kind of put myself in the players position at that point. And I genuinely didn't know what I would do in terms of prep because, as a batter, let's say, you've got into the team because that's the style of play that the selectors are looking for. And that's what's brought the team a bit of success. But then suddenly you're in a situation where you're two nil down, things are looking tough and there's a bit of a situation where, who knows what's going to be said in the changing room, but it seemed like there was a little bit of a change in philosophy. So as a player, do you go out there, when you're netting and, look to change your game completely based on the fact that for last few years you've been playing in a certain way and they've picked you for that style, very difficult.

Briony Brock (20:40)

Yeah.

Yeah. And I think you've got kind of adaptability on two levels there. You kind of fundamentally need to be able to adapt when plan A isn't working. And it feels like that preparation hadn't been done. They hadn't necessarily accounted for the fact this is our plan B when plan A doesn't work. And you've got that on a kind of micro scale in terms of like how we what lengths we bowling, you know, who's opening with the new ball, etc.

But then you've also got it on a sort of broader perspective, which is like our philosophy, who we say that we are, who, you know, the way that we associate, I mean, we've got a brand, I mean, I know they don't like the name, but they do kind of lean into it, I feel at times. What if that doesn't work? Because I feel giving that up mid series in a way that clearly was not planned didn't necessarily help. It was only when they then had lost that I feel the pressure situation changed because the pressure suddenly off you've lost, you know, this whole thing that you wanted to achieve is done. You can actually think now you can actually adapt. You can actually do all those things that you were struggling to do before. But I think yeah, it was quite interesting to observe them change their whole approach that they backed and backed and backed for the past four years.

Nathan Wood (21:58)

Like I was saying, I think that's the danger of having a very kind of definitive philosophy. You you can't beat an approach where adaptability is built into that philosophy. And I think a big part of that is on picking players who, can do different things at different times in different situations and two, helping those players adapt and develop their game, depending on the context of the situation that that they face. I think that's something that all players can kind of take a lesson from, isn't it? When they're practicing, when they're, trying to hone their game, actually, it's not just the one style that they want to become known for or have a big red flag kind of saying this is me as a player, actually the best players have always adapted to the situation and

Briony Brock (22:31)

Mm.

Nathan Wood (22:54)

in their way, but they've always been able to get the best out of themselves for the benefit of the team, as opposed to kind of just, hurtling towards a very definitive kind of one way style.

Briony Brock (23:06)

what's interesting is that cricket as a sport, the training that you do is generally quite different to a game, particularly at younger levels, you might do a lot of nets, you might do, you know, things like that. It's very different to actually playing a game. And in other sports, you would expect adaptability, it would be a key skill to play, you know, a football match if you're

Nathan Wood (23:13)

Mm.

Briony Brock (23:29)

Three nil up, how you would play would be different if you were three nil down. You know, there's clear adaptability built into the strategy, but it feels like cricket because some of the skills are closed skills, you know, the bowling. Actually, maybe people are being coached to, you know, bowl this, bowl like this, bowl like that, whatever, without that natural adaptability that you would have through much more game play. And that's probably where the preparation's a factor because you know, I, I was thinking about this in the context of the wicketkeepers. So you've got Alex Carey praised for coming up to this, you know, standing up to the stumps, etc. We sort of assume that that's because he's a good keeper. And it might be, but it might also be because he's got a good relationship with a wicketkeeping coach, or an analyst or somebody like that who said, why don't we try it out? When when a batters like being aggressive, why don't we try it out if you can manage to stand up?

And that will keep him back in his crease. You know, it feels like it's very easy to say, well, Alex Carey is just a great keeper, but it takes a bit of teamwork and it takes a bit of thinking and reflection and actually planning for these situations. And similarly with Jamie Smith, you think, has anyone like said to him, could he just stand like a foot forward and see how that goes, you know? And it feels like where Australia had probably practiced hundreds of scenarios.

Nathan Wood (24:39)

Mm. Mm.

Briony Brock (24:56)

and they maybe had people in place almost, I mean, it sounds silly, but almost playing like Harry Brook or, okay, we know how he bats, let's see what we can do. How can we like make a trap for him? It feels like Australia planned for those scenarios. And so then when those showed up, they could adapt and it looked like the most natural thing in the world. But it feels like England didn't. And yes, the individual players, it's on them a little bit, but it's also on the team to, mean, you've...

Nathan Wood (25:16)

Mm.

Briony Brock (25:25)

you know, from I'm pretty sure it was even in Level Three, you do pressure training, you know, you try and replicate those experiences. And, and I think also, it's part of this culture of stripping back the noise from the from the support team and cutting that right back, because that can feel like leadership. But leadership isn't doing everything yourself. Leadership is having people in place who you trust, and you can delegate important tasks to. You know, a nutritionist who is there whose job it is, is to solely look at the nutrition of the players and recognise, they're looking quite tired. Tomorrow we need to make sure that their carbohydrate intake is higher or whatever. But if you take all those people out, that's either all on you as the coach or it's on the players themselves. And that's just that's noise on them. By taking the external noise away, then you're actually increasing their internal noise and making it harder for them to focus on what they actually need to focus on.

Nathan Wood (26:15)

Mm.

Yeah, that's fascinating. So when you were talking there, one thing that's sprung to my mind actually was there was, used to be a psychologist, well, I'm sure he's still around, called Steve Bull. He was involved with England for years and years and years. And then he kind of did a bit of work on in the coach development space for the ECB. And when I was going through my Level Three and Level Four, he was doing that. And he used to talk about — as coaches — you need to develop independent, he called them ITCs, independent thinking cricketers. And I think the point that you're talking about with Carey there and that situation coming up to the stumps, I just think Australia, they seem to be, one, battle hardened, more battle hardened than us, but two, full of ITCs, independent thinking cricketers who could assess the situation in the moment and adapt the plan accordingly. And I guess from a

Briony Brock (27:07)

Hmm.

Yeah.

Nathan Wood (27:20)

psychological perspective, my question to you would be how do you, develop that in young players? How can you encourage them to become independent thinking cricketers?

Briony Brock (27:32)

Well, I think from a psychological perspective, there's so many different ways that you can work with cricketers. You can work with them on an individual Level, looking at the pressure that they may perceive, the way that how to deal with their internal nerves when they go up to back, kind of how they measure their success, things like that, very internal things. Then you've got on the other side, you've got the team side of things, the kind of cohesiveness, the role, clarity, all of that kind of stuff. But then as you say, you've got that more kind of overlaps with the tactical side, I suppose. And it's that general approach of building confidence as well to make these decisions. And a big part of that in young cricketers in particular is like reflecting. It's reflecting on what you do well and what maybe you don't do well and then engaging with appropriate support or space to develop those things. So again, you want to be in an environment where you feel like it's okay to make mistakes because you and I have talked about this countless times. Training is where you want the mistakes to happen so that actually when you go and play the Ashes, you can keep the line that you're trying to bowl. Yeah, like it's okay if in the nets that you're not getting it right, but ideally we're not getting it right now so we get it right later. And so I think in all of your training, you want to feel you can make mistakes, you can adapt, you can listen to feedback.

You can listen to noise and you can choose which aspects of that noise you take forward and choose which bits you go, actually, no, I'm all right, thank you. But that's that independence. It's not shutting it all out and it's not listening to every word. It's being selective, being critical, being reflective on your own process. It's gotta stay fun as well.

Nathan Wood (29:19)

It's very difficult, isn't it, to replicate those pressures that people can feel in a game situation.

I think there are some practices actually, you can set up practices in your training that can go some way towards that. And I've always been a big believer in actually having messy practices I call them messy practices. So we were talking about an obsession on technique earlier and getting everything right. I think that that is kind of spread into this feeling that people have to look good in practice. And I actually think that if you go to the opposite end of the spectrum and you create messy practice where the challenge is high, you start failing a lot, you start having to come up with solutions to the big challenges that can go some way to kind of helping you become those ITCs, working things out in the moment to be a little bit better prepared for when you get into match situations. My question to you would be, is there a danger of making them — those messy sessions — too messy and creating a lack of confidence

Briony Brock (30:33)

I think it's interesting, it's an interesting idea. And I think, I think it kind of depends. You've got to probably have a good balance of that more messy approach and then the one where you are aiming for sort of more perfection. And I actually think it whenever I watch like, you know, when they do the catching as a warmup, I kind of feel like as a fielding coach.

To be challenging your players, they shouldn't be catching them all. If they are catching every single ball that you're hitting to them, You're not making it challenging enough. They need to be able to, you kind of don't know where the edge of the cliff is until you've fallen off. So you need to hit some that they actually just physically can't get. It hits the tip of the finger, they're annoyed, they're disappointed and they move on and they try and go. All in for the next one. And it feels like sometimes when you watch these practices, I mean, obviously, I don't see everything. They want them to feel success and achieve success. So they get that confidence. But like you're saying, actually, to experience and sit with that messiness with that failure is such an important part of holding yourself together and learning how to hold yourself together when you when things go wrong, because we saw more than ever. I mean, catching is a really easy example but you know we saw in these Ashes they dropped so many catches and you and you just think is that because you've always been it's all been a bit too easy and like you say you want high challenge and high support as well alongside that high challenge ⁓ but you're not going to grow and you're not going to get better if you don't fail

Nathan Wood (32:11)

David Young, that psychologist that we mentioned earlier, would talk about resilient confidence. And I think that's what you're talking about there, isn't it? We talk about confidence, don't we? But it's not pumping up people's tires, is it? That doesn't give you confidence when you need it, which is in the heat of battle. What would be your definition of true confidence?

Briony Brock (32:15)

Yeah. Yeah.

Well, I think there's a difference between confidence and self-efficacy. So confidence is your general perception of your abilities and efficacy is on a sort of more task specific basis. So for example, I might generally be quite confident person, but do I think I can land this aeroplane that's crash, that's going to crash? Probably not. So it's kind of both are important. ⁓ It's yeah. So in cricket, for example, yeah, you might have a confident cricketer, but do they think they can face these last two bulls before tea? You know, it's kind of situation specific. You asked me my definition of confidence. I think it's a quiet kind of, quiet belief that you can do it, really. I mean, at its very simplest. And I think what's interesting is the idea of the guy they used — the All Blacks. I'm not sure how he brands himself. Is he a mental skills coach or mindset coach or something?

Nathan Wood (33:38)

not sure what he calls himself.

Briony Brock (33:40)

and you can see for a sport like rugby, pumping up the tires, getting everyone hyped is exactly what you want. But actually in cricket, how much is that what you want?

Nathan Wood (33:48)

Yeah.

Well, it's a shorter game, isn't it? I mean, rugby, it's all adrenaline based. You don't have the moments in between to kind of reflect and, have a bit of silence and quietness. Cricket is different in that regard, isn't it? I guess probably a bit closer to golf there. So you were talking about basically to be truly confident and resilient, to have resilient confidence. You need to know that your skills can match the demand that's going to be placed upon you.

Briony Brock (33:58)

Yeah, power.

Yeah.

Yes.

Yes,

yes.

Nathan Wood (34:24)

There will be times though, won't there, where, there'll be players who have the skill to reach the demand. So let's say, don't know, in training, they can face the fastest bowlers on the trickiest wickets and they, they bat beautifully. But then they go in a game situation against lesser opponents, against lesser bowlers. It's a beautiful wicket but for some reason they just cannot transfer that ability, the skill that they've got to match situations.

Briony Brock (34:59)

they cannot transfer or they don't think they can transfer?

Nathan Wood (35:02)

well that's a good one, well talk to me about that.

Briony Brock (35:05)

Well, I think sometimes we can become and when we when I work with people who say things like, I just can't do it, I can do it in nets, but I just can't do it in a game. That's quite telling of where they're at in terms of their belief in themselves. It's suggesting actually a quite fixed mindset that's quite unhelpful to what they're trying to achieve. And I think that's one of the things with that sort of resilient confidence and resilience is something we can talk about more because bit of an obsession of mine at the moment, is it's even when things aren't going your way, maybe the last Three games, you haven't been able to translate onto the field. But it's still that belief that you can do it, like you are capable of doing it. And I think, yeah, it's easy for people to speak in extremes, I just can't or, you know, and that suggests that, yeah, that there isn't that confidence there.

Nathan Wood (35:59)

So when you're talking about people, talking in extremes, I presume that will also manifest itself in some self-talk as well and harmful self-talk.

Briony Brock (36:06)

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. If they're telling you, I just can't do it, what are they telling themselves? It's not likely to be nicer than that.

Nathan Wood (36:15)

So have you got any kind of basic rules in terms of self-talk and, there'll be plenty of, well, don't know if there'll be plenty of listeners because it's our first episode, but, maybe there'll be a few listeners. If there's some players out there, have you got any kind of tips in terms of self-talk that they can practically use?

Briony Brock (36:35)

So I think step one is recognize where it happens because I think a lot of us don't. We just think it's a thought. We don't recognize it as self-talk.

And when you're under pressure, your brain has less space in it. It has less room to think clearly and separate itself from thoughts and regulate and do all those things.

And as soon as you're sort of switched onto it, can be quite easy to recognise it cropping up here, there and everywhere. Even not on the cricket pitch, you might notice it when you make mistakes in other areas, how you speak to yourself, maybe keep a log if that's something you want to do or just notice it. And then I think when you're outside of that pressured situation, when you're a bit more calm and you've got some time to reflect, you think, is that helpful to me, is that building my confidence? Is it making me feel good? Is it affecting my enjoyment of the game? If the answer to that is no, it's not making me feel good. No, it's not helping me. Then you can start to think actually, okay, what is something that I can do or say instead? And often a good place to start is a sort of bit of a mantra, know, a sort of universal statement that you can use in any of those moments where you identify that self-talk coming up.

Nathan Wood (37:48)

So with that mantra, ⁓ I think it was Glenn McGrath, when he used to come into bowl, he either used to sing a song in his head or he used to whistle. I can't remember which one it was, but is that the same thing? A bit of a mantra kind of making sure that nothing negative is getting in his mind?

Briony Brock (38:10)

So there's two steps to it really, aren't there? There's stopping the negative impact of what might have been there otherwise. So if you don't sing that song, might he be going very negative and that would be harmful, in which case the song is better. But for some of us, it might be more helpful to have something like something more instructional or something more positive. If you're somebody that needs a bit of like, like pumping up, then a more relevant, I suppose mantra might be might be helpful there.

Nathan Wood (38:42)

And with the mantra, is it something that you evolve over time, that you have different mantras for different situations? What's going through my mind is I had one phrase, Briony, that went through my mind for every single bull that I ever faced, I think, probably from the age of 14, 15, and it was: "Come on, wood, watch the ball".

Briony Brock (38:58)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Nathan Wood (39:05)

And that was it, right? That was it. Now I'm not saying it worked. Clearly it didn't work that well because I would have scored more runs, but, I think focus was perhaps something I did do quite well, but at times it became a bit of a habit that, actually looking back, I question whether it would have benefited me if I'd kind of freshen that up a little bit.

Briony Brock (39:05)

Okay, yeah. I think first kind of first wave would definitely be something universal like that. But you're right, they can get a bit stale and they can become so automatic that your brain then has room to go back to the negativity or back to the unhelpful things. And that would be time to do a little reflect. It's just the same with your playing and your physical or your technical skills. You know, might have worked really hard on your fitness, but then, actually, it's not quite where it was. I could work on it again. That would be that situation you'd go actually is this helping me or are there moments in the game where something else would be helpful or switching it up all together and yeah it's not something that's kind of one and done it requires ongoing work just like the physical the technical the tactical aspects of cricket as well

Nathan Wood (40:21)

Well, it's a brilliant answer that I completely agree with you there. Actually, you've articulated that beautifully. Visualization, that's always kind of something that people, it comes into their mind, visualization, when they talk about mindset and psychology and, you know, someone like Steve Smith, a big proponent of it.

Briony Brock (40:25)

Hmm.

Yeah.

Nathan Wood (40:45)

I first worked with a sports psychologist, I think in about 1994, 1995, so a long time ago. I was playing at Lancs at the time. So I was a young man and I was in the second team and I did a bit of work with him and he got me onto visualization and I did it religiously actually. And before the start of the season, I'd set myself a target of a thousand runs

Briony Brock (40:50)

Yes.

Nathan Wood (41:12)

in the team, in the championship. And I got there and I got there quite quickly. I got there, you know, mid June, July, quite quickly. Fantastic start to the season. But I was absolutely exhausted at the end of it. And I think, I mean, I don't know. think I, looking back, I'm thinking, did I visualise too much here? And the result, Briony, it was...

Briony Brock (41:27)

Hmm.

Nathan Wood (41:40)

once I got to that thousand mark and I'd achieved my goal and I was feeling exhausted. I literally didn't score a run for the rest of the season. So, talk to me a bit about, high level visualization. Are there any pitfalls? Is it for everybody? What are your views on that?

Briony Brock (41:48)

No.

Well, how much were you actually doing?

Nathan Wood (42:00)

Well, yeah, a lot. Quite a lot. Yeah. I mean, I would be doing it before the game, the evening before a game. I'd be doing it on the way there. I'd be doing it before innings. I'd take myself onto the pitch visualizing. I'd be doing it pretty much all the time, actually.

Briony Brock (42:25)

Okay, so to answer your first question, is it for everyone? I think it's for everyone to try. Some people are not especially visual, they don't find it helpful, absolutely fine. But I think it's worth giving it a go and using it for some different scenarios for batting, bowling, fielding, whatever, know, try it out. Yes, you can probably do it too much because while it's a sort of free or perceived to be a free way of doing extra training without like putting reps through your body. It is quite taxing on the brain, know, especially if you're doing it, if you're really engaged in it and you're imagining yourself playing the ball and focusing, you're still using all of the mental energy that you'd be using to play a game, but you're not playing the game. And you're not, if you played as much as you'd visualized, your body would have been exhausted. And so you probably got yourself in a bit of a state there where your body was all right, but your brain was wrecked because your brain had been playing twice as much cricket as your body had. I would also say on the goal of a thousand runs, that's again where we can use skills, mental skills like visualization and self-talk and stuff to help us. But having goals like that is sort of a slightly different mindset piece of work which looks about how we approach our game and how we set intentions and how we measure our success and what we look to achieve through playing. And that in itself is a goal. When we have goals like that, if we don't meet them, we can feel like a real failure. And if we do meet them, sometimes it's not quite as satisfying as we'd anticipated.

Nathan Wood (43:56)

Mm.

Yeah, a hundred percent. It changed my relationship with goal setting, actually, that instance, because you're right, you set yourself a goal. there were plenty of times where I'd set myself a goal. I was nowhere near it. And that was a demotivating factor, but conversely on this occasion, I did reach it. But then...

Briony Brock (44:16)

Mm.

Nathan Wood (44:35)

Well, I've reached it now and I'm tired as a result. yeah, I think you've got to be careful with that goal setting actually, particularly in terms of stats, because it can take you down a road where it becomes very individualized. The focus becomes on you. And actually we've got to remember that this is a team sport and that we play, don't we, to help the team win. So yeah, interesting thought.

Briony Brock (44:46)

Yeah, a thousand runs, great achievement, but then if you don't score for the remainder of the season, is that good worth that feeling? You know it's difficult. And I think we've talked before about the impact of play cricket, particularly on young cricketers, because they can see, you know, in other sports, really, are people, do people know how many goals they've scored across the season? Like, do they really know in junior football and like under sevens? But in cricket, they do.

Nathan Wood (45:30)

Mm.

Briony Brock (45:31)

We know who's got

Nathan Wood (45:32)

Mm.

Briony Brock (45:32)

The runs, we know who's got the wickets. From the youngest possible age, that's all public information. It's a way of monitoring that can override our sense of progress or sense of achievement.

Nathan Wood (45:44)

Okay, so we have covered quite a broad area there, haven't we? You know, in this first episode. Maybe next time we have a framework, Briony, and that's the learning here. One thing that I noticed, though, when you were talking before, the area that you seemed to kind of light up with was resilience. So perhaps we can have a deeper dive, into that area in the next episode.

Briony Brock (45:48)

We have.

Yeah.

Hmm.

I think that's a great idea. I think it's an undervalued and misunderstood topic and would be perfect theme for our next episode.

Nathan Wood (46:22)

Well, thanks everybody for listening. I think we'll call it stumps there. So we'll see you next time.

Briony Brock (46:28)

See you next time.