Copy of Tracey Gee

[00:00:00] The Missional Life Podcast, inspiring Kingdom-minded believers around the world to live the mission of God in their lives.

Dan: All right. Welcome back to Mission, my podcast. Today we have Tracy Gee on the show, Tracy's a certified leadership coach and facilitator who has spent over 20 years serving with inner Varsity Christian Fellowship, which she helped leaders deepen their walk with Christ and live their callings with clarity.

She's also coached leaders with organizations like UC, Berkeley, Amazon, Coca-Cola, and even the Miami Heat bring her faith informed perspective into diverse spaces. Her new book, the Magic of Knowing What You Want is about uncovering God's shaped desires and aligning our lives with his purposes. Tracy's heart is to help believers listen for God's voice, discern what truly matters, and courageously step into God's mission in the world.

Tracy Gee, welcome to the show.

Tracey: Thank you so much for having me.

Dan: Yeah, absolutely. Glad to have you. Hey, your new [00:01:00] book, the Magic of Knowing What You Want tell us. As Christians, we wrestle with aligning. What we want and what God wants. How do you see the connection between our deepest desires and God's unique calling on our lives?

Tracey: I think our desires are often a great door into what God has for us, but I find that a lot of believers, they separate those things. They think those are at war with each other. Like, I can't listen to what I want 'cause I'm trying to listen to God's will and I find that there's just so much more.

Freedom and creativity and space. When we can entertain the idea that maybe that's how God is speaking to us is through our desires, is through those unique ways that we've been made, and by listening and paying attention to those things, I think we uncover so much more of how God has already shown up in who we are and how we've been made.

Dan: Yeah you know, the Bible verse says Psalm 37, 4, it says, take the delight in the Lord and he will give you the desires of your [00:02:00] heart, and many of us wanna follow God's call, but it's just kind of hard to discern that at times too, right?

Tracey: For sure. Yeah.

Or the verse that I often think about is when Jesus first appears in the Book of John, there's a lot of background. There's the prologue that's very cosmic. It's talking about the word being made, flesh and dwelling among us, and then you get people talking about. John the Baptist, and then you get people talking about Jesus.

But when Jesus first speaks in that book, he asks the disciples, what do you want? So he goes to this question of desire and that's how he engages them. That's what he wants to talk about with them. But again, I find that sometimes we miss that or we think, oh, I'm trying to live a life of obedience, so I can't ever listen to those things or I can't ever even engage with that question when actually, that's a question I think Jesus asks us.

Dan: Wow. I love that. You know, so many times it's often hard to tell like, what is it that we want? And because there's sometimes it's a personal ambition. And then there's like that [00:03:00] holy desire, right? And so I was just wondering like. How do we sometimes discern between like, Hey, this is me personally and what I want person, or, or versus like a holy desire.

Like, man, I feel like this is something that God's put in me, that I should want. There are different things that man, I may want in my life, but those aren't necessarily the good things that God wants to give me in my life too. So I just was wondering how do you discern those things in your own life?

Tracey: That's a good question. And I think it's something that comes up for a lot of people. And I think one is by having some curiosity towards those wants. So I think what happens a lot of times is people feel that tension and so they get any hint of a desire in their life and they're like, okay, well I need to shut this down 'cause it probably isn't good or probably is bad.

And I think if we can hold it with a little, like less of quick judgment and just a little bit more curiosity to say, okay. Even if this desire is not a good desire, where does that come from? What is underneath [00:04:00] that? Why might this be showing up in my life? And, and I think it also goes to even just how do we see God?

Do we see God as big enough and close enough to be able to redirect us if a desire maybe isn't off or it's not the best thing for us? Like do we think that? God's gonna ditch us, or you know, like rain down judgment on us. If we somehow are acting in a desire that isn't totally right, do we trust that God could redirect us and speak to us and reveal that over time?

So I think a lot of times I think the way that we can, we deal with that tension, like I said, is just try to shut it down as quickly as possible so we don't engage with it. But I'm trying to. Tell people, well, if you give a little bit more space to actually just be in that tension, I think you'll find that God will speak to you in it.

And I think you'll also find that. Sometimes even if a desire on the surface you're not sure of, if you look a a few layers underneath it, I think you [00:05:00] can try to find what might be at the heart of it. So, for example, I talked to someone once who was really wrestling with this, I talk about this a little bit in the book, but she was wrestling with this whole issue of her living room cartons were really, really old and.

Full of holes and did not look good. She found herself wanting to replace them, but she had this other voice like, oh, is that okay? Or maybe I should not spend money on something like that. Is that just frivolous? But the more that she gave a little bit more space to ask like, what's underneath that?

It was really a desire for beauty in her space or hospitality and I think to even reframe some of those things as what those true desires are and to give ourselves that a bit of graciousness with that. 'cause I think the real harsh way to see that is like, oh, you're just, you know, wanting to waste money or you just care about superficial things or that's frivolous or that doesn't matter.

But there was a deeper longing that I think reflects something of who [00:06:00] God is, which is, I think God is a God of beauty and hospitality and all those things. And so I think sometimes. We're quick to shut things down when actually a little bit more conversation, a little bit more curiosity, I think is much more helpful.

Amanda: You know, what would you say are the top, maybe two or three things that cause people to shut those things down, like that you've seen in common threads through many people that you've worked with, and how do they overcome those barriers?

Tracey: Well, there's several main ones that I tend to see.

One is. Permission. So a lot of times people don't feel like, do I have permission to even want this? Is this okay? Is this not okay? Who's gonna be mad? You know, if I say that I want this thing that was sort of the case, like with the person I was talking about with the curtains. Sometimes it's issues of.

Practicals or pragmatism or competency, like, I don't know, should I even want this? 'cause I don't know if this is realistic. This will probably never happen in a million [00:07:00] years, or I don't think I'm competent enough to get this. Like, I might want to do this, but I don't. Think that I have the abilities or sort of like distrust yourself.

I think a lot of these things tend to pop up . You know, when people notice something that they want, they'll quickly have like a secondary voice that's really quick to be like, Hmm, but are you really allowed to want that? Or could that really happen? I don't think so. You know that doesn't seem very realistic, or you probably can't afford that, so you shouldn't even.

Spend any time thinking about it, just like dismiss it. So I think a lot of us have very quick knee jerk reactions to some of these natural desires in our life. And again, what I'm trying to do is help people A, be aware that that's happening so that they can choose with more intentionality. Like, okay, how do you wanna interact with this?

Like, do you wanna just shut it down? Or might God have something to say if you're willing to ask yourself, [00:08:00] okay, well. I really don't know if I have what it takes to pursue this kind of mission or this kind of purpose in my life. But if I did and I looked at the joy that I have when I talk about this or when I think about this, maybe there's more possibilities here than I think.

So I think it takes some practice to learn how to not jump to those kind of quick reactions and instead to give ourself room for. Imagination, creativity and a sense of agency in the things that, God has called us to. Because, to what y'all talk about on the podcast, there's so many different ways to image God.

There's so many different ways to live out mission. And I think that if we give ourselves that permission and creativity, we'll find the unique way that that's meant to be in our life. But again, sometimes. We can't help but sort of jump to that really quick knee jerk reaction.

Amanda: Yeah. So good.

Dan: You said something earlier I wanna come back [00:09:00] to is that just knowing God and also just the question, what do you want?

Like, he started with questions and I think the more you spend in the Bible, the more you spend time with God, you realize god asks a lot of questions. I mean, most of what Jesus is saying, maybe not most, but there's a large portion that he's asking questions of people.

And so questions do help us get to the root of different things. I know you write about some different questions. You write about four types of questions that get in the way. And I just was wondering if you could share some of those. What are some of those and how can reframing them draw us closer to God's calling?

Tracey: Yeah, I talk about that early on. 'cause again, I think what I've noticed for a lot of people is when we start to ask ourselves, well, what do I want? How would I answer that question? Like, if Jesus showed up on your doorstep and said, what do you want? Would you know how to answer? A lot of times we don't, because we quickly jumped to these other kinds of questions.

One is permission questions like. I don't know, am I allowed to want this? Am I allowed to, to [00:10:00] say that this is, you know, is someone gonna be upset? And instead of that, I invite people to think about entertaining questions of agency. Like, okay, what has God given you to do that might be different than what that looks like for somebody else that might be not the same?

And that's okay or pragmatic questions instead of getting in the nitty gritty of like, oh, let's like. You know, poke holes in all the ways. Like this is like never gonna happen. Let's, let's ask different kinds of questions. Like where does your imagination take you? What grabs your imagination?

Why is that the case? That's not true for everyone. So that's one thing that I've learned by talking to so many people about their journeys is those desires, they don't come out of nowhere. And a lot of times I think people dismiss 'em 'cause they just think like, oh, this is. I don't know.

They take it for granted, but what I get to see is like, no, I've never heard anybody say that they want to learn more about this or do this kind of work or pursue their calling in this way that's unique to you. And so I think if we can have [00:11:00] a little bit more just space for imagination and creativity and playfulness around some of these things, I think that's often.

It leads to more opportunities than just having that sort of harsh voice of like, this will never happen, so just don't even think about it. Another stream of questions can be capitalistic. Like, can I afford this? Is this reasonable? And I get it, like, finances are important, but I often try to help people understand that that doesn't have to be the whole story.

If you can give a little bit of more space for. What could be sometimes there's more possibility than you think. You know, God is a God of abundance. And I think, we can sometimes be quick to sort of dismiss possibilities before we've even given a chance to see like maybe God does have something for us here.

So those are the types of questions that I think tend to come up. And for each one there's a different mode of, let's pay attention to again, rather than. Getting caught up in where you [00:12:00] feel like you fall short or the ways that you don't have what it takes. Really focus on what makes you come alive, what brings you joy, what lights you up.

That is also another thing that's really unique to each person, and this is another area that I think folks take for granted all the time, and they're like, oh, anyone could have done that. Anyone could have made that happen when, that's the furthest thing from the truth. A lot of times these areas of deep joy and aliveness, they're very sacred to me.

They're very important. And I often find that people undervalue them in their own life. 'cause they just think, well, yeah, anyone could do this. This is not a big deal, but it's pretty rare. I think when those things come up and. Often very unique to people's stories. So it's again, why I love that you're highlighting different types of stories because I think it, it does show that we all aren't the same and there's something really beautiful about that variety.

God's so [00:13:00] creative, like you just look at plants for example. God didn't just make like one kind of plant. There's a hundred thousand millions, different kinds of plants. And I think that God. Is reflected in the variety of gifts and passions and interests and joys that, we've each been given as well.

Amanda: Such a great answer. I kind of was laughing on the inside when you mentioned the plants. 'cause, living in Belize, my husband has picked up a hobby of. Gathering as many plants as he possibly can on our back. Is that right? Patio. I love it. All these different ones that we couldn't get in the us and that has become a really fun hobby of finding all the unique varieties.

I just love that you use that analogy for answer. That's beautiful answer. Yeah

Dan: that's one of the characteristics of God I love is his creativity and I find that expressing right now in plants and just all the different tropical plants that wouldn't grow in northwest Ohio that grow on my back patio now and it's just so beauty.

You see beauty and get the brilliance and the creativity of the father. [00:14:00] And that, you bring up such a good point about the questions that we ask ourselves, because so many times we're asking ourselves like fear-based questions. And I think.

When we ask ourselves a question or when we ask a question, the kind of question that we ask actually determines the type of answer that we get. And here's an example. You know, when all the disciples are out there on the boat and it's raining, and they think they're gonna go down, and here comes Jesus walking on the water and

peter's like, Hey, is it you, Lord? If it is you, then call me out here and walk on the water. Like what is Jesus supposed to say to that question? If it is you, it sure was him. And so that question evoked a responsive, I guess. Yeah. Just, just come out here. And so I think , I use that as a joke, but at the same time, I think

the truth of that is when we ask a question that like, is inevitably gonna be bring about a negative result? Am I enough? Ultimately, like for all of us, none of us are enough for what God's called us [00:15:00] into, but his power in us makes us enough. But if we just simply say, am I enough?

That question is going to lead us to the result of, no, I am not. And so it's so important the questions that we do ask when we're going into introspection, because. Ultimately that can move us into life and move us into abundance and move us into the things that God's called us, or it can cause us to shrink back and hide what we do have because we know that we're not enough individually and we don't wanna bring out anything for fear of being exposed, of not being enough.

And so anyways, I just wanted. Pivot over towards, you introduce this authentic alignment pathway. And I'm just wondering, can you explain exactly what that is and how does alignment with our God-given desires reflect walking in step with the spirit?

Tracey: The pathway is something that I uncovered as I talked to more and more folks about their journeys and they were asking similar questions a lot of times, feeling.

You know, confused, stuck, not sure, like, how [00:16:00] do I move forward? Sometimes people were in transitions and I noticed that it was just a way to take all those questions and not get caught up in the fear, the anxiety of them, and instead to ask a better set of questions, which are, who are you, who have you uniquely been able made, and what have you been made to do?

What is really on your heart? What do you feel pulled to when you think about what you really want? If you were to be honest about that. And then how do you find your way forward to begin to make that happen through action, through experimentation, rather than getting stuck in like, I gotta have the perfect answers before I do anything.

Your point about, peter walking on water, like if he had sat there and be like, well, I need the perfect plan. Like, he would've never taken that step. So that's something I think that can be really helpful in a journey like this is to understand that yeah, not all your questions can be answered by just, you know, forming a perfect plan or thinking and thinking, thinking.

[00:17:00] Sometimes you just gotta take a step. It's a way to simplify and focus on some questions that I find tend to lead to better clarity rather than. Feeling stuck and overwhelmed by these hundreds of fear-based questions. Like, am I enough and this probably won't work? And instead to ask different questions like, okay, how would I experiment my way forward?

What have I learned about who I am and how do I uniquely image God? And how do I celebrate that and lean into that? How do I be honest about some of the desires and create that I have and create space to really listen to them rather than always shutting them down. And so it's. It was a way to simplify that process.

As I worked with folks, I realized, oh my goodness, this actually does help people come to more clarity in their lives. It helps them be, not like it isn't a magic formula, but I think I found that people came out of that with a feeling of being more grounded in, some of these fundamental things of who am I?

How do I uniquely feel [00:18:00] called to live out some of these questions of purpose and what God, where God has me to make an impact. Yeah. So that's how that pathway was formed. Hundreds and hundreds of conversations and watching people wrestle with these types of things and then having those moments where they come back to me and say, oh my gosh, I found it this thing that we dreamed about and talked about, or that I was just beginning to wonder if it was an inkling of something that was even possible.

It's happening. So for example, it's not to overdo the plant thing, but I remember talking to someone who was coming out of a transition. She was shutting down. Her nonprofit, and that was a huge deal because she had started this with a sense of like, I'm gonna do this for the rest of my life.

Like, I found my thing and then got burnt out and needed to step away from it was learning a ton about it, from all those experiences and as we talked and uncovered, okay, like where do you feel these inklings? What do you really desire? One of the things that emerged is she's like, I love plants.

I love being in my garden. I love helping other people [00:19:00] in their garden. If I could do this, I think that would be amazing. And then sure enough, as she started to explore, experiment, try some steps, she started a whole business creating natively appropriate gardens for people where she lives in California and.

Sort of like drought resistant and like appropriate to the environment. Last I checked in with her, she was like, yeah, I'm about to do this project with the city. They want me to do this planting. Things like that where it's like the inklings of things that people imagine or start to dream up it is just wild to see how that unfolds and how God makes a way when before when we first started to chat, there was no way she could have known that.

But I just love watching how. God has doors to open that we sometimes don't even think about or conceive of.

Dan: So good. You said that word experimentation. I know that's a big thing for you and I'm just wondering if we could go a little bit deeper on that.

I think live in a society where people can get stuck, they can be uncertain, they [00:20:00] can be trapped by like their own fears or expectations or social, this or that.

And we just stop.

That's not where God wants us in motion. He wants us to be moving. And sometimes like I wanna get to kind of integration momentum in a little bit, but sometimes when we're just at a dead stop, like God needs to get our wheels spinning and just experimentation is one of the ways that like we can kind of get our wheels going and begin to get some of that momentum.

And so I'm just wondering like when people do feel stuck and unsure how can like. Those small acts of experimentation actually become steps of faith and obedience.

Tracey: Well, you said a key thing there in your question, which is that I think sometimes people get stuck because they feel overwhelmed.

So something that can be really helpful is to make the action steps small and make it as small as it it needs to be. Because again, I think sometimes people when they get in a place of transition or confusion or a stuckness. They'll think, well I [00:21:00] can't quit my job and, you know, do something really, really different and drastic so then I can't do anything.

And that's sort of a mistake I think in the thinking. Just 'cause you can't do the most dramatic, drastic thing doesn't mean you can't do anything. So can you find the right small but meaningful next step? And if you can shrink the size of the experiment. To make it fit what you feel like you have capacity for, that's gonna serve you so much better than feeling like you need to do the most.

So oftentimes I try to help people, you may not feel like you have enough again to like quit your job, let's say if that's the thing that they're thinking about. But you might have it in you to have set up a coffee with somebody who knows something about the thing that you're entertaining or you might have it in you to.

Do a half hour of internet research about a potential new field and learn a bit more. Even something that small, [00:22:00] if you know how to pay attention to some of those questions of I call it your inner compass of how you have listened to that and set that up can give you a lot of really helpful guidance.

Making the experiments as small as they need to be often is. A new way of thinking for people, because I think we tend to put too much on ourselves sometimes and think like, oh my goodness, like I can't possibly do everything, so then we do nothing. Well, it's like, no, you can do something.

You can do a little step. And if you need to make it small, that's no problem. That's actually really helpful. It's gonna give you a lot of insight again, if you know how to reflect on it and listen to it and sort of glean the lessons from it.

Dan: I was thinking about that and the Bible verse that came to my mind was don't despise the days of small beginnings.

So many times we want to go from zero to a hundred or we want to go from, hey, I'm building this shack to now I'm building this city sort of thing. And I think in some ways, especially with social media [00:23:00] nowadays, like we think that that's how it should be.

In fact, we've done different investments as far as like renovations for homes and things before, when you watch HCTV and you watch them do the whole thing in 25 minutes with commercials and everything, you think like, man, I'm gonna grab my hammer, and let's start pulling our kitchen apart.

Then you realize it doesn't quite go as fast as it does in the show. And inevitably, these show they're real honest and you see them like, ah, we came across this problem in the wall. And then you realize, wait, it's gonna cost us another, this and that.

I think that's sometimes how life goes. But the reality of it is starting and that small start, God can move us into those things, but he just needs us to trust him. Like that's why he's like that whole idea of this look, it only take the faith the size of a mustard seed for me to do so many different things.

But I just need you to start. I just need you to take that first step.

Tracey: I love that verse. That's great.

Dan: So now we're starting. We've gotten up off the couch. We've taken that step of obedience. We feel like, God, you know, I want [00:24:00] this, it align up with the spirit.

It lines up with the word. We feel like this is one of the things that God's called us into. We've taken that first step. Maybe an experimentation, maybe we've obeyed, we've started small. Now one of the big things is momentum, and this is something you talk about, it's integration and momentum.

I'm just wondering how do we weave God-given desires into everyday routines? So faith isn't com compartmentalized and it's fully embodied. How do we gain momentum in our daily routines? Because it's not just like, Hey, I got up and I experimented yesterday.

And now just gonna automatically propel me into that. And so I'm just wondering how do we do that with our daily routines and build that integration and our momentum in our lives?

Tracey: Well, I think it goes to needing to have a new skillset to understand that any outcome that you come across, God can use, that God can speak through that.

We tend to be very binary in our thinking, like success or failure. Like, yes, I tried something and succeeded, or it failed. But the reality of our lives, and especially in the day to day, is it's not always that [00:25:00] stark. A lot of times there's a lot of in between. And I think again it's all about having curiosity with those things and learning how to ask better questions of the types of things that we find.

So for example, one thing I talk about when we're in this stage is. Needing to grow our tolerance for something like disappointment I think that's often a thing that people come up against when they're trying to think about this question of what do they want or experimenting is, oh, no, what if I get disappointed?

What if I say I want this and I tried it, and then it doesn't work out. Like I get a no, I get rejected. There's some sort of quote unquote failure or disappointment there, and people are so terrified of even just. The possibility of this happening that oftentimes that's enough to shut down any kind of next steps or experimentation to begin with, but when they find themselves in it, so this is part of my story as well.

So I'm not trying to downplay it or say that it [00:26:00] isn't hard. It can be really painful to come to that place of disappointment. Like, oh, I really went for this thing and I thought I wanted it, and yet here's a closed door. But even something like disappointment. It can still get us closer to where God has us to be and what we want if we know how to listen to it.

So when I experienced a huge disappointment in my life and journey, a mentor asked me, well, could you think about what you specifically wanted? Not only did you want this opportunity, but what specifically did you want about it? And if the more detailed you can be, the more that you can hone in on what God might be saying.

In that moment. And that was some of the best advice I've ever gotten about disappointment, because I think it can be really easy to just glaze over it. Like, okay, well I'm not putting myself in any position where that's even a gonna be remotely possible. I'm gonna protect myself from it. Or to be in it and think, well, that was total [00:27:00] failure.

I think, it can be really hard, but the more that we learn how to find what's underneath it. So in this case, for me, I was like, I wanted to work with leaders. I wanted to have a new challenge. I felt kind of like I was ready to learn. I wanted to feeling of like, I don't know what I'm doing, but I have to figure it out.

So when I identified some of those underlying desires, then it was easier for me to say, okay, well. It didn't happen in this job, in this opportunity, but it could happen somewhere else. I could find that that's not the only place where that desire can live. And it just opened up possibilities to hear God and continue in the process and find that momentum like that word that you used, rather than feeling like, okay, well that's the end of that, I guess, you know?

But I think if we learn how to lean into it and listen to it, actually God has a lot to say in those moments and can really. Give us some of our best momentum. But again, I find a lot of us are sort of lowkey [00:28:00] terrified of even just like coming anywhere near that. So we're like, Nope, I'm not, I'm gonna insulate myself from that as much as I can.

And I wanna say like, it's not the worst thing in the world. There are worse things than getting disappointed. And I think one of them is never trying at all and never even asking these questions or never exploring to see what could be there. So that's one thing that I find is a helpful shift if we can try to make that

Dan: Yeah, I just wanted to go a little bit deeper on that. I'm not sure we've ever really tackled that topic and that subject before on this show and that word you said, disappointment.

Disappointment is a big deal in life. Just every single life walks through a disappointment.

As a coach, I know you've seen, from just kind of your everyday people you work with some of the highest level people in sports or in academics or whatever. And so you've seen this across a lot of different spectrums. And I'm just wondering if you've been able to observe and maybe even just in your own life, when is it [00:29:00] appropriate or how do we best discern in our lives?

When is time to, I'm gonna use this a fishing term. I'm not even a fisherman, but I hope I use this term appropriately, but there's this idea of cutting base. This idea of like, I'm trying to catch something and we're snagged and I just need to cut the line and start over.

But there's times for cut and bait and just like, man, I'm disappointed. It's come to a closes. Then you look at Hebrews and you look at these people. I think about even Abraham, like he said, he waited patiently and that's not just waited as far as like did nothing, but another word for that is endured patiently.

He kept on pushing forward and we look at Hebrews 11 of these people who just kept going no matter. Came because they knew what they wanted to do. They knew what they were called to do and they never gave up. And so I'm just wondering, what are some tools, what are some different ways you've learned to help people navigate when it's time to cut bait and when it's time to just keep going no matter what it costs?

Tracey: Such a great question. I think that is one of [00:30:00] the most important questions we can wrestle with because I think that kind of discernment is so valuable and it's so hard because it's not the same for all of us. Even on in one person's life that can look differently. I think this is why when I talk about the authentic alignment, I really try to help people start from a place that's internal, from an inner knowing and an awareness of how God has made you and paying attention to.

The details and the nuances of that, like knowing what is for you and what isn't for you. And I think you only do that by understanding how God has shown up in your past experiences to be able to understand what that will look like in the future. One thing I talk about in the book is this idea of calibration.

So calibrating to be able to understand how God has wired you. And what that means as far as what's for you and what isn't for you and what you are like when you're [00:31:00] in environments that bring out your giftedness and your best. And when you're in places where it's not the right fit for you. Trusting what you find in that, trusting that God has wired you uniquely.

And it's important to listen to those things. I think that discernment becomes so important when you're in a live situation. And you're trying to figure out, like you said, is this a, like keep going, like throw the lines out more or try a different spot? Or is it like, Nope. Time to cut, bait and call it a day?

I don't think you can have great answers unless you've known what that looks like in the past.

You've seen previous experiences. In that scenario that was right for me to keep with it or, Nope, I stayed with that too long. I could have said no more quickly. 'cause that just wasn't right for me.

I think it's about self-awareness, knowing yourself. 'cause that's often the kind of question that nobody else can really tell that to you, right? If you were to bring that to even [00:32:00] someone that really knows you and loves you, like, okay, what is this? Should I keep going Or should I, and I don't know that someone else can tell you like, Nope, you gotta keep going, or, Nope, you should leave it.

It's like, no. Oftentimes. That has to come from a place of inner knowing and God speaking to

Your soul on a deeper level. But I think you only come by that if you've spent some time to understand how that's happened before. And listening to some of your own stories and how God has shown up in the past.

Dan: I Know that's a big thing for you, a spiritual formation, right? The prayer and examine and silence. I'm just wondering, like, can you help us clarify, how do you do that in your own life and how do you coach people into doing that?

Because like you said. Oftentimes we have to go into that secret place, that internal and have that internal dialogue and prayer before we can know the answer to that. So I'm kind of putting the cart before the horse in that question, but let's go back

And talk about the spiritual formation in people's lives and [00:33:00] what are some of the different routines that you champion, that you see people having success with and you know, tell us more about the idea of spiritual formation.

Tracey: I think as I've journeyed, I think my ideas about spiritual formation have also broadened.

In my say twenties, I don't know that I would've said that nature was a primary place where I feel spiritually formed. But. Right now in my life, it definitely is. That's one of the places I experience God the most is when I get to be out in creation and be amongst beautiful trees and plants and birds and that's what speaks to my soul.

I think some of it is allowing yourself to evolve and grow in, depending on the stages of the season of life that you're in because I think sometimes again, it can be easy to be like, there's one right way. Like it has to look like this. I find that God is a God of variety and creativity and that how we connect most with God can evolve over time.

And so our spiritual formation [00:34:00] practices there's a great book by a woman named Adele Calhoun and she talks about different spiritual disciplines and spiritual practices. And I loved it because it was things that I think might escape our attention. Just a practice of presence or a practice of breath.

There's just so many different ways that we can experience being formed. And I think it's all about listening to what feels right in the season that we're in, and paying attention to where do we feel like God is showing up the most, and giving ourself space even to experiment with that versus like, oh, it has to look like a formula for forever and ever.

And I find that as I get older and older and more and more gray hair, that that's the thing that it gets impressed on me the most.

Dan: I know we've been hitting a lot of these from a spiritual angle too and we can still keep that tone, but you've written a lot about like kind of this myth of goal setting.

As a coach, coaches set goals, right? This is we gotta go after right now. And you kind of eventually keep on moving the post and eventually they get to where they wanna be. But you talk about a concept of [00:35:00] like the myth of goal setting.

So I'm wondering what you mean by that? I'm just wonder what are some myths that Christians should maybe let go of when discerning God's will

Tracey: Well, I find that a lot of people, I sort of pick on this idea of New Year's resolutions, where a lot of times New Year's resolutions, I named some stats about that.

Like there's a wildly high rate of failure with these types of goals because they're often kind of arbitrary. They're not really coming from a place of self-awareness. They're not really coming from a place of asking ourselves, what do we really want? It's usually more out of a, what should I do? And then sort of pick out of like obligation or a feeling of guilt.

I find that it can serve its purpose, I guess, at times, but I find that such a limited way to think about goals and not the only way to think about them. So I try to help people think about goals from a place of like, what would make you excited? What do you actually want to do?

Could we look at that? Could we pay attention to that? Versus just like, well, I should [00:36:00] do this, or, you know, this is the goal that everyone is supposed to have. And so it's sort of taking it from feeling like a goal is kind of arbitrary and very obligation based, and sometimes even guilt based to more desire based.

Like what do you feel invited into? What really lights you up to think about? What would you be excited about? That's one of my favorite questions. When thinking about goals is like, okay, so if you're trying to imagine goals for say like this next month, okay, at the end of this month, what would make you really excited to be able to say that you had done?

It often leads to really different answers, is the thing that I've noticed is that when people first think about goals, their immediate reaction is like, well, I should do this, or it could be this. And they're like, okay, I'm gonna really.

It like grit my teeth and do this thing. That's sort of like the emotion around that versus I notice there's really different answers and a different kind of emotion when you say, well, what would make you excited? I talk about this example where I was talking to someone about her degree program.

She was pursuing high [00:37:00] higher education, her ma in seminary and it was like, okay, well what should my goal for this other than finishing this degree? And it was like, okay, here's a certain set of answers that I think are like the right things or what I should do. But when I asked her like, well, what would really excite you by the time you graduated?

What would excite you about like what you were to get out of this degree? She's like, well, I would love to teach people, empower other people, show them what I am learning and create other learning spaces. It was a totally different answer than sort of the should based, obligation based kind of goal setting.

I'm not trying to say that. There isn't a time and a place where you just like gotta get a thing done. Like I get that, like that's important, but I'm trying to say that's not the only way to approach goals. And I think sometimes it can be appropriate to ask yourself what is the right kind of goal?

Even this, right? Like for something like your spiritual life or your spiritual vitality, I don't know. I think that you're kind of limited if you only have one framework for what that could look [00:38:00] like. And it can often be more helpful to ask. What feels inviting, what feels good, what sounds motivating?

Let's start from a place of interest and motivation and desire. Trust that God will lead you in that rather than goals are only like, I gotta grit my teeth and like, get through this thing that I hate. That's often a little bit more expansive and opens up possibilities for folks.

Dan: Tracy, you are just hitting on it. Like, I love how you get to the heart of the father.

Because the heart of the father is love and where like he asked, should be from desire. He operates out desire. We're not like pawns. We're not like these people just being moved around to ultimately accomplish God's purpose and he doesn't care about this and that like it doesn't care about us.

But rather to your point earlier about how he asks us right from the get go, what do you want? Like, what's in your heart? Because when we add passion to what we're doing, when we have enthusiasm that just naturally propels us into success oftentimes. [00:39:00] But so many times we get trapped into the should.

My sister, she's one of those people that you can always go to and she just always makes you laugh. And I remember her looking at me and one time she said, Dan, don't should on yourself, you know? And like, stop shooting on yourself.

There's so much, I mean, it sounds kind of funny, but like there is so much depth to that statement.

Because like when we are standing in a crossroads what we should do, what we feel we should do, what is illuminating, what's pulling our heart at our heart.

Oftentimes, not all the time. I mean, we have to have some spirituality. We have to run this by the word and things like that. But oftentimes, what's pulling in our heart? Oftentimes that lines up with the word, like that's where God wants to pull us. It's like the whole idea of missional life.

Living into the mission that God has for each of us. It's often, it's what we want. The mission of life doesn't need to be the miserable life. But so many times people have that perspective of God that as long as he's accomplishing a purpose, it doesn't matter whether your life is miserable.

And yet you're hitting at the heart of the father. What does he want, like he [00:40:00] works with desire because he wants us as children to go after those things that bring us most life. That's the abundant life that he wants to give us, right? I so love the idea, and I know you've kind of written this book for a broader audience, but the heart of it is true, like the magic of knowing what you want.

And so I'm just wondering as we are conscious of your time and kind of wrap this up, if there's one truth. You hope, from your book that Christians and just people in general would carry into their daily life about knowing what God wants for them.

What would that be?

Tracey: I think it would be for people to know that they are made uniquely that they each bear God's image in a way that's very personal and very unique to who they are. And to experience God's blessing and presence and as you said, love through that place rather than self-judgment or self accusation.

Dan: Awesome. Well, we've got some fun questions. We wanna always dive deep. We wanna come back a little bit for some air, so we've got a few questions we'd like to wrap up here. Amanda, I [00:41:00] think you've got a couple, these are gonna be pretty tough. Tracy, are you ready?

Amanda: Oh, let's try you.

I'm, I'm willing. I'm willing. Yeah. Right. So which biblical character do you think struggled most with knowing what they wanted?

Tracey: Oh my gosh. That I've never been asked that question in my whole life. I think Moses, maybe Moses, I think had a lot of internal tension with his journey and how he was hearing from God and how that intersected with his story and how that all unfolded.

Yeah.

That's

Amanda: good.

Love it.

Amanda: Right. Which parable of Jesus do you think best describes your coaching style?

Tracey: Such a good question. I love this one. I have always loved the parable of Jesus finding the treasure in the field. And actually that was the passage that we had preached at my wedding when I got married to my husband.

But I think that as a coach, I've come back to it because obviously that's talking about the worth of the gospel and, how valuable the gospel is. [00:42:00] But I think it also can be true of how God has implanted who we are, our uniqueness in our lives. And if we know how to search for it and find it.

There's gold there, there's treasure there that people can uncover. So that's one that I think about a lot.

Amanda: Wow. So good.

Dan: Alright. Can you handle another one? Maybe one more for you.

Tracey: Bring it on.

Dan: Alright. If you could ask one biblical character about how they discern God's calling, who would it be?

Tracey: You all are really putting me through my paces. Another stumping question. Let's see. Ask them, say again how they discerned their calling from him. Yeah. If you

Dan: could ask one biblical character about how they discerned God's calling, who would it be?

Tracey: that is so hard. I'm gonna have to think on this one a little bit, but.

I have always, for a long time been drawn to the woman who breaks her flask over Jesus's feet. We don't even get her name. We don't know her story, [00:43:00] but Jesus gives her one of the most lavish affirmations and tells her like wherever the gospel is shared, like your story will be told.

So she's really honored. I would just love to hear more about her journey. How did she experience God to do this beautiful act, sacrificial act and how did she know that was the right thing or, yeah. I don't know. I've always been curious about her and her story.

Dan: Amen. And last one, which disciple's personality do you relate to most? And which one would you least want to share a road trip with?

Tracey: Which one do I relate to the most? I mean, we get so much about Peter, his ups and downs. He feels very human to me. So I think in that way he's easy to relate to. He's not filtering, he's not like checking himself off it. He is just like saying what's on his mind. So I've always loved that about him.

Road trip. One of the disciples. 'cause I feel like Paul would, might be like a hard person to be around, but he might be hard to like, share [00:44:00] space with, I don't know, just a.

It might be kind of like a lot.

Dan: That's, you know, I've never thought about it, but I can see your point in that. That's really, yeah.

Well, hey Tracy. Man, what an honor to have you on the show. Tell us, you know, where can our listeners get your new book, the Magic of Knowing What You Want, and How Can They Connect with you? Tracy.

Tracey: Awesome. Thank you so much for having me. It's been such a delight. My book is everywhere You can buy a book, so, places like Amazon Bookshop,

it's up there ready to go. You can get it direct from my publisher. Often that's the best price at Baker Publishing. And connection. I like to connect with folks on Instagram. My handles@tracyg.me. , That's where I like to hang out and chat with folks. And then, I also do have a template for imagining desire based goals.

I call it a three by five method for how to sort of picture your life. So you can get that on my website if that's of interest to you. It's at my site, Tracy Gee.me/template.

Dan: Awesome. [00:45:00] Listeners, we'll have those in the show notes for you.

Tracey: Perfect.

Dan: Tracy, what an honor to have you on the show. Thank you so much for what you're doing and just bringing wisdom and clarity into such a huge topic.

It's so important to dig into these issues. And I love how you brought just the heart of the father into that as well. Just what do you want? And so, we just need blessing over you and just everything you put in your hand too in this book. And we just pray that it continues to bless people all throughout the nations and just continue to, look forward to seeing how God continues to you in this field.

Tracey: I appreciate that so much. It's been lovely to chat.

Dan: Amen. Thank you so much.

Tracey: Thank you so

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