And just like that. Welcome back into the studio. It's Josh Carey, right here on seven 10 W o R, the voice of New York, and anytime you need it, day or night on that iHeartRadio app. I'm really thrilled to be into the studio today. I have my co-host, Jess Bernard here. Jess, how you feeling today? I'm feeling good. How are you? I'm excellent. So what I really like about today's conversation is you are gonna be, For lack of a better, the female voice for me here, because as we know, I'm the male voice. Now what we're talking about, we have Sarah Whitney in studio with us. She's the author of the book, Pretty Young, being Unapologetically Female in a Man's World. Now, what's interesting is, I don't know what this means, but I can. To this book, I'm a man in a man's world, and I could relate to this book, so I'm very interested to see how this plays. So, Hidden Nation, if you are someone that, mm, just, just, just needs a little direction on how to make heads or tails of this thing called life, we have a very good, uh, version for you. But Jess, I want to get your opinion. What has it been like with that subtitle being unapologetically female? In a man's world, Does that resonate? Oh yeah. I mean, I can really relate. I feel like I've been living in a man's world or realized it since I was like 13. Right? You know that this is a man's world. And what does that mean though? What happened at 13 years? It's hard. It's just hard to be a female. It's different. It's different. It's not that it's not hard to be a male, It's just different. Hard to be a woman. What do you think? Different pressures, Body image, I mean, It's all about being pretty and skinny or you know, just it's different. Yeah. And we don't have those kinds of pressures, right? Like we don't, we don't need to be pretty and skinny. I mean, the dad bod is pretty in right now. Okay. So, I mean, there's no mom bod. So there's all these different pressures, right? Because on the, on the other side, what is our pressure? Stereotypically where, Where the ones that are sent out, right? To make the Provide to provide. Sure. So just like a first date, when you go on a first date, the man is expected to pay. Although it's, you know, different these days. But even the first date, the man should still pay many women's days. So ultimately it's just a man's world. And I mean, every boss I've ever had has been a man. Interesting. And I think that's, I think there's, I don't know the statistics, but I know there's a lot less women bosses to male bosses in general and even in smaller terms, you know, whether it's CEO or. Just manager. What's interesting is, funny enough, I want to bring Sarah right onto the mic. Uh, welcome to the show, by the way, Sarah. Hello. Hello. How are we? I am excellent. I'm so glad you brought this book. To the table today, literally, because like I said, I can relate to this cuz short and sweet, my story as the Hidden Entrepreneur spent four plus decades hiding all of my true talent and ability in exchange for desperately wanting to seek approval. Mm-hmm. is that sort of a through line of what could be related in the book? Um, yeah, definitely. I mean, I wrote the book like I was telling you earlier, before we hopped on the mic. I feel like a lot of the experiences that girls go through, whether that be, like Jessica was saying, body image, mental health, just not feeling adequate or good enough. I feel like a lot of that is expressed later on in life by women, um, either through books or interviews. No one is really my age. I'm 25 years old. I feel like no one is really capturing that exact feeling in the moment. And that's kind of, that was my goal writing the book. I wanted to capture exactly how I was feeling at 23 when I was writing it. And so, yeah, that's kind of how this book came about. And I know that the reception has been extraordinary. We're gonna get into some of the specifics, but something Jess was saying about the bosses she's had have been. Your current boss, I know is is a woman, right? Mm-hmm. You're employed by Vayner, currently. Vayner three. Formerly Vayner. Nft. And even before that you were with Vayner Talent? Mm-hmm. as a copywriter, right? Yes. And now your boss is a woman. Yes. So what is that environment like? Does that, does that change anything? What do we say about. Uh, Jess's statement about, you know, the majority of bosses being men. Yeah. I've had 50 50 actually, um, in college. I had a lot of male bosses when I was working in internships, but actually after college post grad I've had a lot of women leaders, so that's amazing. I think it definitely, um, women have a tendency, and not to say that men can't, but women have a tendency to bring vulnerability up to the forefront of their leader. Whereas men, I don't necessarily find that, um, not to say you can't mm-hmm. but that's one thing I've really appreciated about having women leaders is the vulnerability, empathy, and just overall, I think communication in terms of, you know, bringing your personal life and your professional life together in a beautiful way. I think. Is really what I get out of female leadership. Jess, if she's talking about this empathy angle for the female bosses, have you found in your professional career with the male bosses, is there a distinct lack of that connection and empathy and compassion? I mean, I, I don't know. I think it's just different. I think, you know, I, I've just been. I've just not had many women bosses, but of course, you know, there are out there and many people have. But, um, you know, I, it's, you know, it, I would imagine it is. I would imagine it's very different. I've just, I honestly never had a female boss. So, as the male boss, you have felt, uh, now that you're thinking about it, there's. Is there, is there a lack of empathy and compassion? I know that somebody like Gary at the top of Vayner Media, of course, is mm-hmm. that's, that's what he's all about. Exactly. Right. Bringing empathy to the forefront of, of everything. You know, I think I've been lucky to have pretty decent bosses too, so I think they have had empathy. Maybe not as much as a woman would naturally have. Um, but I don't know. Yeah, I just don't know. Jess, we were talking about the, the message. Or at least one of the messages that you as a young female continually hear about what it takes to succeed as an entrepreneur, however you're going to define that, or as a woman in the workplace, I imagine, And part of it you were saying, is that what that, that the message you're always hearing is that you have to, you have to do what? You have to put yourself out there. What does that mean? Mm-hmm. I feel like as women, especially nowaday, We have to either be pretty, we have to, you know, just show up on social media constantly. We kind of have to look like that influencer that we see on TikTok, Instagram, whatever social media platform you decide to show up on. And that can be stressful a lot of the times because what if we don't look like that? What if we don't, you know, present ourselves? Or what if we don't necessarily want to showcase our entire personal. On the internet. I feel like oftentimes that's the message, especially women who are younger are interested in entrepreneurship. That's kind of the message we've been told. Or have been told, I guess, over the last, It's been a short while since obviously TikTok took off, but we can see how it's influenced life as we know it, just in terms of like marketing and everything. But I think that's the message we've been kind of feeding ourselves. So it's kind of like, okay, how do we counteract that? How do we go from here and how do we actually show up authentically as ourselves? And obviously you have. Kind of go with the times. You have to understand how social media works. If you want your business to, you know, do well, to a certain extent, you have to personal brand yourself. But how much do you have to do it? Do you actually have to feed into what society is telling us about being X, Y, and Z? Or do you, can you actually go off and do your own? And the, the irony is that once you take this said advice and put yourself out there, what then winds up happening? Everyone then tries to tear you down. Yeah. So I feel like oftentimes if we do then show up on social media, do the whole thing, whatever avenue or industry you want to kind of represent, you, show up on social media being vulnerable because you know, it takes a certain level of vulnerability to go on social media. You know, put your. out there and show off X, Y, and Z your knowledge. And oftentimes, especially on TikTok, I've noticed people are very ruthless. I don't know why I, I don't know why they feel like they can hide behind this little, um, avatar that they have, but they're ruthless. And then mm-hmm. when you experience that level of. Hatred from, you know, random people that you have no idea who they are. You don't know where they live, You don't know. Yeah. You don't have any context. That's really debilitating for women who want to kind of continue down the path of entrepreneurship. Yeah. I mean, I think what you said before too, it takes a lot of courage to even make the videos and posts and be so out there on social media to begin with, right? I mean, and it takes a lot of work to become good at it and to be famous and to really make. Exactly. Like, it's just, it's, it's a different world. I mean, it's, it's very scary. But yeah, I mean, everything you said is just so true. It's, yeah, and people think it happens overnight. Like even something like what we're doing right now, like this would be nerve-wracking for a lot of people. Like putting yourself out there is nerve-wracking and like you're always gonna have someone tear you down. But I think in the context of when you do it at such a young age, from, I, I don't know from childhood to say. 22, like still, or just about to graduate college. Those are prime years of your life where you're still figuring out your identity. And not to say that we don't always figure out, you know, we're not constantly, you know, trying to figure out that and evolve and stuff like that, but I feel like those prime years, when you hear such negative things about yourself and you're in this questioning mode, that can be really detrimental to just your overall view of how you view yourself, how you view life, where you're going, the whole nine. It's, it's amazing that you mentioned the word fame. Is that, is there a level of that? Is, is that the end result we're going for? Well, I mean, some of the, you know, I, I watched some, you know, Charlie d Mayo, I don't know, dance like, so there are many. You know, famous girls out there. And even now, and now the young, like young, I mean, I'm 31, but I, it's so much, it's so different like some of these girls who are really good at it, like this one girl, Olivia Ponta, whatever, but now she's like the media person for Sports Illustrated based on the fact that she was just amazing at, you know, social media. And it's all about the pressure. Everything you write about, I mean, your beginning line, you know, I think I've seen you at the gym before. It's like, that's like every guy says and that's what life, what is all. Yeah. Tell me, wait, what? What'd you just say? I said like, you know, I, one of the. It starts with your book, starts with, I think I've seen you in the gym before, like on the first page. And I mean, that's like what every guy says, right? Mm-hmm. and the gym is such a big part of life, so Yeah. And a lot of it revolves around looks, unfortunately. Yeah. Even though you know, it should be revolved around your actual wellbeing and health and fitness, but, Looks is, looks so much, you know, I don't wanna be too vain, but Yeah. So I want to ask each of you how, if that's, I don't know, Is, is that just a, a, a matter of fact of life that you have to figure out how to accept or work with that it is about looks or how do you either tone that down or play. I mean, I don't wanna be too real here, but go for it. It's nothing worse than to be not cute, right? Not really these days. I don't know. It just seems, it's like it's different. Why is having a cute face, as you say, Jess, is, is that the, It's pretty important. Does that solve everything or does that come with its own problems, or is where Do a bit of both, right? Yeah, always. Well, does it solve everything? No, it doesn't solve everything. I mean, it could solve everything. It depends. Depends on your standards, but No, I'm just kidding. Yeah. But when you are talking about a, a physical appearance mm-hmm. but that can only go so far to your goals, right? Oh, of course, of course. I mean, yeah, I mean, it, it's tricky because obviously looks aren't everything. I think number one is working on yourself and being at peace with how you look regardless of how you popped out of, you know, your mom's womb. Those were the looks you were given. And obviously we live in a day and age where plastic surgery is no big. And you know what? If you wanna do that, great. If you don't respect that too, that's kind of besides the point. like basically, I think it's really just working on yourself and yeah, looks can get you far, but I think. At the end of the day, it's like personality too, cuz you can have a pretty face, but if you're a difficult person to work with or if you're just not a nice person, that I think that is worse cuz that can get around. And that's, I think the last thing you wanna hear is Soandso said X, Y, and Z about this person because they're not kind, they're, you know, their integrity is low, all of that. So I. Trying, kind of reframing how we view beauty. Also, I think it should start with like, do you have a beautiful personality? And then Oh, but she has a pretty face too. That's a plus. Cool. But I think it should really be focusing on like young girls should be focusing on, do I have a great personality? Cuz that's someone's gonna sell at the end of the day because our looks fade at the like, Our looks fade. We, we grow old and you know, we might not look how we did when we were 20, and that's totally fine, but you always have your personality. And there are, I mean, nowadays every girl is, is pretty. That's also what makes it crazy. It's all about having a personality too, because I swear every girl I see is pretty these days. Whether you're 20 to 67, I don't know how how hot you could be past 70, but I mean, hey, I've seen Jane Fonda's gonna start working now. No, she is. That's true. That's true. What am I saying? What I'm saying? But she's got a lot of money. Not, I mean, she has some help. Yes. And that's okay. Money makes things different. But, but these days, you know, and that, and that's the point. It's more, it's so much more about, you know, personality. It doesn't matter how tall or short you are. I mean, and nowadays, like, you know, surgery or not every girl has. A lot of girls have figured out how to be cute. You know? I, Yeah, guys, I don't know. They're, they're still on their way to figuring out, out. I'm just kidding. Well, like you're getting at Jesse, we have any attractive men. I'm kidding. Well, and, and we all have like, uh, I'm no six foot two, Right. Let's be real. So I'm, you know, five, I'm, I'm in, I'm in my five something, you know. Um, uh, but um, so I mean, that comes with its own. insecurities growing up, does it not, right? Mm-hmm. because just like you're talking about cute face, um, whether or not this face will get me in the door, then it's like, Oh, wait. Oh, oh, there he is. Oh, I didn't see hims. You really had to be interesting. Yeah, small. So I've learned early on, like we all do, you learn to sort of, um, find your place through what you're given and how the world is reacting to you. I developed a, uh, a very difficult, uh, insecurity. For much of my young life and through a, a good portion of my adulthood that I used, I tried using my personality, my, my cleverness, my wit, and my sense of humor to sort of work through that. Um, have you, have you developed some of the same traits in. Working through insecurity? Yeah, I mean, I, I mean, growing up I used to be, I was on the chubbier side, you know, I had carried a lot of baby weight and because of that I was made fun of a lot. And that obviously for any child, when you hear your classmates telling you that you're like fat or you have like you. Like, not how everybody else does, then that can obviously tear you down, especially, you know, when you're hearing that one at four or five years old. Which another thing when you're Yes. Wow. And when you're, you remember that? Yeah. That was actually one of my first memories when I was four years old, who told you, My best friend at the time, we were playing mermaids, um, in our swimming pool. Pool and so innocent. I know that was like the most innocent thing you could do. And she told me that. And that was something I just like stuck with me. What'd. She just told me You're fat. And I was, She just still said point blank. And I, I remember just standing there and I was like, I mean, I didn't know this at the time, but like, I didn't think this at the time, but yeah, I had all of my baby weights still on me. I'm four years old. No, it's true. Wow. Yeah. And so young to be young, my mom, should I start dieting? Like it's dangerous, right? It's really dangerous. But how old was the. She was also for So which, which begs a whole other set of conversations. What was going on in her house, right? Yeah, exactly. To even, I mean, who we've, Go ahead. Yeah. Yeah. No, but I mean, and then that wasn't, that was just, wasn't just a one-off conversation. Like I heard that from other people and I think that kind of probably led, I struggled with an eating disorder from like 16 to 20, and so that probably obviously led to. But, um, yeah, I mean, kind of going off to your, back to your original question about what insecurities did I have and what did I rely on and Right. I always knew I could talk. I love talking if you can't tell. Um, and I'm very outgoing, so I love to make people laugh. I'm the entertainer also. Yes. So that, that was what I would do. I remember third grade. Went in front of my class and performed a I'm, I just actually remembered this memory about a few weeks ago, but I went in front of my third grade class and performed a play that I made up with my friends and I was kind of like the ringleader and I was like, Okay, this is what you're gonna do. We made a play and I don't, I don't even remember what it was necessarily about, but I performed in front of class, like stuff like that. That's what I would love to do. I was always performing. I was in theater. You know, in elementary school and stuff like that, dancing. And that's what I really relied on is entertaining others. Yeah. I mean, some of the things too, I have to, you know, go back to what you said about, you know, you being four years old and then throughout the years, you know, things people have said, you know, it, it sits so hard. Like I can remember like, I love my cousin, but you know, when I was like, Think I was 14, 15. She says to me, you know, Oh, you could really be a model if you lost 10, 15 pounds. And I mean, she had a good intention. She's, she's tough, you know? Yeah. She's tough. And, and, but, and then if certain, like, you know, things a friend or said throughout, you know, and I was never like fat or anything like that, you know, but you, and, but then I did, I, you know, Lost 10 to 15 vows and then just, you know, certain things and then you instantly became a model. No, I wish, I wish, wish. No, it doesn't work like that. Yeah. No. At all. Yeah. Oh, but you did lose 10 to 15 because of that statement. Mean, You know, I just, you know, not because of that statement, but more like in high school I was like a little bit, you know, definitely could have lost a few pounds and then in college I just got like, you know, started working out more, eating better. Mm. You know, just stopped eating as many. It's a difference. So I'm also, uh, I also play the role of the entertainer. Um, I, in eighth grade, got bit by the acting bug and realized that, oh my God, here's my drug. All this external applause and accolades. This feels great. This will numb and cure these insecurities that I'm feeling on the inside. It, it didn't, Yeah. But I spent, um, you know, decades of my life as an actor and filmmaker pursuing that. Now it all, you know, there's a lot of good in that, but a lot of it was for those wrong reasons, trying to cure those insecurities through performance. Mm-hmm. and I talk a lot about, like validation too in my book. Mm-hmm. because I think that's such a tricky subject because when we're younger, We're supposed to have validation from our parents, especially, you know, the people who talk to are in our, Yeah. You know, circle and like healthy validation from teachers. But then we also are supposed to get to this point where we begin to go more internal and start to self validate, which I don't think, and you know, psychologists will say this too, not, we're not necessarily taught to do that because, for example, we get like, we're grade. Everything is graded. We get awards for everything. Um, you know, there's ratings. You can name all of these things that have to do with validation and all of it is external. But there is, there needs to be a point where we teach children to look internal and, you know, be your own cheerleader because life gets hard and you need to be able to cheer yourself up and cheer yourself on when you don't have anyone else to do that. And, You saying that you were using acting? Mm-hmm. as a way to get like that was external validation when in reality you needed to go like inward Yes. And get the validation. Yes, Sarah, you get it. That's exactly right. I would, I would get those applause or that laughter. And then when the curtain closed, I was just back again in my, you know, small little apartment. Um, you know, smoking up and trying to numb all that pain. Mm-hmm. that's, you know, we all find our vices, right? Yeah. So, and it doesn't last. Uh, and it's interesting cuz um, what cha you know, I spent, like I said, over four decades in that dark, miserable, seeking approval life, knowing full well. That I am capable of so much more. Here's where a lot of the frustration came from, and so much of what I preach today is that I knew my entire life what I was capable of doing. Mm-hmm. I was just scared outta my mind to do it because I didn't want to be judged or I didn't want to be disliked. Yeah. But it was crazy cuz I knew you do, Do you, do you feel that as well? That we all, you know what you should be doing, even if you're falling short. That's why you're angry, miserable, frustrated, numbing. Yeah. And of course I can relate to that. And alwa and also looking for validation. Just like a lot of, I always just look for validation with ex-boyfriends. I feel like that's what my ex-boyfriend would say, that I look for constant validation, you know? And who is he to give the Val, let's be real, right? I mean, am I onto something like, Right. Like, who is anybody to give you, Right? Mm-hmm. No. Right, Exactly. You need that validation from within yourself. I mean, that's, that's living, right? That's, yeah. That's when you, Yeah. And then I, I currently have a, uh, I, I have two children, which sort of helped take me from there to here over a short period of time. Today my daughter's nine, so I'm interested in getting some, you know, mm-hmm. some, some heartfelt, maybe good advice. And, uh, and my son is, Seven. Okay. Uh, and, you know, during the first couple of years of their lives, I wasn't my best. I was far from it. Mm-hmm. I was still that angry, miserable, frustrated, and depressed. Right. But you know, the frustration of knowing, Wait a minute, I am so much better than this. I knew my whole life I wanted to be a father, but now I have that chance and this is who they're gonna model after. I'm like, No, no, no. Am better than this. And I know we all are better than what we give ourselves credit for at times. So I finally was able to, uh, make the mental shift and start putting the pieces in place to just make better choices. Mm-hmm. in the direction that I knew I needed to go. Yeah. And I think you. You kind of touched on just being honest with yourself too. I think there's a point in life and we all hit that point, you know, at different stages, but you have to like look at yourself in the mirror essentially and be like, Okay, who do I wanna be? Am I living up to the standards that I have for myself? Cuz you're right, we all, I'm a firm believer, like we all are born into this world and. We as young children. Mm-hmm. we all know or have an idea of what we wanna do. Mm-hmm. but then people tell us that idea's stupid, or you know, you can't do it. And we listen to them, which is crazy. Yeah. We listen to them and then we have imposter syndrome because then we try to do what we wanna do, but then those people, you know, that voice starts to rear its. In the back of your, you know, back of your head and, and you're like, Oh wait, I can't do it. So I think, you know, being honest and like looking at yourself in the mirror and being like, Okay, how do I do this? And like, you know, with your children, like you were saying, like, I think the best thing to do is, you know, just be honest with them because they're gonna go through that too. And they need to, like, we need all, we all need parent, like parental figures. Mm-hmm. to be able to, you know, let us know and that they're going through that because that's how you. We prepare our children. Yeah. Guidance is everything. I mean, you know, there, there should be a handbook, right? On how to grow up, Especially if you're a woman. No, I'm just kidding. if you're a male, this might be that. Not I'm pretty young. Book I'm holding in my hand. Exactly. I mean, there's so much you don't know. Of course. If I could go back to one, you know, beginning of high school, I would do it all over again. I'd do it. Amazing. I'd have it all right. This. And, and would I choose to, if possible? Yes. Because of course, um, time is everything. And you realize, you know, as you get older that you, you, when you're young, you think you're like so old, right? then you realize you're, what are you, are you in a better place today than you were recently? No. I mean, I just think you know, a lot more. Mm-hmm. you know, I'm not in my twenties anymore, so that's kind of big for a girl too. It's different. Mm-hmm. and the kids thing. I think passion is everything. Right. Or passion's a lot. It's important in life. Yeah. Passion and grit is what my mom said. And I think grit is, I think that's what's really important because it's a mixture of passion and resilience. Yeah. Because passion can run out at the end of the day, because if you only have passion, but you focus on what people say to you, then that passion's gonna dwindle. So it's like the resilience aspect is super important. To have as well. Absolutely. You have to be so resilient. I mean, you have to have tough skin and I, I can't tell you how brutal life has been at times. Mm-hmm. and know, I feel like as women, we think we're warriors and we are, you know, we can pop out babies for Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And. And look like we didn't a month later to Yeah. I mean, you know, some people can, I'm not there yet, but it scares me. I don't know. But that's not the goal, is it? No, no, not at all. To like be able to do that and like, Hey, I win. Because I was able to, as you said, pop out a baby and then look like I didn't die. I was making a terrible joke. No, I know, but I'm just bringing that conversation now to the forefront and saying, Well, because cuz some people would say no, for me, that is the. Well, I don't know if that should be their whole goal. I mean, they want a family too. I mean that should be pretty important. Yeah, I mean, I feel like if that's a goal, it's fine to have that goal, but don't make it your everything because that kind of just goes back to, looks like you need to be taking care of your body. Cuz who knows whatever happened during, you know, your pregnancy or after, there's a lot of complications. You need to be care like at the end of the day, now you're caring for another human. You need to put that human in front of. And so, but that's, that's such a big thing. I mean, I have a dog and that's a lot and I love my dog. My dog's five years old, but I really, I hate to leave my dog alone. Um, you know, it goes deeper than that, but just, it's, it's a big deal to have. I know. It's like, it's kind of like a baby human. It real. Oh, it is. Oh my gosh. I love my dog to death. It's, it's, you know, I, I, I do pull, put her in a stroller sometimes, although she walks on the leash, but, you know, anyway. My point is it's a lot to have a family, I think. I feel like, you know, at one point it was a lot more, you know, I hate to say the baby boomer generation, but that it was just the standard thing to just to have kids that have a family. I do know a lot of women who are, who chose not to have a family, you know, or independent women, or whether they're in a relationship or not. But not everybody has kids necessarily these days or in general. Mm-hmm. I want to go back, Sarah, to something you said earlier. Your, your late teens. You had this eating disorder. You mind mm-hmm. Talking a little through what that was like. Yeah. So when I was 16, or actually I can back up a little bit, kind of, I mentioned how I struggled with those comments from classmates and everything and just. I became very aware of my body at an very, very young age because of those comments. I feel like a lot of girls don't really start focusing on their looks until, you know, they're 12, 13, you know, start to hit puberty. But for me, I had always been very conscious of how I looked because of the comments that I received. Wow. And so when I was 15, I kind of just realized, I was like, Okay, I wanna like lose weight. That was the time I think Instagram had just. And one of my friends at the time, she was like, There's this new app, I think, I think we were honestly in like eighth grade. And she's like, There's this new app and like you need to follow it. And it's amazing. And obviously Instagram has evolved and, but there's still some similar aspects, but. Right when it came out, there was a lot of just Photoshopped girls of bikinis. Just think, you know, Victoria Secret everywhere. Yeah. It was weird when it first came out. It was, Yeah, it was exactly different. Now looking back we're like, why did we use that app? It was kind of strange. I even look at my first. Photos like I ever posted from Instagram. And they were, they were much different. Oh yeah. They were photoshopped a bit. They were some even black and white. Like what was they thinking? Yeah, I mean it was all, it's all kind of cringe, but yeah. Um, I guess that's how it goes, but, So seeing that, seeing that those girls, how they looked, all the comments I received, and then dealing with a lot of insecurities, like I was not confident. Which is funny because now people meet me and they're like, You're so confident. I'm like, Well, I had to build that up. Do you feel confident? Is that Yes, I do. And I feel like there's never a cap though. Oh, sure. You know? Yeah. I love that. There's always. You're always continually growing. Oh yeah. And I'm sure like, you know, that's the way in 10 years, Yeah. I'm gonna look back and be like, oh my gosh. Like I was so insecure. But I make that comment too, where I like, like today for example, like I'm pretty comfortable with like the hair. And like the, the shirt and the little, I like the hair in the shirt. Well, thank you. Looks great. But to thank you and to the point I, I've said that like in 10 years I'm gonna look back and be like, how could I have thought that this was anything where I'm like leading with my best foot forward, like mm-hmm. Right? So you're right though. You always, there's always growth, which is good. Yeah. There's always growth. Back then had no, no confidence. Like if you met me, I would've, you would've said hi and I would've just crumbled It was, it was sad, and I think that was my way of controlling, like developing an eating disorder. A lot of it is control too, is Yeah, I've heard that. Because you know, food, that's the one thing you can control. You can't control how people treat you. You can't control. You know, I mean, to a certain extent you can control what grades you get, but you know, you can't control school work. All of the family life dynamics, all of that. You can't control that. So when you're a teenager, what are you gonna control? You're gonna control how you look and food. And so that's kind of the path I went down and it was very, very dark and it got pretty bad, honestly. But did anybody know? See, and then that, that's the other thing. Um, I. A little bit. I started opening up to it to my friends, but to my family. I remember I hit this like point where I'm like, Okay, it's like this is gonna kind of like destroy me or I need to go to therapy. And so I asked my mom. I was like, I need to go to therapy. I have anxiety and depression, but I didn't say the eating disorder because you know, I feel like even now, mental health and mental illness, it's a very much more talked about thing. even, you know, 10, 12 years ago. Different landscape. Yes. It's still very different. And you know, my parents, you know, generation, they didn't really talk about that. They were like, You suck it up. You put on, you put on a smile on your face and you get through life. Life is hard. That's kind of what they taught me. And that's nothing wrong on them. That's what they learned. So that's what they taught me. The best they knew. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And so now I'm much more open about it. Even writing this book and kind of having all of my thoughts and feelings, it's very, it's very interesting for my parents that I, I think at first they didn't know how to, like didn't, they didn't really understand what I was doing. They were like, Why are you doing this? But I, it was kind of like a learning experience, like having to explain like, I'm doing this to help others. I wanna share my store. And I know I have like a lot of value to give for others, but you know, when you're going through, A lot of mental illness or mental health things at such a young age and your family doesn't really quite understand. It can be, it can be really heavy too. What was the way out, cuz obviously you, you're on the better side of that. What wa how did you, was it therapy? Yeah, I mean, I would say therapy. Um. And honestly, I, for my, on my 18th birthday, I made a promise to myself, and I'm the kind of person when I say I'm gonna do something, I'm gonna do it. Like I, there's no stopping me. And I, I told myself, Sarah, you're gonna, you're in recovery mode now. Like, you're, you're just gonna do it. And I understand a lot of people, I wasn't like in an inpatient, Thank God. I like, I didn't get that. So I was never in an inpatient like unit or something like that. So obviously when you, some people who are in that situation, them telling themselves, I'm gonna get better, that might not necessarily work. It worked for me. Mm-hmm. But that's kind of how I got through it. And I, that's when I started getting really into personal development and like spirituality and all of those things. And that has really just helped me overall and I think it really expedited my. As a woman, I feel like I've aged a lot of years. and just going through all of those experiences and yeah, but like I wouldn't take it back because I learned so much about myself and I learned I can honestly do anything if I, if I went through that I can do anything. I love that phrase. You said that you made a promise to your. That resonates cuz for me that phrase was when I was looking at, in the eyes of my two younger children and realizing, wait, I can do better than this. And then I just made a promise to myself to do better than this. And slowly but surely, one moment at a time, um, I'm doing that. Jess, was there, does anything pop in where you made a promise to your. Yeah. I mean, it all really resonates with me like it, and it's really hard to talk about. Mm-hmm. I mean, and it's not, it wasn't talked about so openly up until recently, almost. And yeah, it's, you know, I can, I really can relate so deeply to everything you've said. I mean, every, every day is still still a struggle in a way. Like it's, it's all about what you eat. How much you exercise and different things, and it takes a lot to learn that and to learn how your body works and what works best for you. So I just, I don't know how ready I am to open up about everything but. I can definitely relate. That's fair. Well, I'll, I'll put a pin in that, and then in an upcoming episode, when you feel ready, we'll explore. Is that a good deal? Yeah, that sounds good. That'll give the, the listener, uh, even something more to look forward to. There we go. Awesome. Uh, the, the subtitle of your book, uh, pretty young is being unapologetically Female in a Male's war in a Man's World. What does being unapologetically female look like? I think a lot of it just has to do with owning who you are, and that means the entirety of you. That means all of your, like the good, the bad, the ugly, all of it. And I think just showing up as you are every day, even on a good day or a bad day. I think it's just, that's how you show up. It's just all about just showing up. Yes. Kind of is what I'm. Really is all about showing up. And is there anything we can leave the listener with, um, as a, as a process to be able to do that? Step one to show up? Mm. I would say number one, I mean, first I'll leave you with a quote and then I'll kind of get into it. Mm-hmm. but Ed Mylet, I'm not sure if anyone knows who he is. Love Ed Mylet? Yes. Amazing. Yes. He always says, Confidence is built on keeping small promises to yourself every day. And so that's, Wow. Say it again, please. Yes. Confidence is built on keeping small promises to yourself every day. I hope I quoted that correctly. Maybe not verbatim, but essentially that's what he says. Yes. We'll roll. Yeah. And so that's one thing I always, um, keep in mind, but I would just say, I begin to like explore who you are as a person. I think like journaling is a great way to start tapping into yourself, and then there you begin to, you know, build confidence because you know who you are. You're not ruled by the thoughts of others. Mm-hmm. therapy's obviously a great option if you, you know, if that's in your financial means. Oh, sure. Which obviously it's a big kind of financial burden. That and just kind of making like a, a daily promise to yourself, like, today I'm gonna show up to this meeting feeling this kind of way. And a lot of it is self talk. You're gonna Sure, even if you're feeling kind of down, you have to tell yourself in your brain. I feel confident. I feel confident. Oh, it's a whole rewiring. Yes. It, it really is. Yeah. Yeah. Our brain. You can rewire. I'm really big into that. That's another topic for another day, Yeah. But yeah, it is. Yeah. You, you can do that. And I think a lot of people just say, Oh, this was the brain I was given. This was, this is how I think I'm stuck. I'm like, No, no. You can change your life if you want to it. And that's the key word if you want to. Mm-hmm. Because what I find are, uh, some people, uh, will. Will still revel in that crappy end of their life and really wear it as a badge. And now I see that glaringly because I've stepped out of that life. Yes. And it's like, okay, well you, you all, all good prerogative for you if you want to continue to do that and stay there. Uh, but you don't have to. So if you wanna make excuses, you can. If you want to complain, you can. If you wanna blame you, you certainly. But don't tell me you want better or different without taking any action whatsoever to make it better, because it's all possible. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I, I completely agree. I mean, I don't know what your thoughts are, Jess, but Yeah, no, I agree. I mean, and your daily happiness is like everything, right? So you wanna get up, you gotta get outta bed first, and then it's all about the small promises doing what you, you were planned to do that. And, you know, following through on it and just, and if your routine is everything, and if you can always change your routine, you really can. Mm-hmm. if you want to. Right. Yeah. And it's celebrating like the little wins too, I think. Like we live in a society. Society, yeah. Especially New York. Like, Oh, New York is a tough place. Oh, it's tough. And we don't celebrate the little wins. Yeah. When we, we should, you know, And that's like how you, you know, live life in, in a joyous way while also showing up for your. Yes. Yeah. So there you go. We've covered a lot here, Hidden Nation. I'd love to hear from you as always. hello@joshcarey.com. We spoke about the book Pretty Young, which is available on Amazon. We spoke about, uh, what it's like to be a woman and quite frankly, a man in today's world, and, uh, how we each approach that. Uh, we spoke about what it takes to succeed not only as a person, but in the world of entrepreneurship, celebrating those win. Uh, keeping those promises to yourself, putting yourself out there, even though you know you're gonna be, you're gonna be exposing yourself. That's tough. It's a tough pill to swallow, but let me hear from you and, uh, hear how you, or if you celebrate those wins, if you're ready to celebrate those wins and what you do to keep those promises to yourself. Any final thoughts, Sarah, that you can leave us? Um, just kind of remember to take one day at a time, celebrate those small wins and um, yeah, keep those promises to yourself and show up unapologetically yourself, because that's what this world needs, honestly. Absolutely. Jess, how's it all feeling? No, I celebrate small wins all day, every day. I mean, that's how we like it. You do. I mean, I really do. In my head, you. I did. Seriously, That's really, No, I swear. I swear. Yeah. Yeah. I wouldn't tell you everything. But yeah, like I said, we'll look forward to, um, I'm gonna start unraveling when, No, this is really fun. When you are ready. You're gonna let us know, uh, even more. And, and Sarah please, you have a seat at the table, uh, anytime you want. No, thank you so much. Yeah, I know you're local, so that's good. Um, give us a quick overview on what's happening in the world of Vayner three, which is of course Vayner X's, um, Web three division. Yes. Well, um, I currently work as a copywriter at Vayner three, and we have a lot of exciting, um, drops actually, and I can speak about it now because it's finally launching. But we just worked on a project with, uh, Budweiser and fifa, so we're coming out with a great NFT that, you know, tracks your, um, FIFA score of your favorite team. So that's fun. Um, Bud Light and the NFL are working on, um, a great, they just came out with it as well. A great N F T. A lot of exciting things, a lot of great companies, which I can't necessarily speak on now. if you're not necessarily, you know, fully interested in, you know, web three, I would say just start to explore. It's, it's not as scary as you think it is. Yeah. I mean, we could certainly have you back to talk about all of that, which we didn't even touch upon. Yeah. I design, uh, I have many other episodes where we spoke about that. I even have an interview, um, with your president. Uh, Uh, so that's, that there we touch upon, we go deep into, into web three, and it's fascinating and I love how Vayner is clearly leading the charge with, you know, the, um, the, just the, the person on the street might have a hard time understanding that these major companies like Budweiser for example mm-hmm. are embracing NFT world and going forth. I saw maybe a month or so ago there was a, um, a mocked up Budweiser can. That was all about, um, uh, um, NFTs and Web three. And you guys, they're a, they're a client of yours? Yeah, they are. So that's, that's one of the clients I work on is a Budweiser. So, And what do you do? Um, so I'm the copywriter, so I work on the social team, just kind of helping both internally and external, um, marketing on, you know, their Twitter, Instagram discord, and figuring out the social plan for how we're gonna launch all these cool, crazy projects. Awesome. I agree. I love it all. Thank you again, Sarah. Thank you. Thank you, Jess, for, uh, coming along for the ride this time and, um, we're gonna do it again. Hidden Nation. Thank you so much for tuning in. hello@joshcarey.com. Would love to hear your thoughts. I'll read them on the air very next time. We're gonna do it again before too long. Thanks for tuning in. Take care. Be well.