00:00:06 Sana: What I think what happens when a person spends most of their early life being told that they are two different or too much to deal with, too hard to deal with. They start to believe the world isn't built for them. This is. This is not suitable for them. And the wild part is most of them are right. Actually, the world wasn't built for them. But that doesn't mean they were built wrong.

00:00:39 Sana: So welcome to the Mindful Living Show. Listeners, I am always here, your host. And today we are slowing down, pausing and slowing down to talk about neurodiversity. And let me tell you listeners, this is not as a label or as any problem to fix, but it's a way of being human, which has its own natural rhythm, its own gifts, and its own story to tell. So if you yeah, I'm talking to you, listener, if you have ever felt out of place in your own life, let me tell you that this one's for you. And introducing my guest, Thomas Wilson. He is a storyteller, advocate, mentor, and peer specialist who has spent more than three decades turning his own lived experience with neurodiversity into a path for others to find their voice. And let me tell you all listeners, Thomas has been such an incredible guest for almost all of our podcasts, so go do check out his episodes on our other shows under the Healthy Mind Network. But Thomas, welcome to the Mindful Living. As always, it's really good to have you.

00:01:51 Thomas Wilson: Thank you for having me on. And thank you for your kind words.

00:01:57 Sana: Oh, brilliant. Brilliant. Thomas, if I recollect, I mean, we have talked about AI, we have talked about your journey in there on some of our shows, but, for today's episode, let's focus on neurodiversity because I believe most of us, when we hear this word, we always treat it as, you know, a category, you know, inclusivity, like a checklist, um, maybe a box on a form. But, um, the way I have, I've realized, after I got to know your journey, I'm very sure a few of our listeners would know, the way you have lived it, it sounds very different from that. Um, I would love to ask from you that what exactly neurodiversity mean when you are the one living inside it.

00:02:47 Thomas Wilson: I love that question. So, I mean, I, I think it changes for a person to person. And, and you're right, and you mentioned this at the beginning of the podcast, the world really isn't built for a lot of us. Doesn't mean it can't be or it won't be. Um, I actually am a big believer that the big mental health and or diverse acceptance push we're in is changing a lot of things. but for me in particular, it was a lot of isolation. It was a lot of judgment and mockery and a lack of a willingness to work with me. And as I've learned to accept it, especially as I live it now, one of the hard things I had to learn was fundamentally, um, there's a difference between living your neurodiversity for other people and living it for yourself. And I think for a long time, I allowed myself to be confined in other people's perspectives. And I definitely spent a lot of time believing that I was those things. I was those angry comments, I was those judgments. I was that hostility. And it taught me for a long time to carry that and believe that's all who I was. But when I really started to challenge myself and my idea of who and what I wanted to be and, and push myself to. And I want to emphasize here, I know a lot of people use the phrase just do or just move on. And it's not that simple. Life is not as simple as just doing. And success, especially in neurodiversity, is not just built off of making things happen. Um, but when I started really owning that and identifying who I wanted to be and letting go of that trauma, um, that understanding shifted to really seeing the beauty of it for me when I live it, it's getting to be creative and passionate and getting to pursue my, my love of things, whether it's reading a book series in a short period of time, or creating a program, or getting to talk with kiddos and help make them laugh.

00:05:13 Sana: Mhm.

00:05:14 Thomas Wilson: But I also noticed there's a lot of superpowers to it. Um, there's so much evidence out there to suggest that those of us with neurodiversity and mental health, many other things. We are warriors. We are able to create things the world has never seen before. We're able to create programs and businesses that cause real change. We cause governmental change. And so at its core, yes, it's a complex, messy thing that goes beyond some of the, the very common, um, phrases people like to throw out there. But I think at its core, it, it is meant to be that way. And the more we accept these things as people, the more we can create a change and a world that is actually built for people like us.

00:06:09 Sana: MM. And I, I really, find that in a very positive light because often and this is not something that, you know, here it is getting romanticized or, um, just only thrown without any facts in there. And there was a very interesting conversation. You know, because you reminded me of that. Thomas. So I have to share that, there was an interesting conversation, which I did, I guess a few weeks back or maybe a month, months back on, um, this blend with another guest where we were talking about, um, how exactly does the future of AI look like in terms of how, who is going to, uh, take that advantage? Who is going to kind of, be that different one who knows how to leverage this tool. And he mentioned something, uh, which that's why I recall it that people I mean, neurodiversity is going to create that difference, because we all can have access to the same tool, but the ones with a very unique set of, of creative capabilities and a different kind of approach, they are going to definitely make a huge difference in their, something like between the I slob that we are seeing right now and true, authentic, genuine, uh, output from using AI.

00:07:38 Thomas Wilson: Oh, I absolutely agree. Um, there is, I think, and I think this is an important distinction. I, I've been, I think I've been on many casts talking about AI. Um, but I, I'm actually a believer and I think this is part of the, the fear that a lot of people have, um, a lot of people want to remove AI from humanity and we want to kind of stream, quote unquote, streamline things by reducing workloads or we, you know, there's a lot of discussion around how it's going to impact jobs. But I can honestly tell you, with the people I work with, some of the most talented, capable and highly proficient people with AI are actually the neurodiverse use that I youth that I work with. They have this understanding and fundamental fundamental shift of how to make this program work. And you're right, there is AI slop out there. I'm actually not a big fan of that term because I feel like it kind of gets someone brought to a very negative space. Um, but I think through, I think what a lot of people are missing is for every thousand people who are, um, creating something very lazy with AI, there are also hundreds of people who are creating Videos that must take an intense amount of work. They're creating programs and apps and things that are fundamentally going to help our planet. And I think that's the difference. And I think one of the big things in there is intentionality and passion. And I fundamentally believe that the neurodiverse community, I know there's a ton of conversation about people losing their jobs and all kinds of things, but fundamentally, one of the biggest group of change makers and one of the biggest groups of people who fundamentally shape the status quo are the neurodiverse communities, the mental health communities and other communities like that. And I don't think that work is work or programs are going to be replaced. I think they're going to be changed. But I think that's because our community is going to shift this program into a new reality.

00:10:10 Sana: Yeah, I love that. I love her films. Um, moving on to something which I really find, uh, kind of heartbreaking. Um, you mentioned earlier, you have, you have shared that, you know, some of the people who were meant to support you, called you things like a monster or a mistake. And I don't want to rush past that. But then I'm also curious, Thomas, at the same time about what was happening underneath of all, all of that, because I mean, what, what do you think was, was really going on with the adults and the systems around you that made them respond to a child that way?

00:10:50 Thomas Wilson: So I'm going to be honest, I have a lot more perspective on that than I used to in my life. And I think especially as I've taken on more and more roles as an educator and, and somebody who has really grown his business around kind of fighting that. I think a key part of it was burnout. I like I'm not here to say burnout justifies being awful to a kid to go to, doesn't it? Fundamentally does not. Um, but I think what I've realized is as much as we have not built our world, not even just our societies, but our world around specific groups of people, we have fundamentally not built our world to take care of caretakers. Um, yes, there are programs out there and there are organizations who help, but I think if you really pay attention to the realities and the demands of educational workers or caretakers or program facilitators, so often just like how families have a hard time finding resources. Many caretakers have a hard time caring for ourselves and have a hard time finding community that cares for us. And I think the other thing that for me, especially when I was growing up, there was a very different mindset on mental health and there was a very different mindset on the idea of work. Like I run across people all the time who honestly sound very nice and seem very kind, but they're very much caught up in like the mentality of softness, like people having things different or workers demanding certain kinds of rests, like mental health days. I hear the term soft a lot. And I think the danger of that term is it allows some very pervasive theories and thoughts that are really not rooted in reality. And I know so many people who want things to be better, but in very particular ways. And I say this a lot, but I think what we have kind of done as a long for much of human history as an is enabled, abusive, manipulative, exploitative mindsets towards so many people that that became the fundamental norm. And even the best people trying to create change in those systems end up getting caught in it in one way or another, and unfortunately became part of that perpetuation of that mentality. And, and if somebody is hearing this and going, that wasn't me, I encourage you to really think about how people treated you when you were a kid versus when you hit that magic number of eighteen, or how people yelled at you versus teaching you how you learned or how you thought. Because I think it's very accurate. And I think we as a society kind of just got so caught up in that that it just became okay. And instead of thriving, so many people were on fumes and were just surviving. And the unfortunate part of just surviving is that is not a sustainable method. You have to get to thriving. And I think for me, the people that I encountered, that was their reality. They were caught up in those very toxic things, and then they were not supported. And after years of that, it created a real hostility towards anything that was different.

00:14:48 Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah.

00:14:50 Sana: I'm really glad that you shared that, Thomas, and you put this perspective forth because I think a lot of neurodivergent kids, um, and I'm, I cannot say exactly because, uh, you know, I try to always speak from my own lived experiences, but after hearing what I think that, this is something which is carried quietly into adulthood, without ever, um, sometimes naming it. I mean, they grow up, they get jobs, they, they look like, they are, they're doing fine on the outside. But, but in still, still inside them, there's always this, um, uh, very feeble or small voice repeating, what someone said to them when they were eight years old? And of course, you know, we are in different times. Um, there are a lot of active, uh, you know, uh, which are part of the systems which are also working, uh, aside alongside with the systems. They're active, uh, conversations, people who maybe, they are, uh, successful, in their traditionally, conventionally or unconventionally in their industries, in their sectors, many of them, they are actually opening on this and actively sharing about this. And yeah, that's definitely helpful and hopeful and puts things into perspective. But I, I still believe that, um, more and more, um, conversations about how this is not anything like a flaw or, uh, a broken thing to be fixed. I think that should be definitely focused on.

00:16:39 Thomas Wilson: Oh, absolutely.

00:16:41 Sana: Go ahead, go ahead. Yeah.

00:16:43 Speaker 4: Oh, I was just gonna say, um, yeah. And I think so I think that's.

00:16:48 Thomas Wilson: Part of the and I think it's, oh my gosh, I could talk about this for ages and ages, but I think that's part of the symptom of the medical model on society. Um, for those that don't know, the medical model is a term in healthcare, kind of designed to, um, treat people like cure the illness. And then there's the societal model. And the two are often at odds with the societal model being, you know, society pushing for things like more equity in the workplace, uh, tying their terms, things like that, and also more acceptance. And I think part of the issue with the medical model, and I think this is true around a lot of the world, I can't say for certain I am I live definitely live within my bubble. Um, but the medical model has trained so many people to think as curing someone versus supporting them and helping them to learn to live their life through like live their life with their diagnosis. And I think that medical model and I work in healthcare, I respect the medical model, but it is often very far behind what the societal model is and what people actually want. And so I think when we are programmed to think through people, through that I have to cure something or I have to read something from someone to help them live, that can become very pervasive really quickly. And I think that's definitely been passed down for many of us.

00:18:33 Speaker 3: Mhm. Yeah. Yeah.

00:18:36 Sana: And I believe this one is very much central, in fact, to what, you know, um, I hope, uh, to achieve through this podcast, Thomas, by having these conversations is, you know, when it comes to neurodiversity, it's not just only, um, a childhood story, but it shows up, you know, in the way someone is moving through a very ordinary day, um, in extraordinary ways and simple ways. So, uh, you know, the way, um, they manage noise or eye contact, um, in public place or maybe, you know, uh, a conversation that's gone for too long. Um, what, what does mindful living actually look for you now on an ordinary day? Thomas.

00:19:29 Thomas Wilson: Um, so the simple answer for me is to live my life as the person I want to be and the person my community needs to be because I, I fully realize that I am at a point in my life where my life is not just, it's just not just my own. It is part of and is woven into many different communities. And I'm not saying that I'm living for other people so much as I'm being accountable for my community and making sure that I do not go down a path that many people have throughout humanity. Um, but I think the more complex answer is it's understanding where I'm at emotionally. It's being willing to call myself out on what my flaws are and to work on them. It's focus and the follow through to not just show up to something, but to show up ready, prepared and kind. And I think in that it is also the dedication to not reverting to a point, no matter how tempting it might be and how justifying, especially when I have those dark thoughts of, oh, the fall is going to happen, or, um, I'm gonna say something and it's going to make a bunch of people mad or I'm gonna get canceled. I know it's going to happen. It's fighting those and not giving in to them so that I revert into that. And I think for me, it's just to summarize it. It's also understanding that we don't need to be perfect to be good, and we don't need to be, we don't need to be the person the world always wants to see in order to be worthwhile. Like we're all flawed. I am definitely flawed, but to be the person I need to be is very important.

00:21:36 Speaker 3: It is, it is. And this is something I sometimes.

00:21:39 Sana: Really wonder, uh, Thomas.

00:21:41 Speaker 3: That.

00:21:42 Sana: How exactly do I conform, uh, to all the standards set? Do I actually need or do I don't? And if not, then, uh, whether I'm going to achieve my set objectives. And then sometimes I feel like, oh, these were not even my own objectives or my goals. It was just handed over to me. So how does that make sense?

00:22:07 Thomas Wilson: Yeah.

00:22:08 Sana: Yeah.

00:22:09 Speaker 5: I was just gonna say, just to add to that, um, really quickly, I think there's, especially when you have a presence.

00:22:17 Thomas Wilson: Online, I can fully appreciate that. Um.

00:22:22 Speaker 5: This, this digital world.

00:22:23 Thomas Wilson: Has so many expectations and it can be really hard to try to honor that and still move forward in life.

00:22:31 Sana: Mhm. I agree. I agree. Um, and before we wrap up, I think this is one of probably one of my most favorite, you know, question because you have spoken about how stories saved you, um, poetry, novels, music, um, now Dungeons and Dragons mentoring space. Uh, it's, it's a beautiful thing, honestly, because but but then I, um, don't think people always understand why story does what it does for a neurodivergent mind. So from your experiences, what, what is it about a story that creates room for someone to finally breathe?

00:23:20 Speaker 6: Oh my gosh, I could see.

00:23:21 Speaker 5: So much to this. Uh, I could talk for twenty four hours on this. Um.

00:23:27 Thomas Wilson: I'm gonna say I, I think the, I think the biggest thing is really representation. Um, I think representation and that connection, um, I know a lot of us with neurodiversity, we have a really hard time creating mental images, but there's something about a really well-told story and there's something about identifying with a hero, a or heroine. Um, an animal in a story, whatever it is. And then just feeling like you're less alone. And I think for a lot of us, especially as kids, when we read stories, we're often given some really great examples of like kiddos that we want to be like. But I think it really is also as well. Books can just be kinder. They have a better, like more clear cut example of good and evil. There's typically like there's the hero's journey where even if someone's isolated, typically by the end of a book, they're, they're not. And I think especially, especially and this is something that is not always talked about, I think for a lot of kids and a lot of kids in particular who are being bullied, um, stories that involve bullies, they Typically get their comeuppance. Like bullies typically have something negative happen to them, or they're stopped or their behavior changes. And I think for so many of us when we're growing up, that's like our first real understanding that those things can happen and that good and evil can exist and all of these things. And I think that's really powerful, not just for a kid, but for someone who's struggling to share their voice and to really identify with who and what they want to be.

00:25:34 Sana: Well, and I think, what, what you shared, um, Thomas, I think it's, it's something that, you know, um, it's like being seen through a character, um, which is sometimes especially, you know, when it comes to that emotional safety, other than being seen as yourself. And I think that's true for so many of us out there. Um, irrespective of, you know, neurodivergent or not. Um, and it's not just that only just for the sake of, uh, showing a neurodivergent, hero or, you know, a heroine or, a character having that life. I mean, that kind of, you know, something would look like a virtuous virtue signaling. But the true conviction in their how does exactly it look like in a story that gives you a side door into your own life? Um, I think, uh, sometimes, you know, often that's when that healing starts.

00:26:44 Thomas Wilson: I completely agree.

00:26:48 Sana: Super, super. Uh, so Thomas, before we, uh, wrap up, um, For people, uh, you know, to be able to find you, follow your work, uh, hear more of your stories. Uh, where would you like them to go?

00:27:05 Thomas Wilson: Definitely. Um, so I, I always tell people you are welcome to email me at. And I always joke that I never realized how, how hard this was to hear until I started saying it out loud. Um, my email is n d t r p g at gmail dot com. And for the people going like, what? What did he just say? Um.

00:27:33 Speaker 5: I'm gonna make sure it's provided in the comments.

00:27:37 Thomas Wilson: Um, I was gifted this email. I love this email, but my goodness, are like ninety percent of those letters so similar to one another. Um, I also have my website, which is r n h creative advocacy and storytelling dot net. I always joke as well. Never realized how like cumbersome of a website name that was, but it's it's a good one. I'm actually working on tailoring that site a little bit and updating it this summer. Um, and then you can also find me on my Linktree. I'll make sure that's shared as well. Yeah. Um, and I'm trying to think, is there anything else? Oh yes. My LinkedIn, you can find me. Thomas Rodey Wilson. Um, that special middle name there is very important to me and has followed me throughout a lot of my work. Um, with that, you can always ask me questions, you can reach out. I fully realize some people even just talking to a stranger can be a lot, but I am not someone who just says I love questions. I genuinely love them. Um, so please feel free to reach out.

00:28:43 Sana: Super interesting, interesting. And, uh, let's, let's help your listeners figure that out easier. So yes, I have all the links mentioned in the show notes. So do reach out, connect with Thomas you can connect with on LinkedIn or send him an email or check out his website. and, to whoever's listening right now. maybe you are sitting in a car and listening to this podcast or maybe with headphones on a walk or run or, you know, just lying still in a quiet room or doing some of your other work while listening to this. If something what Thomas shared, whether it's him connecting with stories or characters or about his, his, um, journey in there and about his experiences and about neurodiversity, whatever connected with you do sit with it for a minute before you move on to the next thing. There is no rush and there never was. So this was the Mindful Living show. I am Sana. Take care of yourself Thank you so much.