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This is episode 191, and you're listening
to the Conservation and Science podcast,

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where we take a deep dive

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into topics of ecology,
conservation, and human wildlife interactions.

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I'm Tommy Serafinski

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and I always try my best to bring you diverse
perspectives on every story that I cover.

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And today
we are going back to the topic of rewilding.

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There were no episodes
specifically dedicated to rewilding,

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but now it's a good opportunity
because there is a new book out titled

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Great Misconceptions
Rewilding Myths and Misunderstandings.

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Yes, please.

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Yes, please.

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And this is not like a work of one author.

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This is actually a collection of 12 essays.

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And if you look at the authors,
this is really who is who in the rewilding

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or at least in nature, in nature
communication and nature writing.

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And I am pleased to report
that many of the authors were already guest

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on this podcast Eoghan Daltun,
Steve Carver, Ian Carter, Alexander Lees.

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There are also many others,

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who I'm sure you know, Hugh Webster,
Mark Avery, and the list goes on and on.

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But today our guest is, yes,
one of the contributing authors,

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but also an editor and a moving force
behind that book, Ian Parsons.

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And in this episode, we are going to talk,
obviously, about the book.

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What was the motivation to write a book,
and what was the process

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of authors selections
and whether any surprises and so on and so on.

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But then we talk about three main topics

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related to rewilding reintroductions
the good, the bad, the ugly.

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Community engagement.

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How to do proper community engagement.

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Do's and don'ts of community engagement
and tree planting versus tree regeneration.

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So obviously there are chapters in that book
related to these three, subjects.

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But mind you, this is just our conversation,
my conversation with Ian.

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So this is not necessarily reflecting
what's written in the book.

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And to find out what's written in the book
on those topics and nine more,

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you will need to buy the book.

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And speaking about buying the book,

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of course, there is a link to buy the book
in the description of this show,

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or the YouTube video descriptions,
or some people call the show notes.

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Regardless whether you're listening or watching
this podcast or video of this podcast,

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you can get there
and you will find the link to buy that book.

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And why?

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By buying that book, you
not only get yourself a great book,

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but you will also support my work here
on this podcast because from each sale

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I will get a teensy commission
that obviously not gonna affect your price.

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So get in there and buy the book.

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And if you don't want to buy a book
for whatever reason,

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or maybe you already have the book
but still want to support my work,

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you can buy me a coffee, the link to buy me
a coffee.com/dummies outdoors is also in a safe

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place in the description of this show, so
you can support me in either way if you want.

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And my, big thank you goes to you regardless
whether you buy the book or buy me a coffee.

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That's always great, right?

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So I think I'm not going to drive
this introduction any longer.

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You know what to expect in this podcast.

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So, without any further ado,

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ladies and gentlemen, Ian Parsons
and great misconceptions about rewilding.

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And. Global.

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Capital.

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Oh. Ian, welcome to the show.

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Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure.

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And we are going to talk about a book
that I quite enjoyed.

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It is a collection of articles or essays

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that are addressing misconceptions
and the rewilding.

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We spoke about rewilding
many times on this podcast.

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It was always like, oh, you know, like people

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saying this about rewilding
or that about rewilding.

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And there it is.

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There is a book that, you know,
takes a systematic approach to all that.

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Tell me, what was your motivation?

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What inspired you to decide
to put together a book like that?

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It was, it's born of frustration,
really, hearing like, you know,

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don't have all these different perspectives
and often, very wrong perspectives.

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I, I started off, I wrote myself a little
paragraph saying along the lines of how

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rewilding can be used to generate enthusiasm,
but it can also be used to engender fear.

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It can be used to celebrate things,
but also to,

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blame things.

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And I came up with the phrase rewilding is used
to label and label, conservation.

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And just speaking to Chris Baring,
who's one of the chapter contributors,

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we were chatting away and he was frustrated
about what was happening with,

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the area where he was living and working,
and it just went from there.

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And I just thought, I'm
going to try and contact a few other people.

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And everyone I contacted was coming back
saying, this is a great idea.

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And it just went from there.

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And we're going to dive a little bit deeper
into some of those things.

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But overall, now once you see the book
and you know, it's like behind you,

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what is, in your view, the most damaging

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or most dangerous misconception of them all?

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Oh, that's
a very good question. I would say this,

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I wouldn't say there's

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one particular
I just it's just the way the media,

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used the word almost as,

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almost as a tactic to, to to create a reaction
that they want often people use it.

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I see it on the news a lot.

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The word is used and see on all these different
TV programs here on the radio,

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and you can tell they don't really understand,
you know, the context

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they're using the word in.
So they just use it to label everything.

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And I mean it's a difficult one.

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It's a new word.

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It, you know,
they say in the introduction to the book,

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if there's 14 of us that write in the book,
if you put us all in a room together

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and wouldn't let us out
until we came up with an agreed

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definition, we'd still be there,
because it is one of those words.

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It's very hard to define.

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I mean, I say that we're, you know,
we're singing from the same hymn sheet,

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but we're kind of singing different words,
perhaps, even though we're all in harmony

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together, in our general feeling,
it's, you know, there are

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there is an official definition of rewilding
which I find quite interesting,

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quite ironic, because at the end of the day,
rewilding is about,

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humans stepping back
and let nature take control.

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And yet we still want to keep it within
the strict parameters of what that word means.

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I don't think there's one overall misconception
that's problematic, because everybody in the,

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you know, everyone in the book
writes about their own specific,

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misconception or myth or misunderstanding.

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So, I don't know.

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I mean, for me,
I guess it's, it's that feeling that humans

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still have to be in control
and decide the outcomes of what they're doing.

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And we have a we have a very, very strong need
to always be in control, matter what it is.

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And you do see some great examples
of supposed rewilding projects

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where they actually want the outcome
to look like this, rather than allowing

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nature to, to, to decide,
it will not decide just to let it happen.

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You know, there's still oh, actually
we want our woodland. We want to not woodland.

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Have bluebells and oak trees.

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You know, and they try and control it.

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And not that it isn't really
what rewilding should be about.

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It should be about giving, natural processes
the range to, to do what they do.

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Yeah, it's it's a great observation.

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And every time we talk about rewilding,
we need to talk about,

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like,
what their world really means, like you said.

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And it's being said that it's
actually it is no different than word hunting.

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If you take, you know, four hunters

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or ten hunters in the room and it's like,
what is the word hunting?

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There probably have a slightly different
definitions as well, except the word is around

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for so long
that people more instinctively understand.

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And even though their understanding
might be different,

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they're not making a big deal out of that,
because the word is there, and it's that

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sort of like a social expectation
that you know what it means.

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And I think that because word
rewilding is a new word,

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that is a discussion point in itself.

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What does it mean? Indeed?

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I mean, I mean, I was, speaking to, a distant
family relation about this book coming out.

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And now, to be fair to Amy,
he has no interest in conservation of wildlife.

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And he said, oh, isn't that, isn't
that when you bring back dead things?

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And, you know, people do think that
that you're going to be, you know,

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extracting DNA from some amber, tree
sap somewhere and, and recreating these things.

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So there's so many different misconceptions.

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And, you know, sure, reintroductions play a big
part in rewilding, but they don't have to.

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And, you know, we have two chapters
on reintroduction in the book,

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one of which, is about lynx,
and the other one is is sounding

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a, you know, a cautious note that we have to
we shouldn't invariably see

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reintroductions as being, a good thing
or being the be all and end all of rewilding.

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There's a lot more that we can do
before we go down that road.

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And we know, without a doubt, later

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on in our conversation, we're going to dive
a little bit deeper into that specific subject.

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But right now I just want to ask you, like,
you're an editor and contributor to this book,

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how did you go about selecting the author,
or was it,

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you know,
where you were looking on the specific angles,

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or do you did
you wanted like a cover, like a comprehensive,

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you know, a different, different aspects of it
or like what what was the process?

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What was the thinking of selection?

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I wanted to make it as broad as possible
because I think for

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for anything really to catch on and,
and work has to be a broad subject.

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So I looked beyond,
if you like, the traditional rewilding, topics.

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I mean, we, you know,
we've I've got plenty of conservationists and,

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academics that have participated,
but I also wanted to broaden it out into

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more untypical, areas.

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So I made contact with some of these in urban
rewilding, working in London

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with an organization called Rewild My Street
about how we can tweak our

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our own in urban environments
to allow natural processes to happen.

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I had a very chance conversation
with a CEO of a clothing company,

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and he just happened to say something to me
and I said, oh, I quite like that.

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Can I get back to you?

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I might, might ask you to help me with a book.
I'm thinking of.

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And, you know, he's written a chapter on
how is it possible to rewild your business.

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And I think the takings he's done on it is,

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it was fascinating,
you know, how sort of building a business

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up from the ground level
using almost ecological principles,

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and building building natural processes
and the theories behind natural processes

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into how you run a business
was I found a very interesting read.

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And then I, spoke to Natalie Bennett, who used
to be leader of the Green Party in Britain

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and is now one of their peers
in the House of Lords.

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And she jumped at the chance to be able
to write a chapter on rewilding politics.

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And, you know, moving away
from this top down decree, if you like, the way

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our political system is to have more
of a ground up approach in a similar way

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to how ecosystems are actually sort of built
in, in nature.

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And that was really interesting as well.

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And very key for me
was to get a farmer on board,

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because one of the biggest myths,
misconceptions, misunderstandings,

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whatever you want to call it,
is that rewilding is anti farming.

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And as you read through the book, you realize
every chapter where farming is mentioned

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is saying, we don't want to be rewilding prime
agricultural land because it's food producing.

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We don't we don't need to be doing that.
And it's a it's daft.

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The people think that.

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But many people, many farmers
see the word rewilding just as a threat.

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And it can be portrayed as a threat
by people with vested interests.

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I really wanted to get a farmer on board.

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He's written a great chapter.

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And, you know, people will say, well,
if it's farming, it's not rewilding.

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But actually agriculture plays
a massive part in our landscapes,

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both in Britain and in Ireland.

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So if we can build in natural processes
and build in a bit of space

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for nature, for wildlife, it's
going to be a great thing.

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And, you know, Chris Richards, the farmer
who actually turned out, doesn't live

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very far away from me at all.

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I mean, literally, as the crow
flies 5 or 6 miles away from me.

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But I didn't know of him. He didn't know of me.

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And yeah, it's he's got a great big beef farm,

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and it's a beautiful farm,
and he's doing a lot there. And. Yeah.

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So I was important.

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I had a farmer on board because, you
know, farmers do feel worried about this word

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and they shouldn't do they should be a word
that we all embrace absolute.

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And, you know, like, I got to be I got to be,
careful here because like, this is the subject

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that again, we talked a number of times
and I just don't like I just want the people

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leave people here is to read the book
and not just talk about

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everything that is that is in the chapter,
but that is one of the things.

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And so like I said, it
all depends how the word is being used.

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And there there are some good arguments.

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There's
this is never that that simple and so on.

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The people who are writing their pieces, their,
their articles, did you notice anything,

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any contradictions or any points
that you were maybe disagree with?

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Like I picked out like some like,
oh yeah, and that needs to be rewilding

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must be economically, economically viable.

220
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And I guess among other authors,

221
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because some of them were on their podcast,

222
00:14:42,280 --> 00:14:44,120
actually, quite a few were on their podcast
before.

223
00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:47,840
I know that some of them would disagree
with like, oh, it has to be.

224
00:14:47,840 --> 00:14:50,120
But there was like just one point of view.

225
00:14:50,120 --> 00:14:54,120
So what are your thoughts,
I suppose is my question.

226
00:14:54,840 --> 00:14:57,920
This slight disagreements,
many slight tensions, like if you

227
00:14:57,920 --> 00:15:00,600
if you're reading chapters, you go like, well,
what this you know,

228
00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:05,240
how does that work with what the what
the other person said in the other chapter?

229
00:15:05,280 --> 00:15:07,200
Well, firstly, I think it's really healthy

230
00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:11,680
because, you know, things have to be talked
about and debated and discussed.

231
00:15:11,680 --> 00:15:14,160
And, you know,
like I said, we've all got our own

232
00:15:14,160 --> 00:15:18,240
independent, opinions on what rewilding is,
what it should be.

233
00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:24,120
When I was putting the book together,
I everybody knew who else was contributing.

234
00:15:24,120 --> 00:15:24,920
And they need a subject.

235
00:15:24,920 --> 00:15:30,600
They were they were doing, but I kept
I didn't allow them to share the pieces

236
00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:35,160
because I didn't want them to be a homogenized,
book, you know?

237
00:15:35,160 --> 00:15:36,120
Oh, exactly.

238
00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:37,960
Following on, I wanted

239
00:15:37,960 --> 00:15:41,960
I wanted to show that, you know,
rewilding itself can be a huge, diverse thing.

240
00:15:42,360 --> 00:15:46,200
And therefore, I wanted the book
to be independent and diverse about it.

241
00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:51,240
And, you know, for a long time, I was the only
person who had read all of the chapters.

242
00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:56,040
And it's been really interesting being a,
you know, the book's now out and every chapter

243
00:15:56,040 --> 00:15:59,640
contributors got a copy and now they're reading
what other people have written.

244
00:15:59,640 --> 00:16:02,960
And I've had really positive, feedback.

245
00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:04,960
There's a lot of common ground,

246
00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:07,560
you know, you read through it
and there's a lot of repeated common

247
00:16:07,560 --> 00:16:09,720
ground throughout throughout the book.

248
00:16:09,720 --> 00:16:12,280
How, you know,
we all are thinking the same things.

249
00:16:12,280 --> 00:16:14,160
But yeah, they're all, you know,
they're all disagreements.

250
00:16:14,160 --> 00:16:20,600
I mean, Steve Carver's chapter, talking about,
is you know, using the author's phrase

251
00:16:20,600 --> 00:16:25,440
that Britain's too small and overcrowded
in Ireland for the basis of his, his chapter.

252
00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:29,680
You know,
he does say that rewilding isn't applicable to,

253
00:16:29,880 --> 00:16:34,000
urban areas, to farming, to forestry,
anything that's an extractive land use.

254
00:16:34,160 --> 00:16:38,960
But then, you know, a chapter later,
you've got, Sean Moxon of Rewild,

255
00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:43,120
my street talking about how rewilding
should be applied to urban areas.

256
00:16:43,240 --> 00:16:43,920
But that's good.

257
00:16:43,920 --> 00:16:47,920
You know, I wanted this book
to inform people of different,

258
00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:51,600
different aspects,
and I wanted to make them think.

259
00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:55,600
And I think sometimes a book, you know,
for books, a very homogenized book,

260
00:16:55,640 --> 00:16:58,880
it can be picked up and put down,
but you tend to remember where it is.

261
00:16:58,880 --> 00:17:01,480
Oh, hang on a second. And, and that's good.

262
00:17:01,480 --> 00:17:05,600
And it provokes for thought
and it provokes, you know, debate.

263
00:17:05,600 --> 00:17:07,840
And that's what's needed, I think.

264
00:17:07,840 --> 00:17:11,880
I mean, I think we do need to talk about things
and how we can rewire

265
00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:14,360
everything within our lives.

266
00:17:14,360 --> 00:17:18,480
I mean, I say about the most important thing
in my mind, the most important space to rewild

267
00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:23,520
is the one between my ears
because we need to rewild our our mindset.

268
00:17:23,520 --> 00:17:29,560
I mean, he Webster in his chapter talks about
there needs to be attitudinal shifts and we do.

269
00:17:29,600 --> 00:17:35,520
We need to rewild our attitude and think, okay,
how I'm having to do this

270
00:17:35,520 --> 00:17:39,800
in my life, in my line of work,
how can I do it better?

271
00:17:40,200 --> 00:17:43,440
From a from a natural processes point of view?

272
00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:47,800
And, you know, then with some people that say,
well, that's not rewilding, but

273
00:17:48,560 --> 00:17:55,080
we, we humans dominate this planet
so much that if we can rewild our own attitude

274
00:17:55,080 --> 00:17:57,320
and surely it's got to be better
for everything.

275
00:17:57,320 --> 00:18:00,080
Yeah. For sure. And look, I agree with you.

276
00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:05,120
Like you said, that this is healthy
and especially in light of the discussion

277
00:18:05,120 --> 00:18:09,320
that we had on the top of the show,
that, you know, every word, every definition

278
00:18:09,320 --> 00:18:13,320
have different, different tastes,
do it, are different flavors, do it.

279
00:18:13,440 --> 00:18:17,160
And so especially when we dealing with
with a word

280
00:18:17,160 --> 00:18:21,680
and with misconceptions about the word,
I think this is, like you said, healthy

281
00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:25,920
to tease out all those differences
and lay them bare for people to read.

282
00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:28,000
That is like, okay, you know,

283
00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:32,280
because I think to some extent readers
will need to develop their own

284
00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:37,160
definition of rewilding,
their own understanding of rewilding,

285
00:18:37,520 --> 00:18:39,760
while knowing, like,
what are the misconceptions?

286
00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:41,480
Where what what what it isn't.

287
00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:44,680
Ian, where are you?

288
00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:46,280
When you were editing everything,

289
00:18:46,280 --> 00:18:48,480
putting everything together,
and you were the first person

290
00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:51,600
to have everything in front of you,
were there any surprises?

291
00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:56,920
Were there any observations and the surprises
that that you had when you were looking at it?

292
00:18:57,280 --> 00:19:02,040
I was just really pleased to think that how
I mean, some of the contributors are people

293
00:19:02,040 --> 00:19:07,800
that I didn't know until I cheekily
sent them an email asking them to, contribute.

294
00:19:08,520 --> 00:19:13,040
I was just really pleased
how everything came together and how there is,

295
00:19:13,040 --> 00:19:17,400
I think this flow through the book and,
you know, yeah, there's this slight,

296
00:19:17,760 --> 00:19:24,320
slight differences in
how have each person feels about other things,

297
00:19:24,560 --> 00:19:29,240
but the general consensus is there not
and I just yeah, I just I think it works.

298
00:19:29,240 --> 00:19:31,080
And you know, it's like I say I was

299
00:19:31,080 --> 00:19:34,960
I was really pleased to be able to include,
you know, a farmer,

300
00:19:34,960 --> 00:19:38,880
a politician, a business person
and have their perspective into it.

301
00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:40,560
And, you know,

302
00:19:40,560 --> 00:19:44,560
I did wonder how that was going to work,
but I trusted them to just to write it

303
00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:45,720
and give it to me.

304
00:19:45,720 --> 00:19:48,920
And I didn't have to change.
I didn't have to change anything.

305
00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:54,120
I didn't have to go back to anybody and say,
you know, I want this to be more like this.

306
00:19:54,120 --> 00:19:56,320
I, I didn't need to do that.
And that was brilliant.

307
00:19:56,320 --> 00:19:58,880
I was it was, it was a relief.

308
00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:02,160
But also it it made my life much easier.

309
00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:05,000
But it but it just showed that we're all there.

310
00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:08,760
We're all thinking of similar things,
just maybe from slightly different angles.

311
00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:10,320
Yes, yes, for sure.

312
00:20:10,320 --> 00:20:11,640
And folks,

313
00:20:11,640 --> 00:20:13,600
if you're
if you're already interested with the book

314
00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:16,960
and you should, because it's a great book,
the link is in the description of this show.

315
00:20:16,960 --> 00:20:19,880
I just want to throw it in there right now.

316
00:20:19,880 --> 00:20:21,200
So it's going there.

317
00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:22,880
Click the link and buy the book.

318
00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:26,000
It's really worth reading. Ian.

319
00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:28,600
If we had to take that conversation
in one of three ways

320
00:20:28,600 --> 00:20:33,240
now and talk about either
community involvement or species reintroduction

321
00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:37,480
or tree planting versus regeneration,
which one would you pick as the first one?

322
00:20:37,760 --> 00:20:40,880
Well, I would go for the trees because that's
that was my chapter.

323
00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:46,200
And, you know, trees are a, a big part of my,
my life really.

324
00:20:46,200 --> 00:20:50,320
Is your view on this changed in any way
since you, since you wrote the book?

325
00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:52,280
Since the book was published?

326
00:20:52,280 --> 00:20:53,320
I don't think so.

327
00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:55,920
I think I it's something
I've always strongly felt.

328
00:20:55,920 --> 00:20:57,480
I mean, I can remember back to the last,

329
00:20:57,480 --> 00:21:01,480
but not the last election in Britain,
but the one before that in 2019.

330
00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:06,280
And you had the leader of every political party
trying to outdo the next one

331
00:21:06,280 --> 00:21:09,480
by saying how many millions of trees
they were going to plant.

332
00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:13,320
And it
it just seemed to me to be ridiculous because

333
00:21:14,280 --> 00:21:15,480
everyone is against

334
00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:19,720
this misconception has built up
that the best thing we can do is plant trees.

335
00:21:20,040 --> 00:21:24,760
You know, that's rewilding, which it isn't,
because we're planting the trees.

336
00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:26,960
You know, we don't need to plant trees.

337
00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:30,760
We can let nature just go ahead.

338
00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:35,840
And, you know, one of those first conversations
I had with Chris Baring was when,

339
00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:40,800
you know, he was seeing what he was going
through with his local council

340
00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:45,720
that we just basically stripping down scrub,
spraying any regrowth

341
00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:50,080
and then planting trees and in its place
and calling that a rewilding project.

342
00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:53,320
And it's, you know, we shouldn't be doing that.

343
00:21:53,320 --> 00:21:57,960
And then I went to my local shop
and they had a stand up there.

344
00:21:57,960 --> 00:21:58,800
It was, I won't name

345
00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:02,800
the organization, but it's a conservation
organization, a non-government one.

346
00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:04,560
And they were talking about,

347
00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:08,560
they were raising funds for a great big tree
planting rewilding project.

348
00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:11,400
And I said, but that's that's a forestation.

349
00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:12,640
It's not rewilding.

350
00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:17,280
Oh, no, no, no, I mean, you know, to be fair,
the person didn't know me.

351
00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:20,680
I did regret the conversation. I think,

352
00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:24,400
and he was telling me they had to because
there's no way that trees will grow there.

353
00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:28,840
And it's it's kind of I just find that very odd
because you're saying there's no way trees

354
00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:29,400
will grow there.

355
00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:33,400
So the solution is to put trees in the ground
to grow their,

356
00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:36,960
you know, trees don't need us, trees
don't need us.

357
00:22:36,960 --> 00:22:39,000
And and if they wouldn't grow,
they're like, why?

358
00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:42,400
Why are you putting them where they wouldn't
grow? Like, it. Doesn't make sense, does it?

359
00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:47,840
And the the biggest natural process
I think that people always forget is time.

360
00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:50,520
Time is a natural process.

361
00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:55,840
And we seem to well, we are now of the
of the age where we want everything instantly

362
00:22:55,880 --> 00:22:59,880
and we want to, you know, make a click
and have our shopping coming straight away.

363
00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:02,800
Nature doesn't work like that.

364
00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:07,400
And yes, there will be some sites where,
it may take a bit of time for trees to develop,

365
00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:11,760
but allow the natural process of time
and those trees will come.

366
00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:13,520
And we shouldn't be scared of time.

367
00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:16,320
We shouldn't be scared
of allowing that to happen.

368
00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:20,680
We've also built into our mentality
that, you need trees.

369
00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:26,000
If you don't have trees, you won't have carbon,
sequestering, sequestering from the sky,

370
00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:27,680
from the atmosphere.

371
00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:29,560
But all trees are plants.

372
00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:32,160
There's nothing, unique about a tree.

373
00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:34,280
There's no one definition of what a tree is.

374
00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:36,640
In fact, technically,
there's no such thing as a tree.

375
00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:40,320
They're just a massive,
disparate group of plants.

376
00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:44,320
And, you know, allowing scrub, allowing,

377
00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:48,120
you know, basis plants to
develop is still storing carbon.

378
00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:51,160
They're all plants at the end of the day.

379
00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:56,480
And we seem to be this image that a trees
is the one thing we have to have

380
00:23:56,760 --> 00:24:01,680
to, defeat global warming
when reality is the thing we need to defeat.

381
00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:05,160
Global warming is us changing our way of life.

382
00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:06,160
Yeah.

383
00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:06,480
But so.

384
00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:10,920
Yeah, it says grasslands that all
it all absorbs massive amounts of carbon.

385
00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:13,600
So. Yeah. You do. There is this.

386
00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:17,600
I was watching so many news programs
about how various organizations

387
00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:22,160
were launching a rewilding project,
which meant cutting down trees

388
00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:26,400
to make wooden stakes, to
then stake a plastic tube to in a tree in,

389
00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:29,720
And the other thing
that no one ever talks about

390
00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:33,760
is the is the environmental
cost of intensive tree nurseries.

391
00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:38,960
If you go on to, if you look up,
a large scale tree nursery in this half

392
00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:42,960
a dozen in Britain, and then you actually go on
to Google and look from,

393
00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:45,400
you know, the satellite image of the site.

394
00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:47,280
It's not a pretty forest glade.

395
00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:52,200
It's a proper,
intensively run production site with,

396
00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:56,520
you know, there's all sorts of,
you know, of carbon costs going into that.

397
00:24:56,920 --> 00:24:58,320
We don't need to do it.

398
00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:00,160
We just need to control grazing.

399
00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:01,960
Stop grazing will control it.

400
00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:07,440
Stop mowing and streaming
and tying and trees will do their job.

401
00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:13,680
Now, I would like you to for people
who are maybe new to that topic or, you know,

402
00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:18,600
that part kind of, you know, because they say,
well, you know, what do you mean?

403
00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:23,000
Like why it's not better
to have the results quicker and fund them.

404
00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:26,320
And if you you can
you don't have to plant them uniformly.

405
00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:28,840
You can just mimic how you going to plant them.

406
00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:33,680
So if you can give like a basic one
and one why you think

407
00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:38,840
that fundamentally allowing natural
regeneration is way better than planting?

408
00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:43,480
As I said, trees are just plants,
and anyone who does any gardening knows

409
00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:47,680
that certain plants in their garden
do better in certain areas that they garden,

410
00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:50,120
and some plants
just don't grow very well at all.

411
00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:54,800
And the best, for trees is exactly the same.

412
00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:58,800
So I worked in forestry for 20 years,
and when I,

413
00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:03,160
started off, I worked on the very sandy
soils of East Anglia.

414
00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:06,960
And there you couldn't grow
a tree called Sitka spruce for love nor money.

415
00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:10,640
Yet it's probably Britain's
most numerous tree by number.

416
00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:12,840
It's the big forestry crop.

417
00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:16,640
But it wouldn't grow there
and you wouldn't try and grow it there.

418
00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:21,960
So you by by letting nature decide
what it's going to appear.

419
00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:28,200
It's the best tree for that particular spot
we can think we know,

420
00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:29,240
but that's all we're doing.

421
00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:33,360
We're guessing, trees don't exist in isolation.

422
00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:37,560
The the world wide Web, if you like.

423
00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:38,800
Is nothing new.

424
00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:41,760
There's the world
woodland web of fungal mycorrhizal,

425
00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:45,760
under the soils that's connects all the tree
roots.

426
00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:51,080
Trees connect each other up, they take
nutrients, the fungi helps protect them.

427
00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:52,520
It's an amazing thing.

428
00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:55,800
But if you stick a tree bare root
that's already maybe 18

429
00:26:55,800 --> 00:27:00,280
months, two, three years old,
it's never developed that those connections,

430
00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:05,960
whilst the tree that germinates in that soil
is straight away connected into it.

431
00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:09,400
And it's a and it builds up protection.

432
00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:10,840
It's more drought resistant.

433
00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:13,760
A lot of these planting schemes,
if you revisit them after

434
00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:17,160
after a couple of weeks of dry period,
the trees are dying.

435
00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:18,040
They've been drying out.

436
00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:22,240
When they were transported to the site,
they've been literally plonked into the ground

437
00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:27,840
and they've had no chance to connect to the
to the water, to to the fungi.

438
00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:29,120
And they suffer.

439
00:27:29,120 --> 00:27:32,440
And it's it's just not a it's not a very
environmentally friendly way of doing things.

440
00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:36,440
But it's not it doesn't make sense
if you're trying to create a natural woodland,

441
00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:39,760
you shouldn't need to create it
other than fence off the area.

442
00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:44,160
If you're planting
a woodland and planting a woodland, planting

443
00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:46,200
trees is a great thing to do. Don't you know?

444
00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:49,320
Don't get me wrong, tree planting is fantastic.

445
00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:51,720
But it isn't about creating natural woodland.

446
00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:57,720
What you're creating is is a for
is a forestry plantation, if you like.

447
00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:01,160
We always think of afforestation
as referring to conifers,

448
00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:05,080
but afforestation is about us
planting trees to create a woodland.

449
00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:10,280
It doesn't have to be a conifer
tree, can be can be any any species of tree.

450
00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:16,040
These organizations that sort of try and tout
the fact that we need to be planting

451
00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:17,160
trees for rewilding.

452
00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:19,360
I don't like the word afforestation,

453
00:28:19,360 --> 00:28:23,360
and you get them coming up with things
like naturalistic planting.

454
00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:27,080
You mentioned bring one I want a minute ago.

455
00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:29,160
You know, to use Orwellian language.

456
00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:33,720
Naturalistic is a is a brilliant,
big brother Hualien

457
00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:37,920
word, you know, Newspeak
word from the Ministry of Truth.

458
00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:38,640
It's right.

459
00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:43,160
You can tell that something's off
when someone is like it with some of these,

460
00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:47,360
like, making up the word or just, like, using,
like, so, like something's is not right.

461
00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:50,640
You see, like a red flag straight away. Yeah,
yeah, yeah.

462
00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:51,760
But I also to say.

463
00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:55,840
That I've had people say to me, you know,
oh no, it's naturalistic planting.

464
00:28:56,320 --> 00:28:59,360
What does that mean?
I mean, it's just a nonsense word.

465
00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:05,160
No. And it's an excellent point, you know, and,

466
00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:08,560
but it's it's sort of like a
with the reintroduction of species,

467
00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:13,920
which is not something I want to go in there
right now, but but I read the book when,

468
00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:20,040
when the, when those animals,
you take them from one habitat, one place

469
00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:22,320
and you move them in a crate
in some other place

470
00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:25,080
and you cut them loose
and you expect them doing

471
00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:27,480
well there and with trees is the same thing,
right?

472
00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:28,200
Or is like,

473
00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:31,920
you know, you take a human being
and you, you know, from England

474
00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:36,720
and you put them in Finland or in Pakistan
and it's like, yeah, no,

475
00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:39,520
go ahead
and like they're not going to do as well.

476
00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:41,880
Or at least it will take much, much more time.

477
00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:44,160
And they never going to be connected
to the culture.

478
00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:45,000
They never be,

479
00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:49,560
you know, they're, they're, they're gods
and never going to tolerate certain foods.

480
00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:52,240
Exactly.
That's a good analogy. It's a good analogy.

481
00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:55,360
I mean, you know, it's
a it's about acclimatization.

482
00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:57,840
And, you know, the best way for a tree

483
00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:00,880
to be acclimatize to a site
is for it to germinate on that site.

484
00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:07,080
And so we like okay, maybe
I just don't want to assume certain things.

485
00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:13,320
So can you give like another,
you know, like a short version of why

486
00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:18,240
scrubland,
why the weather developing scrub is important.

487
00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:26,880
And maybe then from that can you just go
and explain or maybe give your ideas

488
00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:33,960
how to talk to people
about how to get them, accept the mass.

489
00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:41,040
They're not manicured, you know, mowed lawns
and all that, but they're oh, look at this.

490
00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:45,000
What it is like. Right.
So can you just explain?

491
00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:46,680
Because I think that,

492
00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:50,680
I'm asking like two questions in one
because I think they're kind of connecting.

493
00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:55,680
I mean, scrub is a glorious tangle
with of of mass, really.

494
00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:57,600
It's fantastic.

495
00:30:57,600 --> 00:31:01,080
We're very tidy minded
as a, as a nation in Britain.

496
00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:04,320
I'm certain
you probably are in Ireland as well.

497
00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:08,320
And we need to let go a little bit on
that scrub is nature's tree tubes.

498
00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:13,080
So when we see these tree tubes,
the plastic tree tubes, that's what scrub is.

499
00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:14,880
But it's not made of plastic.

500
00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:15,960
It's natural.

501
00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:19,960
And it's, it's it's
an important stage in the woodlands life.

502
00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:26,440
The we know over certainly where I am in Devon,
if you leave a bit of of grassland to go,

503
00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:30,480
it's going to be brambles
that start coming in brambles and blackthorn,

504
00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:33,320
both of which are very spiny.

505
00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:35,920
And that, that's protecting that.

506
00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:38,040
They're doing that
to protect themselves from browsing.

507
00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:40,000
But because of that,

508
00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:44,400
anything that's germinating within
that tangle of spines is also protected.

509
00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:48,400
And that's where you woodland is born,
and it starts to go through and eventually

510
00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:52,640
the bramble gets shaded out and it loses out
to the, to the woodland coming on.

511
00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:57,160
So scrub is important
because it is, a tree tube.

512
00:31:57,560 --> 00:31:59,200
Effectively, it's nature's tree tube.

513
00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:02,640
It protects plants from browsing

514
00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:07,440
and it stops them being bitten off, stops
any damage, you know, and allows them to grow.

515
00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:09,360
It allows them to get bigger.

516
00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:12,760
So that's that's why scrub so important.

517
00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:15,240
That's also like an important habitat
as well. Right.

518
00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:16,720
For those I mean for.

519
00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:18,720
Seed. For wildlife, it's fantastic.

520
00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:20,960
I used to do a lot of work with dormice.

521
00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:24,720
And you know, you get dormice in very brambles
scrub.

522
00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:27,280
You know,
people always associate dormice with hazel.

523
00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:28,480
They don't need hazel.

524
00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:29,240
It's just that they,

525
00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:34,160
they eat, hazelnuts in a distinctive way,
which allows us to survey for them.

526
00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:37,920
But they don't need Hazel,
and they love interconnect.

527
00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:41,040
They love interconnected arboreal connections,
you know,

528
00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:42,840
they don't like going on the ground to scrubs.

529
00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:46,040
Fantastic form
because they can move around for birds nesting,

530
00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:49,800
you know, I mean, I spend a lot of time
in Extremadura, in central Spain,

531
00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:53,720
and the nightingales in the scrub,
there are just it's just beautiful.

532
00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:56,640
And, you know, if you don't have scrub,
you won't have the nightingales.

533
00:32:56,640 --> 00:33:01,720
They, they, you know,
they like that messy tangle to exist in.

534
00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:05,360
And so many species
do. It's a very, very important habitat.

535
00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:09,640
It also as well as protecting the trees
from browsing, it's creating a microclimate.

536
00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:11,960
It protects them from hard frosts.

537
00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:14,280
It stops the ground drying out around them.

538
00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:17,920
If, if, if I can remember
when we used to have sunny weather,

539
00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:22,880
if we have, hot, dry periods,
those trees that are growing in amongst

540
00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:24,760
the scrub are much better protected.

541
00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:28,120
And they would be
if they're just in a plonked in an open field.

542
00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:32,160
So scrubs are vitally important thing for
not just the trees, but as you rightly said,

543
00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:37,040
as a habitat for so many species,
it can get messy and that can be a problem.

544
00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:41,600
People have this this perception of the
countryside wanting it to be orderly and neat.

545
00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:44,920
And you do hear, councils,

546
00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:48,480
you know, justifying

547
00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:52,400
the actions they've taken with their streamers
and brush cutters and,

548
00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:55,320
herbicides to say,
oh, well, people were thinking

549
00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:58,320
it was a mess and therefore
the council aren't doing anything.

550
00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:00,840
And I accept that is a perception.

551
00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:05,160
But my argument to that would be from the to
the council would be when instead

552
00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:11,640
of spending the money on tidying it up
to meet that their, perception go out there,

553
00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:15,800
spend the money on educating them,
speaking to them, communicating

554
00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:20,640
with your council tax payers
and telling them exactly what you're doing.

555
00:34:21,720 --> 00:34:25,360
You know, when people see scrub
and they see it as a mess,

556
00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:27,600
they're not seeing the wood from the trees.

557
00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:31,600
And ironically, when they go out
and they see a geometric cubed,

558
00:34:31,920 --> 00:34:35,600
brand new forest inside,
they're not seeing that.

559
00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:37,520
They're not they're seeing trees.

560
00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:40,560
I'm thinking they've got a wood
and they haven't, you know, it's

561
00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:42,560
woodlands.

562
00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:44,480
Nature is messy.

563
00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:47,840
And scrub is, is a glorious tangle.

564
00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:52,640
And I have spent so many,
so many hours, so many days of my life

565
00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:55,920
getting ripped to shreds,
trying to trying to walk through scrub

566
00:34:55,920 --> 00:34:58,280
when I was working for the,
you know, as a ranger.

567
00:34:58,280 --> 00:35:03,880
But it as from wildlife point of view,
it's it's a very, very important habitat.

568
00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:08,800
I agree with your point of spending money
on, explaining to people.

569
00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:12,720
Kind of like a changing perceptions, right?

570
00:35:12,720 --> 00:35:16,440
You know, we can we can, we can say,
like educating them because that's what it is.

571
00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:17,960
But then again,

572
00:35:17,960 --> 00:35:22,560
people probably don't like to hear that
they need to be educated on something.

573
00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:26,600
But but that's that's
what it, what it boils down to. So,

574
00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:29,040
probably those guys

575
00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:33,080
need to be careful to not say, there goes
the education program for you, because.

576
00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:36,760
Yeah, yeah, it's
you create that. It's interpretation, isn't it?

577
00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:41,600
I mean, when I was at college
a long time ago now, we had a big section of,

578
00:35:41,720 --> 00:35:45,040
you know, we were doing countryside management,
but a big section of our course

579
00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:49,320
was about interpretation,
about how you can engage with the uses

580
00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:53,520
of the land, with the public in the area
and, and get them on board.

581
00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:57,600
And I don't know,
we seem to have lost that art of,

582
00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:00,960
of interpretation of, of,
of getting messages across without it

583
00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:04,960
sounding as if you are dictating to them
what's going to happen.

584
00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:10,160
You know, and Chris sparing in his chapter
when he's talking about community involvement,

585
00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:13,320
you know,
and the project that started off so well,

586
00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:17,800
how suddenly when that community engagement
was stopped, it turned sour.

587
00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:21,160
And you've got to be very careful
of that. But interpretation,

588
00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:25,480
discussing what you're wanting
and talking to the public

589
00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:30,040
and finding out what they feel and their views
is important because they've got, you know,

590
00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:33,640
the public have got misconceptions
just as anyone else have about things.

591
00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:37,120
And it's about it's
about bringing people on board,

592
00:36:37,120 --> 00:36:41,920
allowing them to and, you know, allowing people
to enjoy the wonder of scrub.

593
00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:43,360
That's what you need to do.

594
00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:45,600
You see, that's that's for sure.

595
00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:50,720
And that,
that is a community involvement element.

596
00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:53,880
We get to that,
we get to community involvement.

597
00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:59,840
But I just want to first get into this species
reintroduction because that is something that,

598
00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:04,320
that I, I recorded even a solo episode
on the species reintroduction,

599
00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:08,840
giving to the listeners
my thoughts on on species reintroduction.

600
00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:13,480
And obviously it's a topic
I thought about a lot and I spoke on their

601
00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:14,720
podcast a lot.

602
00:37:14,720 --> 00:37:19,680
Tell me your view on like
how to how we should determine

603
00:37:20,640 --> 00:37:21,680
whether a species

604
00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:25,920
reintroduction is a good idea
or whether it's a not so good idea.

605
00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:30,400
Nice, easy question to start. And,

606
00:37:30,520 --> 00:37:33,600
it's something that you need to look at
whether,

607
00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:37,600
you know, it needs to be looked at carefully
and there needs to be balance.

608
00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:39,800
It's very easy to make a mistake,

609
00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:42,960
and it could be a mistake
that would have made a repercussions.

610
00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:48,040
As your listeners would know, in Britain
now there are, beavers on many sites,

611
00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:54,280
and the first wild beavers to call them that,
that appeared were not very far away from where

612
00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:59,080
I am now in East Devon, on on a river system
that I grew up enjoying as a kid.

613
00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:01,560
And all of a sudden these beavers appeared.

614
00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:05,640
Now, as it happened,
that's turned out very successfully.

615
00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:11,400
But there was also a very high risk
that they could, have a tapeworm and very nasty

616
00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:15,400
parasite that would be spread to people's dogs
and potentially even to humans.

617
00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:20,240
And because it was all done
unofficially in clandestine,

618
00:38:20,520 --> 00:38:24,280
in a clandestine manner in and in fact,
an illegal manner,

619
00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:28,920
that risk was very, very, was very,
very prevalent in people's minds.

620
00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:36,160
And if those animals had had that tapeworm
and if that tapeworm had killed people's dogs,

621
00:38:36,640 --> 00:38:41,400
maybe made people ill, the damage
that would have done to any future

622
00:38:41,440 --> 00:38:45,040
beaver reintroduction project in this country
would have been what we then did it.

623
00:38:45,040 --> 00:38:48,640
It was complete the end of it, because
that would the media would have gone to town.

624
00:38:48,640 --> 00:38:51,800
These, you know, beavers are killing dogs.
Children are getting ill.

625
00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:54,600
You can imagine it.
You can imagine what the media and I.

626
00:38:54,600 --> 00:38:57,720
And that was a risk that somebody took.

627
00:38:57,720 --> 00:39:00,120
And as it happened, it worked out.

628
00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:02,240
But things have to be done carefully.

629
00:39:02,240 --> 00:39:08,520
And again, it's, about how you involve people
rather than someone

630
00:39:08,520 --> 00:39:13,440
just doing something on their bits of land
because they think their bit of land needs.

631
00:39:13,440 --> 00:39:18,080
This is a much wider picture
because nature doesn't respect boundaries.

632
00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:20,080
You know, we only have to
look what's happening now.

633
00:39:20,080 --> 00:39:23,560
We've got field
fairs and Red wings coming from,

634
00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:27,720
you know, from Scandinavia,
from Russia flying in to feed on berries.

635
00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:29,560
They don't understand boundaries.

636
00:39:29,560 --> 00:39:31,240
So if you're releasing something

637
00:39:31,240 --> 00:39:35,400
on, you know, onto land, unless you can offense
it in, it's going to spread

638
00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:39,360
and that's going to have,
you know, impacts and implications with people.

639
00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:43,360
So you have to really,
things have to be thought about thoroughly.

640
00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:44,280
You know, the,

641
00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:49,360
the chapter, the Ian Carter and Alexander
Lee's right on species reintroductions

642
00:39:49,360 --> 00:39:55,040
advocates reintroductions being a good tool,
but it's a tool that has to be used properly.

643
00:39:55,040 --> 00:39:59,040
And we mustn't see it as being the
the instant go to,

644
00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:03,840
method for rewilding if we can create habitats.

645
00:40:03,840 --> 00:40:09,120
I mean, there's been talk of rewilding,
of reintroducing birds like Dalmatian pelican.

646
00:40:09,520 --> 00:40:14,000
But if we created a network of wetland sites

647
00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:18,120
across Europe, from the Danube,
across the Britain, they will come back.

648
00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:20,280
And, you know, we only have to
look how wetland birds have done

649
00:40:20,280 --> 00:40:22,760
really well in Britain in the last 20 years.

650
00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:26,440
You egrets the different types of herons that,
because of conservation work

651
00:40:26,440 --> 00:40:30,600
getting the habitat right, have been able to
to come back and are now breeding.

652
00:40:30,600 --> 00:40:33,720
We've had purple
herons breeding in the southwest.

653
00:40:33,720 --> 00:40:37,280
You know the
these great egrets are now very common.

654
00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:41,280
I mean, I can remember 30 years ago
the egrets were,

655
00:40:41,720 --> 00:40:45,720
you know, a real rarity,
and now people don't even second look at them

656
00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:47,640
and they've come about naturally

657
00:40:47,640 --> 00:40:51,920
because we've actually given them the space
that they can move into.

658
00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:56,360
And for a lot of species,
that's all they all they need.

659
00:40:56,360 --> 00:40:58,840
Sometimes we like to jump the gun a bit
and help them.

660
00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:00,160
Now, for some species,

661
00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:02,800
that help is needed.

662
00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:08,760
You know, if Hugh Webster in his chapter talks
about is there space for Lynx in Scotland?

663
00:41:09,720 --> 00:41:11,040
Because people don't think there is.

664
00:41:11,040 --> 00:41:15,960
But you know, he he totally dismantles
that theory and shows very clearly that there's

665
00:41:16,080 --> 00:41:20,640
there's plenty of space for Lynx in Scotland,
but Lynx aren't going to get here on their own.

666
00:41:21,240 --> 00:41:23,880
They're going to have to be reintroduced.

667
00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:27,880
And, you know, personally,
I love the idea of seeing,

668
00:41:28,520 --> 00:41:34,280
of knowing this lynx in an area
where I am, if you go to areas in Europe

669
00:41:34,280 --> 00:41:39,240
where there's lynx, you're very, very unlikely
to see one, very unlikely to see one.

670
00:41:39,520 --> 00:41:42,880
But just knowing that you're in that spot is
I know it's a great feeling.

671
00:41:42,880 --> 00:41:44,680
It's a bit of a buzz.

672
00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:46,040
And then, of course, there's the wolf.

673
00:41:46,040 --> 00:41:49,280
And that's the again, people,

674
00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:51,240
when they talk about rewilding this country,

675
00:41:51,240 --> 00:41:53,680
think about we're going to have wolves
running around,

676
00:41:53,680 --> 00:41:56,440
you know, the local play park
and the rest of it,

677
00:41:56,440 --> 00:41:58,400
I mean, it should be pointed out straight away

678
00:41:58,400 --> 00:42:01,440
that Wolf should be in Britain
and they should be in Ireland. It's

679
00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:06,200
only because of humans that they're not there
because they were exterminated by humans.

680
00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:08,400
So they actually do belong here.

681
00:42:08,400 --> 00:42:12,000
I think the reality of it
now, though, is that wolf

682
00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:16,000
reintroduction into Britain
and Ireland isn't going to happen.

683
00:42:16,560 --> 00:42:20,400
No, I don't see it happening in my lifetime.

684
00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:22,400
It'd be great if I'm proved wrong.

685
00:42:22,400 --> 00:42:25,920
But Lynx, I think, you know, should be,
They should be back.

686
00:42:25,920 --> 00:42:28,440
Wolf comes with so much cultural baggage.

687
00:42:28,440 --> 00:42:30,120
Mainly woke, Disney inspired,

688
00:42:30,120 --> 00:42:34,440
but it comes with so much cultural baggage
that I just can't see that getting through.

689
00:42:34,440 --> 00:42:35,400
But we can, you know,

690
00:42:35,400 --> 00:42:39,560
we can show the careful management
and careful reintroduction of lynx could work.

691
00:42:39,560 --> 00:42:43,560
And that might, you know, might make people
think a bit harder about Wolf, I don't know.

692
00:42:43,560 --> 00:42:47,080
Yeah. That wolves are a special in that regard.

693
00:42:47,080 --> 00:42:50,920
You know, like I like every episode
that is about

694
00:42:50,920 --> 00:42:55,600
wolves are doing like great numbers
because people just like flocking on both sides

695
00:42:55,600 --> 00:42:57,600
and listen like, what's this, what's the deal.

696
00:42:57,600 --> 00:42:59,920
And but and I may
I mean, you know, I like I say

697
00:42:59,920 --> 00:43:03,960
I spend a lot of time in central Spain and,
you know, I can remember one,

698
00:43:04,520 --> 00:43:08,760
we been out for a meal and we went, went
to the edge of this little mountain village,

699
00:43:08,760 --> 00:43:12,720
and we just stood there in the pitch
black, listening to wolves howling and

700
00:43:13,880 --> 00:43:16,720
it's just just mind blowing and primal.

701
00:43:16,720 --> 00:43:17,840
Amazing experience.

702
00:43:17,840 --> 00:43:18,320
Yeah.

703
00:43:18,320 --> 00:43:19,160
And, you know,

704
00:43:19,160 --> 00:43:21,440
and then the next day, walking through the area

705
00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:24,920
where we'd heard these wolves howling,
not seeing any sign of wolves,

706
00:43:24,920 --> 00:43:29,520
but just knowing that this was an area
was wolf was just wow, what a feeling.

707
00:43:29,520 --> 00:43:31,160
Yeah. Absolutely.

708
00:43:31,160 --> 00:43:35,240
And, you know, like, this is, I guess,
one of the one of the missing conceptions

709
00:43:35,240 --> 00:43:39,240
that a lot of people think that rewilding
means,

710
00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:43,680
you know, you're going to bring back wolves
or you want to bring wolves back, right?

711
00:43:43,680 --> 00:43:46,800
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I mean, so. Yeah,
I mean, people do they think. Yeah.

712
00:43:46,800 --> 00:43:50,040
Well we're going to have Wolf and Brown Bear
and you know, and, and,

713
00:43:50,040 --> 00:43:53,400
and our children are going to be eaten
and all this nonsense. Yeah.

714
00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:56,720
I always, I always say that it's a werewolf.
They missed this. They.

715
00:43:56,720 --> 00:43:59,760
Yeah, yeah. The species
that different species. Yeah. And they

716
00:44:00,720 --> 00:44:01,320
yeah.

717
00:44:01,320 --> 00:44:02,880
Possibly a subspecies but yeah.

718
00:44:02,880 --> 00:44:05,480
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly.

719
00:44:05,480 --> 00:44:10,480
Ian, tell me one of the things
that is interesting and it's especially from

720
00:44:10,480 --> 00:44:15,480
the perspective of talks about reintroduction
or restoration, like I prefer,

721
00:44:15,720 --> 00:44:19,720
term restoration of links in into Ireland,

722
00:44:20,160 --> 00:44:23,880
which is, by the way, just for the record,
for people getting angry right now

723
00:44:23,880 --> 00:44:27,880
at me, it's not going to happen anytime soon
because we just don't have a habitat.

724
00:44:28,440 --> 00:44:31,440
And Ireland habitat connectivity.

725
00:44:31,440 --> 00:44:35,200
There is there was a research done
on this proper scientific research that there's

726
00:44:35,200 --> 00:44:37,840
there's a lot of work
required for habitat before link.

727
00:44:37,840 --> 00:44:43,280
But one of the issues in Ireland with links
but also with wild boar,

728
00:44:44,240 --> 00:44:48,320
which a substantial portion of people,
you know, in the now

729
00:44:48,520 --> 00:44:52,240
me including like not that I'm in the know
but I'm one of the speak there is

730
00:44:52,240 --> 00:44:57,280
there's absolutely no doubt there were wild
boar in Ireland, but then there is no record.

731
00:44:58,080 --> 00:45:02,840
There is only like cultural record
or names of places or maybe people

732
00:45:02,840 --> 00:45:07,320
who came, you know, that name, the place
after the other place that they knew.

733
00:45:07,320 --> 00:45:11,880
And that doesn't mean that there is like
were links ever in Ireland where they found

734
00:45:11,880 --> 00:45:16,040
one bone somewhere, but then again, they
nobody could be looked for them.

735
00:45:16,040 --> 00:45:16,360
Right?

736
00:45:16,360 --> 00:45:20,880
It's not like they dug up the whole Ireland
that links bone and it just happens.

737
00:45:20,880 --> 00:45:22,400
They found one bone.

738
00:45:22,400 --> 00:45:27,840
What's your views on using historical evidence,
fossils

739
00:45:28,000 --> 00:45:33,160
or, you know, any sort of,
you know, looking for evidence as a.

740
00:45:34,240 --> 00:45:36,360
As a basis for reinforcing a base?

741
00:45:36,360 --> 00:45:36,880
Thank you.

742
00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:41,280
As a basis for reintroduction,
whether it is reintroduction

743
00:45:41,400 --> 00:45:43,400
based
on, you know, taking that animal in a crate

744
00:45:43,400 --> 00:45:46,480
and moving on, or maybe,
you know, reintroduction in it says like,

745
00:45:46,480 --> 00:45:50,280
are we going to work on the habitat,
and etc., etc.

746
00:45:50,280 --> 00:45:53,880
to kind of like encourage
those animals to come back.

747
00:45:53,880 --> 00:45:57,880
I think you got to be very careful
because humans have been manipulating

748
00:45:57,880 --> 00:46:01,880
the landscape
and the species within it for so long.

749
00:46:02,160 --> 00:46:05,600
Go back to trees again
because it's a subject I like.

750
00:46:05,600 --> 00:46:06,520
We talk about English.

751
00:46:06,520 --> 00:46:11,880
Elm and elms were a massive feature
of our landscape, but they're not native.

752
00:46:12,440 --> 00:46:13,400
Me. Yeah.

753
00:46:13,400 --> 00:46:15,640
Which elm is native,
but the English elm and all.

754
00:46:15,640 --> 00:46:19,400
It's all it's different names such as Cambridge
Elm, Huntingdon Elm,

755
00:46:19,400 --> 00:46:22,440
they're all basically Field elm.
And it's from southern Europe.

756
00:46:22,440 --> 00:46:26,440
And they were most likely,
introduced by the Romans.

757
00:46:26,560 --> 00:46:28,560
But people don't realize that

758
00:46:28,560 --> 00:46:33,560
because they were such a part of their life
and therefore they think it should be there.

759
00:46:33,560 --> 00:46:35,480
So we've got to be very careful
how we judge things,

760
00:46:35,480 --> 00:46:39,120
because humans have been moving stuff
around for a very long time,

761
00:46:39,120 --> 00:46:42,640
and historical records are okay,

762
00:46:42,640 --> 00:46:47,240
but that's often
just one person's perception of something.

763
00:46:47,520 --> 00:46:51,520
And I guess you're probably probably
thinking about white storks.

764
00:46:52,280 --> 00:46:54,600
In Britain or one. Yeah. And,

765
00:46:55,960 --> 00:46:56,440
there's been

766
00:46:56,440 --> 00:47:00,520
a white stork introduction project,
should we call it that?

767
00:47:01,080 --> 00:47:02,680
In southern England.

768
00:47:02,680 --> 00:47:06,800
And again, it's a bit superfluous
because white storks, like other wetland birds,

769
00:47:06,800 --> 00:47:11,880
are moving north anyway, and the likelihood is
they would turn up and colonize Britain.

770
00:47:12,120 --> 00:47:16,840
But that that just justifying
the introduction project on the one

771
00:47:17,400 --> 00:47:21,480
a 15th century record of a nest in Edinburgh.

772
00:47:22,120 --> 00:47:26,120
Now, we don't know who who recorded
that record.

773
00:47:27,600 --> 00:47:28,560
We've got no idea.

774
00:47:28,560 --> 00:47:33,280
And and it makes me laugh in a way,
because when I was working for the Forestry

775
00:47:33,280 --> 00:47:37,600
Commission, the British government's
Forestry department, as a ranger,

776
00:47:38,440 --> 00:47:42,480
we would receive letters
telling us what people had seen in the forest.

777
00:47:42,840 --> 00:47:50,640
Now, in 4 or 500 years time, those records
would still exist, and therefore there could be

778
00:47:50,640 --> 00:47:56,760
a podcast in 4 or 500 years time, people
talking about reintroducing Lions, panthers,

779
00:47:57,840 --> 00:47:59,560
Wolverines and even a

780
00:47:59,560 --> 00:48:03,560
Jabberwocky
because that is what I have had recorded,

781
00:48:03,640 --> 00:48:08,320
and sent to me as a letter from people who were
convinced that that is what they can sing.

782
00:48:09,200 --> 00:48:12,400
I was going to ask you,
were there any any Bigfoot or Sasquatch?

783
00:48:12,400 --> 00:48:13,720
No, no.

784
00:48:13,720 --> 00:48:16,800
There was one that they even drew a picture,

785
00:48:16,800 --> 00:48:20,800
and said the only thing they can put it
near to is the Jabberwocky.

786
00:48:20,920 --> 00:48:26,280
Now, that record, I, of course, had to send
a letter back thanking them for their record

787
00:48:26,440 --> 00:48:30,920
we would be placing on file, but
there's no common on that record on that file.

788
00:48:31,080 --> 00:48:35,080
If that file survives for 3 or 400 years,

789
00:48:35,160 --> 00:48:39,000
someone could find that and say,
oh my God, they had this creature.

790
00:48:39,000 --> 00:48:42,440
So you got to be, you know,
and I know that's being a little bit flippant,

791
00:48:42,440 --> 00:48:46,680
but that is a record that is somewhere
in a government filing system.

792
00:48:47,280 --> 00:48:51,960
Likewise with herds of black panthers,
which are actually mechanistic fallow deer.

793
00:48:51,960 --> 00:48:52,680
But again,

794
00:48:54,040 --> 00:48:57,480
you know, that's what people thought they saw
and they've recorded

795
00:48:57,480 --> 00:49:01,560
and we've got no way
of checking the verification of a record

796
00:49:01,560 --> 00:49:05,840
from the 15th century when, by the way,
we still believed in witches.

797
00:49:06,280 --> 00:49:07,000
And that was

798
00:49:07,000 --> 00:49:09,280
there's plenty of records of witches
from that time,

799
00:49:09,280 --> 00:49:12,040
and we don't think that we should reintroduce
them.

800
00:49:12,040 --> 00:49:16,920
So we've got to be very careful
about looking at an isolated historical record

801
00:49:16,920 --> 00:49:21,240
and taking it as hard fact,
because it could just be plain wrong what?

802
00:49:21,240 --> 00:49:23,800
A person could have been drinking
too much mead.

803
00:49:23,800 --> 00:49:26,560
Ian, I'm up for reintroducing witches.

804
00:49:26,560 --> 00:49:29,040
That would be,

805
00:49:29,040 --> 00:49:30,440
Can you imagine the media?

806
00:49:30,440 --> 00:49:33,160
Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, exactly.

807
00:49:33,160 --> 00:49:36,560
Listen, there is a
there's a one thing I gotta ask you about.

808
00:49:36,560 --> 00:49:41,880
And if if I may, that would be probably
just a teensy, teensy criticism,

809
00:49:42,080 --> 00:49:45,120
although it's not evenly criticism
because the book is about something else.

810
00:49:45,120 --> 00:49:46,960
But what I was missing is

811
00:49:48,360 --> 00:49:51,360
and and
again, it's probably out of scope of the book.

812
00:49:51,360 --> 00:49:52,920
That's why it's not there.

813
00:49:52,920 --> 00:49:54,480
But the subject that interests me

814
00:49:54,480 --> 00:49:58,880
is there's the novel ecosystems there,
probably a chapter about the cities

815
00:49:59,240 --> 00:50:04,600
is the closer closest to dealing
with the subject of novel ecosystems. And,

816
00:50:05,720 --> 00:50:09,720
you know, accepting species
that are non-native.

817
00:50:09,760 --> 00:50:14,160
And and this is not really
like a specific question

818
00:50:14,160 --> 00:50:19,280
regarding the book, but more of your, views
and the discussion point on,

819
00:50:19,800 --> 00:50:25,000
you know, to what extent rewilding
is compatible with the view.

820
00:50:25,000 --> 00:50:30,280
Like, okay, we move, we need to move forward
from the point where we are right now

821
00:50:30,880 --> 00:50:36,960
because in fairness, in, you know, if we
if we leave this space and already

822
00:50:37,520 --> 00:50:41,800
within that space and within the vicinity,
we have non-native deer,

823
00:50:41,800 --> 00:50:47,040
non-native trees
and so on, then they are naturalized native.

824
00:50:47,160 --> 00:50:50,880
So that creates that novel ecosystems.

825
00:50:50,880 --> 00:50:52,000
And I'm just going to

826
00:50:53,160 --> 00:50:53,640
prefix

827
00:50:53,640 --> 00:50:57,720
that or caveat that from one of the previous
episodes dedicated to novels.

828
00:50:57,720 --> 00:51:01,840
Ecosystems are
that equally can be dangerous term

829
00:51:01,840 --> 00:51:05,760
because you can destroy a piece of habitat
and then you say like, oh,

830
00:51:05,760 --> 00:51:08,760
it's a novel ecosystem
that's not destroyed at all. Right.

831
00:51:08,760 --> 00:51:12,120
So there is a as was we everything there is a
there is a balance.

832
00:51:12,120 --> 00:51:15,240
But I'm curious your views, how to balance.

833
00:51:15,240 --> 00:51:18,960
Maybe that's a question
like how to balance of like, okay,

834
00:51:18,960 --> 00:51:24,000
we need to work towards restoration
or economies are colonization.

835
00:51:24,240 --> 00:51:25,480
Look what was there.

836
00:51:25,480 --> 00:51:31,320
Allow these processes, you know, control
grazing control, browsing deer, this and that.

837
00:51:31,600 --> 00:51:36,680
And to what extent is like yeah the we truly
which is leaving leaving it off.

838
00:51:36,680 --> 00:51:42,080
And if we have, you know, a parakeets
or whatever what have you, that's fine.

839
00:51:42,080 --> 00:51:47,400
That's a rewilding that creates that novel
ecosystem rather than, you know, Holocene

840
00:51:47,400 --> 00:51:52,640
baseline, which is, which is recommended
on the book or place, the scene baseline,

841
00:51:52,640 --> 00:51:57,720
which is also something that I, you know, heard
and covered on the podcast where you're at.

842
00:51:57,760 --> 00:52:03,040
It's a very difficult one because, again,
we because we've had such an impact on,

843
00:52:03,680 --> 00:52:06,040
our own countries
with historic reintroductions.

844
00:52:06,040 --> 00:52:09,760
I mean, trees in Britain
such as sweet chestnut, the elms,

845
00:52:09,760 --> 00:52:12,400
they're not native,
but they are a massive part of our,

846
00:52:12,400 --> 00:52:15,600
you know, our cultural history
as well as our countryside,

847
00:52:16,680 --> 00:52:17,560
brown rat.

848
00:52:17,560 --> 00:52:22,560
As much as people don't like it,
it's a huge part of our, of our ecosystems.

849
00:52:22,800 --> 00:52:28,080
But it's certainly not native to Britain
or Ireland, so it's a difficult one.

850
00:52:28,080 --> 00:52:33,000
And likewise with drumming,
fallow deer in Britain, vast numbers of them.

851
00:52:33,000 --> 00:52:38,280
And I know, in, in Ireland
you've got lots of sick deer as well,

852
00:52:38,760 --> 00:52:41,560
and they cause plenty of issues.

853
00:52:41,560 --> 00:52:42,960
We can't reset the clock.

854
00:52:42,960 --> 00:52:46,280
We can't go back in Britain.
None of it ever happened.

855
00:52:46,280 --> 00:52:50,040
And, you know, I was in Madrid,

856
00:52:50,040 --> 00:52:54,040
a few years ago now, in one of the Retiro
Gardens, the main park.

857
00:52:54,080 --> 00:52:57,120
And there they have parakeets,
not the same species,

858
00:52:57,120 --> 00:52:59,960
but they have very colorful,
beautiful parakeets.

859
00:52:59,960 --> 00:53:03,840
And to me, I walk through and to me
I'm thinking all that just.

860
00:53:03,840 --> 00:53:06,520
Yeah, that the terms plastic, isn't it.

861
00:53:06,520 --> 00:53:08,160
You know, they're just plastic.

862
00:53:08,160 --> 00:53:12,520
But watching young children
engaging with these beautifully colored birds

863
00:53:12,520 --> 00:53:14,040
and taking great pleasure in it,

864
00:53:15,120 --> 00:53:16,480
made me think of how I

865
00:53:16,480 --> 00:53:20,200
can remember as a child going to a place
called Dawlish, which is in Devon,

866
00:53:20,200 --> 00:53:22,080
and they've got a river
that runs through the town,

867
00:53:22,080 --> 00:53:26,760
and there's mandarin ducks and black swans,
lots of non-native, species.

868
00:53:27,000 --> 00:53:29,040
And how going there with my gran

869
00:53:29,040 --> 00:53:34,160
and being able to feed, feed them bread, my,
you know, engage me with, with,

870
00:53:34,520 --> 00:53:38,520
with what I would think was wildlife
and really made me want to,

871
00:53:38,880 --> 00:53:43,880
to see birds and, and,
you know, have their involvement with them.

872
00:53:43,880 --> 00:53:46,080
So it's very difficult.

873
00:53:46,080 --> 00:53:50,280
I mean, rotary parakeets in London
are everywhere, but they bring joy to people.

874
00:53:50,560 --> 00:53:53,440
There's going to be an ecological impact
that they've brought with them.

875
00:53:53,440 --> 00:53:56,960
Well, that they've that comes with them.
They didn't bring themselves.

876
00:53:56,960 --> 00:54:01,400
We at the end of the day, it's us as humans
that are the reason they're there.

877
00:54:01,840 --> 00:54:05,360
And also if you start talking
about going back to the place, the thing,

878
00:54:05,360 --> 00:54:08,760
sort of thing really, we're humans

879
00:54:08,760 --> 00:54:12,960
meant to be here because we colonized,
you know, we're from Africa.

880
00:54:13,160 --> 00:54:17,440
So how you know, it's so difficult.

881
00:54:17,480 --> 00:54:19,800
It's very slippery very quickly.

882
00:54:19,800 --> 00:54:20,280
Yeah.

883
00:54:20,280 --> 00:54:21,080
It's very easy

884
00:54:21,080 --> 00:54:25,320
to be black and white about a subject
that is impossible to be black and white about.

885
00:54:25,680 --> 00:54:28,920
And, you know, we can't

886
00:54:28,920 --> 00:54:32,600
we're not going to get rid of gray squirrels,
for example, from England.

887
00:54:32,600 --> 00:54:35,640
We're not going to get rid of fallow deer
from England,

888
00:54:35,640 --> 00:54:37,080
but we're going to have to live with them.

889
00:54:37,080 --> 00:54:42,800
And it's how we do that and how we, you know,
how we're able to incorporate

890
00:54:43,000 --> 00:54:45,840
natural ecosystems with non-native species,

891
00:54:45,840 --> 00:54:48,560
but we're never going to be able
to reset the clock.

892
00:54:48,560 --> 00:54:50,680
That is, it's far too late for that.

893
00:54:50,680 --> 00:54:53,240
And probably unhelpful as well.

894
00:54:53,240 --> 00:54:56,800
And we cannot be avoiding this subject
any longer

895
00:54:56,800 --> 00:55:01,320
because it's very important subject
and it's dealt with the book comprehensively.

896
00:55:01,840 --> 00:55:03,640
Local community involvement

897
00:55:04,840 --> 00:55:05,680
absolutely

898
00:55:05,680 --> 00:55:10,040
critical for, well, anything to happen.

899
00:55:10,040 --> 00:55:13,560
But but rewilding projects
is one of those things.

900
00:55:13,560 --> 00:55:17,720
What are the
what are the best ways to involve community.

901
00:55:17,720 --> 00:55:23,480
Well like, you know, do's and don'ts,
community involvement in the rewilding project.

902
00:55:23,640 --> 00:55:29,120
I think the first thing you got to do
is accept that because you've got an idea.

903
00:55:29,680 --> 00:55:33,680
It doesn't mean that everyone's
going to like that idea.

904
00:55:34,120 --> 00:55:39,520
And if you try and then impose that idea
on people without even discussing it with them,

905
00:55:39,840 --> 00:55:42,520
you're just going to create resentment
and you're going to make it very,

906
00:55:42,520 --> 00:55:46,520
very difficult for whatever you're proposing
to be a success.

907
00:55:47,160 --> 00:55:51,400
Communities are, by their very nature,
very varied, and I mean huge differences

908
00:55:51,400 --> 00:55:53,160
in opinions on on everything,

909
00:55:53,160 --> 00:55:57,720
be that how they drink their cups of coffee
to their political views, everyone.

910
00:55:57,720 --> 00:55:58,440
Everyone's different.

911
00:55:58,440 --> 00:56:00,520
We're all independently minded people,

912
00:56:00,520 --> 00:56:03,840
and it's very difficult
sometimes when you think you know

913
00:56:03,840 --> 00:56:06,840
you've got something that's right
and would be very good for an area,

914
00:56:06,840 --> 00:56:10,640
and then you've got people
that are being obstructive to your ideas.

915
00:56:10,640 --> 00:56:11,400
But you

916
00:56:11,400 --> 00:56:13,440
you do need to go out there and speak to them

917
00:56:13,440 --> 00:56:16,440
and listen to people
and try and get them on board.

918
00:56:16,440 --> 00:56:20,440
And the best way of trying to get them on
boards to be involved in from the very start,

919
00:56:20,480 --> 00:56:24,400
you know, say, look, this is what we you know,
the Chris Baring chapter talks

920
00:56:24,400 --> 00:56:28,480
about how they, had a packed out village hall,

921
00:56:29,560 --> 00:56:33,560
you know, loads of people
there, loads of people really, really keen.

922
00:56:33,600 --> 00:56:37,320
And they asked them, everybody
there to come up with their own ideas.

923
00:56:37,320 --> 00:56:42,600
And, it was about an urban area in which people
were living in and how things could be done.

924
00:56:42,600 --> 00:56:43,520
And there was a big map

925
00:56:43,520 --> 00:56:47,520
and people were asked to draw on the map,
put post-it notes on the map.

926
00:56:47,640 --> 00:56:49,560
And I know Chris found

927
00:56:49,560 --> 00:56:53,160
that an extremely rewarding
evening to see what people actually thought

928
00:56:53,160 --> 00:56:57,120
and and the fact that they were broadly
their ideas were in line with his.

929
00:56:57,120 --> 00:57:00,720
And a chap called Jonathan Mock,
he was part of this project.

930
00:57:00,720 --> 00:57:03,240
And then it was all going so well.

931
00:57:03,240 --> 00:57:07,280
And then all of a sudden, the local authority
decided they were going to impose their own

932
00:57:07,280 --> 00:57:12,200
top down view on it and totally alienated
the local community wanted.

933
00:57:12,480 --> 00:57:16,160
And that caused the backlash
against the word rewilding.

934
00:57:16,160 --> 00:57:17,400
Very quickly.

935
00:57:17,400 --> 00:57:18,600
That was excellent chapter.

936
00:57:18,600 --> 00:57:22,200
It was excellent because they
they even didn't call that consultation

937
00:57:23,280 --> 00:57:24,360
because that's another thing.

938
00:57:24,360 --> 00:57:27,280
Like, are you doing consulting,
public consultation on the public engagement.

939
00:57:27,280 --> 00:57:28,960
Don't even call that that way.

940
00:57:28,960 --> 00:57:29,200
No, no.

941
00:57:29,200 --> 00:57:33,840
It's very you've got to be very it's difficult
subject and it and it's time consuming.

942
00:57:34,160 --> 00:57:38,160
But you need to involve people and yeah.

943
00:57:38,320 --> 00:57:40,560
You know, I can remember

944
00:57:40,560 --> 00:57:45,000
when I first started off as a ranger,
you be getting low to school groups out

945
00:57:45,560 --> 00:57:49,680
young young kids coming out into the forest
or going, you know, going to country parks.

946
00:57:50,040 --> 00:57:54,040
You don't seem to get that so much now
because of costs and and,

947
00:57:54,120 --> 00:57:56,280
you know, schools
don't have the budgets to do it,

948
00:57:56,280 --> 00:57:59,640
but you're already losing that connection
by not having that.

949
00:57:59,640 --> 00:58:02,440
And then, you know,
not every child goes on a school trip to a

950
00:58:02,440 --> 00:58:05,280
to a country
park is going to be enamored by what they see.

951
00:58:05,280 --> 00:58:09,280
But it's it's that's where engagement starts,
when the, you know, when when children

952
00:58:09,280 --> 00:58:12,120
when you're when you're a child, it's
the best way of learning anything.

953
00:58:12,120 --> 00:58:15,640
I mean, you try and learn a foreign language,
learn it before you're free

954
00:58:15,640 --> 00:58:19,320
and you'll be fluent and you'll never
forget it. But learning it as an adult,

955
00:58:20,520 --> 00:58:21,600
is difficult.

956
00:58:21,600 --> 00:58:25,000
So getting children on board is key.

957
00:58:25,000 --> 00:58:27,000
But again, that's that's resetting the clock.

958
00:58:27,000 --> 00:58:31,920
And if you like going back in time to do that,
but certainly involving your local community,

959
00:58:31,920 --> 00:58:37,760
local schools, local groups, having open
meetings, trying to discuss with them

960
00:58:38,200 --> 00:58:41,520
what what you want to do
and why you want to do it,

961
00:58:41,520 --> 00:58:46,200
and being totally honest
about why you want to do it as well is key.

962
00:58:46,200 --> 00:58:50,280
It's and, you know,
and when it comes to landowners,

963
00:58:50,280 --> 00:58:52,360
I mean, or in Dalton in his chapter,

964
00:58:52,360 --> 00:58:57,240
the first chapter in the book talks about
you can impose things on landowners.

965
00:58:57,480 --> 00:59:02,600
You have to give them the option, and you also
have to incense and incentivize it as well.

966
00:59:02,880 --> 00:59:06,880
So if you're talking about land use changes
and from farming or,

967
00:59:06,960 --> 00:59:11,440
you know, marginal farming,
those farmers exist purely on subsidy.

968
00:59:11,440 --> 00:59:15,440
In many cases, we'll give them a subsidy
to do something that's better.

969
00:59:15,680 --> 00:59:19,320
You know, don't just expect them to to stop
and have nothing.

970
00:59:19,320 --> 00:59:22,760
You've got to you've got to help people
and you've got to give them the option.

971
00:59:22,760 --> 00:59:26,160
And if they don't want to do it,
you've got to respect that.

972
00:59:26,160 --> 00:59:29,480
Even though it might be hard
for you to accept it.

973
00:59:29,480 --> 00:59:31,960
You know,
you do need to listen to people's opinions.

974
00:59:31,960 --> 00:59:32,320
Yeah.

975
00:59:32,320 --> 00:59:34,600
And, you know, like, even like anyone

976
00:59:34,600 --> 00:59:39,080
who is like in their in their day job,
in the corporate environment or whatever, you

977
00:59:39,440 --> 00:59:43,800
whatever course, some leadership, you go
that any of this is any good,

978
00:59:44,240 --> 00:59:48,880
they're going to tell you
you involve people in making the plan.

979
00:59:49,600 --> 00:59:51,880
And then that's their plan.

980
00:59:51,880 --> 00:59:56,240
They're invested
in, in in doing what they're planned.

981
00:59:56,240 --> 00:59:59,760
And then this is how you
this is how you do those things.

982
00:59:59,760 --> 01:00:04,080
The worst thing you can do as a leader is like,
all right, lads, this is how we doing it.

983
01:00:04,320 --> 01:00:09,640
And then everybody's like, oh, I don't know
what I can do this like whatever with the plan.

984
01:00:09,640 --> 01:00:12,440
And so that's, Yeah, I guess this is again

985
01:00:13,760 --> 01:00:15,360
plays to human psyche.

986
01:00:15,360 --> 01:00:20,400
And, you know, a reoccurring theme
here is like over and over again.

987
01:00:20,400 --> 01:00:26,760
It is it is like squarely social sciences,
like ecology, biology.

988
01:00:27,040 --> 01:00:29,160
That stuff is relatively easy.

989
01:00:29,160 --> 01:00:31,560
Like we yeah, we got this covered.

990
01:00:31,560 --> 01:00:35,200
But the social sciences and the
and the getting people to, you know,

991
01:00:35,200 --> 01:00:39,200
get them on board and like you said,
not alienate them.

992
01:00:39,720 --> 01:00:42,600
Don't be a, you know, asshole to people.

993
01:00:42,600 --> 01:00:46,880
That's a, that's a that's another good advice
for, for a rewilding project.

994
01:00:47,600 --> 01:00:51,600
And in general it's the life advice,
actually not the real Ian.

995
01:00:52,560 --> 01:00:56,560
What would be your answer to the following?

996
01:00:56,840 --> 01:01:01,920
What you heard
surely many times the rewilding is anti rural.

997
01:01:02,720 --> 01:01:04,840
It is fundamentally anti rural.

998
01:01:04,840 --> 01:01:10,080
It's a land abandonment because that's the land
that supports community.

999
01:01:10,320 --> 01:01:13,880
And now it's going to be supporting
something else rewilding.

1000
01:01:13,880 --> 01:01:16,720
Therefore there's no place for community there.

1001
01:01:16,720 --> 01:01:19,440
So it's anti rural.
What would be your answer to that.

1002
01:01:19,440 --> 01:01:22,200
And what my my answer would be to read
the first chapter in the book bio.

1003
01:01:22,200 --> 01:01:27,360
And Dalton, who you took straight away
that you know the his misconception

1004
01:01:27,360 --> 01:01:32,160
is that rewilding is land abandonment
and it isn't any and it shouldn't be.

1005
01:01:32,440 --> 01:01:38,560
And people can get a lot
from having nature back in their lives.

1006
01:01:38,760 --> 01:01:40,960
And it can also generate income.

1007
01:01:40,960 --> 01:01:43,160
It can generate jobs.

1008
01:01:43,160 --> 01:01:48,000
People want, you know,
if I mean, I've never been to Owen's place,

1009
01:01:48,360 --> 01:01:50,640
in southwest Ireland,
but from what I understand,

1010
01:01:50,640 --> 01:01:54,720
he gets loads of visitors
going there to see it, you know, so that

1011
01:01:55,560 --> 01:01:58,680
that generates income from
look for local businesses.

1012
01:01:58,680 --> 01:02:01,200
It's a positive action.

1013
01:02:01,200 --> 01:02:05,520
That's it's a misconception
that's put about to try and frighten people

1014
01:02:05,880 --> 01:02:08,320
that, oh, we're going to rewild this area.

1015
01:02:08,320 --> 01:02:10,640
So therefore
you're all going to have to move away.

1016
01:02:10,640 --> 01:02:14,560
And this is just going to be for wildlife.
That's never going to happen.

1017
01:02:14,560 --> 01:02:18,240
That's you know,
that's that's it's just nonsense.

1018
01:02:18,240 --> 01:02:22,160
It's not rural abandonment.
It's not disrespecting rural communities.

1019
01:02:22,160 --> 01:02:26,360
It's about getting them on board as well
and helping, making, making them a life.

1020
01:02:26,360 --> 01:02:28,880
And giving them a future as well.

1021
01:02:28,880 --> 01:02:33,480
If you look at a lot of marginal hill
farming, it's not generating any money for

1022
01:02:33,680 --> 01:02:35,640
for the farmers, it's a massive struggle.

1023
01:02:35,640 --> 01:02:39,440
They're working horrendous hours
in often horrendous conditions.

1024
01:02:39,440 --> 01:02:42,000
You only have to look at the suicide rates of,

1025
01:02:42,000 --> 01:02:46,440
of, of farmers and the farming community
to realize is big issues there.

1026
01:02:46,960 --> 01:02:49,680
And I things need to change.

1027
01:02:49,680 --> 01:02:54,320
But it's not about alienating them, it's
about involving them and maybe

1028
01:02:54,320 --> 01:02:58,720
changing changing things slightly,
but giving them something positive to grasp

1029
01:02:58,720 --> 01:03:04,760
and providing futures and income for them
and their, you know, and their children because

1030
01:03:05,760 --> 01:03:06,120
a lot,

1031
01:03:06,120 --> 01:03:10,120
a lot of these farms now, not these,
these marginal hill farms

1032
01:03:10,360 --> 01:03:14,040
where, where are they going,
you know, where's the future?

1033
01:03:14,040 --> 01:03:15,520
There's nothing being provided.

1034
01:03:15,520 --> 01:03:19,200
So actually this gives a, an opportunity for,

1035
01:03:19,200 --> 01:03:22,920
for these communities to take on board
something a bit different.

1036
01:03:22,920 --> 01:03:27,040
And yeah, there's going to be, people
that don't like change,

1037
01:03:27,480 --> 01:03:33,000
but actually it could revitalize
the rural economy and really do something,

1038
01:03:33,360 --> 01:03:37,600
do something very, very positive for not just
the economy, but also for people's lives,

1039
01:03:37,840 --> 01:03:40,360
I think. Is it
I it's not it's not rural abandon at all.

1040
01:03:40,360 --> 01:03:42,720
I think it's
a, it can be a very positive thing.

1041
01:03:42,720 --> 01:03:46,800
But again,
it needs to come with community involvement.

1042
01:03:46,800 --> 01:03:48,360
It can't be a top down decision.

1043
01:03:48,360 --> 01:03:52,560
You can't suddenly have Defra
or the Irish equivalent suddenly saying, right,

1044
01:03:52,560 --> 01:03:55,920
we're going to stop paying you for this.
You can't do it anymore.

1045
01:03:55,920 --> 01:03:59,160
I mean, that should
that all that's going to do is cause problems.

1046
01:03:59,160 --> 01:04:03,760
It needs to be something that builds, from the
from the ground upwards effectively.

1047
01:04:03,880 --> 01:04:05,320
Yeah, absolutely.

1048
01:04:05,320 --> 01:04:10,800
And, you know, again, much more on
that subject is in the, in the book itself.

1049
01:04:11,520 --> 01:04:13,520
And folks, once again, reminder you can,

1050
01:04:13,520 --> 01:04:16,320
you can click on a link
in the description of this show.

1051
01:04:16,320 --> 01:04:18,200
Get in there, buy the book.

1052
01:04:18,200 --> 01:04:19,240
That's, that's right.

1053
01:04:19,240 --> 01:04:21,840
That's the book on here as well.

1054
01:04:21,840 --> 01:04:24,720
And and if folks remember,
like when you're going to buy the book

1055
01:04:24,720 --> 01:04:29,080
using the link in the description,
you will support, my work on this show as well.

1056
01:04:29,440 --> 01:04:34,280
Ian, do you think that conservation has failed
and now we need rewilding?

1057
01:04:34,800 --> 01:04:37,680
I wouldn't say it's failed.
I think it's it's always struggled.

1058
01:04:37,680 --> 01:04:44,040
And I think perhaps for a very long time
we focused on postage stamp habitats,

1059
01:04:44,040 --> 01:04:44,720
if you like.

1060
01:04:44,720 --> 01:04:48,400
I mean, when I was at college,
we'd go out to work with the local council

1061
01:04:48,400 --> 01:04:52,440
on the local nature reserve,
and it would be a tiny island of habitat.

1062
01:04:52,440 --> 01:04:54,160
And everything was focused on that.

1063
01:04:54,160 --> 01:04:59,040
And because it was so small,
so much work had to go into just

1064
01:04:59,040 --> 01:05:04,000
maintaining the status quo, not necessarily
improving it, just maintaining it.

1065
01:05:04,320 --> 01:05:06,000
We need to think bigger.

1066
01:05:06,000 --> 01:05:10,240
We need to have, areas of land
that are linked in.

1067
01:05:10,240 --> 01:05:14,880
You were saying about the links in Ireland,
you need that connectivity and that can be done

1068
01:05:14,880 --> 01:05:19,280
using very small areas of land,
and it doesn't have to be static.

1069
01:05:20,080 --> 01:05:24,920
Merritt in his chapter talks
about industrial sites near where he lives in

1070
01:05:24,960 --> 01:05:29,880
the English Midlands and how we need to accept
that change is good and that, yes,

1071
01:05:29,880 --> 01:05:35,240
just because a site this year's very good for
let's go back to Nightingales again,

1072
01:05:35,400 --> 01:05:39,760
it doesn't mean that in 510 years
it will be because that site is developing.

1073
01:05:40,040 --> 01:05:41,520
But if we allow those sites

1074
01:05:41,520 --> 01:05:45,960
to develop a new site to develop,
we've always got that continuation of habitat.

1075
01:05:45,960 --> 01:05:48,720
And they don't have to be big areas
necessarily.

1076
01:05:48,720 --> 01:05:52,480
We need links to, to to bigger areas.

1077
01:05:52,480 --> 01:05:58,080
We need to have smaller sites that that act
as stepping stones for species to move through.

1078
01:05:58,440 --> 01:06:03,240
And if we don't have that, if all we're doing
is going back to the old way of

1079
01:06:03,240 --> 01:06:07,240
of managing our conservation sites
as being completely isolated from one another,

1080
01:06:07,440 --> 01:06:10,120
it will fail ultimately,
because at the end of the day,

1081
01:06:10,120 --> 01:06:11,880
the amount of resources that are having to be

1082
01:06:11,880 --> 01:06:15,200
put into these small sites
just to maintain the status quo,

1083
01:06:15,200 --> 01:06:21,240
if for whatever reason they were designated
as a, as a as a local nature reserve is not,

1084
01:06:21,680 --> 01:06:26,040
you may need to be more holistic
in our approach, and we need to think wider.

1085
01:06:26,200 --> 01:06:28,880
We need to think bigger than just small nature
reserves.

1086
01:06:28,880 --> 01:06:31,680
We need to think about the land around it
and how they connect in.

1087
01:06:31,680 --> 01:06:34,440
And that does mean changing
how we live our lives.

1088
01:06:34,440 --> 01:06:39,040
As I said at the beginning, the most important
space to rewild is the one between our ears.

1089
01:06:39,280 --> 01:06:43,200
And if we can do that
and then look at a bigger perspective of things

1090
01:06:43,200 --> 01:06:48,440
and see the bigger picture, then
we can really do something very, very good.

1091
01:06:48,800 --> 01:06:53,640
But if we if we go back to that time
in the early 90s when I was at college of

1092
01:06:53,640 --> 01:06:57,640
just having these small islands,
which we had to put lots of intense management

1093
01:06:57,640 --> 01:07:02,520
into just to keep it from scrubbing over,
or ironically, we were defeating

1094
01:07:02,520 --> 01:07:07,760
natural processes, by managing these sites
because the sites aren't big enough to allow

1095
01:07:07,920 --> 01:07:12,160
natural processes to, to go to work
that just that, just not big enough.

1096
01:07:12,760 --> 01:07:15,280
So we need to have
this interconnectivity of sites

1097
01:07:15,280 --> 01:07:17,440
that are changing,
that are going to change that,

1098
01:07:17,440 --> 01:07:20,400
you know, for one
period of time will be very good for something,

1099
01:07:20,400 --> 01:07:23,200
and then they'll gradually lose that benefit
for those species.

1100
01:07:23,200 --> 01:07:25,520
But they will develop benefits
for other species.

1101
01:07:25,520 --> 01:07:27,920
But in the meantime,
other sites are coming on as well.

1102
01:07:27,920 --> 01:07:31,920
And if we can do that, and
it's a big challenge, but if we can do that,

1103
01:07:32,160 --> 01:07:36,200
then we can make conservation
a massive success story.

1104
01:07:36,360 --> 01:07:40,240
And if you or when you look into your crystal

1105
01:07:40,240 --> 01:07:47,360
ball and, you know, let's talk about ten, 50,
100 years time or whichever

1106
01:07:47,360 --> 01:07:54,000
timeframe you prefer, what do you see how
the concept of rewilding is going to develop?

1107
01:07:54,000 --> 01:07:58,680
Is it is it going to be mainstream
and no one will be even,

1108
01:07:58,680 --> 01:08:01,800
you know, considering any questions?
What does it mean?

1109
01:08:01,800 --> 01:08:05,920
Or do you think it's always going to be
like a special case next to conservation?

1110
01:08:05,920 --> 01:08:06,360
What do you see?

1111
01:08:06,360 --> 01:08:12,840
Like how do you how do you think, rewilding
will be perceived in the future?

1112
01:08:13,080 --> 01:08:17,080
I mean, Mark Avery in his chapter,
the final chapter looks back from 2048

1113
01:08:17,160 --> 01:08:18,960
at what rewilding achieved.

1114
01:08:18,960 --> 01:08:22,200
And, you know, it's it's a very good chapter.

1115
01:08:22,200 --> 01:08:24,320
Me personally, I,

1116
01:08:25,440 --> 01:08:25,920
I think there's

1117
01:08:25,920 --> 01:08:30,240
two possibilities is one that it
it stays as being a niche subject.

1118
01:08:30,480 --> 01:08:33,400
It's something that's talked about a lot.

1119
01:08:33,400 --> 01:08:37,680
And there'll be a few projects here and there,
but it doesn't really go much further,

1120
01:08:37,920 --> 01:08:38,640
I would hope.

1121
01:08:38,640 --> 01:08:43,840
It's not that I would hope that we broaden
our scope when it comes to rewilding,

1122
01:08:43,840 --> 01:08:48,320
and we look at how we live our lives,
how we farm, how we run our,

1123
01:08:49,160 --> 01:08:53,760
political systems, our communities,
our businesses, our planning departments.

1124
01:08:53,880 --> 01:08:59,920
We look at how we can incorporate,
natural processes into our everyday lives

1125
01:09:00,440 --> 01:09:04,320
and how, yes, we can have some great, you know,
we could have

1126
01:09:04,320 --> 01:09:07,600
upland areas of Britain where there's the space

1127
01:09:07,600 --> 01:09:11,480
and not the agricultural pressure on the land
to actually do so.

1128
01:09:11,480 --> 01:09:12,840
We can have those big areas.

1129
01:09:12,840 --> 01:09:19,880
But for it to to actually really, truly work,
we need to rewild ourselves and our attitude,

1130
01:09:20,320 --> 01:09:25,560
have this attitudinal shift,
have our towns, cities,

1131
01:09:26,400 --> 01:09:30,880
being much more healthier environments
than for not just wildlife, but for us as well,

1132
01:09:30,880 --> 01:09:34,800
because if we get it right for wildlife,
we're going to get it right for ourselves.

1133
01:09:34,800 --> 01:09:39,800
You know, there's been so many studies done
and the benefits that people get from exposure

1134
01:09:39,800 --> 01:09:41,120
to wildlife,

1135
01:09:41,120 --> 01:09:41,600
you know,

1136
01:09:41,600 --> 01:09:45,600
even in hospitals recovering from operations,
if they're looking out the window in their

1137
01:09:45,600 --> 01:09:49,920
seeing greenery, if they're seeing trees,
their recovery rates are much better than those

1138
01:09:50,200 --> 01:09:53,040
then those that are looking out,
seeing industrial units.

1139
01:09:53,040 --> 01:09:56,040
All that research has been done. It's there.

1140
01:09:56,040 --> 01:09:58,560
We just need to build that into our lives.

1141
01:09:58,560 --> 01:10:02,560
And that's I find that very frustrating
that we have all these

1142
01:10:02,720 --> 01:10:06,720
this tremendous research done
and it shows and proves this.

1143
01:10:06,760 --> 01:10:09,840
And then it gets completely ignored
and it just gets put on a shelf somewhere.

1144
01:10:09,840 --> 01:10:13,720
And we've got to be very careful that rewilding
doesn't just get put on a shelf somewhere.

1145
01:10:13,720 --> 01:10:18,360
You know, we need to we need to make sure
that is not a niche subject,

1146
01:10:18,600 --> 01:10:22,280
that it actually is incorporated
into what we're doing.

1147
01:10:22,280 --> 01:10:25,400
And yeah, what there's always going
to be people with different opinions.

1148
01:10:25,400 --> 01:10:29,920
The people that that contribute to the book
won't agree with me on everything that I think

1149
01:10:30,320 --> 01:10:33,320
that's wonderful.
That's brilliant. That's what democracy is.

1150
01:10:33,320 --> 01:10:40,200
We need to broaden rewilding into a mainstream
subject and make sure it's not exclusive.

1151
01:10:41,080 --> 01:10:45,600
Get people to buy into the concept
that rewilding can apply to everything we do.

1152
01:10:45,640 --> 01:10:50,600
We just need to think, okay, in my garden,
what can I do that would actually

1153
01:10:50,600 --> 01:10:55,280
and now allow natural processes to develop,
which would have a benefit to me as well.

1154
01:10:55,560 --> 01:10:58,800
And you know, people doing that
more and more is is dead.

1155
01:10:58,800 --> 01:10:59,680
The traction is there.

1156
01:10:59,680 --> 01:11:03,880
I mean, you look at no no mow May
and you know people really buying

1157
01:11:03,880 --> 01:11:08,040
into that concept and that's, that's
having a great boost for insects.

1158
01:11:08,040 --> 01:11:11,880
And in urban environments we can work on that.
We can develop it.

1159
01:11:11,880 --> 01:11:17,000
It's it's going to be it's
going to take a change in mindset and people

1160
01:11:17,040 --> 01:11:21,640
going to have to be brave and be prepared to
yeah, let's move forward and let's do it.

1161
01:11:21,640 --> 01:11:23,800
But if we try and keep it as a niche subject,

1162
01:11:23,800 --> 01:11:27,120
then it will eventually just end up on
in a reference book on the shelf.

1163
01:11:27,120 --> 01:11:30,040
And that's we don't want that to happen, folks.

1164
01:11:30,040 --> 01:11:34,200
Great misconceptions,
rewilding myths and misunderstanding.

1165
01:11:34,600 --> 01:11:36,600
Edited by Ian Parsons.

1166
01:11:36,600 --> 01:11:38,720
Ian, thank you so much for your time.

1167
01:11:38,720 --> 01:11:39,680
Thank you very much.

1168
01:11:39,680 --> 01:11:40,120
Enjoyed it.

1169
01:11:40,120 --> 01:11:44,120
And folks,
if you're interested in how to make sure that

1170
01:11:44,200 --> 01:11:49,040
scientific evidence gets into,
environmental policymaking and influence that,

1171
01:11:49,640 --> 01:11:53,160
you need to listen
to the next episode of this podcast.

1172
01:11:53,160 --> 01:11:53,960
Thank you so much.