World Collide podcast features interviews with people who moved abroad

>> Viktoria: Hey, and welcome to a new episode of World'Collide the podcast where I talk to people who moved abroad. And I'm your host, Victoria. So welcome to this week's episode. This is also, the final episode of 2024. I mean, it's crazy. The holidays are just around the corner. Just a few more days. That's why I chose Derek's episode. It's about moving to Denmark and we talk a lot about Hyge. I pronounce it so well. so we talk about huge and Christmas season in Denmark in the beginning of this episode. And that's why I thought it's a good fit. And all other things, Denmark as well. So I think, he gives a really good insight about this. And also, I wanna mention Derek. You might know him really well from the expat community on Instagram. his account is right. I gotta look it up on Instagram. He's always the first one that pops up on my Instagram, but now I don't find him. Wait, where is he? Here. Rope trotting. Yeah, check out his Instagram rope trotting. I make a note on the show notes as well. Okay. All right. I don't want to take away too much. Here it is. Here's Derek.

Victoria Night speaks with Derek who lives in Copenhagen, Denmark

My guest today is Derek. Hey, how are you?

>> Derek: Good. Thanks for having me.

>> Viktoria: Yeah, no, I'm thrilled that you're here. you are kind of, at least to me you are so well known in the expat community, at least on Instagram. So where are you right now?

>> Derek: Sure. Yeah. I, currently live in Copenhagen, Denmark. I've been here for just about seven and a half years.

>> Viktoria: Oh, it's a long timee almost. I mean, it's almost like it's a third of a decade.

>> Derek: I knowaz I think sometimes like. Oh, yeah, it's like for some reason like 10 years seems like a very long time. So inces closer to that. I'm always thinking like, oh, boy. Yeah, this is really happeny. Been here. I have been here a long time, you know.

>> Viktoria: Why did you decide to move to Denmark?

>> Derek: Yeah, so, well, the reason that I decided to was just sort of saying yes to adventure, saying yes to an opportunity. But really the credit is to my now husband. it really came about because of his job. At the time he had been working for actually the same company he works for now and was asked to come over to Copenhagen for a two week business trip.

>> Viktoria: oh, okay.

>> Derek: And that was, almost eight years ago. So, it's been going well. I guess.

>> Viktoria: o. okay. So your husband is also American, correct?

>> Derek: Yes. So we met in Philadelphia, about, two years before he was asked to come to, that business trip. And it was in the month of November, so it was actually just after the 2016 presidential election in the U.S. and it seemed like, just sort of a chance opportunity where somebody asked him, like, hey, can you go to Copenhagen? And I said, yeah, do a good job. Maybe they'll ask us to, move over there.

>> Viktoria: Oh, yeah. Really?

>> Derek: So, yeah, completely, like, off the guufff. Just joking. Yeah.

>> Viktoria: So. And then, like, he did a good job, obviously.

>> Derek: Yeah. Well, it was funny, Victoria, because he was. It'supposed to be here for, I think, two weeks, like I said. And then almost on day one, they asked, can you stay longer? The deal for him to come over was to fly him back to the US to celebrate Thanksgiving with family. And, you know, my kind of. We both always loved to travel. that's one thing that kind of, you know, was a good thing in, our relationship. Had a lot of curiosity. We loved history but loved to travel. So, I thought, well, you know what? Why don't we just do Thanksgiving in Denmark? When else would we go to Copenhagen? And, yeah, like, cool opportunity. So, like, early on, I started looking at flights, like, oh, that could work. And then I spoke to him, like, his first or second day of working here, and he said, oh, they already want to know if I can stay until December. So, yeah, why don't you come over? I'll make sure that I can still have the holiday off so we can, you know, tour around and do things and, you know, see some Christmas markets and that kind of thing. And, it worked out well. I flew back thinking, well, wonderful. When else would I ever go to Denmark again? I'm glad I got to see, you know, Copenhagen in a area of, Europe and the world, really, that wasn't totally on my radar. And, yeah, well, who knows? I'll probably never come back. And then, lo and behold, he's here for another, I think maybe 10 days. And on the last night, his boss talking about to dinner and, a few other people that were here and said, like, I would love any of you who are interested to come and, do like, six months and see if you like it. And if you do, could be another, like, two years or so. And, you know, I guess the drinks were flowing. And he said, yeah, I'm interested. Let's talk about it more. And, he called me that Night. Now, at this point, it was about 2:00am in, in the U.S. like, he was, out all night and called me on the way to the airport, when he was going toa fly back to the US and he said, and they want to know if we'll move over here. And, I said, well, let's talk about it, more know, face to face. And when we did, when we did meet up, we just said, like, okay, let's, just say our initial thought, yes or no right away. Like, 1, 2, 3. Yes, we both, Both, both. Okay, okay. We'll figure out the res later. And.

>> Viktoria: Okay.

Mike and his partner moved to Denmark after only two years together

>> Derek: And we did.

>> Viktoria: And were you guys already married at the time?

>> Derek: Oh, no. We had only been together, I think, for about two years. We just hit. So in Denmark, there's a threshold for cohabitation, meaning that you can reunite with, a partner, who's here on a work visa or a different type of visa if you meet a qualification for, of, like, cohabitation and some other things. So we had, like, just met that. So we were actually kind of glad, like, okay, this isn't goingn force us to, like, accelerate our relationship because we had met it because we had lived together before that for a required number of months. But, so luckily that that worked out. But, yeah, we actually got married, two years ago.

>> Viktoria: Okay. All right. So. But that is nice, you know, that you don't have to be married to go with your partner, because a lot of people, they're like, okay, I guess we got to get married. Yeah, it's like if you have the freedom not, to exactly.

>> Derek: I mean, it wasn't like, we didn't foresee that, but we didn't. We didn't have to rush anything or make any decisions that were based around this situation and not arounde and our feelings for each other. So that was a nice. A nice benefit.

>> Viktoria: Okay. And then, Did you move right away with him?

>> Derek: Actually, no. So that was. Okay. So now we're talking the beginning of December, he was flown back to the U.S. and they had him come back over one more time in December and then fly back for Christmas at that point, when he came over in December, they essentially took him around to look at different AP and get a feel for different neighborhoods and things like that. But it happened very fast. A lot of people, when they do, a work assignment overseas or an expatriation, it's sort of in their development plan. For him, it was not. It was just kind of an opportunity that he Jumped on his company, acquired a Danish firm. They needed help. They didn't have any counterpart for his role in the new organization in Europe. So it just really was like, right place, right time. He sort of was plucked out of obscurity. And it worked out really well for him. And because we, you know, were sort of at a point where, you know, we didn't have, much else to consider as far as, like, kids or that kind of thing, it was likeah, sure, let's give it a shot and try it.

>> Viktoria: Right? It's just two years exactlye.

>> Derek: I mean, it could have even been six months. Right. So I took a leave of absence. He was back over in December and looked at places. And then, in January he returned. At that point, he returned and they had a furnished apartment that was like a temporary living situation.

>> Viktoria: Okay.

>> Derek: So it all happened really fast, you know, at that point, you know, this was maybe six weeks after that initial ask of like, hey, why don't you consider moving to Denmark? And, yeah, that six months later he had an apartment here. It was very, very rapid. So I basically took the next three and a half months to sort of shut down our lives in Philadelphia. I was working at a university, at that point, and the university I was working for was on trimesters. So I basically wanted to finish out that term. I was an adjunct professor there and thought, okay, this will be a good starting point for me. It'll give me a little time to shut things down in Philadelphia, and then join Mike. So he was doing three weeks in Denmark, one week in the US for those three months. And then I came over in March of 2017.

>> Viktoria: Okay, so you came in March. It was not as dark anymore then. No.

>> Derek: It's actually kind of funny I think about it sometimes because I like to kind of do something for myself and sort of like, honor that anniversary guess. and it's nice to sort of reflect on. And this past year, I don't know why it, like, hadn't hit me in other years, but I thought, wow, it's really funny. I moved like on the spring solstice. Like, I moved like the day or like right around. Like. Yeah, I should, I should know, I guess. What? Maybe the 22nd of March is the solstice.

>> Viktoria: I should know this.

>> Derek: No, sorry, not the solstice. Rather not the sol.

>> Viktoria: Huh?

>> Derek: The equinox. I apologize.

>> Viktoria: okay. Oay.

>> Derek: So it's like the spring equinox, I guess, is when I moved over. And I thought this was probably not the best Time strategically, because at this point the days are just getting longer. And in the Nordics, it's kind of a, region that's famous for the long and dark winters. And I'm thinking, oh, the days are just getting longer and not so bad. I'll be fine. I'll be able to do this. And the following winter, I realized what a difference it was from whatived.

>> Viktoria: Yeah. When you came, just for the few days in November, were you not aware of it?

>> Derek: O. I was aware. I think I was also jet lagged. And it was only. It was something that I don't think I would do now, but I think, I don't know, I even have some friends in the US that do it, but that would fly across the Atlantic or that would do a transcontinental flight for like five days. I think I was here. Okay, so I don't think.

>> Viktoria: Yeah, that's what you mean. Yes.

>> Derek: I don't think I realize, like, okay, is it jet lag? Is it whatever. It definitely seemed like an earlier sunset.

Kelpenhage says Denmark has a different winter than other countries

Like, I could tell it was dark earlier, but I was sort of on like, weird time zones. I probably woke up at a different time than normal. So it just all felt very aw o.

>> Viktoria: And a lot of I just excited to be Kelpenhage.

>> Derek: Exactly. It was the excitement. It was also the, like, you know, Christmas market season. There's, you know, Christmas lights everywhere. So the city itself is a bit brighter than other times of the year. It felt cozy. And then, eventually I realized that, there's a different type of winter. yeah, I luckily kind of missed.

>> Viktoria: Basically for the first time.

>> Derek: Yeah. So basically, like after Christmas, I swear, I think they take the lights down on like the 27th or the 28th. and then it's basically a dark, cold, somewhat depressing winter until spring comes around. So I missed that part entirely.

>> Viktoria: Okay. And so, how was it then the first time and then how did it get better later?

>> Derek: Yeah, so I think the first time it was kind of funny because I remember thinking, o. Okay, like, I loved Christmas here when I visited. at that point I had been here for quite a while, from March until November, December time, when Christmas came around again. That was super nice. Went back to see family at Christmas and then flew back in January. And I remember that initial season and I kind of knew because I had a heads up, from others who had gone through it, including my now husband because he was back here in January. yeah, yeah. So I missed that period. But when I had my first January here. I realized like, wow, where did everybody go? We would.

>> Derek: Sort of like loved the fact that at Christmas year, like, even though it's cold, even though it's whatever, people are outside and people are drinking. I don't know if you know, like log, it's called. Like there's different versions of different countries.

>> Viktoria: We have Blue Vine, I think.

>> Derek: Blue Vine.

>> Viktoria: Okay.

>> Derek: Yes, exactly. So same idea. I don't tell the Danes I said that, but it's basically.

>> Viktoria: Yeah, yeah, that's okay.

>> Derek: but they'll be very. They'll be very. No, we put raisins in ours and nuts.

>> Viktoria: Okayes. It's more fanc. You get it?

>> Derek: Yeah, it's the same thing. So anyway, so like, you know, we're outside drinking our warm, you know, drink, and everybody's ice skating or sitting outside and enjoying the Christmas lights and walking around the city. And then you come back in January and it's just dead.

>> Viktoria: Okay. There's nothing.

>> Derek: Nothing. So I remember telling friends and family that at Christmas how nice it was being outside and then returning and realizing, oh, yeah, then you don't see anybody until March, April. Yeah. But that first, that first day of sunlight when it's a little bit, a little bit of a longer day and just everybody's outsideing and. Yeah. In winter coats and kind of bundled up, everybody's outside again.

>> Viktoria: So'getting some vitamin D. Exactly.

>> Derek: But there's that dead period before.

>> Viktoria: Okay. And is that dreading kind of?

>> Derek: Oh, it is. I'm like a nicer way to say it, but no, I mean, you know, I think, Danes, I love one thing about them, which is, you could call it optimism, you could call it delusion, you call it, gaslighting themselves. I love one thing about Danes is like they have this nice way of saying like, oh, no, but it's so cozy and it's the slow season. And then we hu. And we, you know, they have all is hu. It's you know, they'll say that. I don't say it right as well, but it's this supposedly like non translatable word. They usually say cozy is the closest thing to it, but it's just kind of that idea of like being present, not caring about being like, super entertained. Maybe everybody puts their phone away and you're just playing board games or drinking wine. It's different for every person. So for somebody it may be like one. It's just kind of the idea. It's kind of just, like, winter depression. Right.

>> Viktoria: Sounds like a lovely winter depression.

>> Derek: I mean, it's like, you know, oh, we have, like, these nice blankets, and thick wool socks. And that's so hu. You get, And look, it is nice. But, you do get.

The sun rises quite early in Norway, but I'm still not used to it

I think this is a common expression. We had it at least in the U.S. but, like, cabin fever. Like, I feel like you eventually get cabin fever where you're like, I don't care. I don't want more candles. I don't want. I don't want any more wine. I don't want any more board games. Just, like, get me outside again. Get me some sunlight. Get me on a beach. Yeah. So there's like, a point where I reach that it gets later and later in the year, the longer I'm here, but I'm still not quite used to it yet.

>> Viktoria: Okay. But that is good, though, I guess. I mean, Copenhagen is still not as far north as, like, Sweden. So, like, people have it worse.

>> Derek: Oh, yeah. I t know. Yeah, it can be worse. Yeah. Whenever I do make content about, like, that, you know, people always say, like, oh, but in, where I am in Steavangea, Norway, I'm like, that's fine, but just let me complain a little bit. All right.

>> Viktoria: Yeah.

>> Derek: It's therapeutic. No, it is. I think one thing that, you know, I realized, it's just, even though, we're not in the farthest northern part of Scandinavia, like, Europe itself is a lot farther north than North America. Like, where I'm from, in Philadelphia, it's, you know, the northeast of the United States. But it's. I think it's, like, at the same latitude as southern Spain, which you wouldn't think so. Yeah, like, climate wise, like, it's like the latitude of Madrid, I think. So, like, climate wise, you wouldn't necessarily pair those two, but much farther north than I've ever lived, and the longer days, as nice as they are, that was more of an adjustment for me than the dark winter.

>> Viktoria: Oh, is it?

>> Derek: But, I think I've heard that from other people, too. It's harder to sleepk, and that kind of thing. So, yeah, that can be a little bit more. That was more of an adjustment for me. It still is an adjustment. I'm still not quite used to it.

>> Viktoria: Okay. A stupid question, though. Do the apartments don't have blinds?

>> Derek: They. They don't usually have them built in, but, you know, you go and buy them in. Like, a lot of Danes will say, like, oh, just go get blackout Shades and. Okay, they don't always work.

>> Viktoria: Yeah, I know. There's always.

>> Derek: Exactly. And I mean the sun rises quite early. Like it starts to get light and day sort of starts to break. I don't know when the official sun risse might be. I mean it may still be like, I don't know, maybe like 4am or something. But it starts, it starts to like, you know, the light you see on the horizon and it's like, I mean if you get up at 3 to maybe use the toilet or something and you're like, okay, well now I'm awake because it's hard know, And you know, many Danes will say like, oh, like I sleep with no curtains at all. And I'm like, I didn't go up with this. So you know, it's just one of those things that is. Is still difficult for me biologically. I'm not used to or whatever. I'm not used to it or adjusted to it. But I mean it's such a little thing. But it's just funny. Every summer I still kind of ah, go through it.

>> Viktoria: It So we were in Denmark, last year in summer for vacation. And so my son was always up at night because he was hungry. So we got up at like 4 and we could watch the sunset. The sunrise or.

>> Derek: The sunrise. Yeah.

>> Viktoria: Ye. And then it was s like, okay, this just feels like 6am Doesn't. You know?

>> Derek: It's exactly. Yeah. I was in Bergen in Norway. In Norway in the first week of July in 2017. So the first year that I moved here. And that was like, okay, this is even more, this is even more sunlight. Soeah. But ah, it's just something I'm not quite used to. I don't know that I ever really will be. But it's part of it.

>> Viktoria: Part of it.

>> Derek: Yeah. Yeah, it is. it is what it is. And as much as I joke about the Dane sort of like excusing these like, I mean, yeah, ah, it's just there's probably things about the us that would make them like, oh my gosh, I can't believe you would ever like go through this. And it's just.

It's part of the adventure, right? I do complain sometimes

It is, it is, it's part of the fun, right? It's part of the adventure. And you know, even when I joke around her, I do complain a little bit. I do it with a smile because it's, you know, it's a really cool place to live. It's really cool to have this experience into, Yeah. All around.

>> Viktoria: It's nice.

The Danish immigration laws are tough to work around

And, I want to go back to when you got there. Did you work or, how was your visa status? What was it like?

>> Derek: Sure. So I was on an accompanying partner visa or like a family reunification visa. And that's the type that I'm still on today, because it was just easier. The, Danish immigration laws are, maybe better to call them anti immigration laws, are tough to work around. you know, I don't know that I wouldn't say that Danes themselves are necessarily, unwelcoming to immigration, but the laws and the politicians that, have put them in place certainly are. so that's something that I think people are often surprised about.

>> Viktoria: Yeah, me too.

>> Derek: Yeah.

>> Viktoria: Because I always think it's such a progressive country.

>> Derek: Sure. And look, I think it is. I think it is for Danes. but I think that there's also, maybe they do a good job with public relations.

>> Viktoria: Got it.

>> Derek: Yeah, I think there is a little bit of that. You hear about the hyge and the pastries and stuff, and those things are nice and it's true and that's wonderful. But, you know, the reality is it's not easy to move here. I think it's, purposely been very restrictive to immigration. especially, I would say, since the Syrian refugee crisis.

>> Viktoria: O. Got it.

>> Derek: I think even before that, at a few other points in history, I think. Well, I think like in a lot of places in the world, it's very easy to, have different parties from different sides of the political spectrum sort of, fixate on, immigration. And that certainly happened here in Denmark. particularly around the time that I moved here. shortly after I moved here, there was a politician who had a cake to celebrate the 50th immigration law restriction that she put in place. So that was a very like. Oh. I maybe didn't know about this before I moved here.

>> Viktoria: Right.

>> Derek: And I found out, like, oh, somebody'some like, politician in the Ministry of Immigration is celebrating making it harder for me to live stay here with my partner who's here at work.

>> Viktoria: This is not what you want.

>> Derek: Yeaheah.

>> Viktoria: I mean, come on, you don't need to celebrate about this.

>> Derek: I mean, it's, you know, I certainly understand how those sorts of things happen. I sometimes though, think there's a little bit of, rose colored glasses about the sort of experience of being an immigrant in. And you know, there's so many wonderful things about Denmark, but that's. That's a tough one and that's a reality that I think everybody is aware of and I think Dane sort of excus like having these conversations but'the Hm. It's the reality.

>> Viktoria: Okay, okay. Let's still go back when you got going back.

>> Derek: Yeah a bit of a tangent.

Being married to a Daneish citizen is actually a lot harder

>> Viktoria: Yeah Were you able to work when you got there?

>> Derek: So when I arrived in March I had already filled out the paperwork of course moving for a job. We had some assistance from the company that my then partner, now husband worked for. We had some assistance to get the paperwork in order. So I was ready when I arrived I just had to go and get biometrics, fingerprints and photos taken and then they began to process it. So that was in March. I was given my CPR number so basically my registration number. I was like kind of officially in the system by June. So that actually wasn't too long time. Yeah I have some friends who I made around the same time that moved because they were married to Danes and being married to a Daneish citizen is actually a lot harder and the processing time at that time was actually much longer. ### yeah, it's a bit more. Even more restrictive.

>> Viktoria: Oh wow. I did not think that.

>> Derek: Yeah, I think part of it is I'm guessing here but I think the logic behind that is like we're here to work. That's very easy to process. If he loses his job. It basically is he's got six months to find a new job that meets the qualifications for a work visa or he has to le. Lead the country. And then my accompanying spouse visa, it just like literally my ID card to be in the country has his name on it.

>> Viktoria: Yeah. So you're connected to his.

>> Derek: I'm connected to his. His literally has his company's name on it.

>> Viktoria: okay, so he's connected to the company so you're connected to his jobes.

>> Derek: So if those things, either of those things change then we have six months to leave. ok. Reapply for a different visa type.

>> Viktoria: Okay, got it.

How difficult was it to find a job in Copenhagen after moving there

And did how was it for you finding a job in Copenhagen?

>> Derek: So it was, it wasn't easy. but I went through a few. There was like one. I don't think the program exists anymore but at the time when I moved there was a program for people through the municipal government through the Kamuna to app. so to get some job training. and I did that program. I got some assistance and then I was sort of in their database. So when certain companies especially startups Were looking to hire someone. They could get essentially a grant from the Kamuna, meaning the government was paying my salary for the first six months and then could see if that was a fit and then they could decide they were going to keep me on or not. So I worked for a startup through that program. when I first arrived. It took me about a year to get that position, even with, the training through the Kamuna. And then basically, I think a lot of people do end up working in startups when they move here because they're more apt to hire somebody who is a foreigner.

>> Viktoria: I see. How long was that program for?

>> Derek: So the. I want to say it was just like a three week sort of. Okay, like, like training. I think I'm gonna sayve this like twice a week, maybe two hour sessions.

>> Viktoria: Or something like that.

>> Derek: they helped with like getting your CV written correctly or sort of like for the Danish job market, tips on sort of the networking process and sort of how the networking culture and the job search culture as well as the office culture and interview sort of go in a Danish workplace. So kind of like got to pick up on those nuances and learn some of those tips and tricks. And then. Yeah, and then it was kind of like thrown out to apply. I did a lot of that on my own as well. And then I would occasionally get a call like, hey, we have somebody who is interested in candidates with your background. Are you interested in this job? And I'd go on a couple interviews. and then eventually I did find a job through that. I guess they probably would have kept anybody who completed that program, in the system or kept their CVs on file. And I was lucky. I got kind of matched with employer straight away.

How would you say the work environment is different in denmark to the U.S

>> Viktoria: And how would you say the work environment is different in denmark to the.

>> Derek: U.S. yeah, I mean there's quite a few differences, I would say. I, think the big thing that you hear a lot, which is fundamentally true, is that there's more of a focus on work life balance in Denmark. but that's not always the case. I feel like the US is a little behind there, but things are getting better in a lot of workplaces I think, especially as people in the younger generations. Having a millennial so manager is probably a bit different in the US than having somebody from an older generation be a manager. So as like generations are moving up into leadership, I do think things are improving a bit in the US I think post Covid, from what my friends are telling me, there's a lot more of that, flexibility in order to attract people. I notice that it's a bit more of a flat management style in Denmark. Very known for being that there's like almost no hierarchy.

>> Viktoria: Uh-huh.

>> Derek: A lot of people, like, I'll tell you, like, I definitely like that initially, but there were times at maybe o. There's a different job that I had before I started going into the creator field full time. My most recent job before I started this like sort of creator journey full time about two years ago, at that job I was sometimes frustrated by this flat hierarchy. It is nice. It's nice on paper, right? Like you have a very loose, reporting structure. The idea that like anybody can share ideas. sometimes, coming from an American corporate culture, it was frustrating because I was like, yeah, I get this. But if I don't really have a manager then who's like why am I reporting to you? Or like if I'm sort of left on my own to manage myself, right, then why do I on paper have a manager? I feel like that was a bit of an adjustment. I didn't always. I think it depends how the company culture is, but that can I think either be a hit or miss for somebody who's not used to it. so it is a bit more laid back in that way. I find a little bit less collegiality. I find a little bit less of like socializing with colleagues. But that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. In some ways it happens more but I don't feel like it happens organically. So there are many events, like maybe a monthly office event. There's usually a big Christmas party and maybe a summer party that almost everybody attends. But I find the Danish workplace is often. We eat lunch together in our team for a 30 minute lunch break today and you don't eat at your desk, you eat with your team. And that's very important. Not always as important in the US and it's also like that monthly sort of social event most people attend, even those with kids. I find that when Danes have a. And not just Danes, when people living in Denmark, whether they're Danish or international, sort of have the school aged kids and that kind of thing. It's like the shift focus to basically being on a very similar schedule.

>> Viktoria: Okay.

>> Derek: People start work a little bit earlier because they want to be there for pickup. Maybe they alternate. so maybe, you know, if they have pick up this week, then they're leaving the office at three but they come in a bit earlier and they're sort of trusted to do that. That's a really nice thing. Okay. And you don't. One thing that's different in the US I think is that colleagues would probably Oh, how do I say it Politely? Can I curse?

>> Viktoria: Yeah, I know they would like it definitely look weird at you. Yes.

>> Derek: Yeah, exactly. And we in Denmark, you know, a lot of things are like well everybody does this and everybody does this when they have kids and we pick up the slack for each other. And when these people they, when their kids are old enough to ride their bike home or what have you, then there will be newer people who will be leaving at three and they'll be staying, you know, so it's very much got. That's how we do it. That's you know, not something we complain about because we all do it. So I don't know if that makes sense. Where's in the U.S. i think that would be.

>> Viktoria: Everybody chips in.

>> Derek: Exactly.

>> Viktoria: Yeah.

>> Derek: So yeah. So again like I don't find any of these things like right or wrong or better or worse. It's just some things that were different and you know, for the most part I think are pretty. Are pretty nice.

>> Derek: I was saying the social thing I do sort of miss In the US I think it was much more common to do like, sort of like these organic social events where perhaps there would be maybe a monthly breakfast or something at work where everybody would eat breakfast together on a Friday and then go to work. But you would have sort of organic like oh, Staceacy is leaving to go to another company. So we're going toa have a happy hour on a Friday and everybody'gonn go. Did you hear about this? Oh yeah. Make sure you tell the people on your team we're alln toa meet at whatever bar after work or like that. It's sort of more internal and more of a like workplace thing when that happens in Denmark, which is also very nice. It's just a different way of doing it. And yeah, so it's familiar but it's sort of more structured, it's more scheduled. It's more like planned by the company rather than organic for the people that work there.

>> Viktoria: And when you first got there, was there something culturally that, that stuck out to you in terms of what was very different?

>> Derek: There's definitely a lot of things I think I didn't realize necessarily that Americans have sort of this reputation And I definitely see now where it is true in many ways, even about myself, even still, with this much time in that we're a bit more outgoing and we're a bit more, eager to talk to somebody, even if we don't know them very well. We're very comfortable in like, social settings. Knowing that it's only going to be, temporary.

>> Viktoria: Yeah, yeah.

>> Derek: Or knowing that it may be talking to somebody or getting to know somebody and that may not go into like a long lasting or long term friendship. whether it's somebody know, at a networking event or a cocktail party or even just, you know, somebody, we're quick to meet somebody, say like on a sports team or a club that we're doing and then like immediately say like, oh, why don't we, get a coffee or why don't we do something, on the weekend.

>> Viktoria: Yeah.

>> Derek: I find that Danes, and I've heard that this is pretty true across Scandinavia, that Danes tend to be a bit more reserved in that way. it's also, I've heard it described as like, not m only are they a bit uncomfortable with it, but it's also a bit of modesty. It's a bit of like, why would you want to have a coffee with me? We only, we don't know each other that well, so it's a bit of understanding where it comes from. I think it even goes back to some of the schooling and the way that like, our school systems are a bit different. so I think that there's a lot to. But once you sort of understand it, it sort of unlocks the reason why we just kind of socialize a little bit differently.

>> Viktoria: Uh-huh.

A lot of the Danes that I'm friends with are Danish friends

But did you eventually make Danish friends just took a little bit longer or are you more still like in the expt community?

>> Derek: Definitely a little bit of both. A lot of the Danes that I'm friends with are Danish friends who have either lived abroad before or they're Danish friends who have a partner who is international or foreign.

>> Viktoria: okay.

>> Derek: I think maybe for both scenarios they're just a little more comfortable in English or a little more comfortable having friends that are from a different culture and they're a little sensitive to, you know, sort of what people in the expat, international, immigrant, whatever term you want to put on a community or going through. So, so I find most of my Danish friends are sort of like that. I do think, whether it's conscious or not, if I had to make a broad, sweeping statement, I think Danes are much more comfortable Hanging out with others from their own culture. M Even though I think they are well traveled and curious people, they sort of revert back to what they know. and I don't fault them for that. I wasn't walking around, I wasn't walking around Philadelphia, like seeking out people with different accents or whatever, you know. But I think coming from the US I'm more used to a multicultural community. I come from a bigger city and even having friends from, you know, like the west coast for me would be almost like an international because I'm like, mean.

>> Viktoria: Yeah. So far.

>> Derek: What's. Or I don't know what Oregon is like. Yeah, it'like be my friend. I want to know more about it, you know. So, so yeah, I think it's just something that I was, you know. So I think there's a lot of, interesting cultural reasons behind that. But I sometimes have. I've gone back and forth where I'm like, no, you should learn Danish. Seek out Danish friends, like join clubs and organizations. That's sort of like the go to. I think the Danish attitude, right or wrong, I don't really think it's either. it's just different. I think the Danish attitude is more like, we don't owe you anything. Like I don't have to be your friend, but if I am gonna be your friend, it's gonna be because we, do these activities together, like a club or a sport or something. And then over time, maybe, I'm talking like, maybe like a year, we'll form some kind of friendship outside of that. I think if you're an expat or again, whatever language. I know some people get fired up by that word.

>> Viktoria: Yeah. But when you move there fromwhere to.

>> Derek: A different country, you may only be there especially on a work assignment for a year or two years. You're not necessarily going to have time to invest. You know, you need to have a network. You need to have people around you. You need that social interaction. You need to find your people. And I think for that reason often it's not going to be Danes, at least initially, because they want longer to forge that friendship. When you're, when you don't know anybody, you've got to make friends fast. And that's probably going to mean that they're other international. You're gon toa go to different expat, events and you'renna meet people that are also looking for friends. I met a lot of people through Danish lessons because of course they were others like Me who were moving to Denmark without much of a network from somewhere else in the non Danish speaking world, which is basically the world. and they were eager to connect. So, that was really nice. And that also felt for/r because it felt like, oh, here's people who are going to accept an invitation for a drink or for dinner or for coffee or to come to a party without knowing me super well first. That's not really the way that Danes befriend people. but now that I've been here longer, I've learned that. I've learned to accept that. And I'm also comfortable. If you want to call it a bubble, I'm fine being in an expat bubble because I think that Danes also have a bubble too, and that's fine. and I also respect that it is easier to, relate to friends who speak your mother'tongue yeah, it is. At the native level, or at least in the culture and the references in the background. I totally get that.

>> Viktoria: In respect you have like something to talk about, for example, the trouble with your paperwork or, whatever. The trouble of get whatever. Finding food that tastes good.

>> Derek: Something with a spice level above mild. Yes. I like being with friends who I'm not. I love my Danish friends, but I'm not gonna invite them out for tacos because they won't eat them. Right.

>> Viktoria: Like, they cannot eat it.

>> Derek: I joke. Yeah. Their favorite spice is butter. Yeah. So, ah, that's, that's fine. and it's damn good butter though. But, no, I totally respect that. I think it goes. I think it sort of goes both, ways too. I think Danes also kind of like being around, other Danes. that's fine. I do have Danish friends again, but it takes a little bit longer and it's not as easy, as it is in other places.

>> Viktoria: And you just mentioned it.

How did you learn your Danish? How did you communicate

your Danish lessons. so how is your Danish? How did you learn how you communicate?

>> Derek: Ah, yeah. Ioilensk. Ah. Not very good at Danish.

>> Viktoria: Still mean M. I speak Danish.

>> Derek: It means I'm not very good Danish. M O. Yeah. So I did lessons for about six months. and I paused due to. Yeah, I mean, partially it was frustration. Frustration, I would say perhaps diminishing returns. I think my friends who are the most success with Danish are the ones who get a private tutor and they don't necessarily go to sproul school or language school.

>> Viktoria: Okay.

>> Derek: The ones who, the ones who do the best are the ones who have the private tutor or the ones who are married to a Dane or maybe have a Danish roommate who can get that direct and immediate feedback. I think it's really wonderful. Denmark does have a way for everybody to take Danish lessons with zero cost and some instances for students, et cetera. For zero deposit or down payment, you can take Danish lessons. and while that's wonderful, I don't know that it's the most efficient way to learn because sometimes it's like there's 25 people in the room. I'm not having a teacher sort of one on one correct how I say things and got m. It's maybe not the most efficient way. I also, I don't have any Danish family. I don't speak it for work. These are all excuses. but they're also reasons. So I don't have Danish family. I don't have anybody to correct me and I don't have a huge urgent need to speak it on a regular basis. And I know that that's privileged because Danes are very good at English. I know that's privileged because I come from a native, I come from an English speaking country and live in Copenhagen where there's mostly English speakers, living. And it would be harder if I came from somewhere else in the world.

>> Viktoria: Do you. So if you go to the supermarket or go to a restaurant or go to the post office, it's totally. You get by with English or do you?

>> Derek: In almost every case. Yeah, in almost every case. I, this doesn't mean that everything is going to be written in English. I'm pretty good at read. I'm pretty good at reading Danish though. I know my, you know, if you're holding up flashcards, I would get all the food ones correct. I'm good at grocery store Danish. I'm good at grocery or I'm good at like restaurant menu Danish. and I could probably muddle my way through a, ah, meal out, at a restaurant in Danish spoken. The problem is I'm not always understood super well. Danes aren't used to hearing other people speak Danish as a second language. They're really not hearing anybody speak Danish as a second language. Unless you are really speaking at the way that they do and I mean almost down to like the regional dialect, it's going to be difficult to be understood.

Danish is in the top 10 hardest languages to learn, according to research

>> Viktoria: Do you speak English at work then?

>> Derek: Yes. so now I am working 100% of my own. But I do often work ah, at co working places and I do work out of a studio. and when I'm in Those places, the language is English. It's sort of a, global, I guess, environment, working environment. And the language is English. My husband, same thing. His office is international. And. And it's always been English only.

>> Viktoria: Okay. But I remember from, last year when we were in Denmark, because my husband also talks like, oh, yeah, maybe we should move to Copenhagen. and then I'm like, okay, but Danish, it's so hard to learn. So we're from Germany. so if I see it written, there are a lot of words that are very similar, but the pronunciation is so different's. And then I did some research there. it's been over a year that I did the research. So it's not like 100% correct what I'm saying here, but I want to say it's like in the top 10 hardest languages to learn.

>> Derek: Yeah, I've heard that as well. Even I think Danish kids, I think on average speak later.

>> Viktoria: Oh, yeah.

>> Derek: In their language development. So it's not just us adults. Even native Danish children begin speaking, later. Because it's tough. it doesn't look. Nothing really is pronounced the way that it looks. So it's very difficult. You almost can't read phonetically, and different letters have different sounds based on the letter that it proceeds or follows. and the vowels can be tricky. If you don't speak it precise, it can be tough. and, I think maybe a, linguist would be better on sort of the understanding why. But my hypothesis is basically Danes aren't used to hearing other speakers speak Danish. Danesou, have trouble understanding other Danes from different parts of the country. And it's not a huge country. It's not like Germany. You know, I could understand maybe having somebody with an accent from Bavaria. If you're in Cologne being like, oh, that's different. But I understand we're speaking, you know, it's. It's. I don't know, something about, strong.

>> Viktoria: So they have strong dialects.

>> Derek: Yes.

>> Viktoria: Got it.

>> Derek: and I think unless you really lose your accent, it's.

>> Viktoria: How do you lose your accent? I have not in a long time.

>> Derek: I don't know.

>> Viktoria: I don't know.

>> Derek: It's tricky. and it can be, Yeah, so it can be. It can be tough. And I have some Danish friends who are super great, in. Hey, if you want. Why don't we try to, like, practice a little bit. I've had other, encounters with people where, I say people in the wild, sort of organic conversations where people, are not as friendly and don't offer a lot of grace when you're trying to learn, which can make it tough. I feel like I'm being negative because I do love living here and it's fun learning a language. It really is. I think there's also. I don't know how familiar you are with Danish humor, but there's a lot of like self irony. It sometimes feels like they're sort of like, a lot of like picking on the same sort of like jokes over and over. They kind of like pressure test people and I think they do that with the language a lot. where it's sometimes like, oh, you're basically just are like asking an immigrant who's learning your language to say something very difficult for the purpose of laughing at them. And that's messed up.

>> Viktoria: Oay.

>> Derek: That's what come from. That's like I would be in trouble if I did that like at work or even like as a child growing up in school. Like I would have been reprimanded. So that kind of thing happens and can make it make it a little tough to learn and practice.

>> Viktoria: ye. And

Being a trailing partner can be a struggle no matter where you go

So what was for you then the biggest struggle?

>> Derek: Oh, I mean that's definitely. I think the things that are harder, the things that are hard everywhere. Right. Like you sort of like you miss having your network, you miss having your family and friends. I think I've been very fortunate in a lot of ways though, because I moved here with my partner. We come from the same culture and the same background. I think the struggle. It's been tough with, I think the employment part. I think being a trailing partner can be a struggle no matter where you go because you're not the one moving for the job. You're usually giving something up to move abroad. You sort of don't have your own thing. You don't know where you fit. And everybody finds that when they move abroad. But at least the partner that moves for the job or for school has that right. Like they have a place to go where they belong. Every day for eight hours. You don't. So yeah, know was. That was a tough time. but I do try when I meet people who are in those shoes, I always try to say like, hey, like, you will find your place. You will find what works for you. At a certain point, these things that seem like cultural oddities or seem like they're at odds with where you came from, from will eventually you'll just look at them and be like, ah, so fun that Danes do this. And oh, I know how to do this. Now you have to celebrate like these small things too. but yeah, there's a lot of funny unwritten rules that can make it tough. But once you kind of get past that and you find your place and you figure out what you should be doing.

>> Viktoria: Yeah.

>> Derek: you know, it's, ah, it's pretty nice. But that wasably the biggest struggle. Yeah.

M. M.: Things are very calm here. People are very peaceful and content

>> Viktoria: Okay. And what is it that you really like?

>> Derek: M. you know, I think the thing that I. I wouldn't. I would even say to love about Denmark is that it's a very. Things are very calm here. Things are very. People are very peaceful and content and it's calm. And sometimes I'm like, where, where did it go? And I'll sometimes have like, meaning of the stress. Right. Like sometimes I'll have these like, things where it's like, oh, maybe I'm like waiting in a queue. And I find that like, it's taking a while for the person in front of me and I get this agitation that I think is very specific to like an American northeast city agitation. And I'm like, o. And then I'm like, no, relax, like now, where to be? You're just waiting in a queue. Calm down, it's fine. I think Danes have like a very laid back way of life and it's really nice to tap into. You hear about this like Scandinavian minimalism and Denmark's the happiest country. And I wouldn't say that they're happy walking around with weird smiles on their faces. They're not, they're just content. and they manage to have a very fulfilled and full life with literally not giving up anything. But also like in a very simple way, like, they don't deprive themselves of anything. If they want to have a drink on a know, Wednesday afternoon or something, they will if they want to. Like, like there's just like no shame in that kind of thing. I don't know if it's like the Viking mentality they usually sort of like laugh about, but I'm like, no, it's just you've held on to something or tapped into something really cool, which is like, they just have a way of like finding beauty and simple things, not depriving themselves of anything and in turn live like a very fulfilled lifestyle. And I love being able to embrace that.

>> Viktoria: Uh-huh.

Did you feel welcome when you moved to Denmark? Did you encounter any problems

And can I ask you about, the gay community? Like, how was it? Did you feel welcome when you moved there? Did you encounter any problems? You didn't expect.

>> Derek: Yeah, I mean, it's pretty nice. I think in a way it's been a very nice sub community to become a part of. I met my husband, therefore, like, basically when I did meet him, and that sort of put me on like, the track to end up living in Denmark, was through a gay sports league in Philadelphia. That's how we met. So we ended up joining a, ah, similar league here in Copenhagen when we moved here. And that's how we made a lot of our initial friends, especially a lot of our initial Danish friends. and I think a community that understands what it's like to be an outsider and understand what it's like to be an Other in the larger group, I think is more sympathetic and empathetic to what we go through as immigrants. So I can't say specifically that, like, oh, yeah, I mean, it's been like so huge in my development here. But I do think that that's been a really nice, group to be a part of and to be open and open minded to people, from other places that live in Denmark.

>> Viktoria: Because I mean, for me it's like when I think of Denmark, it was like one of the first countries that allowed gay marriage in Europe. Right. Because I remember that people from Germany went to Denmark to get married. So I already, I assume already that it's totally fine. You're not encountering any problems. People are really open about it.

>> Derek: Yeah. So, Denmark had the first same sex union in Copenhagen city hall in 1989. so marriage itself came later. but they were kind of monumental in allowing those first same sex couples to have a recognized, civil union in, in the City hall. My husband and I actually got married in that same room. So that's n. That was part of the reason behind it.

>> Viktoria: Uh-huh.

>> Derek: So, yeah, I do feel like, Denmark is, still kind of progressive and has that part of LGBT history. I do think, and I think if you spoke to some of the members of, some of the boards in Denmark for LGBT rights and things like that, they would probably agree there's a tendency to sort of rest on those laurels. and there's more that can be done, especially in terms of, public perception isn't the same outside of Copenhagen as it is in Copenhagen. so I think I'm fortunate to live in the capital, but, I think in more rural parts of Uuland, I think in different parts of, really the whole country, that's not always the case. And I do have people write to me, especially when I will have people sometimes, send me DMs or comment on content that I make around that to point out. And I think it's important that, they've told me, hey, it's not like that everywhere. Or they'll say, like, hey, I'm a member of the trans community and I live outside of Copenhagen. And I'm glad that's your experience, but that is not my experience.

>> Viktoria: Okay.

>> Derek: And so I think there is a bit of,

>> Viktoria: Yeah, it's like every big city. I mean, I say this all the time, and it probably is also stereotype, but if you are in a big city, it's more normal. It's not like something special.

>> Derek: I don't feel like I stand out here.

>> Viktoria: Yeah, exactly.

>> Derek: I don't feel like I stand out in Copenhagen. I don't know that, Yeah. And again, I don't know. I think there's a difference between tolerance and acceptance. I think there's a difference between acceptance and embracing, you know? And so I think that, like, is it tolerated in Denmark? Of course. I think the LGBT community. And again, I don't have experience as the T. I don't like speaking for, because I do think that there's more, transphobia than homophobia. I think I have a lot of privilege being a cisgender white man in a, European country and Northern European capital. so I don't necessarily like to speak for the entire community in that way, But I think it's important that I at least acknowledge that it's not my experience. But I've had conversations with those from those communities, and they say, no, it's not the same experience you have. It's not as tolerated as it is for you, even in Copenhagen, but certainly outside of co Copenhagen for members of, say, the trans community, or. And sometimes even within probably the gay community as well.

M. Dane'love: Yeah, there's always a risk of backsliding

>> Viktoria: Okay. All right. Well, I'm glad I brought it up, and I'm glad you, clarified it.

>> Derek: Yeah. I mean, I do think this. Don't get me wrong, I think it's super nice. but I think m. There's always more work to do. Yeah, there's always a risk of backsliding.

>> Viktoria: Yeah. and, do you. Okay. Changes. M. Sorry, do you like, licorice now?

>> Derek: Oh, no, no. Look, I've tried it. Dane'love I think everybody does this. We love kind of like making people try stuff.

>> Viktoria: Right.

>> Derek: You know's.

>> Viktoria: I mean, it's everywhere.

>> Derek: In ice cream 100% it. Oh's. It's an ice cream. It's in. I say this and like it's in toothpaste. And I've mentioned that content and Danes will be like, it's in toothpaste. That's not true. And like, I'll send them a link to like the toothpaste and be like, look, this is what. This is like the regular brand that's in all the stores. Like they have a ls you know, chewing gum ice cream. it's. They love it. It's not a taste.

Do you like Danish food? Do you recommend Danish food to tourists

>> Viktoria: Do you do you like Danish food? Because, I mean, not for like a lot of people that when they think moving abroad, they move to a country where whatever, they have great cuisine. But Denmark is not that famous for it, I guess.

>> Derek: Yeah. what I usually tell people is like, I think m. Okay, don't.

>> Viktoria: Go here for the food.

>> Derek: I won't hold back. no, I don't particularly like Danish food. you know, it's a lot of meat and potatoes and it's fine. I mean they make it their certain way or it's a lot of like, like pork and potatoes with a, ah, parsley sauce is basically like the national edition. I'm like, parsley, parsley. That's like a garnish in most countries. You made a whole sauce out of it and that was. However, it's not bad. I've tried it. but if somebody was going to come here, say as a tourist or something like that, I wouldn't necessarily say, go try the national dish. I think most Danes would even say like, yeah, that's not the best food, but that's our national dish. okay. And it comes from different times when maybe they, you know, like that's like what like grandma would me, you know, the. I think it goes without saying, you know, some, some of the best restaurants in the world are in Denmark. I think it's the biggest concentration of Michelin star restaurants. So I think new. The new Nordic cuisine is wonderful. I think there's a lot of really cool, you know, I think Denmarkks s a really good breeding ground for a lot of culinary ventures. And a lot of them do come out of sort of that mold of Noma, the restaurant.

>> Viktoria: I guess everybody knows it since the bear.

>> Derek: Yes, exactly. And you know, depending on the ethics of that restaurant, like, however, I think the new Nordic, concept is really fabulous. And I've had some very good meals here. There's some excellent meals. excellent restaurants in Copenhagen and around Denmark that I think are worthy. I would say if you're going to come here, definitely get a new Nordic meal. And there's some places where you can find like, say a three or five course menu for like relatively the same price anywhere. Like that's what I always recommend to people. Some really cool like, street food ventures and things like that. And of course the bakeries, I mean the breads, the pastries.

>> Derek: That's wonderful. So I usually steer people that way.

What would you say to someone thinking about moving to Denmark

>> Viktoria: Okay. And okay, so we're coming to an end, but I have one last question. so what do you say to somebody who is thinking about making Denmark their next home, but would you recommend to them?

>> Derek: Oh, okay. So like, if somebody was moving here, I would want them to be prepared for a lot of wonderful times, to know that they're going to have like a really good lifestyle. You can have a really good life in Denmark. I also always recommend that people keep in mind moving to Denmark won't shield you from the problems or the not so good things that maybe you've had in your life before. You know, I think there's some myths of like, oh, it's, you know, this wonderful happy country and the welfare state solves all of your problems and this and that. And it's like, well, no, people in Denmark also have problems. I described a lot of them in this conversation. so come into it ey wide open that this is a wonderful place to live. I love calling Denmark home. There's a lot of things that, can be tough about it. these unwritten cultural rules and sort of how to break into, friend groups and they're somewhat protective of the culture and that can be tough. The daylight, can sort of mess with you. So you will have these things. But it is a wonderful place. If you put in some of the work it takes to live here, it's so worth it. You get out what you put in and I think it's you can have a really nice life here. Things can be very calm and nice and supported. but you do have to, you know, sort of do the work you do in everyday life and it can be a really nice place to live.

Derek talked about life in Copenhagen and in Denmark

>> Viktoria: All right, all right. well said. All right. then thank you so much for the conversation. It was so nice to meet you and to have you here.

>> Derek: Likewise. Wonderful. Thanks for the talk.

>> Viktoria: Of course that was Derek about life in Copenhagen and in Denmark. And I think he gave us a really good insight how it really is. Like he talked a lot about the downs, but also the ups. I liked how he mentioned it. It is not always like rose colored glasses, you know, it's like he was real about it. So I very appreciate that and I hope, like, you guys who are interested in moving to Denmark. yeah. Got a lot of information about it and, like, heard what you wanted to hear. Okay. And that was it. From Worlds collide in 2024. I hope you have a great holiday season and also have a happy New Year. And I will be back in early January. Until then, bye.