A Bitcoiner adage, fix the money, save the world. If it was that simple I think that would be an awesome circumstance, but I just suspect that it's more complicated than that. The bigger narrative around Venezuela in particular is truly heartbreaking collapse of a country, of an economy and a huge diaspora of people who have had to leave their country. When I talk to my parents and my family about Venezuela, that's what we talk about. That issue is harder to define, harder to solve, harder to talk about. And this interesting technology is the footnote. But the bigger story is what happened to this country and what does this look like for the next generation?

Hey everybody. Welcome to Orange Hatter.

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​Hi, Elena. Thank you so much for joining us on Orange Hatter. It's awesome to have you on the show today.

Thank you for having me, Tali. I cannot wait to jump into this discussion. I've been listening to Orange Hatter, and I'm just really grateful for the opportunity to share my story with you guys.

Awesome. Let's go over your personal background. What would you like to share with our audience?

Yeah, I'll start with a little bit of background. So I grew up in Texas. I have lived in California and New York for school, and I recently moved back to Texas so that my family and my daughter, we could be closer to our extended family. So a little bit about me. I don't come from a technical background, even though I work in this pretty technical industry. I studied liberal arts and I have a passion for the humanities, languages, history all of those types of things. And so that's my educational background. And then also from a professional background, it's a little all over the board as well. So after college, I started working in a non profit. I did that for a few years. And then I went to grad school and now I work in product marketing. Then I've mostly worked in product marketing and the blockchain Bitcoin, what people call web three industry. That's a little bit about my personal and professional background, some things that I like to add, I'm a Capricorn and yeah going out, having fun with friends and family. Those are mostly the things that bring me a lot of energy and joy.

So you grew up in Texas. What was it like? Which part of Texas did you grow up? And we can stay really general, not necessarily the city name, and then, is it okay if I ask you about your family's culture background?

Yeah. Yeah.

okay. So can you describe a little bit about the way you grew up? Maybe just a little bit on your family life and help us understand better where you're coming from?

So my my family is Cuban and Venezuelan. My dad's from Cuba, but he grew up in Venezuela. And then my mom's side of the family is Venezuelan, so me and my brothers were all first generation Americans. We grew up in Houston, Texas, which is a very kind of culturally and ethnically diverse city. It's a large, spread out city. So growing up having this English at school, Spanish at home, bi cultural experience was really special. At the time, I didn't realize how special it was. As I've gotten older, especially now that I have a kid yeah, you just realize it's a really enriching thing to to celebrate or to lean back on, and it helps me connect with other people. I've connected with folks who especially in the Bitcoin ecosystem, you can connect across borders because you have a cross border experience. So I speak Spanish at home. It's easier to connect with people in Latin America or to learn about how people use type of technology, but this one in particular. So yeah, growing up with a Venezuelan and Cuban background was pretty cool. And then in Houston, there's just like such a huge breadth of different ethnicities or immigrant populations, so Houston has a huge Vietnamese community, Houston has an awesome food scene, Houston has so much, I got, we can make this a podcast all about Houston, I'm also very in my feels about it because we recently moved back But it was an awesome tapestry to, to grow up in. And I think helped shape how I approach different things or how I look into learning new things going forward. I feel like I have a curiosity and open mindedness that I try to keep in adulthood. It was one of those things you have as a kid and you just have to hold onto it as long as you can.

Being an immigrant and a first generation American as well I have found that the immigrant community has a very particular way of looking at money and financial success and how to get there. For example you would see, I'm Chinese but the example I'm going to give is Korean. So the Koreans would come over to the country and they will be multifamilies forming a community and supporting each other to start entrepreneur endeavors all around the city. And in the beginning, you don't really see them, but suddenly it would feel like overnight and they're just popping up everywhere. Like their business success is so visible, you know, everybody's driving around in Mercedes Benz and they, they work so closely as a group, rather than the families coming over to the States and each forming their own household, they really work together. So is, and I feel like even though they sacrifice independence, which is so valued in the American society, they end up having the ability to enjoy more independence down the road, because they give that up in the beginning, and then you several years in a row, suddenly they're all financially set to then create their pocket of independence. Does that make sense? Is that something that you personally experienced or maybe witnessed when you're growing up?

Yeah. That's an interesting, so when I was growing up. It's not so I will say Venezuela has had such a painful history as of late with financial crises and maybe humanitarian crises over the last maybe 10 years. When I was growing up, Venezuela was not at that level, and so most of my family was still in Venezuela, and we were the weird ones that were over here in the United States and so while I think the The anecdote you shared is probably true. It wasn't necessarily something that I experienced firsthand. Cause it's not like now where there is a wave of Venezuelan immigrants. And I do feel like there is a strong. In places like Houston or Miami, there's a strong Venezuelan community that supports one another but growing up it wasn't as pronounced, at least in my experience. What I do think as you were talking, this is what made me think. It made me think of more than the collective versus individual or collectivist and sovereign or individual experience. It's more, I think, for me, having perspective of what it's like to live outside of the United States. I think when folks Maybe talk about what's going on in a particular community or in a particular city or in a particular country, especially in the United States. If you've only grown up here it's really hard to have empathy or understanding for what it feels like elsewhere. And so when immigrants or people who, yeah when immigrants come to United States, that hunger to succeed and that very laser focused work ethic is probably motivated by the experience that they are coming from or leaving from. And if you've only ever grown up in the United States, of course, there are folks here who are super hungry and super driven and super committed. But sometimes I laugh when folks talk about the strength of the dollar or, crime on the streets. Those things definitely happen here. But it, If you've come from a place like Venezuela, if you have family who are living in other places, it just really puts that in perspective. And then one of the things that's always stuck with me is how much my parents loved this country and how much they're like, this is where your dreams come true. This is the place where opportunities are made real. And so I think that That patriotism and celebration and joy that an immigrant comes to the United States, they have they maybe love it. Even more because they appreciate how special it is. Whereas if you've grown up here, you might not see that perspective. There's a quote, and I forget who the, I feel like it's David Foster Wallace, but there's a quote about two fishes swimming in a fish bowl and somebody swims by and says, Oh, how's the water? And the fish ask themselves what's water? Because if you're swimming in it, you don't really realize what it is, because you've never known anything else. So yeah, that's what your observation or your comment made me think of.

Yeah. That is so true. When you were talking, I actually remember this one story and it might offend some people, but I'm going to share it anyway, but I, I just remember, I, I can't even remember if it was an article or just a story that I heard, but it was a Taiwanese academic in the United States answering somebody's question. And the person was accusing American companies for utilizing sweatshops in Asia and how horrible it is that these people have to work such long hours and the conditions are terrible. And, how dare we do that and don't buy products from those companies, that kind of thing. And This particular Taiwanese person said, yeah my aunt works at one of those factories in Taiwan. And yes, from your perspective is terrible, but from her perspective, her only other option is prostitution. And so you can't always judge a situation from one side of the coin because to her, that's sweat shop, yes, it's tough. Yes, it's not great. But in her experience, it's a thousand times better than the alternative. And if we just say across the board, Oh, that's terrible for him. Humanitarian reasons don't ever buy from this company because they use sweatshops like that. That's a very narrow view of right and wrong, so

Yeah, it makes me think of the the truest luxury the only luxury really is is choice, like having the option. And what might sound in the United States, the perspective you just shared implies that a person as a consumer has a choice. And if you're Comfortable enough off and you have a choice between buying something that's made ethically that source locally I'm sorry, that's four times as expensive as something that you would get at a big box store. And so imposing a value set. That's based on an assumption that everybody has the same choice is messed up because not, we don't all have the same choice. And like the more choice or the more optionality you have, the more privilege you have, the more, that's, those are all the values that we talk about, like freedom liberty, all that is just saying you have a choice. And so people who don't have a choice typically don't have the freedom to move, or the liberty to choose, or the freedom to associate. So yeah, that, that is, and that, I also think that goes back to perspective if you have no idea that you, there are people in your own community who don't have the choice between, buying a vegan, organic, locally sourced, delicious croissant as opposed to whatever is the most affordable option. That also makes me think of narratives around food and what's good for you and what's bad for you and sometimes the only option that you have is not the option that's the best for you, but that's what you got. That's the option you have.

yeah, for sure. I wish I could remember the sources of where I've read these things, but like a story just popped into my head again. And it was, yeah. Somewhere I saw it was pictures of people right now, modern people living on the Indian reservations.

Huh.

and they have a lot of issues with alcoholism and drug use, but they also have a ton of issues with obesity. And they

interesting

eat a lot of charity food items and by necessity, because they're being shipped in, they are in cans, and they are drinking free sodas and they're eating canned vegetables and canned meat and things like that. And Like you're saying, it's wonderful to have the choice to say, I'm not going to buy canned food because that's not good for me. I'm going to buy fresh food, but it's not always. possible. And then on the other hand, I want to share a different place where I heard someone say she's an energy teacher and she had, she was conducting a workshop and this man came up to her from the back of the room and he was in tattered clothing. You can tell he was homeless, sores everywhere, gaunt and his skin color was gray. And you can just tell that he was probably eating out of garbage cans, the garbage dump and for that man, he doesn't have a choice to eat better in order to improve his health, but he showed up at the workshop because he wanted a better life. And the teacher said to him without making any changes while you're eating the food, wherever you're getting it from, whether it's from the garbage dump or somebody's handing it to you, you say a blessing and you thank you give thanks for the food and you bless the food and then you eat it and then, okay, so this is a crazy story, but a year later, of course he shows up again, right? And the teacher sees him, he walks up to her, same tattered clothes, but she said I couldn't recognize him because he had changed so much. He looked so healthy. You would have thought that he was, he had changed his diet completely, that he found a job, a place to stay, and now he's eating amazing food. And. That was not the case at all. He was still eating from the garbage dump, but he was giving blessings to his food. And he was, and I'm not saying we shouldn't help people who are in bad situations. I'm not saying that at all. I'm just saying like what you're saying, the choice sometimes is more subtle. in this man's case, his choice was to give blessing to what he had. And it changed his health status without anything else in his life changing. And it's, I think it's just important for us to recognize that, like you were saying not everybody has the same range of choices and options that we would love for them to have. In today's society, the way that it is right now,

Yeah, it makes me think of there. There's this book. I read a few years ago called Finite and Infinite Games and when I first read the book, I was like, oh I don't know if I agree with any of this because it was but it was such a fun read because I really didn't agree with it, and you know when you're like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, it's like eating broccoli if you don't like broccoli I'm gonna expose myself to something that I'm not that it's not in my wheelhouse or I don't understand or quite agree with it right away. But the whole theory, or the whole premise of the book is that everything is a game. Some games are finite, like a game of chess, or a game of HODL UP and then other games are infinite. So it's playing make believe, or Dungeons and Dragons, or something like that. And he, or the author of the book, was basically saying you choose the game that you play. And you might not choose the rules if you're playing with other people, but you fundamentally the main thing that people have is choice. You might have a lot of choice or you might have a little choice depending on what your background is. I think the thing that was controversial for me is that he was saying you can choose to be a mom or you can choose to be. And I was like biologically, no, you either did that thing or you didn't do that thing or you have a kid or you don't have a kid. But the concept was just like, even in, in a situation where you don't feel like you have any control or autonomy, you can find something to choose on your own. So the anecdote you gave about a man choosing to bless his food. And how that impacted his lived experience yeah, and I also think that framework has stuck with me so much because it also helps me understand oh, if I disagree with somebody or if I don't. If somebody's doing something that I really can't understand, sometimes it helps me just think what's the game that they're trying to play? And how is that different than the game that I'm trying to play? And maybe, as maybe it's okay that we just live on the same earth, and we are consuming the same resources, and we're occupying the same air, and we play different games, and we don't need to be playing the same game. If you have a chance to check it out, it's not a very long book, but it was definitely a mind bender in that it helped me really understand or gave me a tool to help understand when I strongly disagreed with somebody or strongly felt differently than somebody else. Just going back to thinking, okay, they're probably playing a different game than I am or they probably have a different understanding of the rules. Something like that.

I'm going to connect that to parenting just a little bit because Scott and I just did our episode on homeschooling and you have a toddler and it just, I love that framework because in my mind, I, I frame it as be careful of what you're assuming when you discipline your child, right? Because If you assume your child is willfully resisting your instruction, you're going to have one set of reaction. But if you assume that your child simply just did not understand the instruction, you will have a different way of reacting. And so going back to what you're saying about playing the different, the games, like what, if you have a two year old and you said, don't touch that. And the child touches that, what game is the child playing that is different from the game you are playing,

That's totally right. And I also think you're assuming did they remember that you said that earlier? And they probably didn't. And did they have the same lived experience that you did? Probably not. You're telling them don't open the oven because you know the oven is hot. For them, it's oh, this is a door. I'm just going to see, peek what's inside. Yeah, it is. It is a a trip, but I use that all the time, just thinking about is this a finite game or is an infinite game? And what game are we playing together? We first met at Bitcoin Park, I I maybe don't want to get ahead of our conversation, but just like I was going into that community, very much feeling like an outsider, feeling like an observer, and I almost was like, okay, am I gonna, how am I gonna present myself am I just a person, or do I tell people that I've worked at other ecosystems, is that gonna make people feel some kind of ways, and all of, anytime you feel yourself posturing, or charading or being, trying to think about, how to present yourself, it is, In a sense, like you're playing a game or you're trying to figure out what the rules of the game are so that you can be successful in whatever interaction. I think about that all the time.

Yeah. Bitcoin park, I think for a woman, especially coming alone, like you didn't come with a friend or a partner or something to come in alone you really have to observe to figure out how to, make your way into a group of people having a conversation, who's sitting by themselves and it is a strategic thing.

Yeah and I'll say I I didn't go alone because I was like, I'm going to bring a friend of mine and she's actually been on the podcast as well. I brought my friend Marina and I was like, you need to come with me. I feel like we we are stronger together and it's not out of fear. It's more just this is unknown and having a sounding board to just be like, okay, what was interesting to you about this? Or can I ask you a dumb question? Did you get what they were talking about? I didn't get it at all. So yeah, I, Having friends who know you and then understanding together, like, all right, this is the lay of the land is yeah, it was definitely a fun weekend and I had a great time. But I definitely appreciated having a buddy there who at least could help orient the, all the different navigate all the different opportunities or all the different topics that came up. So yeah.

Yeah, I'm really glad you brought her too, it was so nice to meet the two of you. And I think when we met, was it in March? Or April, I don't remember now. It was a few months ago,

It was in the spring. Yeah.

yeah, and Scott and I were really new to the space and we were trying to figure out where we fit in. I'm so glad we met you. So let's hop right into talking about Bitcoin then. How did you come across this weird thing called Bitcoin?

Yeah. So I guess I had heard about it, maybe tangentially, but the real beginning for me was I was in grad school. I was in business school at NYU and I signed up for a digital currency class. This was around 2017, 2018. And that was really it for me. It was such a cool opportunity. We had speakers come in from all different backgrounds. I sat in the front row. I was like Johnny on the spot, did all the readings, did all the homework. I've never been that diligent of a student in my life, but I just found the topic really interesting and I feel really fortunate that my exposure to the technology was in a very guided classroom setting. I feel like a lot of folks are self taught and so they discover this or hear about it at a cocktail party and then they go into the big great unknown or the internet and then just try to piece together what sources should I trust. I had a syllabus and I had readings One of the people who came to speak at our class, his name is Scott Stornetta and he's cited in the original Bitcoin whitepaper, his timelock hash algorithm is part of what inspired the whitepaper. So just having that I feel like I got a good mix of cypherpunk history, just enough about how the technology works under the hood, and then finance, those are, I think, the holy trinity of things that are important to understand in order to understand or put into context, how this technology works. And then for that class We had to do a final research paper, and I chose to do a report on crypto adoption in Venezuela, which is where my family is originally from, and in the process of doing that research paper, it really helped me see what was The multiple sides, multiple perspectives as it relates to this technology. So got to interview Bitcoin miners in Venezuela around 2017, 2018 and just hearing their stories about how this really was life changing or a meaningful kind of lifeboat or escape hatch for hyperinflation and I think those narratives are very common now, but hearing it directly from somebody who actually lived it, it was really transformative and powerful for me. And then on the other side, you definitely hear about predatory projects that are marketing financial tools to communities that have limited financial literacy. And that's not just projects not associated with Bitcoin that is included. That's the whole industry. Bitcoin included. And so I think being able to see okay, this is a tool and people are going to use that tool, however, for good or for not good reasons, I think was the best launching point for me to decide I'm passionate about this technology. I want to dedicate the rest of my career to this. And I'm not a blind acolyte, I want to be, ingesting this information in a thoughtful and balanced way, and I want to be able to speak truth to power and not be afraid to ask difficult questions. So That was my very beginning. And then when I graduated, I've worked in a few different protocols in the last five or so years, gosh, it feels like a long time. So yeah, I've worked in the Ethereum ecosystem. I worked in Zcash for a little bit, and now I'm at a developer tooling company that does developer tools for Bitcoin layers, stacks specifically, but other Bitcoin projects as well, like Ordinals.

So I'm curious why you were so passionate about learning about cryptocurrency in the first place that you would sit in the front of the room and do all the homework

Yeah, I'll start by saying my life before business school, I worked in a non profit public media. So I worked at an NPR PBS affiliate station and like Sesame Street. That's my jam. That is very near and dear to my heart. And I think I've always just been like drawn to the idea of public goods And this it may be a little bit more on the granola side of things like just shared resources. Why can't we all just get along? And then I went to business school thinking okay, I'm gonna work at a big bad cable company. I'm gonna make some money. I'm tired of the nonprofit life and for better, for worse, just the kind of traditional industries were not that inspiring to me. So it just seemed oh, okay, the media business models are based on advertising or subscription models. And those don't seem like they're adding a whole lot of good in the world. And then if you look on the financial side of things, like maybe working at a CPG or consumer packaged good I think there are ways in which that can be a very meaningful career for folks, but it just didn't resonate for me. And then I learned about crypto or blockchain or Bitcoin or whatever the word is that, that resonates the most with an individual that I learned about. And I was like, here's something that's totally different. It's just way out of left field. It's never been done before. And then I think for me, the thing that really got me is that. at its core, this technology is just really good at getting people to agree with one another. It's a consensus building mechanism. So with Bitcoin, you're creating a financial incentive for everyone to have the same proof or ledger, like the same shared history. So like we all agree that you have 5 in your wallet. I have 2 in my wallet, or we all agree that this transaction happened here. And the way that we reward every new transaction added to the chain is with 6. 25 Bitcoin for every block, That idea was really compelling for me. And one thing that I think about a lot is So if you look at the whole arc of human history, and this is where I get a little too liberal artsy, but if you'll humor me if you look at the whole arc of human history, and you look at the greatest wonders of the world, you have things like the Great Wall of China, the Pyramids of Giza, and so on. Most of those human accomplishments were made under coercion. People were forced to build those things. The cool thing about the internet and as an extension, the money of the internet, which is Bitcoin. And then there's also other types of projects. But the cool thing about the internet in general is that it's pretty much a voluntary participation. People decide to interact with a network. People decide to maintain the security of the network. And just the fact that it's a consensus mechanism that's completely voluntary. and yet very resilient and very secure and very powerful. I feel like that's where it got me hooked.

Yeah, that is so cool. It's amazing that you had that opportunity and you took it by the horns. And now I just want to ask you to share a little bit more about that thesis paper you wrote. You went into a little bit about the Bitcoin miners. What else you discover in the process of doing that paper?

Yeah, so for folks who might not be as familiar with the Venezuelan kind of narrative, Venezuela for most of the 20th century was the most wealthy country in Latin America and is an oil country by and large. So in the 50s and 60s, a lot of Venezuelan wealth came from oil and that continued until today. And so when my parents were growing up, Venezuela was like this. It was almost like a mythical land of just so much prosperity so much goodness. So many amazing things. And then When I was growing up, we would go there every summer and even during Christmas vacations or holiday vacations and just being able to see yeah, how cool of a country it was or how cool it was to grow up in Venezuela, had very high literacy rates, the population regardless of socioeconomic background, was largely educated or largely had access to public resources or good public infrastructure. And then that changed in 1999 2000. Hugo Chavez came was elected president and that began a history of decline in the country. Okay, so there's a little bit of background for folks who have never heard about Venezuela. That's Basically 1960s to 2000. And then, so what made Venezuela this perfect storm for crypto adoption in basically 2012, 20, 2012 to 2016, 17 is that because it's an oil country electricity and power was virtually free. And so it became a very desirable place or very affordable place to mine Bitcoin and that's coupled with the fact that after a few, almost a decade under Chavez and then his predecessor, his successor Maduro The money was mismanaged. It went into a financial crisis a few times, but 2015, 2016 was one of the worst financial crises of the country in recent memory, and it was coupled with a humanitarian crisis. There wasn't enough food in the country. It was really, really bad. So it motivated a lot of people um, to start adopting alternative forms like cryptocurrencies is basically the way to go. So in researching this paper, I spoke with a few Bitcoin miners, and then I spoke with a few cryptocurrencies, Dash was one of the projects at the time that was one of the narratives was if crypto is going to take off or if Bitcoin is going to take off, it's going to take off in a country like Venezuela. And it's a slightly different narrative that you see today in oh we want to create a circular economy where people could just use Bitcoin, like El Salvador, that is, is a totally different approach, but it's I don't know how to explain it maybe a similar desire of we want to see this technology get adopted as a means of exchange or as the preferred form of money. In Venezuela, it was against a backdrop of There's a huge financial crisis and humanitarian crisis that's motivating people to find an alternative and today It's more like there are folks who just want to experiment or create something new or something different So that's my kind of naive observation But in doing the research paper speaking with people who were mining firsthand and then speaking with just people who were interacting with or discovering the different technologies or the different currencies. One of the things that really struck me is something we talked about early in our conversation, the importance of having perspective. So I come from the United States in my mind if you work with the government is bad, like Chavez and Maduro evil people, horrible. They're the reason we are in a humanitarian and financial crisis, so you're not supposed to talk to 'em ever. And then some of the people I spoke with were like, it's not that clear cut like the government is definitely not great. It's definitely bad. And yet. If you want to have access to a cryptocurrency conference, that's going to be put on by the government, or government people will be there, so you can't, you don't have the luxury of deciding to write people off the country is not that big, the community is not that big, so you will be rubbing elbows with folks who you might find otherwise very unsavory, and It was just interesting, because I feel like if you're from the outside looking in, it's very easy to make things black and white. And then when you talk to people who are on the ground, everything seems gray. well, How do you like Dash versus Bitcoin? Or how do you decide if you work with the government or against the government? That to me was just a huge can of worms that I wasn't anticipating I thought it was just going to be a fun little interview where people were telling about how fun Bitcoin is and really it became a way to talk about even other experiences like I'm an American a Venezuelan American but culturally and identity by most of my experience is American and so Being able to connect with Venezuelans in a way that I hadn't before was yeah, it was really a huge, for me, a huge outcome of doing that research and at the time it was almost a meme in cryptocurrency or blockchain Bitcoin industry, like, if you went to a conference in 2016, 2017, 2018, every single panel would mention hyperinflation, like in Venezuela, it was just a standard use case that people referred to and I found it to be pretty powerful to really understand that most folks Who were referring to that had never spoken to someone from Venezuela. And I think that is something that I've been refer back to throughout, in all of my professional experiences. If we're going to talk about remittances, somebody in the room needs to have sent a remittance before. Otherwise, if you've never experienced the problem yourself, how are you going to build an effective product to solve that problem? So that was another big learning or big takeaway for me as a result of that research paper.

I think you're so right in that like we were talking about before there's always two sides of the coins and it's so easy for us to stand on one side and go that's the right way to look at it, but for people looking at it from the other side, they see a completely different image. Interesting. So what would you say so that was 2016 to 2018. What is it like now, if you were to reference Venezuela and the use of Bitcoin, how would you frame that now?

I think the way I feel most comfortable framing it is I don't know, I haven't at the point of time doing that research I was speaking with 20 people and reading papers then double checking across referencing sources. I firmly believe that if you don't do that level of attention to research. You don't really know. Anything you say is it has to be taken with a grain of salt. My anecdotal experience is that the situation in Venezuela is not as dire as it was in 2016, 2017, from a financial and humanitarian perspective. It's still really bad, but it's not as bad as it was in 2016. And so the strong need for an alternative like Bitcoin. What that need was stronger in 2016 than it is maybe today, although there are still an active community of people who are thinking about and exploring digital currencies Bitcoin adoption in Venezuela. One big challenge though, is that the Maduro government, if I recall correctly, started cracking down on Bitcoin mining and you had to register your miner, you have to register as a miner with the government, and then the government, there are anecdotes of the government going to your house and seizing your property and stuff like that. The last I heard of that was around 2020. And so I'm not sure, what the situation is like today. I follow a bunch of Venezuelans on Twitter who are active Bitcoiners, active in the cryptocurrency. Mostly Bitcoiners, to be honest. And I think somebody I was Following his name is Javier Bastardo. He posted just the other day, there's a Venezuelan prison that burned down and there were Bitcoin ASIC miners, in the prison, and so not that I I share that data point because it's what, but I don't have any conclusions to draw from that. Does that mean that people who were wrongfully incarcerated had had a way of. Generating income while they were incarcerated or does that mean real quote unquote bad guys were using Bitcoin? Who knows it just shows you that there is a level of penetration adoption in the country that it's hard to ignore. It's hard to down credit or downplay but in terms of drawing a conclusion from that It's really hard to do. And that's where I think people who work, people who are ideologically very passionate about Bitcoin sometimes You have to fight that urge of projecting their narrative onto these are just facts people are using this technology, and then whether you want to paint it in a certain way or draw conclusions there's, it's important to be really careful because just like this this technology be used to enforce a very positive and optimistic message. Thank you. Narrative that Bitcoin is an alternative. Bitcoin is a way of escaping oppressive networks. I firmly believe that. That's why people in Russia, that's why people in People living under oppressive regimes have a strong interest in this technology. But the opposite is, can be true as well. And so just understanding how a technology can be co opted by a narrative or be co opted by a special interest. Yeah, I'm rambling a little bit right now, but I feel there's a lot of There's so many different perspectives that I think are important to mention, especially as people are first starting to get into this technology or into this industry. A lot of times you ask yourself what am I supposed to think? What is the truth? And it's just really hard to pick one truth. So yeah.

Yeah, I really appreciate your perspective because you're right it something can always be used for good And for evil by different people and different intentions, if you don't mind, I'd love to ask you about your parents, because you mentioned that they were the odd ones that left Venezuela to come to the United States. And then while they were here, that's when you had Chavez go into power. And then the decline that started, how do they feel about what's happening in reference to this new technology? Bitcoin slash cryptocurrency slash blockchain.

Yeah, so I remember when I was in grad school and I was first taking these classes I couldn't shut up about Bitcoin And I couldn't shut up about this blockchain stuff. And maybe people maybe you Tali can resonate. When coin price is up, everybody's asking you Hey, I heard you were into this. Can you tell me what's it about? Is it really real? When the coin price is down, nobody wants to ask you about it. The way my parents reacted when I first started to ask my family because at first I asked my family hey Do you know anybody who's mining crypto or do you know anybody who's mining Bitcoin? I'm doing a research paper and I want to learn more They were very skeptical. They're like this sounds Weird and different and I'm unfamiliar I think that The main thing is just I have been pretty I've had a conviction that this is the industry that I want to work in, and I've been pretty steadfast in that I have worked in it for a few years, I've worked at a few different companies, and so I think now my parents really see this as this is a new technology, and we don't know that much about it but there it is In terms of how this technology, or Bitcoin in particular, relates to Venezuela today I don't want to speak for my parents, but my impression is that Venezuela just has bigger problems. And the problems are this just truly heartbreaking collapse of a country, of an economy And a huge diaspora of people who have had to leave their country. I think when at least I talk to my parents and my family about Venezuela, that's what we talk about. And the, this interesting technology that happens to be part of my day to day work is the footnote. But the bigger story is what happened to this country and how can we what is, what does this look for my kid's generation or for the next generation? It has helped me understand, like learning more about Bitcoin and learning has helped me just learn more about how money works and that money is in and of itself a technology. So that's informed a lot of the ways I think about and talk about money in general. But I, yeah, I feel like the bigger narrative around Venezuela in particular is just there's clearly a bigger issue here and that issue is harder to define, harder to solve, harder to talk about. If it was as simple as man, fix the money. So I feel like that's a Bitcoiner adage, fix the money, save the world. If it was that simple I think that would be an awesome circumstance, but I just suspect that it's more complicated than that, and being honest about that is, is at least in the case of Venezuela, is probably, yeah, that's been the most consistent way that I've heard it talked about in my family.

Yeah. Thank you so much for that perspective. What would you say to women who are sitting on the fence right now about Bitcoin?

Oh man, okay, I have a bunch of little nuggets so I will list them off. And then I want to go into them one by one. But I would say that there are probably four key things that have helped me and four key things that I would really encourage women on the fence about Bitcoin to keep top of mind. The first is follow your interests. If you're interested in politics, or if you're interested in art and design, or if you're interested in in food sovereignty, or if you're interested in political ideology, chances are there is a Bitcoin connection to whatever you're passionate about, game design, chances are If you are passionate about something, somebody has put Bitcoin on it. And so the more you can follow your interests, I think the easier it is to navigate an unfamiliar technology. And the easier it is to just put it into the context that's already familiar with you. So that would be goal number one. The second one is find a friend, buddy up. My cryptocurrency or Bitcoin friends are the I cherish those friendships, and those are folks that I still call for advice, I still call for perspective hey, what do you think about this new thing? What do you think about crazy ordinals? Are we into that or are we not into that? And it's just a helpful sounding board to, I think the Twitter in particular can be really noisy, and people can feel, have very strong opinions and feelings, and people who you respect and admire can say things that you don't totally agree with. And so having somebody that you trust, that you can ask the stupid questions with, or have hot takes oh, you know what, I really didn't agree with what he said that is invaluable because it helps you also find your north. You know what, I don't really want to be, I don't really think about it this way. I prefer to think about it that way. So find your friend is the second one. Third one, probably in my mind, the most important if you're sitting on the fence about Bitcoin, it can be intimidating and you can handle it. I, I find that is to me the biggest thing to overcome. I don't have a technical background. I don't have a financial background and yet I've worked in this industry for multiple years and I feel very confident in the perspective I have now built up. But that's cause I was able to overcome this fear of the unknown or this insecurity that I'm not smart enough or I'm not good enough or whatever. If you are intimidated by dipping your toes into this pool just know that you can handle it. And it the industry or this community will be so much better off with you in it. And once you overcome that fear, there's so many other doors that will be open to you. I feel like that's when I hear stories of other women talking about why they're so passionate about Bitcoin. A lot of times it's I got into Bitcoin and I was just interested in it and I didn't know anything about it. I overcame that fear. And now I do, and now I make smarter financial decisions for my family, or now I'm able to get out of relationships that weren't serving me or whatever, I'm able to renegotiate different boundaries. I think a lot of times that's a similar narrative arc. So it's intimidating for sure. I'm not going to say Oh yeah, it's a cakewalk. Bitcoin is super easy to understand. But you can absolutely handle it. And once you do, you'll be stronger for it and the industry will be stronger with your perspective. And then the last thing, and I'll say this for anyone who's listening who really loves being on the fence, who really likes being in the middle. You can explore this technology. And it doesn't have to be your identity, it doesn't have to be your religion, it doesn't have to be your only interest. Some folks, it is that for them, and that's very inspiring, that's very interesting it doesn't have to be that way for you. And for me, I'm very passionate and curious about multiple aspects of Bitcoin and multiple aspects of this broader industry. A lot of times I feel like folks opt out or women opt out of the Bitcoin particular conversation because they feel Oh, I'm not that intense or I'm not that committed to it. I'm not that bought in. And you don't have to be that singularly focused in order to add value to the conversation in order to participate in the conversation. So that would be my last tip.

Awesome tips. I love those tips. Thank you so much. They're so thoughtful. You've just been absolutely amazing. Thank you so much for sharing your story and your perspectives. I'm so glad you came on Orange Hatter.

Thank you for having me Tali and I cannot wait to listen to future episodes. So I'll stay tuned.

Thank you for listening to this episode. Did you enjoy it? Wasn't our guest absolutely fabulous. I just love every woman's story on this show. Everybody has a unique perspective and yet, we all come to the same place, which is Bitcoin is an important part of our lives. If this story has inspired you and you would like to know more, go to www.orangehatter.com. Get involved. Join and our reading group, send me an email and introduce yourself. I will be so happy to hear from you. The best way you can support this show is to spread the word Tell every woman, you know, to listen in. You never know how they will be impacted by these stories. I appreciate you so much. See you next time. Bye.