Hi, and welcome to the Animal Welfare Junction. This is your host, Dr. G, and our music is written and produced by Mike Sullivan. Today's guest is Mark Finneran, the Ohio State Director for the Humane Society of the United States. Welcome to the Junction, Mark.

Thank you so much, Dr. G. I'm very excited to be here. Appreciate you having me on.

Oh, I'm glad that you're here to talk about, especially to talk about this important topic. But before we get into the nitty gritty, how about you let our listeners know about your background? What your experiences have been and what has brought you to the position where you are today?

Absolutely. Yeah. So as you said, I'm the Ohio State Director for the Humane Society of the United States. But my background really is in policy, state government and politics, right? When I was in college, I was a political science major here at Ohio State and thought I wanted to go into campaigns and that world, uh, worked on a couple of statewide campaigns here in Ohio. And then transitioned to working as a legislative aide in the Statehouse. And I think it was really that experience. I mean, I always considered myself to be an animal lover growing up, but maybe not an animal advocate to the extent I am today. And it was my experience working at the Statehouse around public policy in a variety of policy areas, from education to healthcare. One of my big takeaways from that was, you know, if you don't advocate for yourself, nobody else is going to advocate for you, right? And so for animals, they're always at a disadvantage because they cannot stand up and speak for themselves, right? So we are so lucky to have organizations like the Humane Society of the United States and others, and of course the generous people that support those organizations. To allow animal welfare to be represented at the negotiating table when public policy is made because it's so important, you know, again, every other interest is in there, um, negotiating to make sure that they are benefiting from whatever laws being passed. Nobody's going to speak up and say, well, what about how's this going to affect the beavers? Right? Unless somebody is sitting at that table and and bring that bring that point up. So. That's kind of my role, um, as the State Director for the Humane Society of the United States. Primarily, I'm a lobbyist. I'm at the State House working with legislators. Policymakers, um, legislative staff, to try to make sure that we can pass legislation that helps animals and prevent bad bills that's going to impact animals in some way, right? And that is related to, um, companion animals, cats and dogs, but we also work on wildlife issues, farm animal work. everything in between. If it impacts animals and it's related to public policy, we work on it. Um, I do that both at the state level and locally. We also have a federal team in D. C. that's focused on, um, federal lobbying.

And it is so important because I've always been like, you know, the kind of person that is like, I hate politics, I hate law, I hate all this stuff. And then as I have worked more with animals, especially with animal neglect and cruelty cases and that kind of stuff, I have seen the importance of the need. of advocating at those levels, you know, like me helping an animal helps that animal, but me helping advocate at that level then helps many animals, right?

That's exactly right. I mean, I always tell people, I don't blame you, you know, if you're jaded on politics, right? But no matter what you're working on, um, public policy and politics has got to come into play at some point, right? So you might as well be engaged. You might as well pay attention. Um, and you're, you're absolutely spot on with your point. Um, You know, anybody who works with direct service for animals as a veterinarian or with a rescue or humane society, I think it's natural to feel frustration of like, you know, we're doing the best we can for the animals that come in the door. But why do they keep coming in the door for the same reasons? Right? And that's what policy hopefully begins to address is those root causes that can help lead to better outcomes and, you know, make things better for the folks that are providing service for animals on the ground.

And as I'm learning little by little, it is frustrating because things don't always go your way and it's really easy to think, well, I'm just going to give up because clearly nobody's listening. But I have also learned the importance of continuing and this actually case that we're going to be talking about is, goes to that point of, you know, things don't always go the right way, but then we just keep fighting to, to, you know, make something happen.

Yeah, you know, you're exactly right. It can be very frustrating and you never know, though, what's going to turn the tide and when you're going to have an opportunity to really make a difference. So it's just continuing on and looking for those opportunities that might be unexpected, but can be really impactful.

So talking about this issue with the puppy mills, I don't know that all of our listeners are aware of what the problem with puppy mills is and then leading to what we're going to be talking about. So can you give a little bit of background on history on this issue?

Yeah. So I, I think a good place to start is kind of, you know, what is a puppy mill, right? That's a question I get from legislators and the public all the time. And the truth is, it's in the eye of the beholder, right? Because to some people, any large scale dog breeder, is a puppy mill, um, just inherently because once you get to a certain number of dogs, you know, you can't, you can't name all 1000, all 1000 puppies in your, your large scale breeding operation, right? And over time, these dogs just become numbers on a spreadsheet means to an end, a unit for sale. For HSUS, especially when we look at puppy mills, It's a large scale breeder that is clearly cutting corners that is sacrificing the health and welfare of the dogs under their care in order to maximize their profit, right? And unfortunately, we see that quite often, both in Ohio and other states across the country. And historically Ohio is a state that has a lot of dog breeding operations in general and with that comes these puppy mills, right? So that's been a historical challenge for us as a state and as time has gone on we've tried various means to kind of reign the puppy mill industry in, but progress has been slow and as we'll talk about today, you know, we're still fighting this battle, right? So for a little bit of background, uh, In 2018, the state of Ohio enacted a law that put into law standards of care that commercially licensed breeders in the state have to follow. And this is really just the basics. It's access to clean food and water. It's an hour of socialization or outdoor time a day. It's the things that you and I would consider to be the bare minimum for any dog or puppy, right? But unfortunately, we've seen breeders time and time again failing to meet even these modest standards. And one of the great things that has come out of this, um, this law in Ohio is the fact that we do have inspectors on the ground that are actually going in and inspecting commercially licensed breeders. And, you know, we have, there's ways that that system could be improved. We only have five inspectors for the entire state of Ohio, which is not enough. But by and large, I think the inspectors themselves do a pretty decent job of getting out to these facilities and documenting violations. The problem we're seeing is that the enforcement on the back end, um, it's just not up to snuff, right? And that's what we're going to talk about today.

So, I mean, realistically, what's going to be the difference between a puppy mill and an exploiter hoarder? Like, is there any, any difference, right?

Yeah. So, you know, a puppy mill is a business, right? They're in it for the profit and, you know, make no mistake, they're, they're doing pretty well for themselves. I mean, You know, these individual puppies, if you're selling them direct to a consumer, they can be sold for thousands of dollars a piece. And so it has become big business over time. These operations have become pretty built up and industrialized in a way that has had You know, some good things have come with that, right? Like we've seen some improvement in the 10 years or so that we've had inspections at commercial dog breeders. I think the baseline standard of care has gotten a little bit better, but at the same time, you know, it does become more of an industry where these dogs are just a means to an end and a way to make money.

And what are going to be the main problems that you find? With, like, the health issues and conditions of these dogs in puppy mills.

Yeah, so it really does start with the basics. Dogs being kept in wire cages that are not great for their paws, as you know. Dogs in cages that are simply not being cleaned. Dogs that don't have access to clean food and water. Um, beyond that, what we've seen, especially in the past year, There have been a lot of issues with breeders that are doing their own tail docking and dewclaw removal surgeries, right? And that was a big battle here at the statehouse because under, in the Ohio revised code, it says all surgical procedures must be performed by a veterinarian. Somehow that has been interpreted in a way that allows breeders, you know, legally, under law, under administrative code, To do their own procedures specifically for tail docking and do car removal because those are considered cosmetic surgeries. As you can imagine, as a veterinarian, I'm sure you know this very well, you know, these are not procedures that laypeople are necessarily qualified to do. And right now, all the licensed breeders need is just an instruction manual from their attending vet on how to do this stuff, right? Unfortunately, and this is no surprise, but it is tragic, in 2023, we saw a ton of stories of breeders using toenail clippers, You know, hoof pick, trimmers, stuff, anything, you know, that you can imagine to do these tail docking and dewclaw removal surgeries, um, with the consequences that you would think, think to follow. So it really is all over the board. I know the Ohio Department of Agriculture, who administers this program, they say the most common violation that they find is is just not getting a physical from other dogs, you know, after they've been bred one time before they're bred the next time. And so nobody's even getting eyes or hands on these dogs in between breeding cycles, which is incredibly concerning.

One of the issues that I have with this, I mean, I have issues with the whole thing, right? But with the whole calling it, not a surgery because it's cosmetic. I mean, if we look at it from the human medicine perspective, a facelift is cosmetic. However, a facelift needs to be done by a licensed medical professional. And so, you know, just, just saying, well, it's just cosmetic. It's not surgery. You're still cutting through skin. You're still cutting through bone. You're still doing things that are surgical. You know, in nature.

Yeah. I mean, your, your vet techs can't even do a tail dock or dewclaw removal, right?

Yeah, that's correct. And veterinary technicians have to go through school and they get an associate's degree. So it's not like a veterinary technician is just somebody that you pick off the street and you just train them how to, you know, hold animals and play with puppies all day. These are people that are trained in anesthesia, in surgeries. Like there are some surgical procedures that they're allowed to do. And yet this so called simple cosmetic procedure. If they do it, they can lose their license.

Exactly, and all a breeder needs to do is go to, go to ODA, apply for a commercial breeding license and somehow they're qualified to do surgeries that vet techs who, like you said, have dedicated, you know, time and schooling to the care of animals themselves are not licensed to do. It really is, uh, kind of unbelievable to me that that's where we're at here in Ohio.

Yeah, no, it's really, and then the problems that I have with this so called instruction manual. First of all, you can just. It's not cookbook, you know, like they're not, it's not a recipe to follow, but the, these instruction manuals allegedly give the commercial breeders how to do the procedure and then how to administer proper analgesia, how to, how to do proper sedation, antibiotics and that kind of stuff. But. How are they supposed to do these things when they don't have access to any of these things because they're not medical professionals?

It reminds me of like when you have a project around the house and you go to YouTube and you just like type in, you know, how to change a light bulb or whatever, but it's surgery on an animal. It's, it's incredible to me that, um, yeah, that's kind of where we're, we've landed on this issue where, It's actually legal for them to do this stuff, and the only time they get in trouble is when they use these outrageous tools, um, like toenail clippers that are not actually approved for them to be doing these surgeries.

And one of the things, you know, is the fact that, okay, well, they may be allowed under these rules. However, what they're doing is in essence illegal, if they cause harm to the animal, then they can be prosecuted for animal cruelty. So it just seems like contradictory laws.

Yeah, you know, you're right. Um, that's the argument we tried to make in front of the Joint Committee on Agency Rule Review that ultimately approved the rule that allows breeders to do this stuff. Um, and to be honest, it's still something that. I spent some time thinking about of how we got to this point where a law that says surgeries shall be performed by a veterinarian to carving out two specific procedures, you know, do tail docking and do call removal. Those words do not appear anywhere in state law, right? They were arbitrarily cut out and given to the breeders to allow them to do this. Another counterexample here is ear cropping, right? That's a cosmetic procedure. That is not allowed under this rule, but, but that to me, that's completely an arbitrary district distinction. I mean, ear cropping is just, I guess, considered to be a bit more painful or difficult to do, but those same things apply to tail docking and dewclaw removal.

Yeah, just because something may be less difficult doesn't mean that it's not. Plus the, I mean, one of the reasons why some veterinarians and groups fight technicians being able to do certain procedures is not because of the procedure itself, but because of the potential complications. What if something happens? What if the animal goes into arrest? What if additional drugs are needed? Where if there's a reaction? So, you know, there are reasons behind it for not allowing Any procedure really to be done.

So we've seen the tragic outcomes that can happen when breeders are doing their own surgeries. Right? In 2020, a dog actually died at a licensed breeding facility after a breeder did an in house dental cleaning. Right? And we'll never know exactly what happened in that situation that led to that dog's death. Mhm. But it speaks to exactly what you were just talking about. You need a veterinarian on hand to deal with unexpected outcomes. Things happen when you're doing surgery on animals.

Yeah. And then with the rules, as far as, you know, the visits, you know, how the amount of time in between visits and that kind of stuff, realistically, if one of these breeders does a procedure, a botched procedure, and something happens to the dog, nobody's going to know about it.

That's one of the big concerns. Uh, and we hear this from rescues and humane societies that take in dogs from puppy mills, right? There's ways for breeders. If they have a dog that they don't want inspectors to see, they can get it off site, and it will never really appear on the record. It will never be seen by a state inspector, right? And the reality is there's groups that are just being inundated with calls from the same breeders week after week after week. You need to take this dog. You need to take this litter that I wasn't able to sell. And that's a, you know, Another huge piece of this puzzle that I think, you know, when people think about puppy mills and why they're wrong, of course we start with the dogs at these facilities, but it's the trickle down effects on the entire animal welfare community that is just devastating with puppy mills that sometimes I think goes underreported.

Yeah, and it can be so costly because The rescue groups that we work with that are constantly getting animals from puppy mills, it's not like they're bringing us a dog that only needs spayed and neutered and gone. They often need really extensive procedures. They come in with what we consider trash mouth, right? Like they need multiple extractions, antibiotics, pain medication. They have mammary tumors. They have other problems secondary to the negligence that they suffered through. So instead of these rescue, you know, a lot of people say, well, why should a rescue charge 300 for an adoption, 500 for an adoption? Well, because sometimes they're paying up to 800, a thousand dollars just to get these dogs into good enough condition to be able to be adopted.

Exactly. A lot of times rescues are taking a financial loss when they take in puppy mill dogs because of the veterinary care that's required. And there's that side. And then there's the behavioral side. You hear all the time about dogs that are just emotionally shut down because they've never been socialized. They've never been anything more than just like a breeding dog. Right. And so it's both the medical side, the behavioral side. to get an animal to the point where it's ready to kind of start that new life, to join a new family and have a happy ending. And it can be so taxing for not only the animals, but also these rescues. And then, you know, an hour later, they get another call about another dog that's getting dumped. And I don't blame them for being overwhelmed because it does feel like. You know, it's just like a nonstop, um, assault of, of dumped dogs from puppy mills.

Yeah. And then sometimes they, they won't dump only to the rescues, right? Like they do these, these auctions to get rid of animals to just unsuspecting people or, or even other breeders that want to just exploit them more, you know, to the end that they can.

It can be a very ugly industry. And, you know, when you said, talk about unsuspecting consumers, nobody goes out there trying to buy a puppy mill dog. Right. And nobody advertises a puppy mill dog. So ultimately, you know, every consumer that is buying one of these puppies, um, coming from these puppy mills, you know, they're, they're victims in this whole situation as well, because. You know, there's ways to do due diligence as a consumer, but it can be difficult, especially when you're being told, Oh, this is a licensed, inspected facility. You know, you have faith that that really means something about the quality of where this is coming from. And one of the arguments we've made to regulators and network makers is it should mean something when a breeder is licensed by the state of Ohio. But right now, You know, it doesn't matter what you do because you'll continue to get licensed year after year after year.

Yeah, and that is a really important point because as you said, nobody wants a dog from a puppy mill. Many people say, I don't support puppy mills. And if you say, Oh, this dog was from a puppy mill, you always get that reaction of, Oh my God, poor dog. Yeah. They suck. They're horrible. But these are the same people that are going to pet stores and buying dogs that are coming from puppy mills because the people selling them the the dogs are. The first question that the person will say is. Is this dog from a puppy mill? And then they're told, no, it's not from a puppy mill. And then the, the consumer is like, oh, okay. Thank God, because I want to make sure that I'm not supporting puppy mills and yet they are.

And that question usually comes after the consumer has kind of fallen in love with that puppy. Right. And so when you're told no, no, mom and mom and dad are, you know, home on the farm and they're happy and they're running around, you want to believe that because this is your new family member that you're excited to welcome in, um, and have become part of your family. So there's kind of this, you know, I think it's the reason we see scams happening in the puppy industry in general. Like you hear about people buying dogs online that, that never exists, right? These are inherently, on some level, an emotional decision to add a member to your family, add a companion animal that's going to be living with you for hopefully a decade plus. It's not like buying a refrigerator, right? So we need to have protections for both animals and consumers to make sure they're not being ripped off.

Yeah, and you know, as a forensic veterinarian, I have evaluated some cases of, of neglect by, by pet stores and by the breeders that are selling them. And I am seeing records of, yeah, USDA inspection was good, but then I'm looking further in into their state inspections, and I'm seeing lots and lots of complaints from the state inspection. So there's a little bit of a disconnect sometimes between the USDA inspection and the, and the local inspections.

That is true, and it's a trend we've seen as well. And it can happen both ways, where the state records will be clean, but on the USDA inspections, you'll see very concerning violations. And And then it happens vice versa where USDA inspections come back clean, but the state is documenting issue after issue after issue. And part of that comes down to there are different standards that they're kind of that their inspectors are looking for. But, you know, to me, it does speak to the value. of having multiple levels of oversight, right? Because even with USDA and ODA inspectors, we know puppy mills are still slipping through the cracks, but at least we have a little bit more insight into the problem we need to solve because of these state inspections, right? And that's always the first step to solving any problem. You have to know what you're dealing with. Um, so at least we've, we're kind of getting there. Now, how the question is, how do we actually solve this problem and end puppy mills?

So tell our listeners about this letter to Dewine. Like, what was the purpose behind it? And what do, what do you hope to gain from it?

Yeah, so the Ohio Department of Agriculture is a state agency that does a bunch of different stuff, right? But one of the programs they have is this, um, commercial dog breeding oversight. And we've been working with them ever since the law was put into place for these inspections and for these standards of care to fully enforce the laws that we have on the books. And that's always the challenge with any advocacy, right? Passing a law is a huge win, but it's only going to have to battle because if a law isn't being properly and fully enforced, it doesn't really do anything for anyone. So for us, we've been working with ODA for years to try to make sure that when bad breeders, um, are popping up when serious violations happen, that there are consequences to follow that. And the law grants them a number of powers. Um, as well as obligations to stop licensing breeders that have serious violations that are actually threatening the health and welfare of the dogs under their care. And our big issue is just the fact that so far nobody's lost their license because of an animal welfare violation at a state licensed dog breeder. Despite the fact that dogs have died in breeding facilities because of things like DIY dentals. Dogs have suffered in these facilities. And so the line of what is too far for a dog breeder has never really been drawn by the state of Ohio. And the end result is that, you know, word gets around within the breeding community about this stuff, right? And so Ohio has sent the message. We are open for business to puppy mills, whether it's intentional or not, that's the message we're sending to the breeding community. So for us, having worked with ODA for years and not gotten the results we wanted to see, ultimately, they answer up to Governor DeWine, just like any other state cabinet agency, right? He appoints their director, and he has broad authority to kind of direct what they're doing. Governor DeWine, um, you know, doesn't have a track record on this issue specifically either way, right? He hasn't talked a lot about it. I know he has a rescue dog at home. Um, so we're very hopeful that if he takes an interest in this, if he takes action and puts pressure on ODA to fully enforce their laws, that could completely change the game, um, for how we're enforcing these laws here in Ohio, and at least get rid of what we call the low hanging fruit in the puppy mill industry, right? The egregious violators that appear on lists like the horrible hundred. year after year after year, those people do not deserve to be licensed as commercial dog breeders in the state of Ohio. And that's true from an animal welfare perspective, but also a perspective of just our reputation as a state is on the line with this stuff. We are well known as one of the worst puppy mill states in the country, and we need to take steps to sort of rectify that and fix our reputation nationwide.

Yeah, I mean, we're, we're number two, right? Reg number two as far as the worst state for puppy mills.

Exactly. So on this year's Horrible 100 report, which is a list of a hundred known bad breeders and dog brokers in the country that the Humane Society of the United States puts together every year, we are number two with 20 appearances out of a hundred. So one out of every five puppy mills on the Horrible 100 is unfortunately located right here in Ohio.

So this also was not just HSUS supporting this letter, like you had a huge number of, of advocacy groups, right? And how important is that to have all of this extra support to this letter?

I'm so excited and proud of the animal welfare community coming together behind this common message. It's, it is so necessary for us to speak with one voice on this issue. And yes, it was, um, 20 different organizations, humane societies, rescues, animal welfare organizations like HSUS, uh, and, and veterinarians coming together to, to deliver this message to the governor. And look, you know how hard it can be to get a coalition of 20 different groups to agree on anything. Um, and this is a pretty big step for the animal welfare community to make this direct appeal to the governor. Um, so I'm just so thankful that, um, everyone has been willing to speak up on this and really come together to get this done.

And on the other side is the community can help support this. So what can the community members do?

That's absolutely essential. We need folks, if you're in Ohio, to contact the governor and ask him to take action on puppy mills. Right? We're not on an even playing field here. As I mentioned, these dog breeders can sell dogs for thousands of dollars and they are very well established as an influential lobby, um, big business that has a lot of say and a lot of power around the statehouse. And on the other side, you know, we have groups like rescues that are completely volunteer led humane societies that are completely powered by volunteers. And so we don't have the same resources. All we have is kind of like the truth and, you know, we're on the right side of this issue, but that cannot be that oftentimes that's not enough, right? So we need the public to speak out and to get involved and to let the governor know that this isn't something we're just gonna, um, sit by while Ohio continues to have puppy mills in our state.

Where can listeners go to help support this? Is there a place that they can go to be part of the petition to the governor?

There is, so on our Facebook page Humane Society of the United States, Ohio, you see, you'll see a link to our action alert where you can send an email to the governor, but you can also just go online and Google contact governor to wine and you'll see a form where you can quickly send them an email. You can call his office. And I even encourage people to write a handwritten letter, right? The old fashioned way. Yeah. That can, that can make a difference a lot of the times. When I used to work in the state legislature, letters would be few and far between, but that's something that people would read and really pay attention to. So, if you have a few minutes to, to, to jot down a letter and send it to the governor, that can be really impactful.

And, and a respectful and professional letter, right? We don't want to be Passing the governor out and saying you're not doing your effing job or whatever. Like that's not what we're looking for, right?

That is exactly right. And I appreciate you mentioning that, right? People respond well. Um, when, when you give them an opportunity to do what you're asking basically, right? And the governor truly does have a chance here to be a hero for these dogs to kind of step up in a way that many, you know, elected officials have had the chance to do and kind of passed on in the past. So You know, this is something we see that is a legacy defining issue for the governor. And if he takes this chance to be a savior for dogs and puppy mills, that's something that he should get credit for.

Yeah, I mean, everybody likes dogs and even people that don't like animals. They don't want to see the animals hurt. So you don't have to be a dog lover to not want a dog to be in these conditions, right? So it's going to be, it's going to be important for, for consumers who are voters.

And one of the things I really appreciate about this issue is that it's not ideological, right? Just like you said, everyone, there's a shared sense of respect. Um, and and love for other living creatures. And that's something that brings us together across party lines across some of the traditional divides we see on other policy issues is we can all agree that people shouldn't be hurting puppies, right? Hopefully we can all agree on that. And so again, I really see this as an opportunity for the governor to bring the state together around a good cause and and do something that we all know is right.

What would you recommend to consumers for protecting themselves from making a puppy mill purchase?

Well, the best way to avoid supporting a puppy mill is not to purchase a dog from a breeder, right? Go to your humane society, go to a rescue and find an animal that, um, you know, just needs a home. Uh, and I think the most common reason I hear that people, you know, want to go to a breeder is because they're looking for a specific type of dog, right? What I always say is, you know, you're making a 10 to 15 year. investment in this animal, you don't need to go out and get this puppy tomorrow, right? So give it some time and work with those organizations. If you go to your humane society and say, this is the kind of dog I'm looking for, they might not have it there that day, but they can help you connect you with that animal, you know, a week, a month down the line, and you'll be able to make a choice as a consumer that you really feel good about. If you are going to a dog breeder, The biggest thing that you can look for is a breeder that wants, wants you to come see the animal, see the puppy and see where it was raised, right? Invites you in to that, that environment. And then you can see firsthand, you know, what kind of environment they were raised in. And generally you want a breeder that's interested in you as a potential match for their puppy, just as interested in that as you are in the dog, right? Because the worst, one of the biggest red flags is if they want to meet you in like a Best Buy parking lot, they're just trying to make a sale. They just look at this dog as a way to make a buck. A truly responsible breeder wants to make sure these puppies that they care about and love are going to loving homes.

Yeah, I know that things that we personally recommend is going to be making sure that they have a veterinarian overseeing the, the care of the puppies and the parents that they're not just giving their own vaccines and doing their own, their own things. And then some of these more uh, responsible breeders are going to have in their contract that if there, if there is a problem with the puppy, it doesn't work out anymore to bring the puppy back. Right. So that it doesn't end up in a shelter. It doesn't end up in a bad situation.

Exactly. Yeah. And it, It always comes back to, you know, look for a breeder that cares about the puppies that they're raising. And there's so many different ways to kind of be able to pick up on that, but ultimately that's what you're looking for.

I, I like to say adopt, don't shop, but if you must shop, do it responsibly because we want to take care of the animals, right?

And that's what, you know, when you talk about like the, the puppies being sold in pet stores, that's the problem with that business model at kind of like a base level. It's impossible for a consumer to know where a dog came from when they're buying it in a pet store. Because again, you know, you can be told that they were from a licensed breeder or whatever, but you can't see that firsthand as a consumer. And so you're setting consumers up to fail when you sell them in this environment. Where it's just a puppy in a window with no context about where that dog came from, you know, any of, any of, any of its breeding conditions or anything like that.

Yeah, and again, a licensed breeder, the way that they're allowed to keep these animals is not necessarily the way that we would want to keep our pets, right? It's like, they're allowed to keep them in these small cages in these, you know, bad situations and being fed the way that they are. So yes, they are licensed, but that doesn't really mean anything.

Exactly. Being a licensed breeder should be an indicator of high quality, and that's just not the case given the way these laws are being enforced right now. And that's one of the biggest things we feel that we need to change.

Excellent. Well, hopefully with everybody coming together to work, and this is what I would consider kind of like a bipartisan type issue, but Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to always go that way, but everybody should get behind this and and do what's best and to eliminate puppy mills and do what's best for the animal.

That's our hope. This is an issue that can bring people together. And yeah, I think we're going to be okay for consumers to be able to get a dog that works for their family without these puppy mills churning out litter after litter after litter, because the reality is that's just filling up our rescues and our humane societies with dumped dogs.

Is there anything that we haven't covered that you feel that we need to bring up?

I don't think so. I just want to thank you so much for the opportunity to be on the podcast and kind of spread the word about this. Um, and that's it.

Excellent. Well, thank you so much Mark for being here and for everything that you're doing and for everybody who's listening. Thanks for listening and thank you for caring.

Thank you, Dr. G.