Paul Warloski (00:21)

Hello and welcome to the Athletes Compass Podcast, where we navigate training, fitness, and health for everyday athletes. When I worked at a gym, I knew people who went to four or five boot camp classes a week. Short, brutal, maximal effort, minimal time. Sounds efficient, right? But what if all of that high intensity work is actually hurting your progress? Is HIT really the best way to optimize your training when you're time limited? Today, we're

Talking with Paul, who wrote the book on HIT training, and we're going to talk about how much HIT is too much, what the science says, and what we as everyday athletes should do about HIT and how much we should be doing. So, Paul, give us the background a little bit. What happens physiologically when we do too much high intensity work and how do those symptoms show up in everyday athletes?

Paul Laursen (01:16)

Sure. Yeah. It's a great topic, Paul. maybe we just start with the start with the be the benefits first and you know why

Paul Warloski (01:22)

Okay.

Paul Laursen (01:22)

we're sort of all excited about this, right? Like and there's there's just this fantastic new review out of Norway that that's come out in in twenty twenty five where they the authors the you know, they they took a look at over six thousand athletes.

And, close to 500 studies, I believe, where they're analyzing HIT versus low intensity training, right? Zone two. And really just trying to figure out what is actually best at the end of the day. And you know, probably probably no surprise in why we're talking about it, but HIIT is the most potent form of exercise for a short term gain in wherever your baseline sits.

Right. And we've spoken many times about the different benefits that we get with a HIIT training session. we're gonna recruit those fast twitch muscle fibers and make them more fatigue resistant. We're gonna get a really big cardiac response and and even the mind response as well, which is going to gonna clear your mind for sure. You get that that you know, huge endorphins, it feels great.

And sure enough, like the next time you're going to be able to do a better job in the short term. Now, what the study also looked at was, across all the the the also the low intensity stuff. And the end of the day, the what was more sustainable and not eliciting a big stress response was that low intensity zone two training. And that that gets masked sometimes in the studies.

and and this is why, yes, short term you're and doing those HIIT classes, you're gonna get you're gonna get a nice response and it's very promising to think that you can go back and continue to to get that same gain and and that it should staircase up naturally. But that it just we don't work that way at the end of the day. You you really need that balance between the two. And if you don't, then

there's these large stress responses that the body receives that it doesn't like so much. Right. And we can talk about those.

Paul Warloski (03:29)

Okay, so the the bottom line is that we need a balance of the zone two and the HIIT work.

Paul Laursen (03:34)

That is indeed what what it kind of comes out to at the end of the day. That is, you know, the science supports that. Even though maybe the messages that you might be receiving out there aren't always clear cut. And again, we can swing the science however we want to, right? we had Dr. Jose Antonio on the podcast last and he really spoke about, we have to be pragmaticists at the end of the day.

we have to be pragmatic. And and yes, your endurance coaches who have to be, you know, they have to get results, and they have to be pragmatic as well. And they they know that in the long term we need a plan that gives us a balance of both low intensity training and the HIIT training. so so you I mean you you're you're alluding to like what goes on what what what what go what happens if we just do

these repeated spin spin classes or boot boot camp classes day after day. And what happens is that, you know, that catecholamine and cortisol response is is elicited, right? The big there's a big stressor on the body. And and that also feeds into your heart rate variability well the sorry sh actually the heart rate

Heart rate variability is the the symptom or the the marker that that is reduced. But it's you it's looking at the central nervous system and it's a big tax on the central nervous system. And it's the sympathetic system, which is the fight or flight system, it it c it it can't be up there forever. It's gotta come down and it's gotta get that balance, like you said, Paul, with the parasympathetic system. And it's gotta it's gotta re it's gotta allow recovery. And that's what

the low intensity training. And again, back to the the Norwegian study that that showed this is it really allows you to continue to get that signal, to continue to HIIT the signal, but without the huge stress that the HIIT session comes with. So yes, you can get use it to get that, you know, nice little little build. And that's why you'll see more of that in a build phase, say of of Athletica, but it has to be balanced with the low intensity zone two training.

Paul Warloski (05:51)

And just to be clear, for the HIT sessions, we're talking about heart rates that are above our second threshold that are that are high, that we're doing intense work.

Paul Laursen (06:01)

Yeah. Yeah. We typically when we look at HIIT sessions, one of the typical targets is that you know, time above ninety percent of heart rate max. That's time at VO two max. And that is Veronica Bellet in the early two thousands, late late nineties, early two thousands, she was showing that's a very potent s stimulus and signal for endurance athletes to get that

big gain in performance. And of course, you know, that's why we we we've done and that's in the HIIT science book and course. And no question that you put that in there. But that the the context needs to be clear in in the listener's mind in that that gets added on the backbone of a a long base or a long build up. And that it's not just you're not doing that all the time. you need to have the the

the large aerobic base or large aerobic foundation, which ultimately builds your, you know, your ability to oxidize fat and use that as a nice clean energy source to to elicit your performance and then, give it the HIIT session then, absolutely, and it puts the icing on the cake. But it shouldn't be exclusive HIIT training. It just doesn't work that way. And that's that that leads to burnout.

Paul Warloski (07:23)

So I know this is in your words how long is a piece of string kind of question, but are there s is there a specific number or a time threshold that crosses the line from effective to harmful?

Paul Laursen (07:34)

In tur it yeah, and it it is that how long's a piece of string and it's like it totally depends on the individual and what they're what they're capable of and what the and the the length of base and conditioning that they've had in the past. If you you know, if you're doing this right off the couch and it's your it's your first HIIT session, it's you're not gonna be real resilient to to holding on to that stress. But in the context of so you know, actually I'll t like

I'll tell a story around this one. And so I was giving this as a lecture to the New Zealand Olympic coaches and when I was working at High Performance Sport New Zealand and I was talking about HIT training and one of the questions they said, Well, you know, how much of this should we be given in our in our in our athletes' training programs and how what should be the recovery between it and and the athlete or the the the and I and I said, Okay, so

least 24 more more like 48 hours you should have between each HIIT hitch session as a as a minimum. And this old man in the in the audience put his hand up and and he he said, well you know I was the coach of John Walker, of course John Walker in the nineteen sixties is the Olympic champion for the 1500 meters. And I said, John and I were doing

HIIT training every day leading up to the to the Olympics. So and and his gold medal. So here is an athlete that's had a massive long string of of of conditioning and base training beforehand, but prior in his build phase, he's so conditioned that you know on the track he can continually HIIT these high-intensity training sessions in a in controlled doses.

Because there he's used all the principles of progression, progressive overload to reach that. But it's you know, so it's context. so certain certain athletes with certain conditioning, absolutely they can handle higher and higher doses of this this HIIT But if you don't have that baseline aerobic conditioning under it, you're only gonna go so far and likely going to feel burnt out, exhausted, not sleeping well.

And and then you you wind up stopping and you lose your consistency.

Paul Warloski (10:03)

So training background definitely makes a difference how much aerobic conditioning you've had. Does age also make a difference? I look at some of my junior athletes and and their capacity to to go hard versus what, athletes like myself in our fifties and sixties, you know, we can't do the same amount. Is so is you know, how how does that work?

Paul Laursen (10:25)

Yeah. I I I think again it's it's probably one of those relative ones, Paul, like you're like you're alluding to. And it's and this is where, almost Martin's load and load response course in o over in HIIT Science really matters in that each individual comes with they can do a training load. Load is equate to equated to stress. but how an individual responds to that stress is very individual. And we need to monitor that. Heart rate variability is one way.

muscle status is another one, right? Especially in the context of runners, where they'll have they'll lose this, as Marius Baken from the Norwegian method tells us, they'll lose their muscle tone and their stiffness and their elasticity of that muscle bed. And it changed that's the neuromuscular kind of response. So we all respond a little bit different to a given training stress depending on our status. And and that's

That's that that equates also to the older athlete, Paul. So you and me, getting up there now, we're just not probably responding as much as well as our younger counter counterparts, those who maybe we coach. But it's it's important for us to kind of fine tune and tweak and really understand how we're responding to that training so that we can prescribe accordingly. And we can talk about that a little bit more if you want if you like as well.

Paul Warloski (11:49)

Yeah, let's let's keep going on that.

Paul Laursen (11:51)

Sure. So again, you've this is this is where the individual factors come in. And we have tools at our disposal, many of the many of them in Athletica. And we've you know we've alluded to the heart rate variability one, which is going to be going to vary person to person, heart rate, heart rate variability, sleep quality, it's all in your recovery profile. That's one response, that's the one autonomic slash cardiovascular response to any of the training.

We we measure that overnight using non-invasively using a wearable. And you can see just, for each individual how they're actually responding. So that's one family of response variables to any given training stress that we should keep an eye on. And we've spoken about this at in heart rate variability talks, we don't j just look at a single day and a as a you know, say it was

way down on one day or way up on another day, we look at the average, we look at our baseline level of normal value, which is like 60 days, and we compare like the seven day rolling average. And when that seven day shift where, in the boot class camp, it would definitely shift, right? Like if you're doing five days of boot camp, you're gonna have a decrease in your heart rate variability. And you know, you would get a r a massive red flag from the AI coach.

To say this is not advised. That's not great training. So that's just one marker. But the other one kind of relates to your words and the words that you use, the semantic analysis. So when you write your comments to your AI coach or how the session felt, any other details around it, that's also listened to as well. And that's a response variable too. and of course, the RPE and the feel, these are these are giving other signals too.

And the last one that we we spoke to, and I'll just repeat it, but it's the muscle status. And so I had a, you know, an unaccustomed three hour ride yesterday, and I can just feel I've got a little bit of, there's almost even a little bit of DOMS in there. you can get DOMS even from a little bit of, even though it's a mostly a concentric cycling. I just I hadn't I hadn't really had a good ride like that in a while. I'm feeling it, and there's a change when I squeeze my muscle, there's a change in

in how it feels, in its tone, and in its in its elasticity in terms of how it bounces back and how stiff that mark that is. And this is again as as Marius t spoke about the in the Norwegian method applied, it's this is the the key thing that we want to develop our own you know aptitude around and and and you you can feel this when you walk the stairs. Sometimes your legs are gonna feel a little heavier on the stairs.

than other days or or freshness. coaches of runners and runners themselves talk about a pop factor. You'll feel that pop factor when you feel fresh and you can really kind of you know rip in there and give it. And same for, you know, you're a cycling coach, Paul, and and it would be the same for your your cycling ability when you can really get in there and you can, you know, you know on a given day you could rip out a thousand watts and

on a on a 10 second sprint or whatever your capacity is kind of thing, right? So this is this is the muscle status that we're talking about. And there's all these different you know, families that are around how you're responding to any given session, whether that's HIIT or or your zone two training.

Paul Warloski (15:21)

So is this the difference between functional overreaching and non functional overreaching when we're talking about, you know, how far we're pushing ourselves?

Paul Laursen (15:31)

Yeah, I think I think the heart rate variability is probably more of an autonomic marker of that. And I think, yeah, functional overreaching, I guess, would be, you're building up there and you know you're you're on the bit, but you're still sleeping well. And it's just it's

Paul Warloski (15:45)

Mm-hmm.

Paul Laursen (15:46)

just hard training, right? And you're in that you're in that mode. and you know you have to receive a bit of that. But then yeah, non-functional overreaching. In non functional overreaching, heart rate variability should

start to go down and the seven days

Paul Warloski (16:00)

No, no,

Paul Laursen (16:01)

should start to fall below the sixty day norm. And again, check out your check out your data on Athletica, your in your recovery profile. It's right there. And and if that's starts to happen, which it does in us from time to times, that's when you need to switch things up. Use workout wizard, switch it up to an aerobic development session or a recovery session, because you j that's the best way to just keep things ticking over. Still get that signal.

But and that's going to remember when we the muscles have a a chemical response to the training that you do. And that chemical response is a signal to tell them to adapt. Right. So that's you you can still get a bit of that when you do a recovery or a zone two session. And so not every session has to be hard to still take over and move you yourself in the right direction. but if you keep doing the HIIT training.

you're going to disturb the central nervous system, right? That's the sympathetic par parasympathetic system. And that will be the that will be the problem. And that will be kind of binning you going into what you just called there, Paul, non-functional overreaching or overtraining syndrome.

Paul Warloski (17:16)

So if we talk in generalities and if the forty-eight hours is roughly how much time you need to spend and and I say roughly because that's obviously something that's different for each person, we're talking two HIIT sessions a week, roughly.

Paul Laursen (17:34)

Yep. Yeah. And again, how alongs a piece of string. So in the elite example, and again we'll reference Marius Backen's Norwegian method applied, he did actually so at the he went with eventually three key sessions in his week that would he knew would affect muscular tone, right? That was one of the key response variables, the neuromuscular variable ultimately.

And it those would be separated by aerobic sessions in between that would lower tone, sorry, yeah, bring down the tone. the HIIT session raises the tone. The aerobic session lowers the tone back down to baseline. and then he would sort of HIIT the s HIIT the system again, but not overly, right? His his classic dose was sub-thresholds, right? he was doing

or double thresholds, but he would do these just below threshold, just below your zone four or your FTP or your all these all these sorts of things it'd be kind of more in the three zone three B if you know your athletica zones, right? Just kind of below that sweet spot. And that and he could do that twice in a day to maximally target the signal to adapt it.

And then yeah, and then it would, but it wasn't overly taxing so much that like he wasn't exhausted. So when Marius did did a HIIT session, he would it wouldn't be to the boot camp kind of like where you're just you're seeing people come out of that boot camp and they're just absolutely fried and exhausted, right? Like that's not smart smart training. You should be doing your HIIT sessions and pulling back like you could have done one or two more.

So you're always, again, the you know, we've spoken about this at length in the podcast before, Paul. It's like the most important session is the next session. So you're always trying to remember that consistency of training will win out any day of the week and twice on Sundays. So that's you want to be doing that, right? Like so, so yeah, pulling back, leaving leaving two in the chamber, and we're gonna live to train another day. So

Yeah, that's there's a lot there. But that's that's a general gist.

Paul Warloski (19:50)

There is. So, in in a in a way we can construct our weeks with our two hard two hard sessions and then fill the rest in with with easy aerobic sessions, but also with strength training. How do how ideally and again this is a st the string question? Ideally, how would you create a week of training? I mean, how does Atletica do it and what would you s what would you see your

you know, trying to create a a a balanced approach for an everyday athlete.

Paul Laursen (20:21)

Sure. Well, Athletica operates a lot. tr it tries to individualize the training for you. And you have to help the system. It's a system at the end of the day, it's not God. and it's like you you need to know that you it's a tool you can use and you can override that tool in any given day, right? So it's you you try to sort of self-seed that tool first and foremost through the training volume, right?

And and and also potentially your time constraints. You can tweak so that you can you know, you if you've only got a certain amount of time in the week and certain days, etc., you can make those modifications and Athletica will try and work around that. but yeah, low volume, mid volume, and high volume, these are the first that's the first kind of targeted approach. And then secondly, you you need to make sure that your wearable is connected because we use banisters, mathematical models.

to also tweak in terms of predict how fit you are use using that algorithm right so fitness and fatigue model and that that ultimately gives us sort of a starting point and now if we move from low to mid to high we move through the person that's just starting out this is the long string right to over to the elite athlete like John Walker right and the the

the higher the more well trained you are, the longer training history, the more HIIT sessions you're likely going to receive, where you could go up to three, three

Paul Warloski (21:55)

Mm.

Paul Laursen (21:55)

HIIT sessions in a week versus the the individuals just starting out, the low volume, they might might be getting two as as a max or even less, just one sort of in the in the base base period, just and just a a a small dose, right? Like one HIIT session c is is is just gonna be so individual, right? Where

You think just think even like a a thirty thirty dose where someone just starting out in their first HIIT session ever, they just might get, you know, six or five or six hits of thirty seconds. but you know, that's that's the very first exposure that they've ever had to it. Versus Luke Evans, who he had on on the podcast. I've seen him do seven or eight bouts of ten thirty thirties, and he does it easy over you know.

Over ninety minutes to to to two hours. This is the continuum that you that we have across our individuals. And you need to make sure that you you recognize that and you individualize for what is possible for you.

Paul Warloski (23:02)

Yeah. I mean I'm working with a guy who is seventy-one and just doing his first structured training for some gravel races. And, you know, his first HIIT workout on Athletica was a was a one by six, thirty thirty and it was perfect. And he got up there and he tried it and you know, and part of it is that muscle memory, but it's it's really him trying to learn how his body works.

Paul Laursen (23:28)

Yeah, that's that's exactly it, Paul. And that's yeah, and we're all on our own journey with with respect to this. We're all, you know, we all have our own literacy of of training with respect to training. And you know, Athletica is a is a is a great platform that tries to teach you by doing along the way, right? So there's the there's the Athletica U lectures where a lot of this information is is transmitted. There's the Athlete Compass podcast that we're doing.

And then there's the AI coach that you can ask some of these questions to, and it will do its its its best job to try to meet you wherever you are at.

Paul Warloski (24:06)

So just to you know to make a ask a personal question, you know, one of the things that I asked the AI coach is about the kind of hill climbing that I'm going to be facing in gravel nationals and should I be doing more longer threshold workouts? And it said yes and it should, you know, it more just below or slightly above threshold.

If I'm doing work in that sweet spot or below L T two, can I do more of it than doing the work above it because it's going to create less of a training stress? Is that how that

Paul Laursen (24:44)

Yes.

Paul Warloski (24:44)

works?

Paul Laursen (24:45)

That's exactly how that works, Paul. So yeah, and that's why and I have to admit, I I really only the the penny didn't drop entirely until I had these great conversations with with Marius Bakken And he really brought forth the importance to me of appreciating the what we w put in the HIIT science textbook, but that neuromuscular variable.

And just how damaging HIT sessions can be. And that is the topic of the conversation in this podcast, right? Like, so make no mistake about it. too much HIIT or or HIIT that's done excessively. it can take you out of sync. And it's all about what we we know now what what wins out is that consistency. We know that HIIT is super powerful. We we want we're not saying at all that we don't want to have it. Of course we do.

But it's like it's it's a it's a matter of finding that individual dose. And one thing we haven't talked about yet that's a really amazing tool that we speak about often on the Athlet Athletes Compass podcast is Andrea Zignoli's workout reserve. And that,

Paul Warloski (25:56)

Good point.

Paul Laursen (25:57)

you know, that is you can actually see where you're sitting with with all the HIIT sessions and the what powers and maximal mean powers.

that you've that you've done in the past. So we can use that as a tool to know how recent we've had that, right? Because remember, it's always watching what's what's happened in the last six weeks. And if all of a sudden you're doing that, you like to to the example of the 71 year old that you're just starting with, Paul. So he'll have HIIT probably some negative workout reserves because

Paul Warloski (26:30)

Mm-hmm.

Paul Laursen (26:31)

on those those six

3030s because he's never done that before. He's never had those maximum mean power exposed. But now he now he has. And the next time he does that, well, it's going to take him further to to get that same negative workout reserve. So he can now extend that. Maybe he would do, two sets of five of those or one set of, seven or eight, potentially. so we can we can use workout reserve.

to give just that a little bit more small added dose to show adaptation. because it's always looking at that maximal mean power that you've had, right? It's looking at an average of high and low intensities and and durations in in the past, always it reflecting on your power profile.

Paul Warloski (27:22)

When athletes are using excuse me, doing HIIT work, should they be focused on their power or pace or on their heart rate? How you know, wha how should they be tracking their high intensity volume?

Paul Laursen (27:38)

Yeah, such a good question. And you should be looking at the for a HIIT session, you should be looking at the external load variable, which would be power or pace. Right? Because this is this is the one that's above usually you're you're you're doing these ones at or above critical power or critical pace, right? So or you know, I mean potentially at three B, but they're they're pretty high and heart rate is going to it has a lag time.

it doesn't, you know, imagine you're doing 30 seconds at zone six, right? Heart rate can still be low. So it's not really reflecting of the the high stress component. It takes time to get up there. Likewise, when we've done a lot of high intensity work above, you know, in the high intensity red zone, well, heart rate is going to lag basically. It it no, sorry, not lag, but like

It has inertia. That's what it is. It's it stays up high for a long time and takes time to recover because it's still doing the work to to feed the missing aerobic resource or anaerobic resource. It's replenishing that. So it's it's not a heart rate is not something you really you you look look at heart rate later. You reflect on the heart rate later, but you never look at that one during. You look at the

what you're trying to execute in terms of the external load variable and that's pace and power.

Paul Warloski (29:06)

Okay, good. Paul, you've been working with high performance athletes for a lot of years. Why do so many athletes, in your opinion, gravitate towards doing more HIIT even if it hurts their progress?

Paul Laursen (29:23)

Because we're we're we're followers, myself included, but you you have to make a choice in terms of what you what you follow. And there's just this prevalent message, the no pain, no gain message is prevalent in society that you need to work harder to to get success. And you know, I have I have athletes that come to me and they s

They say, know, they're type A individuals, as most of us are. And they say to me, Paul, I'm I'm the I'm going to be the hardest worker out there. And I tell them back, I say, I don't want you to be the hardest worker out there.

Paul Warloski (30:00)

Mm-hmm.

Paul Laursen (30:01)

I want you to be the smartest worker out there. I want you to listen to your body. I want you to actually do a bit less. that's that's that's almost the message that I that I send to some of these athletes that that come to me that I get success with.

Because it they don't need they don't need the they don't have the problem of working harder. They have the problem of working smarter. And that's what that's the platform that we're trying to build with with Athletica to get that point across. And it's you know, it's it's one of the most difficult things to do because of that message that's out there. And we're we're yeah, we're we're

Paul Warloski (30:41)

Yeah.

Paul Laursen (30:41)

a society that wants to work hard and and and get success, but we have to do it a smarter way.

Paul Warloski (30:47)

So how do we coach athletes who are proud of doing their five HIIT sessions a week and without making them feel like they're failing?

Paul Laursen (30:54)

Well, that's a good question. I think it's just you have to sometimes let people fail first, if I'm speaking honestly. And it's you have to and you have to make observations, right? I mean Einstein gets quoted for for this one, whether he said it or not, who knows? But it's like,

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting a different result. Right.

Paul Warloski (31:21)

Yeah.

Paul Laursen (31:21)

And and that's so eventually as you learn you and and you're making observations, it's time to try something different. And so yeah, you our body can can handle that for a certain time.

But then we need to we need to pull back. And this is where again, Paul, Athletica is is only a tool. So even if you know if Athletica might be driving and giving you these these these sessions, but if you're not responding ideally to these, whether it's the taper, the build, wherever you might be breaking down, you gotta also you have to be ready to override that. but I will say the the the tool that's

That's alongside that's being developed. They're kind of almost being developed in in parallel. So we started obviously with the platform and the algorithms and the which is the sessions that you give or that that Atletica gives you. But then the what everyone's recognizing now is the power of the AI coach to to really tweak and when that is integrated better, which is being worked on as we speak, you know, where Athletica act the AI coach has.

right access to change those sessions. That is going to be the ideal, the ideal setup. But really leverage the the your discussions with the AI coach to help you fine tune and make those tweaks. And again, workout wizard is a is a great tool also that where you can manipulate any individual session based on how you feel. So you're still in the driver's seat and you need to know that if you're using Athletica and you've got to let

Yeah, like know that you're in charge and don't blindly go with the recommendation that might be be put forth. And same for the the athletes that we coach too, right, Paul? Like we have to we have to empower and teach them as well so that they can help you know, make those decisions based on how they're feeling and how they know they're responding in any given day. They're they're gonna be a better athlete if they do.

Paul Warloski (33:25)

Yeah. Yeah. I I I'm thinking about one of my athletes right now who's who's still fairly new to me. We've been working together several months, but he he definitely likes to go hard and he's got an engine. And you know, we're working on the education part about it's okay to go hard, but then you have to go easy too, because you can't do that, especially in your forties and fifties. Your body just doesn't want to respond that way and it takes time to recover.

Paul Laursen (33:51)

Yeah.

Paul Warloski (33:52)

And

you know, that's something that you know, that's an educational piece.

Paul Laursen (33:56)

Yeah, yeah, for sure. It is. Yeah. I was reflecting on my story with Andy Bush or who's you know, you'll you'll see him often on on Athletica and many of the the imagery and he's he won Ironman Lanz Lanzarote and I'm reflecting on his story lately and yeah, he went through that same process with me, which took si eighteen months really. So it's not an overnight fix. But you know, it's it's like you yeah, you have to really have to r recognize the integration.

of the various different sessions that are in there. And, you know, again, the podcast has been about the HIIT sessions, which are super important, but you can get too much of a good thing. And you've got to balance it with the other sessions around there because they will support the the HIT work, which really, you know, the it it gets compressed or focused in the build phase, a little bit in the taper, but but it's, you know, and and it really needs the supporting

Power, adaptation energy, we call it, has in the base phase. It's gotta have that first. And if you put all those ingredients together, you have a really good cake.

Paul Warloski (35:01)

Hm. Yeah, and I look forward to the episode that we'll be doing soon about adaptive energy that you talk a lot about and what that all means.

Paul Laursen (35:09)

And yeah.

Paul Warloski (35:11)

I look f that'll be coming soon, so keep an eye out or an ear out, as the case may be.

Paul Laursen (35:16)

Love it.

Paul Warloski (35:18)

Thanks for listening today to the Athletes Compass Podcast. Take a moment now, subscribe, share, and let's keep navigating this endurance adventure together. Improve your training with the science science based training platform Athletica, and join the conversation at the Athletica Forum. For Dr. Paul Laursen I'm Paul Warloski and this has been the Athletes Compass Podcast. Thank you so much for listening.