All right, John, we're back, back again. How you feeling about granola? Seriously, You mean my, my rant about granola stuck in your, stuck in your head since we, uh, left. Yeah. Yeah. I was concerned about you. Everything, everything all right in the granola front these days. Yeah. I, I think it's worked out. You know what I've, I've got some feedback after that first episode where I had my little granola rant. A couple people wanted to know whats complaining about. I was adopting the Charles Barkley mentality, which I've heard him talk about, which is no free pub man. But you know what? I'll mention the brand. It was Cascadian Farms. I'm telling you this as a way to invite them to come, kinda maybe share their point of view about what went into the decisions they made to put less product into a crappier package and charge more money. They probably have a reason for it, and I would encourage them to join us and talk about it. Let's go nuts, physically almonds. And you know, Brian, I think it'd be great if, uh, anyone who hears this podcast would share with us a recommendation for an expert who can talk to us about either shrink deflation or Skimm ifl, or both. I'd love to. I'd love to dedicate some time to that. Yeah. Even having to market a product that maybe isn't necessarily moving its way forward the way that you'd want to. Yeah. So. I'm sure, I'm sure people had good reasons for making their snap decisions about, you know, their products because that's what this, that's what this podcast is all about. Right. We're, we're here to give a little behind the scenes look at some of those decisions that define how products and brands and people present themselves, the world, and the people that are buying those big decisions. So I'm excited for our first big interview today. Nice. Can't wait to talk to you with Bill Bergen. He's a huge COA fan of her. Yeah. Well, so before we talk to Bill, why don't we get into a quick Snap decision and what do you got for us? I got something for you Brian, and I know you're a sports fan, so I've noticed obviously there's been a lot of these kind of alt casts, right? So where there's a main broadcast going on, on one network, uh, sister Network is carrying like the Manning Brothers offering commentary during a football game. So there are some new wrinkles happening in that alt cast universe that I think have really, that really caught my attention. So at the end of the baseball season in September, the Tampa Bay Rays, uh, in Major League Baseball faced the Los Angeles Angels at Tropic on a field, and fans had the option to watch that game as a real time animation. So kind of looking like a video game. And then starting in week four in the NFL, the Jacksonville Jaguars. The Atlanta Falcons played a game in London, right? A, B, C, Disney, AB, C. Recreated that game in real time and had it take place in Andy's room. That setting from the Toy Story franchise. So all the action played out on ESPN with toy Story characters replacing actual players. So again, it was simultaneous, slight delay to the main telecast. You know, it just gave an entirely different lens to an existing NFL game. My take is. That's probably gonna be great for advertisers who are looking to try new things and experiment with, you know, how they can stand out. Really a big part of this, you know, the leagues have a strong desire to expand their fan bases and streaming services, who carry these broadcasts are looking to drive subscriptions. I do wonder if, you know, at some point there's some backlash with people who are just like, I, I just wanna watch the game. Don't, don't promote these alternative experiences. I just wanna watch an actual football, baseball, basketball, whatever game, but. It does seem like there's a lot of innovation happening there. So Brian, I I want to ask you, are these entirely alternative viewing experiences bad, or are they actually the future of sports viewing? First of all, I can't help but think of being in that creative pitch for the Toy Story Project I know we've both been in, in that room, and when the creative comes up with a fantastic idea and gets shot down immediately, but, but this time they said yes. Yeah, they go for it. And he like, wait, what? Now we actually, to do this, we have to, we have to animate an entire NFL game in real time. in Toy Story. So, uh, kudos to that guy, um, or gal. And that, uh, was kind of a really neat and innovative way to, um, create an experience. You know, my take on this is that we're gonna see more and more of, of this type of experience kind of flex into, into watching sports. And as a marketer, I think that's exciting 'cause people like to do things in a lot of different ways. And you have these different kinds of segments of audiences, whether it's kids and Toy Story or the Nickelodeon stream. With the slime. The slime broadcasts. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that, and some of that. They do like some more fundamental stuff in teaching people how to watch the game and what it like, what it, what the rules are and things like that. And then you have more of the kids in their twenties or teenagers who might watch more of the alternative broadcasts, which to me kind of reminds me of kids watching other people play video games. So people definitely interact with content in different ways. Uh, the one place that I kind of get hung up is like, yes, it gets people to, to watch and that will bring eyeballs, but like, does that convert somebody into becoming a real fan and really paying attention to what's going on instead of just kind of being part of an environment? That part I don't know about. I mean, those alt casts do have sort of like a, a, some sort of semblance of gathering people together to watch something, which is kind of like, you know, us getting together with our buddies to watch a game. But I don't know if that converts people to long-term, you know, viewers or fans. But, um, it's certainly some different, you know. Yeah. Uh, you know, you touched on a couple things there. One, you know, the Nickelodeon examples. I think a really good one. 'cause like you said, it, it kind of brought people along and educated them on something that maybe they don't really know. Quote, pound watch. So that does seem like a really smart strategy to kind of bring new viewers in, whether they stick as a different question. I also, as you were talking, I wondered, man, what, uh, what about some of these, I mean, some of these players, many of these players becoming kind of brands unto themselves. Within the game. And at some point, if there's certain, if there's an alternative rendering of a player, do they start to get pissed off that, Hey, wait, no, they, they, people are coming to watch me. Don't create an animated version of me It doesn't look like me. You know, I, I, I wonder if that's a thing sometime down the road. We'll see. Yeah. I mean, I think this can go in a, in a million different directions and it kind of already is, but. I do see more of like the opportunity to kind of flex the experience with the type of layering and context that that somebody wants, whether that's through like some sort of augmented reality or. VR or, or whatever. It's kind of boundless. So yeah, I guess that's exciting. But we'll see. Yeah, we'll see. Lots, lots of implications, uh, to unfold and I don't think we've seen kind of the ultimate best use case for some of these alternative things, but um, I'm sure we'll see plenty more of it before we're done. Absolutely. And you know, speaking of getting fans interested in sporting events, I'm just super pumped about speaking with our first ever snap decisions guest. Woo hoo. Yeah. And he created the original character of Ted Lasso in, in a series of commercials to get visibility on soccer in the United States. When, uh, NBC got the, the rights to the Premier League about a decade ago, a team I coach, they're gonna play hard for all four quarters. Okay? Two Hobbs. What's that? Two Hoves. Okay. Halves. They're gonna play hard for two halves, and we're gonna play till there's a winner and there's a loser or a tie. What's that? A tie. Okay. Till there's a winner, a loser, or a tie you can tie. If you tried to end a a game in a tie in the United States, heck that might be listed in Revelations as the cause for the apocalypse. Yeah. Do we have any goals this season? Absolutely. We're gonna win a lot of games. We're gonna get in the playoffs. No playoffs. There's no playoffs. Again, my job has got a lot easier ties and no playoffs. If you watch Ted Lasso the TV show storing Jason Sudeikis, that clip probably sounds a lot like the first episode, but it was created six years before the show premiered on Apple Plus, and it was part of the campaign you mentioned, which launched a whole new sports viewing opportunity to Americans. Brian, our guest today is the guy behind that campaign. He spent his whole career marketing sports and he's really transformed which sports people watch and how they watch them. Bill Bergen is a senior marketing executive who did something I didn't think was going to be possible in this country. He got millions of people to watch soccer footnote, not including me. Yes, a huge part of that was the Ted Lasso campaign for NBC sports. But Bill has won a lot of awards to prove that he's no one hit Wonder, the Grand Prix Award at the Khan International Festival for creativity. Emmys Spro Max Awards, d and d Pencils, cleos, and most importantly, effies for Marketing Effectiveness, including a Grand Effy nomination for the success of that Premier League campaign featuring Ted Lasso. He's done it at Fox Sports NBC Sports and Telemundo Deportes. He's currently head of marketing and creative for the YES Network. That's the Yankees Entertainment and Sports Network, which was a pioneer in the concept of regional sports networks. Please say hello to Bill Bergen. Hello, hello? Thanks for joining us. It's great to be here. Yeah, indeed. Bill, really, really grateful that you're able to join us. Yeah. Bill, you know, we've been talking about some of the unique and creative ways that brands and networks are trying to reach people and audiences during live events, during these like tent pole events. And it's not just getting them to tune in, but it's getting them to stay and there's so much noise and content out there. How has that impacted your job and how you engage audiences while they're watching and, and overall. It's, it's a great question, an amazing challenge that, you know, goes well, well beyond marketing content for that matter. I think that the, the tried and true still holds. We're storytellers. We're, we're creating content. Our job is to get people interested. I think the approach that I've taken has always been one on a cultural level, right? So, so many people love sports. You know, we're very, I've been very fortunate to have a product that people. Care greatly about, and a lot of marketers start their career selling kitty litter, but I, I fortunately didn't, didn't have to go through the, the subpoena and suffering of that. I've always felt like incredible storytelling will beget greater interest. And a lot of it is, is finding those points of being relatable without tripping that BSS third rail, um, which I think a lot of advertising and promotion does. It's just, you know, it's either straight at it. Okay. If I'm a sports fan, I know why I already wanna watch this particular game. How do you, how do you change perceptions? And so the, you know, the other piece is, is, is technology, do you think it's gonna continue to integrate itself into the traditional broadcast, or do you think it'll stay kind of adjacent? Like, when I want it, I, I'll get it, or, you know, do you see that stuff just kind of, I. Coming together even more? No, I think it, I think it's gonna come together more and more with the landscape changing. When you have people like Amazon and Apple going after global rights of sports. I mean, they're tech companies, they're just gonna reinvent the way people watch it. 'cause they're not looking through that traditional lens of the broadcast television trying to figure out new ways to do what they've been doing one way forever. You've gotta deepen that engagement, right? If you go to a actual game, most people are sitting on their phones. What app are they pulling up? Well, boy, yeah. Would it be great if the first app that they open up is the S app? Those are some of the things that we're working with our partners on, and to me, you know, that that level of utility and and added experience will make people who are not just users of your product, but fans of your product. Hey, bill, you've, you've really had a fascinating career path, and we won't ask you to kind of walk through all of it, but you started in sports. You're still in sports because this podcast is really focused on decisions that people have made in their career. Was there a pivotal moment in your career development where you kind of were really at a crossroad? You had to kind of pick, uh, a, a path from two divergent directions. Actually, there's, there's one really interesting work in the road. We've all had them and, and you have decisions to make and they, they alter the course of history. Hopefully for the better. Mine was, I, I had very early success. Went from Madison Square Garden to a sports marketing firm. We were working in the Olympics and World Cup and, and then I said, I'm either gonna go back to school or I wanna work in a league. Well, I got, I got in, I got a job at the NFL. I did not go to an Ivy League school and felt, felt very fortunate. Certainly earned my way there. After a few years, I've like this kinda like three to four year itch in my career that, that I, you know, feel like I have to dump everything out and start over again. They always said like, you have one shot to leverage that shield. To advance your career and I really wanted to get into television and I had two offers roughly about the same time. One was at ABC Sports to be first marketing manager that now defund, BCSI killed many things in my career, even before I got to work on it, if at all, And the other was to go launch Fox SportsNet Detroit. And for any of you who have met me, it was like my cousin Vinny and I, I, I chose to go to Detroit. Everyone thought I was nuts, as opposed to walking down the street too. 66th West 77th Street in a BBC sports' office at the time. And my rationale for doing so was there were two pieces to that. One is I'd rather be the big fish in a small pond and get that experience than be able to parlay it. The other was, the guy who was hiring me was, yeah, I'd be reporting to corporate, to Fox Sports. He said, look, you'd do a great job and the next job at corporate's, yours for growing rapidly. I said, how do I know I can trust you? And he said, you're not betting on me buddy. Boy, you're betting on you. Alright. So, so got you. Moved to not go with the, uh, the big name brand job, but to something. Unexpected and paid off for you? Yeah, I, I would say, look, I mean, Fox was still an amazing brand and I think they were innovators at the time. So to get, you know, be able to go out and go to LA and be around them, you know, just even the osmosis of some of the most incredibly talented, creative people in the industry, it was just phenomenal. I just saw the other day, uh, it's 30 years since they got the NFL rights, which is insane. Yeah. Makes me feel old. You know, Fox was on the forefront of a lot of the modern marketing stuff, so that, that's, uh, that's a fascinating move. How long did it take you to get to corporate? 15 months. Really? Yes. So yeah, we, we got up there. We didn't unpack everything that we brought because we knew either this was gonna happen quick or we'd be putting the cash back in the Some people, some people just, you know, move across the country from New York to la Some people kind of stop midway for 15 minutes. everyone always jokes about the flyover states. Well, you know what? Most of America live in between, uh, you know, the two beaches. So, um, I, I, I found an invaluable experience about how to market to all different types of people. Yeah, I'm gonna hold on to your, uh, my cousin video reference because I, I, I think that kind of paints the picture for us. There were a lot of Utes there. Ute, did you say Utes, another interesting decision you made was to go to an agency after that. Can you tell us a little bit about that and what some of the big learnings from that was? Box was really where I kind of made that leap over to advertising and. Working with the people who were there, were all the people who created the, this is SportsCenter campaign, and our agency was Cliff Freeman of partners and all the people. There were the people who created, worked, did all the Nike work and, and ESPN work at, at, uh, you know, widen. So I, you know, all of a sudden I'm thrust into these brains and, and creativity and strategy and things that just like my head exploded. And I found that most of the people I really respected and, and I, you know. Enjoyed working with, were, were our agency partners and we were doing like, just crazy work and just groundbreaking stuff. And again, was out there for about four or five years. We had our daughter and kind of felt the pullback east and thought, well, you know, let me, let me, uh, let me give something else a shot here. And, and ironically I was sort of like. Maybe it's time to dip outta sports for a minute. Yeah. Well, you, you know, you, you, you, you've shared a couple instances where you haven't been afraid to kind of make a big shift or, or, you know, jump into something different and new. And one of the things that, uh, Brian observed when we were getting ready for you was, uh, the fact that you helped create a whole new sports day part with soccer when NBC Sports brought the Premier League to the network, and you did it by introducing the world to a character and a couple of long form promos named Ted Lasso. Can you. Tell us about the strategy you started with before we get into how Ted lasso the, the creative output came to pass. What is the creative strategy to launch that new day part? Well, I, I, I think there are a few things at play here, and it goes back to risk taking. If you remember, these rights were acquired right after the merger when Comcast acquired NBC Universal. I got a new boss, so I had to convince a guy that John, we both know well, John Miller, that, that I can take this and that we should, shouldn't just, oh, we got this. We can do this. And the, the promo department at NBC Sports could handle this. And so first thing strategically I did was put the right people around the, the right problem. I brought in a guy who actually was an agency that I worked with for a long time already, who said, if you ever get the Premier League, I will do for free. Did you catch that? Uh, he exactly, he did not do it right. But, uh, he, he was a, a Britt that came over to America about 20 years earlier, you know, for his adult career. And so he was a Premier League fan living in America, so who better? And, and a, you know, one of the great, great creatives on the planet and strategist. So the strategy, that was the first step in having to sell that in, which is a very funny story in and of itself. Um, but ultimately the strategy was a few fold. One was how do we create a tipping point through one? The existing audience was there because they were maniacal and ardent, and influential, and affluent, and a lot of those fun marketing words were used, so we had to find them and be able to really activate. That Core two was if they're leaders, then all their friends who see them go off and get plowed on Saturday mornings, uh, in their kids and then, you know, somehow manage to find their way to their own kids' soccer game. You know, bring them along for the rock and pull them in and make it okay for them to come in. And the last thing was, literally the last thing was, alright, why should people give a shit about it? And what's, how do we get them over the, the barrier of I don't know what I'm supposed to be watching. Right. And, and how to watch this and it's okay not to know, which is, that's a universal theme. Right? And, and that had to have been a, a big. Hurdle would get over because that's the only way you're gonna get to a mass audience. Correct. But we actually started like surgically, so the first thing was, is that real Premier League fans, we were able to find five markets where they were just way over indexed in terms of concentration so we could afford to go in with the limited dollars that we had. Second is, the first campaign was around. The Britishness of it all. Well, really the first part of the campaign was that, that with getting to the people every match, every weekend online on TV n HD free, right? Because they'd never had that before. Second thing was, okay, how do we make people look peer around the corner? Because at the time it was Downton Abbey and all these, uh, Peaky Blinders and Britain culture was just, you know, permeating. So, you know, we tried to really kind of play up the whole Britishness of it, which I. It was just smart cultural shift. And then the last piece was, okay, how do we get, how do we take the piss out of ourselves and that we're stupid American's? 'cause we don't understand soccer and the rest of the world. It seems to have figured it out. Aha. And that, that was literally the last piece of the pie was, was Ted lasso. And matter of fact, it, of all of them, that was the one piece that almost didn't happen about four times for, for different reasons. It just was a journey to get that thing. But the gods were work hard to us. They sure were. And on that last part, you know, the, the taking the piss outta yourselves to use a British phrase, you found a character or you created a character that let people learn about this game that they didn't know. Enough about and gave them permission to be, I guess as ignorant as Ted lasso and come in cold and figure it out. Can you tell us a little more about the, kind of like the creative strategy of how you kind of got to that point where you had this character that was gonna deliver all the, all the messages you need to deliver to that, that mass audience? I think this is also one where a little bit of chaos theory, uh, mixed with fate because we, we set out with that. Strategy, but we actually were, and we were gonna go with a fish outta water character, but we actually started, we're trying to bring a Britt over to America, which I'm not sure would've worked. But we started there. We went to John Oliver first. Um, and he couldn't do it because he was on Comedy Central at that point. And they said, we can't, he would love to do this, but he's got something big coming. We can't tell you what it's, yeah. And then now you have his HBO show, which. Then we're like, all right, well let's, let's see if there's someone in NBC. 'cause we're really trying to make an SNL digital short, so we wanna talk about branding. We're trying to keep this also in the NBC brand wheelhouse. So we went to Seth Meyers, uh, at the time, and he was SNL and he was a big Westham fan. Yeah, we did. Who's, you know who, who's out there, who's a Premier League fan. He'd love to do it, but he's got something big coming up and we can't tell you where it's. Right. Okay. So now who's next? I think we went, we've talked about, so you're good at spotting future talk show is what you're telling us. Well, well the weird fatalistic thing as I go through it is like everyone we approached, like had this huge hit come out of it. Now, did we have anything to do with anything of the once before? No. It was probably dumb luck that. Those were, those people weren't available otherwise we would've probably never gotten to Jasons who was fifth. So there was Chris Pratt in their Jurassic world. but we were like toggling between, you know, someone coming here, someone going there. We were just sort of like out of, out of time, out of like, Ugh, okay, this is the greatest idea, but who And it, we literally had a tank talent Wrangler in or guy and, and the Brooklyn Brothers guy Barnett, who's the creative I've mentioning before I mention, Hey, we had a talent wrangler who was approaching people in Hollywood. You know, when we said, Hey, let's go after them, let's you hire talent Ray. She, uh, this woman ju Julie Mulhall and just said, Hey, what do you think about Jason Sude? Because he's off of, I know he is off of SNL and he doesn't seem to have anything in the, in the hopper right this second. And she had been free to his manager. I guess that's how she knew it. So it was said, alright, sure. And we, you know, we, we approached him. He came back and he had no, he was not a soccer fan at all. Didn't really matter, but he just came back and said, and it was, I, I'm pretty sure the character at that point was like, named Ted Lasso. We had, I have the original script, which is. It's, it's almost, I, you know, other than some ad lib is pretty intact, uh, because it was so designed to accomplish a goal. Um, but he came back and said, you know, can I see a few more ideas? I like the idea of this. So guy went and created a few more characters and things, and then he said, man, we'll stick with the original. And then we, we got to a writer's room with him and Brendan. Uh, who's coach Beard and I, for me, this was like amazing to be involved in, in, in the creative soup of all of this. Oh, so you were in that right. It writer wrote, uh, to a degree. I mean, I, I, I will, I mean, I certainly had everything to do with scripts edits. Certainly when we get to post. Um, you know, it's fascinating to me that, that you just said that, that the original script was you basically produced what was basically the original script. I've heard you talk previously about, you know, how amazing Sudeikis was at improv doing the character, yet the original script kind of survived. Testament for guy was keeping, keeping the train on the tracks where, where, where Jason was amazing at improv and delivery in each of these buckets that we wanted to like, okay, let's teach him off sides. If you go back there and watch the original, how it's structured is we went and shot these vignettes and then went back and sat him down to explain each one of them as they went along. Got it. It was, it was, you know, structured in a, in a, in a, a really interesting way to accomplish that. And, and, and then from there, you know, we got him to agree to do it and then we, it was like. June and the season was starting in August. And all the Premier League clubs were all traveling to do friendlies around the world. So, you know, getting a, getting a club to find a team that was even in town shoot with was, was a challenge, let alone. So you wanted to, you wanted to depict Ted with an actual known team, with players that people would recognize and credibility. Correct. Otherwise, yeah, I think it would've fallen down. Someone would've done it. I mean, there are others who would've taken that path of, we've got a cool idea, we've got a good talent, uh, let's just fake the rest. Uh, so. I think credit to you and the team for recognizing that authenticity would carry the day. I woke up on like a, a, a Sunday morning. I remember in, in the deadline had been last. Thursday for Go. No go. And I just was not ready to give up. I had been working with Tottenham, matter of fact, guy's favorite team. He, he was a Tottenham fan. So John Miller, who is my boss, said, you can use any club other than Tottenham because you've put them in everything so far because of great thanks, And so I called Tottenham literally on the Sunday. I called their, their press guy. I became, I became friendly with, um, and said, is your first squad around on, uh, you know, the couple next couple of weeks? He's like, yeah, sure. I'm like, all right. So I had to go once again convince, uh, that we, we were, you know. It would be like, you know, creating an NFL launch campaign and only doing it with the, the, the jives or in case, right. It would be a terrible, terrible idea. I think that would be, I, I, that's why I, I upped it. I upped it to Eagles, but, uh, there you go. So what was the reaction at NBC when they saw that? The first set of commercials, I don't know that anyone saw other than me and my boss, John Miller. I, it was amazing. I had such amazing. Trust and latitude now, uh, you know, it was a few months into to working together. We had my, the head of social media, like waiting at one o'clock in the morning to put this thing organically on YouTube and we just, we just lobbed it out there, no money behind it, nothing. And then went to sleep and woke up and we woke up. There's already a million hits on it. And then. 2012, a million hits in less than 24 hours on YouTube was, was not a common occurrence as it is today, but you just used the words trust and latitude and some of the reasons you were able to get that campaign produced in in market. I think that is an amazing commentary because you know the best things I've ever produced Aim when I had trust and latitude, and with that Underneath that is fewer people making big decisions. So has that been sort of a, a consistent thing in your career where some of your best work has come when you've got that? Oh, absolutely. But I think one of the things that I've, I've learned over time is, is how, how do you navigate around that too? Because you're not always gonna have it. Bosses change, job new. Yep. Career moments. So how, how do you take the formula that you've made work in one place that's earned you that trust and latitude and, and, and effectively sell it in sometimes unbeknownst to the people you're selling it in on to. Allow to do things. So have you figured that out? How, how did you sandbag pack that code for us? Sandbag, scare 'em with something else, and then bring in, you know, you gotta have the, the, what do you call the stalking horse? The, uh, straw. The straw dogs. Oh wow. I mean, there's, there's a give 'em crap and then save it with the thing you really wanna sell. Boy, you gotta be ready to whatever you put in front of anyone. It's the, the, the catch 22 is, uh, if you put something out, you know, not everyone has. The same sensibility you do. But if you're gonna put something out there for approval, you better be ready to run it. Look, you have a marketing strategy for what it is you're trying to sell to consumers. Shouldn't you have a marketing strategy to sell what you're trying to get done internally as well? Because again, not everyone's gonna be expert marketers. Not everybody's gonna see it the way you see it. So that starts months and months in advance. So when begin the briefing process internally, that part of that process is briefing in and getting consensus among. The people who you need their support. Yeah, and I love the, uh, you know the part about it, it's okay to not be the smartest guy about soccer, you know, because you're leaning into an angle that's gonna drive more people to watch it and it's okay to watch it. And I'm sure that kind of resonated with them as well. Just, you know, we're focused on trying to bring more people in. Who are the traditional people? We have them covered too. We're not gonna push them away, but we're gonna open it up to be a bigger thing. Right. Well I think that's the other thing is also setting a bar that's like ridiculous. Right? And, and let let people like kinda look at you like you're crazy. For me, what I said is, look, at the time, MLS really hadn't established itself yet as, as far as it's has today. Premier League, regardless, I think is the best elite play, and it's the football for the rest of the world. So I said that. How do we make Premier League, the NFL of real football in the United States and people look like, well, we have Sunday night football. I said, well, we're gonna have Saturday morning football. Actually, I tried to sell in the name of that and I couldn't because of literally licensing rights for ownership for Sunday night football. They weren't comfortable bumping up against it. Actually, ES PN owns that term, by the way. That would've been fantastic. I tried to sell it through. They just, that, that's one where you, they jump out and you take these risks, but the whole idea of aiming that high, I think. Oh, LA gave us the latitude to, to dream big. You sure did. And it, it paid off hearing. You talk about the, the, the process of getting the, the Ted Lasso campaign off the ground. You mentioned Jason Cus was choice. I don't know if he knows that, but he does now, if we send him this recording. Uh, can you imagine someone else who was higher up on your list inhabiting the body of Ted Lasso at this point? Well, I, I don't know that that was each, each had a character that was crafted to them, so I see. There wouldn't have been, there wouldn't have been. He was Ted Lasso. That was the character. So you had, you had entirely different campaign directions for the other talent. Correct. And I can't find those scripts anywhere. Oh, God saved me. But um, uh. So it'll have to remain an oral history. You know, right now if somebody at NBC is scrambling through the servers to find those scripts to actually do a, a, a relaunch of the Premier League for the next season. Exactly. Using exactly Chris Pratt or, uh, John Oliver. What a, what a like, merging of, you know, the marketing side, the agency side, and then the creative talent that Sudeikis brought. And, you know, putting all those things together and, and the product. Yeah. And that could go in a lot of different directions. And, um, I know you and I ended up staying pretty close to the script, but I'm sure just the, everybody's pointing in this in the same direction was, uh, must have been extremely gratifying. It, it was, and I think also there was a, a, a bigger, again, res resources. Runway is we actually had three agencies. So Guy was sort of the, you know, the epicenter with me. But we also had a sort of a, a, a, a stunts events, you know, uh, SWAT team agency, and then we had our media agency. And from the outset, I got everybody at the table and I said, everybody, you know, I think we all want know for, for, for pipe. I said, let's just drop all pretense here. Um, you know this, it's, it's all our idea, it's all our success, or it's all our failure, so. Everybody's gotta depend on everyone else because the media that we put in those five cities or taking over bars in those cities, or, you know, the stunts, a guy, you know, a guy came up with the idea of like, let's get old English cabs and take advanced matches. And the, the next agency had to execute against it. Or if that agency came up with an idea, guy had to do the creative for the media agency, had to purchase the, the space or whatever it may be. Um, and, and we're able to get three pretty significant agencies to Play together in the sandbox incredibly well. I think Marshalling resources has always been one thing that I've, I've, whether it be internal or, or external, both optimally, I think a big key to success. 'cause you, you, you can't do it yourself. When did you have a good sense on the character of Ted Lasso has more legs than just these commercials? Uh, right away. I'm also a big fan of using YouTube and, and other social media as your real time focus group. I mean, people right away were going, when's the show coming out? But literally back in 2014, I had the show greenlit and I, I, I go back and here's where it's like dreaming big. I, I was like a slave to being a company guy said, can we get 10 o'clock on Thursday nights and we're gonna do this show and we're gonna mark. Our SportsCenter is going to become comedy show, like our list. You think about HBO and Mm-Hmm, So there's a bunch of, you know, shows go back, but there's, you know, a bunch of sports themed shows. Not many before. Uh, I just thought this would, this would be such a huge win. Um, got a green lit, went to Mark Lazarus. I I learned how to green light a show and spoke. Went to meet people Universal television in both the US and uk. Um, ended up getting BB, C to basically pay for it. They were gonna put it on their BBC player, which was their new OTT streaming back in 2014. They were gonna pay the entire production and everything was gonna be gravy. This thing was gonna make money. And, you know, for personal reasons. And Jason I think says it in some articles that he just, he got distracted with other things. He had a married and had a son and. Had other things going on, and this was always just a passion project for him. And it kind of put, he put it on the shelf. We literally had meetings in London with a woman named Sharon Horgan, made remember? Fantastic. Cont Fantastic. Yeah. And, and she was gonna be the showrunner. We literally had all the pieces together and like many of these things do. Most never go to air. They most fizzle. Or barely make it. We had a pilot. We didn't even need a pilot, we had the pilot. Um, so we were ready to go and it just kind of fell off and then it wasn't again until 2017. And when I left, I was eventually told like, okay, bill put it down. Um, Jason's people were always like, this should be really beyond Netflix, but I was holding onto the ip, we owned the date and uh, maybe I shouldn't have held on so tightly. So, you know, for that long. But ultimately when I, when I was told to put it down, I put it in the hands of universal television ultimately. Um, then, you know, got licensed to, and then I left NBC sports, so I was sort of now one step removed but still working with it. 'cause I was an ad still at NBC Universal and ultimately they did a co-production deal with Warner Brothers and Apple tv, the rest of history. Yeah. Bill, I have to ask, is seeing it become such a successful show and really a kind of a cultural phenomenon during Covid, is that hard to watch something that you kind of gave birth to turn into something that's such a phenomenon? Well, there are two, two different kinds of watch. Watch It Happen is amazing. The only thing, and it's most people focus on the money and boy sure it would've been. Great. I mean, NBC sports made a ton of money off of just the licensing use of the name. I don't know what economics were in terms of any, anything on the co-production. They may have just licensed away the name for all I know. I never really found that part out. And it's like, aren't you so mad that you didn't make your bazillions of dollars? First of all, most people never make money on their first time. Yeah. I wasn't thinking about the money. I was thinking more about the, you know, the professional Oh, I that the, the watch this, turn into that. I mean, think about, alright, this is ego non withstanding. I, I changed consumption of an entire sport in America and, and made something so much more important to people. 'cause we all know the value that sports brings to all of our lives. I then when a Global Pandemic hit was, was the, the, you know, father at some way, shape, or form of something that gave people hope globally. That's pretty, that's pretty big. Uh, I love that. What I love to have made a couple more shekels off it here and there, whatever really I direct deposit was pretty, kind to me during those days. So I, I'll tell you the coolest thing and, and people call bullshit on me on this, but I was skiing with my daughter at Park City. We're on the shuttle back to the hotel and. Full bus full of people and doors closed. My daughter was like 15 at the time, and the driver goes, Hey, is anyone watching this Ted Lasso? And everybody starts, uh, and my daughter just looks at me and the look in her eyes and she goes, dad, tell them, tell them. I'm like, eh, it's okay. I just got everything I needed outta this. Nice. Well, your daughter's, you got your daughter's pride and endorsement for sure. Yes. Fake it. Well, fantastic. I love that. You appreciate the double bump you got there, right? You got to do something amazing in terms of transforming the way people consume a sport. Um. And, you know, contributed to something that really kind of made people feel a little better in a crappy time. So thanks for that on behalf of the world. Thank you. Thank you for your service. Yes, it was, uh, it, yes. Very, very cool thing. And it's great to, you know, have in, in, you know, in a chapter in the book in my brain. Is there anything that, that you haven't shared about that little Ted lasso origin story that you, you could tell us some kind of behind the scenes thing that you found most fascinating or shocking or horrifying? Part of his, uh, remuneration, his compensation was, Hey, I get a trip from me and my buddies to London for a weekend, first class to go watch football. So, 'cause we were definitely not paying him what he's used to earning at first time we did this. So we said, sure. Um, I started talking to his manager and he, he's like, Hey, we wanna book that trip. And I said, when do you wanna do it? He goes, what are you free? And I said, oh, nice. I said, I didn't blink. I said, well, you tell me. I'll, I'll find, I'll, I'll make myself ring. So we went over for a weekend. It was me, Jason, his manager, coach Beard, and his writer Joe Kelly, who remained attached to the writing of the show with, with Bill Lawrence. Um, you know, went for a weekend in London. So I figured one of three eventualities are gonna happen. One, we get there, they're like, they just dust me. All right. Bye, bill. Thanks, Um, second is I'm gonna be let into this world of, uh, celebrity where we're just out, just, just killing it. Right. Um, and third is these are just a bunch of geeky guys who just sit around and play board games, like, uh, the Hansen Brothers. Um, which one do you think happened? Four. You became lifelong best friends with Jason. Uh, was it three? It was three really? Now, that's not to say we went out for nice dinners. What was also interesting is Jason actually kind of reveled at that point. Nobody knew who he was. He could walk freely and people, or, you know, one, once in a blue moon someone would stopped. There was no SNL over in, uh, in, in the uk. So, um, you know, we went out for some nice dinners, but by and large we're back at the hotel playing board games. Glad you had that experience. Yeah. Sounds, you, sounds like you worked for it. Yeah. I feel like I heard that So that's a, a great story of a campaign that, that really made out. Well. Can you tell us one that, um, you feel like didn't hit over the way that you expected it or, um, you know, no regrets, but you know, what, what do you think was, you know, your biggest miss on one? Well, um, I don't have misses, no. Um, well, I will say fortunately, at least, you know, there's nothing that was like a, a a, a tank. There's some ones that sort of never made it to air because they were a little too over the edge and yeah. You know, if this ever sees the light of day someone's getting fired. Um, there were those moments. We had one with, uh, um, Mike Tyson babysitting for John Krock. I don't know how I'd talk his agent into letting us what? Yes. After he got outta jail. I mean, it, it, please tell me there's film of this somewhere, uh, the spot exists, uh, if you Google at Fox Sports was for the best stamp sports show. Uh, and, um, uh, yeah, it just, uh, it was one where they said, if this thing airs, someone's giving. Another one was, uh, a, a print ad that, um, it was, i, I, I feel almost guilty 'cause it was almost like pulling the wool over, but. It was one of these distribution battle things with cable companies, and we came up with an ad that said, um, Hey, sports fans, your package is about to get smaller. And it was a picture of a jock strap. I will leave out the name of the, the distributor, but ads shipped. They were approved. I, I just don't think, I won't take either. I don't think people realize really what the subtext was when, when it was approved and then someone caught onto it later. Hard to miss. I didn't hide it. Like there was one, even even the campaign I'm doing right now, there's like one little line in there that was a little subversive, um, in my book. My current boss said, take the line out. You can keep the shot in, but you gotta take the line out. He goes, I love that rascal in you. You know? So I was like, you put it out there if you know, so I'm willing, again, willing to take creative risk as well. Well, bill, you've been real generous with time and we're super grateful. We, I really appreciate all this time. It's really, it's fantastic. Yeah, it's great conversation. Thank you so much. Awesome, awesome stuff from Bill. What an interesting career. Yeah, I mean, he is done so many things. He's not been afraid to, to take big swings and, uh, and the right risks and, and how to kind of manage an organization to be able to, um, you know, take leaps and bounds and, and really just kind of keep everybody aligned and, and build that trust in an organization. Yeah. Yeah. Really, really impressive lessons about how to sell stuff in there. I also was. Just shocked to hear the, the, that was news to me that, uh, Jason Sudeikis as Ted Lasso was not the first or second or even third choice for that campaign to launch the Premier League. Yeah, that was, that was, that was interesting to find out. Yeah. I, I hope, I hope this isn't how Jason Sudeikis is finding that out. nice. He's probably listening after all. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Well, and if he's not, maybe he's our next, uh, participant in Dear Hopelessly Unattainable guest. Oh. Well that can be maybe your next Dear Hopelessly unattainable guest, but it's my turn to go next. Okay. What do you got? Alright, so are you ready? Here is my pitch to our next Hopelessly Unattainable guest. While we're waiting on Tim Cook. What? What do you got? Okay. Oh wait, I forgot to tell you. Uh, Tim called. He's not free. Uh, alright, here we go. Dear Taylor Swift, oh gosh. Hold for a loss. It is with great pleasure. I invite you to join me and my co-host, Brian Marks on Snap Decisions, the podcast I'm sure you've already heard about. On your way to being music's biggest star and a cultural icon, you surely faced some huge forks in the road where your own snap decisions changed the trajectory of your career. Your decision to pursue the pop genre over country, buying back the rights to your master recordings and then reinventing your own work boldly standing up for others who don't always have such a big voice, and even your decision to not invest in FTX when other celebrities were happily accepting huge endorsement deals before that company crashed and burned. Just like you, Brian and I grew up in the Philly area, and you and I go. Way back to the time when I saw your 17 year old self performing at a corporate gig. You're a young woman with a giant steel guitar playing to a small group of corporate types on a side stage. While the masses were waiting for the hollow busk of Credence Clearwater Revival to play. I was the guy standing about 10 row to your left wearing jeans, a blue button down shirt, and a blazer. Sure, you're probably considering an appearance on Travis and Jason Kelsey's New Heights podcast. That's too obvious and too expected. Make the bold decision and join Snap decisions. Yours truly. John Young and Brian Marks the Snap decisions team. What do you think? We got a chance. Wow. I think we got a chance. You know, I wanna see, I wanna get Taylor's version of things. Stop, snap You, you don't think she remembers me? I, you have a little too much detail in there from, from that old. From that many years ago. Yeah. I have no idea what I was wearing, but that's a pretty safe guess. Yeah, that's great. That's great. Yeah. Well, hey, that's what this is all about. Let's, let's take out the big bats and, and go for it. Let's see, uh, let's see if we can edge out the Kelsey's exactly like you said. Mood shots, baby. Mood shots. Well, yeah. All right, well, let's wrap this thing up. Let's do it. How do we, how do we wrap? You say goodbye. I think we just say goodbye. It's been real. Hey Brian. Thanks. Thank you. Bye.