Foreign.

Welcome to theology.

Throwdown.

We, the Christian podcast community of podcasters, gather to discuss our theological differences with love and charity.

This is a ministry of striving for eternity.

Well, we are live apologetics live here to answer your most challenging questions you have about God and the Bible.

And some of you are going, wait a minute, Andrew, did you mess up the introduction?

Well, it would not be unusual for me to mess things up.

I am your host, Andrew Rapoport, but I'm also the host of Theology Throwdown.

And what we wanted to do tonight is, well, we decided to try to see with our Theology Throwdown, which is a once a month podcast we do at the Christian podcast community where we discuss different theological differences with love and charity to show how we can disagree with one another and not, well, do name calling and things like that.

And so what we wanted to do is combine both Apologetics Live and our Theology Throwdown.

And we actually have a little bit of a twist on this because we have some other podcasters who also we.

I was going to talk about the same topic with them and they were like, hey, we could do it this week.

I was like, all right, then we're just going to combine this together.

It'll be a lot more fun this way.

But the topic tonight that we are going to discuss as bring folks in is going to be how should Christians respond to the nation of Israel?

We want to try to give a biblical and a theological examination.

This is.

Oh, I would love to say that this is not a hot topic.

I mean, in my mind it shouldn't be controversial, but it seems to be.

So maybe we'll get to discuss some of that.

Let me bring in the folks one at a time as they had joined.

I'm gonna, we're gonna see if the technology works.

First with Troy.

Hello, welcome.

Can you hear me?

I can, if you don't mind, as we usually do on Theology Throwdown, just introduce yourself so that people on audio get to hear your voice and your podcast.

I'm Troy Skinner.

I host the Faith Debate.

It's a radio show that has doubled as a podcast since the year 2004.

It's a panel discussion format that's actually very much like Theology Throwdown or a little bit of Apologize Live even, I guess.

However, the guests, unlike Theology Throwdown, the guests, the Faith Debate are not always Christian.

And so we dialogue in both an intra faith and interfaith context.

I'm on a variety of social media platforms, by the way, as Troy Skinner, but on Twitter, somebody stole my name and so there.

My handle is hetroyskinner, because there's only one.

And if you want to connect with the show or connect with me, the one stop shop for doing that is householdoffaithinchrist.com.

i know it's a mouthful, but Household offaith in Christ.com, if there was only.

One Troy Skinner, that person wouldn't have gotten your handle.

Just saying.

All right, let me.

Let me.

And, and I'm just going to say for each of you guys, just mute yourself when you're not.

When you're not speaking.

Let me bring Seth in.

Seth, introduce yourself.

And.

And you kind of have a podcast there with another cohort that's backstage there.

But, you know, why don't you introduce yourself?

And also in this case, with that introduce maybe.

And I was going to ask Jeff to do it, but you got in first.

The Truth Fellowship.

Oh, yep.

It's good to be with you guys.

Yeah.

And good to see you, Andrew.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So my name is Pastor Seth Brickley.

I Pastor Eureka Baptist, which is in Wisconsin.

And yeah, you mentioned Jeff Cleaver.

So Jeff and I, Jeff's course in New Jersey, and we.

We do the Tearing down the High Places podcast, and he does it weekly.

I actually, I join them once a month.

And we always have good conversations on that program.

And, you know, we.

We talk about the issues of the day.

You know, we want to bring the word of God to bear on the issues of the day.

And.

And like the name says, we want to tear down the high places that are out there.

So the Truth Fellowship.

And of course, Andrew, you're a part of the Truth Fellowship, and Jeff Cleaver is a part of the Truth fellowship.

There's actually 12 of us.

Very interesting number there.

Yeah, there's 12 of us.

It was not planned that way.

It was not planned that way.

Yeah, we're not saying that we're the 12 disciples, but it is interesting.

But, yeah, so you know this.

I counted nine different states, the people who are involved with the Truth Fellowship, which is very interesting.

I mean, all over the country.

And the Lord providentially connected all of us, and a lot of the guys are former free Church guys who really linked arms with Jeff Clearer when he.

When he wrote the book, woke Free Church.

And once a month there was a zoom call.

It caused no controversy.

He didn't get in trouble for that at all.

Yeah, yeah, that's right.

Yeah.

And Jeff could explain that story maybe briefly here.

But.

But yeah, so we, we linked arms with him, and then.

And then we connected with guys like Russell Fuller and of course you, Andrew, and a couple other guys who are not free church guys.

Yeah.

So it's really cross denominational, but the truth fellowship is about speaking the truth in these days.

Shepherds need to speak clearly in these.

These very confusing times.

A lot of us, you know, we were united during the social justice stuff.

We're very anti social justice.

And now one of our distinctives, we actually have 13 distinctives.

One of our distinctives is we're speaking out against what they.

What's been called the woke.

Right.

You know, this anti Israel, anti Jewish rhetoric out there that we'll probably talk about a little bit here today maybe.

But, yeah, we.

We have that distinctive.

So we're, you know, we want to be consistently biblical and we want to be a help to others in being used by the Lord to be clear voices in these days.

Yeah.

Let me bring in next.

Rebecca, you're in next.

Why don't you introduce yourself and your podcast?

Yeah.

Oh, hi, everyone.

I am Rebecca Burschwinger, and I am the host of One Little Candle podcast.

One Little Candle is a monthly podcast that focuses on equipping Christians to navigate the spiritual and the cultural challenges that are out there with biblical truth.

By providing, you know, during the episode, I provide practical ways in which believers can strengthen their faith and be a light in the darkness in their.

In their everyday lives.

So we cover.

Cover a lot of subjects, and if.

Anyone who listens to One Little Candle knows that, well, Rebecca is going to have a lot to talk about on this topic.

I'm just saying I'm not a prophet.

Well, I don't know.

I'm actually.

I'm here to actually listen to what everyone has to say and learn.

Yeah, but I know you've done a lot.

Yeah, I've done.

I have done episodes on Israel.

I do love Israel.

And actually I'm going there this year, the end of October.

So.

Yeah, without me, I can't believe.

All right, let me.

Let me bring in the last person that we have backstage, and that is.

And I just muted you, Rebecca.

Just unmute as you need.

My friend and fellow New Jersey, in which, you know, Christians in New Jersey, we got to stick together.

Pastor Jeff, how are you, sir?

Well, you are muted.

He is a professional podcaster, folks.

I. I've unmuted him.

I can see he's not muted on my end.

I'm just.

No, we still don't hear you.

Let's see.

Let me look at your settings.

That's the one nice thing about this tool is at least.

I could check the settings here.

The settings look good here.

It looks like you're all.

So is the.

Is your mics muted on your end?

Okay.

He's saying no.

Let's see.

Let me try muting and unmuting.

Try now.

Nope.

I can see that you're saying, check, check, check.

At least I can read lips.

But I'm wondering.

Okay, you might.

Do you want to try getting out and coming back in and we'll talk about you while you're gone?

You saw, he gave us some thumbs up, Seth, so we could do that now?

All right.

While we're waiting for him to come back in, let me.

I. I do want to.

There is a.

A couple things.

Sometimes on Apologetics Live, we deal with some things in our culture or in the news that we just want to deal with and give a Christian perspective.

So with that, let me just talk, because it is an issue that I hope no one else has to deal with this week.

All right, let's see.

It sounds like we can hear Jeff now.

Can we hear you?

Can you hear me?

Yes, we can.

All right, good.

All right, so let me.

I'll come back to that issue that I was gonna bring up, and we'll let Jeff.

Jeff, introduce yourself.

Your.

Where you Pastor.

Your podcast that Seth kind of comes on and.

And, you know, makes all you guys look bad and, you know, and you.

You're.

I think, really the truth fellowship is an idea of both you and.

And Seth.

So if there's anything you want to add about that, go forward.

All right.

Yeah, I'm Pastor Jeff Clewer.

I'm out in Mount Laurel, New Jersey.

And yeah, we have a church here called Cornerstone Church.

You can check it out@cornerstonesj.org which is also where you can get tearing down high places.

Tdhp.

That's our podcast.

Yep.

Seth is on once a month.

We cover a number of different issues, especially things like the WOKE movement and tearing down those kind of high places.

But we agree that the big threat right now is actually rising way off to the right instead of off to the left.

And that is people who are denigrating Jewish people and the nation of Israel.

And so we think that we need to have a voice into that conversation.

And so, you know, you're saying dangers that we have, we're just going to mute you.

You guys could just unmute anytime you want to speak.

It's just that with the con, you know, the con, there's difference for those that are.

Have an interest in podcasting.

Difference between condensing mics and dynamic mics and what condensing mics do.

And that's what right now, Seth and Pastor Jeff have what they're doing.

I should say Pastor Seth, Pastor Jeff.

But condensing mic, actually, if you're not speaking, it reaches out to try to hear out to see is there something out there, someone speaking.

That's why you end up hearing.

If someone has a condensing mic, you can almost always tell because when they stop speaking and the mic is still on, you start hearing that background noise.

That's, that's what, that, what causes that.

I might be able to shut that off in the settings.

So let, Let me just.

Ah, you already have it turned off or turn the background noises turned on.

All right, so one of the things.

And you know, we have two pastors here.

Troy was a pastor.

He's not pastoring currently unless something's changed since I've, he came and visited me a few months ago.

But, you know, as pastors, I think that you guys, you know, have to have a plan.

I, I sat down Wednesday night with my pastor, and I think every one of you listening should sit down with your pastor because something happened last Sunday that is very grievous and very concerning to me with the church.

So before we get into discussing Israel and that's the fact that you had a bunch of Marxists, insurrectionists go into a church and disrupt the church service.

Now, keep in mind, we, we have a government under Joe Biden that had decided if you pray as a grandmother was doing, just praying outside of an abortion clinic, that was a violation of the FACE Act.

And the, the FACE act, if you don't know, is a thing that was actually designed to prevent people from going to abortion clinics and doing what they would say.

Protesting biblical people evangelize.

That's what they do out there.

The, the, that's the real thing.

And trying to address the, the, you know, horror of what abortion is.

So they created the FACE act.

But to get it passed, they not only included abortion clinics, but they included churches.

And so what you see is a grandmother who's got four and a half years in jail because she was praying outside of an abortion clinic.

And here you had dozens of people that went into a church and disrupted the service, didn't allow the service to go on people.

It took 45 minutes.

The police came and basically did nothing.

I have not seen much reaction.

I, I know that one of the people that was most vocal is been arrested.

That's, that's, it That I, I've heard may a few others.

But the issue I have for everybody in every church is the fact that.

Did everybody else just lose the audio?

Can you not hear me, folks?

Can, can folks listen or here, let's see.

I can hear.

I can hear you fine.

I can hear you.

All right.

Poor Troy.

He has been fighting with technology all night.

So.

All right, okay.

Because I can't hear Andrew all of a sudden.

That's why.

All right, well, I don't know why.

All right, we'll have to figure that one out.

So the, the issue that I see is this, folks.

There was not a, an extreme backlash like you saw the, the democrats do after January 6th that put many conservatives to, to fear that they would be arrested and, and to.

And it did what they wanted.

It got, you know, Democrats got all the conservatives to run and hide so that they wouldn't be out protesting their stealing of an election.

Oh, did I give away my position on that?

Sorry.

But the, the thing is this.

There hasn't been a reaction from the right against these people.

And I fear that they're going to see this as an opportunity to go into many churches this Sunday and attempt to disrupt lots of churches.

And my pastor was like, ah, you know, they'll probably only go to the big churches.

We're small potatoes.

And I, I said, no, that's actually who they're going to go to because the smaller churches are, are.

Don't usually have security.

So this is more a public service announcement to all of you listening.

Encourage your churches.

I, I'm.

What we're.

What I encouraged pastor to do at my church.

He's going to talk to the security team.

And what we're probably going to do is we always lock the doors during service and we keep people at the doors to open them for people coming in.

But I think we're just going to keep the doors locked and closed and just have people open them for, for people that come in.

And if we see a big group of people coming in, just keep the doors closed.

You know, now if you.

What happened in Minnesota, they snuck in, they had a couple people.

Here's a thing to also notice.

Where did they sit when they sat right in the middle of a pew or the middle of a row so that people couldn't.

People would, would basically it'd be hard to move, you know, go and move them out for security.

Move them out.

So just some things to be concerned with.

I, I think I just really have a concern.

If you're listening, they were targeting it, because it was a church.

You notice they didn't go into any mosques.

And I do have to, for the record, I did this, I said this on, on Facebook.

But I have to be consistent.

If you heard the rhetoric that those guys were saying, and I'm, I'm going to open this up to all you guys, see if.

Talk on this for a few minutes first before we get to Israel.

But the, the rhetoric that we heard from the insurrectionist mob of Marxists in that church in, in Minnesota was no different than this language you heard from.

Aha.

When they go in and protest outside of churches and demand that if there's, that the churches should be doing more, that people aren't real Christians if they're not outside the abortion clinics and they were disrupting services and they're outside protesting outside of churches.

So I need to be consistent and say I'll call it out on either side, which, either side is wrong.

If it's wrong, it's wrong.

And I think, you know, when we want to stand up for truth, we have to stand up for truth, even if it's coming from our side.

And that's going to be some of the things you heard from both Pastor Seth and Pastor Jeff today.

Talk about.

It's.

There's some things.

This topic is a big topic in our own circles.

You know, within Christian circles.

We always knew it used to be an issue, you know, from the left, but now all of a sudden it's an issue from, from the right.

So the Minnesota Church, I don't know if any of you want to say anything about that briefly.

You can just unmute yourself and go for it.

All right.

I guess not.

Oh, go ahead, Seth.

Well, I'm a, I'm a native Minnesotan, so maybe I should say something here.

I grew up in the Twin Cities.

Lived, Lived there the first 30 years of my life.

Really grew up there.

You would know how to pronounce it.

It's Minnesota.

Yeah, that's right.

Yeah.

Corrects it.

Yeah, he's from there.

But, but yeah, the, the church was in St. Paul where this happened.

It was actually a plant of Bethlehem Baptist where John Piper pastored.

So, so I didn't know that.

Very, very interesting.

Yeah.

Is it a Southern Baptist church?

Because I thought I heard.

Yes, Baptist church.

City's church is a Baptist.

I mean, is it Southern Baptist?

It's, it's not Southern Baptist.

It is Converge, which, which used to be the Baptist General Conference.

Okay.

But, yeah, yeah.

So the I, I, what you're saying here is, is Accurate.

I mean, we, you know, there's private property rights, you know, that people have.

You can't, you can't infringe on those.

And of course, the right to assemble, right, the First Amendment, they're.

They're meeting there and people just come in and disrupt them.

And in the police in these cities, their hands are tied.

You know, even if you have a good officer, he knows that, that his bosses don't have his back.

What the police should have done is, you know, they should have escorted those people out.

Sadly, that's not what took place.

So, yeah, really, really sad situation.

But, yeah, we do need to be ready for this.

And, you know, if we live in a county where we have good, a good sheriff, where the rule of law is actually respected, you know, the police will have our back.

But in some of these places, you might be on your own.

Yep.

Yeah.

You know.

Okay, so you bring up a couple things for folks to realize.

A church is actually public property because a church is a public building, a public entity.

However, just like a mall or a, you know, any, anything like that.

I'm just going to mute you, Seth there.

Sorry.

You can unmute when you start talking, but it is.

But like a mall, we can't.

You can't just walk in and evangelize in a mall.

We found this out.

Unless they have what's called a.

It's called like a location means and times policy.

And the church has that.

And so it's not.

The issue is not coming in and, you know, to the church.

But, and this is where it's really funny because you know that the reporter, the supposed reporter, the fired CNN reporter was saying he was just doing journalism and, and he said they're coming after him because he's black.

He's a black man.

Well, he's going to be charged probably under the Klux Klan law, which I think just think is ironic because there actually are.

There's an actual law in the books that says that you cannot go into a church to disrupt it and prevent the service from going on because the Klux Klan, by the way, Klux Klan, those are Democrats.

That's who founded it.

Just saying.

But the Klux Klan would go into churches and, and disrupt it.

And so they passed a law saying that you can't disrupt the church service.

And it's called the Klu Clan Loss.

So, yeah, so there are different things.

The, the, the Face act, the Ku Kuk Klan law prevents them from doing this, but it, but as Pastor Seth said, I mean, there is an issue with preventing people from, from worshiping.

And, and so there's, there's a, a lot, I mean they're, they're saying that they didn't do anything wrong.

They're just protesting as they, you know, admitted that people are horrified and scared and feeling, well, let's use the proper word, terrorized by these insurrectionists.

So, so let's get to tonight's topic.

Max Peek is, is just, he's right on, on cue.

He's saying, so Andrew's going to be arguing the anti Israel position, right?

He knows better.

No, I won't be arguing that position.

But this, this is something that, you know, when we look at the, the state of Israel, I think there's a couple things in play and I'm going to open this up as the first question.

I'm going to give my view and then let you guys, I'll ask each of you, you, you go, we'll go around and, and see what you think.

But the question really is why are we seeing whether you want to call it an attack or a changing of the view of Israel just within the last couple of years that we haven't seen in Christianity?

And so I'm going to give you, I'll give you my view up front.

I think that it comes out of an over emphasis of Covenant theology for folks who don't know Covenant theology and dispensational theology.

Dispensationalism would see a separation between Israel and the church and Covenant theology would see more of a union.

But I think that it's a more radical view of Covenant theology where they've, they're trying to say that there is no Israel anymore.

As I have heard said that the, the people of God are the church, that the, the church in the Old Testament was called Israel and the church today is New Testament Israel.

And so I think that that theology has been what's sparked over into this.

I do think it all started with October 7th and are people arguing for Palestine, people not liking what they think they feel the nation of Israel and Netanyahu are doing?

And they've I think mixed their theology and polit brought that together.

That's what I think.

But we'll start, start with you, Pastor Seth.

What, what are your thoughts?

Why do, do you think we're seeing this the so recently?

Oh, you gotta hold it.

I'll unmute you.

There you go.

That's such an interesting question because I, I think there's, there's a, there's got to be an, several reasons why this is Taking place.

And, you know, because.

Why.

Why now, I guess is.

Maybe is.

Is one way to ask it, right?

Because.

Because Jewish hatred is nothing new.

It's something that's.

That's been here since the beginning of.

Since Abraham, right, 4, 000 years ago.

You know, it's.

One of my friends, he's a Jewish friend of mine.

He.

He sent me a chart a while back that showed the increase of attacks on Jewish people anywhere from graffiti to murder.

It's a wide spectrum.

But what the chart showed is since 2020, the increase is significant, the Jewish hatred.

So.

And I'm not sure if you get.

You guys have considered this, but it's.

It seems like.

It seems like since 2020, the Internet has exploded in ways we, we haven't seen before, where people no longer trust what they've heard before.

And, and you know, to a certain level that, you know that that's understandable, right, because there was a lot of.

A lot of.

With COVID there was a lot of lies that were told, and we know that.

But, you know, it seems like there's.

There's a neglect of scripture, there's a neglect of history, and, and.

And now what's taking place is some of these big podcasters on the Internet, they are the authority, and no matter what they say, it's not questioned.

And, and they're.

They're stirring up hatred towards.

Towards Jewish people, you know, so.

So it's.

I think there's.

I think there is a connection there between just the lack of trust in what they've heard before, and they're entertaining new ideas and without really questioning them, without looking at history, without looking at the Bible, what does the Bible say about Israel?

What does the Bible say about, you know, Satan and his.

His designs against God's plans?

Right?

So.

So I think that's something to consider.

You know, one of the, One of the things to consider, but just in general, I mean, Satan hates Israel, and he hates Israel because he understands what the Bible says.

He understands how the world is going to end.

He understands that is Israel is the central focus of how the world is going to end.

So with that in mind, you know, he.

He does not want to see this people prosper, this people be preserved.

He does not want to see God's plan be accomplished through them, right?

So he wants to annihilate them.

And so, you know, Islam is the chief, kind of the chief movement religion that he's using to.

To threaten them.

But a lot of these people on the right, all of a sudden have this favorable, favorable view towards Islam and they view Israel as the problem.

Right.

So.

So that's very fascinating.

Something we haven't seen really before until the last couple years.

Yeah, I agree.

Let's, let's see.

Rebecca, I'll unmute you.

You're next.

There's terrible stuff sound there.

Yeah, you know, it's.

I was not aware back in 2020 how much the anti Semitism was increasing.

Obviously it was, but I mean I, I first began to notice it after October 7th especially.

Obviously what was simmering underneath is really just exploded.

But as far as the reason behind it, I think the further we get into the end times and which I believe we are in, I think the more you're going to see this.

It's demonic.

I think most of it, most of it is spiritual.

But whether they be unbelievers or even those who profess the name of Christ, professing Christians, I think a lot of this is biblical illiteracy.

You know, I think it stems from that as well too.

People don't really understand any of the divine mandates when it comes to Israel.

Yeah, no, you make some good points.

Let us move on to who is in here.

Next was Troy.

Let's go with Troy.

I'll unmute you.

Oh, you have to unmute yourself.

I think I'm unmuted.

Yep, there we go.

Yep.

Okay.

I think that there's such a complexities, a combination of complexities here.

I don't think we can point our finger at any one thing.

I think it's a cocktail of combinations.

Andrew, if your idea is on the right track at all, I'm not sure that I would accept that.

But it would certainly be sort of a hyper covenant theology.

It wouldn't be true covenant theology that's being applied here, but perhaps that is part of it.

But I think on the other hand, I think part of it could also be the hyper Zionist disposational position that's being reacted against in a knee jerk fashion where they want to blame the boomer cons who have swallowed the Zionist idea of whole cloth without worrying about their felt needs in their lives and they want to blame somebody.

But I don't think that that's it either.

I think really what's happened a number of years ago, not that many years ago, just a few years ago, Andy Stanley became rather infamous for a quote about unhitching from the Old Testament.

I think what's going on right now, particularly some of the younger angry men that are into this, whatever you want to call it the new right, the woke right, you know, radical Christian nationalist element that's out there.

I think that they're unhitching from the entire Bible.

They're not embracing some sort of bad form of covenant theology or, or necessarily pushing back against a bad form of dispensational theology.

I think they're just rejecting theology and they're masquerading as Christians, a lot of them, but I don't think that they really are.

I think instead the closest thing that they're embracing as a Christian would be the idea of general revelation.

They're big into natural law, they're becoming Thomists.

They're really kind of rejecting Protestantism, looking for a strong man to come in, looking for new ideas.

And unfortunately the church has left the door open for that in a, in a large scale fashion because the world came unglued a number of years ago.

We couldn't trust anybody anymore, couldn't trust any institutions.

Right?

You can't just trust the government, you can't trust the media, you can't trust your doctor, you can't trust anything.

And people felt like they couldn't trust their pastors all of a sudden because their pastors have gone woke and so they're trying to find the ideas on their own and they're turned into YouTube sensations or book authors who have gotten a little bit of traction with books that they've written in recent years or whatever.

I think it's mostly driven by an anger that has made them susceptible as a group to any sort of conspiracy that will be a salve for their hurts.

They want to blame somebody.

And that's why I get.

He gets a lot of.

James Lindsay gets a lot of pushback for having coined the woke right moniker.

And I understand why.

Although I gotta say, in fairness to the atheist friend, James Lindsay, your agnostic friend, that he's not far off, I don't think, because if you were to create a schematic and compare what wokeism is on the left and then have a corollary on the right, there'd be a lot that matches up.

And a lot of it's driven by anger at the world having done me wrong and I'm going to blame somebody.

And so the WOKE left blamed white heterosexual male Christians and the woke right, if you want to even use that label, they're blaming the Jews, you know, and it's not the Jews fault and it's not the white heterosexual Christian male's fault either.

But they're just floundering, lashing out and Some of the better pastors are trying to reign that in, and they're not being heard.

You're just being weak.

You're being squished.

You know, you.

You don't understand what's going on.

You don't know what it's like to be 28 years old and have no future.

I can't get a woman who wants to date me.

I'm not gonna be able to raise a family.

I can't afford to buy a house.

I have no career.

And you know why?

Because of the Jewish Jews.

Because of the boomer cons who have bought into all the Jews lives the last generation and a half.

So I don't know that it has anything specifically to do with theology other than an outright rejection of biblical Christian theology.

Okay.

Yeah.

And if I thought I clarified and I didn't say all covenant theologians, I thought I said extreme, but I.

Thank you, Troy, for picking that up.

Yeah, it's not all covenant theologians, but I do think it is an extreme version out coming or outworking of.

Of their.

The covenant theology where they've.

They've gone hyper and want to now cut off Israel.

And there's.

There's a person who contacted me that told me that Israel is not a state today.

There's no country named Israel.

And I was like, what do you call that region that's over there, but between Jordan and what.

What is that called?

He's like, Palestine.

Yeah.

Okay.

And flat earthers, too.

Yeah.

Well, I was like, what's the.

What's the United States?

Because that wasn't called the United States until we founded it and rebelled against, you know, the uk, which, by the way, it's the UK that gave that land, that conquered that land and named it Israel.

Just saying there was no land of Palestine.

There's no money in Palestine.

There's no language of palest Palestine.

There's no culture of Palestine.

It was an area, and there was a mixed culture and.

And all of that, you know, between Muslims and Jews at the time.

So let's go to Pastor Jeff.

Let me.

Let me unmute you.

What do you.

What do you think is the cause of it?

Pastor Jeff?

I think you guys are right over the target.

I do think there is kind of that victim sense within the generation that is looking for someone to blame for problems that they're experiencing.

I mean, the same thing happened in the 1930s when Germans were looking for somebody to blame, and with the leadership of Adolf Hitler, they rallied around Mein Kampf and they blamed the Jews at that time.

For all the struggles of Germany.

And the result was like a snowball that once again, once it was set in motion, it gained more and more momentum.

So that's a phenomenon that we've seen already, and I think we're starting to see it again.

Hopefully it won't gain the kind of momentum that it got in Germany at that time.

But it's clearly a demonic thing.

So on one hand you have this almost inexplicable phenomenon that people would begin to blame the Jews for everything and you have just this demonic hatred.

But on the other hand, there are some explanations when that begins to move and the snowball starts to roll down the hill.

People notice that it's popular.

So I hate to name names, but I kind of do that from time to time.

A guy like Joel Webbin.

Andrew, I would agree with you that his covenant theology is no hedge to.

His wrong headedness regarding Israel.

So again, dispensational understanding of scripture would have a more careful appreciation of Jeremiah chapter 3 or Daniel chapter 9, or how the New Testament speaks of Israel.

So his theology is part of the problem.

But I think the larger problem is the reward system.

Kind of like the dopamine hit that he gets when he says something about Israel.

And all of a sudden he gets.

A lot of fanfare and new subscribers.

And before long his whole platform transitions from like a broad evangelical commentary podcast.

To very much targeted against Jews.

It's like a reward system.

And I think that's like a snowball that's rolling in the culture right now.

A lot of people have picked up on that.

They see Nick Fuentes, they see Candace Owens, Tucker Carlson, and it's very easy to jump on a bandwagon when you're being rewarded like that.

So that's kind of the earthly picture of what's happening.

It's a momentum thing, it's a platform thing, it's really a pride thing.

And spiritually you do have the element of theology.

I think dispensationalism, maybe covenant theology is not the problem, but it lacks the hedge of protection that dispensationalism would give.

So you have that from the spiritual perspective, but even deeper, there is something profoundly demonic going on in the culture.

And you know, we're approaching the end times.

But the church has to be the.

Ones to restrain this demonic power, the spirit of the age, which is really The Antichrist spirit.

Second Thessalonians 2, 6, 8.

I interpret that to be the church.

With the Holy Spirit.

Spirit indwelling us, restrains the.

The antichrist spirit in the culture.

So it's really up to us by.

The spirit to speak out against the.

Lies and hold back this rising tide.

Of hatred against the Jews.

And you're seeing the comments there that I'm putting up several in the chat, are agreeing with you folks that are regular here.

You, you obviously see why I love Jeff, right?

I mean not only from Jersey, fellow pastor, but a dispensationalist.

If he could just give up his charismatic continuationism, it'd be great.

He does have a book actually.

I think if you guys go to Amazon and just search for, for Jeff Clower, he's got like a book a month coming out.

I, you know, just, just saying for the.

So yeah, and Andrew, to be fair, when I, when I wrote, I wrote a book called Fan into Flame about the charismatic gifts, I have probably just as hard on the sensationalists charismatic movement as I think the extreme of cessationism.

Yeah, yeah.

So Jeff, let me, let me ask you this next question.

What do you see as the distinction between biblical Israel and the modern nation state of Israel?

So I'm making, because this I think is where we discuss this.

The real heart is there was already someone that asked in the chat about if I can find it quickly, here we go.

Who is Israel According to Romans 9, 6?

And Romans 9.

6 says, but it is not enough.

But it is not as though the word of God has failed, for they are not all Israel who descended from Israel.

And so as we think of that, that passage, can you help us?

What is the distinction between this country we know of Israel today and biblical Israel?

That's a very important question.

I think dispensationalists and covenant theologians would answer that very differently.

So I think that God has miraculously brought the nation Israel back into existence, even born in a day as Isaiah 66 said would happen.

And that was May 14, 1948.

I think National Israel is Israel.

It's not spiritual Israel because not all who are of the the flesh of Abraham are actually born again Christians.

But a couple things about that.

The, the nation Israel is described in Romans 9, verses 1 to 5, according to Things that they have, even though.

They lack faith in Christ.

So they still have certain things.

They have the covenants, the promises that were given.

But it's not that everybody who's of Israel is Israel in the sense of being born again.

So you do have to make that.

Distinction between who is genuinely the saved, the children of God in that context and who is national Israel.

Now, as you read obviously Romans 9 through 11 as a unit.

You see that God will still deal with ethnic Israel and we are not to boast over ethnic, national, largely disbelieving Israel.

So that's the distinction right there as a dispensationalist, but I think biblically, not just because of my school of theology, but I think it's the right handling of scripture to see that God has providentially brought the nation back into the land.

Yeah, okay, let's go to, let's see, let's go to.

Next we'll go to Pastor Seth and then to Rebecca and Troy.

So Seth, what are your thoughts?

Yeah, yeah, I, you know, I do agree with what Jeff said and I, it's interesting because I do know dispensationalists who, who don't see any significance with 1948.

They don't see any significance with Israel in the land.

And of course our views are going to be different as we look at the modern nation state of Israel, just based off of those convictions.

And Jeff mentioned Isaiah 66, 8, a nation that is born in one day.

And it's remarkable when you think about 1948, in one day they became a nation.

And typically nations become nations because they fight to become nations.

But Israel was, you know, through the United nations, proclaim the nation.

But they had to fight to maintain themselves as a nation, of course.

And that's been their history.

Right.

They're fighting for their own survival.

Yeah, so, so you look at present day Israel, it, you know, you look at those prophecies in Ezekiel where, where they're brought back into the land.

I, I, I don't know exactly.

At least what's taking place is setting the table.

I think that, I think there will be more Jewish people who will go to the land, you know, before the end.

But, but there were millions that, that were drawn to the land back in 1948 and after that, which is, which is, which is truly remarkable to think about.

And so I, I think when Christians look at that and they don't see any significance with it, I think it defies reality, defies common sense.

And, and I think it does defy and murkies the waters of scripture to not see that.

Because when you look at the book of Deuteronomy, one of the punishments for the people of Israel was exile.

Of course we saw that in, when, when Nebuchadnezzar and the Babylonians took him into exile.

And then of course, it happened again in the first century and the second century when the temple was destroyed.

Destroyed.

And then the People were scattered again.

So if the Lord is going to bring millions of people back into the land, we should see that as blessing.

Why else would all them have been brought back into the land?

Right.

So, and you look at, and you look too at the end times prophecies.

Where is Jesus going to return to Jerusalem?

The Mount of Olives.

It even says the percentage of Israel that's going to be saved.

It's going to be one third of Israel is going to be saved.

And it says in Zechariah 12:10, they will look on me whom they have pierced.

So they're gonna, they're gonna look on him as he comes back to Jerusalem.

So there's going to be see a large population of Israel in the land when Jesus returns.

And that, you know, and that at minimum the stage has been set at this point.

I do not see them being wiped out.

I see the Lord preserving them in the land.

We of course, don't know how long it's going to be, but, but it could be very close.

I do think that them going into the land in 1948 was, it was a clear signal that the end is near.

Now the Lord is patient, but the end is near and Christ is going to come back and they will look on him whom they have pierced.

Yeah, I'm not sure I can agree with all of it, but that's okay.

That's what we do here.

So let me bring Rebecca in.

Rebecca.

Yeah, so I just got thinking about the previous question.

Just kind of wanted to comment on that real quick about all the anti Semitism that we've seen on the rise.

And another thing maybe, and excuse me if someone did already say this or mention it, but I also believe that it is God's that's the catalyst for returning more people to Israel.

So many Jewish people are saying, you know, they're making their alia.

Is that how you say it?

But they, because they don't feel safe.

They, they would feel safer in Israel than they would in, in other countries.

And it's really getting to be that way.

I think that's going to continue to drive more people to go to Israel for the Jews.

But as far as Romans 9, 6 goes, it's obvious.

I mean, God's sovereignty comes into play here.

And I think that's what Paul was stressing is that just because you happen to be ethnically Jewish or, you know, descendant of Abraham, doesn't truly make you part of God's true people.

It's not just lineage, but it's those who come to faith in Jesus Christ and you will have Jewish believers and you will have Gentile believers.

But that doesn't mean that God's covenant promises to Israel that they've been nullified just because of the unbelief of many Jews.

And we know they're actually it's going to be fulfilled in the believing remnants.

And so and I like what Seth said too, because I was thinking the same thing.

If God is, is so done with Israel, then why is Jesus Christ returning to the Mount of Olives when he comes back?

You know, because he's not done with Israel.

He is still going to, you know, Israel will be dealt with.

But yeah, Troy, what are your your thoughts.

In this round ramen format?

There's so many things I'm going to try to quickly hit on like maybe three or four things really fast.

One is a point of clarification, perhaps an apology to you, Andrew.

I wasn't trying to misconstrue the idea that you had painted a broad brush with Covenant theology.

I was just clarifying, I think, the point that you had made and amplifying it, but then adding perhaps the aside that I'm not even sure if there's truth to it.

Then as far as you went, I would agree.

But I'm not even sure that that's really what it is because I'm going to piggyback that comment on what Jeff said.

I think it's Jeff who said it.

He brought up that gadfly that, that grifter, Joel Webbin, so called pastor.

He's disqualified many times over.

He's not a pastor.

I'm not even positive he's a Christian, although only God can know for sure.

But if he's tethered to Covenant theology in any way, he's tethered through it in the same way that Hitler was tethered to Christianity early in his rise to power.

I mean, the guy's a complete charlatan and he doesn't represent anything that's good and true.

At the, at this point in his aims at a lofty career, it's shocking how fast his fall has been.

So those are the first two main points.

A third quick point in the comment section here on the feed, somebody was, I'm not sure, they might have been saying it as a joke, but just in case they weren't saying it as a joke, they said please don't quote Andy Stanley for your position.

So that would have been directed at me.

I was using Andy Stanley as a negative example.

Example.

I'm not Using Andy Stanley to support my position.

Never have, probably never will, unless he comes to repentance in some dramatic way.

So now onto the question that was asked for this, for this round robin.

We're about to, I guess maybe have a real theological theology throwdown here, because I would appear to be in the minority in this room, which is usually I'm the usual, when somebody asks who is Israel?

I mean, I'm not trying to be cheeky or give the Sunday school answer, but the best answer is Jesus is the true Israel.

And so everything flows.

And I bring that up because everything flows from there.

Everybody who's connected and belonging to Christ, therefore is a, spiritually speaking, is a descendant of Abraham.

They are a child of Abraham, as, as important a way as the ethnic people who are connected to Abraham are.

And so I think that, and the reason I was concerned about the connection to covenant theology, because I would lean.

I'm not sure that I'm a hardcore covenant theology guy.

I don't know that I know I would check every single box.

I definitely lean in that direction pretty significantly.

And I would say the covenant theology, properly understood, is most emphasizing the redemptive historical aspects of the Scriptures.

So tying everything to redemptive history.

Christ's move in the God's sovereign plan from the beginning, throughout history as recorded for us in the Bible.

And if you are focused on redemptive history, on the Christian focus, that's throughout all of the pages of, of the Bible.

And you're going to have this kind of a hatred aimed at Jews or the nation of Israel or somebody you don't like, your next door neighbor.

That's not any kind of theology that will be embraced by dispensationalists, covenantalists, anything.

So that's where my pushback was coming from before.

So anyway, put a finer point on this.

Those who are of the faith are the ones who are the sons of Abraham according to Galatians, chapter three.

And so I would say that those who are of the faith are Israel.

That would include those saints from the Old Testament, saints from the New Testament, any saints that will come after us, you know, should the Lord tarry and we pass away and more Christians come along.

Anyone who is of the faith in Christ is a son of Abraham and therefore can be properly understood as Israel.

But of course, we have to define our terms because that, that label is misconstrued or used at least in different ways.

All right, Jeff, you're raising your hand.

You, you want to speak to that?

Yeah, just quickly, I want to say to apologetic Jaws on there.

Yes, the interracial marriage debate with Joel Webbin, God Logic and Ruslan KD is very worth your your watch.

I'm telling you, Ruslan KD and God Logic just absolutely destroyed the no interracial marriage preference that webin and company put out there.

So that was a really helpful debate.

That's online.

Check that out.

I wanted to just interact a little bit with Troy on this.

I would say, brother, that it can be true on one hand that there's a redemptive arc throughout Scripture and that.

Jesus is the true Israel.

So when, when you read the four servant songs of Isaiah 40 up to 53, you see that Christ is the.

True Israel who is fulfilling the servant songs.

But in that ark, that redempt redemptive ark, you don't want to flatten out other passages that are absolutely about national Israel.

Right.

So one of the examples I would think of is in Jeremiah chapter, chapter.

Three, you have God calling Israel to return.

And it's to a spiritual return of repentance, but also to Zion.

But what it talks about in the end times is that the Jewish people will no longer remember or care about the Ark of the Covenant.

That's Jeremiah 3:15.

It won't be missed.

You won't care about the Ark of the Covenant because in Christ there's a fulfillment of all that typology.

The presence of God is now in the person of Christ.

You don't need the Ark of the.

Covenant because you don't need a mercy seat.

The blood of Jesus has sprinkled.

But the very next verse is about Jerusalem, and it's kind of the polar opposite of Jeremiah 3:15.

Jerusalem still is significant.

That's the capital.

That's where the millennial kingdom will still.

See the king, Jesus Christ, reigning in Israel.

So I think that what happens with covenant theology is that in an effort to focus on that grand metanarrative of scripture, where you see the redemptive ark across scripture, you can miss so much of the careful detail that God put into his Word.

And I think that's what dispensationalists have done a better job at noticing.

So that Israel will be a land.

There is a land promise from Genesis 12:3.

It's reiterated in Jeremiah 3:16 that Jerusalem will be the capital and Christ will reign from Jerusalem.

So when we're seeing Israel and the.

Land, we're just looking back carefully at the passages of scripture, not saying you.

Aren'T being careful, but that's why I think that dispensationalism probably has a better grammatic radical historical hermeneutic, whereas the, the redemptive hermeneutic can miss some of that detail.

So just throw that out there because we like debate in our school.

Yeah, well, let me, let me do this.

You know, let me give my view, Troy, and I'm going to ask you to interact with it to see, because this is.

And, and I think, I think I've explained this at least to Seth and Jeff may have heard this, but, and I know the audience here who regularly listens.

And I should.

Let's see.

We, we have a.

Brother Mike is saying blessings everyone.

So he, he's got.

It looks like you got a new YouTube channel there, brother Mike.

B.F. s.F.

Instead of the, your, your old one.

The.

Oh, I forget what it was called now.

Soul and Care Ministry.

I forget.

Sorry brother, but, but yeah, let me, let me work this out because I do find this is maybe a different way of thinking of the, the whole issue of who is Israel?

And I think that this is why I think as, as we work this out, it's always good, especially where there's disagreement to start in areas that we agree and, and then move to disagreement.

And, and as I've explained this to both Covenant theologians and I actually seem to find everyone seems to agree with me.

Covenant theologians tell me I'm really, really leaky dispensationalist.

And the dispensationalists seem to say that, you know, well, that I'm a good dispensationalist because I, because they agree.

But, but let me explain it this way.

So in, as we go through and if you get my book, what do we, what do we believe?

I have a, a chapter on the church, right?

And the word church I work through because it changed over time, right?

The, the word Ecclesia originally in Ephesus was a call of the.

Of all the men for voting.

Okay, that's, that's what it originally how we first find it used.

It then became just a call for, for a meeting.

By the time of the first century after Christ.

It's now being used specifically to define against gathering for the purpose of worshiping God.

And so it became more specific during the Middle Ages.

It became more specific in the identifying what we call the visible or invisible church.

Now sometimes visible is referred to as local and invisible is learned to as universal.

So the visible local church and the invisible universal church.

Now the way those terms are used are to explain that the, the local church is the, the gathering of those that they come together for the purpose of, you know, of worshiping God.

But they recognize that not everybody who goes to a building and that they might call church is a believer.

So the local visible gathering or church is made up of believers and unbelievers.

But the universal or invisible church refers to all believers everywhere in the world at this time.

And so every believer in Christ, whether they're attending church or not, is a, is in the universal invisible church.

So when we see that distinction that there's that local gathering that's made up of believers and unbelievers and in a gathering that or a, a group that is only made up of believers.

So we see that distinction.

I will argue that we see the same distinction in, in Israel.

And so I instead of using, when speaking of Israel, use the terms visible and invisible or local and universal, I use the term for the the visible local church would be akin to national Israel.

So this is getting to that question.

What's the difference of biblical Israel and Israel today?

So you have the, the national Israel versus the spiritual Israel.

So when we look at the passage that was asked about in Romans 9:6, not all Israel are those who are descendants of Israel or, or not all who are Israel or Israel.

I think what the distinction being made is the distinction between national Israel and spiritual Israel.

So spiritual Israel is the universal invisible Israel, national Israel, the, the those that are of the line of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Really it's the line of Jacob.

Those are physical Israel, if you want to use that term, national Israel.

But they're not necessarily believers.

And so I, the reason I make that distinction is because I think I find that people are doing an apples to orange discussion.

They're comparing national visible Israel to the invisible church.

Right.

And so if we make this distinction, I think it clarifies when we go through and say just as we have visible invisible church, we have physical and spiritual Israel.

So, so Troy, what, what do you think of that from now that you've, you've heard my position, does that clarify any for you?

I think that your understanding, explanation of the history of the word ecclesia is close to my understanding.

I don't think that there was a shift in usage in the first century A.D. or shortly thereafter.

I think that shift in usage would have come before that.

The evidence for that would be the Septuagint, which uses that word in the Greek as a translation for cajol, cajol being the word for assembly, one of the words for assembly or gathering.

And the Septuagint predates the arrival of Christ and his first coming by hundreds of years.

And so yes, I do think, think that there's a historical connection to an ancient Greece.

They used that word ekklesia as a civic gathering, typically for voting or other sorts of forms of democracy or whatever.

But it had a broader usage as well.

It has a broader semantic domain than just that.

And so it wasn't an invention of the New Testament writers, perhaps it was an invention of the Septuagint translators that I, I don't know.

But it certainly wasn't something that was added to extra biblically in the years after the canon was closed.

So we might disagree there a little bit.

The visible, invisible.

The way that I've always liked to try to explain that to folks is visible and invisible has to do with our perspective.

So the people of God as we see them are the visible, visible church, but the people of God that, that God sees that we can't know for sure who they are would be the invisible.

And so if you mean by local gathering, the people who are in local gatherings scattered across the planet all collectively, perhaps, I would say yes.

It's not just my local congregation that's the visible church, but it's all of the people presently walking the planet that identify themselves as Christians that would be the visible church.

Those that are actually the elect, that are actually the chosen, that are actually saved that we will actually see in heaven, that is the invisible church.

And that wouldn't be just those who are alive and walking the planet now, but that would be all of our brothers and sisters in Christ throughout all of the ages, in the past and to come.

So all of those who God knows are the invisible church that's visible to him, but not to us.

And, and that which is visible only to us, we can't be sure.

That's why we share the gospel with everybody.

Even if they profess to be, particularly in America these days, even if they profess to be a Christian, you share the gospel because the vast majority of them probably are not the invisible church.

And then as far as the Israel, the distinction, I would say that distinction between visible and invisible as it relates to ancient Israel, I, I would agree because they are the sons of Abraham.

So if we look at it in those terms, those who are actually the spiritual sons of Abraham are the invisible.

And those who would appear on the surface, as far as we can see with our own, you know, mundane eyeballs who we think might be Israel slash church, maybe a better phrase, the saints, the ones we think we can identify as the saints Those would be the visible, but not necessarily saved.

Just because we think they might be saved doesn't mean anything.

I don't know.

So I, I just gave you a lot because I'm trying to react to everything you just said.

So if I, if I said things too quickly or said too much, let me know.

Yeah, No, I mean, I think, I think you're agreeing with me in.

Because, I mean, you, you, as you said, you wouldn't go and assume that just because someone's in a church.

Church, they're saved.

You wouldn't believe they're Christian just because they go to church.

But I think the, I think where many people have trouble in this discussion is thinking that, well, if they're born of a, of a Jewish lineage, then you're saying that they're, you know, that they're saved.

And we're not saying that with Christians.

Why would we think that with, with, with Jewish people?

So, I mean, obviously I think that some Jewish people get saved right here.

I believe I'm a believer and I'm, you know, from a Jewish background.

Right.

So I don't, I'm not against that.

But I have hearty agreement with you on that point.

See, and I think this is where we can.

Now, we, we can agree, like I, I can agree that invisible Israel, invisible church, that's God's people.

I have no problem saying that.

Right?

But I wouldn't say that all of Israel, nor would I say all the church, local Israel, local church, are saved.

Right?

And so compared to that way, that, that becomes the thing that, you know, that it comes to.

So I think we have to make that distinction between physical Israel, spiritual Israel, just as we do with, you know, local and universal church.

I, I think I personally have found that to be helpful in, in talking about these things.

And here's a bit of an analogy that just popped into my head.

So it's always risky to throw something out there that you hadn't even processed fully yet.

But oftentimes those that articulate some of the things I'm attempting to articulate will be accused of replacement theology.

And I do not believe the church has replaced Israel.

I believe that the, the people of quote, unquote, Israel have expanded.

And so here's the analogy.

When this country, the United States of America, was initially founded, we had the 13 colonies, which became the first 13 states.

So if we think of that as Old Testament Israel, but now there's a whole bunch of extra states, you know, the Midwest and the Far west and, you know, even Alaska and Hawaii and maybe even Greenland soon, who knows?

That's not to say that Illinois has replaced Connecticut.

That just means that Illinois has been added to Connecticut as part of the United States.

So there's an expansion to what we understand as the people of God in the New Testament phase, with no denigration for those who came before us.

In fact, we have more books of the Bible and more words of text in the Old Testament than we have in the New.

I mean, our faith is built on the, the writings of giants of the faith, heroes of the faith.

And so anybody that would denigrate, that doesn't understand the Bible, doesn't understand dispensational or covenantal theology for that matter, and probably isn't.

If they don't repent from their negative attitudes towards these hateful attitudes towards people that they disagree with.

Then again, absent repentance, they're not Christian.

Yeah.

Seth, your thoughts?

Yeah, let's unmute you first.

There you go.

Yeah.

So, Troy, I have a question for you.

So, so what is your eschatological position?

Do you believe in a literal millennium or amillennial or.

Yeah, I, I would fall.

Well, so I'm going to, to give you the answer, but just a quick caveat.

I would describe myself as amillennial, but I, when I read people that are way smarter than me and they describe amillennial, I, I don't always fully agree with everything that I'm reading, but I agree with the amillennial view, as I've read others describe it way more than I embrace the other ones.

Okay.

Okay.

So when you look at Romans 9 through 11, especially chapter 11, David, do you see a future salvation for the people of Israel?

Do you know, do you see the natural branches being grafted back into their olive tree?

Do you see that as a mass conversion of Jews at the end of the age?

I think that we're mixing terms from a kind of a dispensational viewpoint with an amillennial viewpoint.

When you talk about the end of the age, I'm amillennial.

And sometimes amillennial gets lumped in with post millennial.

But there's really two different camps of premillennialism.

There's the historic variety and the dispensational variety.

And I think amillennialism ends up being a nice bridge or blend that connects actually, pre millennialism from a historic premillennial standpoint and post millennial standpoint.

And so the end of the.

I think we're into the end the, in the end of the age, I think we have been for a couple of thousand years kind of thing.

And I think that there have been broken off branches grafted in.

You know, the Apostle Paul comes immediately to mind.

Most of the authors of the New Testament come to mind.

Andrew Rapoport, who's sitting here on this panel today, comes to mind.

There's, I mean there's all sorts of Jews, ethnic Jews.

So do I believe that there's a future for Israel?

Well, yes, because I'm described.

Of course there is.

There's a future for God's people.

The sons of Abraham have a great future.

And so absolutely there's a future for, for Israel.

So how we define Israel changes how you frame an answer to a question like that.

Okay, Yep.

So.

So you see, all Israel will be saved.

Romans 11:26, as Israel.

That's not Gentiles.

That's is.

Would you see that?

It's Israel.

That's all of the people of God from, from Adam all the way to the last man standing who is in Christ is Israel and they will be saved.

And to me, that's the point of that is he doesn't lose any.

Christ loses not one.

Everyone who is who the Father grants the Son, everyone who is his, who belongs to him is indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

Everybody who God has elect from before the foundations of the earth, because I'm a reformed theologian, they will be saved.

It's an absolute guarantee.

And yes, that includes ethnic Jews, ethnic Spaniards, ethnic Germans, ethnic Koreans, what have you.

But isn't he talking about talking about two different groups of people though?

I mean, there's the wild olive shoots that are grafted in to the olive tree and then there's the, all of the, you know, the original olive branches that are grafted back in.

Yeah, I think that the occasion, you know, so when we, when we're doing our human, applying our hermeneutical principles, you know, we want to look at the, the grammar and the literary context and literary genre and all those sorts of things.

But we also want to look at what's going on in history and what the occasion for the writing was and who the audience was.

And in the first century when there was a great dispersion and a bunch of ethnic Jews ended up in, in Rome, I think Paul's addressing that situation and saying, hey, Jews, Gentiles, let's get along here.

We all are one in Christ.

And yeah, there's two different people with two, two different backgrounds that arrived at this point in history together.

One from an Old Testament ethnic Jewish background and others from a brand new grafted in believer kind of a background.

But we're all one in Christ.

And so he's, he's.

Yes, he is talking about the two groups to clarify what the issue on the ground is and then making the point that stop fighting, stop hating your brother because you're a new convert.

Don't think that you're better than your Jewish brothers, who many of them stepped away from the true faith until they get grafted back in.

And likewise those who were the faithful Jews and thought that the Gentiles needed to become more Jewish, the Judaizers, that gets addressed in other parts in book of Galatians, for example.

So I think Paul is addressing the two groups, but with the aim of helping both, both sides of that equation in Rome to understand that there's unity in Christ.

Okay, so let me, Let me just read.

I had pulled this up because, you know, for folks who you guys are referring to it.

Let me just read Romans 11:25-29.

And I'm just gonna, I'm gonna mute you guys.

Well, I'll meet Seth there because we're getting some from South.

Sorry, but this is what, what Romans 11:25 says.

Because I just want to make sure we, we see the context of what's being discussed.

For I do not want you brothers to be uninformed of this mystery so that you will not be wise in your own estimation that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles comes.

Comes in.

And so all Israel will be saved.

Just as it is written, the deliverer will come from Zion.

He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.

And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins.

From the standpoint of the Gospel, they are enemies for your sake.

But from the standpoint of God's choice, they are beloved for the sake of their fathers, for the gift and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Now, I'm gonna, I'm gonna change this if I can, because I want to focus on something that.

Look, we've already called out Joe, Joel, Webbin, and anyone that wants to go tag him, anyone can always join Apologetics Live.

And on Thursday nights, apologize live.com that you just click on the duck icon.

That's how everyone here, except for me got in here.

And so it works.

And, but anyone can come in.

So even Joel Webbin, he can come in and we're gonna, we're gonna have a. I, I will say this, at the end of this recording, before we go, we're done, we're gonna have a special message just for Joel Webbin.

I'm just saying, I happen to know a little secret.

His name's been kicked around.

It'll be kicked around one more time.

So you don't want to cut out early.

But you know what?

I have been hearing from people that are in that camp, shall we say they focus on, on this one part, verse 28.

From the standpoint of the gospel, they are enemies for your sake.

And I have been hearing this.

I know Seth, and you and Jeff heard me share about this, but I've heard this since October 7th, you know, and I had, I had a pastor who contacted.

I haven't spoken to this pastor.

I get, I'm thinking like a dozen years since I, I preached at his church.

And he contacted me to let me know that he's not going to use any of our materials anymore.

He's not promoting striving fraternity anymore.

Because I'm not saved.

I am an enemy of the Gospel.

And that verse is the one that proves it that because I am from the, the line of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, that means that I am an enemy of the gospel and I cannot be saved according to that.

That's his argument.

Now I will admit I think that's a very extreme position.

I don't think Joel Webbing and some of the others that hold to this anti Israel view, hold to that view.

But I think so I think that some people are just going way extreme on this.

But I have heard often.

And, and so the question I'm going to ask you guys is how do we interact with this?

Because I've heard this often that right now Jews are enemies of the gospel and yet the people that quote that miss the very next part of the verse.

But from the standpoint of God's choice, they are beloved for the sakes of the sake of their fathers.

And, and so, so many people want to say, well, they're not God's chosen people today, they're an enemy of the gospel today.

Well, this verse, the very verse that says they're an enemy of the gospel, also says they're God's chosen people for the sake of their fathers.

So I want to open up.

How, how should we view this?

I'm going to.

Who just unmuted.

Was that you, Jeff?

Because I was going to go with you first.

So I was going to go with you.

And then, and then Rebecca, if she wanted to, if she wanted to talk, she hasn't said much in a while.

So, Jeff, I'm gonna ask you.

Go ahead.

I would just say that regarding verse 28, Romans 11:28, we have to pay very careful attention to the actual language of the text.

So if it says, as regards the gospel, then they are enemies for your sake.

You have to say, what does the pronoun they refer to?

So you look to the antecedent that.

Would give you that.

That answer.

And it comes in verse 26.

And in this way, all Israel will be saved.

So Israel there is not speaking of believing in invisible true Israel that then gets enlarged like Ali, like adding Illinois to the United States of America or Greenland to the United States of America.

It's actually referring to national Israel.

That's the issue, because they are enemies.

Believing Israel is not enemies for your sake, but national ethnic Jews who are by and large rejecting the gospel are enemies for your sake.

So this is really the issue.

When we say replacement theology, we're not looking to denigrate grade anybody.

We're saying they are.

Those who hold to Covenant theology often reject this fundamental premise that there still is a plan for national ethnic Israel, that that did not end when the church age was born.

So whether Galatians refers to Israel as the church or any other passage that might speak of a spiritual Israel, that does indicate the fact that the actual language of Roman Romans 11:28 pits Israel as a nation, as an ethnicity.

This is after the cross.

Paul is writing to Roman believers and he's calling us beloved and now recipients of mercy.

But he's saying there will later be mercy on them, ethnic national Israel.

So to say that that is no.

Longer in play is by definition replaced theology.

That's.

That's what I would throw out there.

Yeah.

And I think.

I think that we have to be careful when we accuse people of replacement theology.

You know, MacArthur would do this often.

Right.

And, you know, as.

As Troy had said, there is.

I think there is an element that we have where it's not, hey, God had Israel in the Old Testament.

He replaced them with the church.

From a covenant perspective, they're seeing that the Old Testament believers are in the same grouping as the New Testament believers.

So it's not a. Yeah, I totally agreed.

But the question is, are you replacing the church?

Are you substituting the church into that place where God is still making promises, promises to the nation?

So the church has replaced the nation with regard to these kind of promises, such as Romans 11:26, all Israel will be saved.

The text is literally saying that God is going to save national Israel.

We know it's national Israel because the pronoun they in verse 28 clarifies that for us.

So that's what I'm saying.

It's with regard to the promises to national Israel.

That's what's left in the, in, in the discussion.

Because clearly in verse 28, the.

They are, they're enemies of God.

So it cannot be speaking of that universal Israel or spiritual Israel.

It has to be speaking of that combined group that's visible.

But they're not.

They're believers and unbelievers.

And yet there's, you know, yet what he's saying is they're still his chosen people for.

For the sake of the fathers.

Promises kept.

Well, okay, I'm not trying to make it political, but promises made, promises kept with God.

It's always that way.

Right here, Trump.

Maybe it is that way, but.

Right.

So Rebecca, let me go to you and see any.

Any we haven't heard from you in a while.

Any thoughts you have.

I would like to hear any of you gentlemen that would like to.

I'd like to hear some Comments on Jeremiah 33.

Jeremiah 33.

Let me pull that up.

What verse specifically?

Well, yeah, okay.

So, yeah, it's a long chapter, you know.

Do you have any specific verses you want us to.

Yeah, we're talking hanging the Lord's eternal.

Covenant, which verses David.

Now, I know and I know some has been fulfilled, and I believe, you know, some is.

Is for the future.

He says, behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will fulfill the promise I made to the house of Israel and the house of Judah in those days.

And at that time I will cause a righteous branch, obviously Jesus, to spring up for David.

And he shall execute justice and righteousness in the land in those days.

Judah will be saved in Jerusalem.

Jerusalem will dwell securely.

And this is the name by which it will be called.

The Lord is our righteousness.

And then further down in the chapter, he goes on to say that God says that, you know, I will no longer break my covenants with.

With Israel.

Then I will bring about day and night and cities and ethnic.

Israel is mentioned several times here.

So given that, I kind of find it hard to say that the nation of Israel is not included, is no longer included in this covenant.

You know that it's just now this, the people.

And what you read was Jeremiah 33, 14, 16 for folks, right?

But there's even further down, like I said, he continues on.

So basically God's saying, I will never break my covenant.

That I made with them.

God does, which is similar to what.

He said in Romans where he says that it ended there by saying that the calling of God is irrevocable.

So Jeremiah 33.

I don't know any of you want to.

Any of you have studied that.

Okay, Troy, go ahead.

Well, deeper into the chapter.

It says, behold, days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah.

And so it's a new covenant.

The new covenant, of course is, is in Christ's blood.

And so that's the new covenant.

It's a different kind of a covenant than a geopolitical nation state kind of a promise.

It's a promise to be saved forever from your sins, to be in Christ, to be part of a kingdom that is not of this world.

So right there in that same chapter, there's, there's talk about the, the new covenant.

So there's a shift.

So certainly God has not turned his back on the chosen people of the Old Testament ethnic connection, but he's fulfilling it in, I would argue, better ways, wondrously better ways.

And so yeah, from my perspective, the land promised to Israel, anybody who's focusing on just that small little piece of land about the size of New Jersey has way too small all an idea of what that promise is.

I think the whole connection, the meta narrative of Scripture is talking about in, in Genesis we have the account of Eden and then we have pictures of Eden and the temple imagery of the Old Testament and, and then we have an expansion of that with, with Israel.

The geopolitical nation of Israel in the Old Testament supposed to be a broadening of the expansion of Israel.

And now Eden is, is spreading over the entire planet.

Israel is spreading over the entire planet.

And eventually when Christ returns, the entire cosmos is a new creation.

So that Eden is every.

Becomes part of everything that God has ever made.

That's the bigness of the promise.

If we focus on a small little piece of land in the Middle East, I think we miss the grandness of God's eternal plan.

And by the way, the other thing that Andrew started off with was how do we interact with these people who want to take one verse out of context and use it to try to bludgeon the Jews.

Just invite them to read the beginnings of Romans 9, where that very same author, it's not that many paragraphs earlier, that very same author says, I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying.

My conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart, for I could wish that I myself were a curse separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen, according to the flesh, who are Israelites.

So if they're going to say, well, Paul says in chapter 11, the Jews are your enemy for the sake of the Gospel, well, just two chapters earlier, that exact same guy is saying he would sacrifice, if it were possible, his own salvation for the.

The sake of his ethnic family, if you will.

So that's proof.

Texting is a dangerous habit.

Yes, I totally.

I think we all agree there.

Anyone else?

Anyone else want to tackle that?

Okay, Pastor Jeff, go for it.

In Jeremiah chapter three, you see God very realistically describing the two sisters.

You have the northern and the southern kingdom, and both of them are going after idols.

You would have thought that Judah would have recognized what God did to Assyria and therefore not follow in the sister's footsteps.

But instead, Judah goes headlong in the same way.

And God graphically describes this as whoredom.

He's very, very harsh in describing the, the unbelief and the idolatry of Israel and of Judah.

But what's so interesting about Jeremiah 3 is that it's almost like a twist in the plot, because as hard as he is, he still says, return to me, return to Zion.

He says, I will be compassionate.

And what you see is the heart.

Of God, that however far it seems.

That they've gone, God does keep welcoming the ethnic Jews back to himself.

And that's not the attitude.

Just like what you said, Troy, when you have people that are railing against.

The Jews and both boasting over them.

As in Romans 11 language, boasting over.

The Jews, it's the opposite heart of God.

God is desiring them to return, and he still has a plan.

But here's what I'd say again to the covenant interpretation that you offered there, brother.

In Jeremiah 31, you do have new covenant promise, but you also have some fulfillment of the land and the clan.

So in Jeremiah 33, which, which our sister just referenced, if you look at Jeremiah 33, verse 24, have you not observed that these people are saying the Lord has rejected the two clans that he chose?

In Jeremiah's mind, the.

The southern kingdom and the northern kingdom are the two sisters.

I think another prophet called him Ohali and Ohaliba or something like that, the two sisters, the two clans.

God has not reflected, rejected the two clans.

He's not here picturing them as new covenant believers, only what he's saying is the clans themselves.

There's a distinction between north and south.

God has not rejected them.

Now he also says they're going to become two.

In his hand, they're going to become one.

The two clans will become one.

The two sticks of Ezekiel 37.

But notice that he's still dealing with them as such as an ethnic people, northern or southern by tribes.

And again, in Revelation, the book of Revelation, you have the 144,000 witnesses and there's 12,000 from each of the tribes.

So we would take that very literally.

Right.

But then it says in Jeremiah 34:24, as our sister pointed out, thus they have despised my people so that they are no longer a nation in their sight.

Thus says the Lord, okay, if I have not established my covenant with day.

And night and the fixed order of.

Heaven and earth, then I will reject the offspring of Jacob and David my servant, and will not choose one of his offspring to rule over the offspring of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, for I will restore their fortunes and will have mercy on them.

So God is being very particular in talking about the land promises, the promises to the ethnic clans.

And he's very detailed in what that promise is for the future of of Israel.

So it goes all the way back to Jeremiah.

But it's consistent then in what we saw in Romans 11 and really all the way to the end of the Bible.

So I think it's important to hold on to those details.

Since you mentioned Romans 11, this question came up earlier, I had to go find it because I wanted to make sure we address it.

JK Grace says, where do you see the fulfillment of the dispensational view of Israel's restoration as we're Talking about Romans 11:26 in the book of Revelation.

So.

So Jeff, why don't you.

You can tackle this one.

I don't know if Seth wants to.

Yeah, I mean, just the brief sketches, you'd have to see it in the context of Daniel's 70 weeks.

You have to understand that that final week is yet future.

So you'd have to take a futurist position there.

And you would see then that God resumes his dealings with Israel nationally when you get the tribulation period.

That tribulation period would map correspond to Daniel's 70th week of Daniel 9:27.

So from Revelation 6 through 19, you don't have any more references to the church.

You have references to the church in Revelation 2 and 3 and then you have the throne room scene in Revelation 4 and 5.

But from Revelation 6 to 19 you have Jerusalem.

The city of Jerusalem is the center.

You have the two witnesses who are Jewish.

You have the 144,000, 12,000 from each tribe.

So it's clear that God is finishing that Daniel 70th week in the book of Revelation.

Short answer.

We could go much deeper, but I'm sure.

Seth, Seth, go ahead.

Yeah.

In Revelation 20, if you're not following this theme of the Bible that Jeff described, Revelation 20 doesn't really make a whole lot of sense.

But, but if you've been paying attention all the way at the beginning of Genesis, starting in Genesis chapter 12, and then you go through all the prophets, and then you go through what Paul said in Romans 9, 11, then, then Revelation 20 makes sense because there needs to be a fulfillment of these promises.

And that's when it takes place.

And one thing you see in, in Scripture during the first coming of Christ is how these prophecies are fulfilled.

They're fulfilled precisely how they said they were going to be fulfilled, right?

So for example, Jesus was going to be born in Bethlehem.

Well, guess what?

He was born in Bethlehem.

I mean, you see that in Micah 5.

Two, you see, he's going to ride into Jerusalem on a donkey.

Well, he, it was the, it was the fall of a donkey, right?

That's in Zechariah also.

Zechariah, you see that he was going to be pierced, right?

Well, look at me, whom they have pierced.

Well, he was pierced at the cross.

You see Isaiah 53 in the vivid details of his crucifixion.

And, and these, these prophecies were written before crucifixion was even invented.

And yet it's in vivid detail and in this, this is exactly how these things are fulfilled.

I mean, you can, I could point to some other prophecies like Isaiah 7:14, that he would be born of a virgin.

And, and of course he was born from the virgin Mary, right?

So, so when we look at how prophecies are fulfilled, they're, they're fulfilled in this way.

So in Genesis chapter 15, when it says that, that the land promise is, is given to Abraham and his offer offspring, it says that they are going to have this land from the river Euphrates to the river of Egypt.

So, so, so we should not.

What should we expect?

They're going to have this land from the river Euphrates to the river of Egypt.

And then in Genesis 17, 17 verse 8, it says that they're going to have this land forever, which means that it will never be taken from them.

So, so if you Put all this together and you, and then you add in the Davidic covenant from 2nd Samuel 7.

All this is fulfilled in this millennium described in Revelation 20, this 1000 year reign where Christ is going to come back to Jerusalem, which it says in Zechariah, where he's going to reign and where he's going to reign with his people, you know, one third of those Israelites who believe in him, as Zechariah says, they will look on me whom they have pierced, and he's going to reign from the throne of David.

And, and the territory that they're going to have is from the river Euphrates to the river of Egypt.

Right.

So, so God puts these details in there.

And yet this is not wrong.

I mean, I, I mean I, I think, I think people overthink these things.

You know, they spiritualize it when it's all there and it's, and it's really glorious.

It's really glorious to see it.

And I, I just want to praise the Lord.

Like I, we don't have to be in suspense about these things.

This is how it's going to happen.

And when Christ comes back, he's gonna have his throne.

And, and this global throne is described in Revelation 21 and 22.

So where he's going to reign on the new Earth, it's going to be the reign of the triune God forever and ever and ever.

Right.

So, so, yeah, I mean, I, I think that I, I could say so much about this, but we just need to see how Scripture is fulfilled.

We already know how it's fulfilled.

We, we've seen, we have a guide to it from the past.

Things that have already come to pass and how it was fulfilled then will also be fulfilled in that way in the future.

Yeah.

And could I just add one more thing about the fulfillment, the return of the Jews to the Promised Land.

We hear so much about how, yeah, they're back in the land, but some will even say, or Joel Webbin would say, that this isn't really Israel nationally.

They probably follow like the Khazar hypothesis, that the people who are returning are not even ethnically Jewish.

But not only are they Jewish ethnically in the land, there are still many more believers Jewish like yourself.

Andrew, you're like example A.

There are so many people who have come to faith in this return to Zion.

It is not only a physical return to the land, there is spiritual awakening among the Jewish people.

We look in our church here at Cornerstone, we are just a few hundred people and we have many Jewish background Believers, and we are seeing people come to faith.

It is remarkable.

I saw a Pew research study in 2020 that talked about how of the, you know, almost 6 million Jews, there was only, I think like 300,000 believers.

But that discounted.

In that study, they also found 2.8 million people who had Jewish backgrounds.

So at least one Jewish parent, but.

But not an identification as Jewish, which means they weren't observing Judaism as a religion.

So therefore they weren't counted in the 5.8 million.

When they actually studied the 2.8 million who had at least one Jewish parent but were not associated with Judaism, 52% of them identified themselves as Christian.

That means of the Jewish background believers.

If there's actually more like 9 million in the country, in the country of the United States of America, almost 2 million of Jewish background people in the United States of America believe at some level, maybe not a true profession, but believe that Jesus is the son of God.

So God is doing something amongst the Jewish background people to bring them to faith.

In fact, even though Israel, Israel is still very secular, when like Herzl and that first generation of Jews came back, it was almost all atheists.

Now, today in the land, even though they're not yet believing in Jesus, 64% of the Jews living in Israel believe that they are in the promised land of the Bible.

They believe in the God of the Bible.

They would say that they see themselves in that way.

That's a particular study in 2023 by the Chosen People Ministries.

They believe in a connection between the state of Israel and the coming of Messiah.

They're actually believing in a personal Messiah who is coming to Israel.

So it's not yet happened, but the stage is set for, for the end times for the last seven years.

Yeah.

And I think that when we look at it.

Thanks, Seth.

When we look at it, you're, you know, I'm going to say something that may, I don't know, may surprise folks.

When we look at the return in 1948, people ask me, do I think that's proof of fulfilled prophecy?

My answer is, I don't know yet.

I mean, if, if God wants, I mean, if he wants to wait another thousand years, he could, he can make Israel go into, you know, you know, be, be moved out for a couple of, you know, centuries and then bring him back again if he wants.

Right.

So, you know, I want us to also be.

I'm just, for me at least be cautious not to say, oh, see, this is proof of biblical history.

This is what proves dispensationalism Right.

Because Israel's back as a nation.

I mean, look, we can look at.

Historically, it is odd because, you know, you, you look at some of these other nations that were under God's judgment and God promised that, you know, we wouldn't know who they are anymore.

And yeah, you don't know who those groups are anymore because they've all been moved around.

But because of the, the Jewish laws, the holiness laws, they were separate from the people around them and they remain to people even to today.

Now, you know, we do have to start wrapping up because we, we haven't even touched the surface on, on some of these things.

I am, I am going to ask both Seth and Jeff, you know, let me know after, before the show ends, if they could come back next week and, and have us dig into, you know, if there's a, A.

There's a book where the three of us are writing along with some other folks, and Seth has some chapters that he wouldn't let me write.

He was so mean.

He just took it on, on the, on the, these issues and true hatred and.

No, I'm, I'm teasing with him, but, but yeah, no, I, I think it would be, you know, we want to dig into that more.

So this is really a good foundation for that.

So we'll see if they're, if they're up for that.

But can, can we, can we go back to something for a minute?

Andrew?

Yeah.

All right.

I wanted to.

I feel bad for Rebecca.

You know, you got four pastors and she's trying to get a word in edgewise.

Well, I, I'm still stuck on the Old and New Covenant, so I just, I just wanted to, because I know the Old covenant was what God had established with his people, and that was through the obedience to the Mosaic Law.

And I know even in the Old Testament they were even looking forward to the New Covenant.

I know.

I think it was in Deuteronomy they were talking about Israel being given a heart to understand.

But so my understanding is that the New Covenant is God writing his law on their hearts.

Right.

It's no longer going to be through the sacrifices, the daily sacrifices for sin and, you know, the strict adherence to the outward laws.

So why does it have to be that?

Just because the New Covenant, you know, God giving them a new heart, putting a new spirit in them, obviously, you know, granting them salvation through Jesus Christ.

I, you know, is Troy, I guess.

Troy.

Are you.

Were you saying that the New Covenant takes away anything, God's promises for the nation of Israel or Did I understand that wrong?

I had to wait for me to be unmuted?

No, I would say that kind of in the Spirit, when Jesus says, I give you a new law, a new command, love one another, which wasn't new.

And John writes in First John, chapter two, I give you a new command.

And yet it is not new, it's old.

In the spirit of that, I would say that the covenant, it's the same covenant, but it's a new covenant because there's something new in it.

And what is that something new?

The person and work of Jesus Christ.

So all of the sacrifices, sacrifices necessary under the old covenant find their fulfillment in Christ as the perfect sacrifice.

And so it is new in a sense.

There is salvation by works.

Praise God, Christ has done the work that is new.

And so the old covenant is not done away with.

It finds its, its answer.

It's its solution to the riddle, its purpose for being in the person and works of Jesus Christ.

I don't know if that helps answer the question, but I certainly am not saying that God is breaking his promises or has done an about face on something.

He's layering on something new that is so dynamic and game changing that we end up arguing about it for two hours on a show like this.

Okay, so the New Covenant is more than what you said said, because part of it is that we would no longer need a priesthood.

The Holy Spirit would indwell us.

Okay, this is what, you know, Jewish people will be looking forward to.

Which is why I find it so amazing that the Catholic Church and Mormons and all want to go back and be like, oh no, we have a priesthood.

And you know, right.

The whole purpose of the New Covenant was we didn't need that anymore because the Holy Spirit would be the one to instruct us.

And so I will say this is where I find it interesting.

The New Covenant is individual, where the Old Covenant was national.

And the reason I find that so interesting is when, especially when I have discussions, debates with Presbyterians over baptism because they'll say, oh, see, the sign has to be a family sign, because the sign has to be an outward sign and it's familial.

Except the whole New Covenant is about something you can't see.

It's not outward, it's the Spirit indwelling you and it's personal.

So why would you baptize children into the covenant?

You know, like see, but, but that's, that's where we end up seeing some of these differences.

But I think that, I think the New Covenant was For, for Israel national Israel, not all of them would believe, but it was, you know, as if it, you know, commands given to church and you know, there's some unbelievers in the, in the physical church.

And so when we, when we look at that, I think that God has grafted in, to use his own language, the Gentiles.

And so now you have the Gentiles fulfilling the new covenant.

And but it's, it's not completely fulfilled there.

I think there will be a, a future fulfillment even though it is being.

That's why I don't, I personally don't say it's that crisis of fulfillment.

I don't know if I could find someone had that in the comments.

You know, folks that, that don't know.

It's, it's always hard for me to do this when it, you know, I, I saw this coming.

I'll throw this up here.

Sister Tara was saying, Andrew, are you paying attention?

I was actually looking at what the, the verse was that was being read when she said that.

But it is not easy to, to not have the co host because I have to read all the comments and star them which gets to be a lot when, when, when everyone's very busy.

I think it might have been this one I was referring to from Jesse who said Israel is the church, hands down.

And so that's, I think that's the thing is that I don't, I don't think that it's completely fulfilled yet.

And I, I think if you.

We see that as Jesus as the fulfillment because I think someone said that, but I must not start it.

I, I think that that is not looking at all the promises God made in, in the Old Testament and, and seeing well those have to be fulfilled literally.

And when did Christ as the son of David literally sit on a throne as promised and reign over the earth?

I, you know, so, so when I look at this, I, part of me goes okay, he made these promises and, and he's not going to make a promise and break it.

And if you go back in the history here, I actually had Jim Osmond on because he made that comment.

He made a, you know, the guy's so brilliant.

He's.

If you don't know who Jim Osmond is, go to go check out Kootenay Community Church.

He's, you know, he is I think personally the, the best preacher alive.

And I used to say that when John MacArthur was alive too.

Just saying.

But.

And he hates what I do it and I just, I, he just had him on for My Rap Report podcast most recently.

And so.

But he made an offhanded comment in a Resurrection Sunday message and he, it wasn't even in his notes, but he just said, you know, how, how do you fulfill the promise of the Davidic covenant that David would reign on David's seed would reign on earth without a millennium, without millennial kingdom?

And, and that just, I was like, hey, I gotta have you on to talk about that more.

And, and my co host back then, Drew ended up saying, coming in and they, and they went back and forth and he said, you know Jim, you make a really good argument.

Of course I could say that Drew is not post mill anymore, but the argument I guess wasn't convincing enough because he went on mill.

So.

All right, I don't know if that fully answers Rebecca, but I do want to, I want to get to a couple other questions that I had in my show notes for us because I want to try to.

We, we've had a, a bit of, of disagreement here, but I think we might get some more agreement on some of these.

I want to discuss how, how as Christians should we think about Israel politically without confusing our theology and our, and the nationalism.

So I don't know if any of you would want to tackle that one first.

Mine's probably the shortest answer, so I'll go first because I don't see the prophetic importance of a geopolitical nation state of Israel today.

So my answer would be we need to treat them the way we would rightly treat any nation.

And if from an American perspective, if they are, you know, if they're good to us, we're good to them.

And if they're a threat, we need to deal with that.

So I don't, I, I don't look at the present secular state of Israel any differently than I would look at the present secular state of Canada.

Yeah, okay.

And I'm just gonna, I'm gonna.

Before any answer, I just, I gotta post this because I don't know what it, I think what it is is like the algorithms.

As more people tune in, we at the end of the shows are we.

When we get folks like this, you know, Prophet Muhammad in Bible Isaiah 42 says read Isaiah 42:18 to 25 Jews are punished for rejecting Prophet Muhammad.

A light to the Gentiles.

42:6 from Medina 4211 to defeat worshipers 42:13 and a guide to bring justice.

So I'm just, I, I have to do this.

I know, I, you know, we're going to end up going along this way.

But you know, it's just too funny.

Let's see, let's see if the Prophet Muhammad is mentioned or Medina is mentioned at all in, in the passages that were just referenced.

So we'll start at verse six.

Let's see, he said verse six says about them rejecting the, rejecting the Prophet Muhammad and be a light to the Gentiles.

Let's see if it says that I am Yahweh, I have called you in righteousness.

I will take hold of you by the hand and guard you and will give you a covenant, people as lights to the nation.

Oh, I'm sorry, did, did I skip over the passage where it mentioned Muhammad?

I must have missed that.

Hold on.

Let's go to verse 11 and see where it mentions Medina.

Let the wilderness of the cities lift up their voices and the villages in Kedar.

Inhabitants, inhabitants.

Let the inhabitants of Selah sing aloud.

Let them shout for joy on the tops of mountains.

So obviously Medina oh wasn't mentioned there either.

So Prophet Muhammad in Bible Isaiah 42 anytime.

If you want to come in and actually have a debate, we could talk about how the author of the Quran has no idea what Christians believe because the author of the Quran can't even define the Trinity properly because the Quran defines the Trinity as the Father, the Mother and the Son.

And that's not how any Christians define the Trinity.

Oh yes, I know they find some little group that was kicked out of the empire because of their heresy and go.

But these people did well.

I think God would know the difference between a, a very small heretical group that no one ever heard of except for Muslims and what all of Christianity holds to as the Quran.

Now if you want to talk scientifically, your Quran teaches that you know, the, the semen of man is in the small of the back and I don't know how good you are with biology, but that's not quite where the seed of man is.

So I, I see some people are saying that they think it's just a bot because it's just po.

This account is just posting over and over and over.

I'll just, I'm going to just show how, how often this person is just posting.

You know these are not the same like this is repeats posting some of them but you know like I, I actually like this.

So, so Prophet Muhammad Bible in the Bible Isaiah 42.

Why don't, why don't you contact me info@restrivingforeternity.org info@restrivingforeternity.org and or actually, here, just, I'll put this up here so you can see.

Just make it easier for you.

Info@sfe Bible.

Just email me.

Let's have a Thursday night where you can come in and we could talk about how the, the Quran was written by someone who is ignorant of Christianity.

And I think if it was God, God's not ignorant.

Just saying so.

And he's still posting away.

You know, I, I can't even put up always all the comments in the chat.

That chat's been kind of up until now was more subdued and I, and I'm sure, and I'm sure that I.

People are going to be, start engaging with them.

But.

So let's, let's try to wrap up.

But, but I, you know.

Let me.

Move to this question.

You know, the idea, and this is going to get into something that you guys mentioned with Joel webbing and his views.

You know, loving, loving the Jewish people while remaining faithful to the gospel of Christ.

Can we do that?

So, you know, Seth, I'm going to ask.

Well, actually, I'll ask Rebecca to go first.

We haven't heard from her in a while.

So, Rebecca, you know, can we love Jewish people and still stay faithful to the gospel?

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

You know, I mean, yeah, I mean, it doesn't, to me, it doesn't change anything.

You know, I think we should share the gospel with the Jewish people.

We want to see them saved just like we would any unbeliever.

You know, I, yeah, I, I don't even know why that would be a question, I guess, you know.

Well, let me, well, let me throw it out to Seth.

You know, why, why would that be a question that I would want to ask Seth?

Yeah, well, well, there's, there's an assumption.

It sounds like this.

I don't want to cast any, any.

I don't want to make a false accusation against the person asking a question.

But it seems odd, you know, that that would even be a question because we should want anybody to be saved, right?

No matter where they are on planet Earth, whether it's Jews or anybody else.

But here's what I find very interesting.

You know, Isaiah, chapter 5, verse 20 mentions that, you know, darkness will be light, light will be darkness, sweet will be bitter, bitter will be sweet.

What I find very interesting is, you know, I believe that scripture, and we've talked about this during the podcast, that scripture describes Israel as uniquely special.

And I say that because of the promises of God, right?

They, they're not special because there's anything good in them.

We know that can't hear anything.

But they are special in the sense that God's blessing is upon them, right?

God has made promises to them.

His.

His fulfillment of these promises to them prove that God is God.

Now, what we're hearing from the Joel webbing types is the opposite of that, okay?

Isaiah 5:20, they're uniquely evil, okay?

So of all the people on the face of the earth, these are the worst people, you know, so.

So we're hearing rhetoric like that, you know, and it's.

It's eerily similar of what.

What was spoken in the 1930s with.

With the rise of Adolf Hitler and the Nazi party, you know, because.

Because you look at, you know, some of these.

Some of the verses they go to in the Bible, they go to, like, they go to John 8, where Jesus is speaking to the Jews, and he says to them, you are of your Father, the devil.

You know, so there's something uniquely evil about these people.

They go to Revelation where Jesus says to the Jews that you're a synagogue of Satan, right?

So.

So they go to places like this, and they say, you know, these people are uniquely evil when it's the opposite.

You know, they're.

They're uniquely special because of God's promises to them.

And, you know, in Genesis 12:3 says that if we.

If we bless them, we will be blessed.

So, yeah, so I find it very interesting, you know, that, again, I don't know if that's what he meant by it, but, you know, are these people so bad that they.

They can't even be evangelized?

Like, I mean, that.

This is ridiculous thinking.

Yep.

All right, Jeff, anything you want to add to that?

Yeah, I would just add that when.

We recognize that the nation Israel is the nation that Paul was referring to.

In Romans 11:28, they are enemies for the sake of the Gospel.

And that's true.

That fits kind of how we see their resistance to the deity of Jesus Christ.

But they are loved on account of the covenant and promises.

So we need to recognize that, because if that's the case, they're a special nation.

They're not just another nation in the.

Middle east, because if you disregard them as another nation, that Middle east, then you'll do like Joel Webbing did today as I watched him and Nick Fuentes on the podcast.

And he said, basically what we need to ask is, what have the Jews been doing and what has America been doing to stir up so much Islamic hatred toward us?

It's really basically the Jews fault, and it's our fault that The Muslims would come, perpetrated 9, 11 and that kind of thing.

But if you recognize that no, they're.

A special nation and they are different from the peoples of the earth, there's a demonic hatred for them which explains World War II and explains what's happening in our world today, then we will.

Be in a unique position as Christians to defend the persecuted because it's not, it's not a neutral situation here.

The Jews are different.

Why the Jews?

Why are they always at the center of world news?

Well, because something spiritual happening demonically in the heavenlies against them, to destroy them.

And we have to be willing to.

Be the ones as a nation, America, the most Christian nation on earth, to.

Stand up for the Jews and defend them and to continue to rescue them.

In many ways that's our, that's our Christian, Christian duty towards Israel as a nation.

So when Ayatollah Khamenei, or I guess it's Ali Khamenei, not Ayatollah Khamenei first guy.

But when this guy says in like what 2013 that his intention was to develop a nuclear weapon to destroy Haifa and Tel Aviv, then America takes that seriously and drops bombs on Iran when they get close to finishing their nuclear weapons.

But that's the kind of thing we need to do to bless Israel because we recognize there are spiritual forces in heavenly places arrayed against a special nation that God has end times plans for.

And Andrew, I do agree with you.

We can't say with certainty that this is the Jewish revival, this is the Jewish nation.

But from all indications here in general revelation as we observe nature and apply logic to it, it sure looks to me that these things are coming together just as is described in the book of Revelation.

Yeah, and John was trying to come in to say hello, but he was having trouble, he couldn't hear us.

So he popped in and we, he was trying to get himself set up.

I, I, I can't even keep up with the chat now with, with this Muslim guy.

He's not even interacting.

Everyone's giving him suras that he's not even, he or she is not even interacting.

Maybe it is just a bot because, you know, Islam is a fake religion.

So, you know, this is maybe a fake, you know, just saying if you, if he really wants a challenge, he can come in here and we can actually discuss whether Islam is, you know, so people are saying to kick them.

So I could do it, I could, you know, in this one I can only block.

So let's, let's not, I'M gonna.

Since we're getting to the end of show, I'm not gonna do that because that way he can come in next week or the week after.

I should say since next week maybe.

So, Seth and, and Jeff, you guys good with coming in next week and we talk about, you know, Seth's chapters on Jew hatred and things like that.

You good with that, Seth?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'd be glad to come in, and I'd love to talk more about Tucker Carlson and.

Yeah.

And Joel Webbing and, and Nick Fuentes and.

Yeah, this, this clan that is.

That has arisen.

So let's talk about them.

You know, so let's.

I will be listening.

I'm not gonna miss that one.

That'll be a good one.

You guys just did a Tearing Down High Places as we close up.

So this has been an apologetics Live mixed with, you know, theology throwdown, of which we have only three of the podcasts from Christian podcast Community and two that came in from Apologize Live.

So, so there we go.

But you guys did, on your, on your Tearing Down High Places podcast, you guys did kind of a review of this whole issue with, you know, Nick Fuentes and Joe Webbing, and, you know, they're working together, shall we say.

And so you guys sort of offered a challenge and I wanted to, to highlight the challenge and, and make it clear and ask everyone listening if they wouldn't help us to get this challenge out there.

The challenge is this, that Seth and Jeff are willing to debate Joe Webbing on the issue of Israel.

Now, I know Joel probably won't debate me because I'm Jewish, so I would be happy to do it if he wants.

But hey, if you, if you don't want to.

If Joel doesn't want to debate with someone who is Jewish, okay, from a Jewish background, Seth and Jeff are willing to debate him on the issue of Israel.

And so if you need a place to do it, I've done plenty of debates here.

I, I've been told I'm a fair moderator, so I can do that.

So here's the thing.

And, and someone, someone who's Joe.

Well, they said Joe will do anything for clicks.

No, I, I disagree with that because.

We'll see.

Look, Joel will do anything for clicks, but the one thing he doesn't want to do is hurt his, you know, the, the clickability by losing a debate to people.

You know, he's going to say, I'm going to tell you right now, guys, go on to X and tag him and, and say that he Has a debate challenge right here.

We got a format.

We've done debates here.

If he wants a different moderator, we could bring someone else in to moderate.

We could always do that.

So, because a moderator's job is just to watch the clock, that's all I do when I moderate and bring the questions up that people have.

And Andrew, Joel could bring some.

Obviously, we want it to be two against two.

So, so he could bring one of his friends on, maybe Nick, Nick Fuentes.

There we go.

Or, you know, someone, someone like that, and we'll go for it.

I'm going to tell you what his argument's going to be, okay?

And this is how, you know, he doesn't believe what he's saying.

Okay?

His response is going to be, they're nobodies.

Which, what that means is they don't have a big enough audience, and if I lose to them, I look really bad by losing to two guys no one's hurt, heard of.

Right?

That's going to be his, his argument.

And now you know why he'll make that argument.

Because he figures he's got nothing to win and everything to lose.

I, I, on this show, you, those who are regular, you know, I will debate anyone.

If people come in here planning on a debate that, I don't know I'm having, you know, maybe Prophet Muhammad there who's still going in the chat, just giving nonsense after nonsense.

But if he wants to come in, he, he could come in one time when we don't know he's coming in.

Just don't do it at the end of the show, because then there's no time.

But the reality is that if you really believe what you're saying, you'd be willing to take the debate and show how right you are.

But if you're only doing it for a platform, well, we will see what Joel Webbin does.

So I'm going to ask everybody to tag him.

Apologetic draws, says, bring on James White.

Do a three on three.

I'll tell you what, I, I can reach out to James and see if he's, if he's good with doing that.

Okay.

Here, John just popped in.

John, I don't know if.

Can you hear us?

I'm gonna take that as a no.

He can't hear us.

Okay.

He's still trying.

But, John, just let me know in the chat if you, if you are, start, if you start.

Well, I can't let him.

I gotta chat with him to let him know, like me, if he can't hear me, what good is that?

So let me know if you hear us.

Okay.

So, speaking of debates, and I know you guys here are.

Are, you know, not regulars here, so you.

You wouldn't know about this, but for.

For the apologetics live audience, you guys know that we had a guy that came in who wanted to debate to have a discussion, you know, slash debate on the issue of affirming Christianity.

His name was Anthony.

He was trying to say that homosexuality is okay scripturally.

And as those of you may remember, we.

We talked about it.

I went to the definition of terms, and I talked about the thing of lust.

And he had no idea how to address the fact that lust, he agreed, was a sin.

And yet he lusts after his boyfriend, who he doesn't consummate the relationship with.

He just cuddles with him at night and doesn't consummate.

And so he was trying to make that argument.

And as you guys may remember, he.

A couple months ago, he reached out to me for.

To set up a formal debate with me in October.

And he has, you know, he thought he could demolish James White.

And then.

And I was gonna.

He was gonna show how he could demolish James White by debating me on this show.

And I guess it didn't go well for him.

And his boyfriend at the time was being very obstinate in the chat.

Well, as those who may remember, he wanted to do a formal debate with me here on this program, but his boyfriend demanded that the only moderator could be his boyfriend.

To which Anthony did agree.

That's unreasonable.

But he said the debate would be in October.

Has anyone noticed that October has come and gone several months ago?

We never had the debate because, well, he wants his boyfriend to be the moderator.

He sent me an email just recently the other day.

This is in January.

And I just.

Because I know some of you in the audience have followed this, so I think it's kind of fun.

And Anthony does troll the show, so he may be listening because he says how I'm.

I'm so mean.

And I. I just name call.

I call him a coward.

I tell him why I call him a coward.

You wanted to debate me, and you ran from the debate over and over and over.

That's a cowardly behavior.

So it's not an insult.

It's a description, you know, but he.

He.

He basically said this.

Good evening, Andrew.

On the 25th of this month, being January, myself and Father James Jad, an Episcopal missionary church of the Episcopal ministry.

Ministry.

Missionary church, will be debating the LGBTQ relationship and scripture.

I wanted to extend an invitation for you to attend the stream yard and my.

My friend Dr. Knowles will be moderating now.

He could have had Dr. Knowles moderate his debate with me.

Just saying.

Unless Dr. Knowles is his boyfriend.

I don't know, maybe he says I. I will definitely be responding to some of your arguments as you wanted to extend an invitation.

Sorry to your arguments were pretty much the only one I ever accounted who brought them up.

I guess you could say I lust for you to attend because they are the same word in Greek and in smiley faces.

And so he says the Debate will happen January 25, 2026 at 5:00, clock and our moderator will make sure we talk.

We make sure we will talk over each other in the.

The name of clarifying questions.

I don't quite get that, but maybe he meant not talk over each other to be.

Be dishonest about how language works and other things.

The whole issue of lust was trying to understand how language works.

But he says and.

And then make sure everyone involved has no has is a no true Scotsman just to make you feel at home.

Be blessed.

So here's the thing I find funny.

Why do I call him a coward?

If you want to debate my argument, Anthony, debate me.

I'm the one that made the argument.

Don't debate some other unsaved guy from the Episcopal church on an argument that's not his.

Maybe it is, but I don't know what his.

But you're gonna address my argument.

Just saying.

Address it with me.

I dare you to come on and do a formal debate with me.

And let's.

Let's have that.

So we have two debates out there.

Offers out there.

I don't think Anthony will because I think he's running.

But so that's just some, some program notes for us.

I know I have a ton of comments that I starred and we're not going to be able to get to them.

We already went long tonight.

I do want to thank each of you guys for coming in for.

For at least those who are part of the Christian podcast community.

If people want to do check out the Christian podcast community, go to Christian podcast podcastcommunity.org you can find something that you will like listening to.

We got over 50 vetted podcasts and so we are not.

We.

We don't make it easy to join.

We want to get lots of answers to questions and make sure that people.

Well, you know, Rebecca and Troy could tell you that it, it takes a long time to join us because we, we do.

We do a vetting process.

We don't just want to want numbers.

We want people that, you know are going to agree with the mission.

And we reject about 60 to 70% of the podcasts that that asked to join.

So, yeah, so go to ChristianPodcastCommunity.org you'll find a good podcast there because, well, this one, if you enjoyed this one, it's there.

If you guys like this, share it.

And definitely, definitely share with Joel Webman and let him know there's a challenge out here.

The guys from tearing down high places will debate you.

Oh, John's trying to get in one more time.

Let's see if, if we can.

John, can you hear us?

I'm guessing not.

All right.

I feel bad for John.

John is for those historical to apologex live.

John is what we call we used to nickname Chicken man because he would usually sit outside with his chickens and watch.

And every time he joined from outside on the other coast, as it's nice and sunny out, we see his chickens running around.

So he would always give us a shot of his chickens.

So next week, it sounds like we're going to have both Jeff and Seth come in.

We'll talk about basically the.

The Jewish hatred that's out there.

We'll talk about Nick Fuentes, talk about Joel Webbing and what those guys are spewing.

We could talk about the Looney Tunes.

Candace Owen, we could.

She just.

I'm sorry, but anyone who is gonna.

And I'll say this next week, anyone who's gonna take her serious, she knows Charlie Kirk was murdered because he came to her in a dream.

That's her evidence.

And now he's a time traveler and he had handlers who are keep who had to take him out because he was traveling through time.

That's how he knew he was going to be killed early.

If he was a time traveler, don't you think he would have known to avoid being murdered if he knew ahead of time that he was going to be murdered and he knew it.

That's why he said he was going to die young.

I'm just saying I don't want to use too much critical thinking and logic to.

To that.

But yeah, so next week that that's what we'll have.

So go check out out the faith debate.

Check out one little candle tearing down high places.

Check those out.

And until next week, remember to strive to make today an eternal day for the glory of God.

And we'll see you next time.

Have a great one.