Alex

This episode includes an account of child abuse, and mentions of suicide attempts, we feel it's an important story to tell. But do take care when you're listening. Visit survivors uk.org. If you need support for any of the issues raised in this episode,

Jacob

the minute I left our mouth that was also a second infield and that was in my gut that genuinely felt like it was about to drop out. I'm pretty sure that the family member was speaking to opposite the table could see it in my face to colour drain out. And it was because I knew myself what was common.

Alex

Welcome to stories of men beneath the surface. I'm Alex Melia. Join me as we discover what it means to be a man in the modern era.

When someone you love shares an unspeakable secret, you have a choice, hide away, or step up. Today we're hearing how one man faced an impossible situation. With both courage and honesty. Back in the summer of 2017, Jacob was finishing up his night shift at a hotel in Edinburgh, when he got a text from a family member. Someone who's really close to they asked him to come round to talk. It had to be now and it couldn't be over the phone.

Jacob

subconsciously I knew that something wasn't right. And I'm finishing up my shift grabbing a boss at about sexy and remember, it's still been pretty light move when we sort of do their home tunnel council house quite a dark and dingy living room. There's quite a bit of clutter around a lot of artwork in the room. We sat down for a cup of tea, I remember feeling absolutely shattered because it started my shift at 10pm the night before. They just sat there, sort of looking extremely sheepish. And they seemed quite visibly upset. A family member then broke down. Bostonian tears, confessed that they basically been abused as a child. That's hit me pretty, pretty hard, like a brick wall, wanting to comfort them. But the minute I left their mouth, there was also a second hand feeling that was in my gut that genuinely felt like it was about to drop out. I'm pretty sure that the family member which we can tear office at the table could see it in my face to colour train out. And it was because I knew myself, what was common. The person who was involved, the person responsible, the timeframes, what happened, all that sort of some truth to me, because the same thing has happened to me. There's almost a point where I felt like concrete, the men have left their MO and just knew within myself, it was the same person. I just knew everything she told us joined together like a jigsaw puzzle. We discussed that share the stories, obviously, when you're a male, and you've been abused as an added stigma. So it be something other died where we've never spoken to anyone about we'd never have opened up about it would have definitely went to the grave with that thank and potentially actually could have sent me to the grave, really with how much ads I'd kept. And I simply could not keep the A it happened to me from this person either. I said to them, it was mean to be said the other great fear that it had also happened to me, you know, they were second buyer, they were concerned for me, they were horrified. There was sort of a feeling of letting this person down as have not been brave or when being younger and sort of speaking up and assaulting staff stop that dial pin male tiger and a family that that can be a protector. And I think it was like this is your life changing forever here. This is a genie that once it's out of the bottle, it's Oh, and the fact that once we know this about each other and once we discuss this, you know there's no going back from that. There was no feeling of relief. At first, there was just a feeling of shame. But then feel like Assange has been a failure. The men have left their left. I think we're both sort of in shock. You know, it was very sombre. I don't think we were necessarily crying at the time. I don't think there was it was just a new feeling of of shortcut there was all finally out there. And I think there was sort of just an acceptance that we were going to have to band together. They want you to go to court. They want you to do something about this. And I pretty much at that moment in time made the decision that it was my duty to stand behind the audio coming together of trying to formulate a plan of how we get out of that. How do we navigate that? Because it's so it's going to be life changing. And it was I think it basically ended on us both agreeing that we had to go to the police

Alex

Take what happened in court and what was the what was the decision at the end of it.

Jacob

So we managed to get a conviction, which is extremely rare, below 5% is the likelihood of getting a conviction for a historic child sexual abuse case, what really helped was that the two of us were articulate, were educated, were able to, you know, stand up to the scrutiny in court. But the treatment of victims throughout the case was was horrific from me being interrogated in a police holding cell for over three hours. My statement, you know, in a room where there was kids, CCTV cameras and caged windows, basically place where they take people of, you know, committed crimes for question, right up until when I arrived at court is about six foot three, you know, Hey, happy go lucky guy. The support just wasn't there. For me, they were sort of felt like, you know, any of the women that were in our group, at the court were the ones that had to be sort of protected. Throughout the process of victim support groups were all again, female, based and female orientated, which I completely get, because, you know, the vast majority of, you know, abuse and sexual assault and different things is, you know, targeted towards women, but there really was a feeling that there was nothing for men at the case, you know, even the defence was sort of really quite attacking me for my size for my stature, almost trying to chip away at my masculine and sands to say, oh, you know, you have to beg a lot even as you know, a young boy to have been abused, which almost a mass and spelt like I was being victim blamed and all that was allowed to, sort of happen in the court. And I mean, even though we got the conviction in the person went away, how long did they get? They go four years, and he served under two, which is just the kind of justice system, we were informed three weeks before they were about to get out that they were getting out and said that we could essentially write a letter of appeal, but there wouldn't be much chance for it. And yeah, they pretty much got out, will be rebuilding their lives and everything else, like that barely saved any of their sentence. You've never seen that person ever again. Never seen that person ever again. Never seen that person ever again. There's been attempts at intimidation from their family over things like social media, you know, when I was a local journalist, and the target my work, Target, you know, my other family member and other ways, so was attempt intimidation during the court case, you know, we essentially got cut off from a large part of our family following up like it was a really traumatic experience, something that I think really, almost levelled me, and in the long run was the best thing I could have done, because the self destructive behaviour and path that I was going down, was all related to this abuse in the past and not coming to terms with that. And I've gone to court and commented towns of fit allowed me to draw as a man, and to try and actually reassess what masculinity, you know, truly adds, you know, you grew up, you always started with someone who is tough, someone who's rough and tumble, you know, we've got TV series movies, books that show the central male character that you know, will bend but will never break. That always made me feel like I was weak growing up, you know, I'd had attempts on my life at 17, you know, made serious plans to do it again at university. See this plans after sort of an the build up to the court case. And actually overcoming all of that. Going to the court case, staring down muscle of abuse or going through the difficulties with the police, with everything else, to me, really, what refocused my ideal masculinity wasn't in this tough guy, persona, it was actually to be able to admit to myself, look, you're struggling. But also, you actually just been able to put one foot after the other and get out your bed each morning. So one, you know, go and we ended up getting a dog and it was best session ever done. Just walking the dog was a great thing. cooking a meal was a big one. It wasn't this idea where, you know, I had to be seen as someone who couldn't try. I then started feeling less guilty about crying, started feeling less guilty about asking for help about foreign influence and saying, Look, I'm struggling a bit here. You know, and this is why and then I think there was a great empowerment that came from that. And I sort of started feeling like masculinity really assess feeling fear as being comfortable in your skin as accepting your deficiencies but also trying to accept that you can't be Superman every day. You know, as an about going to be seeking revenge beaten Someone else, you know, essentially trying to have socks off and a stiff upper lap, I think it really is about talking about. And I think that's what a large part of, you know, wanting to do this interview is is to say out there that, you know, if you are a young man and you have been abused, that it's okay to cry, it's absolutely fine to reach out to your friends and say, Listen, this happened to me, because, you know, ultimately, those things are out of your control, the only thing that's within your control is how you react to it. And it's about trying to address disruptive behaviours that perhaps you had before you came to terms with the abuse that you had suffered, you know, a whole host of things from the minute I had a fake ID 1516, drunken to pass, no, just taking it to, you know, the limit every time at university taken way too many drugs, you know, as a as a team being way too promiscuous and things like that, you know, there was a real, if I can self destruct in any way possible, I would have found a way to do it. It's that kind of element of thinking. And it wasn't until I came to terms with the abuse, and came to terms with actually telling people in less than this is actually shaped the person who I am. And there is a reason for the depression, the anxiety, the disruptive behaviours, that allowed me to then think about how I'm tackling them, how I can get over them. When I came out and sort of confronted myself with the abuse. I think it allowed me to turn that next page and start the chapter of actually rebuilding who I was, there is

Alex

this stigma in society that you're less less of a man by coming out and sharing this stuff, someone else coming forward, gave you the permission to come out and say what had happened as well. And, and I think coming out and saying how I feel about certain things, as made me feel like more of a man vulnerabilities considers a feminine quality as men, we all have both a masculine side and a feminine side.

Jacob

I think definitely. I mean, I think for me, a big fear was short of Hoda, telemed you know, I'm, I'm very close to my friends, like, like we all show up in university, I definitely see my friends, you know, saved my life at home, or friend group have saved my life at multiple times, whenever I was down there, we're always trying to house you know, work create a beer and I'd like to get delete it was maybe not the best thing for it. But you know, they would certainly would keep you company and, and, you know, you'd be good. But I think for me seeing their reaction, especially sort of, you know, my two best friends who are who are masculine figures themselves. And it just been complete an honour support and shock, actually, that I've gone through that because there's Athena was a happy go lucky kind of guy on the outside. I was always like, the class clown, the thing is the everything else, it never suspected that had happened. But I think once I told other men, and I came to terms that, you know, even my own father was great with that was just complete support. I think that really changed my perception completely as to, you know, they're not necessarily masculine or feminine attributes or just human attributes. It's just basically, you know, you can have strength, I have different sensing someone even opening up a boat that abuses and extremely, in my opinion, brave thing to do, like, you have got to have that, you know, element to your character. And that just completely reshaped the way I seen, you know, my relationship with my mutual friends after that, actually, thank you, for my male friends felt a lot more comfortable sharing with me, you know, almost opened, opened the door for us all.

Alex

Have you found that some men are comfortable listening and understanding. And then there's some men who just feel awkward that you're telling them that maybe they're not used to someone being open and vulnerable with them. I mean, I've had that experience before.

Jacob

Some people do get taken aback more than others. And I don't necessarily think that's a negative character trait. I just think that some people are more, have more lived experience, maybe more confidence in the sense. For instance, my two best friends will be my best man, or whether they've went through things in their lives, like, you know, they've experienced trauma, they've had difficulties so for them to accept that and understand that. I felt like the other friends who had had mental health issues or battles, or, you know, anything in their childhood that was traumatic, didn't necessarily have to be abuse, were a lot more understanding because it felt like it came a lot more natural to them. And Scotland, we've got this whole manly man kind of culture. And I think a lot of that can also be passed on by pupils parents. I'm quite lucky that you know, my father would speak to me about emotions, which speak to me about you know, different things like that were more so worth myself but would allow me to be me.

Alex

Why do you think your dad is that way?

Jacob

I think Is Political and Social Outlook and lathe is a, I would say extremely progressive in the way that you see society. I think he also is damaged from things don't get me wrong is one of these older men will not go to the doctor's for, you know, even if that arm has fallen off, and that's a weakness in itself, you know that's a toxic masculine trait. I also think it's difficult, like who wants to talk about child abuse? I often think we make all these jokes about paedophiles and you know, Nazis and all these different things because it is such a difficult and dark subject for us to actually be able to navigate. And I mean, I never felt any animosity or dislike for any friends, I found that a bit difficult to talk about, because I thought I'd change it, I find it difficult to talk about.

Alex

I do agree with you. People just want to make jokes about it. I think that's part of British culture, isn't it to make light of something that could be very, very deep, very difficult, very traumatic.

Jacob

I think it's human, like you see all the time. I mean, I'm a fan of dark comedy, actually helped me in his secretary, my son, but after the court case, I found I could joke about it. And I felt like that that helped me in male circles as well was to be so brutally open that I could joke about it. And I could talk about it and I later centre things that also help to let people relax around talking about I think there were a few people that found it very difficult subject approach, they would ask, well, how you doing? She said, Look, I'm actually really struggling, like to the point where, you know, the suicidal thoughts are taken off my head. So the next thing some people just check out there, they have no idea how to navigate that situation.

Alex

Yeah, I think it could be the fact that maybe no one's ever mentioned that to them before. They've seen certain things on TV or films or whatever. But they've never, they've never experienced it themselves. It's like, Shit, this is out of my comfort zone. What how do I deal with this?

Jacob

How much do I get tackled, and you know, popular culture, though. I know, we have all these great dramas and different things. And it does sometimes come up from time to time, you know, whether it's a true crime or something like that. But I would say that that type of entertainment, there is no real discussion about the victims of child abuse, how they feel, how to approach these topics, like when I was in school, I don't ever remember getting taught what to do, if that happened to you? How do you what to do if a friend happens? Yeah, I know, we're a lot better now. With mental health and trying to help people but I think we still got a long way to go, especially in male circles with being comfortable, I think I was blessed that my friends are who they know, my family aren't who they are. Like, I think they don't really change their perception of me. And that really helped. I didn't become, or here's Jacob, the guy that was you know, abused as a kid, let's look down on him, you know, effect on blaming anything else, all shorts, there was none of that. There was just completely not acceptance, and disgust did happen to someone that, you know, was close to them. But I think that was probably one of the most challenging things was detail alone, male friends, and in the end, it felt silly, because that just ended up being absolutely fine. And it was the best thing I've done because as I said, it allowed me to come to terms with things.

Alex

I was thinking as well that is I'm 35 years old. I've never had anyone come to me and say that, I've got something to tell you. I was the victim of child abuse, or sexual attack or anything like that. So it makes you think, especially when we're talking about men, how many people this has happened to

Jacob

and our minds. Every you know, paedophile or child abuse or sexual abuse perpetrator looks like Jimmy Savile? That's an idea. They look like a monster. I think it's this horrifying feeling. And it's the same with their football coach. And these are people who are respected in society, often people who you could go for a paintless I think he's just to say it scares us to come to terms with the idea that they are not a boogeyman. They do not look like a boomer could be the person that sits next in the pub could be the person that's sitting next to the boss, could be a colleague at work, could be a family member, when the stories came out, it horrified does because we were children. But the national feeling was really to try and forget as soon as it came out, because this thought that your children are not safe and then go away to football trainer, less fuel and that your children are not safe and they will be you know, on a family holiday. This feeling that your kids aren't safe, you know, walking down the street is almost too much for parents, to bear for even everyday people to bear that. You know there are these folk out there and our society is that feeling that we do not want to accept that there could be someone that we would not recognise. We like to think we know monsterous

Alex

that's a really good point. Yeah, I wanted to touch on the masculinity side of things, the fact that you went into court, you're six foot three. And it's this whole misconception that I wanted to explore around what you said before our while you're a tall lad or your well below or wherever, you know, we can't possibly believe that you would be, you will be sexually abused, because you should be able to protect yourself from a grown man.

Jacob

I think what's really interesting about this is that thank you is the act of Teddy Cruz. I've seen a few of the books on some similar. Now I think it was more like sort of exploitation and the act and world. I mean, everyone knows he's built like an absolute house. That guy's a unit. And I mean, can oftentimes it can happen to anyone for me. Why have you stopped? I would say, when I was probably 1213, runs about that age 1213. It's difficult to remember, because without childhood trauma, your mind can do a thing, but it just blocks out like I barely remember much from my childhood.

Alex

Why? Why did it stop as well, actually,

Jacob

I stopped it at that age and came to our conscious kind of, I think I was just able to naturally stop it. I became psychologically mature enough to recognise that it wasn't right. And there was a shame in different things. It was enough. Yeah, it was, it was a dicey game, I'd say for them. It was it was something that they did not. They don't want to continue, if you're probably getting caught. I think that it was just I was making too many protests, like, you know, protest stations and everything else. But to go back to what you'd said about the court case, I was told was probably quite skinny, which was funny on the outside at school, everything else I was super confident. I was always seen as maybe a bit weaker within my family was always quite psychologically weaker. So I mean, my size, I don't think mattered. I think psychologically, I was already pretty scarred at that age. And that's what made it easier to take advantage of me it wouldn't have mattered, therefore, was six foot three, age 12. I think I was just praying for that. But I find it extremely difficult. In the court case, when you're bringing up the size, you were bringing up the fact that you know, you were like are still quite a fit and active young team, how could you not have sort of fought off and said something, obviously, this is just something you've completely fabricate that sort of made you feel you are sort of in the in the fight in line for victim blaming. At the time, it actually made me just double down, I sort of felt how dare you, because obviously, by this time, I'm in court amendments, when each have matured a lot. And I also like to think of myself as very socially liberal. Even when I was treated by the people who are meant to be on my side at the court, with just zero support, I came in knew that my appearance would always be the first thing that people go to, like I use our back glad it was a suicide, it was an accident, the psychological element always came into it second. And I found it really funny because the defence actually tried to bring up you know, my relationship with alcohol, my relationship with drugs at university, almost my abusive that I felt should have damaged I was psychologically by it, and actually superseded the fact that you were looking at this big six foot three guy with a big beard and a suit on. And that witness was claiming to have been abused. And you've also got to bear in mind. You know, I was about 12 year old, but even when, you know, you walk the dog at the park 12 year olds are still tiny, they are still these little NSN you know, humans, that is just unthinkable for you to see, well, you know, they were taller than most dishes and on there, they should have been able to fight off. We still have a ways to go as a society to really accept the vulnerability of children to even the vulnerability of teenagers, the vulnerability of you know, I probably I didn't even feel like a man until I was 2526 genuinely felt like a lost little boy. I remember my dad seemed to me when I was really depressed. That was actually after my first first suicide attempt. And he said to me, I know this is going to be so hard for you to see now. Because it feels like everything that is happening is going to impact the rest of your life and everything else. But honestly, when you get to 2324 your brain and everything is going to change so much, you're going to become so much more comfortable in your skin. And that means nothing to you know, it's so indeed, but you just got to keep yourself alive and get to that stage. At the time I was thinking yeah, you just don't understand. I got to 2425 myself and I was like colour well. I completely see You said, and I'd say the exact same to any young teen young man out there struggling or even older male, it's not came out and sort of shared their truth like, thank you if you do, no matter which way you do it, even if you just want to be truthful with yourself, or truthful with the people around you, you don't. I mean, to me, I wouldn't necessarily recommend going to court. I think it was a horrible experience. And really, for them to go to jail for two years,

Alex

I was shocked when you said two years, then you're the only serve two years, even if sentenced to four years, this is years of abuse, and then to only get four years and then serve two is is just, I feel a sense of anger for you, and not just for you, and the other person. But for however many people this happens to you know, that the sentences is so, so small,

Jacob

and I think it is the pika late. I mean, that'll never leave it. Like it still, if I'm in the shower in the morning, I still have like flashbacks. And I was going through the court case, I was having night terrors. You know, even sometimes when I was out and feeling super anxious, it's like looking over your shoulder. And like I say, I'm having sex with 3d, like, what am I doing looking over my shoulder for things like that, but has their psychological impact in all this, there's real worry, and for them to get two to four years. And for you to essentially have a life sentence, I think is it's something that it's really difficult for survivors or effect until whatever language you want to use, or you can come to terms with it in many ways, it doesn't necessarily have to be going through, you know, the legal system, because that was one of the worst. The best thing that I did was once a court case was over, I sort of said to myself, right, this is the beginning the rest of my life here, don't start building, you know, a career or family thing he move on. I think if I were to see them, the fear would probably come back. I think I would maybe needs a couple more years, to not feel like I would want to basically attack them. But I think that's more because of what I had, that they had done to someone close to me. Rather than what was done to me, I think I can move on and see them and could just pass them in the street is difficult. I think for me to continue with the rest of my life, the easiest thing for me to do is to try and just forget that even exist. Just if I were to come face to face over the next couple of years, I think the best thing for me to do would be to leave. I'd hope that through groyne and sort of if we eventually get the proper therapy through the NHS, I would hope that I could, you know just say look like I actually do forget what happened in the past. I know that what happened to one woman isn't remarkable person can still say that I feel normally should carry themselves bear could have avoided the whole court case and everything else by just holding their hands up and you know, admitting guilt and apologising. I think it was more of the pain that they dragged everyone through I would still struggle township right here and now it's easier for me to continue living my life. If I shut them out of it. I think I still need a few years to go over that.

Alex

I want to sincerely thanked Jacob for sharing his story, and having so much courage in order to say it. Also the courage to take his case public, even when the chance of conviction is incredibly low. In the year ended March 2019 convictions for child abuse were just 5% in the UK 5% It makes me feel incredibly angry for what Jacob has had to go through. Sadly, it's become an all too common story in the UK, where people can commit terrible acts of abuse on others and receive incredibly light sentences or no sentence at all. Where are the changes to the legal system? It also got me thinking that we don't usually hear from male victims of abuse. Why is that? Is it because male victims feel more ashamed? They feel less of a man. They feel like they should have stood up to them. These could be possible reasons. After getting to know Jacob, I've realised what an incredible guy he is not just for telling his story today. But for all the other people that he's helping out there. He could be forgiven by just wanting to brush it under the carpet and forget about it. But no, he's out there trying to help other people who are victims of abuse and we thank him for that.