Hey guys, podcast producer Pascal here This week, Val Aaron and local organizer slash facilitator Hadley Morrow talked about protest safety, police accountability, and how you can do both. Also, there's an Office of Police Ombuds Commission meeting on Tuesday, August 19th at 5:30 PM It's gonna be held in the city council chamber at Spokane City Hall. And like city council meetings, o opioid commission meetings are public and have an open forum. Be sure to make your voices heard and without further ado, here's this week's episode.

Today we're here with Hedley Morrow. They're a Spokane organizer committee member of our local NAACP and Head Medler of Anarch Keeling Consulting. And we're gonna talk about protest safety, the Office of Police, ombuds and Spokane Community Organized Response Network with Hadley. Thanks for coming. Hadley. So happy to be here. Cool. Just meddling. We're doing some meddling of our own with the board. we're masked up today for COVID safety. Mm-hmm. And it just makes us sound a little bit more muffled, so we gotta bump that sound up. Um. Val.

Yeah. So yeah, I'll get started. So Hadley, this week y'all had a, kinda like a workshop, for people to fill out Office of Police Ombudsman,

just Ombuds now. Best see, they changed it.

Ombuds. I didn't even know that. Thank you.

Yeah. It's been a whole point of discourse. Uh, the SP city council over. Like gender neutral language, but then also it's from like some sort of like Scandinavian word or whatever. So there's been like debate over like, did you make the Scandinavian word meaningless in your quest for quote unquote wokeness? I think was a near a paraphrase of one of the council members.

I really do love word etymology. It's amazing.

Sorry, that was a tangent.

I appreciate that tangent.

Yeah. but also to backtrack a little bit, so you, y'all had a workshop this week for, filling out, basically police, violence complaints for the office. Of Ombuds Police Ombuds, the OPO. The OPO, and those were in relation to the protests back in June. Yes. so

were you at both protests? I was both on at the ICE protest on the 11th and the No Kings protest on the 14th.

Yeah. And, I was with Hadley at the No Kings one. We, ended up just kind of being near each other because it kind of got scary. so like, speaking of scary, I guess, what prompted like, you know, you organizing, workshop Yeah. To like, get people to like actually fill out complaint forms. Thanks for asking.

so I think, you know. Probably thousands of people were out on the streets across the two protests. And I don't know about you, but my social media feed was dominated for days mm-hmm. With folks who had taken video and uploaded it. And, you know, like months have gone by now. And we know that the city asked the, OPO and uh, Spokane Police Department to do their own internal investigation into their response on the 11th.

Mm-hmm.

And the OPO is responsible for overseeing that process on a community level. Mm-hmm. So. While, you know, a lot of people I think were sharing mm-hmm. Online, we became worried that that wasn't translating to actual complaints that will feed into the internal investigation mm-hmm. And give the ombudsman information and data about the level of concern that's coming from the community.

So there might be big community feelings and evidence mm-hmm. On social media. But if that doesn't make its way back to the OPO, they're not gonna include it in an independent investigation report.

Exactly. Like the SPD is not looking at people's Facebook as part of their internal investigation into how their behavior played out on that day. at some point, you know, in maybe like a few weeks after the, June 11th, one of the city council members had said at a meeting that there had only been 11 OPO complaints filed within, you know, the first couple weeks. And honestly,

that's not that different from like mm-hmm. Any month's worth of OPO

complaints. Mm-hmm. Yes. Great point. So we were concerned that, yeah, that community. outcry wasn't being translated into mm-hmm. The, the actual place that it's gonna be usable. and it's not the easiest process and I think it can feel intimidating to some folks who have never filed an official complaint or, you know, even sat down on a computer and typed up mm-hmm. A sort of report like this. And our goal was first to make sure that the community had information about how important this was and sort of understand what the Ombudsman role is, and then offer, you know, some advocates who could really just sit with people and help them with their complaints. Talk through, I think a lot we experienced at the clinic that we did on Tuesday, some folks coming in who were really still unprocessed mm-hmm. And said, I know what I saw was very upsetting and very wrong. Mm-hmm. But I don't really know where to start in like, bringing that down into a complaint. Mm-hmm. So we were able to sit with folks and kind of walk through their experience and help them identify where there were specific, you know, incidents of misconduct mm-hmm. Or concern or abuse and violations. And then name those and help them craft the reports and get them in.

What were some of those like experiences that you were hearing, being put in the report?

Yeah. one of the things that was startling to me because I had been more inside of the, the scene on June 11th mm-hmm. Was a lot of people who had been pretty far outside of the protest zone mm-hmm. Who were trying to come in and trying to see what was happening, trying to assess situations. And we had a woman who. basically came and she was just really trying to figure out like what was happening at the protest. Mm-hmm. And she was asking police for directions and was pretty violently targeted and arrested. She never even made it into the protest zone. oh gosh. So I was surprised to hear that there were, um, you know, sort of, uh, what seems like disproportionate actions happening pretty far outside of the protest zone.

Mm-hmm.

we, of course, you know, a lot of us were seeing what was happening kind of in, in the center of things. Mm-hmm. But there were a lot of folks who came in who were really just more observers who were on the outside, who thought that they were in positions of safety and were having tear gas fired or, you know, at least some sort of canister fired at them. one person came in with a, a video of a officer that comes out with a pepper ball gun who just seems to be spraying pretty indiscriminately towards the group. That is well, well, well outside the sort of zone of control that police had created,

was that the like zone, the like, curfew zone or whatever? That you're referring to or just like the kind of the general main zone?

I think it sort of the general main zone. Okay. I think they're, A a point of clarity that I mm-hmm. That we talked about and sort of included in a report with one person was, you know, we actually wanna understand. Mm-hmm. police did not make it easy for folks to know if they were in a zone where they were at risk of arrest. Mm-hmm. Or if they were safe, there were, you know, people still have a right to stay on the sidewalk. Mm-hmm. And of course when a dispersal order is issued, you know, that sort of changes. But there is still, my, my understanding, my belief was that there was sort of a zone mm-hmm. In which that dispersal was, sort of ordered and people outside of it could have some level of safety. Mm-hmm. I realize now, I don't know if that's true, like, I'm not actually sure how that works. Yeah. So we were able to put, you know, in a complaint that that's sort of an inquiry, like we wanna understand from SPD mm-hmm. How those decisions are made mm-hmm. So that people, you know, protesters are safer mm-hmm. When there are more observers. Yeah. Uh, but. If we are also targeting people who thought that they were safe and weren't gonna get arrested, it's gonna reduce the people who feel safe to come out and support us in the streets.

Yeah. Yeah. I know, like being a reporter on the streets on June 11th, one of the things that we found really confusing as press was that there was no police information officer. Mm-hmm. On, so it's like, it's loud. People are shouting things on a megaphone. At one point there was like conflicting information given within 30 seconds on the cop megaphone, and we're like right up near the front. So if we can't understand what the rules are, how are the people who are like way in the back gonna know what the rules are? Mm-hmm. So we're like, well, we'll just call the. Public inf like the police information officer on call, they have like an on-call number and we'll just like sit over here and try to like hear mm-hmm. Get information on like what's the boundaries of the curfew zone. Um, if you, which exits are you supposed to take? Like where is it safe for people to leave through? 'cause some exits are closed down by cops. Some you might risk arrest if you go down that way. Mm-hmm. So we were trying to get all of this information and there was just no police, information officer. Mm-hmm. I mean, I've heard call

like some stories of people who were trying to leave the protest getting arrested Yeah. While they were leaving and they were like, I'm just trying to leave like you told me to. Yeah. Um,

like a lot of the protestors in that kind of north side, almost all of the exits. Got closed off, or I think the, what the colloquial term is like kettles. Mm-hmm. Right. And, people thought that Sarah Dixie got arrested. Mm-hmm. But what really happened was that she was like, I'm trying to leave, let me leave. Mm-hmm. I can't leave, but my bike is over there. Mm-hmm. And a cop had like, walked her to her bike and then walked her outside mm-hmm. Of the periphery, like hands on her shoulders, like,

yeah.

And not everybody had that option. Like, there were people that asked to leave and were not let out. Sorry, that's a bit of a tangent. Mm-hmm. But I think like the communication mm-hmm. questions when it gets really loud and chaotic and there's, you know, multiple jurisdictions of law enforcement. Mm-hmm. Which I guess I'm wondering when you guys are filling out the complaints, how do you, Draw the line between like county officers. Mm-hmm. Excellent question. And city officers. Yeah, because I feel like a lot of people say like the cops colloquially and even though that means like Spokane police officers. Yeah. Rather than like the sheriffs.

Mm-hmm. And does it also include like any federal officers,

all great questions. Mm-hmm. So. We have been really trying to sort of broaden the language to say law enforcement more, to really make it clear that okay, we're dealing with a breadth of different departments. Mm-hmm. And also that allows us to get specific about the tactics that we're seeing each of these sort of three units used. When you look at sort of federal officers, SPD and Spokane County Sheriffs

mm-hmm.

when it comes to filing complaints, like, I'm gonna be real, it's not a perfect process. Mm-hmm. There is no real lever of community oversight that, you know, allows influence over these investigations. so it's not, it's like not the perfect process, but I really believe we need to pull every, every single lever we can. And we don't wanna let SPD have the only narrative for mm-hmm. How. June 11th went down. If we don't offer our own footage and our own testimony, then they just get to write the story off of the body cams and whatever folks say. so there's sort of this balance that we're playing of also wanting to make sure we don't put anyone in a position where they might be sharing something that could be used against them in the future. Mm-hmm. or putting someone else at risk by sharing a video that they didn't screen properly because, you know, maybe someone else is in it who shouldn't have been filmed or things like that. When it comes to Spokane County Sheriff's Office. Mm-hmm. They don't have an ombuds. They have an internal review board. I hope the, like listeners can sense my air quotes. The air quotes. That is, I'm assuming, just made up of some guys who were in the sheriff department who received complaints that come from A PDF form that probably was last updated in 1989. and would be very cumbersome to use and requires a lot of identifying information that no one I think would feel necessarily comfortable. Mm-hmm. Just handing over to the sheriff. so we feel there's a little bit of a black hole when it comes, the ability to complain there. We, I've like had some debates with some of our other organizers about how to approach that. Should we be encouraging people to do Spokane Sheriff's complaints? I think that people who are in a position of privilege mm-hmm. Who aren't, you know, who maybe were operating in a way that. They didn't, you know, certainly we don't want anyone who behaved aggressively at all towards the sheriff. Mm-hmm. Because we've been hearing him say, I mean, he said in the inlander that he wants to go after everybody who mm-hmm. You know, threw a canister and things like that. So we're not, we're not trying to mm-hmm. put anyone at risk. But I'm certainly be curious to see people who came down and were in a position of privilege to mm-hmm. Sort of say and what they saw. Mm-hmm. Try to raise a ruckus to let the sheriff know we're not just gonna let people, you know, we're not just, we don't, we're not, not watching.

Mm-hmm.

and we've also, you know, there's strategy is like CC the county commissioners mm-hmm. When you send those complaints, so at least they're not going into a total void.

Mm-hmm.

Right. We, um, did some in like asking, and there's no process by which the complaints for the sheriff go anywhere. There's nowhere where they're reported, there's no, there's nothing. Um, the county commissioners have obviously some control over their budget. Mm-hmm. But there's no. There's no accountability. There's no authority. There's no, they're not the boss of the sheriff. No. So we take that a lot more delicately.

Mm-hmm.

So a lot of folks did come in with video or footage where like we can't actually tell as a sheriff is at SPD sometimes. Mm-hmm. Or there's a combination of actors. Honestly, we've been encouraging folks that if they weren't sure, and even if it was the sheriff, that it's okay to submit OPO complaints mm-hmm. Because we're hoping it creates a pressure mm-hmm. That sort of says, Hey, SPD, the behavior of the sheriff is influencing. Mm-hmm. Whether or not your people feel safe with you showing up to protests, it's influencing. Mm-hmm. Whether or not we view you. You know, as like, it's, it's influencing overall. Mm-hmm. Like their, their reputation. Yeah. So we're kind of hoping that if we raise a bit of a ruckus over here mm-hmm. That, you know, actors within the city might create some more pressure for some more accountability between those channels. I think a lot of us, you know, there's some, a group of organizers who released a community letter. Mm-hmm. And one of the demands in that was, you know, we really want clarity around these interagency operations. Mm-hmm. currently we, you know, wanna see that SPD has the authority if there's actions in the city limits. Mm-hmm. Because we think we were all made less safe by the sort of posturing and lack of mm-hmm. Communication and under, you know, sort of understanding between the different agencies on June 11th.

Yeah.

And, and I mean, even on June 14th mm-hmm. There was some like tension and confusion over that because mm-hmm. Like I talked to a couple of city council members who were told by SPD that the sheriffs would not be like, they would be stationed, you know, outside of pride. Mm-hmm. Just like back up to call in, not gonna be patrolling.

Mm-hmm.

And then that was just not the case. So the question is like, is SPD not being honest mm-hmm. With the council, is the county not being honest with SPD who has jurisdiction where, 'cause the city is in the county. Mm-hmm. So then it just becomes like a huge question of who has mm-hmm. Power where I think sometimes the cops, SPD feels like they get. Undo like pressure or anger that they feel should be directed at the sheriffs instead. And I think the contours of that, like, well, no, we're holding you accountable for who you work with. Mm-hmm. And who you call in for backup is an interesting conversation to have.

And if it's the only place where people can do any sort of level of slightly secure complaining, it's gonna be the one that we use. Like, you know, the first listing year is gonna be the one that gets all of the, you know, the venting. So

it's like a hard fought citizen, right? Mm-hmm. Like the Office of Police Ombuds was something that voters really pushed for an independent oversight body. And it passed with like 70% of the vote, which is kind of crazy for a ballot initiative in Spokane. yeah.

so me and Luke interviewed the police chief, um, early July, I think about like all of this. And that was like a big chunk of our questions of like. You know, how do you hold the sheriffs accountable? Like, how does the police chief hold the sheriffs accountable? Mm-hmm. and like, how do those interagency things work? And it was really interesting. And then like, one, one thing that I pressed him on was, because Aaron Sellers right here, was, shoved by one of the federal officers at the, at the protest while they were covering it. Yeah. And, they were out of the way and like labeled as press and everything, and they were still, you know, violently shoved. And I asked the police chief like, what, what's the recourse for my reporter? Like, are my reporters safe covering protests in your city? And, you know, he. You can listen to the interview. It's one of our last episodes. and, but it was interesting and, where I kind of got like kind of an, it was an answer, but it was like as good as he could probably get, but it was still kind of a non-answer. and then I followed up with like, so are federal officers just able to come into your jurisdiction and commit crimes or what? You know? Yeah. And then he was like, oh no, you, you should fill out an OPO complaint. and then the sheriff is handling all the complaints. related to that incident is what he said, which is probably an interest, an important thing when we are talking about these OPO clinics because he said, I don't know if like all the OPO complaints also go to the sheriff, but he did say that all of the like internal review stuff does is going to the sheriff because they were like, because they're like the agency that's like. I guess most out of like, I don't know. They have like an agreement. They have a mutual aid agreement. Yeah. Yeah. but like, it's not like the police, Spokane Police Department is not investigating those complaints. It's the sheriff.

There's also a weird power dynamic there though, because like the sheriff turned around and was talking to, the Center Square. Mm-hmm. And gave a quote about like, I had the National Guard, like on the phone mm-hmm. Ready to call in if this didn't go the way we wanted it to. Mm-hmm. So it's very weird when SPD is technically in charge of a response. Mm-hmm. But then you've got this like. Yeah. The language I wanna use is like, devil on your shoulder, but that's not exactly this other dog barking. That's like, yeah. Mm-hmm. If you don't handle it in the way I want, like we are going to, mm-hmm. We have the National Guard on speed dial and we can change the tenor of this conversation immediately

and thinking about the series of events between June 11th and Pride, which then also is No Kings. Mm-hmm. There, you know, organizers were. Warned that mm-hmm. The, that the sheriff was calling and saying he wanted National Guard. Mm-hmm. He wanted a full tactical presence at Pride, you know, to show this community that, that he was gonna be tough on whatever. but fortunately, you know, that did not happen. Mm-hmm. I think we, you know, my experience on the night of the 14th mm-hmm. When it sort of moved into police getting involved

mm-hmm.

was being, was very aware that if the sheriff showed up, it felt like it would escalate the situation immediately.

Yeah.

And even I was surprised by how much the commu, the broad community like crowd there seemed to understand the different risk When the sheriff arrived, and even on the 14th, you know, the sheriff stayed back for most of the early evening, was sort of concentrated around the courthouse. And after the curf, after the dispersal order mm-hmm. Was called, you know, showed up very quick and there were. Officers. Mm-hmm. There were sheriff's officers armed with weapons and tactical gear. Again, you know, there was, yeah. I don't, I'm not, I need to, I guess, get familiar on my guns, which is not a thing I wanted to do, but Yeah. you know, like the big orange like shotgun looking thing mm-hmm. That I'm assuming shoot was rubber bullets or bean bags, you know? Mm-hmm. Like they were being, they were lining up in a way that was making it clear. Mm-hmm. Like it was intimidation.

Yeah.

And the sad thing for me that night was that there was no, it was really a moment of like whose streets? Our streets on all sides. And there was not clarity around like what the purpose was. Mm-hmm. And I deeply believe, and as it turned out that once SPD and the sheriff turned around and left, everybody studied. Oh yeah. There was nothing left to shout about. There's nothing on the 14th, you know?

Yeah. Like, I watched that happen. Like I was on the phone with Luke and I was like, Luke, like I'm a little scared, like there's shooting the pepper balls. Like I. You know, put my goggles on. I had our producer Pascal there with me who's like very young and I'm like trying to keep them safe. But then we kept getting separated. I was with you Hadley, and

yeah, I would just give Val credit who I got the worst cramp of my life. I've never had this happen. I fell, I was running and I fell over so quickly and was so paralyzed in pain that somebody thought I had been shot. Yeah. And I had to be like, no, I'm fine. Keep going. Because somebody else actually was wounded. Mm-hmm. And we were trying to get to someone who was shot by a rubber bullet mm-hmm. And was bleeding and needed medical attention. Mm-hmm. Um, which is a good connection to scorn. 'cause that's part of why we decided we needed more street medics. Okay. but ultimately, you know, I think there is that question around like that. That positioning and that posturing

mm-hmm.

Is something the community is very aware of. Mm-hmm. And very reactive to, and I would hope that SPD is using this awareness to like, put pressure on the fact that they will be less able to do their jobs in the city. Mm-hmm. If the sheriff, if there's not a relationship of mm-hmm. Sort of authority and, and safety with the sheriff.

Yeah. So you got a bunch of reports filed earlier mm-hmm. This week to OPO. how many more of these clinics do you have left and what is it kind of building up to?

Yeah, so we, the OPO has a meeting on August 19th. It's Tuesday, it's at 5:30 PM at City Council Chambers. This is a open meeting, very similar to City Council. There's like a public comment period, so you can come in and sign up. We really wanna make that meeting loud, like we wanna see as many people as possible. And the chamber obviously not loud. You gotta. Be quiet in the chambers, but, you know, we like, want as many people to give public comment and we really want some visibility for the OPO to see, we need you to be watching this investigation very closely. Mm-hmm. And the community, you know, may not have a lot of time for reports. Mm-hmm. But we have a lot of fear and a lot of complaints to talk about.

Mm-hmm.

so part of it has been helping people, you know, get their sort of testimony and feel comfortable giving comment.

Mm-hmm. And

really we're trying to push people to, to show up to that meeting. Mm-hmm. Just to be clear, it's sort of a, it's a, it's a thing that would be great to have, voices at that's not a real deadline. Mm-hmm. If you haven't gotten an OPO complaint, you have, I think up to two years or something to complain about, issues. So. We, it's more important to get it in eventually. Mm-hmm. Even if you can't get it in by the 19th. But the goal was sort of to make sure that by the time they got to that meeting they saw no, it's gonna be a lot more mm-hmm. Than 11th complaints. at this exact moment we have wrapped up most of our clinics. Mm-hmm. But we do have a bunch of volunteers through Scorn who are able to still help people and we'll hop on Zoom or the phone. Nice. and again, you know, can meet with people if need be. Mm-hmm. To kind of walk through things with folks. Cool. so I'm like happy to,

if somebody wanted to get that kind of help, how would they reach out to you?

Yeah, that's a great question. probably the easiest way right now is to email me 'cause I'm kind of directing people towards support. you can find my email at hello at Hadley, H-A-D-L-E-Y. Dot Consulting, C-O-N-S-U-L-T-I-N-G. There's no.com or anything and that's very confusing, but you're allowed to do that now.

Okay. We did, we did Range Media dot Gay First Pride. So

see I missed an opportunity there. Uh, but hello@hadley.consulting and I'm happy to connect you with some of our awesome scorn volunteers. SCORN stands for Spokane Community Organized Response Network. Mm-hmm. And we kind of mobilized actually. After, like directly after June 14th and 11th. Mm-hmm. Um, seeing that across some of the folks who often volunteer as peacekeepers mm-hmm. Through PJ ls awesome peacekeeping program and folks who, um, you know, sort of just show up as you know, a lot of the mutual aid organizations mm-hmm. Were there on the 14th handing out water and things. Mm-hmm. We ran across some awesome street medic who had never met before mm-hmm. Who gave me some electrolytes and was like, really awesome. Um, so we, but we were like, oh, if, if this is gonna be the level of response, it's really important that we keep our community safe. Mm-hmm. A strategy that we're really called towards right now is thinking about how we can mobilize and organize our protests so well and so mm-hmm. Tactically safe that we don't actually need, they can't justify Yeah. A police presence to show up If we can replace some of the things like, like medics, like, you know, having peacekeepers to mm-hmm. Help folks, you know, make sure they obey We are, are, are choiceful about when we obey and disobey mm-hmm. Traffic laws you. Some of these things are gonna make it more likely. Mm-hmm. That folk, that we don't actually have to have police at protests. There are certain times, there are certain what we, they call bright lines that if they get crossed mm-hmm. They have to be there. If we're gonna march in streets, that might, intersect with hospital corridors like division and brown or two streets that have to be accessible to make sure ambulances get there. No protestor wants to stop an ambulance from getting the hospital, I hope. and so we wouldn't wanna do that, but, you know, on the 14th mm-hmm. There were some awesome inspired young folks who mm-hmm. Started, you know, taking to the street and I love that energy, but not all of them maybe knew mm-hmm. That if they started to march towards those streets, police were gonna intercept them. Okay. And that was perceived very quickly as a, you know Yeah. A, a violation or a front, which helped, like, raised the tension in the situation. Yeah. So it's just, you know, some of, some of the US organizers who have done this a long time have the privilege of some of this information. Mm-hmm. And it's, I really wanna make sure that we are, you know, sharing that and training each other mm-hmm. So that we can all keep each other safe. so Scorin has a street medic. That like training that we're working on right now. Okay. That we've gotten two sessions through.

Nice.

that we're just, getting some, if you do it, you come first aid certified and everything. Ooh. and hope, you know, we're trying to up the percentage of people who are out in our protest mm-hmm. Who can help with things, you know, heat, stroke, uh mm-hmm. Like minor wounds, sprained ankles, you know. Mm-hmm. Wounded bones, things like that. because another thing we learned unfortunately is that when these big protests happen mm-hmm. When there's a police, zone of control like this, EMTs and fire department and folks will not come in. Oh. so in a sense, people, if they're seriously injured, are on their own and it doesn't feel like SPD or sheriffs were taking accountability in those moments to look at people who are hurt and try to get them aid.

Mm-hmm.

so we really realized, oh, that's gonna actually be on us. Yeah. so that's part of the motivation to try to get more street medics.

Cool. We're gonna come back to mm-hmm. Scorn and protest safety. Mm-hmm. Right after we take quick break. And what does Scorn do?

honestly, we're pretty new, but we have kind of been serving to help mobilize mm-hmm. Across a lot of the different mutual aid networks. Gosh. Spokane is so, like we have so much mutual aid mm-hmm. And so many people who are just rolling up their sleeves and doing good things. Mm-hmm. And I love that. And in this moment we kind of wanna get tactical. Mm-hmm. Like, we wanna make sure that we're supporting those folks with a really solid set of skills mm-hmm. That help keep all of the community safer. So we're thinking about things like street medics. Mm-hmm. We're thinking about things like sort of community safety. A lot of us are peacekeepers with PA Ls and so we're, you know, thinking about how to continue to evolve that work to make sure that the community can sort of protect protest zones, and look out for areas of risk. and we are sort of starting to get, you know, like socialized across all the other mutual aid networks. We love mass. Um, cool. Spokane has been a little, I, I'm a organizer for Cool Spokane as well. We've been a little tired, but we're still around and we're excited to be sort of supporting all these other efforts too.

Cool. You know, Hadley, we were talking about this before we jumped on. One thing I was really struck by was listening to Val's narrative of what it was like to cover the June 14th protests. 'cause I was there on June 11th. Mm-hmm. But not June 14th. And Val talked a lot about like, the kind of chaos of the protest. Mm-hmm. There was no real, like, centralized mm-hmm. Leader or point of information by the, you know, the time in the evening when there was an enhanced police response. Mm-hmm. And your kind of role in trying to facilitate some community safety there.

Mm-hmm.

So I guess I was curious if you could tell us a little bit more about. What goes into being safe at a protest. Mm-hmm. What kind of considerations you're thinking about, what it was like on June 14th?

Yeah, absolutely. And maybe like a little framing of my role in protests often. Mm-hmm. I, um, very commonly volunteer to be police liaison.

Mm-hmm.

The goal of the police liaison is to reduce the number of opportunities there are for police to interact with the protest. Mm-hmm. You're trying to make sure that police liaison is handling the point of contact. If anything does happen where we do need police response, it's that person's job to coordinate that. Mm-hmm. So we can keep to the line of we're all safer when we don't engage with police at protest. Mm-hmm. Period. so often I play this role of sort of like this middle space mm-hmm. in trying to recognize, you know, like that. When police are at protests, we are all actually at risk. Mm-hmm. Like it does increase the likelihood that violence will occur. Mm-hmm. And we should navigate that skillfully. Mm-hmm. and know when we need, when it's the right time to cross the line. So I think in my experience on the 14th, I was deeply questioning mm-hmm. Sort of when it, when it was the right time mm-hmm. And what the purpose was for some folks who felt like crossing that line mm-hmm. And moving into territory where, you know, police were issuing dispersals, um, you know, asking people to get back on the sidewalk and things like that. Mm-hmm. And I wanna actually name like. Let's just stop for a moment and remember that like at one moment I was standing on the middle of them in Monroe Street Bridge. Yeah. Full of so many people. Mm-hmm. Looking to the west or the east to see the post street bridge. Mm-hmm. Full of people knowing that we had a whole entire crowd around that block and that was beautiful. I mean, really, truly beautiful. And I love that there was spontaneous energy to say, no, we need to keep going. And I totally, I feel all together as a community, as institutions, we are going have to get more skilled at holding the rage and the outrage. Mm-hmm. And the feeling of this community and how that looks like when it spills over. And I don't think anyone was prepared to, to hold that on the 14th. I've done a whole lot of reflecting. Mm-hmm. Um, to be clear, the night of the 14th, I was not serving as a police liaison. Mm-hmm. Or a peacekeeper in any official role really, after the No Kings Rally kind of, um, air quotes ended. Mm-hmm. Like speakers stopped, you know, people just sort of organically started marching and moving.

Mm-hmm.

At that point, a number of people who were skilled as peacekeepers were like, we really want, we just really wanna keep people safe. And we made a commitment to kind of just running around. Uh, I would say I. Deescalated a lot of situations of Yeah, I saw that of folks, engaging with police's police in ways that I worried would make everybody less safe. Mm-hmm. Like the second one person starts getting arrested. Mm-hmm. Everybody starts to become at risk.

Mm-hmm.

and like once that first arrest happens mm-hmm. And like opens the door. Yeah. And I realized also that like, you know, I, Val got to see me like frantically running and the OPO was like, we watched all these videos and I could hear myself screaming in the background constantly, like, assess your safety, give somebody your cell phone. Like, we can't let the feds take our cell phones. because I think a lot of folks were there in a moment of mm-hmm. Of feeling and they didn't. and I don't know if that was mm-hmm. Stewarded into like, what is the ending? So since that I've reflected a lot on like what people can think about when they're going into a protest

mm-hmm.

As far as assessing whether or not they wanna be there, first of all, and how to. Each other safe, like ourselves and each other safe. And I've kind of broken down some three rules in my mind. And the first really is you gotta know the goal. Mm-hmm. Like, I'm gonna, I'll, the three rules are know your goal, know your role, and know when to go. It almost rhymes all the way.

Very catchy.

Uh, I tried thought a lot about this, so let's talk about goals. Mm-hmm. It's really important that you know why the protest is being organized, what it's hoping to accomplish. Mm-hmm. It's fully okay if the only thing that it's trying to accomplish is solidarity. Mm-hmm. Is raising awareness is a little moment of rah rah. Like these are all acceptable goals. Mm-hmm. It's also a very acceptable goal if it is to intentionally break the law mm-hmm. In order to commit civil disobedience. Mm-hmm. in order to do something that we believe is just, there's, so there's a big spectrum mm-hmm. Of what your goal can be. And it's possible that you can have your own goal that lives inside of the bigger goal, but if you are there and you don't know why the people around you are there, you are at risk. It's really important also to have a goal so you can know whether or not you succeeded. Mm-hmm. It's hard to know when you can go home if you haven't set a finish line.

Yeah.

And I think if, you know, the goal maybe was just like. To be in community or catharsis. Mm-hmm. Or to let out some rage or to be visible. We need to think about, you know, those aren't things that have solutions. Mm-hmm. So we need to think about how we end that, you know, in protests, often in organizers. So thinking about how we end a rally with mm-hmm. A song or a chant or something that makes it really clear, okay. Like, now it's time to go be in community, go home. Mm-hmm. Uh, and I feel like that was part of the steps that kind of got missed

on the 14th. And, well, real quick, like, you know, one thing that we were noticing, um, you know, at a difference between the June 11th and the June 14th protest was that the June 11th protest had a pretty clear goal of Yep. Stopping the ice from taking stop

these buses from leaving with immigrants that have been detained.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. And on June 14th, it was like the No Kings rally was like kind of that rah rah goal, and then that ended and then the like break off. Protest of that, that was like more spontaneous, didn't really have a goal.

Yeah.

And, and I remember when I first walked up to you and Paul Dillon, you and Paul Dillon, uh, council member, council member, Paul Dylan were talking to police and trying to like, kind of negotiate between police and protestors, and the protestors did not wanna leave. And, and Paul was like, there's no leader here. Like, there, there's no goal. And, and somebody else who's like a more experienced organizer who I like stopped and talked to right. Bef right when I got there, they were like, we don't know why they're here. You know? And we're kind of just sticking to the side because this could get really hairy. So yeah, like that goal thing is really important.

And I don't wanna undervalue that, like claiming a right to our streets. Mm-hmm. After a really horrible people witness so much violence on the 11th, abso, that deserves to be validated. Mm-hmm. But we have to measure it with safety. Mm-hmm. We have to measure it against the long haul. This is a long fight. Mm-hmm. And I worry that some folks sort of threw away. I hate to No, I, I retract that. I don't like how that came outta my mouth because like, it's all valuable. But I, you know, your first protest, arrest. Is a valuable thing. Mm-hmm. And it gets a lot harder to get arrested after you've done it once. It's a lot riskier. Yeah. So once we get to that space of escalation where there's a risk of violence mm-hmm. I want everyone to be thinking very, very carefully. Mm-hmm. And I felt a sadness that I think some people escalated the situation. The, the overall rea and, and like, let's still blame fascism. Mm-hmm. I'm not actually blaming the protesters. Like I'm blaming the fact that like, this is an obvious reaction mm-hmm. To fascism.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, you know, and how that was displayed by our police too. Mm-hmm. Like people had every right to not trust and be rageful mm-hmm. That they were, you know, dominating the streets that night. Um, and also

thinking

strategically about

how do we make this last? Because, because I

observed many of the people who got arrested as being younger folks. Mm-hmm. People who, not, not that like I know all the protesters, but people I haven't seen before and became worried like, are you connected? Do you have resources? Mm-hmm. Do you have people who can help you through this? And then we spent the night, you know, thanks to the folks who have worked at the bail fund and folks from Scar took it upon themselves to go out and help the folks who had been arrested on the 14th as well, even though frankly, like we weren't. You know, that those organizations weren't necessarily connected. Mm-hmm. so it was a

little, I, I was surprised, but not surprised. You know, I was like, oh, like they still help them. That's really nice.

And we, like, I don't want a side effect of protests to be feeding the Carceral system in Spokane. Mm-hmm. Let's remember we have a local battle here mm-hmm. Where there's county commissioners that would love to create a super mega jail like here, and we don't wanna give them more reasons. Mm-hmm. So it's all about sort of measuring that context. Mm-hmm. And I think to being able to take a moment to pause and assess Okay. Like what, what is this actually trying to accomplish? Mm-hmm. And do I think what we're doing is gonna get us there? Mm-hmm. Because if not, maybe I need to step back a little bit. Mm-hmm. Or just move a little bit farther away from the police. Mm-hmm. So I can assess what I really want. Mm-hmm. And that kind of connects to a second. Mm-hmm. Which is what's your role? Mm-hmm. Like this is where you are placing your own goal inside of where you are. I think June 11th is a great sort of example to walk through on where, because there was a clear goal.

Mm-hmm.

Do not leave until they release. Mm-hmm. The, the boys, uh. Because there was a clear goal people could organize mm-hmm. Around what their role would be. Mm-hmm. There was a group of people who said, I'm committing myself to risking arrest. Mm-hmm. I'm committing myself to civil disobedience. And they were able to do the things to get prepared, not all of them. Mm-hmm. Well, you know, to make sure they didn't have their phones, to make sure they had bail prepared to make sure, sure. People were watching their pets and kids. Mm-hmm. You know, that is skilled. Uh, that's, that's, mm-hmm. That's reducing the risk of state, state violence for people is really what it is. And then you can move to, like, think about moving away your levels of risk there. Mm-hmm. There were folks who were like, I'm gonna be an observer. I'm gonna stay right here. Mm-hmm. I'm gonna make sure that you do not get arrested alone. I'm gonna document this whole entire thing. I'm gonna get in my complaints. There were people who said, you know, I have privilege in the size of my body. I can stand here between the cops and smaller people or people of color, you know, and think about our identity privileges. Mm-hmm. You know, and there's folks who might who, um, were like, guess what? I can't be here. Like, I, I, my job will be at risk, my family will be at risk. I can't be here, but I can do a quick drive by and throw some water outta my car. Mm-hmm. Awesome. Thank you. Like someone came and dropped off pizza. Yeah. You know, there was a lady who was

like, I'm on my way home from my job, but I had extra cookies and I just wanted to s swing through and like hand them out to you guys and then left. Um, yeah. So I think just mm-hmm. There's a space for so many people in so many different roles. Yes. To protest.

And when you commit to your role, we get to move from a group of individuals to a collaborating, you know. Organic movement. Mm-hmm. That can say, you know, for, in my experience, I had a very specific role that I took on June 11th. I was like, I'm not gonna move from this position. This is my, this is my role. Mm-hmm. And I had to trust that everyone else was doing their role. Mm-hmm. Like, you know, I didn't have my phone, I couldn't communicate with a lot of those people. But knowing that we had designated, there's gonna be people who are watching. If I get arrested, there's gonna be people who are ready to take my bail phone call makes everybody more able to tap in.

Mm-hmm.

And then be in that moment and assess your risk and safety. Mm-hmm. Like what can you actually commit to, not everybody, not everybody should be risking arrest. Mm-hmm. And people who are risking arrest, we hope we can create the conditions mm-hmm. To do it tactically, meaningfully, and ideally as safe as possible, because it's still very dangerous. Mm-hmm. We are still sending people to one of the most dangerous deadly police forces in the nation. Mm-hmm. We cannot. Undermine. Mm-hmm. Like that risk. When we think about turning into the streets,

we talked to Ben Stucker after the protest, and he was talking about like, even the conditions in the van, like after getting arrested and waiting in the van to get taken to jail. Monkey Hot,

they wouldn't open the windows for air conditioning. Somebody

like had their period and like bled through their pants and like, like even something like that, like if you had, you know, a heart condition mm-hmm. Where if you're in a hot car for extended period of time, like that could kill you. You know? So I, I think I, I never, I hadn't really appreciated, I guess the, the amount of risk that you have to consider. 'cause like, I never thought, like, oh man, like I had, if I got arrested, I would have to make sure, and, and I, you know, didn't have a partner at home. I'd have to make sure somebody's there to feed my dog or cat or whatever. And like. And that's just something that doesn't really cross your mind and I think doesn't cross a lot of people's minds. specifically like on June 14th with people who were not very experienced. And

then you might end up in situations where people who are arrested mm-hmm. Are, um, you know, gonna basically have leverage held over them that makes it, I possible for them to continue to be part of the movement mm-hmm. Or makes them compromised so we can't organize with them. Mm-hmm. And that's part of what we're trying to prevent here too. It's like, let's be, let's use our risk when it's really wise. And I'll name like the complication. I felt very conflicted on June, June 14th, running around between police and community, going back and forth, feeling like I was negotiating with power. Like it did not feel good, but it was in a recognition, again, placing in that context that. The state has a monopoly on violence. Mm-hmm. And there was no way we would've been able to protect each other mm-hmm. If the police decided to be violent that night.

Mm-hmm.

And the safest move without a clear goal that we were trying to move towards mm-hmm. Was to try to deescalate. Mm-hmm. And I'm grateful that eventually they just did leave. Mm-hmm. But like, unfortunately, a lot of people got hurt and a lot more people got arrested before that. And the fact that they left in the end of the night just drives home how. Pointless. It was right. Like, like, you know, if people had just been allowed to keep marching Yeah. It would've annoyed traffic, but everyone would've petered out. I, I mean, yeah. You get, I wanna give credit to the fact that they marched for like six hours. Like it started at like four o'clock and it, like we, the curfew or whatever was called at like nine or something. Like, that's, that's a lot of unplanned, marching way to go, everybody. Uh, and like that's a win too. Mm-hmm. And I feel sad that it didn't get to end on Yeah. At least. And not even a win. 'cause it's still, I'm, I'm like, it's still, what was it? Like it's still, yeah, it's still a, yeah. You know? Mm-hmm. A protest without a specific action. But I believe in the need for us to continue to show each other mm-hmm. That we're on the streets and we will react and we will organize. Mm-hmm. And that is creating connections, like through scoring I've met. Mm-hmm. I've, these are all people I've met at protests, all people I've met volunteering as a peacekeeper, and now we are connected in a way that's helping us, like actually skillful, like, use our skills to help keep each other safe. And that feels really empowering.

That's awesome. So what are the questions you need to ask yourself to know when you need to go? Mm-hmm. Yes.

So first of all, you should come in ahead of time, hopefully with an assessment of your risk for arrest. Mm-hmm. I think everybody should be orienting themselves around the possibility of arrest. If police are there, the risk is exists. Mm-hmm. I kind of, in my mind, like to think about like a red, orange, yellow kind of situation. I think it's clear we don't actually get to know what the police consider red, orange, yellow, mm-hmm. In a, in a, you know, action or a protest, but. You need to be thinking about your relationship to the hot zones, basically. Mm-hmm. So if you are a person who cannot risk arrest, if you are a person who cannot be, you know, who can't be seen 'cause your boss is gonna get mad. Mm-hmm. Like one weigh those risks. Mm-hmm. Love, we like take them when it's necessary. But what if your job is something that's really vital to the community? Mm-hmm. Like what if you. I don't know, like work at a food bank that's mm-hmm. You, you're the only person who's feeding a bunch of people at your church or something like mm-hmm. We're gonna, yeah. Like, we're gonna weigh that. We're like, you know, hey, like, are, like, do, do we act? Do we want your skills to be at risk? Or do we want your skills in the community? Mm-hmm. So like, people should be thinking holistically about what they can offer and their risk. Think about your family and your dependencies. Like, who's relying on you. Um, I encountered a lot of people on the 11th who were so activated, they were like, heck yeah, I'm committing to arrest. Mm-hmm. I'm not like, I'm gonna help. Mm-hmm. And as we started to talk through it, you know, we're like, wait. Yeah. But no one who's gonna pick up my kid. Mm-hmm. And I totally recognize there's really good humans who jumped to action in the moment. Mm-hmm. But we are all safer if we can take a breath and really think about where to place ourselves. And really like that first question is. Are you a, like, what are the implications and how ready are you to risk arrest? You should be thinking about your positioning based on that question. If you are someone who has the privilege that you could risk arrest. I mean, I'm in a position where I don't have kids.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, you know, I work for myself. I'm not firing me yet. Like, you know, there's, there's fewer dependencies that exist for me. If I take a risk, uh, there's folks who may have the privilege of their bodies are less likely to be targeted by police. Mm-hmm. Uh, that includes, you know. Times where being an elder, uh, white woman maybe, or being a very strong large man, like these are two, there's times where your body can be, can be useful. So it's sort of a combination of like, think about how you're trying to use your privilege to the highest level. Yeah. But then you need to be ready to move. I think what we experienced on the 11th was what's often referred to as kettling.

Mm-hmm.

which is a tactic where police and law enforcement are really cornering the protest into a specific box or a zone. Mm-hmm. Uh, which the idea of once they box everybody in, they have some control over it and can force a dispersal. But what the implication of that was that people couldn't leave. Yeah. People didn't know how to leave. There was no exit. We talked to many folks who were getting contradicting orders around, oh, go to the street. Go to the street. Mm-hmm. And people who got, who were led directly to their arrest. Mm-hmm. After they were told. That's the safe way out. a lot of our, like the activism community, and you know, as we're thinking about demands that we wanna make of the, the police is we wanna, let's ban kettling. This is not New York City has done some work to ban Kettling. Oh, interesting. Um, there's some, there's some precedent for it. Mm-hmm. I mean, we should not be saying that you, they, all those people had a first man right. To be on the street mm-hmm. Until the police change their minds about that. Yeah. Which is not, that's a whole nother thing we can talk about. But then if they don't create a path of safety for people to leave mm-hmm. For people to choose to be lawful, that's a problem.

Yeah.

Uh, so. That thinking about your positioning, like really you gotta be looking around and saying like, I think you should always know where two exits are. Mm-hmm. And if you don't have the ability to move towards an exit, you need to think about how you are sort of protecting your space. Mm-hmm. Um, who's safer to be in the middle of a crowd where if there's a rush you might have a harder time moving or things like that. Mm-hmm. If you have a physical, you know, if you're gonna have a harder time running, it might be great to position yourself farther outside the crowd. Mm-hmm. Or make sure you have a buddy who can watch over you. Um, we can talk a lot about like, tips for protest safety. Mm-hmm. And, like Scar and myself and a lot of other organizers are kind of working on, you know, at PJ City of Training and there will be more. so we wanna get some more content out to the community about that. but I think really. It is about like, I am orienting my thoughts about risk of arrest and risk of state violence. And folks should always be thinking about either their strategy for tactically disobeying mm-hmm. And trying to be as safe as possible. And if you're not willing to do that, what's your exit? Like, what's your way out of this protest? Mm-hmm. And that's not an invitation to just leave when things get uncomfortable. Mm-hmm. I challenge folks to think about how they keep others safe when they stay present.

Mm-hmm.

On the 11th, we had a group of people who were very committed.

Mm-hmm.

If everybody who wasn't just walked away, that would've been a huge risk. Yeah. For all of those folks, um, it's really important that you try to test your limit to like stay and observe. Mm-hmm. You know, keep the crowd, don't let anyone get arrested alone. If you see an area where, where the group is getting really thin, try to keep eyes on it, things like that, are just sort of ways that we keep each other safe. Okay.

What are, for somebody who's maybe a, like very first time protester hears about mm-hmm. A protest happening, I don't know, like next weekend, this isn't a real thing. I'm making this up. What are the kind of basic very, very, very entry level considerations, like anything we haven't covered already?

Yeah, totally. I think when you're thinking about risk, first we'll talk about privacy. Mm-hmm. You do not have a right to privacy at protests. I'm just gonna be blunt. Like there's, you don't. Mm-hmm. Um, you are in the streets where there are cameras constantly. At, on June 11th, there were drones being flown by SPD, by the feds. everyone had, you know, police have body cams and street cameras. People are filming. Like, you just don't, you do not have a right to privacy on the streets. And I'm sorry if, but that's the truth.

Mm-hmm.

If you are concerned about that, consider masking. Mm-hmm. Consider wearing all black, consider things that sort of anonymize your presence. but you do need to know that. They will, if you are there, they will likely know there's lots of evidence that ICE is using, you know, illegal cell phone technology mm-hmm. To figure out who's at protests and things like that. So that's another area. The pro the phone thing. I was like, I'm gonna admit, like early on I was a skeptic. I was like, really? Like, they're not gonna take my phone. They took everyone's phones. Mm-hmm. Y'all, they took all the phones and they kept them for like over a month. Mm-hmm. The phones went from SPD to the sheriff to, to FBI. They played hot potato for a month. Mm-hmm. you gotta take that seriously. Mm-hmm. If you have a phone, if you're going there because you wanna document mm-hmm. Don't let yourself be in a position where you're gonna get arrested, because now they have all of the footage that could have been used to help, you know, counter a, a narrative.

Mm-hmm. If

you, I think buddy system is crucial. Even if you, you like really wanna go to the protest, but you don't have a buddy. Make sure there's somebody who knows where you are. It can be, you know, an online discord friend, like that's fine, but mm-hmm. Somebody who you have an agreement that we're gonna check in at this time.

Mm-hmm.

Or, you know, you're gonna know where I am.

Mm-hmm.

Or especially if I don't call you by this time, then it's your job to check bail and check, uh, like jail. Mm-hmm. Like, you know, we gotta, and check the hospitals, like, find me. and also people are actually really nice. Mm-hmm. That's the thing. That's, so I think that we, we had a conversation with some SPD officers about how a lot of folks, uh, a lot of them perceive the shouting and the, the chanting as threatening, as scary, as like aggressive. But once you kinda walk into the crowd, you're like, everybody's so nice and joyful. if you're new to a protest, do not be afraid to find somebody and ask them and say, Hey, this is my first protest. Mm-hmm. I actually need some help. I need a buddy. I'd literally like to make sure there's someone who has eyes on me. I promise you people will help. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, you might have some bad luck, like, but find someone else. Uh, and don't be afraid to, uh. Yeah, just like really don't, don't be afraid to connect because I've never experienced like people not wanting to help each other at these things.

Nice. Cool. We have three minutes left. If folks wanna come to the Office of Police Ombuds meeting, I'm gonna give you one last chance to tell folks about how they can get involved.

Yes. Please, please join us. Mm-hmm. Come down to the OPO meeting. It's Tuesday, August 19th at 5:30 PM at City Council Chambers. You know, let's right down at Spokane Falls Boulevard, um, feel free to come down a little early. We know there's like a good crowd of people who are really committed. Um, the goal is just to come down and share what you witnessed, share, uh, complaints or recommendations for SPD around the violence and sort of, uh, overreach that we observed at protests

and at this meeting. is like the police chief gonna be there, or usually there, or, that's actually a really great question. I'm gonna

like, this is a learning area for me. This will be my first OPO meeting.

I wanna say typically no. Yeah. It's like Bart Logan, the Ombuds. Okay. And the other folks in his staff. However, I don't know that this is necessarily going to be a typical mm-hmm. Meeting. So the rules might be out the window as far as what you can usually expect in attendance.

True. We have tried to warn them that we're, you know, trying to load the, load, the comments.

Alright, cool. Val, that's our time. Yeah. Free Range is a weekly news and public affairs program presented by Range Media and produced by Range Media and KYRS Community Radio. I'm Aaron, that's Val. We're here with Hadley Morrow, and we're signing off. Hi.