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This is Conservation and Science podcast, where we take a deep dive
into topics of ecology, conservation and human wildlife interactions.

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I'm Tommy Serafinski, and I always strive to bring you diverse
perspectives on every environmental story that I cover.

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And what that means is that sometimes I talk with people
who might be on the opposing ends of environmental debate.

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And the reason I'm doing this is because we need more dialog
and understanding and less division and fighting,

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not only in environmental stories, but in life in general.

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But, in this podcast,
we're really concerned with environmental stories.

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So in other words, I try to make you to listen to people
you might have not listened to otherwise.

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And today we are taking on the topic of offshore
wind or offshore wind farms.

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And this topic, like a lot of, 
environmental topics, has, well, divides opinions.

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Some people say this is the best thing ever.

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We need wind farms in a transition to help us, in the transition,
from fossil fuels to renewable energy.

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And what the better place than the open ocean?

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We have, a lot of wind there.

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That wind blows unobstructed by landscape features
and by some buildings, maybe.

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And also, look at all that space.

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We can spare land for agriculture or for wildlife.

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So this is the best thing.

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But on the other hand, people who are opposing,

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those wind farms, offshore wind farms are saying, well,
we shouldn't really be industrializing seas.

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And the arguments revolve mainly about the unknown impacts
on the wildlife, on the marine wildlife.

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Once those wind farms operate, but also on much better known impacts
on the marine wildlife, cetacean, specifically marine mammals,

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while those, constructions are being built, being the pylons
being hammered, there's like a massive noise pollution that can,

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well, injured or killed sometimes,
cetaceans, dull dolphins and whales and porpoises and so on.

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So today, we are taking head on on this topic,
and our guest is marine biologist Doctor Stephen Comerford,

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who is already a marine biodiversity officer
at the Irish Whales and Dolphins group.

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And Stephen worked, with oil and gas industry
as well as offshore renewables

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as a person who was responsible for mitigating, the negative impacts.

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He has a vast experience and now works with charity
Irish Whales and Dolphin Group, overseeing,

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development of those things
and being responsible for the policy around offshore renewables.

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So he's seen the good, the bad, the ugly.

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And I'm going to dive today with Stephen. We're into the good,
the bad, the ugly.

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So at the end of this episode, you will have a better understand

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of what is really going on, what are the mitigations that are possible
or whether it is going to happen or not.

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And a lot of other information is around the development
of those offshore wind farms around Ireland specifically.

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So at least you will be better informed of what's going on,
and you will hear that information based on

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what is actually happening,
not based on who screams the loudest on social media.

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So I hope that if you're interested in offshore renewables, or
maybe you're concerned about development of offshore renewables, after

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listening to this episode, you will have better views and that episode
will help you to, well, basically refine your views on this topic.

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That's it for this introduction.

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So, ladies and gentlemen, please welcome Stephen Comerford. Stephen,
welcome to the show.

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Thank you very much to me. It's a pleasure to have you.

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And this is the second time someone from Irish, Wes in Dolphin
Group is on the podcast.

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So I am delighted due to have you on.

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Very good.

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Yeah, we met at the, 
All Ireland Marine, Doyle Ireland Mammal Conference to do some Galway.

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Yes, exactly, exactly. And mammal includes marine mammal.

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That's why that's why we're here today.

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So I just want to start with, you know, a little bit of a,
of a, of a background Europe where you would be

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whale watching you observing whales of the Irish gulls
for many, many years.

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What was your most memorable encounter? Memorable encounter?

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Yeah, I

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was there was one stand out, encounter.

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We were out on the Celtic mist.
More than I think is more than ten years ago.

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There were there were a bunch of us
there, colleagues and friends and, some international students.

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And we were out on the shelf edge on the porcupine Bank.

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So we were some distance off shore.

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And, it was the middle of the day.

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We had a hugely successful trip so far with saw so many species,
and we were relax, knocked out.

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The boat was drifting and there were fin willows all around us.

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And we were enjoying that and watching the whales
and or dolphins everywhere.

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And next thing very big blows.

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And fin whales have very big blows. The,
the second biggest mammal, second biggest whale.

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And so they are very big animals.

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And we were thinking, wouldn't it be great if we saw a blue whale?

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And then this, this whale came alongside the boat
and it was a slightly different color.

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We all got and then big blow and then it's float and it showed its tail.

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And fin whales don't do that, but blue whales do.
So positive identification.

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Two blue whales.
We were absolutely blown away. I'd never seen one before.

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I haven't seen one since.

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Rare encounters in Irish waters because they're very far off shore.

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And also,
it's easy to mix them up with fin whales or whales for that matter.

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So if you're just looking at blows, there's no way you could say,
oh, that was a blooper.

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But the boat, the way it was right alongside the boat,
we saw the fluke, we saw the color, we saw a second one.

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And then to add to us even more, an aircraft aircraft flew over us
and it was the Air Corps on, on fisheries patrol.

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And they called us up on the radio and,
they said, you know, who are you?

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What are you up to kind of thing.

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And, so we had a chat and I said,
there are two blue whales in front of the boat.

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And they said, oh, great, we'll try and get photos.

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And they got an absolutely classic photograph
of two blue whales, in line, one behind the other from the aircraft.

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Beautiful photograph. And they also got really good photograph
of the Celtic mates and the skipper.

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And, McAllister was up on the top of the mast at the time splashing.
And it was, it was just fabulous.

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It was perhaps the best trip ever.

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The of the sun tastic. Fantastic.

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Yes. The, I'm the you know, definitely

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that something that anyone remembers because those rare encounters is 
or something that tends to stick in our memory.

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Listen, Steven, we we going to talk about, serious stuff, though.

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It's all nice.
But we going to talk about the offshore renewable energy.

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And, you know,
you have an experience worldwide working, with the industry.

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And tell me whether any surprising way or ways,
that you learn about marine

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mammals, how they're interact with these, 
offshore, offshore renewable infrastructure.

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Well, you know, that's very much part of of what do I do in fact, my

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my role is now specifically to deal with the interaction
between whales and dolphins and offshore renewables.

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So, yeah, there are many ways in which renewables, offshore renewables,
wind farms can interact with, with whales

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and dolphins, some of them negative, some of them neutral,
perhaps some of them positive to the biggest issue for us.

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And the the biggest issue for everyone is underwater noise.

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And as you're probably aware,
whales, dolphins, porpoises are extremely sensitive to noise.

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And underwater noise travels very far, propagates
in a completely different way to the way it does in air.

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So a lot of the sort of characteristics of noise
that we understand as humans, we,

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we, we're that doesn't represent
what goes on water and whales and dolphins are, are acoustic animals.

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They live in an acoustic world. They live in a dark world.

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You know, a lot of the information they get is true, is true sound.

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So it's very important.

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It is as important, perhaps as sizes to us to.

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It's a very crude analogy, but,

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you know, they get a great deal of the information they need,
you know, to communicate and to haunt and to forage.

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And, and so, you know, it's it's very important.

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It's it's central to their very, their very existence.

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And when the construction of wind farms can be done in a number of ways,
but the most usual way to do is

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and the way that it is proposed to the first tranche
of of wind farms in Irish waters is with piling.

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So piling is is where you get a steel pile,
which is essentially just a steel tube

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and you knock us into the ground with a hammer, like a nail.

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It's a it's a simple a very understandable analogy, perhaps,
but these these bubbles are absolutely huge.

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And they're proposing piles now that are ten meters diameter.
You know, they're massive.

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So what happens is, is the pile is placed on the seabed
by a piling vessel, which it's a heavy lift vessel.

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And then they they drop a big hydraulic hammer onto the top of the pile.

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And then they knock us in with this high hydraulic hammer.

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So it's incredibly noisy.

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The the motor is inside of just huge areas of, of the sea.

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And that is, that's, you know, that's the British point for us.

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That's the really that's the dangerous part.

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And if you think of the of the rollout of offshore renewables in Ireland

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specifically the first phase, what what are known as the phase
one projects, there are six of them, five in the Irish Sea.

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One of the

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catamarans go to that really isn't so much concerned
because they intend to gravity foundations.

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So there's no piling associated with that.

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So they have a whole new different set of problems
for themselves and technical challenges.

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But underwater noise isn't going to be as big an issue.

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So if we sort of narrow
or focus down onto the five projects in the Irish Sea,

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four of them have, sent in their planning applications
to onboard Prunella.

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And as part of those planning applications, they submit environmental
impact assessment reports, which are these absolutely mammoth documents

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that there's attempt to capture all elements of the marine environment
and birds and, you know, the landfall, the interior,

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all of the interactions, and also some of the social interactions
as well as with transport as well.

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But it's an it's an environmental assessment.

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So from, from these, you know, we learned that there are going to be
x number of piles and x number of are they these are proposed jobs.

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So these are, these are applications they propose,
you know, say for argument's say 50 on average, 50, turbines per sites.

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And that's five sites, you know, 250 turbines of these
these are very rough numbers.

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And there are a lot of there are a lot of subtleties to that.

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But for the sake of the sake of outlining us, 
so each piling events can go on for hours.

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And each planning event has the ability to an absolute worst case
scenario, actually injure whales and off some porpoises.

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You know, the can cause, cause can cause acoustic trauma.
That's a very short ranges.

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And, you know, there's there's no need to overstate that, I think.

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But but more importantly, the the area of disturbance is huge.

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And with a more recent focus on porpoises, recently, the observed I'm
going off on tangent there, but the, the observe reports has just been

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published, digital aerial surveys around Irish waters recently
published and it's it paints a pretty grim picture for porpoises.

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Compared with the last observed reports,

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that they looked to be, essentially gone from the captaincy
and what would have been a very healthy population

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of porpoises in the Irish
Sea has reduced to quite a concentrated small population in the North.

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So the indications are bad for porpoises and I think to circle back
they are particularly vulnerable to underwater noise.

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And they're also particularly vulnerable to displacement because
porpoises, as you may know, that they're the smallest by cetaceans.

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They're very small and like all small organisms,
they need to feed constantly.

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The analogy is that they are the marine equivalent of a of a shrew.

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So, you know, they need to feed all the time.

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So they're they're cryptic animals. They, they're,
they have of high fidelity.

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So, you know, a porpoise has its patch or its group of vocalizes
have their patch, they feed they're, they're they're, very secure.

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They're and if they're, if they're displaced from that,

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there are effects that there are effects
perhaps that we up to now have underestimated.

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And that it's not a question of, well,
if they, you know, if two noise a year that they can go there.

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It's not as simple as that.

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And you know, these, these decline in porpoise numbers
and it's reflected in more than just the observed reports as well.

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But you know, reports on the seas, the rock able to talk, as they say,

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for instance, in the Irish Sea, as showed, 
the surveying by 12 has shown a decrease in Falklands numbers.

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A figure on the quarter is not just an Irish Sea problem.

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I live in. I live in West Kerry,
so I actually overlooked the blasted sound.

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The blanket islands are there.
There's it's designations in SSA for harbor, for places.

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And I haven't seen a porpoise for years,
you know? So something's happening.

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They're under pressure. So?

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So our concern is the piling in the Irish Sea.

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It's a very specific concern,
but fortunately, it's a problem that can be solved.

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The technology exists to greatly reduce the amount of noise
that goes out into the into the water column from a piling

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that we can use, devices, bubble curtains or one
and it's a very it's a very it's a very simple device to understand.

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It's a, it's a, it's a tube laid on the seabed and the tube goes up
to, a vessel that has a compressor or multiple compressors on board,

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and it pumps high pressure air into this tube.

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And the tube is full of holes and bubbles rise up.

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And the bubbles had this almost magical property
of preventing the sound from propagating out from the piling of it.

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Happy days.

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So you can push a bubble curtain around the pile.

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It will greatly reduce the motor sound that goes out of the environment.

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If you put another one outside that again,
you further reduce, you know, it's this is proven technology.

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They use it in Europe. The is in the States. It works.

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But of course there's always a push.

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It doesn't work as well in deeper waters.

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And some of the Irish projects are going to be in deeper
waters, deeper as in 40m.

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50m. I'm not talking about 150m, you know.

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So even within the depths that you can use multiple monopoles,
the effectiveness of the bubble caulking reduces with that depth also.

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And this is intuitive to understand.

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If it's a high current regime,
the bubbles get taken away by the currents.

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So instead of a bubble bubble curtain,
you can imagine like putting a tube over the piling of it,

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suddenly it's all skewed to one side or skewed to the other, but curved,
so they become less effective.

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So it's not.

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But there are other methods.

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There are also other methods with great promise.

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So a lot of the sort of source reduction methods actually reduce the
noise the hammer makes or actually uses something other than a hammer.

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There's one there's one called blue piling,
which is a hammer, and it's very clever.

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It uses hydraulic, but all hammers are hydraulic.

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But this eases a body of water to slow down the impacts and spread.

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It's that high rise time. It's problem with noise.
So it spreads out the impact.

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It's actually increases the efficacy of the actual piling as well
and is greatly reduces the noise.

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So you've got another technology
which can be brought to bear, which is less depth.

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Our current regime are dependent as well. So that's all good.

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So there's great optimism about these technologies.

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00:17:29,766 --> 00:17:30,633
There are others.

202
00:17:30,633 --> 00:17:34,566
You can use a system called vibro piling.
So that vibrates the whole pile.

203
00:17:34,566 --> 00:17:38,466
It literally makes its way down into the substrate.

204
00:17:38,466 --> 00:17:40,833
So there's promise there.

205
00:17:40,833 --> 00:17:47,733
There's a jetting technology which that they've been using this year
I think, or said push three piles and using a jet and technology

206
00:17:48,133 --> 00:17:49,500
this year.

207
00:17:49,500 --> 00:17:55,333
And the the noise it produced was barely above background noise.

208
00:17:55,333 --> 00:18:00,900
You know, the ships were nearly as noisy,
you know, that were in the area were nearly as easy as the piling of it.

209
00:18:00,900 --> 00:18:04,200
So that's just hugely encouraging.

210
00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:11,433
And that, that this, this, this technology is being developed
now obviously jetting or any of these are dependent on the substrates.

211
00:18:11,900 --> 00:18:16,800
You know, I think that obviously they chose the
so the substrate was kind to them in the oyster case,

212
00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:22,966
I'm sure I'm not an engineer,
but there are presumably are types of grounds.

213
00:18:22,966 --> 00:18:24,966
You wouldn't bet that wouldn't work.

214
00:18:24,966 --> 00:18:26,866
There's also, drilling.

215
00:18:26,866 --> 00:18:30,933
You can actually you can actually drill a hole in as well.

216
00:18:30,933 --> 00:18:37,366
So so these all exist and there
and then to go back out to sort to devices that prevent the sounds

217
00:18:37,766 --> 00:18:40,966
that is generated from propagation for a cofferdam.

218
00:18:40,966 --> 00:18:46,933
So the resonators and sleeves that can be used so the technology exists.

219
00:18:46,933 --> 00:18:50,900
But of course there is another push. It's very expensive.

220
00:18:50,900 --> 00:18:54,333
So the developers are in the Irish case.

221
00:18:54,333 --> 00:18:58,800
So they're, they're
they're putting in their environmental impact assessment reports.

222
00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:02,733
And they have to do something
called a marine mammal mitigation plan as part of that.

223
00:19:02,733 --> 00:19:11,600
So they survey the mammals and they try and build a picture of what
marine mammals are likely to be there and how many the densities.

224
00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:16,633
And, you know, that's very, very science.
That's not easy. It's not easy to do.

225
00:19:16,633 --> 00:19:18,400
You need a lot of data.

226
00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:24,300
And even if you do have a lot of data and say, you know,
this is the population density and we're very

227
00:19:24,300 --> 00:19:29,833
we're very confident that this is what it is. Pick a number. But,
you know, maybe they're not going to be there in the day.

228
00:19:29,833 --> 00:19:31,533
Maybe there'll be twice as many on the day.

229
00:19:31,533 --> 00:19:33,800
They're mobile animals, you know.

230
00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:38,866
And and we you know, we know a bit about what they do or where they go,
but not that much.

231
00:19:38,866 --> 00:19:43,900
So our focus has always been on mitigate for the sounds,

232
00:19:43,900 --> 00:19:49,900
you know, perhaps don't waste too much energy and trying to work out
how many poor places there are per square kilometer.

233
00:19:50,400 --> 00:19:51,933
Is, is really that important? Yes.

234
00:19:51,933 --> 00:19:52,300
Of course.

235
00:19:52,300 --> 00:19:59,733
Support, but it's not as important as what you bring to bear
to reduce the amount of noise that was made to.

236
00:19:59,766 --> 00:20:00,800
That was my question.

237
00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:07,966
You know, how how likely any of those technologies is going to be used
because you and I understand this is all in the planning phase,

238
00:20:07,966 --> 00:20:14,700
but it's it's kind of like a repeat, a scenario that, yeah,
we have all those wonderful technologies.

239
00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:19,800
But in the meantime, let's do it quick and let's do it
cheap and let's just pile on those.

240
00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:26,400
So how, you know, how does that, side of it looks like,
is there any lobbying going on

241
00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:34,666
to use those technologies or, you know, like what what are the chances
that we actually see them being used in those projects?

242
00:20:34,766 --> 00:20:36,166
I think the chances are good.

243
00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:41,400
And and I think the, you know, the lobbying is very much
is is part of my job.

244
00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:45,400
We have good working relationships with the developers.

245
00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:49,000
They are open to these conversations.

246
00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:53,500
You know,
they're not I've worked in essentially two offshore industries.

247
00:20:53,500 --> 00:20:58,600
I've worked for oil and gas and seismic search,
and I've worked for offshore renewables on the pilings.

248
00:20:58,600 --> 00:21:03,900
So it all to do with mitigation for noise
and, you know, working at sea and trying to prevent that.

249
00:21:03,900 --> 00:21:12,233
There's interaction and contrary the offshore renewable energy
industry is way ahead of the of the gas industry.

250
00:21:12,733 --> 00:21:17,333
They are far more concerned about the environment top down, bottom up.

251
00:21:17,333 --> 00:21:22,366
They have a completely different focus.
I mean, I don't citizens disparage awake.

252
00:21:22,366 --> 00:21:24,700
They are still engineers.

253
00:21:24,700 --> 00:21:29,700
You know, they have a job to do
and they take an engineering approach to us, which is correct.

254
00:21:29,700 --> 00:21:30,900
Of course it is.

255
00:21:30,900 --> 00:21:39,300
But they are far more concerned about the environment and far more, 
they seek solutions to these problems.

256
00:21:39,700 --> 00:21:40,700
And obviously they do.

257
00:21:40,700 --> 00:21:46,300
Are these, these technologies to reduce the sound, the noise
abatement systems, they wouldn't even exist.

258
00:21:46,300 --> 00:21:52,600
So and the other thing is you've got a strong regulatory structure
that originated in Germany

259
00:21:53,233 --> 00:21:59,633
and has spread across the European countries
that's are are building out, offshore renewables.

260
00:21:59,733 --> 00:22:06,433
And they are a long way ahead of us both in terms of their approach
to us and also to what they've actually built.

261
00:22:06,433 --> 00:22:09,833
I mean, we've got with us a few turbines on the Oracle Bank.

262
00:22:09,833 --> 00:22:12,666
Not all of them work from many years ago.

263
00:22:12,666 --> 00:22:16,400
But, you know, what we're looking at is a very ambitious up.

264
00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:18,666
And let me say, I go off on another tangent here.

265
00:22:18,666 --> 00:22:23,800
Let me just say we really do need to build offshore wind.

266
00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:31,000
You know, the biggest driver for marine biodiversity
loss is ultimately climate change.

267
00:22:31,666 --> 00:22:38,700
And offshore wind is a
is a really important tool in our fight against climate change.

268
00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:44,433
You know, we are
of course, you know, we're getting into this very place.

269
00:22:44,433 --> 00:22:50,433
And there's a there's a certain sort of feeling in Ireland
that we're taking a very haphazard approach to this.

270
00:22:50,533 --> 00:22:55,400
I don't believe that's true.
I think we're taking quite a a pragmatic approach to us.

271
00:22:55,400 --> 00:23:01,733
You might be aware that there are two strands to the build out of that,
the so-called phase ones, which are described

272
00:23:02,133 --> 00:23:10,733
and they're under the old developer led system under which the developer
or multiple developers come and say, I want to put a wind farm there,

273
00:23:10,966 --> 00:23:16,966
and they start to do the work to the surveys, survey
the grounds, survey, mammals, the birds, this one.

274
00:23:16,966 --> 00:23:21,966
Build a picture,
look at the geology, look at access to shore. All of these.

275
00:23:21,966 --> 00:23:24,400
It's incredibly complex. These are huge projects.

276
00:23:25,500 --> 00:23:29,700
So they they do this and then they apply for planning permission for.

277
00:23:29,700 --> 00:23:33,733
So that's the old system, the developer led system that is gone.

278
00:23:33,733 --> 00:23:36,933
So these six projects, the phase ones will go through that.

279
00:23:36,933 --> 00:23:40,800
This process I imagine they won't all get permits.

280
00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:46,800
It's it's it's expected that there will be some,
you know, attrition along the way.

281
00:23:47,233 --> 00:23:49,400
But you know that I'm not talk.

282
00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:54,833
I'm speaking in a broad sense, not not about specific by any means. But,
you know, there's a process to be done.

283
00:23:54,833 --> 00:24:00,100
So it's a very difficult process
and it's a process. It's brand new to all of us in this country.

284
00:24:00,100 --> 00:24:03,400
So it's difficult in every sense. It's difficult for the developers.

285
00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:06,800
It's a difficult for governments. It's difficult for the NGOs.

286
00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:15,900
It's difficult for all all the agencies there are there are
there are difficulties around experience and expert

287
00:24:15,933 --> 00:24:21,966
having experienced personnel having enough of them, training people up,
bringing what needs to be brought to bear.

288
00:24:21,966 --> 00:24:26,766
We've got tiny marine departments within our bigger departments.

289
00:24:26,766 --> 00:24:32,933
They're very small, they are growing and we're starting
to react in response, but we're starting from a very, very low base.

290
00:24:33,266 --> 00:24:36,166
So this is very this is difficult. It's difficult process.

291
00:24:36,166 --> 00:24:45,966
So but as part of this process and we have these ambitions
five gigawatts by 2030, which is never going to happen, 2033 maybe.

292
00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:50,500
You know, there are a lot of bottlenecks or we're, learning as we go.

293
00:24:50,500 --> 00:24:56,200
But so we have the phase ones,
as I've said, under the developer led system.

294
00:24:56,200 --> 00:25:01,866
And then after that, we're switching to a map system,
which is a plan that statelet system.

295
00:25:01,866 --> 00:25:07,900
And as you may be aware,
they've they've designated the first Irish Sea map off the south coast,

296
00:25:07,900 --> 00:25:14,100
the south coast in and Department of Environment tech led that process.

297
00:25:14,100 --> 00:25:17,833
And they you know they they brought a lot to bear.

298
00:25:17,833 --> 00:25:21,700
And I think Decker very much leading this
you know, they're they're they're everywhere.

299
00:25:21,700 --> 00:25:24,166
They're very positive for focus.

300
00:25:24,166 --> 00:25:30,900
They're moving forward, in a way perhaps that nobody else is will take
so they're designated this new map.

301
00:25:30,900 --> 00:25:33,966
It's a very it's a complex process to to designated.

302
00:25:33,966 --> 00:25:37,233
But we're so pleased it's environment.

303
00:25:37,233 --> 00:25:40,133
First it's you know, it's it's a mapping exercise.

304
00:25:40,133 --> 00:25:42,900
And mapping is all about layers of information.

305
00:25:42,900 --> 00:25:46,433
And the first layers in are the environmentalists.

306
00:25:46,433 --> 00:25:47,533
So it's a process.

307
00:25:47,533 --> 00:25:53,833
You add all the layers and then you look at what you've got and you you
rule out certain areas and go, we're not going to put anything here.

308
00:25:53,833 --> 00:25:57,366
We're not running er this good work.

309
00:25:57,366 --> 00:26:01,200
You know, we're not going to put a wind farm in the mouth of,
you know, Cork Harbor.

310
00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:04,800
You know,
there are lots of things with a lot of restrictions. So it's a process.

311
00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:05,933
It's a new year of process.

312
00:26:05,933 --> 00:26:11,400
And then they remove, remove, remove and see what's left
and then say okay well where's the best place.

313
00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:14,666
So the designates a broad area which is the south coast.

314
00:26:14,666 --> 00:26:22,566
And then within that we have designated for specific areas
within which then a developer may be

315
00:26:23,533 --> 00:26:24,833
to goes looking for it.

316
00:26:24,833 --> 00:26:31,000
So in some way the power has been taken out of the developer
or away from the developer and moved back to the states.

317
00:26:31,300 --> 00:26:37,600
So and again it pleases us
that the environment is comes in at the first at the first layer.

318
00:26:38,366 --> 00:26:43,100
So it's a much better process.
It's a better process for the environment.

319
00:26:43,100 --> 00:26:46,400
It's a it's a better process in terms of certainty.

320
00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:52,400
I think for the developers,
we had a ridiculous Klondike situation in Ireland

321
00:26:52,733 --> 00:26:58,633
under the old developer system, where every man in his job
that could raise a couple of million

322
00:26:58,633 --> 00:27:04,800
was out there shooting surveys to to essentially
to try and lay claim to a piece of ground that they could

323
00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:12,600
then say they could apply for, apply to build a wind farm on the basis
that they'd worked on the track record and so on.

324
00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:14,700
So it was very speculative.

325
00:27:14,700 --> 00:27:19,300
So there were guys out there shooting surveys saying nice everywhere.

326
00:27:19,300 --> 00:27:23,700
And the foreshore license application that was on
this was under the old formal license system.

327
00:27:23,700 --> 00:27:27,800
If you looked at the map,
there were these surveys all around the country.

328
00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:29,833
It was a source of madness.

329
00:27:29,833 --> 00:27:35,133
And then, you know, the the Irish civilians are looking at these maps.

330
00:27:35,133 --> 00:27:39,033
They don't really understand the process.
How could they? It's it's a complex process.

331
00:27:39,033 --> 00:27:43,900
And people ran off with the idea
that each of these was going to be a win for that.

332
00:27:43,900 --> 00:27:47,100
The wind farms are going to be literally on top of each other,

333
00:27:47,100 --> 00:27:53,100
and the whole coast was going to be surrounded by turbines,
and it was going to be an environmental and a social disaster.

334
00:27:53,433 --> 00:27:55,266
So clearly

335
00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:59,833
the had someone had lost control of the messaging.

336
00:27:59,833 --> 00:28:03,600
And it's unfortunately very difficult to turn that ship.

337
00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:07,833
So because a lot of communities on the coast
and people are really concerned

338
00:28:07,833 --> 00:28:13,466
about offshore wind, and they are correct to be concerned
because these are massive infrastructure projects.

339
00:28:13,466 --> 00:28:17,133
We are industrializing the sea.

340
00:28:17,133 --> 00:28:20,266
That's the truth. That is what we're doing.

341
00:28:20,266 --> 00:28:23,366
But its effect, I think, is overstated.

342
00:28:23,366 --> 00:28:28,666
People worry about perhaps too much. And also it's scale is overstated.
I think there's a problem with scale.

343
00:28:28,666 --> 00:28:34,500
Some people think that they're just going to open the window
in the morning, and there's going to be a wind farm on Thursday.

344
00:28:34,500 --> 00:28:39,366
That's, it's a, it's a it's a sort of an abstract thing if you like.

345
00:28:39,366 --> 00:28:41,233
And then on the other end of the scale,

346
00:28:41,233 --> 00:28:47,666
the other end of the misunderstanding scale,
I think is people don't really realize how big these things are.

347
00:28:49,633 --> 00:28:54,200
You know, when you when you send on a, on a pilot vessel,
I've been on a pilot vessel

348
00:28:54,200 --> 00:29:02,266
that had a 270 crew, 270 on that vessel
that was in the German section of the North Sea.

349
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:07,533
And we were surrounded by other vessels
that were involved in barges. Bring the pilots.

350
00:29:07,533 --> 00:29:12,733
And this is a heavy lift vessel capable of lifting 10,000 tugs.

351
00:29:12,733 --> 00:29:15,533
And we're putting in what we what they call a jacket.

352
00:29:15,533 --> 00:29:19,400
So shut off and another one,

353
00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:25,400
there's multiple layers, but there are also jackets
and a jacket is more suitable for deeper water.

354
00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:33,033
And you drop a steel frame to the bottom
and then you finish with pilots and they are called thin pilots.

355
00:29:33,466 --> 00:29:37,866
Those tend to be of a smaller diameter than the big model pilots.

356
00:29:37,866 --> 00:29:44,066
So, you know, it's a different approach
tends to be taken for substations and for for deeper water.

357
00:29:44,833 --> 00:29:49,100
More pilots, 3 or 4 per jacket but smaller diameter. So less noise.

358
00:29:49,100 --> 00:29:52,266
But anyway, that was that tangent.

359
00:29:52,266 --> 00:29:54,933
What is I talking about? Jackets.

360
00:29:54,933 --> 00:30:01,366
Since we were up in the North Sea and you look around
and you go, just look at the scale of this,

361
00:30:02,300 --> 00:30:09,733
look at the number of vessels, look at the size of the machinery,
look at these huge structures were pushing into the water.

362
00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:10,866
They are massive.

363
00:30:10,866 --> 00:30:16,833
And when they swing the hammer over
and start to lower down, everyone's running for earplugs.

364
00:30:16,833 --> 00:30:19,966
They're earplugs inside your ear. Defenders.

365
00:30:19,966 --> 00:30:22,000
It's loud and that's in the air.

366
00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:24,333
And it's a lot louder underwater.

367
00:30:24,333 --> 00:30:26,533
An effectively louder underwater.

368
00:30:26,533 --> 00:30:30,800
So so just to say that people people don't really understand the scale,

369
00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:33,600
they, they, they,

370
00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:40,000
they tend to overestimate how many of them they're going to be,
but they underestimate how big the individual ones are feeling.

371
00:30:40,766 --> 00:30:41,933
So yeah.

372
00:30:41,933 --> 00:30:51,433
So but you know this you know, it sounds it's a, it's a, it's
a, it's a harsh term that we will industrialize our, our marine space.

373
00:30:51,433 --> 00:31:00,600
It's, it sounds not like something that, an NGO would support, but,
but it is something that an NGO supports.

374
00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:02,033
This NGO certainly.

375
00:31:02,033 --> 00:31:11,400
And across the NGOs, you know, those people who are, who work with
and are concerned for the environment, regardless

376
00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:17,400
whether it's a single species, are our, our,
our species group or type or, you know,

377
00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:23,700
they're all aware of the pressures being at the.

378
00:31:23,700 --> 00:31:29,700
Com from climate change and the way that's going to increase
and that we have to do something about this.

379
00:31:29,733 --> 00:31:32,333
We have to more something we have to do a lot of boats.

380
00:31:33,366 --> 00:31:34,900
This is a this is a question,

381
00:31:34,900 --> 00:31:41,266
that, that, I have in my mind,
you know, like, like you said on the surface,

382
00:31:41,266 --> 00:31:47,600
you wouldn't imagine that the NGO would support
inequality called industrialization of the sea.

383
00:31:47,933 --> 00:31:56,133
But then climate change and the effects of climate change
are devastating to the environment as well.

384
00:31:56,766 --> 00:32:02,400
How do you how do you navigate those contradictions?

385
00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:10,033
Because I would imagine that your role is difficult in that way,
that you have these, these, these two contradicting

386
00:32:10,700 --> 00:32:16,400
objectives, let's say, how you how you deal with that,
you know, you personally or you as an organization.

387
00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:19,033
Yeah, it's something we think about when we talk about.

388
00:32:19,033 --> 00:32:25,033
And someone can come up with a phrase recently, 
and they were in our recording, somebody else

389
00:32:25,266 --> 00:32:31,566
saying that that's after renewables
is where the climate crisis meets the biodiversity crisis.

390
00:32:32,666 --> 00:32:38,266
And I heard that and I was like,
I have no idea why there was an existence of it's true.

391
00:32:38,266 --> 00:32:41,700
I'm going to talk about it
a bit more afterwards. And I went, yes, it is true.

392
00:32:41,700 --> 00:32:44,133
There is an intersection there.

393
00:32:44,133 --> 00:32:51,900
But let's not get the wrong idea that it's a zero sum game,
that it's one or the other, you know, and I think it's very important

394
00:32:51,900 --> 00:33:01,700
not to overstate the pressure is on when the biodiversity from the build
out of offshore wind is, is also very important not to understate.

395
00:33:02,300 --> 00:33:06,700
We need to bring a knowledge based scientific approach to this.

396
00:33:06,700 --> 00:33:15,766
We need to always be looking to the published literature,
to what work has been done in other jurisdictions, other approaches,

397
00:33:16,666 --> 00:33:24,400
and do the very best we can, because in the end of the day
that we're going to build those wind farms because we have to.

398
00:33:25,166 --> 00:33:29,900
And there was huge energy and impetus that came from,
you know, the Greens in the last government.

399
00:33:29,900 --> 00:33:33,166
They did massive work in the rain is going to be missed.

400
00:33:33,166 --> 00:33:38,700
You know, there was those huge energy brought to us and momentum,

401
00:33:38,700 --> 00:33:45,733
and I, I, you know, these are big projects
and it will roll all that momentum will continue.

402
00:33:46,066 --> 00:33:49,566
But, you know,
I think we can give and and run a great deal of credit for us.

403
00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:56,100
And for the, for what he brought to the Department of Environment
and the work that those guys do.

404
00:33:56,100 --> 00:33:59,066
So the intersection between

405
00:33:59,066 --> 00:34:01,800
biodiversity and climate,

406
00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:03,600
not a zero sum game.

407
00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:09,066
And we have to be both cautious but pragmatic.

408
00:34:09,066 --> 00:34:16,300
And, you know, you say about how do you individually reconcile us, or
how do it how do we do it as an organized organization,

409
00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:19,000
it's all about information.

410
00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:22,633
It's about understanding, and it's about science.

411
00:34:22,633 --> 00:34:30,300
You know, we we it's all about both the science, the data
and the interpretation of that correct interpretation of that.

412
00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:36,400
And and doing the best we can and in terms of personally,
I was talking about this recently

413
00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:47,500
when I broaden my view to a global view, you know, climates,
you know, we're hearing these terrible, predictions now.

414
00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:50,166
It's wooly days and all the scientists admit that.

415
00:34:50,166 --> 00:34:56,700
But potential slow down or stopping of the, occurrence,
you know, the gold streamers.

416
00:34:56,700 --> 00:35:03,400
And so, you know, this is absolutely devastating,
not just to Ireland with all we'd have the same.

417
00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:08,566
We'd have the same climates as Newfoundland.
It would be a disaster. That's.

418
00:35:08,566 --> 00:35:10,300
Yeah, that would be a disaster. Of course.

419
00:35:10,300 --> 00:35:18,200
I mean, we're talking about radically changing every ecosystem on the
planet, like the the monsoons wouldn't come to India if that happened.

420
00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:20,333
There are all sorts of things.

421
00:35:20,333 --> 00:35:21,400
These are huge.

422
00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:28,333
So when I, when I spread my view out and I look at what we have done

423
00:35:28,333 --> 00:35:34,800
to the planet in a very short space of time,
and I look at the just brutal biodiversity, nuts

424
00:35:35,766 --> 00:35:40,566
and all these of this constant rise in temperature,
all these potential tipping points.

425
00:35:40,566 --> 00:35:46,366
Maybe we're already regional. And I look at that
and I go, this is a disaster.

426
00:35:46,366 --> 00:35:49,366
And it is looming mean faces.

427
00:35:49,366 --> 00:35:53,200
It is and this is extremely depressing.

428
00:35:53,200 --> 00:36:00,833
Does the oil and gas industry,
you know, continue to lobby, you know, even cop over in Baku,

429
00:36:01,300 --> 00:36:06,833
you know, that the dollar exacerbates their their intrinsic
they're well-funded, the well-organized, the very plausible.

430
00:36:06,833 --> 00:36:12,000
It's all about money short term.
And they, you know, they've got massive investment in this.

431
00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:15,666
And if they don't keep the thing going,
they fall off a cliff financially.

432
00:36:15,666 --> 00:36:22,566
They're they are remarkably slow to move into renewables,
with some exceptions, considering that they have.

433
00:36:22,933 --> 00:36:30,400
So they're so rich and they have so much technological expertise
clearly in the marine in a way that's upsetting and depressing.

434
00:36:31,300 --> 00:36:35,666
That that continues.
And they have the ear of governments of all around the world.

435
00:36:35,666 --> 00:36:45,900
So we know that that is so then I guess upset, depressed because
it's upsetting and, and and then I tend to narrow my focus in again

436
00:36:46,933 --> 00:36:51,100
and I go, well, what are we doing here?

437
00:36:51,100 --> 00:36:53,266
What are we going to do? What am I going to do?

438
00:36:53,266 --> 00:37:00,600
And I mean, the, I would say fortune position
because of my job to be perhaps able to make a difference directly.

439
00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:02,100
That's suggestive.

440
00:37:02,100 --> 00:37:09,100
I mean, I'm delighted with my job, you know, that,
you know, that I, that I'm in a position where I can make submissions,

441
00:37:09,100 --> 00:37:15,933
which I do to a more panel on the planet applications and go,
we must talk about noise abatement.

442
00:37:15,933 --> 00:37:20,100
We must build it into fuel. The approach to technology exists.

443
00:37:20,100 --> 00:37:23,366
The developer have to accept the expense and so on.

444
00:37:23,366 --> 00:37:26,100
And that's a very narrow focus.

445
00:37:26,100 --> 00:37:31,733
You know, people say, oh, you're doing a response
to environmental impact assessments from a phase one projects.

446
00:37:31,733 --> 00:37:34,766
These the assessments are huge to come out of Paris.

447
00:37:34,766 --> 00:37:39,300
You know, the prince is out that they're massive thousands
and thousands of villages.

448
00:37:39,300 --> 00:37:42,066
But I don't rig think so
how do you define the tone through the words? I don't,

449
00:37:43,166 --> 00:37:47,733
I just go boom, boom, boom, insta remember stuff
and then boom, boom, boom to the underwater noise.

450
00:37:47,733 --> 00:37:54,433
But and really, you know,
if you consider that it takes teams of consultants,

451
00:37:54,433 --> 00:38:02,366
I mean, a lot of people in a consultancy, usually in the UK,
it takes them years to produce this.

452
00:38:02,766 --> 00:38:07,600
And I suppose to reviewers and tables, I'm not good.
I just kind of hone in.

453
00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:13,533
But that narrow focus that, that,
that bringing your, your focus in from that very broad,

454
00:38:13,533 --> 00:38:19,533
oh God, this is very bad into a piece of work
that you can do is sort of what gets me through.

455
00:38:19,866 --> 00:38:25,866
And the feeling does we are in some way affected people listen to us.

456
00:38:26,066 --> 00:38:30,200
We have a good relationship with wind energy at a very good relationship
with wind out of that energy.

457
00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:37,333
And we did a webinar recently about underwater noise,
which was brought about by Wind Energy Ireland's

458
00:38:37,500 --> 00:38:45,666
to start this conversation, and they represent the developers,
and we're in an unfortunate position in Ireland at the moment.

459
00:38:46,433 --> 00:38:51,766
Whereas there's a
there's a guidance document produced by National Works,

460
00:38:51,766 --> 00:38:59,433
this last 1 in 2014,
which it's a guidance document for how to manage underwater noise.

461
00:39:00,200 --> 00:39:04,266
You know, they are
they are guidelines. It's not law but they are guidelines.

462
00:39:04,266 --> 00:39:10,366
And people coming in to seismic survey or high risk
survey are piling or blasting or, you know, removal.

463
00:39:11,100 --> 00:39:14,066
They refer to these guidelines and they make their plan.

464
00:39:14,066 --> 00:39:18,233
But unfortunately the guidelines are very out of date 2014.

465
00:39:18,233 --> 00:39:21,866
They don't do a piling in a in a very meaningful way.

466
00:39:21,866 --> 00:39:27,666
They mentioned noise abatement
and things have moved on in the ten years since they were published,

467
00:39:27,666 --> 00:39:30,633
you know, and, and also the types of surveys that they

468
00:39:31,633 --> 00:39:37,933
the guidance document was very much based around, 3D seismic surveys,
which are, which are oil and gas surveys.

469
00:39:37,933 --> 00:39:39,300
They're very loud.

470
00:39:39,300 --> 00:39:40,833
These these massive arrogance.

471
00:39:40,833 --> 00:39:45,900
That's how I started out in the industry, was mitigating for those. And,

472
00:39:45,900 --> 00:39:51,400
you know, all of the, the, the sort of thinking
the mindset is based around

473
00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:55,566
these are going for 3D seismic
and then that the sorts of similar stuff is applied.

474
00:39:55,566 --> 00:40:01,200
And we take the same approach
that's very out of date and everyone's aware of that.

475
00:40:01,200 --> 00:40:08,100
So, so the National Parks and Wildlife have,
committed to reviewing those guidelines

476
00:40:09,200 --> 00:40:14,866
and as far as I understand is what I've heard
is that that process will begin in quarter two of next year.

477
00:40:14,866 --> 00:40:19,500
No, you know, it wouldn't
it would have been great if it was done two years ago

478
00:40:19,500 --> 00:40:24,533
and that the developers would
then have had the certainty of, of a proper framework

479
00:40:25,566 --> 00:40:28,300
in which to make their applications.

480
00:40:28,300 --> 00:40:32,966
So they've found themselves in a, in a, in a sort of a guidance vacuum.

481
00:40:32,966 --> 00:40:38,600
So they've been plucking stuff willy nilly from other jurisdictions,
mostly UK jurisdictions.

482
00:40:38,600 --> 00:40:44,933
And I suppose that's also not surprising because the consultancies
are from the UK and that's the system they're familiar with.

483
00:40:45,166 --> 00:40:47,733
And also I want to state this for the records.

484
00:40:47,733 --> 00:40:54,666
They they apply UK guidance
thinking and methodology to these applications.

485
00:40:55,300 --> 00:40:57,433
Is is the cheapest.

486
00:40:57,433 --> 00:40:59,600
It is the least precautionary.

487
00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:01,800
It does not include noise abatement.

488
00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:05,533
Oh so you can see where they come from.

489
00:41:05,533 --> 00:41:06,633
You would have some sympathy.

490
00:41:06,633 --> 00:41:11,900
You can see there's a sort of a small opening to save 50 million.

491
00:41:11,900 --> 00:41:14,466
70 million per project.

492
00:41:14,466 --> 00:41:17,900
You know, it's a lot of money. You can see why they'd want to save us.

493
00:41:17,900 --> 00:41:22,833
I mean, I imagine
their shareholders are somewhat on the saving this poor project.

494
00:41:22,833 --> 00:41:25,900
So there's a lot at stake here.

495
00:41:25,900 --> 00:41:34,900
But at the same time, the overwhelming evidence is coming,
you know, and you cannot pile in the North Sea.

496
00:41:36,066 --> 00:41:38,966
In the a Dutch sector by sector.

497
00:41:38,966 --> 00:41:41,533
The German sector.

498
00:41:41,533 --> 00:41:47,100
Without applying noise abatement,
there are strict limits on how much noise you can make.

499
00:41:47,100 --> 00:41:55,166
There's a hydrophone in the water at 750 meter from your event,
and listening in real time

500
00:41:55,666 --> 00:42:05,966
and integrating the noise it comes, and measuring this and comparing it
to a number of other parameters for colors of noise and and peak noise.

501
00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:09,966
But most importantly, I think for cumulative noise.

502
00:42:09,966 --> 00:42:14,633
And there are hard limits. And if you hit those limits, you start

503
00:42:14,633 --> 00:42:20,300
intense directed accuracy mitigation.

504
00:42:20,300 --> 00:42:26,033
And I worked in the German auto and I can tell you there's

505
00:42:26,033 --> 00:42:32,600
considerable tension in the room where you're sitting
in front of the computer screens watching the cumulative noise go up.

506
00:42:33,533 --> 00:42:35,500
Just go hug it up.

507
00:42:35,500 --> 00:42:40,200
I don't I don't know that particular operation.
I don't know how what it cost per day.

508
00:42:40,200 --> 00:42:42,433
Certainly more than half of

509
00:42:43,600 --> 00:42:44,400
I could.

510
00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:47,366
Yeah. Could have been €1 million a day sort of operation.

511
00:42:47,366 --> 00:42:50,333
Any delay is just bonkers.

512
00:42:50,333 --> 00:42:55,900
So there's a lot at stake, but it can be done.

513
00:42:55,900 --> 00:43:01,433
And what we need now is the National Parks wildlife to look at this,

514
00:43:01,433 --> 00:43:06,133
to open the books on us.
If you'd like to. And and we will be involved in that process.

515
00:43:06,133 --> 00:43:11,066
We will be making submissions
and perhaps will be a working group put together. I sincerely hope so.

516
00:43:11,066 --> 00:43:12,300
When did a to be evolved?

517
00:43:12,300 --> 00:43:15,333
The developers would be, as are academics would be involved.

518
00:43:15,333 --> 00:43:18,400
Underwater acoustics is really complex.

519
00:43:18,400 --> 00:43:21,533
It's physics. I'm not a physics physicist.

520
00:43:21,533 --> 00:43:26,800
Kind of is is not a physicist. I'm not an acoustician.
I read about this stuff.

521
00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:31,733
I understand the broad concepts,
but when you actually get down to us, it's very complex.

522
00:43:31,733 --> 00:43:35,366
So there's a very important role for academia in that.

523
00:43:35,366 --> 00:43:37,200
And and again, it's evidence based.

524
00:43:37,200 --> 00:43:39,533
We're looking at the actual science.

525
00:43:39,533 --> 00:43:43,400
We're looking at receive levels for animals.

526
00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:47,966
What that means is is is it importance our isn't it.

527
00:43:47,966 --> 00:43:53,033
You know, we need to to make realistic assessments.
There's some criticism of the German system.

528
00:43:53,033 --> 00:43:54,133
It's too simplistic.

529
00:43:54,133 --> 00:44:05,600
It's as is implies a step change conceptually, which says
any mammal presents that receives X noise level will suffer ex injury.

530
00:44:05,966 --> 00:44:15,400
And any animal outside that will knows clearly
that's a massive simplification of the natural world is step.

531
00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:23,766
So there's move towards those response curves
and an understanding that not all animals will respond in the same way.

532
00:44:24,433 --> 00:44:27,933
And some of that comes from industry.

533
00:44:27,933 --> 00:44:34,066
And for those of you who are interested in reducing conservatism,
essentially

534
00:44:34,666 --> 00:44:40,933
in these assessments, to say it's not actually that that, you know,
and maybe there's some truth in that,

535
00:44:41,200 --> 00:44:47,300
but when you use a dose response model rather than a step change model,
what you find is

536
00:44:47,633 --> 00:44:53,800
there are a great more animals in the far fields
that are subject to disturbance,

537
00:44:54,766 --> 00:44:58,033
than perhaps had been originally assessed.

538
00:44:58,033 --> 00:45:05,066
So and then if we circle back to the harbor porpoises
and our increasing understanding of their vulnerability to disturbance.

539
00:45:07,500 --> 00:45:07,866
You know.

540
00:45:07,866 --> 00:45:09,433
So, yeah.

541
00:45:09,433 --> 00:45:13,966
So I think I think it becomes insupportable
that you would not use noise abatement.

542
00:45:13,966 --> 00:45:21,433
And just finally, perhaps on the noise web based, 
the UK is now looking at noise abatement there.

543
00:45:21,466 --> 00:45:24,466
They eventually they became an outlier.

544
00:45:24,466 --> 00:45:30,300
They were the they were the only jurisdiction
that didn't always apply it or didn't ever applies.

545
00:45:30,300 --> 00:45:32,300
So and they've built a lot of wind farms.

546
00:45:32,300 --> 00:45:36,033
They built a lot of wind farms
that are safe and sound travels as we know.

547
00:45:36,033 --> 00:45:40,500
But they are now looking at it seriously.

548
00:45:40,500 --> 00:45:42,633
It's starting to appear in documents.

549
00:45:43,633 --> 00:45:44,300
And I heard

550
00:45:44,300 --> 00:45:50,300
I've heard that that they're they're going to start insisting on it
for new applications.

551
00:45:50,800 --> 00:45:51,833
We wait and see.

552
00:45:51,833 --> 00:45:56,833
But really let's are the not then become the outlier.

553
00:45:56,833 --> 00:45:59,266
Yeah. Well that's a that's that's the point.

554
00:45:59,266 --> 00:46:02,900
That's the point Stephen, you mentioned response of the animals.

555
00:46:02,900 --> 00:46:09,933
And so I want to, switch gears a little bit and say like once those, 
structures are already built right?

556
00:46:09,933 --> 00:46:11,300
We, we passed the build phase.

557
00:46:11,300 --> 00:46:15,466
Once they're built, how do they respond and adapt to them?

558
00:46:15,466 --> 00:46:17,666
The the structures being there?

559
00:46:17,666 --> 00:46:25,133
It's hard to say because, you know, then you start to come down
to to the, to the, to the species that we have in Ireland.

560
00:46:25,133 --> 00:46:28,200
I mean, it's not entirely unique and it is comparable with other places.

561
00:46:28,200 --> 00:46:34,800
But, you know, we have more baleen whales, perhaps,
than they have been on the UK side over in the North Sea.

562
00:46:34,800 --> 00:46:43,233
They've porpoises and not much else,
you know, whereas here we've got 26 species of, of cetaceans recorders.

563
00:46:43,500 --> 00:46:48,366
Now a lot of those are deepwater species.
They're not animals you're going to find in the Irish Sea.

564
00:46:48,366 --> 00:46:57,133
So I think there are a number of different elements
to how a dolphin or a whale or poor boys that swimming around

565
00:46:57,166 --> 00:46:59,833
our sea will respond to these structures

566
00:47:00,833 --> 00:47:03,500
from the noise so that they continue to make a noise.

567
00:47:03,500 --> 00:47:09,266
I mean, as they generate electricity, you know,
there are a lot of moving parts, their care boxes and so on.

568
00:47:09,266 --> 00:47:11,866
And there is a low level noise.

569
00:47:11,866 --> 00:47:16,900
It's a low frequency, constant noise.
And it gets noisier as it gets windier.

570
00:47:16,900 --> 00:47:22,900
Saint Joseph but at the same time, the sea gets noisier as it gets
when you so does that.

571
00:47:22,933 --> 00:47:30,600
So we're not worried are concerned about the operational noise
for fixed bottom turbines.

572
00:47:31,166 --> 00:47:33,700
You know it's not a concern for the wildlife.

573
00:47:33,700 --> 00:47:40,633
If some if some if it's very windy and the thing is very noisy,
it is a there's no it's it's it's continuous noise.

574
00:47:40,633 --> 00:47:44,400
It's not impulsive noise. And that's important to both of noise.

575
00:47:44,400 --> 00:47:46,833
You know yourself you know. Yes isn't working.

576
00:47:46,833 --> 00:47:50,066
And some hilarious person comes up behind you and the

577
00:47:51,066 --> 00:47:53,966
you know, there's a startle response.

578
00:47:53,966 --> 00:47:59,333
And also that high rise
type is more likely to damage your hearing than a continuous noise.

579
00:47:59,333 --> 00:48:03,466
So I suppose you give
the animals have more agency with a continuous noise.

580
00:48:03,466 --> 00:48:08,466
There's bit along the border. Let's of them.
Perhaps they could swim off somewhere else, somewhere else.

581
00:48:08,466 --> 00:48:13,233
But there are, of course other effects to having structures in the sea.

582
00:48:13,233 --> 00:48:18,600
So if you take the Irish Sea, you know it's in an area
that's that's flat. It's

583
00:48:18,600 --> 00:48:21,300
been very heavily fished for generations.

584
00:48:21,300 --> 00:48:25,800
It's it's flat. It doesn't have any three dimensional structures

585
00:48:25,800 --> 00:48:27,866
and it doesn't have a lot of growth on it.

586
00:48:27,866 --> 00:48:30,766
And then you put a big steel tube into us.

587
00:48:30,766 --> 00:48:36,433
All these organisms settle down and start to grow
your muscles would be a good example.

588
00:48:36,433 --> 00:48:38,100
Sponges also.

589
00:48:38,100 --> 00:48:45,400
So it kicks off a little ecosystem,
a unique ecosystem on this three dimensional structure.

590
00:48:45,633 --> 00:48:51,300
And you know, this is stuff that's well understood throughout the gas
industry. They've had subsea structures for generations.

591
00:48:51,300 --> 00:48:56,900
So there is this argument, you know, on the surface of that okay.

592
00:48:56,900 --> 00:48:58,066
You say, well, listen, tastic.

593
00:48:58,066 --> 00:49:04,500
You know, we've got a new surface for, for marine creatures
to grow and thrive and, and people correctly make the point.

594
00:49:04,500 --> 00:49:09,633
Yeah,
but they're not the same creatures that would be there on muddy grounds.

595
00:49:09,633 --> 00:49:13,500
You know, they're new worlds. No, they're not as it
they're not invasive species.

596
00:49:13,500 --> 00:49:15,933
But there is a there is potential to that.

597
00:49:15,933 --> 00:49:20,400
But you know, but they're not the ones that would naturally be there.

598
00:49:20,400 --> 00:49:25,433
My answer to that, it's a not a natural environment out there.

599
00:49:25,433 --> 00:49:34,566
We have been modifying us, you know, heavily since man, first
through a line in off the shore and realized we could catch a fish,

600
00:49:35,700 --> 00:49:41,400
you know, so it's either those are knocked
a knocked a winkle off the rock and that we have been modified.

601
00:49:41,400 --> 00:49:46,766
There isn't a it's an exaggeration to say
they're in the square inch of the planet that hasn't been modified.

602
00:49:46,766 --> 00:49:51,133
But you know what I'm saying?
Yeah. Yeah, it's heavily muddy. It's like.

603
00:49:51,133 --> 00:49:54,666
Anyway, it's like, like these, these novel ecosystems.

604
00:49:54,666 --> 00:49:59,333
I think it was, episode two 184,
and we were talking about the novel ecosystems.

605
00:49:59,333 --> 00:50:03,700
It's kind of like a in that vein, something new is is appearing there.

606
00:50:03,700 --> 00:50:10,700
And I heard, on one of the conferences
that the Seals tend to be finding good feeding grounds

607
00:50:11,100 --> 00:50:18,333
between those, those structures, because the naturally fish tends
to congregate around underwater structures.

608
00:50:18,333 --> 00:50:29,366
As I'm sure every angler listening to this podcast know, and and so and so seals tends to be tends to aggregate more around them as well. So

609
00:50:30,433 --> 00:50:31,500
this is

610
00:50:31,500 --> 00:50:38,966
tell me like is there a role for citizen science
or citizen scientists to be engaged in in this sort of

611
00:50:39,266 --> 00:50:50,333
in monitoring marine mammal wildlife around those farms or in, you know,
any way of influencing the decisions, like you said, for example, to,

612
00:50:50,400 --> 00:50:57,500
use the noise mitigation practices,
anything like so in other words, you know, you

613
00:50:57,533 --> 00:51:02,133
you mentioned that when you know how you deal with that
and what I'm taking very naturally from that

614
00:51:02,133 --> 00:51:10,333
is that you have a sense of agency over what's going
on, and sense of agency always helps to deal with whatever that is.

615
00:51:10,866 --> 00:51:13,466
So that's my question about the citizen science.

616
00:51:13,466 --> 00:51:21,900
Is there any agency that that citizens
who are concerned, can have and what they can do?

617
00:51:22,833 --> 00:51:24,666
Well, I mean, yes.

618
00:51:24,666 --> 00:51:25,866
Gets was yes.

619
00:51:25,866 --> 00:51:30,100
Join an NGO, get involved.

620
00:51:30,100 --> 00:51:33,933
It's an elbow to elbow thing for me to say,

621
00:51:33,933 --> 00:51:38,100
there's Irish whales and dolphins
where you could, you could pick there as well in dolphin group

622
00:51:38,100 --> 00:51:44,500
as a, as a representative NGO in the marine in the marine space there
until you get a description link in the description.

623
00:51:44,500 --> 00:51:45,966
So yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

624
00:51:45,966 --> 00:51:53,533
And you know that that the main, the main NGOs in the marine sector,
the wildlife group Birdwatch, Irish Wildlife Trust and so on,

625
00:51:54,233 --> 00:51:56,100
and so and coastal with me.

626
00:51:56,100 --> 00:52:02,433
Sorry, can't you know, and we all do what we do.

627
00:52:03,000 --> 00:52:09,300
The asshole dolphin group is a primary data holder,
and a great deal of that data comes from citizen science.

628
00:52:10,066 --> 00:52:14,333
It has power. Data has power information.

629
00:52:14,333 --> 00:52:17,366
Every game is a game of information.

630
00:52:17,366 --> 00:52:22,100
If you have information, what can you say? If you have no information,
what can you say? You can't say anything.

631
00:52:22,100 --> 00:52:24,733
What's your. It's talking about your emotions and your opinions.

632
00:52:24,733 --> 00:52:28,500
But your opinions are based on that thing.
So it's all about information.

633
00:52:28,500 --> 00:52:34,400
So there's one of the best as maintained as sightings database
back to 2005.

634
00:52:34,400 --> 00:52:36,133
It's robust.

635
00:52:36,133 --> 00:52:37,866
It's good data.

636
00:52:37,866 --> 00:52:40,433
It's validated data.

637
00:52:40,433 --> 00:52:41,600
You know, you rig up.

638
00:52:41,600 --> 00:52:45,566
Well the other groups that I saw, I'm sure it's, it's a pilot. What?

639
00:52:45,566 --> 00:52:48,200
It's all boats with you know, and then hang up.

640
00:52:48,200 --> 00:52:53,100
We don't go. Oh, yeah,
this guy is also pilot. Well, and that goes in as a pilot. Well, record.

641
00:52:53,100 --> 00:52:58,800
No, you will be quizzed and we'll get to the bottom
of whether it was a pilot, whether or not I just,

642
00:52:58,800 --> 00:53:05,066
I just say that like, recorded an episode with the, with a gentleman
who used to work as a forest ranger in the UK

643
00:53:05,400 --> 00:53:10,166
and he was talking about the recorders,
like people were sending records.

644
00:53:10,166 --> 00:53:15,933
What did they see in the, in the forest and the monk are other,
you know, lions, panthers, the usual stuff.

645
00:53:15,933 --> 00:53:20,333
There was a Jabberwocky also. And he's like, yeah.

646
00:53:20,333 --> 00:53:25,800
And that that is the record that we have that someone saw
and they even drew a picture there.

647
00:53:25,800 --> 00:53:28,533
So you you don't do that.

648
00:53:28,533 --> 00:53:33,433
Hey, can you tell me exactly about this sea monster
that just the Kraken?

649
00:53:33,433 --> 00:53:34,633
We saw the cracker. I think,

650
00:53:36,733 --> 00:53:40,466
so Burke really manages the the sightings and the sighting.

651
00:53:40,466 --> 00:53:45,366
Based on all that validation,
I think you've had Burke on this show. Yes.

652
00:53:45,366 --> 00:53:48,100
Or if it's very, very effective.

653
00:53:48,100 --> 00:53:53,166
And he we. Those are, if necessary, downgrades.

654
00:53:53,166 --> 00:53:55,700
You know, you might go from. Oh, it was definitely winky whales.

655
00:53:55,700 --> 00:54:01,700
We just gotta put it in as well species
because we're not sure now that of course biases,

656
00:54:02,466 --> 00:54:05,100
biases the data sets if you like to.

657
00:54:05,100 --> 00:54:09,566
It perhaps shrinks it to some extent,
but it is important that the data is accurate.

658
00:54:09,566 --> 00:54:11,666
Otherwise what's it for?

659
00:54:11,666 --> 00:54:15,800
But then again, when you
then when you step outside that and say, well, what is it for?

660
00:54:15,800 --> 00:54:22,233
It's a record of the presence of an animal
or a group of animals in a place on a day.

661
00:54:22,966 --> 00:54:30,900
But if you extend that out to the Irish esthetics,
which is huge, you know, you cannot generate a density estimates

662
00:54:31,533 --> 00:54:38,100
for the for anywhere on the basis of data
that was collected without recorded effort.

663
00:54:38,966 --> 00:54:46,500
So if you stand on a headland or you're in an aircraft
or you're in a boat and you are,

664
00:54:47,433 --> 00:54:51,066
recording whether dolphins license

665
00:54:51,066 --> 00:54:56,966
you do that as part of a very carefully designed process

666
00:54:56,966 --> 00:55:05,366
that will result in strong statistics and a measure of uncertainty
so that you can generate this density estimates,

667
00:55:06,166 --> 00:55:12,066
you know, these distant samples, there's all these very statistical
big bring to bear, but it's all based on your efforts.

668
00:55:12,066 --> 00:55:14,933
So what's your what was recorded is your effort.

669
00:55:14,933 --> 00:55:17,800
You were in a boat. You were traveling at 12 knots.
You were an aircraft.

670
00:55:17,800 --> 00:55:21,133
You're traveling at all hundred and 50 yards. You were

671
00:55:21,133 --> 00:55:22,700
you were an hour on a headland.

672
00:55:22,700 --> 00:55:24,133
You were two hours ahead.

673
00:55:24,133 --> 00:55:28,500
So in so you you're you're at the units of time,

674
00:55:28,500 --> 00:55:34,500
becomes two units of effort
and then you look at the area and you can generate statistics from that.

675
00:55:34,800 --> 00:55:39,700
So citizen science is very important but it is presence only.

676
00:55:39,700 --> 00:55:43,200
Data is still presence absence there.

677
00:55:43,200 --> 00:55:45,833
You can't say there was no well there the day before.

678
00:55:45,833 --> 00:55:48,233
No no you weren't there the day before.

679
00:55:48,233 --> 00:55:53,266
So so it's very that's very important to draw the distinction.

680
00:55:53,266 --> 00:55:58,566
But it must be said it still has considerable power because it has.

681
00:55:58,566 --> 00:55:59,633
Nobody else has. Is

682
00:56:01,066 --> 00:56:05,433
you know, we have a record for an animal there on that day.

683
00:56:05,433 --> 00:56:08,900
If we didn't have that records, nobody would know.

684
00:56:08,900 --> 00:56:16,266
So then when you map and then we, we look at thousands
and thousands of records and you map them and you go, oh rock.

685
00:56:16,866 --> 00:56:25,500
Well, obviously you're going to have clusters where you've got clusters
of volunteers and citizen scientists putting in, putting it in there.

686
00:56:25,500 --> 00:56:30,733
All you can do is you can deal statistically with that as well.
You can. It's complex.

687
00:56:30,733 --> 00:56:33,100
Use this thing called ensemble modeling.

688
00:56:33,100 --> 00:56:37,300
There's a there's a tendency to use words like tools.

689
00:56:37,300 --> 00:56:43,866
This wonderful group, Miguel just finishing up his PhD, you know,
and he use really good modeling techniques.

690
00:56:43,866 --> 00:56:48,533
So he took the database specifically robust.
And then he did habitat modeling.

691
00:56:48,533 --> 00:56:54,200
And he was able to make inference from
it is really impressive that you can do it

692
00:56:54,200 --> 00:56:58,500
because there's sort of an old fashioned notion that, oh, it's there's
no I from the sources.

693
00:56:58,500 --> 00:57:03,900
We can't do anything with it.
Turns out you can't. And statistics are more and more sophisticated.

694
00:57:03,900 --> 00:57:10,100
Modeling is more sophisticated then they can
you can tease the information out because the information is in there.

695
00:57:10,966 --> 00:57:11,966
But it's just a cheese.

696
00:57:11,966 --> 00:57:15,933
Cheese rolls in a way that you can present. And it's plausible
and you can send over it.

697
00:57:15,933 --> 00:57:18,266
So we well did that.

698
00:57:18,266 --> 00:57:21,833
So it has power that's there as well.

699
00:57:21,833 --> 00:57:27,433
Dorf group, which for the science, we also operate a stranding scheme.

700
00:57:27,433 --> 00:57:33,433
So we've got a data set of, of both live and dead
stranded animals or rock culture.

701
00:57:33,733 --> 00:57:37,233
That's also important. Back to the pork was is in the Irish Sea.

702
00:57:37,233 --> 00:57:40,466
The trend is. Oh, okay. Good. That's good news. The trend is up.

703
00:57:40,466 --> 00:57:45,966
You know there there are more the you know there are more dead
pork was is on the beach over time.

704
00:57:45,966 --> 00:57:49,966
It's it's you know, it's hard data. It's there we have it.

705
00:57:51,000 --> 00:57:53,233
So that's a good news.

706
00:57:53,233 --> 00:57:54,533
This is a good point of view.

707
00:57:54,533 --> 00:57:59,933
It's it's good news. We have a good news, folks. More purposes.

708
00:57:59,933 --> 00:58:03,166
You heard us here.

709
00:58:03,166 --> 00:58:05,600
Yeah, yeah. So.

710
00:58:05,600 --> 00:58:10,000
But it shows the power of the data, and it's citizen science.

711
00:58:10,000 --> 00:58:10,633
Summary.

712
00:58:10,633 --> 00:58:16,800
An Irish well driving group member, Arnott is walking on the beach
with their dog or driving on a road, and they look out the goal.

713
00:58:16,800 --> 00:58:22,200
What's that? And they go over and have a look at that.
Well, it's a day. It's dolphin. I don't know what it is.

714
00:58:22,200 --> 00:58:28,733
What do you do when you find a dead dolphin and then,
you know, maybe make a call and they end up talking to

715
00:58:28,766 --> 00:58:35,166
to surf for somebody at the office, the strandings officer
there have to take a photograph to send it in suddenly.

716
00:58:35,300 --> 00:58:36,233
Got that?

717
00:58:36,233 --> 00:58:39,966
I actually that's a good point to mention.
Like I actually made a video a couple of years ago.

718
00:58:39,966 --> 00:58:43,333
Now it might be, you know, like the
the website might change, might have changed.

719
00:58:43,333 --> 00:58:49,433
But I made a video, 
which is on my YouTube channel, how to record a stranding on, on

720
00:58:49,433 --> 00:58:55,766
on your website and, you know, and I don't donate as an example
because I found the, dolphin.

721
00:58:56,200 --> 00:58:58,566
And so they get okay, so, folks, this is what you do.

722
00:58:58,566 --> 00:59:03,133
So anyone who is interested, you can go to my, my YouTube channel.

723
00:59:03,133 --> 00:59:04,966
That video is there.

724
00:59:04,966 --> 00:59:10,333
And yeah, I just recorded stranding.
And you don't have to be a member of Irish Diving.

725
00:59:10,333 --> 00:59:15,300
Does anyone? There's no one. There's no no, no, it's
there's an app. Like I said, that video is a couple of years old.

726
00:59:15,300 --> 00:59:19,266
So probably things changes are even easier than they used to be.

727
00:59:19,266 --> 00:59:25,266
Steven,
if you could implement one policy change tomorrow for better protecting,

728
00:59:25,566 --> 00:59:32,233
marine mammals, marine life around those offshore wind farms,
what other would be noise abatement

729
00:59:33,766 --> 00:59:36,466
sympathizers that you bring

730
00:59:36,466 --> 00:59:42,566
that you to find an acceptable level of noise,
and then you bring the technology to bear

731
00:59:43,566 --> 00:59:46,766
to table or the club or I about

732
00:59:46,766 --> 00:59:53,533
this is so it's not so it's not so that policy like you
said, it's it's we're still lagging and that's why we're not there yet.

733
00:59:53,533 --> 00:59:57,666
And I am confident there's momentum now, you know.

734
00:59:57,666 --> 01:00:01,333
And, and people are becoming more aware of it or whatever has a problem.

735
01:00:01,333 --> 01:00:05,000
There are also they are aware of the solutions to the

736
01:00:05,000 --> 01:00:11,100
you know and we we try to maintain our portfolio
with the, with Google departments, which is some work with tech,

737
01:00:11,100 --> 01:00:17,100
which is work very practical as we try and keep those channels open
and to to keep the message coming.

738
01:00:17,433 --> 01:00:20,000
And over time I'm built.

739
01:00:20,000 --> 01:00:21,333
Expertise is an exaggeration.

740
01:00:21,333 --> 01:00:24,200
I did say I'm neither a physicist nor an acoustician,

741
01:00:24,200 --> 01:00:31,600
but my understanding of of the old world noise based
and the science behind us is improving over time.

742
01:00:31,833 --> 01:00:41,033
My ability to perhaps, to to both directly lobby because we're an NGO
and we do lobby, but we're lobbying based on science.

743
01:00:41,633 --> 01:00:43,933
We're not lobbying based on emotion.

744
01:00:43,933 --> 01:00:50,166
Our opinion, it's sides, folks,
if you enjoying this episode, remember to subscribe to my newsletter.

745
01:00:50,166 --> 01:00:53,633
The link is also in the description of the show,
along with the other links.

746
01:00:53,633 --> 01:00:59,533
Go in there and you will get much more content,
not only notification is about the new episodes of the podcast.

747
01:00:59,533 --> 01:01:10,566
Stephen, to wrap this up, if you look at your into your crystal ball,
how do you see the future of oceans of seas and what role in this,

748
01:01:10,666 --> 01:01:19,466
the offshore wind and renewables are playing that the seas are there
under pressure, you know, along with the rest of the planet.

749
01:01:19,466 --> 01:01:20,866
The seas are under pressure, and perhaps

750
01:01:21,933 --> 01:01:25,966
it's under pressure in ways that are more difficult to predict.

751
01:01:25,966 --> 01:01:31,133
Tipping points perhaps will have more profound effects as well.

752
01:01:31,133 --> 01:01:36,500
There is a a new focus to the marine, particularly in Ireland.

753
01:01:36,500 --> 01:01:42,800
I was at a ministry, a conference on ocean knowledge 2030
just yesterday and the day before, and I guess noble.

754
01:01:43,200 --> 01:01:46,100
And there is this not renewed.

755
01:01:46,100 --> 01:01:49,200
It's a new focus on the sea.

756
01:01:49,200 --> 01:01:54,000
And a lot of this is coming from

757
01:01:54,000 --> 01:01:56,700
the necessity to build offshore wind drones.

758
01:01:56,700 --> 01:02:01,733
You know, suddenly we have to look at this.
We have to engage with this in a way we didn't have to before.

759
01:02:01,733 --> 01:02:05,233
It was sort of abstract, with the exception of the fisheries.

760
01:02:05,233 --> 01:02:13,500
So, you know that that that was a very live thing, a live issue managed
by a common Fisheries Policy ministry for involved in that.

761
01:02:13,866 --> 01:02:16,100
Various agencies.

762
01:02:16,100 --> 01:02:18,733
But but but only for a week.

763
01:02:18,733 --> 01:02:24,766
But now we've got our very to examine,
think about to work out how we're going to do it,

764
01:02:25,033 --> 01:02:28,133
but also the interaction that we know already and everything else.

765
01:02:29,700 --> 01:02:30,333
Fisheries blue.

766
01:02:30,333 --> 01:02:31,100
The prime example.

767
01:02:31,100 --> 01:02:35,633
So suddenly everyone's attention is on this now.

768
01:02:35,633 --> 01:02:37,800
And that can only be good.

769
01:02:37,800 --> 01:02:43,800
You know, this this concept of sea blindness people talk about
in this country, we're an island nation, but we're sea blind.

770
01:02:44,600 --> 01:02:45,900
It's. So you're aware of this?

771
01:02:45,900 --> 01:02:46,266
Of course.

772
01:02:46,266 --> 01:02:54,433
Are, but things are changing because our focus is now
is is being pulled offshore because we've this work to do.

773
01:02:55,166 --> 01:02:57,333
So we need to catch up.

774
01:02:57,333 --> 01:03:03,333
We need to catch up in terms
of, of, students, you know, taking courses.

775
01:03:03,700 --> 01:03:06,233
You know, it's going to be a big industry.

776
01:03:06,233 --> 01:03:13,233
And, and not only the industrial side of it,
but also the ecology that underpins the planning decisions.

777
01:03:13,233 --> 01:03:20,000
All this is the this, you know, we're going to need young people
to move into that space to become experts.

778
01:03:20,266 --> 01:03:20,833
It's very important.

779
01:03:20,833 --> 01:03:21,633
So it starts there.

780
01:03:21,633 --> 01:03:27,500
It starts in secondary schools, primary schools,
you know, getting kids interested in this stuff and it moves out or not.

781
01:03:27,500 --> 01:03:34,266
And then into the state agencies, the government departments, Covid
itself, awareness, awareness, words and more resources.

782
01:03:34,266 --> 01:03:39,466
Doing blocks where you know, where,
where as I said at the beginning, we're starting from quite a low base.

783
01:03:40,500 --> 01:03:44,733
In terms of, of of that engagements with the marine, with exceptions.

784
01:03:44,733 --> 01:03:47,966
Quotes from George Lopez.

785
01:03:47,966 --> 01:03:50,000
But that's turning around now.

786
01:03:50,000 --> 01:03:54,066
And more resources are going in, more people are being employed.

787
01:03:54,066 --> 01:04:01,133
New agents, Mara, brand new agency involved license and and say,
you know, brand spanking new agency, very, very impressive.

788
01:04:01,866 --> 01:04:07,033
Impressive approach. Their approach,
the breadth of their and are doing is nice.

789
01:04:07,033 --> 01:04:07,566
You know what I mean?

790
01:04:07,566 --> 01:04:15,766
Does not an of the old foreshore
acts of the 30s slapped slapdash bits and pieces added on or a shrug.

791
01:04:15,766 --> 01:04:20,866
It's not my job. That's somebody else's job. Those days are over.

792
01:04:20,866 --> 01:04:25,300
We're taking it. Have taken it on head
on, though, in a way we never had before.

793
01:04:25,300 --> 01:04:29,433
So I would take us, I take a positive message from that.

794
01:04:29,433 --> 01:04:33,766
But the overarching messages, we're under pressure.

795
01:04:33,766 --> 01:04:35,200
We have a lot to do.

796
01:04:35,200 --> 01:04:37,333
We're starting very loose.

797
01:04:37,333 --> 01:04:41,466
Stephen, thank you so much. Appreciate your time.
Thank you very much. So lovely.

798
01:04:41,466 --> 01:04:49,900
Oh, it's, before you go, since you stick to the end of this show, then
first and foremost, thank you so much for listening and for watching.

799
01:04:50,166 --> 01:04:57,200
And if you enjoy what I do here, and I presume you do, since you're
listening to the very end, you should subscribe to my newsletter.

800
01:04:57,333 --> 01:05:01,400
The link is in the description of the show
newsletter dot Tommy souders.com.

801
01:05:01,400 --> 01:05:06,866
So getting there and you will get notifications
not only about the latest episodes of the podcast,

802
01:05:06,866 --> 01:05:11,733
but also about everything else
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