Hello and welcome to the September 23rd, 2022 edition of the TriDoc podcast. I'm your host, Jeff, Sankoff the TriDoc, an emergency physician, triathlon coach, and multiple Ironman finisher coming to you from beautiful, sunny Denver, Colorado. It's been a few weeks now since Mike Reilly announced his retirement effective at the end of this year. Mike has of course been the voice of Ironman since, well, pretty much since Ironman has been a thing. The response to his retirement announcement has been pretty much as expected; lots of remembrances, lots of well wishes and lots of gratitude for everything that he has done over his career. I don't have a whole lot to add to the sentiments that have been expressed on this subject thus far. I myself have competed in seven Ironman races to this point and Mike was at only three of them, Arizona in 2013 and both Boulder and Kona in 2018. He did call my name in Arizona, but not in Boulder or Kona. At the time I did Arizona, that was my third one. So him calling my name didn't really have the impact that I imagine it might have had if it had been on my first one. I did however, get a thrill out of him calling my name for my Kona slot in Boulder, back in 2018 at the award ceremony, but that's not really a big surprise. I think whoever had called my name that day probably would've given me an equally big thrill. I guess my point is that while Mike Reilly voice is clearly something that a lot of people have come to associate with these events it's not necessarily gonna be missed per se because it was never the thing that made finishing an Ironman the huge deal that it is. As one poster on Slowtwitch wrote in a thread on this subject and what can only be described as the most Slowtwitch post ever. Mike Reilly was a mediocre announcer. 'You are an iron man.' No kidding. Mike, not sure how I would've known that after spending all day completing the distance. If you didn't tell me." I thought that this was hilarious in its cynicism and clearly misses the point, but there is a kernel of truth in there. That besides the obviousness of the call, what Mike has always done is merely provide the exclamation point to what is really the accomplishment. Mike's exclamation was never really what it was all about. And that's why once he is retired, it's not like that accomplishment will be in any way diminished. Of course it won't. Truth be told, I actually think there are other voices who announce at these events who do a much better job than Mike does, but I completely understand the affection that people have for Reilly and why he's become the iron voice. It's more about history and emotion than anything else. So as we stand on the precipice of a new era, one without Reilly's signature intonations at the finish line of Ironman triathlons, I'm UN worried that he will be missed or somehow irreplaceable. No, I think it is more accurate to say that he will be fondly remembered as he should be and that newly minted Ironman finishers for years to come, will still be able to celebrate their accomplishment. No matter who's making that call. On the show today, I'm gonna revisit the CORE temperature sensor that I spoke about a few episodes ago. At that time, I reviewed all of the science that was listed on the CORE website, as well as what we could find to supplement that. But I was still really unable to make any definitive assessments as to the utility of the device, as it was kind of unclear to me how it was meant to be used, how the information that it provides could be useful and whether or not it actually provides any benefits to athletes who use it. As I told you then I reached out to the folks at core and they were good enough to get back to me. And I had a conversation with them that gave me a bit more insight. I also heard from some users of the CORE and so now hopefully I can give you all, some more advice and a better overview of how it should be used and whether or not this is a smart investment for your training in racing and that's coming up shortly. Later I am joined by the one and only Joe Wilson. You heard Joe on the program a few episodes ago when he graciously agreed to interview me about my story in this sport. How I went from newbie to middle of the pack to three time age group winner, just this year. Well, Joe is a pretty amazing guy in his own, right. And brings an exceptional amount of positive energy and enthusiasm to everyone he meets including me. So I'm really happy to have him as my guest today and give you all an opportunity to get a chance, to know a little bit more about him. Before I get to that. I wanna take a moment once again, to thank all of my Patreon supporters, including my newest subscriber, Brett Musco. Many others, Brett decided that for about the price of a cup of coffee per month, he could sign up to support this podcast. And in doing so get access to bonus interviews and other segments that come out every month. If you join Brett in subscribing and decide to do so at the $10 per month level of support, I also have a special thank you gift for you in the form of a pretty cool BOCO TriDoc podcast, running hat. So visit my Patreon site today and become a supporter so that you two can get access. And maybe this cool gift as well. The URL for more information and where you can sign up is patreon.com/tridocpodcast. And as always, thank you so much in advance just for considering. Back in episode 98, I reviewed the science behind the core, the temperature sensor device that you wear and that transmits data to any number of wearables or bike computers. When I reviewed the science on the core, I noted a few things first. That the website wasn't entirely clear on how the device should be used by athletes who wanted to make use of the technology. Yes, there was the inuation that the core could help athletes improve heat adaptation, and that disin turn would improve performance specifically in warmer environments. But. Exactly how this was to be done. Wasn't really obvious to me. Second, the science on the site and all of the supporting research that we could find dealt with various heat, acclamation protocols and heat stress in general. None of them actually looked at the core specifically. So there was no way for me to know if using the device was any better than not using it, at least in so far as under controlled experimental research conditions. Finally I opined at the time that while the core might be useful for training. I worried about how it could be used during an event. Would an athlete really be expected to slow down in order to allow themselves to cool. If that meant being passed or being unable to take the lead, even if they were feeling good at the time. In order to try to get answers to these and other questions. I reached out to the folks at core who were more than happy to chat with me. Not long ago, I spoke with Chris Blofeld brown, the product manager for core, and he and I spoke for quite a while and all things related to the device. The length of the conversation is indicative not so much that there was anything groundbreaking for me to learn, but rather because I remained really confused for much of that time. And I had to keep asking the same questions repeatedly in order to really understand that the technology and how it's best used. In the end. I think that I did get some valuable insights, but the interview it's entirety is simply not the best way to relate this to you. Instead, I'm gonna try and explain what I learned and play extracts from our conversation for clarification and additional details. Chris's first point about the core is that it is a way of getting feedback on a metric that we previously could not know body temperature. And the reason that this is important is because in his words, We need to be sure that we are simulating race conditions in training.

So the first thing that a lot of people aren't aware of, maybe after listening you, the more people are, is when you do exercise, your core temperature goes up when your core temperature goes up, your threshold power level comes. that's how it works, but you can train, you can, you can lose not as much, and that's what we help people do. That's the main thing that we do and then, for that's in training, and then we use a course sensor to quantify it. So like use a power meter. we're trying to, put the right amount of thermal load into a person. like a, like use a power meter to put the right physical strain on a muscle for adaptation. If you do too much thermal load, it can be counterproductive. And if you don't do enough thermal load, it's also, you're not getting the adaptation you want. So basically, we prescribe and what a lot of people are doing now is incorporating heat training. so basically, we, when we race, we race at an elevated temperature, but a lot of times we're training at a lower temperature. And the idea is you train occasionally at a higher temperature for the adapt. because if you never have your core temperature high and you do it in a race, your body's not gonna be as efficient. So with the idea is to prescribe enough thermal load to get the adaptations. And then once you have those adaptations enough thermal load to maintain those adaptations,

Okay, so far so good using the core allows you to ensure that you are able to get your body temperature up to the kinds of levels that you would see in a race so that you are training it to perform under the right condition. This makes sense to me, the problem is, and I pointed this out. There's no evidence anywhere that this is necessary. All of the heat adaptation protocols out there do not require you to know your body temperature in order to get benefit. Now here is when Chris made a distinction between heat adaptation and heat training. And I think that it's an important distinction. In his words.

I just wanna make a clarification There's uh, what we call heat app adaptation and heat training. We try to separate the two because heat adaptation is generally used when people think about I'm gonna be going to the Tokyo Olympics and I'm gonna do heat adaptation. Cuz when I get to I'm training in, uh, Sweden, and when I'm gonna go to Tokyo, the environment's gonna be completely different. So it's just adapting to the environment where we say heat training is basically when you're competing your core body, temperature's gonna go up and you're, we're gonna try to make your body more efficient, at operating those higher temperatures.

I think this is fine and obviously important. The only problem is that none of the science on the core website. None of it has anything to do with heat training. It all has to do with heat adaptation. And in fact, reading over the website, they seem to use the terms kind of interchangeably. So I'm sure that I'm not the only one who is continually confused by this. Still let's focus just on this concept of heat training and what it means. I tried to get a sense of how it's done and how it's supposed to work. Chris, wasn't totally clear on the details, but from what I could gather, heat training is done in small amounts generally on your lighter days. You determine your own personal heat threshold by doing a heat ramp test. This is a test where you basically map out your power production on a bike against your core temperature. As core temperature increases, eventually you're gonna reach a threshold at which point your power production just kind of falls off a cliff. I'm sure that you've all experienced something like this. I certainly know that I have. Well, according to Chris using the CORE to train 45 minutes at a time below this specific temperature threshold, but still above your baseline, somewhere in the range of 38.5 degrees was the number he gave Celsius, is not gonna change your threshold at which your power numbers will drop, but it will change according to him, the amount by which those power numbers are going to drop at that threshold. So let's say that before heat training, you do a ramp test. And once your body temperature hits 39.5 degrees Celsius. Your power output drops by 25%. According to the people at CORE doing their heat training protocols can get you to the point where when your body temperature reaches 39.5, your power's gonna drop off by 17% instead of 25%. Okay, that sounds great. Now, all I need is some proof. Unfortunately, Chris didn't have any. He had loads of anecdotes though, and lots of references that were unrelated to this specific claim. And I wanna emphasize, again, as I did in the program, when I first discussed this heat adaptation is intended to do very much the same thing as this heat training, but through different means. Heat adaptation allows for your body to make changes so that you are less likely to get to 39.5 degrees in the first place. And again, you don't need the core for that. And Chris was very quick to admit this. He doesn't deny that heat adaptation is a very valuable process to undertake. He does say that heat adaptation is temporary and does reverse if you don't keep going at it. And this is true. He says that by incorporating heat training into your program, you can actually. Keep the benefits of heat training longer than you can for heat adaptation. Again, it sounds great, but also again there's no proof. There's no science to back anything that he's saying up, I have to take him at his word. This then brought us to the subject of how the core could be used in racing. And here Chris gave me an explanation that both made a lot of sense. And finally helped me understand not only how this tool could be useful, but more importantly for whom and specifically. In what kind of circumstances

We can also look at, I'm talking road racing now. Not maybe triathlon at the moment. so say they've got a big climb coming up. 10 15 Ks before they're gonna be sending guys back, trying to cool down their, their GC riders trying to pre-cool before they get to those areas. Because if you can start that climb, uh, at 38 instead of 38.5 and your temperature's gonna go up 1.5 degrees, the guy is started lower. It's gonna have a little bit of advantage at the top. And so it's putting cooling strategies in based on feedback, based on data. Also looking at power drop off, looking at where they can do more cooling efforts, uh, how, how to do some kind of active, strategic cooling, uh, and also giving riders the biofeedback. Because a lot of times you're sitting in Peloton. You're not aware that your temperatures as high as it is. So it's the biofeedback, uh, like. 15 Ks before the rate decline. You're you're looking down, you say I'm all set that's okay. Or I'm a lot higher than I should be at this point in time. And so I've got some biofeedback that I can start trying to proactively do something.

Okay, this totally makes sense. Right? Your team Jumbo Visma, you know, that 10 to 15 kilometers up the road is the Col de Galibrier or some other massive climb on the tour de France and Vingegaard is. Set to make a big effort to try and take this climb and go for the yellow Jersey because Tadej Pogecar. Has been looking great the whole way. And Vingegaard knows that his body temperature is getting a little bit high, so he doesn't wanna push into 10 to 15 kilometers leading into the climb. So his team, knowing this information is now gonna make sure that they control the pace they control the tempo of the Peloton, so that Vingegaard can cool down to the point that when he reaches the base of the climb has body temperature has cooled in enough so that when he's start. He is in a better position to attack that climb. And so that when he gets to the top, his threshold temperature, Hasn't gotten to the point where his power numbers are gonna drop this. Intuitively. And now that it's been explained to me makes a lot of sense. But you can also hear Chris say. Not for triathlon right now because triathlon being an individual sport where you have to rely entirely on yourself. I mean, if you are heading to the climb to Hawi. And you are either in the lead or have a chance for the lead you're not gonna back off because your temperature is maybe reading a little bit higher, especially if you're feeling fine or if you have a chance to win. I, I think that it's pretty clear to me that this tool has some clear value for professional cycling, maybe even age group cycling in teams. But when it comes to triathlon, I'm not sure that I really see the case use for it just yet. now to be fair. Chris kept coming back over and over again to the concept that the core adds value to athletes who use it. By providing them with biofeedback. This idea that having the metric of their body temperature is giving them more information about themselves. More information about how their body is working, just like a power meter or a cadence sensor. And to that, I say, well, Again, it's very nice. It's, it's great to have metrics. But if you can't do anything about a metric or if a metric isn't providing really useful data, then do you really need to have it? And this particular metric comes at a cost. The core sensor costs. Over $225, 226 to be absolutely correct. that's just the sensor itself. You then have to buy. A, uh, band that you attach the sensor to. And it wasn't clear to me on the website, how long the sensor lasts for, because they actually sell the sensors in, bunches. So, it's not clear if like one center is good for life or if you have to buy one of these every six months or something, you also need to have some way of making sure that the sensor has good contact against your skin. They seem to be these adhesive patches that you're supposed to put on your skin and then attached to. Core sensor two, all of this was a little bit nebulous. Again, their website is not fantastic in terms of making all of these things totally clear. They do offer a really good community where you can interact with other athletes. And for me, I think that is where probably the details are likely to be sussed out. Now, most of the community is made up of cyclists. As I said, I don't see a lot of triathletes making use of this. And I wanted to get a sense from people who I actually have used this in the real world. To see if this was something that was bringing any value to them. So I asked. In the private Facebook group for the TRID podcast, whether or not anybody was using this. And I heard back from a couple of people. Both of whom said that they thought the device was interesting. It provided them with exactly what Chris said. Some biofeedback, it gave them their temperature, but they didn't really know what to do with that information. They didn't feel that it was adding anything to their training. Now I will say that neither of the athletes I spoke to, had a clear indication of doing the heat. Training, because again, I think the core is not doing a great job of educating people. I think they are working very well with the professionals. But when it comes to age groupers who are taking up this device, I think they leave a little bit to be desired in terms of. Getting information into the hands of those people as to how to really use this device. The last person I spoke to is Nathan Dorfman. Nathan is a top tier age grouper. really an elite athlete, almost a professional. And he's also a triathlon Australia performance coach. He has been using the core for quite a while now and had gotten it in anticipation of doing Kona back in 2020. But of course, that never came to Instead, he's been using it now in his preparation for Kona this year. And we spoke for some time. During which he related some of the pitfalls that he's noticed with the device first and foremost, it tends to have some connectivity issues and tends to drop out with his wearables. He's also noticed that the battery life isn't quite as good as he would hope it would be. But when it comes to actually using the device and getting some actionable metrics and data from it. He's a little more positive about it. He believes that it's been helping do his heat, acclimation training and preparation for racing in Kona, specifically, he's living in the Southern hemisphere. So they're just getting into spring. And as a result, the weather hasn't been quite as hot there. So doing his training has been difficult to know whether or not he's getting his body into a warm enough state to actually get a benefit in terms of being able to prepare himself for his race in Kona. By having the court on, he can see how much time he's spending with his body above a threshold temperature and watch as his performance in terms of heart rate and even power has improved over time with his body in that elevated temperature state. Now, whether or not he's actually seeing improvements in performance, he can't say because he's just been using the device this last month or so. And he's not sure whether or not this is going to translate to Heat acclimation or improved performance. Versus not having the device at all. The other thing he told me is that he has not really decided if he's going to respond to the data that he gets when racing. I propose to him that if he was running into the energy lab and was getting feedback from a spectator, that he was leading his age group by a minute and noticed that the core was giving him. A, warning that his body temperature was soon going to cross the threshold. Would he then follow that metric and slow down and take the time to cool himself knowing that he would likely not be in first place And his response to me was that, If he doesn't slow down, there is the likelihood that he's going to overcook. And instead of finishing in first or second, he might end up finishing. way out of the top 10, because he exceeds his heat threshold, runs into problem with being able to perform, to continue to take in calories. On the flip side of that, we all know that the people who take risks are the people who generally go on to win. If they're successful, if those risks. So he is unsure whether or not he's going to respond to that data when the chips are down. And that is something that is going to be determined. So. I think. At the end of the day, I'm not necessarily in any better of a place to be able to give you advice on whether or not this device is something that you should really be using and whether or not it can actually improve your performance. I think that the way that Nathan has used it and the way that others have explained it to me as being potentially useful is where you are training for an event in a warm environment and you yourself are not able to do training in a warm environment. Using the core can give you feedback that lets you know, that you are actually getting your body temperature up to a level where yes you are stressing yourself and therefore doing the work necessary to do heat acclimation as well as getting the heat training. Whether or not the heat training that the course suggests or the people at core suggests is beneficial and whether or not that translates into performance improvements. We just don't know, there's no data out there and all of it is anecdotal at this point. And I can't say for sure whether or not this is worth the 300 plus dollar investment that it's going to take in order to find out. Personally. I'm not ready, to make that plunge just yet. I think that I need to see a little bit more science or at least speak to some more people who have used this device. And definitively seen performance benefits that they can show, before I'm ready to say that. Yes, this is something I would use. So, what do you think, have you used this device? Have you seen performance benefits that you can really measure with metrics? Is this something that you're considering using and has this conversation swayed you one way or the other I'd love to hear from you? Because I got to say in all of the things that I have reviewed, this is one that I really don't feel like I have a great handle on, and I really don't feel like I can say one way or the other definitively. So I've given you all a lot of information. I've given you some anecdotes from people who have used it. And at the end of the I'm kind of going to leave it up to you as to whether or not this is something you think is a worthwhile investment. I'd love to hear from you. So please do send me an email@tri_docaticloud.com or drop me a comment and the private group on Facebook for the tri doc podcast. I'd love to hear what your experience has been, and I'll share Uh, the rest of my listeners. You may think that you don't know my guest for today's episode, but I'm guessing that you probably do and just don't realize it. Joe Wilson has been around the sport for a long time and has pretty much made it his mission to ensure that everybody knows that this is supposed to be fun. And if it isn't, then you're clearly doing something wrong. If he isn't out there competing somewhere up at the front of the age group ranks, then he's out on the course wearing a Speedo and a mullet wig and making a ton of noise to make sure that that you are loved and appreciated, and that you have an incredible cheering squad of one who just happens to sound like many. Well Joe antics in person and on social media have not gone unnoticed. He was featured in a front page article on the slow switch website that did a really nice job of capturing the man behind the toothy grin. And I, a much smaller deal than slow Twitch. Still managed to track him down in Ironman, Indiana. And then again, in Chatanooga where we got to know each other a little bit before I recently had him on the program to interview. This time, he's back to be in the usual seat that my guests occupy. And that's the one where I ask the questions and he gets to tell all of us a little bit more about himself. So for the second time, in a relatively short while I'm really happy to welcome Joe Wilson to the TRID podcast. Thanks so much again for being here

Jeff. Thanks for having me on, man. I'm excited.

All right. Let's get right to it. I wanna hear a little bit about your history in the sport. How did you come to be in triathlon?

Just no different than anybody else. I bought a bike, was running, was outta shape, overweight, all this stuff. And I said, I like to do triathlons. I did, 'em did a couple when I was in college. And this was 20 years ago. And so I go to, 20 years ago I get, do a triathlon and I don't even get on the age. Get on the podium or in my age group don't want an award, nothing I'm in the back of the pack. And so I signed up for this triathlon, had no idea how many people were there and I got fifth overall and I was like, whoa. Maybe I'm pretty good at this. And so I got an age group award. I won my age group and I was thinking, I was like, pretty awesome. And so then I was addicted, but come to find out, there was like 30 people at the triathlons but I didn't care. I didn't care. I'm like this, my first age group award, I was like, yeah. So I did some triathlons in 2014 and. Then it was like, cause I was super competitive, so serious. I loved the competition and I wasn't winning any age group awards or anything like that. And then it just just drove me. It was like, it lit the fire and I wanted to get better. I wanted to get better. And then finally like 20 15, 20 16, like I got on a team and, or all three sports team and thinking I'm like really good. And it started getting better and better, but. It was just a process. So my history was, I was in the army, ran in the army, rode bikes, with some friends, when I lived down to St. Pete, it wasn't until 2014 that I, really started, jumping into triathlon, like

But that's your background? As a runner.

Yeah, I I was more of a chess player growing up, I'll never, Hey, so in eighth grade, my best friend was faster than me and he probably weighed a hundred pounds more than me and I was the slowest kid in eighth grade. Yes.

so when did the run come? Because I know you are a very, you're a very prodigious runner. You're a Boston qualifier. I've seen your 10 K times. When did the run income for you?

I, they, you know what they say, they just say consist. It just builds. And I like to run and I just year after year of running, I just get faster and faster. Cause I'll tell you when I was in the army, I wasn't that fast of a runner. You have to do as a 17 year old. I remember you have to do 17. No, not 17, two miles and 11 minutes and 56 seconds. That was like, pieing the sky for me. I didn't know the a hundred percent that you could get, I knew the 60% and that was. 1554 and that's all out sprinting to the finish line and dying. And that, that, that was kind of me. The army forced me to run. And then when I got out of the army, I just enjoyed running. It was a way to lose weight, try to keep weight off, but my weight went up and down all the time. And I'll tell you, I'll tell you, it's funny now. It's as I'm 47 as of last week, and whenever I do 5k, I'll hit the two mile mark and I'll be. wow. That was faster than the fastest two mile I ever ran in the army. And that's in the middle of 5k.

Yeah.

so I, so to answer your question, it's just, and people don't wanna hear that cause it's not sexy. It's I just put a lot of miles on these legs. Try to keep 'em, healthy. No. No injuries over the years, luckily knock on wood, changing the shoes out regularly. I run in Hokas racing the Nikes. Honestly, those are those shoes are like cheating. I can truly feel a difference, so Yeah,

I feel the same way. And like me I know you've talked a lot about swimming being a frustration perpetually, it's tough as an adult learner. What are you doing to try and address the swim?

Oh, so I've been part of a master's group since 2014. And I, if you go look at Facebook memories that says, oh, I'm getting faster and faster. And then you look and say that's exactly what I'm doing right now. The same time. It's But I I've come to a realization that I'm always gonna be middle of the pack swimmer, or front of the middle of the pack swimmer, and then I'm gonna have to bike 'em down and I'm gonna have to run 'em down. That's the only way I can do it. Yeah. Yeah. I swim a ton. I swim a ton. I swim probably about 10 to 15,000 yards a week. And sometimes I get faster and sometimes it gets slower and it's frustrating.

Yeah. Yeah. Same. Tell me about triathlon Joe, because that's your alter ego. And I think the way a lot of people know you, so triathlon Joe, for those of you who don't know. An omnipresent force on the Facebook groups for any race that Joe is present is participating in. And he's also got a very entertaining Instagram feed. So where did triathlon Joe come from? And what's his mission?

well, triathlon, Joe was like. Back in 20 13, 20 14, when I would work out, it was like, Hey, going to the gym today. And that was when people were like, I don't want to know that you're going to the gym every time. And so I said, Hey, Facebook allows you to make pages. And so I said I'll make a triathlon Joe Page. And it was funny, Jeff, because, it asked you all these kind of questions. And the first question is this, are you a public figure? And I. Yes, I actually, I think I am. And then Facebook says, are you sure? And I was like, okay, no, I'm not really a FA that was just a way for me to divide my like regular life and then the triathlon Joe persona. And so I started pushing all my triathlon stuff to that page. And anybody that wanted to follow me could see all my triathlon stuff because. Let's be honest. Most people don't wanna see your, their Facebook feed with you doing all this stuff on, triathlon or working out or whatever. It's only like my close friends and that kinda, it started out as a joke, but then, I just, I. Got on some of these Facebook groups and started, people get on these Facebook groups, like the Chatanooga page and one, yes. I have a wealth of knowledge for that race, because I know that race inside and out, and I've done that race ever since 2016, I've ridden that course a million times, but then you start getting the same kind of. Over and over again, and people will get frustrated and I just like to have fun with it. So I would tell people, bring two, two buckets and one milk crate, if they want transition bags and, if you say something so outrageous, people obviously will not. People obviously know that you're joking, people took it on as, laughing at whatever I was saying. And then. And cause I would ask you really stupid questions. I felt like other people would then feel safe and comfortable asking questions. They need to know about, I remember the first time I ever did a full distance triathlon and they gave me these the bags, it was the beach of battleship. And I was like all prepared for it and ready to go. And it had, my number was one. And I thought the bags, cuz it said one 40.6 had everybody's individual number on it. I thought this was so cool. I had no idea that was the distance you can ask those kind of questions anytime I'm mom on a Facebook group, cause you'll get some people who are like tired of hearing the same kind of questions. There are always newbies on there. And so I I like to make sure people will feel welcoming, and are safe and comfortable asking questions. So I that's why I'll jump under and ask the dumbest questions. Did everybody's bag come over their individual number on it?

And just to clarify, he's what Joe's talking about is when you get the bag, it actually says, beach to battleship one 40.6 and Joe's number was one 40. So he just thought that every bag had their individual number printed on it. that's awesome. I love that. It's funny when I first I think the first group I joined that you were in was for Indiana and I kept seeing you, and I guess, Kyle. To Oliver, I guess his name was anyways going back and forth. And it took me a little while to figure out that you guys were choking because it wasn't totally clear to me, at least at first these guys are going at it pretty hard. And then I, it took me a little while to realize that you were joking and I often wonder, so some of the newbies I almost wonder if you're stressing them out at first because with all the swims canceled stuff and eventually I'm sure they come around and they

People get it very quickly and people always wanna know what the water temperature is. Is it gonna be wet, loose legal? Is the swim gonna be canceled? And. I just, I enjoy having fun with that. And, even me sometimes, I like there's a picture of me in 2015, the first time I ever did a 70.3 I'm backstroking because I freaked out in the swim. And so that's a lot of people's scary part of the race. And so I try to make sure people feel very comfortable, asking questions about the swim. Yeah. Cause we've all been.

and absolutely. And I applaud you for it. I also applaud you for putting yourself out there on the course in a Speedo and a mullet wig where'd that come from?

Okay. So a year ago a friend of mine, she was doing world 70.3 and she said, do you wanna come out and cheer? And I said I've never been to a race where I wasn't racing. And I was like if I'm gonna go out there and race. Not race. I'm gonna make sure I'm cheering for everybody. So back up 2015 Augusta 70.3, I did my first 70.3 and after I was done, I said, oh, I had a pretty good race and I feel pretty comfortable. But then I look around and there's still people out there on the course and it's like hours later. And I'd already finished, changed everything like that. And I noticed there was all these people. And nobody, it was just, it was dead silence. Nobody's cheering. Everybody's like walking through them, trying to get back to their car. And I'm like, no, if you're out on the course and I'm around, I'm gonna be cheering for you. And so I sit out there for two hours. My ex-wife was very upset at me cuz she's let's go. And I'm like, no, I'm gonna cheer all these people on. And so I sat out there for two hours after my race was over and I started cheering for these people and they loved it. People came up and asked me, told me later, Hey, appreciate you being on the course, cheering for us. And so I always said, if I had enough energy after my race was over, then I would be out there cheering. And I'd never really been to any races where I was not racing. And so last year I had opportunity to go to worlds in St. George. And I decided that if I'm gonna be out there, I'm gonna film while I can. Cause I enjoy videoing people or videoing triathlons. And I'm also gonna get out there and cheer people on. And so what's, what's the best way to cheer people on, Hey, I have this mullet wig from a Halloween a few years ago. Speedo is pretty funny too. So I got out there in the mullet wig and the Speedo and my thought behind it is, yes, I'm gonna be cheering people on, but if I can make people laugh or smile or something for just a few seconds that gets them out of that, this hurts right now, zone. And yes, I like a clown, on the course, but, and I say sometimes I say funny things, something, sometimes I say sarcastic things, because I don't want people to tell me you got this, because when I'm in the pain cave, I wanna hear something else. Don't tell me you got this. It's no, I don't got this. I've got another eight miles go and I'm dying right now. I don't have this I don't know what this is, but I ain't got it. And so I did that and had a great time with it. And people looked at me like I was an alien and, but then people started coming up to me like, Hey, my friend's coming through. Can you cheer for them? Hey, this person's coming through. Can you cheer for them? And I just, it's so much fun. And then. I added a megaphone to it. When I did the one in Chattanooga and it's funny, because world is one thing, Chattanooga, downtown Chattanooga, I stripped down to my Speedo and people were looking at me like, what is this dude doing? It's but I will say this, Jeff, because I stood out so much at worlds that Heather Jackson's coach was at Chatanooga the following. And he comes over to me and says, where's your Speedo? Cause I was still waiting for people to start showing up and I was like, oh, you remember that? He says yeah, I remember that. And so we stood there for two hours next to each other and I'm like, this guy is a very knowledgeable coach in the industry. Yes, I'm coach, but everybody has. Skill sets or knowledge. And I picked this guy's brain for two straight hours and he ran me down at the exact nutrition plan I needed for Indiana and I hit it perfectly.

That's a great story that I love that story. Yeah. Being well, being on the course, being noticeable and being PO a positive influence. All of those things. Know, lead to opportunity that I love that story. And I do want to just leverage that to talk about Indiana because I think your experience in Indiana is an example of adaptability about how so many things can go wrong, and yet you could still find success. So for anybody who doesn't know, Joe finished fifth in his age group and got us a lot to Ko. Congratulations.

Woo.

your first time on a podium at an Ironman and your first slot to Kona. So quite excited about that. But it was not without a lot of things going wrong. I think I always tell my athletes that I coach I'm like, listen guys. We don't try new things on race day. Race day is not the time to experiment. You want to make sure that you've prepared for every eventuality and experimentation with new things on race day is a recipe for disaster Joe, Joe doesn't prescribe to that's philosophy.

Oh,

Yeah, go ahead.

Jeff. I have the first time I did Chatanooga I switched new switched wheels the day before almost broke my back break the back wheel rubbed the entire time. I couldn't figure out why all these people were passing me. I have. Tried new water bottles tried new nutrition. Tried this. I don't know why I can't not get outta my head. I'm always like, oh, let me try something new on race day. And so

I gotta tell you of all the things of all the things that people have tried on race day. The one that you tried in Indiana is definitely at the first time I've ever heard of that. Joe decided he would try a one buy on race day on his bike. Now, for those of you who don't know a one buy is where you have a single front ring. You don't have a derailer. Joe rides a bike with a two by so he has both a big and a little ring, but he. Switched it to a one by removing the front railer. So I wanna hear the whole story about what possessed you to come up with this idea and why you did it. And then what happened?

So I was on slow. Twitch, did a quick search and people were talking about, you can take your two by and make it a one by. And I said, huh? I said, Indiana's flat and I don't need the small ring. I'm not gonna ever ride the small ring. I'm gonna be in the big ring. And if I take off the front derailer sure. That probably will save Watts. And so I was like, yeah,

and I'm curious, the people on slow Twitch were suggesting this would save how many Watts.

who knows?

Yeah, five Watts. I think that might be an exaggerated

It probably is exaggeration. And so I'm like, okay. And I did that and rode. So there's a place here in Atlanta. It's called columns. It's a two and a half mile. It's a five mile loop. You ride from one end there's no stop signs. It's a light in a parking lot. So you do a little loop. And so people will constantly ride. I I've seen people do a hundred miles on this five mile stretch and it's flat. There's one foot of elevation. If. And so I rode the bike out there one time for 15 miles and I'm like, okay, I'm ready to go. And so I got to Indiana with my one by, and it was ready to go rocking and rolling. And then mile 40, we hit chip seal and chip seal calls my bike to go from the big ring to the small ring and

and now you have no way of getting it back.

And I have no way to get it back to the big ring. And so I rode the next 70. What is that? 74 miles I or 72 miles in the small ring. And by the way, because we were on that chip seal, I had my front end ready to go all locked down. By the way, if I ever work on a bike, it's not gonna be, it's not gonna end well. And so my error bars go all the way. So I'm, I went from a 45 degree angle, hands near the face to where I look like the early two thousands. And the arrow bar is all the way down below. Arms straight out was the most uncomfortable 70 miles I rode and I and the front end was loose and I'm just like, please, God, don't crash. And then also, I don't tell, I didn't tell a lot of people this story, but that Wednesday before the race, I couldn't sleep. Cause I had a sore tooth and I said, just get me through, just get me through the race. Just get me through the race. I'll come back and take care of it because

You're talking to the dentist when you're saying that.

yes no. I'm no, I'm talking to myself.

And you're talking to yourself. Okay.

Yeah on Wednesday. And then, so I drove up there Wednesday. I got two hours of sleep stay with a buddy of mine. Thursday night, I got maybe two and a half hours of sleep. I bought every single thing from Walmart to try to numb the pain or whatever. Nothing was helping. Nothing was helping. I had to sleep sitting straight up. And so Friday I go to emergency dentist and the dentist. Couldn't figure out what was wrong with my tooth. He probably needs to have his license revoked, but he couldn't find out couldn't find out, couldn't find out what was wrong with my tooth. And lo and behold, it was a, I had a really bad cavity on the wisdom tooth in the back that if he had to pulled it that Friday afternoon, I wouldn't have be able to race on Saturday. And so I went back, he gave me some medicine. I got another two and a half hour sleep and then did the race. And so when they say you make sure you get enough sleep, sometimes that's right. And other times it's, I did nine hours of 50 minutes. So something went right. So I did the race, came back to Atlanta Monday morning, had that tooth just yanks and Yeah.

Wow. Talk about the poster boy for everything going wrong and still everything going. So that, that was quite a remarkable ability to succeed despite all of the, those headwinds. How did you feel on the run with

It's funny. The moment, the only time the tooth heard was when I laid down.

For your legs too, and I mean your position, just after being in the small ring and not being in the position you were used to because of the arrow bars.

It's funny because so I get off the bike and, the last 10 miles we're riding on this Greenway and then you're riding back in. And I think that because I rode the small ring and spun out so much, it actually saved my legs for the. And so my coach told me at the time, Joe, I want you to go out and run the first mile, 10 miles an 10 minute, a 10 minute mile pace. See if you can do it. I couldn't do it. And I'm out there running like seven 30 S and it just kept going. And I thought, eventually I'm gonna hit the wall. Like I do every single race, but I was taken influence. I was taken in jails and it I just liked the way that race was set up. Cause it was out and back twice. And. Told myself get the mile 20 and I got the mile 20 and I said, Hey, I still feel pretty good here. I can keep running and was able to, hold off sixth place and get fifth. So

Yeah, we had funny different experiences cuz I, I found that course to be relentless. We had similar bike splits. You were faster than I was by I think 10 minutes. And then on the run I finished the first lap of the run and I was just ready to be done. I did not wanna do that second lap. And then I got a split that showed that I was in, I think I was in. Third at that point. And I was like, ah, crap. I have to keep running. cause there was no resting for me. And I read your story where you said that you learned that you were in fifth and you had a very comfortable cushion on sixth so that you were able to just take it easy at that point. So we had different experiences where I knew I had to keep pushing and you were like, oh, I'm good. I could goes now so I But you still had a remarkable time, so sub 10 hours on a course like that is fantastic. So you've got your first lot. Yeah.

I'll tell you one other thing, one really nice thing about that race is that because I was so active on the board with the Facebook group that every single mile, every single age station, I was hearing my name called Joe, you got this good job. And so I never felt like I, I like people cheering for me, just like I like cheering for other people. And so I felt like the huge community pushed me,

no question. Hearing your name called out by people by random people is incredible. I actually, that's one thing, I don't think they're gonna go back to printing your name on the bibs, which I really think is too bad because that was something that was always nice that when people called out your name and Didn't matter who they were just hearing your name called by by random people was always a nice thing. And I missed that and I understand why they're probably not gonna go back to doing that, but it's too bad. So you have your slot and I know that we talked about this a little bit when we talked last time. Just curious what are your, how are you approaching that race? What are your thoughts?

It's to me, Kona is almost a victory. That's good and bad. Good. Because I don't feel like I had too much pressure bad because I feel like I train I'm training. I trained harder for Indiana than I, I will for Kona. Because I was head down power through for Indiana. That was the, a rays, 100% committed to that race. Whereas with Kona, I have realistic expectations, I. Not gonna get on the podium yet. There's a lot of people faster than me, but that was always the goal just to do Kona. So I'm, I'll be honest with you, Jeff. I'm struggling a little bit right now. I can definitely do the training and that's where I'm at right now. Just I'm checking the boxes. Whereas last year I. Enthusiastically hitting all the workouts, doing all the things. And so I've gotta step back a little bit right now and figure out these next 10 weeks, to make sure that I. Or not just checking the boxes, doing all workouts that I, you like I should be doing them. Because now I'm starting to feel a little bit of pressure because yes, I'm very competitive and there's some competition that's gonna be there that, no, I'm not gonna get top five, but if I get 34th and my friend gets 30th, then I'll never hear the end.

Yeah. That's okay. That's not a bad thing. Are you planning on cheering in the usual regalia on the women's.

what's funny because, I was talking to a friend of mine and he's oh, I'd sign. I'd totally do that with you. However, I've gotta race two days later, so I've gotta figure out. Yes. I definitely want to do that and probably will show up like that in my attire. For the underwear run, mullet, wig and underwear, but, and maybe I will be out there some on the run course on Thursday, but I still have a race on Saturday too. So

I feel the same way. When I have gone to 70.3 worlds, when there's, it's the women's race one day, the men, the next I have gone out and cheered the women on and I will do that again this year at St. George. But it's a little bit. It's only I have four hours. So it's a little bit shorter day. Ironman obviously is a lot, much longer day, but that being said, it's not like you're out there the whole time. It's not they're out for the bike for, six hours. So it's not like you have to be standing out there the whole time. And the marathon you can be choosy about when you wanna be there, you hang out on a Lee drive for a little while and. Maybe go check back, go lie down for a bit and then come back out for, when it gets a little bit cooler later in the evening kind of thing. I'm still of deciding how I'm gonna manage that, but I will definitely be out there. I have too many friends that are racing on the Thursday, so I will definitely be out there in some form. And I will certainly connect with you to make sure that we see each other

Bring your speed. O tip

Oh, yeah. Alright. There's we have it's amazing how many I continue to be surprised at how many people I keep realizing are going to be there. And it's really fun to know how many. Like previous guests of this program are all gonna be there. And I look forward to reconnecting with them all. It's going to definitely be a fun few days. Joe, what more do you think you have left to accomplish in this sport?

Think Kona will be my last Ironman, for 100% sure about that. I don't, I still, I enjoy triathlon because I it's, I'm still racing at a high level and, I can go out and compete and run a 36 minute, 10 K off the bike in a Olympic distance. But and with that said, but once I start slowing down, not hitting any PRS, do I start doing other things? Do I. doing trail runs. Do I start doing ultras? As far as like ultra runs, I don't know if I ever get to that point. I just, I enjoy triathlon, that's where it is. And I don't know if I have anything else to accomplish, I've won my age group by 10 minutes going away. I've been the first amateur across the finish line and chatting, at Augusta. and, I've won races, small races, but I've won races. And now the biggest, the final goal was Kona. And so that I'll do that this October. Now, I don't want to be that guy who does Kona and then never competes in triathlons again, because I feel like I, I love the sport and it's given me so much, mentally physic. It's just, and it's returned so much to me. Everything I've put into triathlon has returned so much to me, tenfold, I've made so many friends, people, always people, our age are always like, how do I make new friends sounding for a triathlon? You'll make tons of friends, just, you can't be shy in a triathlon cause you've gotta talk to other people. So yeah. Yeah.

I cannot think of a better way to finish than that, Joe, that really sums it up. And I agree with you I'm not going anywhere either because I, for the longest time winning my age group was like a really big deal. I've done that now. And you know what? I feel no less motivation to continue because I love this sport so much, cuz it gives me so much back and like you the people I meet and the friends I've made through it like yourself are really. Keep me so interested and so motivated to continue with it. So it doesn't matter when I slow down when I don't win my age group anymore. When I'm not when I'm just a shriveled raisin who can only participate. I don't care. I will continue to love the sport because of the people who are in it. And it's people like yourself. Joe, thank you so much for being here again on the podcast. I really always enjoyed speaking with you and I'm really looking forward to spending some time with you and Kona. 10 short weeks.

Thanks, Jeff. I appreciate it, man. Hey, and let's keep each other motivated until Kona.

That's it. All right. Take care, Joe. Have a great one.

you too. Thanks.

And that's it for another episode, the TRID doc podcast is produced and edited by me. Jeff Sanko along with my interns. I'm agent Johnson. This is special agent Johnson. Oh, how you doing no relation? I'm uh, I'm Jeff Sanko uh, the, the TRID doc. I'm in charge here. Not anymore. Those interns are Ian Johnson and Ben Johnson. You can find the show notes for everything discussed on the show today, as well as archives of previous episodes@triddocpodcast.com. Do you have questions about any of the issues discussed on this episode? Or do you have a question that you'd like for me to consider answering on a future episode? Send me an email attri underscore doz icloud.com or join the private tri doc podcast. Facebook. On Facebook and you can submit your questions there. If you're interested in coaching services, please visit tri do coaching.com or life sport, coaching.com, where you can find a lot of information about me and the services that I provide. You can also follow me on the tri podcast, Facebook page, tri dot coaching on Instagram and the tri dot coaching YouTube channel. If you enjoyed this podcast, I hope that you'll consider leaving me a rating and a review as well as subscribe to the show, wherever you download it. And of course, there's always the option of becoming a supporter of the podcast at patreon.com/try doc podcast. The music heard at the beginning and the end of the show is radio by empty hours and is used with permission, this song, and many others, like it can be found@reverbnation.com, where I hope that you'll visit and give small independent bands a chance. The tri doc podcast will be back again soon with another medical question for me to answer and another interview with someone in the world of Multisport until then remember 1121 and train hard, train healthy.