PJ Ellis (00:38)

thanks for joining us, Tracy. How are you this morning? You alright?

Tracy Westall (00:40)

Thank you for having me. Bit hot, bit sticky, but that's possibly a bit too much information.

PJ Ellis (00:45)

it's good, mate. It's good. prefer it to be hot and sticky. That's what it's all about. These conversations, getting them going. Yeah. So can you do us a favour, please? And tell us a little bit more about Tracy Westall.

Tracy Westall (00:55)

Okay, right. Well clearly from the accent, I'm a Brummie and a proud Brummie as well. So yeah, a little bit about me. Do you mean career or do you mean me? What do you want?

PJ Ellis (01:05)

What would you prefer? know, if somebody asked you that in the pub, how do you respond?

Tracy Westall (01:08)

that's a really good question. Probably like everybody else, I hide behind career, don't I? Because we all do that, don't we? Kind of defines who we are and what we are. Yeah, so I'm a long term tech executive, spent 30 odd years working for a big tech firm, big in the region and everywhere else. And then about 10 years ago, eight years ago, maybe I went portfolio, which basically means I do lots of non-exec work.

How I met Andy and I sit on a variety of boards, quite diverse boards actually, Department of Transport, so I do a bit of government stuff, WM 5G, so connectivity and digital enablement and two private equity backed firms and another firm involved in the digital transformation space to national security and government.

PJ Ellis (01:58)

Well, mean, how many hours are in your day?

Tracy Westall (02:01)

That sounds a lot. mean, to be fair, it's not easy. mean, actually, what we're doing here kind of has changed everything. And it's all about the workplace. It's not the same. If we had this conversation six years ago, I'd have been knackered because I'd have been literally traveling to London mostly or into Birmingham. actually, going online, the pandemic changed everything, didn't it? It kind of made hybrid working a little bit more acceptable rather than being something that just lazy people did.

Andy Dawson (02:29)

How does the portfolio career compare to having a long-term career?

Tracy Westall (02:35)

They're just different, Andy. I mean, I love what I do now. The freedom to do that. I always say to people who ask me bit of advice, I've got three criteria for anything I get involved in. First of all, I have to like the people. So, I mean, my advice is don't work with arses. So, because let's face it, if you can choose what you do, why would you?

So yeah, so like the people really important for me but personal chemistry I like people so therefore that connection matters Secondly, I've got to understand where I can add value I've got to be able to see that really clearly So don't just get involved in something for the the like the hell of it and then finally I've got it Ideally, it's got to have some sort of tech a bit of passion got to get the blood racing So because that's the criteria I use for the portfolio

I don't think you can always apply that to your corporate career, can you? I mean, it's not quite as simple as that. I had an amazing corporate career. You know, and I look back on it, I did some brilliant things. I worked in a great business and I worked in the tech industry at a time when being a woman in a leadership position was like being a unicorn. Actually, I'm not sure it's changed that much if I'm really honest, but it was definitely like that. So to do the things that I did.

I was a board director at 30 in the 90s, almost unheard of. So I loved my corporate career and now I love the career I've got. They're just different phases. They're chapters of your life, aren't they?

PJ Ellis (04:03)

I think that chapter's

quite important in this conversation actually. We'll come back to that. I've just had it in my ear. I've it in my ear. That it isn't Tracy Westall anymore. There's something else that follows, is that right?

Tracy Westall (04:16)

Yeah, yeah, there is. I was, well, recognised in the King's Birthday Honours List a few weeks ago for an honour. So yeah, really, as you can tell, a little bit embarrassed about the whole thing, very humbled. But yeah, so for sort of services to digital and to diversity, which I suppose is quite handy for this conversation, really.

Andy Dawson (04:22)

Okay. Woohoo!

PJ Ellis (04:40)

Well, massive congratulations. There's the brummie coming through there, you know, the humble sort of, yeah, I got an OBE the other week. Yeah, moving on.

Tracy Westall (04:46)

We're not

good at shouting it from the rooftops, I mean that's the thing about Brummies isn't it, we are bit self-deprecating, you know we can't crack on with it really don't we, you know it's what we

PJ Ellis (04:52)

Yeah, we are.

We are, it's like, you

it probably took you weeks to update your LinkedIn. If I ever got like a certificate, I've got 10 metre swimming badge, I'd be putting that on LinkedIn within a heartbeat. You're just straight into OBE as well, forget an MBE straight into OBE, just, you know, that's how Tracy works. Congratulations, that's amazing. Well deserved, I know the amazing things you've done to our community and in this space and Andy's always spoken so positively about you, so fair play.

Tracy Westall (05:00)

You

Andy Dawson (05:12)

Yeah.

PJ Ellis (05:21)

Your daughter mentioned the report, didn't she recently? What was that all about, Tracey?

Tracy Westall (05:25)

wasn't particularly that she mentioned the report, but she said something to me while we were cleaning her bathroom. Look, my daughters are obviously grown up, you've got young kids, both of you have, but at some point in the future, you literally will do anything to spend time with them, even if that means cleaning a bathroom. So we were cleaning the bathroom and I don't even know why this came up in conversation, but somehow the discussion of sexism in the workplace.

PJ Ellis (05:30)

yeah.

Tracy Westall (05:51)

clearly we obviously need to get out a bit more but that came up in discussion and she made a remark which kind of stopped me in my tracks which is just about sexism generally and that actually it's still rife and that really made me stop and the reason it made me stop was because I'm of a generation where we had to put up with all that crap literally and I thought

we put up with all that crap and driven some change so that our daughters and your daughters don't have to do that because we'd already done it. kind of, if you like, that was a battle that we'd sorted and the workplace and everything, the world is different and we can kind of move on, fight other battles. So was a bit of a shock for me to hear her say that that isn't the case. And actually it was quite depressing. And what it made me do was I

kind of started to look at it. And I found this report from Amnesty International about the impact of toxic tech and how misogyny is shaping, Gen Z's online experience. And I thought that was just depressing. The statistics were depressing. And it kind of gets you thinking that when, you know, how on earth do we ever move on when the old battles are still raging? That's just depressing beyond words, isn't it?

Andy Dawson (07:08)

I had look at the report and I'm sure we can assume we have notes. We'll put a link to it in the notes for the pod. Because you're right, the aren't good at all. But a couple of quotes I picked up. So this is about 3,000 Gen Z'ers who were surveyed. One of the female quotes about the subject was, it's so ingrained in society that many people don't recognise it when it's happening. It's so sad. And a couple of the...

Male responders, anything online is a joke. It isn't that deep. It's a laugh. And then another female comment was, online misogyny often reflects real life attitudes. It shouldn't be taken lightly. And that's, know, young kids, let alone the age that mine and PJ's kids are. I can definitely associate with the experiences they share with me about what's going on for young teens. But it's

going all the way through. And yeah, I was equally surprised when you shared it. And one of the platforms I don't have anything to do with that gets highlighted as a particular problem is TikTok, especially for the females. So if you, PJ, you come across this sort of stuff.

PJ Ellis (08:10)

Well, yeah, I mean, as a parent, I'm conscious of the world that these kids are living in. And I'm desperately trying to sort of control that. But even with these, even with every parental control that all these platforms seem to offer, things are still seeping through. You know, my son's 14, my daughter's 10. And if we are talking about misogyny and sexism, there are things that no doubt they're looking at that is gonna dictate what they think is normal.

And that's my worry. Tracy, you said like in your career that you understood that this was probably not the right way to do business or work. And I'm sure no doubt you said you had a very successful and within a brilliant space. You were a person that helped change perspective and maybe push back on that. But how does my daughter now know what is right? And then how do we as parents know what they need to know? It's just all a bit.

It's just mad, isn't it? It's really difficult.

Tracy Westall (09:06)

think there's a difference, there? And it is important to differentiate between sexism and misogyny. And I thought about this quite a lot, actually, about whether or not I could look back and genuinely point to misogyny experiences. I could point to loads of sexist stuff. I mean, that was kind of, you know, I mean, I went to work in the 1980s, you early 1980s. mean, having, I mean, it sounds awful, but having your bottom smacked really wasn't...

It wasn't unusual and it certainly wouldn't get anybody hauled up in front of HR. Walking past a building site and being whistled was just normal and you kind of had to muster everything and put your head down and kind of do that. That's kind of the societal things and none of those things don't necessarily seem important but of course what they are in the grand scheme of everything is that they are indicative.

of cultural behaviour, aren't they? That's the value. But, know, stupid things like I've been, you know, if I go way, way back, being in a room where I'm literally the only woman and the people thought I was there to take the minutes, you know, that kind of crap, that kind of nonsense that has happened. I wouldn't necessarily describe those things as misogynistic. know, misogyny comes from a really deep rooted place of...

PJ Ellis (10:09)

Yeah. Yeah.

Tracy Westall (10:21)

you know, not liking women and there's a difference, you know, it's and I, and I, I genuinely don't think I can point to many or any examples that immediately spring to mind. Mine obviously veer into that, but I think what frightens me for the environment today, first of all, there's a difference, isn't there, between the digital world. First of all, that makes everything more pervasive, more accessible. And also I think it creates a really

weird perception that it's not real. We talk about in the real world, IRL, don't they? They talk about that as if what goes on online isn't real. Of course, it's bloody real. And it's really real to the people it's happening to. And it's the reach. And it's those kind of things that really give these things some oxygen. I think that

The experience probably of younger people, particularly younger women, will be different to mine. You know, it's wrong for my generation to think we had it really bad and it's not bad for them because actually it is bad for them. It's just different in many ways.

Andy Dawson (11:30)

Even on things like LinkedIn, I see the occasional post posted by a female talking about the inappropriate dating messages, images that get sent on what is supposed to be a professional network. And that still happens all the time. Just a reflection for me, probably a couple of years ago, I remember a letter coming home from my boys' school.

The letter is a mixed school. The letter was about concerns that teachers were starting to express about the amount of Andrew Tate related kind of material and conversations that was just whipping its way around the kind of the classrooms. And I guess we've all seen him in the media of late, having, that's where the online comes in. know, having access to and being fed by the populist kind of algorithm. And I don't want to mention the Trump word ever again in this podcast series, but we'll.

get it out there and another similar character. That's what my kids are accessing and being shared. You can't try as we are as parents to get them off those devices, getting them off their platforms. That's where the mates kind of live. And that's a real challenge. I'm struggling to kind of get to grips with and balance out.

Tracy Westall (12:36)

But I reckon without mentioning the T word and that kind of stuff, the truth is though, the rise of populism in any form is always about having somebody to blame, isn't it? And we talk about the word toxic masculinity and that, I, I mean, you're guys, I mean, I'm imagining, that's quite a difficult.

conversation to have because the default position is not all men are like that. No, of course they're not. But there are some men that are. And therefore, how do you, there's no doubt that social media therefore creates a perfect environment for young people who are trying to find their way in the world, don't know. I mean, let's face it, you turn the news on and it's really depressing. You know, how do you find hope and positivity and the world that we're talking about creates

the perfect environment and women become part of the blame don't they? All of the things that are wrong in life are because women have taken this and have done that and all of that kind of stuff so you can kind of see that that way that these things feed if you like and that's a very different world that's not something necessarily that I would have identified as being a problem but in quite the same

in quite the same ferocity that it is now. I mean we had some examples of that of course you know I mean that old adage about women on boards and all of that kind of stuff you know how many times and and by the way people have actually said this to me yeah but how but I want the best person for the job so that can't be a woman is that what you mean seriously you know it's those kind of debates so it's well you can kind of see that

what how some of these things get a foothold don't you you can really see that.

PJ Ellis (14:17)

⁓

I wonder where it all starts, because you're so right, Tracy. I try and restrict the amount of news that comes into this house because the world is on fire. And then our refuge, if that's the right word, are programs like the Love Islands of this world, whatever it might be. And actually it goes from the world's on fire to a pastime or some light entertainment.

that then might show some of these behaviors that we're talking about because, know, blokes are encouraged to do X, blokes are encouraged to pull a girl to one side. All these, this vocab, as you put earlier, IRL, I'm NGL, not gonna lie. You I'm concerned that we are constantly pushing this sort of way of life into our kids' eyes and being that

I find it challenging to think they're ever going to be able to call that behaviour out. So my banter in the changing rooms growing up, you know, looking back on it, you know, there is a very fine line between, not fine line, sorry, a very clear difference between sexism and misogyny. And I suppose if you look back, there might have been a little bit of sexism knocking about, but how did kids this age now identify whether, I'm not saying sexism is right neither.

But how do you differentiate between the two? Like if you see someone overstepping that mark, that is like, hang on a second, this is pure hatred and something needs to be done. And likewise with sexism, how do these kids know that they've got to stand up and say something because they just see it everywhere?

Tracy Westall (15:40)

I'm not sure that there's an easy answer because probably if there was we wouldn't be talking about they'd had sorted it wouldn't they? But I guess it comes back to those small changes of behaviour and this might seem a bit of a tangential point but kind of indulge me for a sec. So I'm always a bit minded of Margaret, I think it was Margaret Atwood's quote that women, men are frightened that women will laugh at them, women are frightened men will kill them.

PJ Ellis (15:44)

Yeah, yeah.

Tracy Westall (16:05)

You know, it's quite a powerful statement, isn't it? And of course, what's the point that she's made? I was involved in a work related activity where I was doing some interviews with people I didn't know way back. And I don't even know how we got onto the subject, but it was kind of one of those conversations. And I said one the things from a woman's perspective is if you're out in the street, if you're out at night, so I'm going to London later. When I come back, it will be late at night. Now, let's just say hypothetically, I'm walking down the street.

and Andy's walking behind me or you're walking behind me PJ. I don't know you're a good guy. I don't know you. Well, I do know you, but you know what the point I'm trying to make. I don't know you. So my instinct will be concern because that's literally hardwired into us. Yeah. So the, if you like, the response isn't just to me, it's you guys taking some affirmative action. My husband's brilliant at explaining this.

Because we live really rurally and if he's out on a dog walk, which we, know, if he's out with a dog and he sees a lone woman, he will make sure he goes out of his way for her not to be uncomfortable. He would never follow a woman down a path. It's those kind of things. So I suppose what I'm saying is, which is an indirect answer to your question, we've all got to think about the behaviour that we can change. It's small steps, big impact, isn't it? We all do something small.

whether it's to say to your mate, don't be a dick, stop it, you know, or don't speak to somebody like that or don't do that or whatever. Or if it's, you know, or if it's, you know, taking somebody out of the situation, it's, I don't know, it's small steps, isn't it? We've all got to take a little tiny bit of accountability for our own behaviour. So I don't step tonight when I get off the train, I don't have to carry my car keys in my hand.

PJ Ellis (17:44)

that.

Yeah, in the middle finger like that, ready to go. Yeah, right? I think that's, maybe that's a question that, I suppose, you know, I'm thinking back to my mom's fundamentals, you know, the yeses, the please's, the no thank yous, the hold the door open, you know, don't look in a lady's purse. I still don't understand that one to be fair. Maybe it's on us now as parents, educators, leaders, business, whatever it might be, to have those conversations as early as we can, to add additional fundamentals. If you are alone,

Tracy Westall (17:50)

Yeah.

PJ Ellis (18:14)

and you're walking home and there's a lady, how do you better make her relaxed? When do those conversations start?

Tracy Westall (18:19)

I think there's truth in that, but just to circle back around something you said, all that said, I love being a woman. Love being a woman. I wouldn't want to be a bloke at all. love absolutely. I do. I love it. And I'm not offended if you open the door for me. I'm not, because that's just polite. And I think there's an element of we've probably

PJ Ellis (18:27)

We're too complex we are.

Andy Dawson (18:36)

Yeah.

Tracy Westall (18:42)

of got to recognise that actually it's okay to be polite to each other. I don't take one of you opening the door for me as a sign that you think I'm unable to open the door for myself. I really don't. In fact, I'd rather you open the door for me because you're considerably younger than me. So it's those kind of things. I mean, I'm being a bit flippant, but the point is we can afford to be a little bit less precious about some of those things as well. It's okay.

PJ Ellis (18:52)

Yeah, got you, course.

Andy Dawson (18:52)

Yeah.

I wish.

Yeah,

a couple of things for me, because I do that. My mom taught me to do that. My dad taught me to that. The old please and thank yous. think manners is everything for me. Probably a couple of thoughts. I posted something recently on LinkedIn, actually it was today, about the need to get for people generally to get out and about more, you know, see people again, shake hands, share stories, be vulnerable. And that's really true for my kids, you know.

Tracy Westall (19:10)

Bye!

Andy Dawson (19:32)

Think about how much time they spend online playing with their friends or doing whatever they do. I've noticed a big change in both of them as Ben started to play adult cricket. So he started to mix with different generations. It's a very welcoming club. there's, you know, there's all sorts of kind of people down there. So he's mixing with men, women, kids, all that kind of stuff. And then Sam has started waiting on it, weddings. And again, you know, getting out, solving problems, engaging with all sorts of people, the bride and the groom.

It's done them both a power good to see what really goes on in the real world as opposed to what goes on in the pretend worlds that they often play these games in. I think the same applies to us as adults, know, I'm mid 50 something. I'm certainly recognising the need to be out more to experience what's really going on rather than what we get fed through news and algorithms and stuff like that.

Tracy Westall (20:01)

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, I think you're right. I'm always conscious when I'm scrolling that you're being presented with things, but I think it kind of takes us into the conversation about what the future looks like and what AI means and everything else that goes with it. know, despite where we think about where we started this conversation, despite all of what we perceive as progress, you know, we're still in a position where only 22 % of tech roles in the UK are women's. You we haven't moved much. Five years ago, 17 % to 22%. It's not massive.

But when you look at things like digital leadership, CIOs, CTOs, it's only 12%. And then when you look at AI roles, 12 to 15%. So when you start to look at the disparity of that number, what you can then see is that we're, and the question we probably should be asking ourselves, which is real, are we baking in future problems? Because the world of AI changes everything.

PJ Ellis (21:11)

Well, mean, I suppose it could, mean, AI is wonderful, isn't it, if used properly, but with your experiences, Tracy, do you suspect that AI might become, make it even worse given that it can be sort of taking its information and its brain from almost like biased content?

Tracy Westall (21:26)

Here's a perspective. I'm not sure AI can make it worse. I think humans can make it worse. And I think one of the books that really was a bit of an eye-opener for me was a book called Scary Smart, Future of Artificial Intelligence and How You Can Save the World by Mo Gawdat And Mo Gawdat was the chief business officer at Google X. he's, AI experts tend to be either on one side or the other.

And he is still sitting on the fence of whether or not by 2055, we're either going to be sitting on the beach enjoying our free time or hiding from the machines. But it's a brilliant book. And he talks about three inevitabilities and the inevitabilities are AI will happen. It will outsmart us and bad things will happen because mistakes will happen. Those are three inevitable. So if you accept the principle of that, then the question is, what do we do about it? And I love his sentiment of we've got to be.

good parents, bad AI will be because of bad humans. I think what, and I think it probably links to the conversation we've already had in all of these conversations. You can't be a passenger. You can't stand to the side and hope someone else is going to fix this. Cause you know what? They're really not. The fixing of society, the fixing of making sure AI is

positive and does all the things that we hope it will do, et cetera, is something we've all got to actively engage in. If I had a pound for people who say to me, I don't understand it, well bloody find out then? For God's sake, it's not difficult. ⁓ ask chatgpt.

PJ Ellis (22:59)

Mate, you know what? You should set up a...

mate ask

chat GPT to create you a playbook to sell at $50 a go and you'll make a fortune, right? There we go. So you think then, so you're saying, and I agree with you, provided as parents, educators, employers, leaders, whatever, we are flagging behaviour, nudging accountability, AI then will be good, if that makes sense.

Andy Dawson (23:10)

you

Tracy Westall (23:24)

possibly a bit of a simplification, it be a more complicated. mean, Hollywood's made plenty of films showing us that, isn't the case? But I think the point is, and Mo Gawdat talks about this in his book, he talks about thinking of AI as infants, and that we've got a parental role to ensure that they've got good ethical structures.

that actually the AI learns within an ethics framework. Now, you know, they're actually what you're teaching them are good outcomes. Actually, we're just describing how to raise kids, aren't This thing. And actually, and I loved the reason that book, this book resonated with me is because I could see the parallel. I think there's a real danger that we disconnect which is where we started, the digital world from the real world.

PJ Ellis (23:59)

Yeah, yeah.

Tracy Westall (24:14)

There is no such thing. It is a single world. There are things that go on on what we call online, but they absolutely are taking place in the real world. All that's happened with the digital world is we've made it more accessible to more people more quickly. So actually, principles of good ethics, know, all of that structure, I really would recommend reading that book because what he's saying is we've all got a role to play.

Everybody has a role to play.

PJ Ellis (24:43)

Andy, that's a new feature then, mate, asking our guests to recommend a book. There we go. Do you say please and thank you to AI, Tracy?

Andy Dawson (24:46)

There we go. ⁓

Tracy Westall (24:51)

No, I haven't, but actually I saw a post

on LinkedIn the other day. There's a lady called Rebecca Mander who's a local lady who's fantastic. And I love I love what she does. She works with leaders and she's got a great backstory as well. Well, it's not she's got a really sad backstory, actually, but she's used it for such a powerful good, if that that makes sense. And I love the fact that she's given her

PJ Ellis (24:59)

Aw, she's great, yeah.

Tracy Westall (25:19)

AI a name. She put a person linked in the other day and I thought that was brilliant. She called it, I think she's called it Bee I think I thought that was fantastic. And actually what it made me realise is that I need to be a little bit more polite to my AI. Yeah.

PJ Ellis (25:25)

It is good.

Well, they'll remember

that, won't they, when they're sitting on the beach with you. Yeah, the AI assistant, Rebecca, he signs off with a little bumblebee, doesn't it, and stuff like that. So I had a chat with one the other day, and I read an article the other day, one guy asked his AI assistant to marry him, and he's married, and his wife was fine with it. It was bizarre, but really interesting because, you know, those relationships that, I mean, they are relationships we've got to build.

Tracy Westall (25:34)

Yay.

I love that.

PJ Ellis (25:58)

you know, with these AI tools in a weird way. You said they're almost like our kids. We've got that responsibility to nurture those. Talking of nurturing, do these...

conversations need to start at school? I know they're starting at home, but should they be more, should we be addressing them in the curriculum?

Tracy Westall (26:12)

Yeah, I think there's several things at play. The one thing that's always bothered me about tech, and we touched on it already, but one of the things that's always bothered me is around ethics. Everything, you know, if we look at what's gone on in the world, know, geopolitical and everything else, you could probably argue that there's been a big ethics gap on whether or not we miss that.

you know, did we not see that? If we go from the assumption that everybody has good intent, then I think that's possibly a bit naive because I think we probably know that's not quite the case. But actually what we want is, you know, we want to see an ethical environment. And I guess the starting point about ethics has to start really early because that's actually the right and wrong piece, isn't it? It's about, it's not about, I don't think it's about telling kids what

to do because I think that's I mean we all know don't we that is literally a recipe for getting them to do the complete opposite because we've all been there we've all been those kids but actually what it's about it's about creating an ethics an environment where they understand what ethics are and why they matter so what they end up with is they end up with their own value system their own course they need to understand that we've got value systems that doesn't mean their values are going to be the same as ours we have to recognise that

PJ Ellis (27:07)

Yeah.

Tracy Westall (27:27)

but actually creating an environment where they understand those kinds of things, I think, does become really quite important. And I think that has to start really, really early. And I suppose in a way, we probably do do that. We may not just realise that's what we're teaching. I think this idea of perhaps giving complete freedom maybe can be a bit misplaced. Actually, it's freedom within the constraints of ethical.

consequence maybe, I don't know. I mean, I don't have youngsters anymore and I'm relieved. I mean, my daughter's just turned 30, but at some point, hopefully she'll have children and then we'll have to start this fear in that point. she wasn't, she was, she's a millennial, just a millennial. So she wasn't truly digital native, but Gen Zs are the first generation who are true digital natives. They're wired differently. They think differently.

you know, everything about their perception of the role that digital plays. It's very, very different.

Andy Dawson (28:25)

mean, one of the things that brought PJ and I together to want to do something together, and it's taken a while, was about being dads, was about the concerns for our kids, wasn't it? About, you know, are they going to be equipped? Are we doing the right thing to kind of get them through school, let alone getting them into careers? And I have a concern that school isn't fit for purpose for a lot of this stuff. There's to be challenges in the workplace because, you know, there's real different views generally.

generationally these days about work alone, know, what you do and work and kind of what you don't. And I think you're absolutely right about needing to have that guiding path because kids these days are so tech savvy, they'll find guidance from something or someone else online or an avatar or something like that. So, you know, just got to be really careful about what goes on in those bedrooms and what they're looking at. That's always my biggest concern.

Tracy Westall (29:17)

This might be bit of an oversimplification, but you can only draw on your own experiences, can't you? So my parents divorced when I was really small. So in the early 1970s. So what that did was that made it really quite unusual. I was literally the only six year old in my class whose parents were separated. By the time I finished school, clearly I don't think anybody's parents were together. But I mean, back in 1972, it was really, and I wasn't allowed to tell anybody.

because there was a bit of shame. It's not because we were embarrassed about it, it's just my mom didn't want us to be teased. my mom was a really young mom as well. So she was raising two kids, I've got a younger brother. And she adopted quite a straightforward approach. I mean, first of all, you know, was different, parenting was different. She ruled us with a rod of iron. But what she had, looking back on it, was she had a really strong core. And as I grew into a teenager and

Andy Dawson (29:46)

you

Tracy Westall (30:13)

kind of all the things that went with that. She just used to say, she used to give me little sound bites and I kind of, they cemented kind of anchor points for me. she said several of her sound bites would be remember, cause we were obviously, you know, the equivalent of universal credit kids, you know, that kind of stuff, free school meals, free school shoes, that kind of stuff. And she would say, nobody's better than you.

remember that you're no better than anybody else but nobody is better than you it made me quite a bolshy 17 year old I have to say but actually what she anchored in me was a really strong sense of self-belief she also said which was linked to that nobody will do it for you if you want something you're gonna have to do it yourself because there is literally nobody you can rely on other than yourself so that's fine so that anchored in but the other thing that she used to say was I don't mind what you do but don't you ever bring shame to my door

Andy Dawson (31:05)

Wow.

Tracy Westall (31:06)

Though I just behaved myself. I had no idea what shame meant because it wasn't defined. But basically what she was setting out was a whole raft of rules and you it was quite simplistic parenting but it was incredibly effective. And the other thing that she did was she was a smoker. I mean ultimately it was responsible for her premature death but she said to me you can smoke if you want but you've got to pay for them. And I was too scared. Literally I'm not kidding. I was scared.

that I would like them and I had no money so I couldn't buy them. And I am almost 60 years old and I have never even had a puff of a cigarette. That's how effective that particular thing was. So what she worked out within the of the environment that she operated in was she worked out how to create a value structure in me. And it was really simple.

PJ Ellis (31:42)

Yeah.

Yeah, maybe we forget that sometimes.

Tracy Westall (31:56)

suggesting that it would work that way today but it's just kind of finding that vibe and why did all of that work? Because she was the beginning, the middle and the end for me. It was that simple. My biggest life fear would have been to disappoint her so therefore it worked didn't it? She was really clever. She was really clever because she knew

PJ Ellis (32:08)

Yeah.

I'm with you on that mate,

I'm with you on that.

Tracy Westall (32:18)

She knew that,

she knew I adored her, so she knew I wouldn't let her down. So she just played me.

PJ Ellis (32:23)

What a legend, what a legend, she sounded amazing. And how does that lesson now, that very straightforward approach that's very similar to my mom's and dad's Irish Catholic, know, don't bring trouble to my door, all that sort of stuff, and you don't, you take it to other ones. so now you're NED of these, you know, big businesses and government initiatives, whatever, some that might still be male, know, heavily led.

Tracy Westall (32:34)

Yeah. Yeah.

PJ Ellis (32:46)

How does that advice, are you rearticulating that advice to people like my daughter that's gonna be coming through and your daughter to give them that resilience, I suppose, or that knowledge or that framework that your mom gave you to stand up for themselves if they do see any sexism or misogyny. Is there any sort of advice that you can give me as a parent or as a business owner or to?

Tracy Westall (33:09)

Yeah,

I think the one thing that runs through is using your voice and that's everybody, you know. And you can do that in a variety of different ways. I'm not advocating, you know, it being necessarily an aggressive response. It's about an appropriate response in that particular circumstance, but it is about using your voice.

about speaking up and about saying, you know, whatever, you know, that's not acceptable or I have done this several times where I've been involved with organizations and I've said at the beginning of our interaction, where's the women? Where are the women? got any women, you know, kind of thing. I, you know, and it makes people uncomfortable and all of that good stuff, but I'm okay with uncomfortable. Making people uncomfortable has never bothered me.

truthfully because that's actually not really my problem. If I'm calling out something that I see as a behaviour problem and it makes you uncomfortable, you probably need to reflect on your behaviour a bit then don't you?

PJ Ellis (34:09)

the women or that. What about those women that are still scared of those men that are going to hurt them? How do they find that voice would you say? There might not be an answer.

Tracy Westall (34:17)

That's more complex. I'm not sure we have to find our voice. think we have to educate and train men not to hurt women. That's it. Ultimately, it's not about me. It's not about women dressing differently. It's not about women changing their behaviour. It's about men changing their behaviour. That's ultimately the truth, isn't it?

PJ Ellis (34:36)

and that's the lesson that needs to be on the curriculum. Because not everyone has got a mom like you and that framework, those values that I think are certainly installed and instilled in a lot of people I know, are probably those values that people are getting nowadays, I don't know.

Tracy Westall (34:47)

Yeah, I mean,

yeah, my mom's advice would be knee them in the balls and punch them but that's possibly not the most constructive piece it. Yeah. And there's a reality position in that, there? But I think the point is it's about recognising societally that that is something we've still got to change. I think what's the statistic, isn't it? A woman is killed by

Andy Dawson (34:54)

you

PJ Ellis (34:57)

Maybe that's sort of, what's the word, theoretically, knee them in the balls you know.

Tracy Westall (35:15)

somebody that she is with every other day. I mean, the number is horrific still, isn't it? So we are still in a situation where violence against women and girls is a societal problem. I mean, we've moved past, thankfully, it's a domestic and all that kind of baggage that went with it. But we are, you know, we are in a position we're still where it is. It's still a problem and it's still a concern that we've got to deal with. And it's a societal problem. And the only way you stop that is you have to stop men from doing it.

Andy Dawson (35:15)

Yeah.

Tracy Westall (35:43)

because ultimately that's what it is, isn't it?

PJ Ellis (35:44)

You got any closing comments, Andy?

Andy Dawson (35:47)

loved it and I think a good takeaway for me is just this simple little thing, little nudges that will make a difference. Sometimes it's so tempting to be over complicated and trying to find a solution. I've got a little framed sign I've got at home which I put my boys in front of every now and then if they've spoken inappropriately, not acted in the way. And it's got some very simple words on it which is don't be a dick. it's just a...

good little grounding of, know, reminding them of who we are, whatever the scenario. And so I think, you know, simple ways of doing things are where you start from for me.

Tracy Westall (36:22)

Let me give you a close view of just a closing point on that Andy, because I think that's really, really good. So the example I would use is my husband, right? So he has been married to me for almost 40 years. So the journey that I've been on in terms of my career, he's walked with me, right? And we've often talked about this. What's it like? And what's it like to be married to me? It's quite hard, actually. It's quite difficult.

If I go back to the 1990s and let me tell you an anecdote, you will not get your breath to this. So before we had kids, so I'm going back a long time, he was in the round table, right? And I was in the equivalent of, he got a company car, he got a BMW, right? In the job that he was in. And I'd got a company car, I had a Mercedes. And some of the people in the round table,

asked him how it was his company had given him two company cars, one for me and one for him. Because it was incomprehensible that a woman could be successful in her own right. Now, he was in that environment and to be fair, he was kind of, I suppose, having to put up with that crap, if you think about it. And he, you know, even as a younger chap,

Andy Dawson (37:18)

My word.

PJ Ellis (37:18)

Wow.

Wow.

Tracy Westall (37:37)

He always found it brilliant that I succeeded. So I guess what I'm saying is the real thing is where you've got sons is teach them not to be frightened of strong women. Teach them to celebrate strong women. That's the point, isn't it? And teach your daughters that it's OK to be strong.

Andy Dawson (37:52)

Absolutely.

PJ Ellis (37:57)

Wow, well there's the hard end that anyone needs. mean, we've got teach men not to be scared of strong women. Don't be a dick, use your voice. Toxic tech, ethics gap, don't blame, don't bring that trouble to my house. You can smoke if you want to, but you've got to pay for them. I mean, there's been loads of topics covered Tracy. And as episode one goes, I suspect that was pretty good. I mean, I feel like absolutely buzzed now to be fair. I want to take all this advice into the world.

Tracy Westall (38:10)

Yeah.

PJ Ellis (38:24)

How can we top Tracy Westall? Do you have any ideas or any recommendations of people that we should be speaking to Tracy?

Tracy Westall (38:30)

I

think there's lots of people that could do much, much better than me for sure. I think there's a couple that sprang to mind for different reasons. I thought Rebecca, I've mentioned Rebecca already. And the reason is that she has such a big story and she's used to take such, know, without sort of divulging her story, it's her story, but she's taken something that is just so dramatically awful.

and turned it into as much of a positive as possible. I am in complete awe of her. I think she's wonderful. And the other one as well, and I've introduced Andy previously, is a lady called Jacqueline de Rojas who is currently the chair of Bletchley Park Trust. So she would be able to give you a really interesting perspective about tech, codebreakers, the role that women played in the war. And I think that she would be a really, I mean, she's done a million other things as well as Andy knows.

But at the moment, that's one of the things that she's involved in, which I just think is an amazing thing to be doing. So there's a couple there for you.

Andy Dawson (39:28)

Fantastic.

PJ Ellis (39:29)

Rebecca,

Rebecca, Jacqueline, if you're listening, I'm gonna come into your DMs soon. Thank you, Tracy. Honestly, Andy, how are you feeling, man? I'm feeling absolutely buzzed about that.

Andy Dawson (39:37)

Yeah, fantastic. I can't wait for me boys to get home.

Tracy Westall (39:41)

not sure we've got the answers, but if we don't talk about the problems, we never come up with the answers, do we?

Andy Dawson (39:44)

of course. Absolutely.

PJ Ellis (39:46)

I think that's what it's all about, isn't it? Starting those conversations, peer to peer stuff that not everyone will have a 30, 40 minute with Tracy Westall OBE and now they will through this podcast. So Tracy, it's been honestly a real blessing. Thank you for joining us on episode one and we'll let you bugger off and get your train.

Tracy Westall (40:03)

Thank you very much.