Welcome to the Yappy Hour, powered by Yappily, the podcast for dog lovers who want to better understand and connect with their canine companions. I'm your host, Nathan Dunleavy, and today we're diving into a topic that affects so many homes. Yet often doesn't get talked about enough kids and dogs living together safely and happily. Joining me is Debby Lucken, dog trainer, behaviourist, and founder of Kids Around Dogs. A brilliant program that supports families. Professionals and even schools in helping children and dogs build positive, respectful relationships. We'll be chatting all about body language boundaries, dog phobias, playtime rules, and how we as grownups can set everyone, both human and canine. Up for success, whether you are a parent, a guardian, a teacher, or a dog lover, this episode is packed with insight and heart. So grab a cup of tea, settle in, and let's get started.

Welcome back to The Yappy Hour, powered by Yappily. I'm your host, Nathan Dunleavy, and I'm so excited to bring you another episode of The Yappy Hour Today. Even more exciting that I've got a friend and a colleague, Debby Lucken from KAD, also known as Kids Around Dogs. We're gonna have such a great chat today all about this amazing program and initiative that Debby founded. So, Debby, welcome to the Yappy, how the Yappy Hour get my words out. How are you doing?

I'm good. Thank you so much for having me. I am very good. Thank you.

Good. Glad to hear you. Okay, and you're most welcome. Thanks for coming on. So for those who might, who might not know your work yet, please could you tell us how kids Around Dog came to be?

So, well, I'm a mom as well as being a trainer and behaviourist and it actually started because of my daughter. She was bringing her little friends over when she was a a preschool and school. And I realized just how many kids were either way too confident around dogs and.

Mm

Tried to, to do things that weren't exactly making the dogs very happy. But there were some that were really, really scared of dogs as well.

mm.

to kind of help them both. And very, very rarely you'd find some kids that actually kind of knew how to be around dogs. They liked them, but not being over the top, you know, that kind of thing.

Yeah.

and so I started looking around for association that would, you know, that would provide these kind of things that would help doc professionals or, you know, children, families. in the UK I couldn't find anything.

Why?

and so I started thinking I would, you know, maybe I should, and then you know, years of thinking about it. And then the pandemic happened.

Yes.

And, you know, no better time than that, really with many more families adopting dogs

Yes.

you know, being housebound there were more risks and more problems happening.

Yeah.

and so yes, that was the really the best time to finally make that dream kind of come true. And it's been, you know, touch wood, been very successful and and I met wonderful people such as yourself,

Yes, yes. Yeah. Lovely. Yeah, I'm happy to be a KAD approved professional. And you very lovely. Helped me out with an event that I did in Southampton about, oh, about 18 months ago. And

I

I've had the chance to meet you a few times now at some of the conferences. And you are not far from me. You are in sunny Dorsett and I'm in sunny Southampton, so it's nice that.

sometimes.

Yeah. Sunny sometimes that's it. But yeah, you're in a lovely part of the world. Yes, and I'm proud to be a card approved professional, and we're gonna be talking more about that as we go through this episode and about the courses and stuff you do and what, you know, what the program is all about. And it's funny you should say that the kids were either really scared or overconfident, and I kind of come to the conclusion that there's no happy medium with children. They are either really scared or it, they're too, they're too overconfident. Like you say, they're too much and they just don't know when to, well, when to not engage and stuff. And like I say, you just don't seem to get that, that happy medium. So it's a great initiative.

it? It's

Yeah,

rare when, when

yeah,

I go, yeah. Oh, okay. There is a dog. Brilliant, but I'm also gonna live alone. It it, it must be really hard though for a child, because those

yeah.

are just so

Exactly. Yeah.

know, yeah.

Yeah.

in one way or another,

Yeah, so children have impulses and so obviously like dogs as well. But

Mm-hmm.

you know, a lot of it comes down to education. Again, we're really big on education on the yappy hour understanding canine body language, which we're talk about. But also the parents as well, because some children just go running up to dogs and without checking with the dog's guardian that it's okay. Whereas sometimes you do see or hear parents say, oh no, you need to ask permission first, and I think that's really important. Isn't that?

Absolutely. Yes. And should also, you know, be mindful of what the guardian says as well. So if the caregiver of the dog says, no, we need to respect that.

Yeah.

be a reason why they say, some people do justify and say, oh no, my dog is not very happy with children. Or maybe the dog has just had an operation. It's not necessarily, you know, there could be so many things, or maybe

Mm.

in training or whatever. And some people find it difficult that their children had said not to,

Yeah.

a reason. So whatever whatever it may be, or even if it's not given, we need to respect what that, you know, that person says and go, right, sorry,

Yeah,

this one? You know,

yeah.

next one.

That's it. And I, I've, I've have been hearing a lot more

more.

of the parent of the child say, no, wait to ask. And that is a good thing that the parents are taking sort of responsibility and ownership of that. So I, I know you said obviously you've got your own daughter, Molly. So what made you want to focus on that, that beautiful intersection between dogs and children? Was it your own experiences with Molly and her friends?

Well actually started a bit sooner than that. I dunno if you know this, but when I was a kid I was already dog obsessed.

Oh, okay.

But my parents were not.

Oh, yes. I think I've heard a part of, might have heard a bit of this story. Yes. Yeah. Go on.

My brother as well, you know, while he is an animal lover such he's not, you know, it was always like, whatever, we get a dog or we don't, I don't care.

Yeah.

but it was a, a don't, so I always dreamt of having my own dog, and then my dog would be my friend, and I wasn't although I'm not a shy person and, and kind of never was, I, I didn't have, you know, that many friends. So I could see the dog being my best friend.

Mm, that's lovely.

it was just an unfulfilled dream. So I think I kind of stayed with me and as then an adult and, you know, seeing how my daughter, what a beautiful relationship she has with our dogs and our cat. I'm thinking how. I really want this for every child out there that can possibly, you know, have this, this this bond, this relationship with

Mm.

And I just feel really sad for those children who are scared the dogs and are missing out on these beautiful animals.

Mm.

worry, and I, and I feel for children as well who might have dogs in their lives in one way or another, but cannot have that bond with the dog because they're maybe a bit too exuberant. And the dog is like, I don't like this. And it, and it's difficult. And for them to create that bond because

Yeah.

oh my gosh, your kids are here. You

Yeah, yeah,

that's really, that's what I wanted. Maybe the childhood that I didn't have in that

yeah, yeah.

it. You know what I

Yeah.

Yeah.

Oh, that's nice. And it's funny because a lot of the guests that I've had on had on the app, the Happy Hour. They all say that they've been obsessed with dogs since we, since they were, were kids. And then I think to myself, God, I was I a bit of a late bloomer? Was there something wrong with me? Because I wasn't obsessed with dogs when I was a kid. And like, no, in my, we didn't have them growing up. We, my parents didn't have them for various reasons, and my, my grandparents did. But like, I then got my first dog, like when I was 30 and I moved into a house with my, my now husband. So that's been just over 10 years that I've had dogs. But I, I then became quickly obsessed like when I got my first dog because now I've got bloody seven. But I just think, oh God, am I a bit strange that I wasn't obsessed when I was younger? But now, as soon as I hit Farty, I became, I became obsessed and I, I'm a bit of a late bloomer.

Yeah. But you're catching up very quickly with seven all at once.

Yeah, I mean, I'd never have seven again, don't get me wrong. I think sort of two two's enough. But yeah, I mean, yeah, there's reasons for that. But yeah, so I'm, I'm a bit of a late bloomer to it or I wasn't obsessed as a child. But anyway. Hey, hey. Moving on to our next section. So what is Kids Around Dogs KAD? Can you give us an overview of what the KAD program offers and who it's designed for please? Debby?

So kids around Dogs is an association of professionals not only dog professionals, so think trainers, of course, behaviourists, groomers, vet and vet nurses and

Hmm.

only for US dog professionals, but also for people who work in the childcare industry. So that could be teachers, for example, or child services you know, that area as well. And we specialize in working with families and in schools as well to, kind of help children and dogs to live happily, to be safe together to understand each other, to respect each other. So they all leisure the whole thing with kids and dogs. And that's why our courses are they kind of concentrate on family dogs and, you know, the, the family dogs as in a dog, in a family with children. And dog as well. In fact, kids Around Dogs is a founding member of the National School Dog Alliance.

yes.

we we concentrate as well on working with neurodivergent children and

Mm mm

So again, on specializing on, on the dogs that are assisting children who are neurodivergent the fear of dogs.

Yes.

fur dog is quite a big thing. In fact, it's kind of started more with that because it's

Right?

thing.

Yeah. Yeah.

and it was just over five years ago that I created a protocol to

did?

fur dogs and kids,

Yeah.

it worked amazingly well. So much so the, even children who are scared of other animals were able to translate what we do with, with dogs, with other animals well,

Oh, interesting.

fears. It's brilliant.

Yeah,

that goes to the cleverness of kids. I don't, I, I wasn't planning on making that happen.

yeah,

again, it worked so well in kids. Then I've adapted the protocol for the adult

yeah. That's right. Yes. Love that.

'cause you, you see so many adults going, you know, I lived with this fear my whole life, or something happened or whatever. And now we are working with them. And these also been proven very successful and mustn't forget as well that a lot of adults are either parents or are going to be parents. And

Mm

the their fear kinda gets rubbed off onto to the kids. So,

mm

uh, helping the adults can also help future generation children. So, really lovely and oral courses and obviously school talks as well or talks to educational talk to children about dogs, which is a bit as well what you did at

I did.

store,

the pet store.

you know, educating the public. And again, we normally call them school talks away, but your talk was in a pet store, for example.

It was, yeah.

be Yeah,

Yeah. You can adapt it, can't you?

Absolutely. Yeah.

Yeah.

So, yes, so we, we really want to help children and all dogs in different situations of their lives and different stages as well. And then every month we also get webinars from various experts in their field to help us with extra things like say for instance trauma within the families for children, for example. How do we help a child that might have gone through certain kind of trauma? How do we offer the best services for these kids?

Mm

we are working with a reactive dogs. You know, there are so many variation to what we do that knowing as much as possible really help us to better serve our

Yeah.

end of the

Yeah. So yeah, I mean there's a lot of strands to the program isn't there? It's not just sort of one thing. You've got these different branches and

yeah.

great. I mean, I love that you designed that protocol and you've extended it to adults and that the children are using it, other animals, but also that the kids Organi, the CAT organization is now a global organization. You've got members, professionals from all over the world, haven't you?

It

amazing.

I, that shocks me still at the

Does it?

like I said, it

Oh, that's,

know, when I started I thought, you know, the, I, I kind of, you know, concentrate in the uk and

yeah,

kind of outside of England was Scotland. I'm like, oh my gosh, we're in Scotland, you know, can you believe it?

yeah,

oh my god. And and now we're in Mexico and the

yeah. You're, you've got them everywhere.

And it's like, oh my God, what's

Great.

But that kind of shows as well that you know, different professionals do want to guarantee that they can offer the best services to

Mm

and their

mm

wherever they are.

Yeah.

really, yeah, it's been lovely to see to see appreciated in

no, it's obviously great that the message is getting out there and it's reaching other professionals worldwide. And yeah, I've started to see a bit of an influx in people inquiring as well. So another feature you've got on your website, Debby, is, is a list of approved professionals. Now for whatever reason, I, I am an approved professional, but I'm, I'm not actively working as one because I've just got other, other priorities that I'm doing at the moment. But over the last few months, I've seen an influx of inquiries come through from the website where people have found me on your website as listed. And they've, they wouldn't need help with their, and a lot of it's been with children that have had fear with dogs. So

Yeah.

another good feature on your website that people are using.

yeah. You know, and I think as well, the, we must have forget the kids around. Dogs actually started four and a half years ago.

Mm-hmm.

And while you'd still try, you know, with marketing and you know, you use social media and stuff like this, it does take some time

It does.

public to be more aware. But

Hmm?

as you, as you know, we do crafts every year.

Yes.

This, this year was probably the one where people really knew us the most.

Oh,

They

okay.

sense of, oh, I've heard about you guys. I was like, oh my God. That's, that's amazing. And it's

Hmm.

those things that does take a little bit of time to to become known by the public, I think more by professionals is, is

Yeah.

a while and I think it's kind of normal as well. You know, you talk to your colleague and go, have you heard that? It's the general public that we obviously want to know the most about us so

Mm-hmm.

obviously get more clients and help more children and going to

Yeah.

and such. And definitely it has, I I've seen an an increase on, on, as been known by the general public in event, such as, like I said, craft

Yeah.

famous one.

Yeah.

but also it is really thanks to you guys as well, all the cpro profession. I mean, look at you, Nathan, how much you do and you're doing the pop 'cause as well. There is a, you know, it's a lot to do with you coming out and go, you, this is what I do. This is where I am, and you

Yeah.

your, your own business and your own association as well. It, it does it really does amount. It

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I actively promote it anyway. That, and that I am, and I love, love you obviously in all that you do.

thank you.

And like you said about that event, I did do it at a pet shop, even though they're normally school talks, they, it can be adapted because it really is about education, isn't it? Education, education, education. Just getting those people and, and you know, getting them obviously made aware of it all.

So

so that moves us on to then, why

why

do you think this topic is maybe overlooked, even though so many households include both dogs and children?

you know there is always, there is, there are so many different, kinda ways of looking at this either. A lot of people think, oh, dogs are are awesome, dogs are okay, dogs are are resilient. Dogs can endure anything. And a lot of families don't even train the dog. Not even like in puppy classes or anything and just go, oh yeah, dogs are right. You know, they kind of have that maybe the Disney dog idea

know even.

go, oh yeah, it'd be fine. Yeah. And they regret their choices after a bit when they turn teenagers go, my god, wait a minute, dog.

Yeah.

so, you know, there is a little bit that problem that the idea the dogs will just be okay. Because they love humans and they, you know, they are that unconditional love There is the idea. So, and I think that while a lot of it is of course is true, dogs are awesome. But we mustn't forget that they're still animals and they're still

Yeah,

into a families that have all these technologies they don't know anything about. And all those things that make a lot of noises, especially when you have kids. And and we are all busy, you know, family even when you don't have children, you're super busy. But when

yeah,

more 'cause you

yeah.

them everywhere. And there is this activity, the activity. So there is a lot going on. There is a lot of stuff around the house, toys, extra clothes, you know, extra everything.

Mm.

effectively for a dog that comes into a household with kids, it's like doubles, you know, triple the work then a dog that, that, that doesn't. And I think the family cannot, takes. for granted

you are right. You're so right.

Yeah. so I think that's, that's a bit the why it might be underlooked. And then there is also another thing that I notices more and more how some people go, my I'm okay. I don't have to like kind of get my dog used to kids 'cause I don't have children.

Oh,

that's fair enough. You can, it's

yeah. Yeah. I don't have, I don't have children, but

But guess what? There are children out there,

there are,

kids. If you go outside, chances are you're gonna see a kid.

well, I've got nephews and the dogs actually are all good, are good with the nephew, the younger one particularly. But yeah, it's a bit naive in it to think like that,

Well, yeah, because for instance, I have one child, and now you probably know she's a teenager

Yes.

little, little, but when we go out. There are so many kids out there and still a lot of children, especially when they see my gold retriever, they go, oh, doggy. And they want to come and say hi to her. And obviously she's like, bring it, you know, she loves kids. But what if she didn't or what if she wasn't prepared? You know, things like this.

What are the most common concerns that parents come to you or your KAD approved professionals with?

So I think Bueno obviously is the fear dogs that is, probably because

Yeah.

unique in that respect. You know, our protocol is is dedicated to the kids and, and also there is a, the one that is a different one for the adult. So it's quite a niche, if you like. So there

Mm.

there is definitely that, the other thing is definitely like when they they have some mouthing going on

Yeah,

they might know that the, the parents might think, oh, the dog is biting the child. You know, you might have heard that expression, but actually it's the puppy stage of mouthing and adolescents and all that. So I think that is quite a big scary thing for, for a lot of people when we can actually manage it quite well and then teach the dog and teach the kids as well and the rest of the family for the dog to use his mouth in a different way rather than, you know, eating us alive.

yeah, yeah. Little land sharks. Yeah.

yeah, yeah. They are. They are.

Yeah. So that's the main thing then really is the, is the fear of them as really as well.

the biggest thing is definitely the, I would say is the fear dogs. Again, I think it's because we are quite unique on that,

Yeah.

And, and recently as well, you know, working with neurodivergent kids,

yeah.

a big Yeah. Quite a big thing. Yeah.

Does it tend to be because a dog has bitten a child or they've had a bad experience?

You know, actually when I was, I was creating the protocol and the so I was putting it together, I expected that to be, the reason I always expected it's got to be a bite that creates

Hmm.

a fear. But the more I looked into it, and even now, you know, years later that I've, you know, kind of, come across more and more families, their reason is in fact the biggest reason is because, the dogs might have chased a child who is either on a bicycle or scooter. That is actually their biggest reason why kids develop the fear.

Hmm.

it is a bit sad, isn't it?

Yeah.

as trainers, as well as professionals, so many times we tell our clients, you know, make sure that, you know, let your dog off the lead, especially if he chases bicycles. Make sure he has a good recall before you let them off the lead. You know, that kind of thing. So the actual biggest reason why kids are scared, the dog could be avoided with, you know, with good training there and

Yeah.

effectively.

definitely.

Yeah.

Brilliant, thank you. Let's move on to our next section, which is all about reading the room and dog body language for families. So obviously we've spoken and touched briefly on canine body language and it's so important that we understand that and children understand it. So, what are some signs that parents and children might miss when a dog is uncomfortable? Debby.

I think the biggest one are the stress signals. So when a tell, when a dog tells you,

Hmm.

like this, but uses signals that are not maybe as obvious or as known. For instance, if you see a dog that moves away, I. There is a more understanding to go, yeah, that dog doesn't like it, so it goes away from it. And

Mm.

Makes sense, if you

Yeah,

But

yeah,

those, those stress signals, so called calming signals such as yawning, for example.

yeah,

Shaking off as well lip licking. Those are all signals that dogs use to tell us, look, this is too much, mate.

yeah,

Calm it down a notch. You know?

yeah.

For instance, my p when things are too much, she's got the lip licking that

Oh, right. Okay. Yeah.

When instead my go retriever, she scratches when is she needs a second to think about stuff. So she scratches herself.

Yeah.

that could be, maybe the kids are being too loud. When we had the trampoline for a while, for instance, so the trampoline was quite stressful for her at some point. So I'm like, all

Oh, okay.

let's, because she couldn't understand it, let that,

Yeah.

Oh,

the noise,

and you're jumping.

the noise was probably a lot louder. Yeah. 'cause they hear better.

it's

Yeah.

you know, a whole thing of, of not understanding what the heck is going on in

Yeah.

So, but yeah, so, those, those signals are the ones that I are the ones that dogs really go to

Mm.

very, very often but are the most difficult for people to, to know about

Yeah.

recognize

Yeah.

stress signals. Yeah.

Yeah. And obviously before I became a dog walker or dog trainer, I didn't know those signals, what, that's what they meant. And obviously we don't know what we don't know. And I think that's where it all comes back down to education again and sort of raising awareness. Because like I say, if a dog was yawning or lip lick, and I didn't know that was a stress or carbon signal.

yeah. Yeah.

So it is important that we, you know, we make people aware of these things, these signs. How can we help children and adults understand that not all interactions are welcome even with family dogs?

Yeah. You know, actually the, the biggest problem is often with family dogs. Those are the ones where more injuries have happened. Dog related injuries have happened, and that's probably 'cause we take a bit, maybe too many liberties with our dogs. We go, oh,

I've, yeah. Great.

are made. You know? So I think again, it's what you said before about awareness.

Mm.

Let remind people that even if it is your dog, even if you know, you feed him all the time and you, you give him all the love in the world sometimes that dog might just be in a bad mood,

Yeah,

not be well, you know, sometimes because they're so good at hiding,

they are.

injuries that

They are.

it's just, even

I.

an ear infection is so difficult to see or to know that they have it. But that can be painful. That can be annoying, and that can make the dog go, I can't tolerate anything and just. You know, send them in a mood. So while a lot of people will say, oh, don't, humanize the dog and everything, but actually I think that is helpful to relate to the dogs because I dunno about you. But while, you know, we normally, when we see each other, we see each other with a smile and everything is fine. But life doesn't work like that does it? Life does not work like that. And some days you wake up and you go, oh my gosh,

Yeah.

even wanna get out of bed, you know?

Especially if it's winter. I'm not so bad now. Now we're going into spring, but God,

Sometimes it's, it is hard, isn't it? You

yeah,

or maybe you have a headache and you can't see a headache. You know, it is not like, dunno, you're bleeding. It just, it is there and you're, you kind of just going through life with that headache going, oh my gosh, it's, I need to go and get paracetam or something. you haven't got access to, so in at that moment you might be a bit in a bad mood, you might be tired, you, you're frustrated 'cause this headache is not lifted, whatever it is or just happened that winds you up, whatever it is at that moment in time, you are not your usual sunny

yeah,

maybe something happens, someone makes a comment or says something that just annoys you go, oh, just leave me alone. you react in a way that they go, what's wrong with that? You know,

Yeah.

in a mood, you know?

Yeah.

and dogs are the same. Dogs

Yeah,

the same.

yeah.

yeah, I

And

to be very mindful of that.

yeah, we do. And like you said, they're very good at hiding pain. And

yeah,

with us, if we've got a tooth fake or a headache, our, our friends or our partner gonna know about. And it's the same with dogs. Like people are like, oh, why are they, why are they barking? Or why are they doing this or I doing that? It's normally because a lot of the time it's underlying pain and you know, it's not been disclosed. And I know what I was when I lost my train of thought earlier, and it's, it's made, it's come back to it, is that you mentioned, you know, they are animals and animals are unpredictable. So you, you have to bear that in mind.

And in a way, you know, in a way it's, again, that's why I love working with kids too, because. Kids are the same in, if anything, I think the kids are more unpredictable than dogs.

Yeah.

dogs seem to have a bit more respect and they go, you know what, I'm gonna yawn So you know that things are, you know, not now, you know,

Yeah,

Kids are not gonna, yawn

no, they don't give you those.

it.

They don't give you those warnings. They go straight in through it.

at

And they're obviously not robots, are they? You know, they're sentinel beings, so,

Yeah. And they shouldn't be. Yeah. Yeah, yeah,

it's important to remember that. Debby, Debby what role does consent play in day-to-day interactions between dogs and children?

You know, consent is, I think especially these days, we are much more aware of it, not only between, you know, kids and dogs, but. Amongst us humans as well. Even children at school get taught about consent and like, you

Oh, they do.

go and yes,

good.

they need to understand the difference between what is appropriate that is done to them and what isn't.

Right? I.

you know, it's, it's so sad. It's such a dark thing to think about, but unfortunately it happens. So a lot of children might not know that what someone is doing to them is wrong. And they think that everyone. Goes through certain events, but

Hmm.

they're not, and they are inappropriate and stuff. So in schools, they are teaching them,

that's good to know.

from little age as well. So it's quite, it's great that they do at the same time, thinking, my gosh, the fact that they need to know is

Although, I know,

you

I know what you mean. Yeah. That is

can't even, but you know, in a way, because they are taught in schools as well, it kind of helps with our job to be fair. And and the fact that we, we are teaching and we need to teach children that you can't just go and hug a dog without give permission effectively. You can't just go and and start coming. For example, even grooming the dog without permission. Like when we do some grooming in the house, I show the brush to my dog and see what she does, what they do, and I go. Wanna, you need it, mate, but want it? you could look better than you do now. So I still show her the brush so she knows, and then she goes, yeah, I'll come over now and we'll do some brushing.

Yeah.

moves away, that's it. She stopped. And things like this really do help because then the next time that I need to brush her or, or you know, that I, I want something from her, she'll trust me. She goes, if I don't want it, she's not gonna chase me around the house. You know, try to hug me, try to brush me or whatever. And that is the same, that is the same with kids. How many times do I want to hug from my daughter? And like I said, she's a teenager now. I wanna hug for my daughter. And the hug is more for me than it is for

Yeah.

And I, she was little, it was like a

There's all, all the time on it. Yeah. Now it's not cool,

now I

but

have to pay her to get.

yeah. But then when she gets older, you are, it'll be fine again because I, you know, you love hugging your mum when

I know.

you're older.

But still, you know, it, it, that goes back to the fact that now I need to, you know, go, can I have a hug? And if she says, no, I have to go. Okay,

Oh,

Like, like with a pathetic face. And she goes, mom,

oh, bless.

Blah. So if, but I, that is also part of of teaching her that, you know, she can say no, and it has to be respected. And that's the same thing that we, we teach kids in schools or, you know, at home, even the little ones, you know, you don't want to be hugged all the time. Dogs don't want to either. You don't want your hair to be brushed all the time, and

Yeah.

don't, they don't want it. You know, things like this that they can relate to as well. But that is important to know because effectively forcing ourselves into a dog could mean that the dog goes, really, I do not like this. And if they will try to use all the signals and like, you know, the lip leaking the urine and so on to tell us, do not like this. But if nothing works, they might have to escalate to, to the worst possible, you know, point that could be a bite.

Yeah

we don't want that to happen. Of course. Not only because, you know, the child would get hurt. We could get hurt, but that also means that the dog was so stressed that he had to get to that point,

that's right. That's the shame.

too. So,

Yeah,

You know? Yeah,

that's a real shame, isn't it?

Yeah. It really

They get to that point.

Yeah.

brilliant. Okay. As you were talking about, I was just thinking about when I was doing a lot more in person training, I was thinking about the little sessions that I did, did do with children. And it wasn't with dogs, it was like at their house and I was doing, like, I had like a group of three boys, like from different ages then two sisters. And I was doing, 'cause you've got all these amazing resources on your website for

thank you.

professionals, all the coloring in and

yeah.

you take the stuffies and then you teach 'em where they're able to touch 'em. And it just, it just brought back some really nice memories I was doing these sessions with, with the children. Just, you know, teaching them how they should interact with look and that. So That's good. I'll have to get in, I'll have to get involved with those again soon.

Yeah. 'cause you were great at it as well, and I think you had fun as

Yeah, I did have fun. It was great because like I say, like you often do work with the, with the dog and the adult or the, you know, the guardian, but the children are sometimes involved with the train, but where you've got a, a session that's just focused towards the children, they're more engaged and you are doing games with them and you are getting them involved and yeah, it was, it was good fun.

Oh.

So moving on then to our next section, we're gonna be talking about prevention over correction setting the dogs and kids up for success. What are some practical things families can put in place to avoid issues before they start?

So my first thing, I, I think you know this, I'm really big on supervision.

Yes.

and when I say supervision is active supervision, that

Mm.

you are not on your phone, you are not reading a book, you're not chatting with your friends. Well, you are literally. Body and soul. I always say body and soul there with the kids and the dogs at any interaction. So for instance, cooking, that's if you're cooking, you are not actively supervising

Yeah.

literally just that.

Yeah.

and so that's a very, very first thing, really important. And then obviously we know that. difficult to have your eyes everywhere. So having playpens there, gates, any kind of dividers as such? It's brilliant. I'm not overly keen on crates, simply because dog doesn't have a way out

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

especially if it's locked, but sometimes even when it's not locked the, the child might get to the the door of the crate effectively, and then the dog is just stuck in there. And so many times as well, we see, you know, children getting also into the, the crate with the dog. So, that's why I'm not you know, I'm never a fond on those. I like to be able to give the dog a choice

Yeah.

whenever possible. So any dividers as such though, is really, really helpful because as parents or guardians, you can't, you just can't have your eyes everywhere. That's impossible. So in that respect, then you know that even if you are doing something else the kids and the dogs cannot. Interact without you there. oh my gosh, I forgot what the original question was.

Oh, no, it's fine. That's fine there. We yeah, so you've already saying like, what are the practical things that families can put in place to avoid issues before they start? So obviously active supervision and the playpens and

the other thing I, I, I really like to say as well is to involve the children

Hmm.

training and activities with, with the dogs. And this is something I think we, we talked about this before, you and me, how in classes or whatever the parents will come and go, oh, no, the, the kids are not here. Oh, why not? You know? Oh. be too destructive or they're being a bit difficult around the dogs, then bring them, there is

Yeah,

reason actually

yeah.

to for them to be here because then they can learn what to do around the dogs,

Yeah.

can, can they do, what

Get 'em involved.

So there is so much, the kids are actually better than adult and, and they actually listen more than So, yeah, get the kids involved, get them to help with training, get them to help even with little chores around the house, dog related, for instance, changing their water in the bowl fluffing in the beds, you know, that kind of thing. All sorts of things can, can really be, the children can really be involved with even the little ones can do. Easy things. And if you are worried about, you know, the child wanting to be too much involved in the kids, in the in the training or activities with the dogs, then you can give them something else that is still dog related. For instance, they could prepare a Westport toy or poisoner toys like to fill up with stuff.

Yes.

they could they could color in one of our body language coloring in pages. They could also draw the menu of the dog for that week, and they're gonna have chicken, they can draw chicken and that kind of thing. Really you can get little ones kind of, you know, stuck in and, and help out in different ways as well.

Yeah.

And goes well with what your child likes.

Mm-hmm.

they, if your child is not very creative, maybe doing some drawing is something that they might not enjoy, but maybe they'll do something else instead. They could be more into the chores, things of of you know, the part of tidying up after the dogs, let's put the toys away, you know, that

Mm.

I must say my daughter was never into, let's put the toys away. She was more into the creative side of things, and

Why?

I'll tidy up then. But she

Yeah.

you know? She still helped a lot. So,

Yeah,

we, I, I think, I think, yeah, a lot of the time we underestimate just how much kids can do and we should, yeah, we should get them more involved in,

yeah.

and training. Absolutely.

them. I know that when Molly was a bit younger, she was involved in some videos and stuff, wasn't she?

much. Yeah, absolutely. So, so

Oh

but again, you know, as they grow, then they have, like, for instance, she's still involved, but she doesn't want to be film anymore. She

fair enough.

that's, that's another thing I need to respect as well.

Yeah.

why she's not, you don't see it in videos anymore because it's like,

Right.

fair enough, fair enough. Ooh.

Yeah.

miss it sometimes I'm like, Ooh, can we take a photo so that I can, you know, just, just for myself. 'cause I'm gonna forget what you look like at this age.

Right.

yeah, so

Okay.

but again, you know, when you, they hit the teenage time is different activities that then you'll do with the kids. That don't necessarily involve, you know, the little things you were doing before. And training is still very much one of the things that teenage kids really like as well. 'cause

Yeah,

listens and does stuff and it's pretty cool. You can do tricks as well. Not just, you know, basic things you could do. Agility, the hoopers there is so much,

there is.

that you can really get involved in. Gosh, these days. There is a lot, a lot that dogs are, are learning to do and that we can do in our spare time with our dogs.

Yeah, definitely. How do you handle tricky situations like Resource Garden jumping up or rough play between kids and dogs? Debby,

So

I.

there are such a, a big difference there in, in examples. But I would say again on whenever it's safe, make sure that the kids are involved in the activities that a professional. We'll give you, I would say whenever you have a specific problem with your dog and stuff, go on our website, find your local approved professional. It's really is literally says find your local cat pro. Simply because they, every dog is different.

That's

situation is different. So while some little tips, as, as such, can be kind of generally helpful, it's still always better to have someone there that can. You understand your particular situation but definitely jumping up, for instance, is quite a, a, a big thing with children. A dog, even a little dog, when he jumps to a child or towards a child not only can scare them, but can make them fall over because they're, you know, little for little such. So, again, with a lots of positive training and even scattering some, some trees on the floor, for instance, can distract a dog instead of jumping up,

sad.

ground. So yeah. But I would recommend, especially if you have a resource guarding a dog that is guarding object or himself or or the guardian or someone else in the family or our location is best to call a professional in,

Definitely.

Yeah.

Never, never take, yeah, never take it off the dog. You, you know, and just, you can sometimes do swapsies or whatever, but

yeah.

depends. But yeah, definitely getting a, you know, a card approved professional to help with that. And I think a lot of it as well comes down to control management, doesn't it? It's back to that supervision, but a lot of control management as well.

But also what you just said as well, say that the dog takes I dunno, one of the kids toys, which is so common,

Yeah.

very often the child panics and goes, oh my gosh, that's my toy. You know, a dairy. So it starts. Chasing the dog in the garden or whatever and and only can turn into a really fun game. Not so much fun for mom, but you know, you can turn into a fun game. But what happens as well, the dog comes to understand that this object is quite precious. If you're chasing me, you

Yeah.

I'll

Make a game. Make a game of it.

Yeah. You know, or it could, it could think, oh, this is quite valuable stuff here. Maybe I need to hide it. Maybe I should eat it. Maybe, you know, maybe I'm never gonna give it back to you. You know, that kind of thing. So by swapping or paying the dog, if you like, with some cheese for instance, or some hot dogs, I go tell you what, you gimme back my dinosaur and I'll give you some nice cheddar and

Yeah.

worth it, you know?

Yeah.

yeah. It's there are obviously different activities that can be done and such, but again, when you have a particular issue such as resource guarding, I would definitely, definitely have a professional in.

Yeah, when I used to do training and I used to speak to the pet and human parents,

Yeah.

they had like the children and they had the kids' toys, I say to make sure they, they put 'em away. I said, you shouldn't really have all the kids' toys around because you are, then you wanna be setting these dogs up for success. So don't give them access to it. Get them put away, or have them in the children's room, not where the dog is. Because otherwise, if it's all out, the dog's gonna think that they can play with 'em. So,

And it is

yeah.

isn't it? It

Yeah.

literally like, yeah. Very, very tempting for them to go, this is a funny fluff toy. I like this. You know? And plus it's not like they know, well, I can never touch this kind of thing. It's not, you know, it's not fair to have that a at the same obviously, especially when there is a family with quite a few children is is tricky to have everything, you know, tidy up and

Mm.

It's

Yeah.

Yeah. It does that certainly help to teach your children to tidy up and even from a young age having, maybe it's just the trucks, like toy toy boxes or whatever where they can put their toy. Maybe if you have more than one child, each child could have their own toy box so they know, you know, this is mine, this is where

Mm.

go, and stuff like this. Again, it in a, in an idyllic world, if you like, we would all be super organized and everything goes perfectly

Yeah.

like

Yeah,

like on Pinterest and that, you know, you have that fantasy, oh yeah, I'm that mom. I was never that mom.

yeah,

But try as much as possible. Absolutely. Or

yeah.

it when you

Life is born if everyone's too perfect. Anyway.

Exactly. Dream though, isn't there?

Yeah, it's

Yeah.

Debby, how important is consistency across all adults in the home where it comes to boundaries and management?

It's extremely important to be consistent, and that really works as well, whether you are raising a child, raising a dog, raising both. If you start saying. Oh if we, for example they in our house, for instance, is not to have mobile phones at dinner.

Hmm

the thing.

hmm.

And, and yet we all have them in our pocket. You know, me included, husband, you know, just, it's not just the cage, everyone. But when it comes down, we go, no, no, no. There is, there is no, and you need to keep doing it. If you start going, oh, it's fine, I'll just have it for tonight. Is why would, yeah, why is it okay tonight And it's not okay tomorrow?

Yeah.

know, that kind of thing. And the same goes for the dogs. So say, since I was thinking about dinner say that you have some food at the table and it's some leftover for instance. you go, wow, we know we don't feed the dogs from the table. That's

Mm.

rule in every house, isn't it? And yet you go, oh, well this steak is not finished. You

I mean, I I, I'm not being funny. If it was steak in my house, it would definitely be finished. There won't be any left.

Oh, that's funny. Okay, let's talk about bit of pizza then.

Pizza would be gone as well. They could have some, they could have some carrots. Yeah, they could have,

go. Some leftover carrots and cauliflower.

yeah.

But

No, you, you've gotta be consistent Is with like, with all training, isn't it? Consistency is key.

And also especially with family, when there are kids, remember that what you do as an adult, your children, the children are looking at you.

Mm.

you just to use this phi on the table, if you tell the kids, don't feed the dog off the table. And then how there he go, you, do it. Sorry, you do it. The child will go, oh, if you do it, so can I. You know what I mean? And then maybe five minutes later he'll do it. And to be fair, the kid can turn on and go, but you just did it and. There is no come back to that is there they are. Right. You just be mindful of what you do. 'cause they're always watching. Even when you're not. They're like, they're like, you know, the government, they're like, be brother. They

Yeah. Yeah.

I know what you've done.

Yeah.

you know that?

Good practice what you preach.

exactly.

Brilliant. So moving on to our next section, which is all about helping nervous dogs or anxious children. So you also help, we've touched on this before, you also help children who are afraid of dogs. Can you tell us a bit more about how that, that side of your, how, how that side works?

Yeah, so the, the, as I mentioned before, so I created this protocol for the kids. One is 10 sessions.

Mm

Uh, there are seven sessions that are online, generally online,

mm.

we teach children about dogs. And we also use cognitive behavioural techniques,

Mm

by giving children every week a little task or a game to do. though the tasks are related to help the children to get closer to dogs, to have a more understanding and start building the bridge that at the moment is shattered between the child and the dog. So we are building it so that they can. Kind of have a communication with dogs and understand them as well. And then three sessions are face-to-face. That's when we will also bring our own dog. Normally on the very first face-to-face session, you kind of concentrate on the dog that you have with you.

mm.

So my case, for instance, would be my gold retriever, Winnie,

Hmm.

of just work around there, as in, we know, we discuss and we get her assistance to help us. Maybe asking the dog, would you like to walk? Sorry, asking the child would you like to help me to walk my dog with me? You know, things like this. And then the other sessions, while the dog, your dog will still be with you. So my Winnie will still come with us. We are actually looking at the world around us, so other dogs as well and discuss other dogs. This is because while, you know, while hopefully they'll see Winnie again around and everything. The world is not made of just Winnies, but there are many other dogs. And then the parents who are always, always with us they can see what to do when we are not around. How is it, how does the, a walk in a park or by the beach or whether, how does it work? What do we talk about with the kids? How can we help the children to look at other dogs without thinking oh my gosh, the dog is gonna chase me. I'm scared of the dog. But looking at the dog thinking, oh, the dog is doing this because, or maybe that dog is scratching himself because the children are screaming next to them. Oh, the dog is doing, is doing a massive poo. 'cause everyone like, loves to talk about Poh children especially.

Yeah.

you know, all those things. Why is that dog barking? Because there is a reason so. with when you are out and about, when you, you have the real life or the face-to-face sessions, you concentrate on looking at the planet as such. But we don't dive in on face-to-face things without having done a, a list of six sessions online so that we can really build that child, the knowledge that they will have the, with the tasks and the activity they do during the week. They really build that bridge. And that's why Kendall all really comes together nicely because of, yeah, because of everything kind of makes sense together,

Mm.

if that makes

Yeah. No, that's good. Yeah. Brilliant. Thank you. What kind of support do you offer when it's the other way around? So, a dog is nervous around children, even in their own home.

Yeah.

I

so if generally happens that the dog might be nervous in their own home either because they might have rescued a dog without really having much of a background Background given wasn't quite, the correct one.

which happens often.

often, so often, especially when it's a bit of a blind adoption, as in the dog, the dog maybe have come from abroad or the rescue center accelerate the process because they're desperate. There are so many, you know, dogs that don't have a home. So they're kind of, you know, rescue centers are getting a bit desperate on my gosh, we need, we need families. And sometimes they rush the process, which they should have already happens. So what happens then? The dog comes into the home and there are the kids and they go, what are those? Then I, I dunno how to handle this. And so things you know, get tricky for the dog or even with the puppies brought in the ham and everything is fine at first. And then. Oh my gosh, these kids are not, do not leave me alone for a minute. So the dog, while he could have everything, could have been all right is been way too much. And so the dog is kind of trying to find ways to escape, the kids. And for now, so the parents are also been trying for a long time and they could so in, in this case, again, my first you know, my first thing would say, please call your local professional. Because again, you know, you need to see the individual. So it's not you know, any dog is the same. That's, that's not a thing. So we need to see, you know, who this dog is, what's going on, what is he actually doing and, and so on. Also, what kind of, what kind of lifestyle you have. Do you have a household with 12 children or do you have a household with just one? You know, it's, it's very, very different. So the professional will be able to help you, you know, specifically general level though again, try to get the children involved, but in a. Quieter way again, get them involved with training get them involved with helping with feeding the dog, but safely. So, so for instance, they could prepare the food in the, in the bowl or in different enrichment toys or activities. And then if they're too little, maybe it's the parents that deliver the actual food, but the fact that the kids are prepared, their scent will still be around the food, around the boat or whatever it is that they use. So the dog will know, oh, actually it's the kid who already has been. You know, help him with this. So maybe it's not too bad, you know? There is something else that I love and is free work.

Yes.

this is something that Sarah Fish has, has created, and so they, and the kids can totally get involved with this. You have different items either around the house, in the garden, whatever, and hide treat or put them in in different places so that then the dog goes out and find these these treat, in that environment or in that kind of, exercise if you like. The dog should be naked. So it's, it's got freedom to move there. The kids are completely encouraged to come up with a little obstacle if you like course, if you like, where those items will be there. They put the treats, they choose which tree to put out, you know, also, so literally there is the, the child sent is everywhere on there, then off you go, release the beast. And they go and find, you know, these bits of stuff, they're free to move. However they please, they're free to go wherever they want. So there is no you know, stopping the dog from making its own choice as such. And the kids can kind of, you know, sit back and go, oh, I've make this all happen. I did this, have eaten. And those, you know, those bits of cheese in there have, and the hotdog there. I've spread some peanut butter on the bit

Hmm.

wall by the, you know, on the side of the garden, whatever. Obviously again, parent supervision please. But how many, we've done it loads and lots of times as well in the house and kind of commenting, oh look, she's not finding the be cheese. Oh yeah, she did. Of course she did. Yeah. like this. But that is, for instance, it's a great activity again, where the kids are really involved. So their scent is there, their participation is there, but in a positive, calming way. And the dog will then also learn actually. The kid is not too bad. You know, he's done all this for me. He's sitting there nicely watching me. I know it's there. I can smell it, I can see it and everything. And but we are, we're having a good time together. He's not chasing me. He's not pulling my tail ever. It's it's fantastic. And so with, with time you know, all these positive associations effectively will help the dog to appreciate the child and will also teach the child to be, you know, better effectively to have more respect for the dog. So it's a win-win all around, really.

Yeah, definitely. Brilliant. Brilliant. So how can families rebuild trust if something's gone wrong in the past? Debby.

This is is always so difficult, isn't it?

Hmm.

it can effectively create like a, for a form of trauma you know, within the family. And obviously it depends as well on the level of, of you know, the gravity of the, of the problem. But again, you know, it's something that you build slowly and with time. And I do believe in the positive associations of things as well. So, it easy. Don't. Don't feel bad for needing the time that you need, first of all try to remember that while at the end of the day, either the dog or the the child were to blame for something. Giving also, you know, putting a blame on that doesn't help really. It's not solving the situation, but education. So educating the child to understand dogs can go a massive, really, like a really long way and work towards the dog to help him to understand our house, our, our way of living, our technologies and everything can again, really go a long way. So it is a process, you know, things like this do take time just as they do when pe like people

Mm.

isn't it? It's kind of the

Yeah.

Yeah, it, I would say is with time patient and again, understanding of each other, I think we, we really can can go a long way like that.

Brilliant. Thank you Debby. So, moving on to our final section, which is all about final thoughts and some advice for families. So Debby, if you could wave a magic wand, you'll suddenly and Harry Potter, and you could give every family with a dog one piece of knowledge, what would it be?

that's a difficult question, isn't it?

Oh,

It's only

no, I know. Or, or a couple of things. One, one or two pieces of knowledge.

Two a hundred. So again, the fir the first thing I have to go back to that supervision, the active supervision.

Yeah.

Because really, if you are actively supervising, if you're there, if you're watching, if participating, you can, you know, you can see when things are going a bit out of hand, whether the child gets too excited, the dog that says, you know, that kind of thing. So that is definitely got to be the most important thing.

Yeah.

I couldn't do that without mentioning the body language again,

Yeah.

knowing, yeah, knowing what you are looking for

Mm.

know that the dog is not enjoying it,

Yeah.

the, you know, the child's going over the top or the dog is getting too excited. Things can be easily misunderstood. So

Yeah.

knowing the body language is, yeah,

Yeah.

really important that I'm gonna stick to those two

No, that's fine. And I love how with supervision that you've tagged on active in front of it, because that's so important. Because I think, obviously, you know, obviously I don't have children, but we're all guilty of being engrossed and getting lost in our phones. And you may think that you, you are watching, but it's like you say, it's active supervision, so it's not having those added distractions and you are actually watching what you're doing. And then, yeah, coming back to, I, I just, I think it's so important that every dog owner dog, parent, children that got dogs pet professionals should learn more about canine body. It's how they communicate to us and each other. And there's so much you can learn from that, you know, on how they're, how they're trying to tell us how they're feeling. What would you say to a parent who feels like things are getting tense before between their child and dog, Debby?

What would they say to a parent, did

Yeah. What would you say to a parent who feels things are getting a little tense between their child and their dog?

So I would say, you know, take a minute because again, not everything is, you know, can, can go perfectly well. We do all other moments and dogs are certainly entitled to have their own moments too. So just separate them for a bit. Stay with the kids. Explain why dogs, you know, sometimes don't just enjoy certain activities. It depends on what was happening

Mm

uh, on that as well. Maybe keep track of what, what's been happening before

mm Like a diary.

what's happening. Like a diary. Yeah. What's happening there? 'cause maybe. There is a certain activity that the dog just doesn't like. And every time that that activity comes up, the dog goes, Ooh, don't like this. It could even be like, say they're playing a video game, for instance, and make a certain noise and the dog just doesn't quite like that noise. Or maybe a person screen in a certain way that the dogs doesn't understand and that can worry him. Keep track of things like this and see if there is maybe a pattern. So that activity either could be avoided or simply you go, oh, we are gonna play that video game, or Right. Let's take the dog in another room then so it

Hmm.

see at all, you know, things like this. And again, go back into explaining the kids, educating the child,

Yeah.

you know, what's good and what's not quite so good,

Yeah.

to do around, around dogs.

Good. So just before we finish and I'll get you to tell us where we can find out more about you, but I just wanted to mention on your association KAD and the program with regards to the pre-professionals that most recently there was a restriction where you would only accept them within a five mile radius unless obviously the other KAD professional agreed. But you've now opened it up that anyone can, regardless of where they live, even if you have five KAD professionals in the same area, that now more people can apply. And I think that's such a good move.

It, it, it is. And, but I still keep an eye on things as in you know, the there at the beginning was I don't want 20,000 people or in one area, and there is no one like deserves to there all

That makes sense. Yeah.

yeah. So I still keep an eye on things, but at the same time I like, kind of reducing the area such was creating more problems than not in a, okay, let's, let's open it then. And I, we, you know, we still, when we receive an application, I still, you know, go through it and see where this, what the situation is like. And we do check references, for example, to make sure that that person know, is they say they is, are effectively we want force free professionals only.

Yeah.

and someone, if someone is not force free, just so they know, they're not gonna say, oh, we hate you by, but, you know, I would of guide them towards, oh, why don't you look into these methods rather than not, so at this time we can't accept your application because your method or not don't follow.

Yeah.

hopefully things will change for you and, you know, follow this and that. And people have come back having found their way. So it's really, it's really nice actually, because I think also more people in our industries have awfully realizing forest free is better than punishing your dog. I mean, sounds obvious, isn't it, when you think about it that way,

I know.

it

I know.

So it's, it is nice when when some people realize, oh, actually I could do it in a different way.

Yeah.

yeah.

Good, Debby. I also just wanna quickly touch on that you are now a published author.

Oh my

Your book is out. It started with a sit. Yours is behind you. Mine's behind me. And the next time I saw See You, I forgot to bring it to Winchester last year. And I'm gonna get you to sign my copy so when I know I'm seeing you this year, I'll be bringing it with me. But just quickly tell our listeners all about your book and how that came about and and is there any more on the horizon?

Ooh, Woohoo. So that's really the first. So I've you know, that's something that not many people know, but I always wanted to write a book. You know, there was always, even as a, as a kid, my, I remember my dad got me my first computer and you know, I would start stories and stuff. A funny thing is that I, I read a book at school and I copied a part of, you know, that book 'cause I wanted to have it, you know, we didn't have phones back then to take a photo. So I just literally copied what that book said. 'cause I really liked the photographer. And one day my dad was using the computer, which was obviously the only computer in the house. And he came across that file. I read the paragraph went, oh my goodness. The, my, my full name is Debra, so I went, Debra, this is fantastic. And I went, oh my God. You like when you, when I broke, wait, which one is it? It was that one. No, I didn't write that one. So when elses work.

Oh.

all my orders were weren't as good unfortunately. But yeah, so that's a little funny. Things that come back to mind. And so yeah, I've always, you know, I've always wanted to write a book and and obviously the, the, the topic of kids and dogs is a passion of mine. I, but at the same time, I didn't want to write that book that just says, oh, this is what you do, you know, from A to Z kind of thing.

Mm.

wanted the. To be relatable to parents. So it started with a set. It is effectively my journey how from before having Molly and adopting our first dog pixel to the preschool years with Molly. So it's almost like a memoir, but at the same time, after each chapter, there is the, the help, the professional help for anyone who's going through that particular phase of life with their kids. And while you can read it as a story, because it, it is, you know, does take you through my journey effectively. The same time say that you have a particular problem, you can just kind of skip to that and look at the pink area of the, of the book. Those are the the training and behavioural explanation on that particular of life that

mm.

be going through.

Yeah.

so yeah, so that, that was, you know. I finally had in my hand, I quite couldn't quite

Proud payment.

excited. Yeah.

Yeah.

and I have been slowly writing the second book

I, I am told it can take a while, like people I've spoken to, so, yeah.

And this one as well. Yeah, this, this second one is taking a, a bit longer than than expected, but simply because just life got a a bit busier. But the second one is on school age of the kids. So again, a very different age when they're babies or toddlers, you know. And this is also, I think, is particularly important to me because this is, the age range includes the age range, where statistically more children are you know, being bitten by dogs.

Mm,

very, very important phase of life so that we could prevent you know, these kind of problems from happening in the future.

how excited. Well, I look forward to hearing more about that and then me seeing you again to get my coffee signed.

Oh

Debby, this episode has been jam packed. So just to finish, where can people find out more about kids Around Dogs and the support you offer, please?

So we are practically everywhere, but is kids around dogs.co uk. We are on Insta, Facebook LinkedIn, X TikTok everywhere is basically KAD kids around dogs.

Yeah,

but if you are in doubt, you can call Nathan because he's a caliber professional. And we are also on Yappily and you

Yes

affiliated with Yappily, so

You are.

find us through them as well. But yeah, feel free to get in touch whether you are looking for help from a professional or maybe you are a professional yourself and you are you know, interested in, in joining us and joining the family

Perfect. Debby Lucken, founder of KAD Kids Around Dogs. Thank you so much for joining me on the Yappy Hour powered by Yappily today. I've absolutely loved this episode and this conversation with you, and I could talk to you all day. And do you know how fond I am of you as a person? I love what you're doing.

am of you.

Yeah. I love what you're doing with KAD, so thank you for joining me, and we will see you again soon.

Brilliant. Thank you so much for having me. So lovely chatting to you all the time, so thank you.

Oh, you are most welcome. I.

That was such an empowering and insightful conversation with Debby Lockin. Here are just a few of the key takeaways from today's episode. Number one, education is everything. Helping children and adults understand dog body language reduces risk and helps build trust. Number two. Dogs are allowed boundaries. Respectful interaction is more important than cuddles or cute Instagram moments. Number three, environment and routine matter. Safe spaces, consistent rules and supportive routines are key to a peaceful home. Number four. Support exists for both kids and dogs. Whether you are managing fear, behaviour, or prevention, kids around Dogs has your back. Debby, thank you so much for the important work you do and for joining us on the yappy hour. To everyone listening, you can find out more about Debby's work@kidsarounddogs.co uk or follow her on social media. For brilliant bite-size advice. If you enjoyed this episode, don't forget to subscribe. Leave a review and share it with parents or guardians in your life, and I'll see you next time.