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One of the things I love about thinking about

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how Jesus views me and his

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children is the posture that he has.

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What's the posture? Is the posture one of, "I

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love you. I gave myself for you.

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I provided a way of salvation."

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Revelation 3:20, "I stand at the door and

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knock anybody. If anyone will open the door, I

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will come in to him and

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sup with him and he with me."

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It's an open invitation. It's one of

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fellowship and joy. It's not this angry God

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model that sometimes I think when we get in

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the assurance of salvation questions or

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communion anxiety, we're looking at it more

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not from that perspective of

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that invitation from Jesus.

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Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord

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will be saved. And so that brings it back to

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something objective, like, "Okay, do I

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maintain this confession and stick to it?" And

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that is something that

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can be taken to the bank.

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So, Verlon, you've been a pastor at my church

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for many years, and Marlin, you're the

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director here at Anabaptist Perspectives.

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We wanted to do a roundtable discussion on

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communion and some of the unique things, I

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guess you could say, that come from our

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churches and our culture and what that

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experience is like for our people and some of

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the challenges, opportunities, and other

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things that go with that topic.

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It's a big topic. I'm sure there's many things

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we won't cover, but we want to hit at least a

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couple key points and hear

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from both of you in this episode.

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So let's start broad and say why are we even

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having this conversation? Why does this matter

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to us? And then also in that, lay some of the

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framework and groundwork for where we're going

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to go in this episode.

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I think it matters because there's a lot of us

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in our circle of churches where communion

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brings a lot of anxiety, and I'm sure it does

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in many different church settings.

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But there's some particular things I think for

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us as Anabaptists, and I've watched that

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personally with people.

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Communion would bring up questions of

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assurance of salvation, and somebody says, "I

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don't think I can go on to

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communion because I don't feel right."

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Or communion would bring up questions about

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relationships and what's going on in the

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church, and I can't feel

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comfortable moving ahead with communion.

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So I've watched those up close,

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been involved with some of those.

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Verlaine, over the last number of years,

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you've hit some of these topics around

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communion and assurance and how

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to look at it in sermons and so on.

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So just, yeah, I'm excited

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to discuss some of this more.

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Yeah, I would agree with that. In my

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experience, early on when I was a pastor, I

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discovered that there were people who really

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struggled with assurance of salvation.

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And it was kind of a year-round thing, but

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when you got to communion, that was when it

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really got highlighted.

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And it was something I care deeply about

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because I believe that walking with Jesus is

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something that's positive and joy-filled.

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There's trouble, there's conviction, there's

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things you deal with. It's not like it's a

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perfect walk, but there is this thing of...

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The main tenor of it ought to be one of joy

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and peace and of something

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positive that's happening.

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And so when I see people struggling with that,

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my heart goes out to them because what they're

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experiencing is very real,

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but often there are ways that that can be

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answered and help bring them to a better

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settled place where they

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have that internal peace.

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So that's one of the motivations for me over

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many years is I care deeply about that.

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I want people to be able to

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experience what Jesus has to offer.

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And one of the things I'd like to say is that

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the communion is very important.

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We ought to have a high view of it.

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And so the things that we talk about, in no

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way do they minimize that.

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They're coming alongside

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that, I hope, and helping to...

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How do we think about it well?

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How do we think about what it really means to

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follow Jesus with a

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brotherhood in the context of communion?

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So there's probably people listening that may

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not fully understand how the Anabaptists have

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traditionally done communion.

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We have a wide range of listeners.

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So I think it'd be helpful to start with that

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and also explain maybe how these Anabaptist

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approaches to communion

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do sometimes bring up these questions in ways

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that maybe wouldn't be as familiar in other

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denominations or other church backgrounds.

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Yeah, start us off with that.

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So from fairly early on, communion became a

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once or twice a year event to be prepared for.

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And so one of those pieces of preparation as

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we know it is what we call council meeting.

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And it's in that spirit of examine yourself

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before communion, and that

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happens in different ways.

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So for our congregation here, we would ask

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everyone to share publicly, talk about your

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walk with God and express a

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desire to go along with communion.

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In other circles, individuals may go and give

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an expression to the ministers in private or

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something like that as

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part of the council meeting.

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But it always does serve

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as kind of this check-in.

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If you haven't talked about it before, you're

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at least going to say something here.

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And this has not been the case,

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you know, to the same extent here.

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But I remember in my childhood, council

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meeting was also really a check-in like, okay,

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how do people feel about church relationships

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and policies and all of that?

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So this is kind of a big

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bundle that you're describing.

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Yeah, and it varies at different places. But

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when I was young, it seemed almost routine

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that communion would be delayed because an

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issue would be brought up.

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That might need a couple more weeks to work

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through. You didn't even set a firm date for

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communion until after council meeting.

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And so it's bringing together both that kind

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of personal examination, but then also, okay,

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are we getting along? Are we in

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agreement with what we're doing?

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All of those can

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understandably bring a lot of angst there.

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Yeah, maybe you'd like to

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fill that out a little bit.

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No, that's very accurate. That's very good.

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I think that a couple of pieces that come

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along with that is, if you want to just go to

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the short version of it, what people would be

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expected to say was, do

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you have peace with God?

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Do you have peace with your brothers and

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sisters? And are you in agreement with the

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church? You're willing to take communion with

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the church and you want to do that.

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So that's kind of the simple thing boiled

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down. And so, yeah, that brings up a lot of

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questions of what do I

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really think? Are things okay?

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And then you pull in the verses of, you should

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examine yourself so that you don't eat and

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drink unworthily, eat and

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drink damnation to yourself.

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And there's this very high view, very serious,

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where it really matters. And so the way you

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answer those three simple questions, it's not

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like you can do that just tritely.

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And I think that view is largely where a lot

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of the anxiety has come from.

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Now, I think we should be clear that all of

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those are legitimate

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questions. Are we right with the Lord?

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We should be asking that. Are we right with

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the brotherhood? We should be

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asking that. Those things matter.

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So I think we need to think about them in a

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healthy way, however. Communion does not need

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to be a debilitating time.

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And I guess that's where the conversation is

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going. But I think these biblical things,

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we're right to engage in

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them. We should just do it well.

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Yeah, because what we're saying is we don't

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think it's necessarily a good idea that it'd

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be so full of anxiety approaching this.

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Is that a right way of saying it? Like where

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people can say, "Ah, this feels almost scary."

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It's a whole mixture of feelings.

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It doesn't have to be full of anxiety.

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Yeah. Maybe that, yeah.

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It doesn't need to be.

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Yeah. All I was just thinking is I hope that

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we can maybe reframe it,

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how to deal with the anxiety.

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I have come to appreciate that classic

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statement. I have peace with God and man. I

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have peace with God and my fellow man.

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There's a lot.

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That's summed up in there.

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But one thing, you can idealize peace to where

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it becomes peace with God, but it becomes

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sometimes more about my own maybe

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psychological unrest or something.

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It's not actually my relationship with God.

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It's my conflict within myself sometimes.

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So how can we approach that?

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And then the peace.

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Scripture says be at peace with everyone as

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much as it lies in you, as

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much as it's in your court.

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Jesus said, "If you're going to the temple and

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you realize your brother has something against

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you, leave your gift at the

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altar and take care of it."

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So I see that as very important.

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And again, it's not that all your

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relationships are necessarily equally

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comfortable, but actual grievances, actual

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offenses are dealt with

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as well as they can be.

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Couldn't some of it also be, well, how do you

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decide if you're at peace?

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And maybe that's getting into some of the

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assurance of salvation questions.

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Boy, I could imagine

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that being a bit difficult.

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That could be anxiety-inducing.

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It's like, am I actually at peace?

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Well, yeah, I think so. And well, but really,

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maybe if I really think

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really well, maybe I'm not.

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And then you can start going down

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that spiral a little bit, right?

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I mean, sometimes you need an outside

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perspective and you hope you have a friend or

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mentor that can help you

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weigh some of those things.

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Tying into that just a little bit, there's

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when we deal with these issues of assurance of

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salvation, there's often a flavor of

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perfection that we're demanding of ourselves.

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And having a high ideal is good. We ought to

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strive to be like Jesus. We ought to try to be

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obedient and to walk with Him well.

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But the truth is that we're in a fallen world

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and the Lord is in the process of redeeming us

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and life is imperfect.

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One of the things that I have found helpful

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that I think and we can talk about this more

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is, you know, life isn't perfect.

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Relationships aren't perfect.

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But God is always faithful. And it's one of

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the ways that while we strive for a high

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ideal, we can't do it unreasonably and beat

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ourselves up to the

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point that we can't function.

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We repent. We go back to

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Jesus. We walk with Him.

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So you're getting right into that next

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question of, you know, what are those key

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truths we should be keeping in mind for

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approaching communion with joy and celebration

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versus anxiety, maybe stress, you know, some

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of these other words that we've been using.

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What are those key truths?

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So I have a number of them that I think about.

278

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One of them is, and this goes a little bit

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into the assurance of salvation.

280

00:12:43,846 --> 00:12:46,140

And so I can't go very deep into that one

281

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right now that we don't have

282

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enough time for a lot of that.

283

00:12:48,934 --> 00:12:54,273

But 1st John 5:13, we have a verse there that

284

00:12:54,273 --> 00:12:57,109

says, it tells us that God wants us to, He

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says, "I've written these things that you may

286

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know that you have life

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and that when you believe."

288

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He makes it very clear that that's what God

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wants us to have. He wants

290

00:13:06,952 --> 00:13:08,204

us to be able to know that.

291

00:13:08,204 --> 00:13:10,498

We don't have to live with the question of

292

00:13:10,498 --> 00:13:11,957

whether or not we're saved.

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And then if you go into that broader study, I

294

00:13:14,919 --> 00:13:17,963

love the book of 1st John for a study of the

295

00:13:17,963 --> 00:13:18,923

assurance of salvation.

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He talks about different things that are

297

00:13:21,133 --> 00:13:23,219

described, but we can know that we are right

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with the Lord, the witness of the Spirit, the

299

00:13:25,387 --> 00:13:26,430

witness of obedience, the

300

00:13:26,430 --> 00:13:26,972

witness of brotherly love.

301

00:13:28,015 --> 00:13:32,019

Those are all present there where we can know

302

00:13:32,019 --> 00:13:33,979

those are evidences in our life, maybe

303

00:13:33,979 --> 00:13:36,023

imperfect, but that's where our heart is.

304

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That's what we want.

305

00:13:36,857 --> 00:13:37,942

That's what we're striving for.

306

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And so just coming back to God wants us to

307

00:13:40,819 --> 00:13:42,530

know. He doesn't want us to live in that state

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00:13:42,530 --> 00:13:45,574

of unrest and fear. He wants us to know.

309

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One of the things I love about thinking about

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how Jesus views me and His

311

00:13:52,957 --> 00:13:55,668

children is the posture that He has.

312

00:13:56,168 --> 00:13:59,213

What's the posture? Is the posture one of, "I

313

00:13:59,213 --> 00:14:04,176

love you. I gave myself for you. I provided a

314

00:14:04,176 --> 00:14:08,222

way of salvation." Revelation 3:20, "I stand

315

00:14:08,222 --> 00:14:09,682

at the door and knock anybody.

316

00:14:10,516 --> 00:14:12,685

If anyone will open the door, I will come in

317

00:14:12,685 --> 00:14:14,895

to Him and sup with Him and He with me."

318

00:14:15,020 --> 00:14:16,397

It's an open invitation.

319

00:14:16,647 --> 00:14:18,983

It's one of fellowship and joy.

320

00:14:19,024 --> 00:14:23,737

It's not this angry God model that sometimes I

321

00:14:23,737 --> 00:14:25,197

think when we get in the assurance of

322

00:14:25,197 --> 00:14:28,867

salvation questions or communion anxiety,

323

00:14:29,868 --> 00:14:32,079

we're looking at it more not from that

324

00:14:32,079 --> 00:14:34,415

perspective of that invitation from Jesus.

325

00:14:35,374 --> 00:14:39,962

I go back to the scene at the night of Jesus'

326

00:14:39,962 --> 00:14:41,755

betrayal and arrest when He

327

00:14:41,755 --> 00:14:43,048

instituted the Lord's Supper.

328

00:14:44,758 --> 00:14:47,720

My understanding is that the language He used,

329

00:14:47,720 --> 00:14:49,763

the wording that He used when He held out the

330

00:14:49,763 --> 00:14:52,683

cup and talked about the bread, they were

331

00:14:52,683 --> 00:14:54,059

hearing bridegroom talk.

332

00:14:55,352 --> 00:14:58,063

They were hearing similar words to what a

333

00:14:58,063 --> 00:15:01,275

bridegroom would say in that culture of when,

334

00:15:01,692 --> 00:15:04,903

through the betrothal process—I don't

335

00:15:04,903 --> 00:15:06,864

remember all the details exactly—but there

336

00:15:06,864 --> 00:15:09,116

was a point in sealing that commitment of a

337

00:15:09,116 --> 00:15:10,659

bride and a groom and

338

00:15:10,659 --> 00:15:11,994

their commitment to each other

339

00:15:12,786 --> 00:15:16,790

that the Father would pour a cup of wine, He

340

00:15:16,790 --> 00:15:19,293

would give it to the groom, the groom would

341

00:15:19,293 --> 00:15:23,631

take it and offer it to His potential bride,

342

00:15:24,298 --> 00:15:26,759

and He would say, "This cup is the covenant."

343

00:15:28,510 --> 00:15:32,264

And if she accepted it and drank from it, she

344

00:15:32,264 --> 00:15:33,390

now was agreeing to that

345

00:15:33,390 --> 00:15:34,975

covenant, and He too would drink.

346

00:15:36,018 --> 00:15:37,019

My understanding is

347

00:15:37,019 --> 00:15:39,396

that's what Jesus' posture was.

348

00:15:39,938 --> 00:15:41,815

The disciples would have understand Jesus

349

00:15:41,815 --> 00:15:44,401

inviting them into a relationship of

350

00:15:44,401 --> 00:15:47,655

commitment, a relationship of fellowship.

351

00:15:48,280 --> 00:15:51,909

You know, marriages are imperfect, and this

352

00:15:51,909 --> 00:15:55,162

analogy is going to have limitations, but it's

353

00:15:55,162 --> 00:15:56,622

one of the closest human

354

00:15:56,622 --> 00:15:57,998

relationships you can have.

355

00:15:57,998 --> 00:16:00,918

We know marriage is a type of Christ and the

356

00:16:00,918 --> 00:16:02,461

church, and I see that

357

00:16:02,461 --> 00:16:04,755

playing into this discussion.

358

00:16:05,005 --> 00:16:07,883

What's the posture? I see Jesus. It's

359

00:16:07,883 --> 00:16:10,803

inviting. He wants that relationship with His

360

00:16:10,803 --> 00:16:12,638

children. That's close fellowship.

361

00:16:14,014 --> 00:16:18,060

And what I love about that point that I think

362

00:16:18,060 --> 00:16:20,896

is really important is it's this offer

363

00:16:20,896 --> 00:16:23,857

of—okay, we use the word "communion."

364

00:16:24,900 --> 00:16:28,529

We use it for the Lord's Supper. Sometimes we

365

00:16:28,529 --> 00:16:30,280

have it in songs or something, right?

366

00:16:30,280 --> 00:16:31,990

But it's not everyday English for

367

00:16:31,990 --> 00:16:34,993

us anymore, at least not for me.

368

00:16:35,994 --> 00:16:41,125

But it is about relationship, having something

369

00:16:41,125 --> 00:16:45,921

in common, that communion in 1 Corinthians 10

370

00:16:45,921 --> 00:16:52,344

is translating koinónia, which often we put

371

00:16:52,344 --> 00:16:54,638

as—our English Bible will put as fellowship

372

00:16:54,638 --> 00:16:55,973

or sharing or whatever.

373

00:16:57,015 --> 00:17:01,019

So this is Jesus' invitation to communion, to

374

00:17:01,019 --> 00:17:02,771

a relationship with Him.

375

00:17:04,356 --> 00:17:07,651

Jesus is offering the cup.

376

00:17:10,195 --> 00:17:12,531

And so this is approaching

377

00:17:12,531 --> 00:17:14,408

Jesus, and so what is His posture?

378

00:17:15,993 --> 00:17:22,916

And this is just a little parenthetical, but

379

00:17:22,916 --> 00:17:25,377

that moves us outside of just saying, "Well,

380

00:17:25,377 --> 00:17:30,257

this is just a memorial, right? So we're doing

381

00:17:30,257 --> 00:17:31,383

this to remember Jesus."

382

00:17:33,135 --> 00:17:36,096

But it's not just us doing something, right?

383

00:17:36,096 --> 00:17:36,680

It's intended to be

384

00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:39,099

communion or fellowship with Jesus.

385

00:17:40,476 --> 00:17:44,146

And I think that goes back to John 6, so we've

386

00:17:44,146 --> 00:17:45,856

been focusing on that cup.

387

00:17:45,856 --> 00:17:47,566

But if you go to John 6, you have Jesus

388

00:17:47,566 --> 00:17:49,151

talking about "I'm the bread of life."

389

00:17:49,151 --> 00:17:53,989

And that passage fascinates me as well. But

390

00:17:53,989 --> 00:17:57,743

once again, Jesus is telling them, "My words

391

00:17:57,743 --> 00:17:59,495

are spirit and they are life.

392

00:17:59,912 --> 00:18:02,039

And if you come to me and you eat of the bread

393

00:18:02,039 --> 00:18:05,000

of life, you don't hunger again."

394

00:18:05,125 --> 00:18:06,376

It's something that's deeply

395

00:18:06,376 --> 00:18:10,881

satisfying in verse 63 of John 6.

396

00:18:10,881 --> 00:18:12,966

It is the Spirit who gives life, the flesh

397

00:18:12,966 --> 00:18:15,719

profits nothing, the words that I speak to

398

00:18:15,719 --> 00:18:18,430

you, they are spirit and they are life.

399

00:18:18,430 --> 00:18:20,766

And I think that, for me, that's very helpful

400

00:18:20,766 --> 00:18:23,644

in the communion context of thinking about—

401

00:18:23,644 --> 00:18:24,895

and here again, this is one of the places I

402

00:18:24,895 --> 00:18:25,646

don't want to minimize

403

00:18:25,646 --> 00:18:26,980

some of the other emphases.

404

00:18:27,022 --> 00:18:31,276

I want to bring this alongside and say, when

405

00:18:31,276 --> 00:18:34,029

we take communion, we're accepting the cup,

406

00:18:34,905 --> 00:18:36,865

we're saying, "I want the bread of life.

407

00:18:37,366 --> 00:18:41,411

I want what Jesus has to offer in the fullest

408

00:18:41,411 --> 00:18:43,205

way of satisfaction. I don't

409

00:18:43,205 --> 00:18:44,498

ever want to hunger again."

410

00:18:44,957 --> 00:18:46,917

And there's that part of it where we're

411

00:18:46,917 --> 00:18:49,962

entering into communion with Jesus.

412

00:18:50,003 --> 00:18:52,047

In fact, if you go to—this is interesting to

413

00:18:52,047 --> 00:18:56,260

me as well—1 Corinthians 10, just prior to

414

00:18:56,260 --> 00:18:59,513

the instructions in 1 Corinthians 11 on

415

00:18:59,513 --> 00:19:03,725

communion, 1 Corinthians 10, it uses the word

416

00:19:03,725 --> 00:19:05,394

"communion" in a couple different ways.

417

00:19:06,019 --> 00:19:08,021

And as I understand it, it's denoting

418

00:19:08,021 --> 00:19:10,023

fellowship and loyalty.

419

00:19:11,066 --> 00:19:14,111

He talks about it, "Why would you have

420

00:19:14,111 --> 00:19:15,487

communion with devils?" in

421

00:19:15,487 --> 00:19:16,655

talking about idol worship.

422

00:19:17,573 --> 00:19:20,659

And then he also talks about that communion

423

00:19:20,659 --> 00:19:24,246

within the church, which is also talking about

424

00:19:24,246 --> 00:19:26,498

fellowship and loyalty,

425

00:19:26,874 --> 00:19:28,292

Who's my object of worship?

426

00:19:28,792 --> 00:19:30,210

And so that's part of what the communion

427

00:19:30,210 --> 00:19:32,796

service is, I think, biblically from that

428

00:19:32,796 --> 00:19:36,341

text, is it's an act of worship, it's an act

429

00:19:36,341 --> 00:19:38,802

of coming to Jesus and saying, "I want what

430

00:19:38,802 --> 00:19:40,721

you have, and I take these

431

00:19:40,721 --> 00:19:44,975

emblems out of that response to him."

432

00:19:46,101 --> 00:19:50,772

My mind also went to that passage. I want to

433

00:19:50,772 --> 00:19:57,988

bring in this idea of jealousy here, and that

434

00:19:57,988 --> 00:20:02,284

actually should help to reframe why—what the

435

00:20:02,284 --> 00:20:03,994

fear is and what it's not,

436

00:20:03,994 --> 00:20:06,538

like this posture toward Jesus.

437

00:20:07,748 --> 00:20:09,124

There again, we might have to define the word

438

00:20:09,124 --> 00:20:11,501

"jealousy" a little bit, because as I would

439

00:20:11,501 --> 00:20:14,713

use "jealous" now, it's often like, "I'm

440

00:20:14,713 --> 00:20:15,923

jealous of something that

441

00:20:15,923 --> 00:20:18,050

somebody else has, like I'm envious."

442

00:20:19,259 --> 00:20:22,512

But the older meaning and used in the passage

443

00:20:22,512 --> 00:20:23,472

I'm going to read is

444

00:20:23,472 --> 00:20:25,223

jealousy is more like a possession.

445

00:20:26,016 --> 00:20:29,519

God is a jealous God because he wants his

446

00:20:29,519 --> 00:20:30,395

people to be his people

447

00:20:30,395 --> 00:20:32,064

and not idol worshipers.

448

00:20:32,689 --> 00:20:36,151

A husband should be jealous of his wife

449

00:20:36,151 --> 00:20:40,364

because she belongs to me and this is not to

450

00:20:40,364 --> 00:20:41,448

be polluted elsewhere.

451

00:20:42,950 --> 00:20:45,869

So right in that passage that Verlon, you

452

00:20:45,869 --> 00:20:48,914

were referring to, he says, "You cannot drink

453

00:20:48,914 --> 00:20:51,792

the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons. You

454

00:20:51,792 --> 00:20:53,126

cannot partake of the table of

455

00:20:53,126 --> 00:20:54,544

the Lord and the table of demons."

456

00:20:56,046 --> 00:20:59,841

Or do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? So

457

00:20:59,841 --> 00:21:02,386

that's that sense of, yes, Jesus is bidding us

458

00:21:02,386 --> 00:21:07,975

come and don't come insincerely by having

459

00:21:07,975 --> 00:21:10,560

these other loves and

460

00:21:10,560 --> 00:21:13,981

other gods that deny that.

461

00:21:15,273 --> 00:21:18,026

That is really good. Another word that I think

462

00:21:18,026 --> 00:21:19,027

ought to come into play

463

00:21:19,027 --> 00:21:20,112

and that's just identity.

464

00:21:21,321 --> 00:21:23,573

What is our identity? And the communion

465

00:21:23,573 --> 00:21:25,867

service is a part of that. It's a part of us

466

00:21:25,867 --> 00:21:27,202

identifying with the Lord.

467

00:21:28,078 --> 00:21:30,288

In fact, in 1 Corinthians 11, he says, "As oft

468

00:21:30,288 --> 00:21:33,750

as you take it, as oft as you do this, you

469

00:21:33,750 --> 00:21:35,043

show the Lord's death till he come."

470

00:21:35,627 --> 00:21:37,963

There may be different meanings on what's

471

00:21:37,963 --> 00:21:39,715

there, but it's one of the ways that I take it

472

00:21:39,715 --> 00:21:40,757

that I think is a very

473

00:21:40,757 --> 00:21:41,967

plausible understanding is,

474

00:21:42,009 --> 00:21:45,762

I am declaring publicly with my brothers and

475

00:21:45,762 --> 00:21:47,764

sisters, "This is my

476

00:21:47,764 --> 00:21:49,224

identity. This is my allegiance."

477

00:21:49,599 --> 00:21:51,435

And that's what you were talking there,

478

00:21:51,435 --> 00:21:53,020

Marlin, with the jealousy thing.

479

00:21:54,062 --> 00:21:55,564

Kind of like, basically, what

480

00:21:55,564 --> 00:21:56,690

is it that you're worshipping?

481

00:21:57,149 --> 00:21:57,399

Yep.

482

00:21:58,358 --> 00:22:01,737

Like, what's the focus on, right?

483

00:22:05,323 --> 00:22:08,326

So, y'all are giving us some pieces on how do

484

00:22:08,326 --> 00:22:11,621

we approach communion with joy, with

485

00:22:11,621 --> 00:22:14,166

celebration, really, and what is our focus on.

486

00:22:14,499 --> 00:22:17,878

But some of this might be going back to, when

487

00:22:17,878 --> 00:22:20,047

we think of the anxiety part, going back to

488

00:22:20,047 --> 00:22:21,048

some of this language of,

489

00:22:21,715 --> 00:22:24,134

"Be careful you don't partake unworthily," or

490

00:22:24,134 --> 00:22:28,513

this sense of, "Be careful that you don't be

491

00:22:28,513 --> 00:22:29,973

in the wrong posture when you take this."

492

00:22:30,015 --> 00:22:32,517

And I think that can play into some of the

493

00:22:32,517 --> 00:22:34,269

things we've been saying with the anxiety,

494

00:22:35,062 --> 00:22:37,189

communion anxiety phrase we've been using.

495

00:22:37,689 --> 00:22:39,649

Talk to me about that. Can you define that

496

00:22:39,649 --> 00:22:40,692

term, for starters, this

497

00:22:40,692 --> 00:22:42,819

"unworthily partaking"?

498

00:22:42,986 --> 00:22:45,489

Sure. So, before I do that, though, I think

499

00:22:45,489 --> 00:22:48,200

part of the significance of that is there is

500

00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:49,659

very strong warning there.

501

00:22:49,993 --> 00:22:51,787

And we have the wording about eating and

502

00:22:51,787 --> 00:22:53,330

drinking damnation to yourself.

503

00:22:53,330 --> 00:22:55,540

Well, none of us want that. And when somebody

504

00:22:55,540 --> 00:22:56,792

is wrestling with that, that

505

00:22:56,792 --> 00:22:58,502

becomes really big in their mind.

506

00:22:59,002 --> 00:23:01,421

What if I do this in the wrong way? What

507

00:23:01,421 --> 00:23:03,340

if...and the King James

508

00:23:03,340 --> 00:23:05,217

rendering of that is it, "unworthily"?

509

00:23:05,759 --> 00:23:07,719

So, I'd like to approach it from two different

510

00:23:07,719 --> 00:23:10,138

angles. I think they're both fair.

511

00:23:10,514 --> 00:23:13,683

The one is, if we take it just for what the

512

00:23:13,683 --> 00:23:17,771

word says, "unworthily," there is a healthy

513

00:23:17,771 --> 00:23:19,314

way to think about that.

514

00:23:20,315 --> 00:23:22,901

And we'll take a second look

515

00:23:22,901 --> 00:23:23,985

at what that could mean as well.

516

00:23:24,027 --> 00:23:27,239

But if we look at it, this means I have to

517

00:23:27,239 --> 00:23:30,826

come and be worthy somehow of taking

518

00:23:30,826 --> 00:23:32,661

communion, and I can't do that.

519

00:23:33,745 --> 00:23:36,540

If I do that unworthily, I'm putting my soul

520

00:23:36,540 --> 00:23:39,793

at risk. If that's the approach, I think one

521

00:23:39,793 --> 00:23:41,670

of the things we need to think about is that

522

00:23:41,670 --> 00:23:43,380

none of us can come to Jesus

523

00:23:43,380 --> 00:23:45,423

in a totally worthy manner.

524

00:23:46,133 --> 00:23:49,219

We are only worthy because of what Christ has

525

00:23:49,219 --> 00:23:52,097

done for us. And the very service that we're

526

00:23:52,097 --> 00:23:55,934

commemorating is saying, "I trust you, Jesus.

527

00:23:56,309 --> 00:23:59,855

You gave your life. You gave your blood. You

528

00:23:59,855 --> 00:24:02,357

were killed. You were sacrificed

529

00:24:02,357 --> 00:24:05,777

as a means of atonement for me."

530

00:24:06,027 --> 00:24:08,947

What Jesus did, his work on the cross, is

531

00:24:09,614 --> 00:24:12,576

death, burial, resurrection. That's what I'm

532

00:24:12,576 --> 00:24:13,994

identifying in. Outside of

533

00:24:13,994 --> 00:24:15,412

that, I can't come worthily.

534

00:24:16,037 --> 00:24:18,081

And so, for me, it's one of those conflicting

535

00:24:18,081 --> 00:24:19,791

things that, "Yeah, we

536

00:24:19,791 --> 00:24:21,001

don't want to come unworthily."

537

00:24:21,376 --> 00:24:25,422

But when I become too focused on that, I tend

538

00:24:25,422 --> 00:24:27,799

to minimize the sufficiency of Christ's

539

00:24:27,799 --> 00:24:30,635

salvation, and I begin to transfer some things

540

00:24:30,635 --> 00:24:32,137

I shouldn't onto myself.

541

00:24:33,013 --> 00:24:36,016

Now, if there's things that of where I ought

542

00:24:36,016 --> 00:24:38,560

to be, where I'm in sin, I need conviction,

543

00:24:39,102 --> 00:24:40,187

absolutely, I need to

544

00:24:40,187 --> 00:24:43,231

repent. That's very clear.

545

00:24:44,024 --> 00:24:47,068

But in that unworthily sense that we often

546

00:24:47,068 --> 00:24:50,363

hear it and think about it, I would just say,

547

00:24:50,363 --> 00:24:52,449

"We've got to go back to Jesus. He's the only

548

00:24:52,449 --> 00:24:53,992

reason I can come in the first place."

549

00:24:54,034 --> 00:24:57,245

And so, aligning myself with Christ, once

550

00:24:57,245 --> 00:24:59,998

again, it's going to be imperfect, but God is

551

00:24:59,998 --> 00:25:02,292

faithful. He promises to forgive. We keep

552

00:25:02,292 --> 00:25:04,586

saying, "Yes, to Jesus. We're following Him."

553

00:25:05,045 --> 00:25:08,173

And when we're doing that, that is worthily.

554

00:25:09,341 --> 00:25:11,051

The second way that I think can be very

555

00:25:11,051 --> 00:25:14,054

helpful to think about it, and some other

556

00:25:14,054 --> 00:25:18,892

translations would give the meaning that we

557

00:25:18,892 --> 00:25:20,685

come in an unworthy manner.

558

00:25:22,103 --> 00:25:24,314

Rather than just saying, "Coming unworthily,"

559

00:25:24,314 --> 00:25:25,774

we come in an unworthy manner.

560

00:25:26,316 --> 00:25:28,944

And the context of that, I think, fits well

561

00:25:28,944 --> 00:25:30,654

with the rest of 1 Corinthians 11.

562

00:25:31,112 --> 00:25:32,906

You think about what He's instructing them,

563

00:25:32,906 --> 00:25:34,574

and He's warning them about,

564

00:25:35,075 --> 00:25:36,868

they're taking communion selfishly.

565

00:25:37,202 --> 00:25:39,037

There you're saying some of you are drunk and

566

00:25:39,037 --> 00:25:39,579

some of you are

567

00:25:39,579 --> 00:25:41,122

overeating. You're making a feast.

568

00:25:41,581 --> 00:25:44,417

You have brothers who don't have enough.

569

00:25:44,626 --> 00:25:45,961

You're not sharing with them.

570

00:25:46,002 --> 00:25:48,463

And you have this picture of a very

571

00:25:48,463 --> 00:25:51,758

dysfunctional, supposedly communion service,

572

00:25:52,259 --> 00:25:55,387

and He's reprimanding them for that.

573

00:25:56,012 --> 00:25:57,722

And I think that's one of the other ways of

574

00:25:57,722 --> 00:26:01,685

understanding from the context that you don't

575

00:26:01,685 --> 00:26:03,853

come in a manner that dishonors God.

576

00:26:04,604 --> 00:26:07,941

You come caring about what the real purpose of

577

00:26:07,941 --> 00:26:10,193

the communion service is to commemorate Jesus'

578

00:26:10,443 --> 00:26:12,779

death, His sacrifice, and

579

00:26:12,779 --> 00:26:13,738

you care about your brothers.

580

00:26:14,990 --> 00:26:17,575

I see that tenor coming through as well, and I

581

00:26:17,575 --> 00:26:19,744

would welcome you all's feedback on that, but

582

00:26:19,744 --> 00:26:20,954

that's my understanding.

583

00:26:20,954 --> 00:26:22,497

That is also a plausible way

584

00:26:22,497 --> 00:26:23,957

of looking at the unworthily.

585

00:26:24,416 --> 00:26:28,044

So if that is correct, then we should do all

586

00:26:28,044 --> 00:26:29,337

things decently and in order,

587

00:26:30,338 --> 00:26:31,840

including our communion service.

588

00:26:33,049 --> 00:26:36,344

We don't do any disgrace to the broken body

589

00:26:36,344 --> 00:26:37,345

and blood of our Lord.

590

00:26:38,305 --> 00:26:41,933

We come soberly honoring Him and

591

00:26:41,933 --> 00:26:43,518

honoring our brothers as we come.

592

00:26:44,519 --> 00:26:46,771

Well, I mean I'm completely convinced of the

593

00:26:46,771 --> 00:26:50,775

second interpretation there, and I think I've

594

00:26:50,775 --> 00:26:53,987

made that point at various places.

595

00:26:54,029 --> 00:26:57,073

I might like to say just a little bit about

596

00:26:57,073 --> 00:27:04,205

that and then circle in how that really does

597

00:27:04,205 --> 00:27:09,544

show why our Anabaptist emphasis on peace

598

00:27:09,544 --> 00:27:11,713

within the church is

599

00:27:11,713 --> 00:27:14,591

very fitting for communion.

600

00:27:16,009 --> 00:27:19,471

So like the basic flow of the second part of 1

601

00:27:19,471 --> 00:27:23,641

Corinthians 11 when he addresses this, he

602

00:27:23,641 --> 00:27:25,935

says, "Look, you're coming together, you're

603

00:27:25,935 --> 00:27:27,937

gathering, not for the better but for the

604

00:27:27,937 --> 00:27:33,151

worse, and you're not

605

00:27:33,151 --> 00:27:34,652

coming to eat the Lord's supper."

606

00:27:36,196 --> 00:27:37,155

Why is it not the Lord's

607

00:27:37,155 --> 00:27:38,990

supper or the Lord's feast?

608

00:27:39,991 --> 00:27:41,701

Because each of you are eating your own feast

609

00:27:41,701 --> 00:27:43,745

and some people are going

610

00:27:43,745 --> 00:27:45,288

hungry and others are getting drunk.

611

00:27:46,081 --> 00:27:50,377

In other words, this is not the Lord's table.

612

00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:53,797

It's this group over there and this group over

613

00:27:53,797 --> 00:27:57,050

there all in factions.

614

00:27:59,135 --> 00:28:02,555

And he goes so far as to say, "You despise the

615

00:28:02,555 --> 00:28:03,723

church of God and shame

616

00:28:03,723 --> 00:28:04,766

those who have nothing."

617

00:28:06,101 --> 00:28:10,355

So like this disgrace is in a

618

00:28:10,355 --> 00:28:13,858

sense social, larger ramifications.

619

00:28:15,151 --> 00:28:16,820

And then he goes right in and says, "Look,

620

00:28:16,820 --> 00:28:19,447

this is what communion is. It's thr night

621

00:28:19,447 --> 00:28:22,117

Jesus' betrayed. This is my body. This is my

622

00:28:22,117 --> 00:28:25,328

blood. This is the new covenant. You're

623

00:28:25,328 --> 00:28:25,995

proclaiming the Lord's death."

624

00:28:26,037 --> 00:28:28,289

Like I said, it's absolutely serious.

625

00:28:30,166 --> 00:28:32,919

And then that's where you get, okay, because

626

00:28:32,919 --> 00:28:37,424

of this, because of all the realities here, to

627

00:28:37,424 --> 00:28:41,010

eat or drink this cup in an unworthy way is to

628

00:28:41,010 --> 00:28:42,679

be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

629

00:28:43,096 --> 00:28:46,141

Examine yourself or else you're doing judgment

630

00:28:46,141 --> 00:28:47,100

to yourself because you

631

00:28:47,100 --> 00:28:48,435

don't recognize the body.

632

00:28:49,018 --> 00:28:52,397

And he says, "Some of you are weak, sick. Some

633

00:28:52,397 --> 00:28:56,276

of you have died. We should examine ourselves

634

00:28:56,276 --> 00:28:57,777

that when we're judged, we won't be condemned

635

00:28:57,777 --> 00:28:58,695

along with the world."

636

00:28:59,988 --> 00:29:03,241

And then wraps it up and says, "So, practical

637

00:29:03,241 --> 00:29:07,162

upshot, when you get together, if you're

638

00:29:07,162 --> 00:29:11,124

hungry, eat first so that you can wait for one

639

00:29:11,124 --> 00:29:12,542

another to share the meal together."

640

00:29:13,001 --> 00:29:16,129

So I think there's a huge thing in there about

641

00:29:16,129 --> 00:29:19,340

the recognition of the body. There's one Lord.

642

00:29:21,634 --> 00:29:26,848

And so there's one. Back to chapter 10. He

643

00:29:26,848 --> 00:29:27,724

says, "Because there's one

644

00:29:27,724 --> 00:29:28,766

bread, there's one body."

645

00:29:30,143 --> 00:29:32,604

So in other words, this dimension among the

646

00:29:32,604 --> 00:29:34,689

people is created because there's one Lord,

647

00:29:36,107 --> 00:29:37,233

which is to create this

648

00:29:37,233 --> 00:29:41,738

brotherhood and this body.

649

00:29:43,573 --> 00:29:45,241

So I don't think that recognizing the body

650

00:29:45,241 --> 00:29:48,870

there is talking about transubstantiation, as

651

00:29:48,870 --> 00:29:49,996

our Catholic friends say.

652

00:29:50,038 --> 00:29:52,582

I think it's actually speaking about

653

00:29:52,582 --> 00:29:55,168

recognizing this body that's created because

654

00:29:55,168 --> 00:29:59,506

we are different people, but we have one Lord,

655

00:29:59,506 --> 00:30:01,508

and that creates a unity that creates

656

00:30:01,508 --> 00:30:02,884

obligations to each other.

657

00:30:03,885 --> 00:30:05,220

Before we go on, can you define

658

00:30:05,220 --> 00:30:08,473

transubstantiation for – yeah, just so

659

00:30:08,473 --> 00:30:09,349

that's clear for those listening?

660

00:30:10,016 --> 00:30:13,436

I don't know if this will capture the nuances

661

00:30:13,436 --> 00:30:16,439

enough to be acceptable to our Catholic

662

00:30:16,439 --> 00:30:19,526

friends or not, but in my mind, just the idea

663

00:30:19,526 --> 00:30:27,075

that the substance of the bread and of the cup

664

00:30:27,075 --> 00:30:29,702

becomes literally the

665

00:30:29,702 --> 00:30:32,747

physical body and blood of Christ.

666

00:30:33,998 --> 00:30:39,712

That insistence on a literalness there.

667

00:30:40,463 --> 00:30:43,591

So what you were describing instead, just a

668

00:30:43,591 --> 00:30:47,428

moment ago, was it's the body of Christ coming

669

00:30:47,428 --> 00:30:52,976

together in all of us as people, individual

670

00:30:52,976 --> 00:30:55,144

people, etc., coming together, and that's

671

00:30:55,144 --> 00:30:58,982

becoming, in a way, an expression of the body of Christ right there.

672

00:30:59,023 --> 00:31:02,193

Is that kind of what you were getting at, or

673

00:31:02,193 --> 00:31:03,528

I'm making sure I'm tracking correctly.

674

00:31:03,528 --> 00:31:06,322

Yes, and it's a body created by a common Lord.

675

00:31:07,323 --> 00:31:08,449

So if you're talking about the horizontal and

676

00:31:08,449 --> 00:31:09,033

the vertical, the

677

00:31:09,033 --> 00:31:10,660

vertical creates the horizontal.

678

00:31:13,496 --> 00:31:14,956

I'd like to go a couple places with that. One

679

00:31:14,956 --> 00:31:17,792

is just a very practical story.

680

00:31:18,001 --> 00:31:21,921

A number of months ago, I was visiting another

681

00:31:21,921 --> 00:31:27,677

congregation, and before the service, one of

682

00:31:27,677 --> 00:31:29,304

the pastors came up and asked me about

683

00:31:29,304 --> 00:31:31,889

participating in the Lord's Supper. It would

684

00:31:31,889 --> 00:31:32,765

be later in the service.

685

00:31:34,517 --> 00:31:39,439

And then a different pastor was there

686

00:31:39,439 --> 00:31:43,735

preaching, and he was handling a passage in a

687

00:31:43,735 --> 00:31:44,986

very different way than I would.

688

00:31:45,987 --> 00:31:47,113

And I was getting kind of

689

00:31:47,113 --> 00:31:49,240

worked up about this in my mind.

690

00:31:50,450 --> 00:31:54,579

And then I remembered, and it kind of gives me

691

00:31:54,579 --> 00:31:56,164

this jolt, you know, okay, you're going to

692

00:31:56,164 --> 00:31:57,332

take communion with this person.

693

00:31:59,042 --> 00:32:02,337

And so that should affect the attitude there.

694

00:32:04,547 --> 00:32:04,964

And it did.

695

00:32:06,007 --> 00:32:09,594

And then after the service and in the

696

00:32:09,594 --> 00:32:11,804

fellowship meal afterward, you know, we talked

697

00:32:11,804 --> 00:32:14,223

about not all those points. We talked about a few

698

00:32:14,223 --> 00:32:15,683

of those points in a very

699

00:32:15,683 --> 00:32:18,353

brotherly way and so on.

700

00:32:19,354 --> 00:32:20,563

But again, it's that reminder.

701

00:32:23,066 --> 00:32:24,484

The way we treat each other is supposed to be

702

00:32:24,484 --> 00:32:26,986

directly because of this common Lord.

703

00:32:30,031 --> 00:32:31,991

And I'm going to open another can of worms

704

00:32:31,991 --> 00:32:35,703

here and let you guys deal with them.

705

00:32:37,914 --> 00:32:39,957

So like if you compare how, you know, how

706

00:32:39,957 --> 00:32:41,501

Anabaptists think about communion, we do keep

707

00:32:41,501 --> 00:32:43,294

that strong horizontal emphasis.

708

00:32:43,294 --> 00:32:45,963

We keep this emphasis, examine yourself. What

709

00:32:45,963 --> 00:32:47,256

are your relationships with other people?

710

00:32:49,092 --> 00:32:53,137

We talk about excommunication, which also

711

00:32:53,137 --> 00:32:53,971

comes up in 1 Corinthians.

712

00:32:55,723 --> 00:32:57,392

You know, Christ is the Passover lamb.

713

00:32:57,892 --> 00:33:00,311

And he says, cleanse the

714

00:33:00,311 --> 00:33:02,146

unleavened bread when there's blatant sin.

715

00:33:05,525 --> 00:33:06,859

So people look on.

716

00:33:08,361 --> 00:33:10,571

Or maybe in our communities and they think

717

00:33:10,571 --> 00:33:13,199

about, well, Anabaptists view

718

00:33:13,199 --> 00:33:14,742

of communion seems to be about.

719

00:33:17,203 --> 00:33:18,913

Okay, let's cleanse the church first.

720

00:33:18,996 --> 00:33:22,333

Who's, back to that unworthily phrase, who's

721

00:33:22,333 --> 00:33:24,419

become worthy or whatever.

722

00:33:25,962 --> 00:33:30,383

And to contrast that with, you know, another

723

00:33:30,383 --> 00:33:34,262

approach, which is other churches may be

724

00:33:34,262 --> 00:33:36,848

perceived as more welcoming, where, you know,

725

00:33:36,848 --> 00:33:39,434

there's not that emphasis as much.

726

00:33:40,601 --> 00:33:41,978

It's just communion is presented.

727

00:33:42,729 --> 00:33:43,354

You're asked to come

728

00:33:43,354 --> 00:33:44,981

forward to receive from the Lord.

729

00:33:46,315 --> 00:33:47,900

And I'm not saying it's necessarily that way.

730

00:33:48,109 --> 00:33:49,861

If you look at the Catholic Church and who's

731

00:33:49,861 --> 00:33:51,362

supposed to take communion, who's not, they

732

00:33:51,362 --> 00:33:54,240

have strict rules there and so on.

733

00:33:55,742 --> 00:33:58,119

But you'll see this contrast presented between

734

00:33:59,287 --> 00:34:01,038

kind of, you know, get your act in order so

735

00:34:01,038 --> 00:34:02,039

you're fit to take communion.

736

00:34:03,458 --> 00:34:05,585

And here's the grace of God

737

00:34:05,585 --> 00:34:07,962

extended to give you healing.

738

00:34:10,006 --> 00:34:12,049

And I am definitely defending, you know, the

739

00:34:12,049 --> 00:34:15,762

basic outlines of our Anabaptist practice and

740

00:34:15,762 --> 00:34:17,054

the importance of these things,

741

00:34:18,347 --> 00:34:20,183

excommunication, brotherhood and so on.

742

00:34:21,225 --> 00:34:25,605

And also wanting to really have and help shape

743

00:34:25,605 --> 00:34:28,399

our paradigms that we convey this, like, the

744

00:34:28,399 --> 00:34:29,984

Lord is offering you the cup, like, take it.

745

00:34:30,985 --> 00:34:35,448

Is there something about our Anabaptist

746

00:34:35,448 --> 00:34:38,576

emphasis on the examine yourself and examine

747

00:34:38,576 --> 00:34:42,538

your relationships with others and taking

748

00:34:42,538 --> 00:34:44,999

something like excommunication seriously?

749

00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:50,963

Is there something about that that needs to or

750

00:34:50,963 --> 00:34:52,298

that keeps us from seeing

751

00:34:52,298 --> 00:34:52,965

communion as an invitation?

752

00:34:54,967 --> 00:34:58,346

So possibly, I was actually, something I was

753

00:34:58,346 --> 00:34:59,055

thinking about, I think

754

00:34:59,055 --> 00:35:00,223

may be part of the answer.

755

00:35:02,850 --> 00:35:05,937

One of the things that I have felt from some

756

00:35:05,937 --> 00:35:11,359

of the focus on communion and only having it

757

00:35:11,359 --> 00:35:14,487

two times a year is that whenever you get to

758

00:35:14,487 --> 00:35:16,739

communion time, now, am

759

00:35:16,739 --> 00:35:17,657

I right with the church?

760

00:35:18,074 --> 00:35:18,991

Am I right with the Lord?

761

00:35:19,325 --> 00:35:19,992

That's when it comes into focus.

762

00:35:21,994 --> 00:35:24,831

The thing I would like to promote is that

763

00:35:24,831 --> 00:35:26,874

following Jesus and being right with the

764

00:35:26,874 --> 00:35:28,668

church is not a twice a year event.

765

00:35:30,253 --> 00:35:35,424

It's 365 days a year. And so this is year

766

00:35:35,424 --> 00:35:37,552

long. I should be caring about how am I

767

00:35:37,552 --> 00:35:38,636

relating to my brother?

768

00:35:38,636 --> 00:35:39,887

What's my walk with the Lord?

769

00:35:40,638 --> 00:35:43,266

It ought to be a daily walk with him. I ought

770

00:35:43,266 --> 00:35:45,768

to always be current. If there's issues with

771

00:35:45,768 --> 00:35:47,979

the church, I would idealize that

772

00:35:47,979 --> 00:35:49,647

they come up way before communion.

773

00:35:50,356 --> 00:35:52,650

They come up whenever they come up. So

774

00:35:52,650 --> 00:35:55,236

whenever there's an issue that you address it.

775

00:35:55,862 --> 00:36:00,825

And I think that that is that posture of I

776

00:36:00,825 --> 00:36:02,201

want to always be right.

777

00:36:02,994 --> 00:36:05,371

Now I get to communion. It's like, what do I

778

00:36:05,371 --> 00:36:06,956

have to take care of? I already took care of

779

00:36:06,956 --> 00:36:09,458

it because I'm staying

780

00:36:09,458 --> 00:36:09,959

current with everything.

781

00:36:11,002 --> 00:36:13,129

So going back to some of the early

782

00:36:13,129 --> 00:36:15,381

conversation we had about anxiety. For me,

783

00:36:15,381 --> 00:36:18,259

that's a big anxiety reliever is I stay

784

00:36:18,259 --> 00:36:20,011

current within my walk with the Lord in my

785

00:36:20,011 --> 00:36:21,012

relationships with other

786

00:36:21,012 --> 00:36:23,514

people, not only at communion.

787

00:36:24,140 --> 00:36:27,310

So when you do that, then excommunication or

788

00:36:27,310 --> 00:36:29,228

relationship problems or

789

00:36:29,228 --> 00:36:31,981

spiritual problems, those all matter.

790

00:36:32,023 --> 00:36:36,694

I'm not saying we shouldn't do those things or

791

00:36:36,694 --> 00:36:38,613

care about them. I'm just saying I think we

792

00:36:38,613 --> 00:36:39,780

should always care about them.

793

00:36:40,698 --> 00:36:42,366

I don't know if that answers your question,

794

00:36:42,366 --> 00:36:45,119

but for me that's part of the answer.

795

00:36:46,913 --> 00:36:48,247

I'd be curious to hear you

796

00:36:48,247 --> 00:36:48,998

answer your own question.

797

00:36:50,625 --> 00:36:53,920

Well, I think for me it comes back to some of

798

00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:55,087

the things we talked about earlier.

799

00:36:56,839 --> 00:37:01,302

This is scary because God is a jealous God. He

800

00:37:01,302 --> 00:37:05,181

wants us. He wants our loyalty. He doesn't

801

00:37:05,181 --> 00:37:07,308

want that divided out.

802

00:37:08,017 --> 00:37:14,607

And so it's, in a sense, God being possessive

803

00:37:14,607 --> 00:37:17,401

of us rather than God demanding the

804

00:37:17,401 --> 00:37:20,988

perfection. He's demanding us.

805

00:37:22,782 --> 00:37:26,953

I see the warnings as more warnings against

806

00:37:26,953 --> 00:37:30,581

playing games or dishonoring rather than these

807

00:37:30,581 --> 00:37:34,877

warnings of – it's not like, "No, I don't

808

00:37:34,877 --> 00:37:36,379

measure up so I shouldn't take communion."

809

00:37:38,339 --> 00:37:43,427

It's more like, "Am I willing to stop playing

810

00:37:43,427 --> 00:37:45,721

games and deal with the games that I've been

811

00:37:45,721 --> 00:37:49,517

playing that might block it?"

812

00:37:50,142 --> 00:37:54,522

Or, "Am I willing to deal with actual things

813

00:37:54,522 --> 00:37:59,527

where I'm wronging or mistreating other people

814

00:38:00,486 --> 00:38:02,488

in order to come there with honor?"

815

00:38:04,907 --> 00:38:08,536

And to me that shift, to me that difference in

816

00:38:08,536 --> 00:38:11,247

mindset, I think is significant.

817

00:38:12,581 --> 00:38:14,625

It's a little easier to answer the question

818

00:38:14,625 --> 00:38:18,546

whether there's a game I'm playing that I need

819

00:38:18,546 --> 00:38:19,839

to quit playing than it is

820

00:38:19,839 --> 00:38:22,717

whether I meet some particular standard.

821

00:38:24,260 --> 00:38:25,761

I see what you're saying there. Yeah.

822

00:38:28,139 --> 00:38:31,600

Intention and motive seem to be at play there

823

00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:34,520

as well, like you're describing. Is that

824

00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:37,315

another way of – or another possible angle?

825

00:38:38,524 --> 00:38:42,445

I mean, it's okay to come desperate, right? We

826

00:38:42,445 --> 00:38:45,406

are desperate. We need something. What's not

827

00:38:45,406 --> 00:38:47,742

okay is to come presumptuous

828

00:38:48,784 --> 00:38:49,994

or mocking God or whatever.

829

00:38:51,704 --> 00:38:53,706

And again, if you are keeping current with

830

00:38:53,706 --> 00:38:55,416

things that come up, like you said, that

831

00:38:55,416 --> 00:38:58,878

addresses a lot of that.

832

00:38:59,920 --> 00:39:01,005

We're dealing with it. We're

833

00:39:01,005 --> 00:39:02,882

keeping an open relationship.

834

00:39:04,383 --> 00:39:07,762

I mean, let's just compare

835

00:39:07,762 --> 00:39:10,973

this to a marriage relationship.

836

00:39:13,642 --> 00:39:21,692

Like, I don't have any anxiety that my wife is

837

00:39:21,692 --> 00:39:27,448

about ready to leave me or kick me out of the

838

00:39:27,448 --> 00:39:31,619

house because of this failure

839

00:39:31,619 --> 00:39:35,998

or that failure or whatever.

840

00:39:35,998 --> 00:39:38,292

And that's because I know who she is and I

841

00:39:38,292 --> 00:39:41,712

know something about our relationship. So

842

00:39:41,712 --> 00:39:43,464

there's not anxiety there.

843

00:39:45,591 --> 00:39:49,637

But that is not any kind of grounds for

844

00:39:49,637 --> 00:39:56,560

presumption. Like, there's many things I could

845

00:39:56,560 --> 00:40:00,022

do that would be just totally an insult to the

846

00:40:00,022 --> 00:40:02,691

relationship does that mean the relationship's

847

00:40:02,691 --> 00:40:03,609

over, not necessarily.

848

00:40:03,984 --> 00:40:07,696

But you can't be presumptuous coming in there

849

00:40:07,696 --> 00:40:12,118

openly flirting with other loves and so on.

850

00:40:12,952 --> 00:40:14,995

And I guess my point is those are things you

851

00:40:14,995 --> 00:40:23,754

can identify and that just feels to me in a

852

00:40:23,754 --> 00:40:29,552

different category or approach than am I the

853

00:40:29,552 --> 00:40:31,971

perfect husband, right?

854

00:40:33,013 --> 00:40:37,726

Like, I know that my acceptance does not

855

00:40:37,726 --> 00:40:41,063

depend on me being a perfect husband. I also

856

00:40:41,063 --> 00:40:44,859

know that there's certain actions that if

857

00:40:44,859 --> 00:40:46,819

they're persisted in would basically be

858

00:40:46,819 --> 00:40:48,696

repudiating the marriage, right?

859

00:40:49,780 --> 00:40:50,698

That, again, that

860

00:40:50,698 --> 00:40:52,992

jealousy would come into play.

861

00:40:56,912 --> 00:41:01,417

So for me, thinking about peace with God, so

862

00:41:01,417 --> 00:41:05,462

we should always be striving for growth, but

863

00:41:05,462 --> 00:41:08,924

it's not the I'm trying to create, you know,

864

00:41:08,924 --> 00:41:10,092

okay, I achieved some level of

865

00:41:10,092 --> 00:41:10,968

perfection so that I'm accepted.

866

00:41:12,428 --> 00:41:15,222

But there is such a thing as, you know,

867

00:41:15,222 --> 00:41:17,016

provoking the Lord to jealousy, and we should

868

00:41:17,016 --> 00:41:19,226

not be presumptuous about how jealous we might

869

00:41:19,226 --> 00:41:21,312

make him before the

870

00:41:21,312 --> 00:41:22,980

repercussions become more serious.

871

00:41:24,773 --> 00:41:28,694

So with all of this conversation, a piece that

872

00:41:28,694 --> 00:41:31,363

comes up, and this might be broadening it out

873

00:41:31,363 --> 00:41:32,990

or taking it a slightly different direction,

874

00:41:32,990 --> 00:41:33,991

but I think it really fits here.

875

00:41:33,991 --> 00:41:37,661

How do we approach this when there's fears

876

00:41:37,661 --> 00:41:40,206

about assurance of salvation, right? Like,

877

00:41:40,206 --> 00:41:42,958

that's a big one. You know, what do we offer

878

00:41:42,958 --> 00:41:44,168

those who are struggling?

879

00:41:44,501 --> 00:41:45,794

How do we think about this?

880

00:41:46,086 --> 00:41:49,632

Like, it seems like this can come up in the

881

00:41:49,632 --> 00:41:52,301

context of this communion anxiety that we're

882

00:41:52,301 --> 00:41:53,761

describing, but it could be broader than that.

883

00:41:55,763 --> 00:41:58,224

How do we even begin to wrestle with that,

884

00:41:59,308 --> 00:42:02,186

especially helping others who may be

885

00:42:02,186 --> 00:42:03,187

struggling with that as well?

886

00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:06,440

I think at a very basic level, we have to

887

00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:10,736

think correctly about what it means to be a

888

00:42:10,736 --> 00:42:13,280

Christian. We think correctly about who God is

889

00:42:13,280 --> 00:42:16,283

and his character and the role that that plays

890

00:42:16,283 --> 00:42:17,993

in our assurance of salvation.

891

00:42:18,035 --> 00:42:21,330

Then we also have to think correctly about

892

00:42:21,330 --> 00:42:26,085

ourselves and our role in that, accepting

893

00:42:26,794 --> 00:42:28,170

Christ's work on the cross.

894

00:42:29,421 --> 00:42:32,174

So the two of them together, when we don't

895

00:42:32,174 --> 00:42:34,260

think about them correctly, that's when we end

896

00:42:34,260 --> 00:42:36,095

up with struggles about

897

00:42:36,095 --> 00:42:37,054

assurance of salvation.

898

00:42:37,304 --> 00:42:40,266

So there's a few things that I think would be

899

00:42:40,266 --> 00:42:41,642

helpful. We mentioned a couple of them

900

00:42:41,642 --> 00:42:43,018

already. Just one of them,

901

00:42:43,018 --> 00:42:43,978

God's posture towards us.

902

00:42:44,019 --> 00:42:48,691

It's one of love. He is a God of love. He's a

903

00:42:48,691 --> 00:42:51,610

God of judgment. But his overriding thing, if

904

00:42:51,610 --> 00:42:54,363

you look at the theme of Scripture, if he was

905

00:42:54,363 --> 00:42:56,490

primarily a God of judgment, the world would

906

00:42:56,490 --> 00:42:57,825

have been gone a long time ago.

907

00:42:58,492 --> 00:43:01,328

But he's a redeeming God, and from the time of

908

00:43:01,328 --> 00:43:05,082

the fall of man, he set things into motion in

909

00:43:05,082 --> 00:43:07,042

the timeline on earth. He already

910

00:43:07,042 --> 00:43:09,962

knew it in eternity. He just is.

911

00:43:11,005 --> 00:43:13,465

So he had all this worked out. But in the

912

00:43:13,465 --> 00:43:17,219

timeline of humanity, he set things in motion.

913

00:43:17,761 --> 00:43:21,807

And for the next 2,000 years, 3,000, 4,000

914

00:43:21,807 --> 00:43:24,893

years, that's what we saw developing in the

915

00:43:24,893 --> 00:43:28,188

Old Testament story, where the

916

00:43:28,188 --> 00:43:28,981

fullness of time Christ came.

917

00:43:29,982 --> 00:43:34,069

When God got everything in the right order

918

00:43:34,069 --> 00:43:35,988

that he wanted, and I could look at that and

919

00:43:35,988 --> 00:43:38,282

say, "God, you sure took a long time. Why in

920

00:43:38,282 --> 00:43:40,034

the world did you spend all that time?"

921

00:43:40,784 --> 00:43:44,121

But God knows what I don't. He knows way more

922

00:43:44,121 --> 00:43:45,914

than what I could ever even think of not

923

00:43:45,914 --> 00:43:48,667

knowing. And so it was the right time. He did

924

00:43:48,667 --> 00:43:50,961

it his way. But God's a redeeming God.

925

00:43:51,003 --> 00:43:54,965

If it was just justice and judgment, we

926

00:43:54,965 --> 00:43:57,259

wouldn't have had to go here. So I see the

927

00:43:57,259 --> 00:43:59,762

theme is, it doesn't minimize that he's a

928

00:43:59,762 --> 00:44:03,766

just, righteous, holy God. He is that. But the

929

00:44:03,766 --> 00:44:04,475

theme is one of

930

00:44:04,475 --> 00:44:06,018

redeeming love. He sent his Son.

931

00:44:06,727 --> 00:44:08,771

And so that posture that we talked about of

932

00:44:08,771 --> 00:44:12,524

him having that invitation to us, that he

933

00:44:12,524 --> 00:44:13,984

wants a restored relationship.

934

00:44:13,984 --> 00:44:17,571

I look at the Garden of Eden and what he

935

00:44:17,571 --> 00:44:19,740

created. I say he created a perfect place for

936

00:44:19,740 --> 00:44:22,785

man. He walked and fellowshiped with man.

937

00:44:23,285 --> 00:44:24,620

That's what he wanted. That's

938

00:44:24,620 --> 00:44:26,205

what he's going to get in the end.

939

00:44:26,747 --> 00:44:28,999

When he's done with his redemption, once

940

00:44:28,999 --> 00:44:31,710

again, humanity, his children will be walking

941

00:44:31,710 --> 00:44:32,753

and fellowshiping and

942

00:44:32,753 --> 00:44:34,963

worshipping him. That's what he wants.

943

00:44:35,005 --> 00:44:38,008

So I think just making that foremost in our

944

00:44:38,008 --> 00:44:41,220

mind that, yes, we have utmost respect. We

945

00:44:41,220 --> 00:44:44,890

have a godly fear. He is an awesome God. We

946

00:44:44,890 --> 00:44:48,811

don't take that tritely, not in any way. But

947

00:44:48,811 --> 00:44:49,895

he's a redeeming Lord.

948

00:44:50,521 --> 00:44:52,731

And that is the story of Scripture. That is

949

00:44:52,731 --> 00:44:55,651

the gospel. That is the good news of why we're

950

00:44:55,651 --> 00:44:58,278

even Christians, of why we have hope for a

951

00:44:58,278 --> 00:45:00,989

resurrection and of being with him.

952

00:45:00,989 --> 00:45:04,910

For me, that's just a baseline. And I would

953

00:45:04,910 --> 00:45:08,288

follow that with saying God is faithful. He is

954

00:45:08,288 --> 00:45:11,125

always faithful. We can always trust him. We

955

00:45:11,125 --> 00:45:12,793

can't always understand him.

956

00:45:13,419 --> 00:45:16,380

But as I said earlier, he knows more than I

957

00:45:16,380 --> 00:45:18,465

do. So even though I think things should

958

00:45:18,465 --> 00:45:21,510

happen differently in my life sometimes, I can

959

00:45:21,510 --> 00:45:21,969

trust him that he knows.

960

00:45:23,011 --> 00:45:26,223

And it fits into his big plan in a way far

961

00:45:26,223 --> 00:45:28,892

better than what I could even imagine. I have

962

00:45:28,892 --> 00:45:32,062

seen that lived in my own life story, where he

963

00:45:32,062 --> 00:45:35,941

did things. I didn't like what he was doing,

964

00:45:35,941 --> 00:45:37,234

but the end result was,

965

00:45:37,484 --> 00:45:39,945

wow, God is an awesome God.

966

00:45:40,654 --> 00:45:42,990

And he truly is worthy. He is faithful.

967

00:45:43,991 --> 00:45:46,827

So along with that faithfulness, I want to

968

00:45:46,827 --> 00:45:48,704

give you an opportunity to respond, Marlin. I

969

00:45:48,704 --> 00:45:51,373

think you're thinking something there. But in

970

00:45:51,373 --> 00:45:55,210

that faithfulness, where is Jesus now? He's at

971

00:45:55,210 --> 00:45:56,003

the right hand of the

972

00:45:56,003 --> 00:45:57,921

Father interceding for us.

973

00:45:59,256 --> 00:46:03,302

He knows he was here on earth. He knows what

974

00:46:03,302 --> 00:46:06,096

we're going through. He knows our struggle. He

975

00:46:06,096 --> 00:46:08,849

encountered them all without sin, which none

976

00:46:08,849 --> 00:46:10,976

of the rest of us do. But he did that.

977

00:46:12,019 --> 00:46:14,313

And so now he's at the right hand of the

978

00:46:14,313 --> 00:46:16,148

Father advocating for us. He's our

979

00:46:16,148 --> 00:46:19,693

intercessor. And once again, we come to the

980

00:46:19,693 --> 00:46:20,736

Lord because of Jesus.

981

00:46:21,069 --> 00:46:23,614

So when I hear words like in Hebrews, where we

982

00:46:23,614 --> 00:46:26,533

come boldly to the throne of grace, it's not

983

00:46:26,533 --> 00:46:28,994

with any arrogance. It's not with any

984

00:46:28,994 --> 00:46:30,537

self-confidence. It's

985

00:46:30,537 --> 00:46:30,996

with Christ's confidence.

986

00:46:31,038 --> 00:46:34,500

I can come boldly because of what happened

987

00:46:34,500 --> 00:46:37,002

when Christ died. And that veil of the temple

988

00:46:37,002 --> 00:46:40,005

that separated the Holy of Holies. This was

989

00:46:40,005 --> 00:46:42,216

the presence of God. No, you don't dare go

990

00:46:42,216 --> 00:46:44,551

there. Only the high priest once a year. That

991

00:46:44,551 --> 00:46:45,969

thing gets ripped from top to bottom.

992

00:46:46,011 --> 00:46:50,641

And we have open access because of Jesus. But

993

00:46:50,641 --> 00:46:54,811

I get no credit for that. So no arrogance, no

994

00:46:54,811 --> 00:46:57,940

self-confidence, Christ's confidence. But I

995

00:46:57,940 --> 00:46:59,733

can come boldly and I can

996

00:46:59,733 --> 00:47:00,984

approach the throne of grace.

997

00:47:01,443 --> 00:47:04,780

Those passages in Hebrews 4 and Hebrews 10

998

00:47:04,780 --> 00:47:07,616

develop that. Just read this

999

00:47:07,616 --> 00:47:08,992

one verse from Hebrews 10:22.

Speaker: 1000

00:47:09,993 --> 00:47:14,414

"Let us draw near with a true heart in full

Speaker: 1001

00:47:14,414 --> 00:47:18,252

assurance of faith." That's what he wants.

Speaker: 1002

00:47:18,502 --> 00:47:20,003

He's telling us to draw near. That's in the

Speaker: 1003

00:47:20,003 --> 00:47:20,754

context. He's talking

Speaker: 1004

00:47:20,754 --> 00:47:22,005

about the veil being torn.

Speaker: 1005

00:47:22,756 --> 00:47:24,800

So when I look at assurance, I'm thinking

Speaker: 1006

00:47:24,800 --> 00:47:28,512

about my relationship to God. I trust Him for

Speaker: 1007

00:47:28,512 --> 00:47:32,224

His work on the cross. I rest in that. And I

Speaker: 1008

00:47:32,224 --> 00:47:33,976

come to Him with that confidence.

Speaker: 1009

00:47:35,852 --> 00:47:37,437

I really like the way you develop that

Speaker: 1010

00:47:37,437 --> 00:47:40,899

framework. Like, this is the heart of God, the

Speaker: 1011

00:47:40,899 --> 00:47:43,277

heart of the Father, the

Speaker: 1012

00:47:43,277 --> 00:47:46,363

heart of Jesus as the intercessor.

Speaker: 1013

00:47:50,075 --> 00:47:52,744

And I kind of want to put the pieces I want

Speaker: 1014

00:47:52,744 --> 00:47:55,372

to put, I want to put inside the way you

Speaker: 1015

00:47:55,372 --> 00:47:56,665

develop that framework of

Speaker: 1016

00:47:56,665 --> 00:47:59,835

how God is looking at us.

Speaker: 1017

00:48:02,254 --> 00:48:06,466

And one is the confession that Jesus is Lord

Speaker: 1018

00:48:08,719 --> 00:48:10,554

is something we can take to the bank.

Speaker: 1019

00:48:11,013 --> 00:48:16,768

You know, our feelings go different ways. But

Speaker: 1020

00:48:16,768 --> 00:48:19,980

just thinking about these things in Romans 10.

Speaker: 1021

00:48:20,731 --> 00:48:23,108

"If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord

Speaker: 1022

00:48:23,108 --> 00:48:26,069

and believe in your heart that God raised Him

Speaker: 1023

00:48:26,069 --> 00:48:28,363

from the dead, you will be saved.

Speaker: 1024

00:48:29,865 --> 00:48:31,325

For with the heart a person believes,

Speaker: 1025

00:48:31,325 --> 00:48:33,160

resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth

Speaker: 1026

00:48:33,160 --> 00:48:35,579

he confesses, resulting in salvation."

Speaker: 1027

00:48:36,246 --> 00:48:38,415

And that's not just confessing sin there. It's

Speaker: 1028

00:48:38,415 --> 00:48:43,420

this declaration. Jesus is Lord. Therefore, of

Speaker: 1029

00:48:43,420 --> 00:48:45,005

course, I'm His servant.

Speaker: 1030

00:48:47,007 --> 00:48:48,258

"Everyone who calls on the

Speaker: 1031

00:48:48,258 --> 00:48:49,801

name of the Lord will be saved."

Speaker: 1032

00:48:51,094 --> 00:48:52,304

And so that brings it back to something

Speaker: 1033

00:48:52,304 --> 00:48:54,973

objective, like, okay, do I maintain this

Speaker: 1034

00:48:54,973 --> 00:48:57,476

confession and stick to it?

Speaker: 1035

00:48:57,476 --> 00:48:59,061

And that is something that

Speaker: 1036

00:48:59,061 --> 00:49:01,313

can be taken to the bank.

Speaker: 1037

00:49:03,357 --> 00:49:05,233

You know, sometimes the way these questions

Speaker: 1038

00:49:05,233 --> 00:49:09,863

are put is, well, do I really

Speaker: 1039

00:49:09,863 --> 00:49:11,657

believe? Do I have the confidence?

Speaker: 1040

00:49:12,074 --> 00:49:14,701

You know, it comes back again to this very

Speaker: 1041

00:49:14,701 --> 00:49:16,912

introspective. And there's

Speaker: 1042

00:49:16,912 --> 00:49:18,413

a point to introspection.

Speaker: 1043

00:49:19,581 --> 00:49:20,499

But I don't know. Think

Speaker: 1044

00:49:20,499 --> 00:49:22,250

about wedding again, I guess.

Speaker: 1045

00:49:24,628 --> 00:49:27,172

Okay, you can maybe have your questions about

Speaker: 1046

00:49:27,172 --> 00:49:29,800

whether you feel like you love this person or

Speaker: 1047

00:49:29,800 --> 00:49:33,845

whatever, but like, you said those vows. We

Speaker: 1048

00:49:33,845 --> 00:49:35,305

heard you, right? You did it.

Speaker: 1049

00:49:36,473 --> 00:49:39,101

And it creates a reality. And there's

Speaker: 1050

00:49:39,101 --> 00:49:42,479

something similar there with that confession

Speaker: 1051

00:49:42,479 --> 00:49:46,233

that, you know, Jesus is

Speaker: 1052

00:49:46,233 --> 00:49:48,985

Lord. And that's loyalty language.

Speaker: 1053

00:49:49,986 --> 00:49:55,075

Yes, there's times when that is insincere and

Speaker: 1054

00:49:55,075 --> 00:49:59,579

it's a, you know, empty words.

Speaker: 1055

00:50:00,956 --> 00:50:03,291

But if it is, that's going to become obvious

Speaker: 1056

00:50:03,291 --> 00:50:08,130

by how you're treating other people, by not

Speaker: 1057

00:50:08,130 --> 00:50:10,966

caring about obedience, whatever, right?

Speaker: 1058

00:50:11,007 --> 00:50:15,887

It's not going to be by, I'm feeling

Speaker: 1059

00:50:15,887 --> 00:50:17,806

distressed today. That's not what means your

Speaker: 1060

00:50:17,806 --> 00:50:19,307

profession was insincere, right?

Speaker: 1061

00:50:19,891 --> 00:50:22,894

If that lordship was insincere or mocking,

Speaker: 1062

00:50:23,145 --> 00:50:27,733

it's going to become obvious by just a

Speaker: 1063

00:50:27,733 --> 00:50:31,862

disregard for how God wants us to live and how

Speaker: 1064

00:50:31,862 --> 00:50:33,989

God wants us to treat other people and so on.

Speaker: 1065

00:50:34,990 --> 00:50:39,327

That sincere confession, you know, I'm the

Speaker: 1066

00:50:39,327 --> 00:50:43,623

servant of God. I'm here to serve Jesus. That

Speaker: 1067

00:50:43,623 --> 00:50:45,375

can be taken to the bank and it's within the

Speaker: 1068

00:50:45,375 --> 00:50:48,295

whole framework of everything you said about

Speaker: 1069

00:50:49,254 --> 00:50:50,797

God's attitude, Jesus'

Speaker: 1070

00:50:51,047 --> 00:50:52,966

ongoing intercession and so on.

Speaker: 1071

00:50:54,009 --> 00:50:58,388

Alongside that, one of the things I have come

Speaker: 1072

00:50:58,388 --> 00:51:01,725

to see with just a little broader scope, you

Speaker: 1073

00:51:01,725 --> 00:51:02,726

know, we all start with our

Speaker: 1074

00:51:02,726 --> 00:51:04,352

experience. That's what we know first.

Speaker: 1075

00:51:05,312 --> 00:51:08,440

So for me as a young man, I had a very, very

Speaker: 1076

00:51:08,440 --> 00:51:10,734

clear point of conversion. I can tell you the

Speaker: 1077

00:51:10,734 --> 00:51:13,570

day. I can take you to the place. I can take

Speaker: 1078

00:51:13,570 --> 00:51:14,988

you to within a few feet of where it happened.

Speaker: 1079

00:51:15,989 --> 00:51:18,992

That's where I met Jesus and my life was

Speaker: 1080

00:51:18,992 --> 00:51:23,038

changed. Very, very clear. So I personally

Speaker: 1081

00:51:23,038 --> 00:51:25,290

have never struggled with the assurance of

Speaker: 1082

00:51:25,290 --> 00:51:27,292

salvation because that was just there.

Speaker: 1083

00:51:27,959 --> 00:51:32,923

I've encountered people who believe, but they

Speaker: 1084

00:51:32,923 --> 00:51:36,343

can't give me a date and time and place. It's

Speaker: 1085

00:51:36,343 --> 00:51:39,179

something that happened more over time. It was

Speaker: 1086

00:51:39,179 --> 00:51:40,972

more of a gradual recognition.

Speaker: 1087

00:51:42,015 --> 00:51:44,684

And so two things, if that's the story of

Speaker: 1088

00:51:44,684 --> 00:51:48,355

people, then I would say two things. One is

Speaker: 1089

00:51:48,355 --> 00:51:52,692

the big question is, do you believe Jesus? Do

Speaker: 1090

00:51:52,692 --> 00:51:53,693

you trust him for

Speaker: 1091

00:51:53,693 --> 00:51:55,654

salvation? That's the question.

Speaker: 1092

00:51:55,862 --> 00:51:57,781

It doesn't matter so much if you have the

Speaker: 1093

00:51:57,781 --> 00:52:00,784

point in time. If a point in time becomes an

Speaker: 1094

00:52:00,784 --> 00:52:02,077

issue to an individual,

Speaker: 1095

00:52:02,661 --> 00:52:03,995

make a point in time right now.

Speaker: 1096

00:52:04,996 --> 00:52:08,917

This is when I will declare, and I might even

Speaker: 1097

00:52:08,917 --> 00:52:11,044

write this down on the cover of my Bible, on

Speaker: 1098

00:52:11,044 --> 00:52:14,047

this day I made that declaration that I do

Speaker: 1099

00:52:14,047 --> 00:52:15,340

believe, I do trust, I

Speaker: 1100

00:52:15,340 --> 00:52:16,383

don't want to have to wonder.

Speaker: 1101

00:52:16,842 --> 00:52:19,803

So for me, the root question is, do you

Speaker: 1102

00:52:19,803 --> 00:52:25,141

believe? And I know we have the nuances of

Speaker: 1103

00:52:25,141 --> 00:52:27,352

people wondering, well, do I really believe? I

Speaker: 1104

00:52:27,352 --> 00:52:29,980

question, is Jesus

Speaker: 1105

00:52:29,980 --> 00:52:31,982

Lord? Is that what you want?

Speaker: 1106

00:52:32,023 --> 00:52:34,776

And I think there is, even in some of those

Speaker: 1107

00:52:34,776 --> 00:52:38,822

struggles, I find that sometimes people with

Speaker: 1108

00:52:38,822 --> 00:52:40,866

the greatest struggle, there's absolutely no

Speaker: 1109

00:52:40,866 --> 00:52:43,326

question that they believe. If they weren't

Speaker: 1110

00:52:43,326 --> 00:52:46,162

believers, they wouldn't care. They care so

Speaker: 1111

00:52:46,162 --> 00:52:48,123

deeply. They're troubled by it.

Speaker: 1112

00:52:49,082 --> 00:52:51,459

That in itself is evidence to me that what's

Speaker: 1113

00:52:51,459 --> 00:52:54,212

inside here, Jesus matters a lot to them.

Speaker: 1114

00:52:54,546 --> 00:52:57,173

Wow, I've never thought of that. That's really

Speaker: 1115

00:52:57,173 --> 00:52:59,676

good. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

Speaker: 1116

00:53:00,010 --> 00:53:04,598

I think what happens sometimes is our, this

Speaker: 1117

00:53:04,598 --> 00:53:06,975

would be another point I'd want to make, is we

Speaker: 1118

00:53:06,975 --> 00:53:10,270

have to recognize our human frailty. God is

Speaker: 1119

00:53:10,270 --> 00:53:12,480

faithful. He is good. Our

Speaker: 1120

00:53:12,480 --> 00:53:14,649

humanity gets in the way sometimes.

Speaker: 1121

00:53:15,025 --> 00:53:19,654

And sometimes there could be mental issues or

Speaker: 1122

00:53:19,654 --> 00:53:22,699

even just wrong thought patterns or unhelpful

Speaker: 1123

00:53:22,699 --> 00:53:25,410

thought patterns that they keep us from

Speaker: 1124

00:53:25,410 --> 00:53:28,705

enjoying that full assurance of salvation that

Speaker: 1125

00:53:28,705 --> 00:53:29,998

the Lord wants us to have.

Speaker: 1126

00:53:30,624 --> 00:53:32,459

I'm just going to say sometimes I think our

Speaker: 1127

00:53:32,459 --> 00:53:36,671

minds trick us. Our ability to think clearly

Speaker: 1128

00:53:36,671 --> 00:53:39,925

about truth is hampered. And it's in those

Speaker: 1129

00:53:39,925 --> 00:53:41,593

moments we have to go to the truth of

Speaker: 1130

00:53:41,593 --> 00:53:42,969

Scripture. Marlin just read some of those.

Speaker: 1131

00:53:43,011 --> 00:53:46,514

You can take it to the bank when God said it.

Speaker: 1132

00:53:46,514 --> 00:53:48,475

That's just the way it is. He's faithful to

Speaker: 1133

00:53:48,475 --> 00:53:50,852

forgive. He's faithful and just to forgive us

Speaker: 1134

00:53:50,852 --> 00:53:52,187

our sins and to cleanse us

Speaker: 1135

00:53:52,187 --> 00:53:53,897

from all unrighteousness.

Speaker: 1136

00:53:54,648 --> 00:53:57,943

And we can come to Him with that assurance.

Speaker: 1137

00:53:57,943 --> 00:54:00,695

He's not the author of confusion. Scripture

Speaker: 1138

00:54:00,695 --> 00:54:01,988

tells us the devil is the one who does that.

Speaker: 1139

00:54:02,030 --> 00:54:06,576

So when another thing I would say to people

Speaker: 1140

00:54:06,576 --> 00:54:08,954

who struggle with assurance is, okay, why do

Speaker: 1141

00:54:08,954 --> 00:54:12,499

you not have it? Is there something specific

Speaker: 1142

00:54:12,499 --> 00:54:13,500

of which you're being

Speaker: 1143

00:54:13,500 --> 00:54:16,294

convicted? If there is, then repent.

Speaker: 1144

00:54:17,545 --> 00:54:19,839

The Scripture gives the solution to that

Speaker: 1145

00:54:19,839 --> 00:54:22,342

problem. If it's just a general sense of

Speaker: 1146

00:54:22,342 --> 00:54:25,303

unrest and I don't really have anything to

Speaker: 1147

00:54:25,303 --> 00:54:26,680

repent of, but I have all

Speaker: 1148

00:54:26,680 --> 00:54:27,973

this question and confusion.

Speaker: 1149

00:54:29,265 --> 00:54:31,476

I am not going to be very quick to put that on

Speaker: 1150

00:54:31,476 --> 00:54:34,270

the Holy Spirit because the Spirit will tell

Speaker: 1151

00:54:34,270 --> 00:54:36,064

us what we need to repent of.

Speaker: 1152

00:54:36,731 --> 00:54:39,734

Those are just a couple of things in the thing

Speaker: 1153

00:54:39,734 --> 00:54:44,155

of the way we think, we have to think well.

Speaker: 1154

00:54:44,990 --> 00:54:46,908

And I would just say that

Speaker: 1155

00:54:46,908 --> 00:54:47,993

our mental health matters.

Speaker: 1156

00:54:49,411 --> 00:54:52,497

When there are things that we can do to help

Speaker: 1157

00:54:52,497 --> 00:54:55,333

our minds be clear, we ought to do that.

Speaker: 1158

00:54:57,168 --> 00:55:01,506

There's a whole, I don't know how far we want

Speaker: 1159

00:55:01,506 --> 00:55:03,466

to go into talking about mental health kinds

Speaker: 1160

00:55:03,466 --> 00:55:06,302

of things, but it is a component we have to

Speaker: 1161

00:55:06,302 --> 00:55:07,971

acknowledge that it's there.

Speaker: 1162

00:55:08,013 --> 00:55:11,016

And we ought to care about taking care of our

Speaker: 1163

00:55:11,016 --> 00:55:14,477

minds and to think well, to cultivate right

Speaker: 1164

00:55:14,477 --> 00:55:16,396

thinking and to allow

Speaker: 1165

00:55:16,396 --> 00:55:17,772

other people to give us input.

Speaker: 1166

00:55:18,189 --> 00:55:19,983

If we're not thinking clearly, we need help.

Speaker: 1167

00:55:20,650 --> 00:55:24,154

Let's get that from Scripture, from the Lord,

Speaker: 1168

00:55:24,154 --> 00:55:26,531

first of all, and let's trust our brothers and

Speaker: 1169

00:55:26,531 --> 00:55:27,657

sisters to walk with us.

Speaker: 1170

00:55:27,991 --> 00:55:31,453

I think it's important that those brothers and

Speaker: 1171

00:55:31,453 --> 00:55:34,164

sisters around us are aware of those human

Speaker: 1172

00:55:34,164 --> 00:55:35,957

limitations that we have.

Speaker: 1173

00:55:38,293 --> 00:55:40,587

This stuff could get kind of messy. Yeah,

Speaker: 1174

00:55:40,962 --> 00:55:42,630

because we are frail humans.

Speaker: 1175

00:55:44,841 --> 00:55:46,801

I don't know, it can be easy to whack someone

Speaker: 1176

00:55:46,801 --> 00:55:50,555

with truth really quickly when maybe there's

Speaker: 1177

00:55:50,555 --> 00:55:51,931

some, like you're saying, some mental

Speaker: 1178

00:55:51,931 --> 00:55:52,640

frameworks and some

Speaker: 1179

00:55:52,640 --> 00:55:54,059

processes that need some work.

Speaker: 1180

00:55:55,393 --> 00:55:56,811

I don't know, it gets complicated. I don't

Speaker: 1181

00:55:56,811 --> 00:55:58,646

know all the answers to these things, of

Speaker: 1182

00:55:58,646 --> 00:56:00,190

course, but that's

Speaker: 1183

00:56:00,190 --> 00:56:01,274

something important to keep in mind.

Speaker: 1184

00:56:02,692 --> 00:56:05,820

I would just say there that along with that

Speaker: 1185

00:56:05,820 --> 00:56:09,908

health, mental health, the

Speaker: 1186

00:56:09,908 --> 00:56:11,785

physical support for that, right?

Speaker: 1187

00:56:12,118 --> 00:56:15,997

But we don't know, we don't understand how

Speaker: 1188

00:56:17,248 --> 00:56:18,833

mind and body work together.

Speaker: 1189

00:56:19,334 --> 00:56:21,377

The brain is part of the body.

Speaker: 1190

00:56:22,420 --> 00:56:24,881

There's all kinds of things that mess with our

Speaker: 1191

00:56:24,881 --> 00:56:27,967

thoughts, even being sleep deprived.

Speaker: 1192

00:56:30,386 --> 00:56:34,974

But even beyond that, nutritional support,

Speaker: 1193

00:56:35,350 --> 00:56:38,978

supplements, even pharmaceuticals.

Speaker: 1194

00:56:39,979 --> 00:56:42,273

Sometimes it raised the question there, but I

Speaker: 1195

00:56:42,273 --> 00:56:45,819

guess in my mind it's – obviously, you don't

Speaker: 1196

00:56:45,819 --> 00:56:50,198

want something that is going to dim your mind

Speaker: 1197

00:56:50,198 --> 00:56:51,658

and make you not care about things, right?

Speaker: 1198

00:56:51,991 --> 00:56:52,742

That's the wrong kind of

Speaker: 1199

00:56:52,742 --> 00:56:53,952

drugs that distract you.

Speaker: 1200

00:56:56,830 --> 00:56:59,999

But sometimes you need physical support to

Speaker: 1201

00:56:59,999 --> 00:57:03,711

think clearly and to affirm the truth.

Speaker: 1202

00:57:05,380 --> 00:57:07,298

So that's just something I think should be

Speaker: 1203

00:57:07,298 --> 00:57:08,716

acknowledged in the discussion.

Speaker: 1204

00:57:11,177 --> 00:57:13,888

Would there be other pieces you all would like

Speaker: 1205

00:57:13,888 --> 00:57:18,393

to add for those who might find themselves in

Speaker: 1206

00:57:18,393 --> 00:57:20,520

a situation where, say, a friend or someone in

Speaker: 1207

00:57:20,520 --> 00:57:21,437

their church is struggling

Speaker: 1208

00:57:21,437 --> 00:57:21,980

with the assurance of salvation.

Speaker: 1209

00:57:21,980 --> 00:57:23,773

Maybe it's coming up to communion

Speaker: 1210

00:57:23,773 --> 00:57:25,650

and they're struggling with this.

Speaker: 1211

00:57:26,985 --> 00:57:29,028

Is there other practical things you'd like to

Speaker: 1212

00:57:29,028 --> 00:57:31,739

add in addition to what you've shared so far?

Speaker: 1213

00:57:33,199 --> 00:57:34,117

Just would point people

Speaker: 1214

00:57:34,117 --> 00:57:35,410

to Jesus and His goodness.

Speaker: 1215

00:57:36,953 --> 00:57:39,038

And I know we've talked about that a lot. For

Speaker: 1216

00:57:39,038 --> 00:57:41,249

me, that's just key. We have to think about

Speaker: 1217

00:57:41,249 --> 00:57:42,000

Jesus in the right way.

Speaker: 1218

00:57:43,001 --> 00:57:46,462

Yes, there's a human response, but outside of

Speaker: 1219

00:57:46,462 --> 00:57:49,716

Christ I'm nothing and I trust Him.

Speaker: 1220

00:57:50,633 --> 00:57:52,594

And it's all any human can do who

Speaker: 1221

00:57:52,594 --> 00:57:53,845

wants to be right with the Lord.

Speaker: 1222

00:57:54,053 --> 00:57:57,599

And so when there's that anxiety, I want to

Speaker: 1223

00:57:57,599 --> 00:58:01,269

have my response to the Lord. He's offered

Speaker: 1224

00:58:01,269 --> 00:58:02,437

everything. He's offered

Speaker: 1225

00:58:03,479 --> 00:58:03,980

more than I could imagine.

Speaker: 1226

00:58:04,022 --> 00:58:07,525

I think it's a really good deal to trade in

Speaker: 1227

00:58:07,525 --> 00:58:11,237

all the troubles of my life and let Jesus be

Speaker: 1228

00:58:11,237 --> 00:58:13,406

boss. He's Lord of my life.

Speaker: 1229

00:58:14,032 --> 00:58:15,909

I think that's a really good deal for what He

Speaker: 1230

00:58:15,909 --> 00:58:18,119

offers for me to walk with

Speaker: 1231

00:58:18,119 --> 00:58:20,330

Him. And I feel so blessed.

Speaker: 1232

00:58:20,330 --> 00:58:21,915

I'd encourage people to just push towards

Speaker: 1233

00:58:21,915 --> 00:58:25,793

that. A phrase that I really like that I think

Speaker: 1234

00:58:25,793 --> 00:58:27,003

should be encouraging for

Speaker: 1235

00:58:27,003 --> 00:58:27,962

anyone who walks with the Lord.

Speaker: 1236

00:58:28,004 --> 00:58:31,633

And that is, we must keep saying yes to Jesus.

Speaker: 1237

00:58:32,508 --> 00:58:33,551

It's appropriate for little

Speaker: 1238

00:58:33,551 --> 00:58:35,428

children in their limited knowledge.

Speaker: 1239

00:58:36,179 --> 00:58:38,598

They can say yes to Jesus at a certain level.

Speaker: 1240

00:58:38,598 --> 00:58:41,059

As we mature, the Lord keeps calling us to

Speaker: 1241

00:58:41,059 --> 00:58:42,810

more. We keep saying yes to Jesus.

Speaker: 1242

00:58:43,228 --> 00:58:46,272

In our older years, we age, our bodies start

Speaker: 1243

00:58:46,272 --> 00:58:48,399

to fail. We keep saying yes

Speaker: 1244

00:58:48,399 --> 00:58:49,984

to Jesus in whatever context.

Speaker: 1245

00:58:51,319 --> 00:58:54,197

Whenever we do that, we have confidence

Speaker: 1246

00:58:54,197 --> 00:58:57,367

because of what Christ did. And we can boldly

Speaker: 1247

00:58:57,367 --> 00:58:58,701

come to the throne of grace.

Speaker: 1248

00:59:00,703 --> 00:59:04,457

Come to Jesus, take the steps that you know

Speaker: 1249

00:59:04,457 --> 00:59:06,668

you want that says, "This is where I'm going."

Speaker: 1250

00:59:07,543 --> 00:59:14,217

Even when it doesn't compute, doesn't feel

Speaker: 1251

00:59:14,217 --> 00:59:16,970

like it in a mental process.

Speaker: 1252

00:59:19,889 --> 00:59:21,766

Encourage to take the steps. Of course, you

Speaker: 1253

00:59:21,766 --> 00:59:25,019

need wisdom about what can you say in a

Speaker: 1254

00:59:25,019 --> 00:59:26,020

particular relationship

Speaker: 1255

00:59:26,020 --> 00:59:28,940

if you are the counselor.

Speaker: 1256

00:59:30,441 --> 00:59:31,609

I don't know. It just depends on the

Speaker: 1257

00:59:31,609 --> 00:59:34,570

relationship. What you can and can't say. You

Speaker: 1258

00:59:34,570 --> 00:59:36,990

can't eliminate struggle.

Speaker: 1259

00:59:38,658 --> 00:59:41,411

We all come through struggles of different

Speaker: 1260

00:59:41,411 --> 00:59:44,580

kinds, but you can be the right presence.

Speaker: 1261

00:59:47,417 --> 00:59:49,585

Sometimes you can be more aggressive than

Speaker: 1262

00:59:49,585 --> 00:59:52,297

other times of what you say to somebody, just

Speaker: 1263

00:59:52,297 --> 00:59:56,801

depending on those dynamics and what the

Speaker: 1264

00:59:56,801 --> 00:59:57,885

Spirit leads you to do.

Speaker: 1265

00:59:57,885 --> 01:00:01,431

Sometimes you've got to be very gentle and can

Speaker: 1266

01:00:01,431 --> 01:00:06,936

only say a few words. Other times, I don't

Speaker: 1267

01:00:06,936 --> 01:00:09,480

know, if it ever gets to the point where you

Speaker: 1268

01:00:09,480 --> 01:00:11,149

should grab them and march them up the aisle

Speaker: 1269

01:00:11,149 --> 01:00:14,027

to the receive communion or not.

Speaker: 1270

01:00:15,236 --> 01:00:17,280

It seems like in some situations, you need to

Speaker: 1271

01:00:17,280 --> 01:00:18,740

be more aggressive than in others. I don't

Speaker: 1272

01:00:18,740 --> 01:00:20,992

know how to find that.

Speaker: 1273

01:00:21,826 --> 01:00:25,913

I think what you're describing is good. A

Speaker: 1274

01:00:25,913 --> 01:00:28,875

couple of things I would say in response to

Speaker: 1275

01:00:28,875 --> 01:00:29,917

that is what people

Speaker: 1276

01:00:29,917 --> 01:00:32,003

experience and think is very real.

Speaker: 1277

01:00:33,212 --> 01:00:37,467

It may not be correct, but it is real to them.

Speaker: 1278

01:00:38,009 --> 01:00:41,054

I think the balance we find there is what they

Speaker: 1279

01:00:41,054 --> 01:00:43,598

find very real doesn't dictate truth.

Speaker: 1280

01:00:44,599 --> 01:00:48,394

The tension that we have is we have truth, we

Speaker: 1281

01:00:48,394 --> 01:00:50,813

have what they're experiencing, and trying to

Speaker: 1282

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find a helpful way to bring those together.

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That's my heart for people who struggle, is

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bringing truth in a helpful way

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to meet those areas of struggle.

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Thank you both for sharing. I think this is a

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very important topic. I think

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01:01:11,417 --> 01:01:13,836

you gave us some good tools.

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01:01:14,962 --> 01:01:17,632

I think you gave some hope to some people that

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are listening as maybe they're approaching

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communion. It is a time of anxiousness.

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01:01:22,887 --> 01:01:28,309

Am I right with God? Questions of assurance. I

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01:01:28,309 --> 01:01:30,520

appreciate what you share with us. I think

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01:01:30,520 --> 01:01:31,521

this is going to help a lot of people.

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01:01:32,980 --> 01:01:34,899

If you found this episode interesting, I think

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01:01:34,899 --> 01:01:36,859

you'll like the interview we did with Dean

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01:01:36,859 --> 01:01:38,653

Taylor on an Anabaptist

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view of the sacraments.

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You can find that linked in the description

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down below. We also did a documentary series

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on the history of the Anabaptist movement.

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That's its own separate channel. You can also

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01:01:49,414 --> 01:01:50,665

find that link. I think you'll

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01:01:50,665 --> 01:01:51,916

find that pretty interesting.

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01:01:52,542 --> 01:01:54,168

Thanks so much for listening, and we'll catch

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01:01:54,168 --> 01:01:55,336

you in the next episode.