Hello, hello, hello.

Hey, John,

How you doing, Brian?

good, good. I got a question to start us off.

Ooh, what do you got?

What'd you want to be when you grew up, when you were a kid,

Oh God. what, what day of the week? When? How old? Uh, no, no idea.

kindergarten, first grade,

Uh, okay. Probably I wanted to be something like podcast host,

I thought you were going to say the Wright brothers or something.

Oh no. Oh, I know. I know what it was. I know exactly what it was. Evil Knievel. I wanted to be Evil Knievel.

Oh my God. Forgot about him. Yeah. He was awesome.

And for anybody out there who doesn't know who Evil Knievel is, he jumped motorcycles over

Everything.

and everything.

Canyons.

Broke most of bones. What a character. So that.

That's a good one. That's good one. I'd like to say that I was a little bit less of a risk taker than that. Although I did want to be an astronaut.

Oh, that's a good one.

that kind of abruptly ended during the challenger, but, I did want to go in space.

It's not too late.

I'm pretty happy on earth now though.

All right. Well, Brian, uh, can I get us started with a conversation that kind of leads into our guest?

Go for it.

Fantastic, okay., December 3rd is the International Day of Persons with Disabilities, which was named by, I believe, the United Nations. And this is a topic that has me interested, because according to the World Bank, people with disabilities are far more likely to experience lower levels of education. worse health, lower levels of employment and higher poverty, which is, which is kind of surprising, in some way when you consider just how large that group of people is. It's a huge, and as a, as a marketer, I refer to it as a marketplace. according to, the CDC, 26 percent of the U. S. population has a disability. Isn't that amazing?

That's that's fascinating.

Yeah. Now, now, 26 percent to 25. 5 percent includes people with cognitive disabilities, so I'm sure that has a pretty big impact on that number. I don't know to what extent, but, that's a quarter of the population. And, and that group represents nearly half a trillion dollars in disposable income, according to the American Institutes for Research. Okay, so that's a lot

yeah.

so, big population. big spending capability. as marketers, I was hoping to talk to you today about some of the ways brands present the concept of disability. sound good to you?

Yeah. Let's do it.

All right, cool. All right. So I automatically go to two ways that can happen. The most visible representation is via advertising. and we'll come back to that. the second is, As a marketer, you're aware, I'm not sure if everybody is, that some of the most successful companies integrate marketing right into how they design products and services in the first place, right? So, in fact, many of our favorite features started as something called inclusive design, which is, in other words, a way to provide more accessibility. In products, so the classic example of inclusive design that people talk about is curb cuts, right? So you get to an intersection instead of stepping down off a curb, there's now this little tiny kind of ramp that cuts into the curb. built as an accessibility feature to enable folks who, you know, have mobility issues to make it safer and easier for them to get, from the street to the curb. If you watch an intersection, everybody uses those. People with strollers, right? People with dogs. Everyone's using those curb cuts. Other examples are, like voice remotes for our TVs. and then there are great examples for the devices we use every single day. Um, I'm always amazed at what Apple does, what Google's doing, even Microsoft. So, Brian, what are some of your, what are some of the tech features that you use day in, day out that, if you think about it, probably started as some sort of inclusive design feature?

Well, the one I go to all the time is, is dark mode on my phone. Um, and even my monitors and computer screens and, you know, I. There was a lot of wear and tear on, um, screens, especially as the pandemic hit and you started working at home with your thousand monitors. And, uh, and so that was kind of my go to thing. That's just kind of made it a lot easier to do work. I felt like a lot less strain, um, and that's kind of been something that's been in devices for a while, uh, clearly for accessibility reasons. But, you know, it's also a feature that people just like to use because they like. To, you know, manage information that way. So,

I suspect you're right. That probably was something that was originally designed to help folks with vision impairment. So great example. I did a little bit of digging around and looked at some recent examples for, brands that were doing really cool things to make their products and services more accessible. One that jumped out to me recently is Walmart. Which, lot of, a lot of people love Walmart, a lot of detractors, but you got to give them credit for this back to school season. They started making shopping in their stores, more inclusive for people who have sensory disabilities, which apparently is a large group of people. So they created a, a less stimulating shopping environment for a couple hours each Saturday. And that means, they turned the TV walls. to static image, they turned off the radio and they lowered the lights wherever they could. So, now, they're bringing back sensory friendly hours from 8 to 10, not just on Saturdays, but every day at all Walmart, stores in the U. S. and Puerto Rico. And I just, you know, right? Round of applause.

yeah,

Yeah. So those sensory disabilities must be pretty pervasive and it's neat to see brands stepping up to that challenge. Another one, I know GM. has an accessibility center of excellence, and they're developing active safety features that help drivers who have low vision or cognitive decline. Put aside whatever your fears are about people with low vision and cognitive decline driving are, but they have a real time text tech for hearing impaired. they're developing seats that have haptic feedback, so if you're not able to hear the audio warning, you still benefit from safety features. and the list. Is kind of going on and on, but those are a couple that kind of just recently, uh, in the news that sparked my attention.

love, I love hearing about this kind of innovation where, there might be, drawing it up for one reason, and then you kind of build off of that and it kind of leads you in a lot of different directions.

Mm hmm.

I think one of the greatest traits you can have as a marketer or communicator is, you know, being able to think outside yourself and who you are and what you need. It's so hard to do that. Um, and you know, I think, a lot of companies and brands have a really difficult time seeing outside of themselves and not everybody is the way that you are. And, the people that take more chances and going outside of that, I think are going to be successful. the other thing to me is, you're talking about a marketplace, but, you know, You think about like when you're running an advertisement and you're trying to reach as many people as possible. usually you speak much more broadly and you do things in much more of a broad way, like what is the, what's the message that could, reach every single person instead of, you know, being very segmented with what that means to each individual group inside of that. And so. It's easy for, I guess people with accessibility issues to be overlooked in, in things like that. So it's good to see some people really step into the table and doing some different things.

Yeah. I kind of like this softer, gentler side of Brian. This is, good insights there, pal.

Great. Great.

Um, so, hey, I would love to transition now to, um, our guest who is, uh, truly is an inspiration and I don't think he minds being that.

No, no, he certainly is.

Before we actually talk to our guest, Brian, I have a question for you. are you a skier?

I am not.

Have you skied?

I've seen people ski on TV.

Okay, well that's relevant to this next conversation. imagine, strapping yourself, uh, to a little plastic chair and then having that chair mounted on top of what is basically like a truck shock absorber spring that's mounted on top of a single ski and then going to the top of a mountain and going down. That's basically the experience of monoskiing.

I can't imagine, I can't imagine being able to do that.

No. It is hard to imagine. It's hard to imagine if you are a skier. It's hard to imagine if, uh, if you've been doing it for a long time, but when you first see someone do it, it is kind of, it is kind of breathtaking. And, very relevant to our guest, Chris Waldo, who I met back in, I, Chris, I think it was 2001, when he was already larger than life to me. he was a legendary wheelchair athlete, the greatest male Paralympic skier in U. S. ski team history then, and I think now still, uh, and had recently been named one of People Magazine's 50 most beautiful people in the world. since then, his legend's only grown kind of larger in my eyes and in the eyes of millions of people. He first made his mark in skiing with 13 Paralympic medals. more than any male monoskier in Paralympic history. he was named to the U. S. Ski and Snowboard Hall of Fame, to the Paralympic Hall of Fame, and was named Skiing Magazine's, one of Skiing Magazine's 25 greatest skiers in North America. But he went on to accomplish a whole lot more than that. He is, an unsung hero of compassion, named by the Dalai Lama himself. He's a broadcast commentator, providing color commentary for NBC's coverage of the Paralympics. He founded the One Revolution Foundation. through which he teaches students of all ages lessons in resilience and self awareness and inclusion. He's a keynote speaker to companies that range from smaller non profits to fortune 500 companies. he was named as giving one of the best graduation speeches, comma, ever by NPR, uh, for his commencement address at his alma mater Middlebury College. And oh yeah, he climbed Mount Kilimanjaro in a hand cycle. I am real honored to welcome, him to Snap Decisions and even more honored to be able to call him a friend. Hello, Chris Waddell.

Hello, John. Well done on that. Thank you. I appreciate it. And, uh, yeah, Dalai Lama. He was a pretty cool man. That was, uh, to be in his presence. That was, that was one of the moments of my life where I was like, Oh, this is what peace and happiness is like. All right. It's cool.

It's a different vibe.

were in like a Corona when you were near him. It was just sort of this, this warm, like circle of light. You're like, wow, good job, man.

Wow. Have you been able to hold on to that, uh, that circle of light ever since?

You know, I mean, once, once you, you kind of feel it once and you kind of, you, you at least have been there. Right. And so it's like, I know when I'm there and I know when I'm not there.

And what year were you able to grace his presence?

was so, so funny enough, he actually came to my college. He came to Middlebury college when I was a student and came into, I remember coming into the dining hall and the Dalai Lama was there. His holiness was there getting orange juice out of the dispenser.

Why not? Right?

Lama drinks orange juice. just like the rest of us, but he actually did a bunch of things. And I went to a meditation that he did on the Sunday morning, which is, which is not necessarily what most college students are doing, but to me, so that's, I didn't meet him there, but then it was 2005 that we did the unsung hero of compassion award, and it was, uh, that was, it was just, it was just sort of mind boggling. I mean, it really was. He said that everything in the world has compassion, except for maybe the mosquito. Uh, so, so I took that to heart

Nice.

So you and the Dalai Lama go way back.

way back. Exactly. Yes. Yeah.

we're real excited to have you on the podcast today. And, you know, I, I spent the last, last few days kind of catching up on some of your work and, and your documentary. I read your book. I saw some videos, and, and your podcast. I'm excited to hopefully learn a little bit from you on what we should be doing.

Teach us.

yes, but,

Teach us. Teach us enlightenment and

You're not asking for much there. Are you?

Not in that order.

Um, but, you know, we want to start off just getting a little bit of background into, you know, your story and your timeline and, um, would love for our listeners to you know, just kind of hear how you got here and, and what you're up to today.

Wow. Um, so yeah, I mean, it's, it's, that's always a question. I had a skiing accident when I was in college. And I had taken off the first semester of school and actually worked at a law firm in New York and thought that, you know, that might be the direction that I was going. I had my accident and suddenly I had a different platform. I actually, the year before my accident, I was at a ski race. At Burke Mountain and I saw this woman, Diana Golden, who is what we call a three tracker. So she is an above the knee amputee, uses two outriggers. And actually at that time, she was using regular ski poles, but I watched her ski and she was the best representation of what it meant to be an athlete and what it meant to be a human being. And I think she planted a seed for me really, in terms of. There were some great racers at that race, but she was the most memorable one. And I think it was more so about the human journey than it was necessarily about what she was doing, skiing, where she was a great skier too. And, I think I saw an opportunity. I mean, where, where you have an accident where you're lying in the hospital, where you basically snapped yourself in half kind of thing. And you think, okay, there's, there are no opportunities having seen her. There really was an opportunity. And, and so instead of going sort of the traditional, you know, professional path, I ended up going in an entirely different direction. Didn't really go to the college counselor or the, uh, the, the, the career counselor, I didn't do any interviews. I was like, no, I'm going to be. A disabled skier was the U S disabled ski ski team. At that time, I'm going to be on the U S disabled ski team. And I think the path was the path was that human path. I think that it was recognizing that when I came back to school, it was incumbent upon me to educate everyone around me. They they hadn't interacted with somebody in a wheelchair. You know, do you need me to push up the hill? Do you need to need me to open the door? Do you need, you know, whatever it is and and everybody was super supportive. But this was a different kind of education that I was allowed to do as an athlete and to make a far greater statement. And in some ways, I feel like. I feel like in some ways I wanted people to see me and to see people like me for the first time and not come in with the same expectation that they had of like, Oh, okay, well, it's, that's too bad. Cause I mean, that to me, our model with one revolution is it's not what happens to you. It's what you do with what happens to you. And it's as appropriate for me as it is for you guys. And, and I think I wanted to. Remember that, that things happen and people surprise you. And when they surprise you, that's the coolest part. I wanted to surprise people. So yeah, so that's where I started competing, Alpine skiing, started wheelchair racing. I started doing that as off season training and it became a second sport. So how did I end up here? That is that is always the question that I'm asking, Brian.

I, one of the things that, that, John and I were talking about earlier is, everybody kind of has this. Outside presence of the things that they've done and, and the collection of highlights and timeline, but it's kind of like, you kind of, there's a stigma applied to that, I think. And, you know, the way that you are focused on being human and the person that you are, it's much. Rounder and bigger than just this collection of things. You're not just like a prop, you know, you're, you're human. And the fact that you've kind of done a lot to focus on, every day and the, the things that you come across and the things that have happened to you and, and how you've attacked those, I think are inspirational to everybody and, uh, and, and helpful to everybody,

and that's the hope. I mean, cause we're all dealing with it in some ways too. Right. As we continue to get older, it's one of those, you go, ah, well, that's a little bit harder now than it used to be, you know, and it's like. Oh, really? Okay. You're totally fine. That's awesome. I was jealous before. Now I'm really jealous.

Chris, you said something a minute ago about when you came back to school after your accident, kind of educating your classmates and friends. I know you still do that. And probably every day, uh, to some extent, does that ever get tiring to you to be the one who's kind of got to educate folks on, how they might want to interact with you and how you might want to, be seen.

I mean, it, it, yeah, it gets tiring at times. I mean, I think that that's, you know, yeah, there are times that we're just going about our lives and, and I don't need to, I don't need to educate every single person I come in contact with or any person who might have seen me. Necessarily, but but certainly like when I was first back at school, it was it was my responsibility in a lot of ways, because because this could. This, this could be something that could make me totally separate, you know? And so, and I think that was the biggest fear was that if, if I left it to assumption that then I'd be the one who'd lose out. And I think that that's some of what I still see every day is if I leave it to assumption. That, you know, cause I get this sometimes I get people who, you know, I had one guy who he asked me for directions and I was giving him directions and, and then he turned to me and said, well, well, is there going to be a cure and I'm like, okay. You know, which, which in some ways I feel like I have to apologize for, for my situation, you know, I think he's trying to be gracious, but, but at the same time, it's one of those that I think that, that there's a part of it. And you know, I think that we're in a society where we're looking for the magic pill, right?

Oh, yeah.

But We're human by definition of our struggle. Really. I mean, the struggle defines who we are and how we deal with that struggle and how we find creative ways of of confronting it and being successful within it and and all of that stuff. And I was getting outta my racing chair one time and this, uh, this woman, I was, I was visiting my parents and I was getting outta the racing chair, and I'd just, you know, gone for a workout along the, along the coast, and this woman's like, oh, I didn't realize you were, you were in a wheelchair, you know? And it totally changed the whole thing. And I was like, yeah, I just. Went for a 12 mile workout kind of thing, you know, it's like, what did you do, you know, I mean, there's, there's a part of it, right. And it's like, it's easy to see nothing, you know, it's easy to see whatever perceived limitations there are versus, yeah, I did a 12 mile workout. It was probably, you know, 48 minutes or whatever, you know, and I think that's the, I mean, you try to get people beyond it. And I think that's one of the challenges for all of us is getting beyond what we think we know. And what's that quote? It's like the definition of an expert is someone who knows more and more about less and less, which is really a definition of growing older. I think too,

when you first got into, competitive disabled skiing, you know, how was your, how were your parents with that? Were they, was it hard to bring them along? Was that an interesting conversation?

I started ski racing at six years old and I did not recognize. how brutal a sport it is for those who are watching, who care about you. And, you know, especially like running downhill or something like that. I mean, it's sort of like, yes, I hope that you're safe. I hope that you're happy with how you've done, you know, I mean, there are all these different levels of like protection that as a parent, you want to be able to provide that you can't. You know, I think my parents were great in that respect of, of being able to shelve their fears. They really did. I did not, I wasn't aware of their fears, but it's hard to watch a ski race when you care about people in the race,

Yeah.

I read somewhere that, that you said you never really, faced your injury head on until, you know, the end of your career, you know, and you became, you know, you went through some depression and, and really going through just understanding that, you know, that part of your life was over. Can you talk a little bit about that?

You know, it was more difficult for me to retire from competitive sport than it was to break my back. My identity was more challenged by retiring. And, and I think there were a couple of things that were involved in that one. It was, it was separation from my, from my youth, from my passion, this thing that I, about which I'd been passionate throughout my life. As surprising as this might sound, it was also the thing that made me unique. It gave me a unique platform to, to know that I had the potential to affect a greater change, gave me a reason to affect a greater change. And, and, and when I retired, I suddenly, you know, became that guy in a wheelchair, but I also became like. regular guy. I mean, I might to your point before I might have a resume that said that on a couple of days I had some pretty good days, but

Understatement. I won a few gold medals here and there in the Olympics. Yeah, go ahead. Sorry.

it was a greater. It was a greater challenge to to move forward after that and go. Okay. What? How am I going to be passionate about something? But also. How am I going to balance my life? One of the things as an athlete, we, we get celebrated for having greater and greater tunnel vision that the world can be going crazy. There's complete chaos going around you. You can, in the face of all this adversity, you can perform. And, and then, you know, I've retired and I kind of went, okay, yeah, that's good. But did I sacrifice other things along the way? Did I sacrifice a potential career? Did I sacrifice a family? Did I sacrifice, you know, financial stability? Uh, you know, some of these other things that, that are sort of that everybody, everybody's. Contemplating and confronting, but that was that I felt like was really challenging and what came out of it was I needed to have a goal that was bigger than me, myself, uh, I might be transitioning you guys more quickly than you, than you like, but that's what, what brought me to Kilimanjaro and to hopefully, you know, being able to shine a light on 1. 2 billion people, 15 percent of the population in the world who are, you know, effectively invisible because from the time we're little, we're taught not to stare at someone who looks different. I want to give them a reason to stare and to see themselves, you know, drop themselves into, I mean, you guys saw, saw our documentary movie. You want to be able to drop yourself into the, into the role of the protagonist and go, we, we climbed up that mountain,

No, you didn't go too far ahead. Perfect transition because as you were talking about, being aware as you retired that you'd had a platform as a professional skier,, can you talk about the decision you made to. attack a mountain,, and, and use that as a platform to, like you said, shine a light on some of the, some of the things that, people ought to be aware of, in terms of people with disabilities.

I went out in the midst of trying to figure out who I was and what I was supposed to do and where I was going. I rode up a mountain bike trail near my house. I had a three wheeled off road hand cycle and rear wheel drive. And so I pedaled up, took me an hour and 10 minutes to get up and I turned around. And I feel like a thought tapped me on the shoulder and it said, you need to climb Mount Kilimanjaro. And it's one of those, I'm sort of turning around and go, where'd this come from? You know, I have no idea. I'd never considered it. And, and, uh, but, but yet the metaphor of climbing a mountain is exactly what we're all doing. Right. And we're all climbing our proverbial mountain. And I thought, okay, well, this makes sense. And in some ways even makes more sense than the Paralympics because the Paralympics is, you know, I'm, I'm one monoskier competing against another monoskier and go, okay, that looks cool. But the vast majority of the people who are watching haven't necessarily skied in a monoski. And they don't necessarily understand the context as much as they do in, okay, here's a man who's trying to confront the largest, tallest mountain in Africa, like, okay, I haven't climbed a mountain, but that sounds hard.

Having watched the documentary, I, I can say it looked hard.

I think three seconds in, I was. I was watching with my daughter. We both, like, our jaws hit the ground. It was like, right away, it speaks to you. And I watched the, uh, I watched the trailer with my son, because he doesn't have the brain attention to watch the entire thing, if anything. But he didn't, too. He was like, I couldn't go more than three feet. But you get it right away in what you're trying to accomplish as you're watching that. And, uh, I also was like, going downhill is so much fun. And going up, like, it's such a different thing. You're going the opposite direction and up a mountain and in the hardest type of experience, that's, uh, that was really compelling to me.

Thank you. The hardest part about being on the mountain was that I was sort of in in active thought the whole time when you do sort of an endurance sport. It's almost like the opposite of REM sleep kind of thing where you're your body's active and your mind has just tuned out and which is great. I mean, that's sort of like being in the zone in a lot of ways climbing the mountain. I was problem solving the whole time like in like 18 inch increments. It seemed like okay, I need to get here to there, to there, to there. And that was the most exhausting part. It really was.

Yeah. So, interesting to hear that it was mentally exhausting on top of obviously being physically exhausting. Um, real quick, I want to make sure that we are clear to folks who are listening. Um, we're referring to, and this isn't just a shameless plug, but maybe it is. Uh, we're referring to the documentary called One Revolution, which is available on Amazon Prime Video. So, uh, in fact, if you're listening. Please watch it. If you don't watch that movie and come away, uh, impressed, awed, inspired, moved in some way, Get in touch with me, and I will, I will Venmo you the 1. 99 rental fee. I mean that. Uh, go watch it. Uh, but anyway, in that documentary, Chris, you know, I think Brian and I were talking, we were both kind of struck by not only the juxtaposition he just spoke of, like, you know, you, you made a, you made a first career hurtling yourself down a mountain, and then this is about going up a mountain as slowly as you possibly can imagine. Um, Yeah. It's interesting. I agree

I was going fast at two and a half miles an hour to give you perspective. That's when I was flying.

Yeah. Yeah. It looked that way. Um, I want to see the documentary of your, your, your dissent. Um,

that was our own, our only, uh, criticism of the documentary is that it would have been great, like the final, you know, two minutes just to watch you continue to go down the Hill. It would have been like, ah, cathartic.

slowed down a whole lot more than you would think. I was at walking pace. So like the top part that you saw at the end of the movie on the screen field, that was fast.

looked to me like the brakes were about to go, like, set aflame just cause you're holding back a lot of inertia there.

I had two disc brakes and actually Dave, who is my guide, put one of them on. So it was, it was on the whole time as I was going down and it turned, it turned black, like the disc brake heated up that much that it turned black, but when we got below Harambeau, then we're on the trail and. I'm just like I'm working hard and I'm problem solving still like okay if I get over there, then I can go down this way and I'm not going to flip over, you know, which is a big concern for me, and, and I was a walking pace these guys are walking behind me having a conversation I'm like, I am still working hard like this is the downhill part this is supposed to be the coast and there was no coasting. It really wasn't.

Well, the thing, one of the things that really struck me watching the documentary, there was conversation about how people were coming down the mountain, meeting your party on your way up, and they were, you know, in the, in kind of the celebration mode of having summoned it and now coming down and saying how it's the hardest thing they've ever done, and then they see you and instantly shift their perspective about, What's actually hard in this life.

It was. It was validating on so many levels. I mean, this is kind of like you, you come up with a big idea like this and you think, okay. This sounds like a good idea. And then you get into the minutia of what you're doing and you're like, is this really important? You know, are we really doing something? I mean, your, your sort of motivation wanes at times and you think, are we really relevant? And you're going up and you see these people and you see their reaction. You're like, I think we're relevant. I think that what we're doing makes sense. But the other part is we were sharing an experience. So they had just done it. They were on their way down. They knew what was going on. They knew what we were encountering. And so, and that to me is one of the coolest, it's the reason why I love sport is I can watch it and I can sit on my couch and think we did that. Meaning that we as human beings did this amazing thing. And, and that I think is the cool part because they did something that was amazing. And then they looked at me and went. Okay, that might be a little bit crazier than what we tried to do, but we, we had this perspective to really be able to appreciate what went into each person's journey or safari, as they say, in Africa, you know,

So tell us about the mission. What, what kind of, what, you know, you already told us that your inspiration was a voice in your head while you're hurtling down a mountain to, you know, go climb a big one. Tell us about the mission. What, what is it, what were you trying to illuminate there?

our mission with one revolution is to turn perception of disability upside down. And in a lot of ways, that's for the 1. 2 billion people in the world out there to change the narrative from that's too bad to what do you do? What do you have to teach me? But it's also about that thing that stands between us and doing what we want to do. That thing between our ears can be really, really debilitating. Oh, you're not smart enough to do that. You're not creative enough. You're not rich enough. You're not strong enough. You know, you're not whatever and and that's what I wanted to do. And the mountain gave me gave me the platform that the accident had given me before gave me a platform to say we as human beings. Are the product of the challenges that we find to pursue and how much we're willing to learn as we go through that process. You know, are we willing to kind of go? Okay, I'm willing to feel and look stupid right now in this process to get where I need to go. And that is really scary. That is really scary to try something for the first time. So, so I think that that's what the mountain did for me.

yeah, you know, your, your acceptance of vulnerability as you got to the top. that was really compelling for me. And just that clarity of, you know, nobody climbs a mountain alone. just really, uh, it really stuck out to me as like, you know, it all made sense. And, you know, we talk about, you know, being human and, and understanding things and, and just being able to. Yeah. Attack things as they happen to you. I mean, it's so important to have that vulnerability. And, I feel like that really came through in what you were doing there.

It's an interesting thing. I think as we get older, right? I mean, we can, we can look back on, like, the things that our parents made us do when we were kids. It's like, I don't want to, I don't want to do that. I'm going to look stupid doing that. Why, why, why are you buying me these sneakers instead of those sneakers? I'm going to look totally uncool. And as we get older and we can make our own decisions, we can, we can avoid all of those things. Like I wrote and illustrated a children's book called Is it lonely to be a four leaf clover. And in order to do it, I had to learn how Oh, To draw. So I read a book and did all these exercises drawing on the right side of the brain. I read it and did all these exercises. And then I kind of wanted to keep going. So I went to our local, art center and I took a painting class and there were, there were three of us. In the class and the other two were professional and I was I was not and we're sitting there. We have a model and I looked at that blank canvas. It felt like for 20 minutes and I thought, I'm just going to leave. It's just it's just easier to leave. And eventually I sort of okay, I'm going to make one mark, I think those things are helpful for us because one we survive it. That's the biggest message is, yeah, you can do this and you can survive it. But two, you start, you start ending up getting more of a feeling that. I can do things that I didn't think I could do. I ended up meeting the woman who ended up publishing my, my children's book and my graduation book, in that class, you know, and it's like, I survived and actually enjoyed it. And every once in a while I look at the, at the painting that I did. Good. It's not too bad. You know,

Yeah. You know, we're, we're talking to a lot of people about, about marketing and, and how they, they encounter decisions and things that happen, um, as they're kind of leading brands and stuff. But, so much of what you're talking about is so transferable to, making decisions and taking risks. I love your statement about, saying yes to everything and the possibility of what can happen from there. And, um, I think that you can't be afraid to make a mistake, or to take a risk there's things that might happen, but it also might take you down a different path or continue to, to wind around the road. So, I think that it, that mentality, that mindset is so important.

is, I mean, it's kind of the improv of life, right? It's the yes. And Because if you say no, the story ends

Looking at all the things that you've accomplished or tried. It's that trying part that, you know, just makes people, so impressed with your fearlessness, right? I, I'm going to go to an art class. with professionals and figure out how to illustrate my own book. I'm going to go do an open mic night and try stand up comedy, even though I've never done that. I'm going to strap myself into a chair and go down a mountain. I'm going to strap myself into a hand cycle and try to climb a mountain. Like, these fearless decisions to say yes, that's what I think, Chris, makes me so excited to be able to talk to you, uh, today and any day.

I appreciate it. John fearless, it doesn't actually, it is not accurate because there's always fear. I think that fear can be our greatest motivator, right? I mean, it's the thing that says, Hey, stop. And you're like, okay, am I risking my life here? Or am I making a good decision? Is this this thing that, that is the impediment? The fear is the impediment. The fear in a lot of ways is the competitor that's the thing that we have to confront are the things that want to make a stop in fear. Obviously is the greatest single one and gone. I mean, what is it John Wayne Courage isn't the absence of fear. It's being scared to death and doing it anyway. know, I think that there's a part of that that we have to go scared to death. Here we go. I mean, that's being on stage for open mic night was and I've done it. I don't know. I haven't done it in a while, but I've done it like five, six, maybe more times, you know, kind of thing. And it's, it's one of those, like, yeah, I mean, I'd love to be funny. I mean, that's, that's each time I do a speech, I'm like, oh, I wish I were, I wish I were funnier. I wish I, I wish I just had them laughing the whole time. And, and so yeah, to go and do that. The worst part was waiting in the line because you sign up and only so many people are going to get a spot but you get your three minutes and the lights on your eyes and you go, okay, have fun. Can you have fun now?

is that video somewhere? Can I find that video clip of you doing an open mic

I don't know if I don't know if there's a video.

Well, if there is, I want it.

yeah, yeah. No, there should be.

We'll dedicate a podcast to critiquing your performance as a stand up comic.

don't know if you have enough time.

It might be brief. Hey, Chris, can we go back a little bit to some of the, you know, the inspiration, um, to go ahead and, uh, climb Kilimanjaro and do that as a way to raise, awareness of, people with disabilities. we saw a year ago, about a year ago, Apple released, um, this really amazing epic two minute commercial called The Greatest, where they were showcasing their, accessibility features built into the product. and it just, it focused on a huge range of individuals with disabilities. What other brands do you think do a really good job of building accessibility into their products and service? Because Apple is exceptional. Like so much of what we enjoy in our iPhone is a feature that was started as an accessibility feature. who else do you see out there doing a really good job of building accessibility or mobility into their products?

you know, I mean, it's, it's, it's a really interesting question and I think that some of, I mean, I've been really interested to see some of what's happened with the US Olympic and Paralympic committee, sponsors. So like BP was the first one to use Paralympic athletes in their promotion during the Olympics. And that to me is a, is a big step, right? I mean, I keep talking about like the human journey and we love the underdog, right? I mean, this is the story. Like, we love the underdog who can find a way to be successful because that underdog represents. All of us. And, I love the idea of universal design that to me is the stuff that you're like, well, this just makes sense. whether in computers, whether in architecture, I mean, that's, that's what's really cool is to say, is to have someone who thinks out the process enough that it's accessible, I mean, accessible in, in whatever meaning of that term, or in all of the meanings of the term, I guess, but it just, it makes sense. One of the things that kills me is like ramps on a building. You know, I mean, it's like, okay, that's like a zit on the end of your nose kind of thing. You know, you're like, oh, we did that. And now we've got to do this and just add it on. You know, it's like, can we avoid that part? Can we figure out a way to make it work? that makes it make sense that it's not like, Oh, there's a separate entrance over here. And if you have the secret knock on this door. You'll be allowed to get in.

I was telling Brian a story about going to a restaurant with you once and, and we had to go through a service elevator through the back and go through the kitchen to get to our table, which was not how everybody else in that restaurant got to their table. It felt very, exceptional and not in a positive way

I had to do that when I got inducted into the hall of fame. It really is. I mean, it's one of those you're sort of celebrated in one moment and in the next moment, you're like feeling a little bit like a second class citizen, you know,

Totally. This touches on, so Brian and I have been talking a little bit, um, about, uh, this concept of inspiration porn and, you know, it's like regular porn. It's kind of hard to define, but you know, when you see it, I think, you know, talking about some brands who use, people with disabilities in their marketing. it doesn't work unless it's authentic. And it's actually, it's not referring to something that the product inherently enables. it tends to feel a little bit, um, exploitive. And, you know, I also, I wanted to get your perspective On that phenomenon, how often you see it and experience it, because I feel like I noticed it first time I was around you and people will come up to you and without knowing anything about you just said you're an inspiration because you kind of showed up in a wheelchair versus knowing all that, you know, that the Brian was talking earlier about, all the full rich elements of your life.

You know, I mean, it's an interesting thing. I mean, it's a really interesting question. I happen to be, you know, not at the moment, but I was looking over Brian's shoulder at one point and saw the Rocky poster behind him. Uh, yep. There it is. The original, the first one at the top of the, the art museum there at the top of the steps. Right. Isn't that what's going on?

no ramp to the top of those steps. I don't think either by the way.

I don't think,

No, absolutely not.

but in, in the hand cycle that I, that I went up Kilimanjaro, I could go up those steps.

Oh,

I could go up that. Yeah, which would be pretty cool. Should have thought of that. That would be

Next time you're

have having the anthem

all right. Next time you're in Philly, buddy. I know what we're doing.

Exactly. We've got to do

we're climbing the rocky steps.

steaks, not cheese steaks, we'll sit at the top and then we'll,

The incentive. Exactly. But the thing is, I mean, we're all looking for inspiration, right? And and that movie. Did a tremendous job. I mean, you, you feel like, okay, I can take on Apollo Creed now, you know, like I'm, I'm ready. I don't think that would work out very well for any of us, but, but we felt like we were ready and, and, and that's so inspiration porn. I mean, it's, I think it's one of the things that the pity aspect is, is the issue, you know, the pity aspect of like, oh, it's so great for you. And it's like. No, it's, it's blood, sweat and tears, and being successful is often a matter of. Not quitting, it's sort of like that's the that's kind of the first step is is like Finding a way to be successful finding another strategy And and so I never want to say no to people's inspiration, but it is one of those you try to sort of spin it in a way that they can understand that it's that it's yeah This is about the passion. This is about taking a risk I mean, I often say the greatest risk we take is taking no risk at all If we stay in the comfortable part, we're not going to figure out who we are. And if we take the risk, yeah, we might get beaten up a little bit along the way, or we might get beaten up a lot along the way, but sometimes those people who've been beaten up along the way are the people that we celebrate. And, and there is. It's a bit of responsibility on my part to project who I am and what I'm all about. And it's not just me, obviously, it's, it's, it's, you know, the people that I surround myself with as well, and my, my competitors and those kinds of things. I mean, I'm not the only one doing this by any means, but it's, but there's a responsibility to, to tell the story. And that's why we did the movie. When I said, okay, we're going to climb Kilimanjaro. I also thought if you don't tell the story, it didn't happen.

you know,

we have to find a way to make that happen.

Well, Chris, you've got, you've got some, some broad shoulders that you put that responsibility onto and, and I'd say, really handled it beautifully. Brian, what else do we have for Chris

I wanted to know a little bit about your, your competitive fire today, you know, how, how have you,, I guess channel that, uh, to where we're at today, because, you know, it's almost been, what has it been 18 years since you retired or, or close to that,

Uh, 2004. Yeah. So yeah. 18. Yeah. Something. Yeah. 18, 19 years.

because that doesn't, that, that fire never necessarily leaves you, but how have you, how have you continued to, Control that or channel it, you know, you did the mountain climb and you've continued to try different things, but you know, what are you, uh, today, kind of, how are you channeling that? I guess

Yeah. I mean the competitive part of it is. Is not liking to lose, you know, being being willing to being willing to take to do what it takes to be successful, but I think it is also that being willing to take a risk to so, you know, so, yeah, jumping into the podcast world, which which I had done, which is one of those that you think, Oh, what am I doing? I don't know if you guys think that, but yeah, What am I doing? How do we how do we ask questions? How do we make this interesting? How do we keep those people? Uh, you know, and and you also open yourself up for criticism, right? You put it out there and like, Huh, that's the dumbest question I've ever heard in my life. you.

What are you trying to tell us, Chris?

noted.

That's good.

There's

not that I'm saying that about you. I'm saying that this is coming from personal experience, but, uh, but we open ourselves up to criticism, right? And I think that's the competitive part is, is being willing to open ourselves up. To that criticism and recognizing there, there are a whole lot of people who are going to say no. That's, you know, I kind of, I kind of find it all the time. Like with my foundation, we do a school presentation called name tags. Which is helping students to move beyond the labels and limitations that we put on ourselves and others, and it's resilience based. Our motto is it's not what happens to you. It's what you do with what happens to you just for me. I'm I'm reaching out to school saying, Hey. People have loved this. It's great. Kids write college essays. I had some kid chase me down in the airport to chant our motto and it had been five years since I'd been at his school.

That's

time I'm reaching out to schools, you know, and and these doors are not swinging wide open or often, you know, often I'm not getting any responses. I'm having to continue to follow up and follow up and be like, I don't know if that quite fits. I'm like, no, no, you don't understand. This is great. This is you're going to love it. And and I think that that's the competitive nature of God. All right. No, no, no, fail, fail, fail. Okay, keep. We're going to keep going. You know, Jordan said that, right. You know, I missed over 9, 000 shots in my career, lost almost 300 games, 26 times been trusted to take the game winning shot and missed, I failed over and over and over again in my life. And that's why I succeed, you know? And it's like, he was pretty good at what he did, I think. You

Yeah, well, I think it was Gretzky who said, uh, you miss a hundred percent of the shots you don't take or something, you know, he

Exactly. It really, and he was pretty good at what he did too, right? Scored almost two times as many points as anybody.

How has the, um, you know, as you're. Commentator on the Paralympic games. How has that Olympic experience changed since, since you were there, you know, for the athletes and for the fans, even.

oh, wow. I mean, it's, it's funny, I did a, I did a podcast with Julie Foudy a while ago, and uh, it was great. And just one of my heroes, you know, from the Women's World Cup Soccer team in 1999. And, and that was in an era where they could go and win the world cup and people are like, so what did you do with your summer? It's like, we won the biggest thing in our sport and you don't know about it. Right. And that's, that was the same thing for me with the Paralympics is that. People didn't know what the Paralympics was. I mean, it has a lot of brand recognition now. It's come a long way from what I did. And my first games was 92 in Albertville. we, we didn't have opening, opening ceremonies in, in a stadium. We were actually just up in teen. We were up in a mountain village. I, I've never even been to Albertville. I went to the games in Albert. I've never been to Albertville. Uh, didn't even go.

Uh, to your point, Chris, I, I, I'm, I always tell people because I was amazed when I learned that your ski courses, you're doing the same course as the able bodied Olympics, competitors did two weeks prior. It's the same course, right?

It's, it's, for the most part, it is the same course. It's the same venues, and it's been that way since Seoul in 88, where the Paralympics have followed two weeks after, after the Olympics. And, and so yeah, same venues, same, same courses. Same. Same. You know, same, same, uh, same fear, same, uh, same competitor. Really,

And now the Paralympics have the same pomp and circumstance with the open and closing ceremony, which is really cool to see. And, and, and it's been, it's been, it's been great that you've been able to be the color commentator for those.

It's been really fun. That's where, yeah, for me being able to be, you know, the analyst for the opening and closing ceremonies for NBC for the Paralympics has been really cool to kind of be able to communicate the excitement that the athletes have coming in. thinking about doing their job, and what's going through their mind, but also to see, we don't have a lot of audiences, you know, back, back when I first started, we weren't even on television. And my biggest games was, was Lillehammer 94. I won all four races and none of my family even came.

Really?

No, they didn't. And that was probably my fault because they had been in Albertville two years prior, because that's when we started switching from winter to summer. And, and Lillehammer, yeah. Was a lot like a lot like New England, you know, where we were racing in Hafele and, you know, you're getting the smell of cow manures. You're going up the lift, you know, because it's a working farm and and this kind of stuff. And I have I have such fond memories and just love the Norwegian people. And I don't think I was prepared because I finished and I turned around. And it was four deep, like lining, lining the, uh, the course. And I went, wow, how cool is this place? And I wasn't smart enough to tell my family to show up.

So when they came to the next Olympics where you didn't win, you know, five gold medals, were they super disappointed in you?

You already peaked and we missed it.

Hopefully there's footage of that somewhere.

Footage of you missed it.

No,

Plenty, plenty of footage. Yeah.

love when, uh, I did listen to your Julie Fowley podcast and, uh, what'd she call it, silver, white, gold.

wait, that's good.

She's

You're, you're, you're, when you're talking about, uh, you know, podcasting as something that kind of keeps your competitive spirit flowing. I went to your Bill Walton interview, which I equated to riding a bucking Bronco, just like strap on and hold on and hope for the best. Cause that guy, that guy is off to the races. I'm not sure you were, you were, you were a slight participant in your own podcast for that episode.

Yes, I thought I was in charge and Bill, uh, Bill was taking it wherever Bill wanted to go. And wherever Bill wants to go is entirely entertaining.

Oh, for sure. For sure. And, and P. S. obviously, a massive fan of yours. It was, it was kind of cool to hear him just gushing over like, you know, how, how much admiration he had for you, uh, when you probably went into the podcast thinking it was going to be the reverse of that.

Oh yeah, no, he's, he's been a hero for a long time. And I think he was one of the guys who was one of my father's heroes too. So it was one of those like inherited heroes. Cause I don't think in the early, early 70s, I wasn't picking up a lot of, uh, you know, a lot of what was happening in the sports world.

Right,

Yeah.

Um, well, Chris, you've been amazingly gracious with your time and energy. Uh, and, and thank you for talking to us. It's been fantastic.

Really appreciate

pleasure. And thank you guys for doing this. Thank you for making it happen and continue to fight the good fight here.

we will.

entertain and inspire and, and educate.

That's the idea. and, truth be told, having you on our podcast may actually be a little bit of a Trojan horse to get the real superstar in your household, as a guest, your wife. So, she may be getting, uh, a request to, to join us sometime too, because, that would be phenomenal.

That will be great. I will. I will give you guys, you know, my best recommendation.

Oh, thank you. Thank you. I'm not sure. I hope that carries some weight

I hope it does. I don't know. I can't make any

I could go either way for us.

Exactly. She's like, I'm definitely out in that case.

Exactly. Oh, no, not at all.

Well, thank you so much.

Yeah, this is great.

Appreciate it. Thank you guys.

Wow. Wow. That was, uh, that was very inspirational. Really incredible stuff. I mean, Chris has just a phenomenal take on, on life, um, moving forward, you know, making decisions. Um, that was, that was a real exciting interview.

But yeah, I'm glad you liked it. Yeah, he's a really interesting guy, and just a really good person. So I was thrilled he was able to join us and share some of his, his experiences and his thoughts on life.

Yeah. Let's keep that guy in our universe.

All right. I like it. Uh, speaking of people in our universe, uh, maybe it's time to try to go get some new people into our universe with our regular segment, dear, hopelessly unattainable guests, what do you think?

I think, you know, as this podcast grows and grows and grows, I think these people are becoming more attainable. What do you think?

Uh, sure, why not? I mean, haven't heard back from, uh, Taylor, and I don't know if you've heard from Michael Jordan, but let's keep

Oh, MJ, uh, maybe I need to, you know, check my voicemail and make sure it's not full. Maybe Tim Cook's been trying to call. I don't know.

Yeah, I don't think Tim Cook's leaving voicemails.

All right. Well, who you got?

All right, I'd like to start with, Dear Santa Claus, all I want for Christmas this year is world peace. Just Just kidding. First of all, we know Santa Claus doesn't deliver world peace. And second of all, we also know that he has a much higher appearance fee than we can afford. So, uh, I actually am going to send this letter to dear Sir Richard Branson.

Ooh.

Yeah. Right up your alley here, Brian. According to Wikipedia, you are quote, a British business magnate and commercial astronaut, but even that lofty description doesn't do you justice. You created a mega brand, Virgin, which somehow conveys a hipness from the media and entertainment business to mobile phone service, to healthcare, to pretty much every form of travel, air, rail, cruises, and now space. Talk about some big decisions. You decided to shift from running a huge chain of record stores to launching an airline. And after conquering travel here on Earth, like that wasn't enough, you decided to tackle space tourism by launching Virgin Galactic. Badass name, by the way. The list goes on and on. And while we here at Snap Decisions would like to hear about your business successes and failures, we'd love to just hang out. The world seems pretty low on billionaires who don't take themselves too seriously and who just seem to enjoy life. We're happy to come to your private oasis, Necker Island, if it makes being our podcast guest a little easier for you. Sincerely, John O'Brien, the Snap Decisions team. P. S. I know you know Chris Waddell, who we just had on the Snap Decisions podcast as a guest. So, while booking you as a moonshot, you, more than most, understand that sometimes you make it to the moon.

Wow. I like it. I like it.

Let's go Sir Richard, let's class this joint up a little bit with a Sir.

Yes. All right. I think we got a chance.

Let's do it! I'm not sure how to get these letters to these people, but, uh, keep making

to get our people to give it to their people,

Oh yeah, I forgot about our people.

get our people moving on that.

I actually have a plan for this one, so it's a plan which will reveal itself later, I hope.

Okay. All right. I'm looking forward to it.

All right. Well, Brian, you have a great day.

all right. My people tell your people to have a good day too.

Perfect. All right. And to all the people who might be listening to this, thank you.

Thank you.

Bye.

Bye