Track 1: I honestly believe that the cult open gets more listeners than someone who,

Track 1: they're like, oh, here's a, not an ad, but like, oh, all right,

Track 1: let's see if it will work today.

Track 2: I mean, already you're better than you have been the past couple of times.

Track 2: Yeah, you haven't like frozen out at all. You haven't.

Track 1: I am using Chrome this time instead of Firefox, which is what I used to always

Track 1: use until I realized that it's better in Firefox, but maybe for me, it's not.

Track 2: So what movie are we talking about?

Track 1: See, this is the cold open bill. You don't have to say it yet.

Track 1: Hello, and welcome to Left of the Projector. I'm your host, Evan,

Track 1: back again with another film discussion from the left.

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Track 1: Wherever you're listening, give us a rating and subscribe so you'll be notified

Track 1: of our weekly episodes that drop every Tuesday. And now on to the show.

Track 1: This week on Left of the Projector, we will be talking about the 2025 film Eddington by Ari Aster.

Track 1: You may know him from other films such as Hereditary, Midsommar, and Bo is Afraid.

Track 1: It stars Joaquin Phoenix, Pedro Pascal, Luke Grimes, Michael Ward,

Track 1: Austin Butler, and Emma Stone.

Track 1: With me on this week's episode, I have just Bill. How are you doing today?

Track 2: Doing well. How are you?

Track 1: Ward is still on his quest, so he will return soon.

Track 1: But this may not be a new film. It came out last May in 2025.

Track 1: But it kind of doesn't matter when you watch this movie. It's pretty relevant.

Track 1: And you chose this film, Bill. Normally we have guests. They choose films.

Track 2: I mean, we didn't.

Track 1: Kind of chose it.

Track 2: I mean, we had options, you know, we were looking to pad out our,

Track 2: our backlog and, uh, you know, I suggested a couple of different newer stuff and this is what we, uh.

Track 2: We came to came down on.

Track 1: Yeah. And I had, I had not seen it yet.

Track 2: And, um, neither had I.

Track 1: I feel like I'll be chastised. You know, everyone was like, Oh,

Track 1: have you seen this film? Are you going to make an episode on it?

Track 1: Well, well, listeners, we are.

Track 2: I mean, honestly, like I find, you know, like, yes, we are a podcast talks about

Track 2: movies from like a leftist perspective, uh, you know, from a Marxist analysis,

Track 2: like, honestly, like I find the like deliberate viewing of movies that are intentionally political.

Track 2: Like it's like it's cheap it's easy like i would rather personally i would rather

Track 2: look at movies that are made in the context of the culture without being specifically

Track 2: political and then analyze it from that perspective as opposed to seek out movies

Track 2: that are like intending to be political but.

Track 1: For anyone who doesn't know the film takes place during the beginning of the

Track 1: COVID-19 pandemic in 2020, I believe it's May 2020, in a small town in New Mexico.

Track 1: It's basically about two competing sort of people.

Track 1: Joaquin Phoenix is the town sheriff, and Pedro Pascal is the town's mayor.

Track 1: And it ends up being them competing to vote for re-election or oppose him, oppose Pedro Pascal.

Track 1: And it really speaks to anyone who remembers and hasn't completely blanked it

Track 1: from their mind what happened in 2020 where, like,

Track 1: mask mandates and COVID shots and store closings and social distancing has,

Track 1: like, literally all of these things in it. And what.

Track 1: Ari Aster said about the movie, and I think it's worthwhile mentioning at the beginning.

Track 1: They asked him what it was about, and he said, if I had to boil it down,

Track 1: I'd say Eddington is really about a data center being built.

Track 1: He says, quote, from my perspective, a common enemy in the film is the distraction.

Track 1: We're living in a collapsing system where political battles mesmerize us as

Track 1: big tech capitalizes everything.

Track 1: What has really happened, which COVID-19 pushed even further,

Track 1: is that people are powerless in this system, and they've been taken away

Track 1: from having any access to changing world control over

Track 1: data and information is the privilege of power and that

Track 1: works even better if your suspicions and your anger can

Track 1: be displaced onto your neighbor the old idea

Track 1: of democracy which is that we would be in a countervailing force against the

Track 1: power run amok is gone completely covid cut the last link the pandemic did and

Track 1: out there is power big power we haven't found a way to deal with it yet we're

Track 1: gonna have to and that's what the characters in Eddington are driving themselves

Track 1: mad trying to do, whether they know it or not.

Track 2: The data center thing seems like a... Most of that, I would say,

Track 2: is an accurate assessment.

Track 2: I mean, it is his fucking movie, but like...

Track 2: The data center seems so secondary.

Track 2: I mean, in terms of like, yes, information and like the fact that like conspiratorial

Track 2: thought is conspiratorial thought and information manipulation is such a huge

Track 2: proponent of this, this movie.

Track 2: But what does that inherently have to do with data center?

Track 2: Nothing. especially because most of this the main like person pushing the like

Track 2: the misinformation or like put they're not even it's not even from ai it's from

Track 2: an actual like fucking like conspiracy pizza gate pushing q anon type like.

Track 1: What makes it even further is so

Track 1: you have a lot of characters in this movie that definitely fills pieces that

Track 1: were happening in 2020 so the other context is so the son of Pedro Pascal is

Track 1: sort of getting involved in the political Black Lives Matter kind of movement

Track 1: as it's starting to kind of take hold in May.

Track 1: And then the summer of 2020, you have like a girl to school who already has

Track 1: kind of political leanings.

Track 1: And you have people that are also kind of joining the fight simply because like

Track 1: they want to, you know, they want to make a girl like them.

Track 1: And so they become political, you know, and you have, but which,

Track 1: you know fine if that's going to be a radicalization,

Track 1: which I think in this case completely flips on its head it's

Track 1: not the thing but I think my point is that the data

Track 1: center I agree is not the thing that's important but if the data center and

Track 1: big capital could do anything that would benefit their cause it would be to

Track 1: make people fight with each other and fight culture wars instead of being mad at the actual villain.

Track 2: If you haven't seen this movie like everything it.

Track 2: Think back to 2020 and everything that was happening. It's George Floyd,

Track 2: BLM, COVID, mask mandates.

Track 2: Those are all like the primary, like motivating issues in this movie.

Track 2: The data center seems so secondary, especially in terms of like that stuff and

Track 2: the like deliberate, you know, oh, I'm sorry.

Track 2: And also pizza get shit. And like, which I find considering the fact that since

Track 2: this movie was released,

Track 2: we have been inundated with actual evidence regarding like Epstein and all of

Track 2: that shit felt super kind of tone deaf.

Track 2: And because this

Track 2: movie posits this movie comes from

Track 2: a perspective of 2020 in which people were like there was the manipulation of

Track 2: the idea of the whole like there was the manipulation of all that and yes the

Track 2: the whole like pizzagate stuff was being manipulated and like q anon and like the, you know,

Track 2: whatever, like the, you know, the government and the elites, like, you know.

Track 2: Being downplayed by the system. And then in the movie, it is also being treated that way.

Track 2: And it's like, yes, in 2020, that's the way it was being like publicly,

Track 2: but like we're past that. Like even when he was making this movie.

Track 1: We already knew more than we did.

Track 2: Yeah. So it's like, it felt super kind of like gross and like really fucked

Track 2: up to like, basically have a movie that is coming from the perspective of,

Track 2: these accusations are conspiratorial thought that should be disregarded.

Track 2: And that, like, it just felt not good.

Track 1: I mean, the only pass I could give him for it is if he's truly trying to create

Track 1: a movie that is a snapshot of

Track 1: 2020, then it's reasonable. But at the same time, like, you could also...

Track 1: I don't know.

Track 2: I mean, which I think this movie is easily 20 years ahead of its time.

Track 2: And by ahead of its time, I mean, like this movie doesn't work now.

Track 2: This movie does not work in the current context of our time.

Track 2: It was made too soon. And like, I don't mean that to be like,

Track 2: oh, it's ahead of its time. Like it's groundbreaking.

Track 2: I just mean like it, we are still, we are still actively figuring out and dealing

Track 2: with the repercussions and the fallout.

Track 2: Of these events and to

Track 2: fictionalize them and like portray them in a movie at this point in time is

Track 2: to do so in a way that is you're gonna miss like it's coming out with like this

Track 2: stuff is still all fucking raw yeah no i i i.

Track 1: Uh agree with that i think um i yeah i mean i'm trying to think of another example

Track 1: of a movie where they're analyzing and discussing a topic that is still so recent

Track 1: that it can't it's also can't act i don't know.

Track 2: Well let's look at one that's successfully yeah well that's that uh let's look

Track 2: at battle of battle of edgiers and how battle of edgiers came out like what

Track 2: 10 years after like a successful revolution yeah about that and like you know

Track 2: 10 years and like 15 years I think after like the actual events it's portraying right.

Track 1: It could be less than 15 but yes.

Track 2: But it does it successfully because of, because with the clarity of vision,

Track 2: the manner in which it is balanced as opposed to this.

Track 1: Well, here's what I would say as to maybe why that's, why that's possible.

Track 1: Number one, I don't think, and we say this all the time, like,

Track 1: oh, like when we talked about Black Panther, oh, Hollywood and Marvel wouldn't

Track 1: let you really have any revolutionary thoughts in the movie.

Track 1: Would hollywood allow ari aster to make a movie that truly critiques 2020 and

Track 1: what happened for what it was and it's rather than actually kind of almost excusing it in some ways.

Track 2: Right well honestly beyond like the whole

Track 2: 2020 thing would hollywood i don't know ari aster i don't know him from a fucking

Track 2: hole in the wall despite the fact that he apparently he was born in jersey he

Track 2: was born in Princeton I don't know Ari Aster and like there's not like a ton

Track 2: like he's kind of closed mouth would Hollywood let somebody make a movie that's straight,

Track 2: acknowledges and validates every

Track 2: fucking claim about child sex

Track 2: abuse no that is my that is the big that is the to me that is the glaring issue

Track 2: like honestly if all of that wasn't in this this would be a different movie

Track 2: and it wouldn't feel so blinkered is it even necessary.

Track 1: For the movie.

Track 2: No except for the fact that again he's making a movie about 2020 and this that

Track 2: was a huge topic because of all of this right.

Track 1: People don't remember there is this thing called q anon is it still going on do they still do that.

Track 2: Yeah i mean kind of i don't think they're as like they're not really as like

Track 2: they don't post the mail post about it they don't have to be because the like

Track 2: The people behind QAnon are now fully in power.

Track 1: Working the government.

Track 2: In power. Yeah, like they won.

Track 1: And for people who don't know and remember what Pizzagate was,

Track 1: I don't necessarily think we need to litigate that here.

Track 1: But if you don't remember, you're maybe younger or just you blacked out that

Track 1: period of time, which honestly, good for you. Don't blame you. Yeah, I don't blame you.

Track 1: You could look that up and see how that kind of fits and in a weird way this,

Track 1: The way that the movie is sort of, I don't mean this as an insult or as a positive thing.

Track 1: It reminds me of sort of the way that Quentin Tarantino's Once Upon a Time in

Track 1: Hollywood sort of takes a historical event with sort of plot points and then

Track 1: just sort of like recreates his story around it.

Track 1: In a way, this is like that, except it's mostly accurate.

Track 1: I don't know. I wish he'd take more liberties. I don't know.

Track 1: Like made it more of a, I don't want to call it art. I don't know exactly what I'm trying to say.

Track 2: It is more accurate. But then also the things that are fabricated for the movie are too, are not.

Track 1: Unrealistic enough.

Track 2: For instance. So this movie starts out pretty slow and then it goes off the fucking rails.

Track 2: Else when and there's a lot of stuff that just kind of converges and so when we come to the end,

Track 2: when we come to like i guess like the last like what like 40 minutes and the

Track 2: the blm of it all and antifa of it all really ratchets up and goes to the roof we get the fake antifa.

Track 2: And it's like the way he introduces that, and because we never,

Track 2: ever see anything from the perspective of those people, we never have any concrete

Track 2: information about them.

Track 2: You then are left. It's like, what is he trying to say here?

Track 2: Is he saying that there are people? Is he coming down and saying that Antifa

Track 2: is a organized terrorist group?

Track 2: Or is he saying that people on the far right were manipulating things and using things?

Track 2: Or is he saying, it's like, it's very unclear in a lot of ways.

Track 2: And not so much very unclear as he leaves it up to a very loose interpretation,

Track 2: which leads you to, to question a lot of it.

Track 2: And then it's like, where does he stand on this?

Track 2: Is he okay with, you know, is he okay with, does he support like radical, like black liberation?

Track 2: Or is he saying like these fucking people that want things because at the same time,

Track 2: he so repeatedly posits and puts frames the young people in Eddington who are.

Track 2: Fighting and protesting and marching as like fools.

Track 1: And performative completely.

Track 2: Yeah. But then, and then at the same time, you have these like,

Track 2: these people, it's like, what are you trying to say, man? What are you saying here?

Track 1: Well, I mean, if you think back to 2020 and, you know, you, you probably,

Track 1: you know, going to rallies and the amount of people in the street,

Track 1: I would be willing to bet you that many of those people hadn't engaged in any

Track 1: kind of political protest before.

Track 1: So there were people like those kids that are like, holy shit,

Track 1: like I am white and I am privileged for all the things that I have.

Track 1: And maybe I should unpack that.

Track 1: But he doesn't give the counter to that in any way as to like someone in the

Track 1: town who actually is black.

Track 1: And in a way they actually instead use the black cop in the town to being like, hey, you're black.

Track 1: How come you don't care about this? Like, well, because he's a fucking cop and

Track 1: cops don't care about that because they are the boot. They're not.

Track 1: They're the boot. And so, in a way, he does kind of cop out on that and makes it,

Track 1: you could view it as Ari Aster saying that the Black Lives Matter movement as a whole is and was a joke.

Track 2: But at the same time, I feel like looking back at 2020 and seeing what came

Track 2: of the Black Lives Matter movement—,

Track 2: we can say like but at the same time to

Track 2: broadly paint individuals that

Track 2: did become radicalized and broadly

Track 2: paint people that were that really genuinely did come out and care as ignorant

Track 2: or not ignorant but like naive and childish or purely doing it for performative

Track 2: is kind of fucked up Yeah.

Track 1: You're right.

Track 2: And it felt because so like this movie vacillated between like trying to present

Track 2: a far right conservative criticism like it could have been directed by Ben Shapiro

Track 2: to like all the way to like a super,

Track 2: you know, like shit lib viewpoint.

Track 2: Like a like sincere and I heavily air quote sincere liberal viewpoint of things.

Track 1: I mean, that leads you to believe that he's either views it from one of those

Track 1: sides, probably the shit-lib side.

Track 1: I don't think Ari Aster is like a right-wing conservative. Seems unlikely.

Track 1: But he, I don't know. It's kind of a cop-out there.

Track 2: And— It's a deeply cynical movie.

Track 1: Oh, I mean, I think his movies in general are fairly cynical in general. I mean...

Track 2: This feels more cynical than... I mean, I've seen Hereditary and I've seen Midsommar.

Track 2: I've not seen the other one that you mentioned.

Track 1: Bo's Afraid.

Track 2: Bo's Afraid.

Track 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Track 2: But those are presented in almost...

Track 2: A magical realism universe there is

Track 2: a difference between having a cynical movie that is

Track 2: very much rooted in like kind of like a a fantastic world and this which is

Track 2: like it's it's fucking here like it's it's based in this world very much so

Track 2: it's based in the place he grew up in yeah no No.

Track 1: It's true.

Track 1: That, what was I going to say? It is, it's cynical.

Track 1: And the other thing that I think maybe he does get right is he presents the

Track 1: presumably like Democrat candidate, which is Pedro Pascal, who's the mayor of

Track 1: the town, the small town,

Track 1: as sort of being in bed with big tech.

Track 1: Like he's getting pushed to open this data center. And I think in that sense,

Track 1: he is accurately portraying the...

Track 1: I don't want to say left, but I mean the party, the Democrats, the liberals.

Track 1: He's portraying them pretty well in the sense that they will do whatever they're

Track 1: told from a corporation perspective.

Track 1: They'll take money from whoever. Clearly, he's taking money from the status

Track 1: center for his campaign to allow them to do it.

Track 1: He already diverted funds to build some, like, big road.

Track 1: But then what I find interesting is the right-wing conspiracy nut.

Track 1: So the mother-in-law of Joaquin Phoenix is like a super conspiracy nutjob.

Track 1: She's like reading about all these things like, oh, they did a test for pandemics

Track 1: three years before the pandemic.

Track 1: It's like, hey, lady, that's in case there is one and they want to prepare.

Track 1: It's not because they were preparing for the one that.

Track 1: Anyway, she's a nutjob and she's against all these things.

Track 1: But as soon as, spoiler, at the end, when Joaquin Phoenix becomes mayor and

Track 1: she pulls the strings, she is now in bed with all the same people that the liberals

Track 1: were in bed with, which shows to me that all of these people serve the same master.

Track 1: It's just how they want to sugarcoat it for their constituents.

Track 1: And in their case, it's right-wing conspiracy nonsense, Pizzagate bullshit.

Track 2: Right. Which I guess like, you know, I guess what it comes down to is my issue

Track 2: with the cynicism is I find the, the, the way these kinds of things are perspective.

Track 2: It's, it's painted from a very like, um, no theory having perspective.

Track 2: And it's like, you know what? You're right.

Track 2: You're absolutely right. They both serve the same master.

Track 2: They're both, you know, and there's been mass media manipulation.

Track 2: But all you did was make a movie being like, everybody sucks and everything is bad.

Track 2: Like that doesn't, you know,

Track 2: You've not, you're not helping either.

Track 2: Like you, when you do that,

Track 2: you're not doing anything to benefit anything other than providing media for smug,

Track 2: self-righteous people who don't participate in activism or organizing or actively

Track 2: perform praxis and try to make the world a better place.

Track 2: All you're doing is perform you're making smug self-righteous media for those

Track 2: people to watch and then go that's right everybody sucks they're all bad and

Track 2: now i will watch my movie and then sit down and do fucking nothing and i think

Track 2: that's what pisses me off.

Track 1: So do you think that the the audience that watches this and likes it would you say that it's liberals,

Track 1: because i feel like they would be mad at this person like that like i feel like

Track 1: if they were to watch it i would almost be mad that the way that you're portraying me unless they believe i.

Track 2: Would say it's more it's like rad lips.

Track 1: They would like this movie or like ultra did not perform well in the box office

Track 1: for anyone it 25 million dollar budget made 13.7 million so it was a flop.

Track 2: I think i think it's because going back i think this movie is literally i came

Track 2: out 22 20 years too fucking early. It's too raw.

Track 2: Like, this is not an analysis of shit and then looking at how it led up to it.

Track 2: This is just watching what happened five years ago and being deeply uncomfortable.

Track 2: Like, that's what it is.

Track 1: Is this, is this a...

Track 2: The COVID stuff.

Track 1: Is this a conservative movie?

Track 2: At times it really feels like it.

Track 1: Because...

Track 2: At times it feels like it.

Track 1: I mean, whether or not you watch it, and like I watch, obviously I'm not on

Track 1: the side of Joaquin Phoenix and the fucked up shit he does.

Track 1: I mean, first he's just sort of like, you know, refusing to wear his mask and,

Track 1: you know, like sort of the things that were happening at the time.

Track 1: Dealing with a town that sort of has people who are trying to comply. They don't want to die.

Track 1: And then people who are just like, this is all stupid. It's all conspiracy. theory and

Track 1: then as the movie progresses he just goes off

Track 1: the deep end his wife has now left him he's living with

Track 1: this crazy uh mother-in-law who's a conspiracy theorist

Track 1: and he ends up shooting dead like this unhoused person in the town dumps his

Track 1: body in the river okay that's fucked up and then he goes a step further and

Track 1: snipes snipes from like a distance the he he snipes pedro pascal while he's

Track 1: in his house, and then his son.

Track 1: And he doesn't get rid of their bodies. Instead, he blames Antifa by putting

Track 1: up a Black Lives Matter slogan. And this...

Track 2: And frames his officer.

Track 1: Yes, then frames his officer when they start to... When the natives who live

Track 1: in the... Indigenous people who live in the reservation right across the line

Track 1: are being like, oh, well, am I forgetting something?

Track 2: They're the only people in this entire movie that are not fucking assholes or idiots.

Track 2: The only people in this entire movie who are presented as being reasonable,

Track 2: intelligent human beings are the two indigenous officers from Pueblo, the reservation cops.

Track 2: They're the only people who are not fucking idiots.

Track 1: And they're being prevented from actually investigating because if they did,

Track 1: they would figure out clearly that it was the sheriff who committed the crimes.

Track 1: He puts it all together when he sees the whiteboard in the office, the handwriting.

Track 1: But this is also a thing that,

Track 1: I could see why Ari Aster is doing this. He's, this is definitely what,

Track 1: this definitely happened,

Track 1: where right-wing agitators framed riots on Black Lives Matter in order to delegitimize

Track 1: the movement. This was actively happening.

Track 1: But then he takes it a step further when he has this, like, Black Ops plane

Track 1: coming in, as you mentioned before, of these, like, super elite,

Track 1: you know, Antifa terrorists who are clearly well-funded.

Track 1: And if you're on the conspiracy side, you'd be like, oh, well,

Track 1: like George Soros paid for that plane and to have them go in, you know.

Track 2: That was exactly what I thought to myself. I was like, what's that symbol on the tail of the plane?

Track 2: I'm like, is that a George Soros thing?

Track 1: It wasn't clear, but to me that was the implication in my mind.

Track 1: And so, and then it goes off the rails even further where they claim,

Track 1: this terrorist come in and are like killing everyone in order to blame it on Antifa again.

Track 1: Like, they're trying to get the cop who's in prison out of prison,

Track 1: and then they set up landmines and blow shit up, and, like, one of them dies.

Track 1: One of them, like, loses his—well, does it lose his arm?

Track 2: The black cop? The white deputy—no, the white deputy— He dies.

Track 1: Loses his arm.

Track 2: He dies, and his arm is blown up.

Track 1: Right. And the other guy, the black cop, doesn't die. He just kind of,

Track 1: like, disfigured later.

Track 2: He gets—yeah, he gets, like, all scarred. And he remains a police officer.

Track 2: He becomes, I assume, sheriff.

Track 1: I would assume it's a sheriff. And then you have... What makes it...

Track 1: Mike, one of my several critiques of this movie is that the one-and-a-half-hour setup was too long.

Track 2: Oh, God, yeah.

Track 1: They could have...

Track 2: This movie...

Track 2: It goes from zero to 60 after an hour and a half, and then from 60 to 200 in, like, 10 minutes.

Track 1: Yeah. Yeah, and so, like, the terrorists are then blamed, and then sort of,

Track 1: we already alluded to the ending already, which is, like, a most insane scene.

Track 1: So, Joaquin Phoenix goes into a gun shop and brings out just,

Track 1: like, a massive automatic, you know, I don't know what that kind of gun is called.

Track 1: We need Ward here to tell us.

Track 2: It looked like a bar, like a belt-feed automatic rifle. It had a full- Back. Box.

Track 2: Well, no, he was carrying other guns on his back, but that gun itself looked,

Track 2: it looked like a mounted, what would normally be a mounted automatic gun with a case, a box of.

Track 1: And it rips the reservation's police person's leg right off.

Track 1: And then the very final scene of this crazy shootout is the kid in town ends

Track 1: up shooting to dead the Antifa, quote unquote,

Track 1: terrorist after he had stabbed Joaquin Phoenix in the face, like the head.

Track 2: The head. He stabs him directly in the top of the skull.

Track 1: Which apparently doesn't kill him, and it just makes it so he can't really talk

Track 1: very well and he's paralyzed and then he somehow becomes uh becomes mayor and the conspiracy because.

Track 2: There's no it's in no context.

Track 1: Yeah and so the other guy's dead and that's the

Track 1: only one that's left it's uh the data center gets built

Track 1: and you just sort of like this is what makes it accurate at

Track 1: the end is this is actually what did happen the governor was a government takeover

Track 1: at a sense of these conspiracy right-wing lunatics which is what happened i

Track 1: mean i realized that joe biden was elected in 2020 but he didn't stop the didn't

Track 1: do anything to prevent anything that happened afterward no in fact and like.

Track 2: I said that's why this i feel like this movie doesn't really work because in

Track 2: a lot of ways it's unclear like the creator's perspective feels unclear but

Track 2: more importantly it's just too soon like i just.

Track 1: Let me ask you this we're.

Track 2: Still dealing with stuff from this and it.

Track 1: Feels... Do you think this film is a satire? Or do you think he was aiming for

Track 1: it to be a satire of that era?

Track 2: I think, yes, I do think it's supposed to be a satire. And I just think that,

Track 2: I don't think you can make a satire about something that happened five years

Track 2: ago when part of that satire includes a very important point about child sex trafficking.

Track 2: When at this current moment when he made that movie we are we're learning that

Track 2: those things are very much fucking real yeah.

Track 1: One thing I, like, something that this, I've been seeing Hereditary or the other,

Track 1: his other movies since, like, they came out, so I haven't, don't have a full context.

Track 1: But one thing that people say about Special Hereditary, I think, is the core,

Track 1: and it goes back to that quote that I read at the beginning of how he sees the

Track 1: movie and the society in America,

Track 1: is that at the core, I think that if you got Ari Aster to tell you things,

Track 1: he would probably say he believes in family values and the core of patriarchy.

Track 1: Maybe he wouldn't use those words exactly, but I think that sort of he sees

Track 1: that as a good thing, but he sees in America that these things are decaying,

Track 1: that like the family unit is under attack, whether that's a good thing or a

Track 1: bad thing, especially in Hereditary, the way their family structure.

Track 1: So it makes me think that this is he's trying

Track 1: to show through 2020 like how rotten these family structures and core has become

Track 1: and i'm not like giving him an off as saying that he's i think maybe you could

Track 1: make an argument that he succeeds in some way there i don't necessarily think

Track 1: that the movie as a whole works for that though.

Track 2: I think that to me and i'm sorry if i keep coming But like the entire scene,

Track 2: so there's a character played by Austin Butler.

Track 2: What's his name? Vernon.

Track 1: Vernon Jefferson Peak.

Track 2: Vernon Jefferson Peak, a radical cult leader. And he is clearly posited as like

Track 2: a Cuban on type person, um,

Track 2: but specifically very much just about like exploiting people who believe they

Track 2: have been abused, sexually abused as children or trafficked as children.

Track 2: And when he shows up at the house, uh, Joe cross walking Phoenix's character,

Track 2: he shows up at the house with walking Phoenix, his wife and the stone.

Track 2: And he starts, uh,

Track 2: telling his story and Joaquin Phoenix doesn't believe him.

Track 2: And then he has that whole thing where he starts talking about how like predators have feelings too.

Track 2: A predator can love their prey, a prey, an abuser can love.

Track 2: And it just felt so like, what are, are you trying to,

Track 2: are you trying to elide from this are

Track 2: you trying to you know take attention off of this what are you doing here man

Track 2: because again this shit is fucking the shit that has been revealed i mean and

Track 2: was revealed when he made this movie this feels not good yeah.

Track 1: I can see that i mean And I have to believe what he's actually trying to say

Track 1: is that, I mean, as you see right now, you see, like, Pam Bode and, like,

Track 1: you know, the government and right-wingers trying to obfuscate from the Epstein

Track 1: stuff, you know, deflect in different ways.

Track 1: He's like, oh, like, you know, 14 is the age, you know, like the age of like

Track 1: all these ridiculous things.

Track 1: And I think that in a positive reading of Joaquin Phoenix, he is the person

Track 1: that's unwilling to accept that his that there are these evil people and that

Track 1: probably he is a predator himself.

Track 1: You don't really have any information on his backstory. You do learn that his

Track 1: wife, Emma Stone, had gotten pregnant at a young age and then had an abortion,

Track 1: and they try to insinuate that it's by Pedro Pascal.

Track 1: She denies this. You never find out the truth. But my bet—.

Track 2: I think it's clearly the father.

Track 1: Who is?

Track 2: I think it was clearly the father. The father— Emma Stone's father.

Track 1: Oh, but who's not in the film? She's not there. He dies.

Track 2: No, he's dead.

Track 1: He dies. They have a little vigil frame in the living room.

Track 2: Yeah, he's dead when the movie starts.

Track 1: Yeah, that makes more sense.

Track 2: If he was the previous sheriff.

Track 1: Right.

Track 1: And it makes it, maybe it's one of those situations where Joaquin Phoenix knows

Track 1: that, and he is, you know, being like, well, she loved him.

Track 1: He loved her. Like, you know, kind of thing. Like the way that you try and,

Track 1: you know, deflect from this.

Track 2: Also, we can't ignore the fact that the character of Mike, one of the deputies,

Track 2: who is a, you know, an adult, he is a sheriff's deputy, was in a relationship with that girl.

Track 1: Who was 18. Who was 18. But would have been younger at the time.

Track 2: Yeah. Like he says, oh, she's 18. But we don't get ages on like anybody.

Track 2: But they are clearly portrayed as young people and not necessarily 18, I would say.

Track 2: And again, that is clearly a depiction of like an adult preying on a young person.

Track 2: An adult in power, specifically law enforcement.

Track 1: And the chef doesn't really care about that in any way.

Track 2: Doesn't care. No. I mean, well, it is made clear from one of the interactions

Track 2: that he has with Pedro Pascal that his department has historically been rife with problems.

Track 2: Corruption, excessive force, violence.

Track 1: The previous year may have raped Emma Stone.

Track 2: Maybe. I don't know. Like, I never, never seemed to me that Joaquin Phoenix's

Track 2: character was the one that did that.

Track 2: It always seemed, especially since the movie starts with him watching a video

Track 2: from somebody talking about how, like, what it's like to be,

Track 2: how you move past being in a relationship with somebody who doesn't want kids when you want kids.

Track 1: Yes.

Track 2: And he clearly wants kids, and she does not want kids, I would assume due to past trauma, though—,

Track 2: At the very end of the movie, she is pregnant and seems happy about it and we return to.

Track 2: So maybe it was Joaquin Phoenix. All that's really up in the air.

Track 1: It's hard to say, but clearly he was in love a third time.

Track 2: At the same time, the mother-in-law fucking hated him until she, you know.

Track 1: Could have used him as a pawn.

Track 2: Until she could use him, yeah. So like, I think it was the father.

Track 2: I think it was the father.

Track 1: That makes the most sense and perhaps why.

Track 1: That whole dynamic is crazy. But one thing that they did do well was the sort

Track 1: of interlaying of, you know, scrolling through Instagram and like the videos.

Track 1: Like they've really, as you said, like it's ahead of their time,

Track 1: but they depicted sort of the moment, the cultural moment of so many aspects of it.

Track 1: And, you know, you know, the lot of this, I will say like a lot of the script,

Track 1: I think, is actually pretty good.

Track 1: You know like the when when uh when the

Track 1: you know after george floyd and they're like having arguments

Track 1: in the sheriff's apartment of what happened those are the things that exactly

Track 1: what like a sheriff would say like i don't agree with the the force here but

Track 1: like we still have to maintain you know like law and order or whatever so it's

Track 1: yes it's the way the reaction of the police is exactly the reaction of the police then yeah.

Track 2: Especially like when you see them like show up at the quote-unquote protest

Track 2: it's like what there's like 20 people and they show and they're all like high

Track 2: school kids and they show up and they just start yelling and getting like,

Track 2: As someone who's been, like, the police always, always instigate,

Track 2: always incite violence and cause things to be more dangerous than they are.

Track 2: Because, let's be honest, there was, like, 20 fucking kids in the middle of

Track 2: a street. No one was driving down and heading to New Mexico.

Track 2: Like, no one's outside. And they're like, you're disturbing.

Track 2: Like, you didn't even know they were there.

Track 2: Like, you didn't even know they were there, but you have to,

Track 2: as cops always do, show up and start swinging your dick around and being like,

Track 2: you know, if you don't listen to me, I'm going to throw a tantrum.

Track 2: And when I throw a tantrum, it involves arresting people or shooting them.

Track 2: Like if you would have just driven past and like waved and then fucking got

Track 2: on your merry way, nothing would have happened.

Track 1: They probably would have stopped protesting.

Track 2: It is the story of fucking cops in America.

Track 2: They accelerate and they incite violence and cause problems where they wouldn't otherwise exist.

Track 1: The other, um, there was something else that happened with that too. Um.

Track 2: When he, when there's the second protest, when he grabs the girl's phone?

Track 1: When, no, when they, during the protest too, one of the business owners is complaining

Track 1: that like there, there was a riot and like their store had been destroyed.

Track 1: And I would bet dollars to, I would bet a million dollars that he did that to his own shop.

Track 1: And it's like, oh, they did this. Or like, even so they threw like a thing through

Track 1: his window. Like that's it.

Track 2: That was, that wasn't, that was the second time.

Track 1: Oh, you're right. It was the second protest.

Track 2: The first time they were it was

Track 2: a residential road there was no business

Track 2: it's just a fucking like empty road and

Track 2: they're like you can't do this and it's like if you would have just fucking

Track 2: gone by like nothing would have happened like you everyone would have fucking

Track 2: these teenagers would have got on their way and nothing would have happened

Track 2: and they would have proven to be as exactly as effective as every one of these

Track 2: people are who just you know show up and And the real,

Track 2: and the second protest I really feel like is the one that is the most important one because we get the,

Track 2: oh, they caused this, this riot.

Track 2: And then at the end, after Joaquin Phoenix's character gets into it,

Track 2: that the young girl takes her phone and dies.

Track 2: You see that one guy start going, the violence makes me upset.

Track 2: Everybody, we're going to, we're going to stop doing everything.

Track 2: Everybody gets to your knees.

Track 2: And it very like, and again, like it comes down to this feels like,

Track 2: what is he saying? Is he saying peaceful protest is pointless?

Track 2: Is he saying you need violent protest?

Track 2: What is he saying here? Is who is he criticizing?

Track 1: Well, I would say that him saying that is like when the Democrats all kneeled

Track 1: in Congress, you know, and we're like, oh, we stand.

Track 1: It's hard to say whether he's saying that he agrees with that person or he's

Track 1: saying that this dummy thinks that we can just be like nonviolent and we'll

Track 1: be able to pick something. Yeah, it's unclear.

Track 2: Where are we coming from here? What are you trying to tell us?

Track 2: Are you saying peaceful protest is pointless?

Track 2: Because the way, you know, and it's like, again, we come down to,

Track 2: it's like, what the fuck are you doing?

Track 2: You may, I'm like, personally, I think that we have gone, we have proceeded past the point of.

Track 2: Peaceful protest being effective, personally.

Track 1: We have long past that.

Track 2: We're long past that point, and we are at the point where Kwame Ture said,

Track 2: you know, peaceful protest only works when your oppressor has a conscience,

Track 2: and our oppressors do not have consciousness.

Track 2: And yes, I do think peaceful protest has a part.

Track 2: It has a place and an overall strategy, but to completely and utterly dismiss

Track 2: it is to miss that point. And that's what he seems to be doing.

Track 2: And it's like, again, I return to what the fuck are you doing, man?

Track 2: You're making a movie that just comes off as just deeply cynical and just kind

Track 2: of like throw up your hands. Like all of them suck.

Track 2: Everybody sucks. The Democrats, the Republicans, the people in the streets,

Track 2: the people who, you know, the people that are talking about white identity and

Track 2: how it needs to be dismantled.

Track 2: Everybody, everybody sucks. Just pack it in. Just, you know, fucking.

Track 1: Yeah. So, so this is in the, in the Wikipedia where it's talking about like

Track 1: critical response to it.

Track 1: Some people refer to it. There was a couple of critiques or,

Track 1: or, you know, reviews of it that we're talking about as kind of like,

Track 1: it's like a Western with social commentary minus any moral compass.

Track 1: And in a way, I think that's actually an accurate portrayal of it is that like,

Track 1: yes, he's trying to create a social commentary about this moment in time of 2020,

Track 1: But there is no moral compass and there is no even attempt to create one or

Track 1: offer any alternative, you know, siding with everyone.

Track 1: Everyone is sort of like he's presenting all these different little things and

Track 1: saying, you guys go figure it out.

Track 2: Yeah, I just, I find that to be kind of pathetic.

Track 1: The guy from the UK, from the Times UK, wrote, The film seems unsure of what

Track 1: it wants to say, if anything, about its central subject.

Track 1: Aster pours over the quirks and waymarks of the pandemic, but leaves the actual

Track 1: business of drama and character notably undernourished.

Track 1: And I think that's actually a perfect description.

Track 2: That is, but then we come back to the notion.

Track 2: It's like, you know what, man? If you went anti-fascist, you're pro-fascist.

Track 2: You can't, you can't fucking, you can't make a movie where the central premise

Track 2: is about the struggle between, you know,

Track 2: of people against oppressive state violence and they'd be like,

Track 2: But you know what? Just make the call on your own. It's like, fuck, man.

Track 2: Like, you really, you can't come down on a side on this?

Track 1: Did you see Civil War that came out, I guess, like, what? Maybe it was two years ago now?

Track 2: No. No, I did not. Because as we discussed, I think it will just annoy me too much.

Track 1: So it's a very, I did an episode on that. It's a very similar kind of,

Track 1: I think that movie is more interesting and I liked it more.

Track 1: Maybe I have my problem with Alex Garland in some senses too,

Track 1: and his politics and his, you know, whatever, but it's a very kind of similar

Track 1: take where you kind of have this civil war, it's in the name.

Track 1: Uh but you don't all either you

Track 1: also don't get that real it's a

Track 1: like here's the thing that's happening i'm just going to kind of like

Track 1: throw it onto your plate and then like let you

Track 1: sort of figure it out and look i'm not

Track 1: saying that every director out there has to make a movie and tell us what he

Track 1: believes and create a message that's so obvious that everyone who watches it

Track 1: will see i don't think that's interesting but at least craft a movie where when

Track 1: you're when you are thinking about it it actually has something worth thinking about i.

Track 2: Just feel like have some moral backbone like

Track 2: you know what like fuck straight up now is not the time to be making movies

Track 2: where we're like which side is right on the mask mandate which side is right

Track 2: on on like you know the murder of george floyd which side is right on this now

Track 2: it's not the fucking time like straight up like which Which side is,

Track 2: is it right to sexually abuse and traffic children?

Track 2: Or, like, now is not the fucking time, man.

Track 2: Like, have some fucking backbone. Like, have a moral backbone and fucking portray, like, you know,

Track 2: say something meaningful about what is happening in the world as fascism even

Track 2: further entrenches itself in the global superpower.

Track 1: Yeah yeah i especially given that as you said this movie came out in 20 may

Track 1: of 2025 wonder when they actually wrote the movie um it.

Track 2: Feels like centrist bullshit.

Track 1: They the movie was shot in august of

Track 1: 2023 in march of um let's

Track 1: see they're scouting in 23 they filmed the movie in

Track 1: march through may of 2024 in

Track 1: new mexico so by march and

Track 1: may of 2024 we had a pretty good idea of the resulting causes of covid and mass

Track 1: mandates and you know yeah they don't even really i guess i guess the vaccine

Track 1: was too the vaccine wasn't that wasn't out yet at this point but it.

Track 2: Wasn't out yet now well.

Track 1: It was just like a twinkle in our eye it was it was not for another eight or

Track 1: nine months after that that it came out.

Track 2: You know it makes me think of how you know years

Track 2: ago i took media training with um breakthrough news

Track 2: and at one point during said media training um the one of the people doing the

Track 2: media was guging per year uh people who are familiar who people were not familiar

Track 2: he's uh you know he's on breakthrough news which is a leftist you know a media outlet, um,

Track 2: explicitly like a Marxist media outlet.

Track 2: Um, and one of the things he points out is how, one of the things he pointed

Track 2: out is how, you know, media, mainstream media in America prides itself on being unbiased. Um.

Track 2: And we know that's bullshit, but the way it is presented as being unbiased actually

Track 2: allows them to present themselves as biased.

Track 2: Actually, what happens is they end up being biased for the status quo.

Track 2: You end up being biased for the state. You become biased for capital.

Track 2: And one of the points he makes is like, you know, as a leftist,

Track 2: as a Marxist journalist or a Marxist, you know, participating in journalism

Track 2: or producing journalistic material,

Track 2: yeah, we are biased. He's like, you know, like, we are biased.

Track 2: We are biased for the exploited, like in favor of the exploited and the oppressed.

Track 2: We are biased in favor of the working class. We are biased in favor of the oppressed

Track 2: and exploited people and against imperialism. imperialism and against capital.

Track 2: And it's like, this feels very much like the, like, I'm not being biased,

Track 2: I'm just presenting information.

Track 2: When you do that, you inevitably end up playing cover for fascism.

Track 2: You end up playing cover for the powers that be. And that's what this feels like.

Track 1: There was a period of time in my life where I listened to NPR all the time and

Track 1: i was under the belief the npr was like the one news station that was like pre,

Track 1: unbiased because like hey like it's publicly funded and

Track 1: you know they have this incentive to not be like cnn or

Track 1: not be like fox news but then you realize over time when you listen to their

Track 1: especially foreign policy it's oh who's the person giving us the information

Track 1: a source at the state department and who's the refuting person nobody and who's

Track 1: the person who paid for that ad during that commercial break? Lockheed Martin.

Track 1: Like, just to say there is no fair and unbiased media reporting in mainstream

Track 1: media. It does not exist.

Track 1: I don't know where I, I don't know. I feel like I lost the train of what you

Track 1: were saying, but I just went on a tangent there instead.

Track 2: Well, man, like it's, I mean, it's what, what you're saying is what, you know,

Track 2: like you are citing a specific example of how, like when you are quote unquote

Track 2: unbiased in this system, what you

Track 2: are doing is performing in a way that is biased in favor of the system.

Track 2: That's what you're doing. And that's what this movie does, I think.

Track 2: And yes, could I watch this movie and be like, oh, this is a criticism of Joaquin Phoenix's character.

Track 2: He is clearly the villain. He fucking assassinated Pedro Pascal's character and his son.

Track 2: But you didn't make a movie just for deeply analytical, critical, Marxist fucking nerds.

Track 2: You made a movie for mass consumption.

Track 2: And when you make a movie or when you make anything, one of the things you're

Track 2: supposed to do is understand your audience.

Track 2: And does anyone listening to this, or do you, Evan, think the mass audience

Track 2: was going to walk away from this going, yes,

Track 2: that's correct.

Track 2: That we need a Marxist analysis. We need a dialectical analysis of things so

Track 2: we can understand how both sides play the system.

Track 2: Do we think that?

Track 1: I'm going to go with a hard no.

Track 2: I'm not trying to like, you know, I'm not trying to like, you know,

Track 2: denigrate American audiences. I'm being realistic.

Track 1: I mean, to be fair and reasonable, and I think I too want this when I see some

Track 1: movies, movies are entertainment.

Track 1: They are something to be enjoyed or to talk about with your friends after you

Track 1: leave the movie or you talk about it on the podcast or you talk about it on

Track 1: Instagram, TikTok, or your parents or whatever.

Track 1: But at the same time movies that

Track 1: are doing something more than just being

Track 1: like oh it's this you know i'm trying

Track 1: to think of like a very you know the problem is that no movie is

Track 1: not political even if the goal wasn't to

Track 1: be that such you know marvel movies are political most disney movies

Track 1: are political in some way yeah the question

Track 1: is in a way

Track 1: it's almost like treating your audience with like disrespect sometimes and

Track 1: in this way I kind of think it goes that way like

Track 1: you're you're kind of telling your audience like don't think too deeply

Track 1: about this this is kind of just how it was and how it happened

Track 1: I don't know maybe Ari Aster wanted people to think about things more deeply

Track 1: but if he wanted that he should have made a better movie like I don't think

Track 1: it's a bad I don't think it's a bad movie I originally gave it three and a half

Track 1: stars in the letterbox I think I lean closer to three stars,

Track 1: if I'm being honest as I'm talking about it.

Track 1: So it's not a bad movie. It just has problems.

Track 2: I don't think it's a bad, like, again, I don't think it's a bad movie.

Track 2: I do think it is fucking like 20 years too early.

Track 2: Like this movie was made too soon to the actual events it is portraying.

Track 2: And it also, and I do stand by, like, you know, have some moral fucking Backbone,

Track 2: man, come down on the side and make it clear.

Track 1: Like, or if you're not going to come down on a side, at least,

Track 1: well, yeah, the thing that, the reason that I think that most movie directors

Track 1: don't do that, one is studio pressure,

Track 1: two, even if they wanted to do it, they don't push back enough on the studio

Track 1: to actually get what they want, and three, I think that they don't actually

Track 1: want to do that because they're making it for money.

Track 1: They're making, most directors want to make money from their movies so they can make more movies.

Track 1: And maybe at some point eventually they can make enough money where they can

Track 1: make the movie they really want to make. You know, we talked about this on Black Panther.

Track 1: Maybe Ryan Coogler made Black Panther so he can make enough money to make Sinners.

Track 1: And if you know what, if that's the case, good.

Track 1: He made Sinners. Good job. Thank you.

Track 2: This movie was produced by A24.

Track 2: Yeah. This was not produced by fucking Sony.

Track 2: This was not produced by Paramount. This is not.

Track 2: This is not a studio that has historically, you know, kind of like...

Track 1: Yeah, you're right. But can I also say that there's a lot of critique I've heard

Track 1: about... I don't know enough about this to say exactly, but there are some folks

Track 1: who criticize A24 as kind of being the sort of private equity for moviemaking.

Track 2: True, true.

Track 1: But they are still letting these movies be made on a more creative basis than

Track 1: like Warner Brothers would.

Track 2: Yeah. Like.

Track 1: But your point is true. I mean, you're right.

Track 2: I mean, Civil War was made.

Track 1: A24, yeah.

Track 2: With A24. And Civil War, well, from what you're saying, I'm not, you know.

Track 2: But like the fact that it is you know less wishy-washy from what you said than

Track 2: this i feel like says something.

Track 1: Yeah maybe.

Track 2: I'm wrong i again i have not seen it so sometimes i like to spare my brain aggravation.

Track 1: I mean those are movies i mean like i mean i

Track 1: if you're listening to this and you haven't seen eddington yet i would actually

Track 1: say you should still watch it while i don't think it was my favorite movie i've

Track 1: seen all year or will ever see for sure i think it's still worth watching in

Track 1: the sense that it at least if anything for the last 40 minutes of the movie,

Track 1: which are like pretty awesome you know i'll be you know that that part of the

Track 1: movie was great like they probably could have made this movie in two hours instead

Track 1: of two and a half and i'm not like i anti long movie guy you know fuck it if

Track 1: it's three hours and it's really good go for it But if it's three hours and it sucks.

Track 2: Dude, this movie is definitely longer than it needed to be.

Track 1: I just don't know why you needed as much setup as you did in the first, you know,

Track 1: part of it but.

Track 2: Anyway the only thing i can think of is like it very like accurately portrayed

Track 2: the way it felt during the pandemic of just time almost had no meaning.

Track 1: Time really did have no meaning i feel like the this the entire 2020 and even

Track 1: into most of 2021 kind of all felt like a fever dream yeah i think back to some

Track 1: of the like that it's a weird time for that's.

Track 2: The only thing i can think of.

Track 1: I mean not to say the fact that like what three million people died in between

Track 1: in America and abroad and mostly because of people like Joaquin Phoenix yeah

Track 1: uh yeah I don't know any uh any last uh thoughts on uh Eddington like.

Track 2: I said I think honestly the most the thing I kept coming back to is I just think

Track 2: this movie was it's it was made too soon.

Track 1: Too soon yeah like the whole meme like oh like you're saying something too soon

Track 1: well maybe this was in some ways it's almost positive that it was out sooner

Track 1: if only maybe that would lead other directors to make I don't know,

Track 1: I'd like to see a different director make a movie about that period of time

Track 1: maybe in a couple years from now but make a different movie.

Track 2: Yeah, and I also think that,

Track 2: The question of the sex, the child sex trafficking, I think, is—.

Track 1: Won't age well.

Track 2: Won't age well. It already didn't age well.

Track 2: And the fact that it comes off as being dismissive in this movie,

Track 2: and for someone involved in Hollywood to do that feels questionable at best.

Track 1: I wouldn't say when I was watching it, I was brushing past that,

Track 1: but I was sort of like, my thought was like, why does this need to be in the movie?

Track 1: Like, that was another 20 minutes that they easily could have just like not had.

Track 1: Like, it doesn't necessarily, I guess it's-

Track 2: It felt like it needed to be there because it was like, I want to capture everything of 20.

Track 1: Yeah, yeah, I guess that's true.

Track 2: It's like, well, you know what? If you can't do this incredibly fucking important,

Track 2: deep, like, if you can't do this subject justice, you should not fucking include it.

Track 1: That's fair uh i don't i have nothing left that

Track 1: i think i can say i will say that if you want

Track 1: to hear the discussion on the movie civil war we discussed it's episode 121

Track 1: you can just search at left of the projector.com for that episode i thought

Track 1: it was a good conversation about that movie and sort of the problems with it

Track 1: as well but um for bill and myself um you've been listening to left of the projector

Track 1: and we'll catch you next time catch.

Track 2: You next time folks.