Hi, I'm Nina underst.

I'm Anna Toonk. Welcome to how to be human, a podcast that explores the common and often confusing themes of humaneness

on this episode Anna and I discuss identity.

Take a seat clear mind and let's chat LA. I was gonna say don't join them. But my brain was like, we forgot. Where are we? It's very, very rainy here. And it's funny. My computer has American time on it, because that helps me because that's generally who I'm communicating with, you know, when I'm on my laptop, but I'm like, It's afternoon here, but it is bright and early where you are.

Yeah, it's beautiful. And Sunny. Oh, my God. Yeah. And fall. I love it. It's the best time of year except for Christmas.

I love fall. It's been my love

keeps asking if we could watch the Gilmore Girls.

That's very funny. Gilmore Girls. I like it. Yeah, it's funny, because when I got to Italy, it was the very beginning of September, and it was hot. You know, it was like 90s. And it was like, I guess right around the equinox that it was really good. The the timer went off. And it's like, alright, that's a wrap on summer, we're going to need to change these leaves. Like, I feel like we see it more gradually in New York, whereas it's like, like this one tree has like no leaves on it. It was like overnight, it was like very funny. And like the fig tree. I've told you I've collected many of fig from now. It's like most of its leaves have dropped. Like, it's just been wild to see how quickly Yeah, season changes in a different place, you know, has been kind of kind of cool. But

while you're blocked out from everything in the city, like upstate, that's it's the same. It just was freezing overnight, the leaves have changed a lot of them and it was summer, but I feel like in the city or just you see like a trade.

That's true. I usually do notice it just don't know what's going yeah, like eat whether I'm like going to see you or if I'm like going to my mom's like, then I'm like, oh, whoa, the trees are changing.

But yeah, you're right. Like, why haven't from all sides?

Until it's like, unequivocally here. You know, I feel like in the city, it is easy dinner like is it happening? Is it not? So

I'm excited to talk about this today. I feel like these things are so so at these topics, just keep I just keep laughing every time I pick up my phone to prep or think about it. I'm like, huh, so I would love to get into it.

Let's do it. We are talking about identity today, which I don't know about you, I can never spell correctly on the first try. I always I feel

like that about so many words. But this one, this one I think I got I always want

to make it in identity I think. But according to our friend Merriam Webster, definition of identity, the distinguishing character or personality of an individual, the relation as established by psychological identification, the condition of being the same was something described or asserted, establish the identity of stolen goods was the example. sameness of essential or generic character in different instances, sameness and all that constitutes the objective reality of a thing, oneness, an equation that is satisfied for all the values of the symbols, and then they have an all caps identity element, and we're not getting I'm not clicking on it, it feels like a trap. But something that I thought was interesting though, when I was finding a definition that didn't feel weird, was that the big thing as it relates to us like as people and psychologically is personal identity versus social identity. And I found this really kind of interesting article on why studios.com which is a design studio that is like really driven by like people and user service, user experience and interfaces on this stuff. So they did all this research and have this really great, helpful infographic but like in breakdown of as so as we discussed identity we must consider two types of identity psychology, personal identity and social identity. Our personal identity or self identity is the answer to one of the most important questions all humans ask about life who am I? personal identity is our concept of how we think Have ourselves. This involves factors that we can control, like our decisions or interests and those we can't, such as our families and race. Our personal identity is how we perceive ourselves. But our social identity is how others perceive us. People recognize us by our characteristics within our town, school career, or another community context, society will identify each person from these characteristics and place the individual in a collective group with others that share those characteristics. Some social identities might be defined by our marital financial, occupational, religious or behavioral status, social identity map and an individual's identity. And personality is made up of a social identity, it is a sum of parts that define who we are based on our affiliation with social groups that define our identity. A basic social identity map is constructed using a combination of three different levels, core, elemental traits, behaviors, and attitudes that make us unique as an individual behaviors, values, beliefs, chosen characteristics that we can choose to describe our status, traits and skills, given attributes or conditions that we have no control over. I thought that was really interesting, because obviously, when I was thinking about this, and thinking about, like, my own thoughts on identity, and then how I think about the identities of others, I was grateful for the work that ye Studios did, to lay that out in terms of personal and social identity, which makes a lot of sense. And you and I both like, you know, have, I think, a pretty chill social identity, and that we get to be like, you know, white women in a rural world that favors that, you know, so I don't think a ton about my social identity, except for trying to, like not be terrible. I definitely think a lot more about my personal identity and think more of the social identity of others. I feel like,

yeah, Sam, and yeah, that's mean, not naming it social identity. But in my mind, just prepping for this, I was thinking about, you know, obviously, sexual orientation and trans people and people of color and, and just, there's just such a, like you said, I think we fly under the radar in a lot of ways. I mean, obviously, as women, there's, you know, a whole bag of shit that were dealt, but for the most part, I think you can't, it's it's so interesting, though, I feel like a lot of the people that I work with, are women and our white women and our pre privileged white women. And for a long time, that drove me a little bit crazy, because I wanted to work with different populations, and I just kind of accepted, you know, that the people that are coming to me, I'm meant to work with in some way, but besides point, it's still not easy. You know, it's, I struggle with this in all sorts of subjects and areas, but just because our, you know, the problems that exist outside of us are maybe much bigger and much more, you know, life threatening, in some ways, right? Someone's my identity, for the most part is not my social identity is not going to put me in extreme danger, although it could as a woman, but somebody who is trans obviously has a whole different set of issues that they have to think about, and work through. But that being said, what my point was with a lot of the women that I work with, they're still like, so many identity issues, so many struggles in the in, like, how they identify who am I? What am I? What is my purpose? Why am I here? Like all of this? So we all we all have a complicated relationship with it. Right? Yeah,

I think we do. But I think that I felt similarly, you know, and for a while to professionally, I was like, a little bit of, like, kind of like the fashion world a bit like, they're like, go to Taro person. And I was like, Ah, I feel kind of weird about this, you know, like, and it was tricky, because obviously, I needed money. And I was building a career, but like, I was, like, I don't, I don't know how much I want to lean into this. Like, just because I could do this. And I understand this kind of world in some ways. Like, I'm not in this to just tell privileged people how to make more privileged decisions, you know, or, I don't know, it didn't feel like helping people in some ways, but then I was like, Well, I guess we all seek healing from people that are also familiar to us, you know that in a lot of ways to with people with really different identities in my own like, I mean, even me doing my own due diligence to really try to see them and show up for them. I mean, I still there's a lot I don't get it, you know, and I'm like I if I was trans, I would probably go to a trans reader, you know, like, why not? I would, you know, like, I think we do. We do that, you know, but I felt similarly to you as and I was like, Well, we, the people come to us for the right reasons. But I think that what I wish a lot of people in positions, I guess of privilege would understand is like, like, yeah, there's issues of identity that come up. But I wish also to sort of like a lot of other things, the topics we've talked about, like, I really think how much you choose to buy into it, especially when you don't have things that are like, charged in our society. Like, I think you have to be real with yourself of what is it you need to go in, you know, go in deeper, and figure out about yourself, and what is it is like a real fucking luxury to be debating?

It's so funny, I literally looked at myself in the mirror yesterday, and said, you don't have any real problems.

Yeah, like, I think it's good to remember that for real. Yeah,

I do, too. Because I was this is this is the absurd, you know, and again, it's like, in the moment, it feels very stressful. But I signed up for I was doing a couple trainings, and one I was like, I really want to do personal training, training. So I signed up for it. It is, you know, the most respected in the industry, I started taking it. And I immediately brought back to high school where I feel like the dumbest person ever. I cannot understand why. I mean, of course, there there's anatomy in any body. Yeah, you know, any movement class as there should be this when I tell you that there's 900 pages of information, and a lot of it is this intense science that I my brain just will not accept, it just keeps rejecting, keeps rejecting. And I'm like Nina, being a quitter is different than looking at something and asking yourself, why are you even here? What do you even want? Do you want to be a personal trainer? Right? No, I don't. So why are you banging your head against the wall, feeling really horrible about something, trying to build something up or add another certification or learn something, but also it just it, I was lost in the shit and I was feeling so bad about myself? Because of it. And then I had to sit down and be like, Okay, what do you actually want to focus on what is actually important to you and, and remind myself like, this is not a real problem. You don't have to do, right. Just don't do it. If it's making you feel bad, and you don't actually want to be that. What Why are you creating a problem where there is no problem. But one of the things, there's an article that I have pulled up from the New Yorker, how social media shapes our identity,

I know that I know that article, and, uh huh. I'm glad you're referencing that. Because I read then I, when did that come on, like a couple months ago? And was like, oh,

like, No, this one's from 2019. Actually, I'm sure there's been another one. So, you know, it's just like, we get so caught up right in and I'll read some some excerpts for here. But we get so caught up in other people's identity, or what we think we should be or what we think we're not or, and I think then it's this juxtaposition of me thinking about this stuff. And then looking at this woman that I know, from, you know, working with her one time anyway, her her mother's Iranian, and like, post them posting at these rallies, and I'm like, at these protests, and I'm like, Well, this is a real problem. Yes, this is somebody fighting to actually exist. That's

a real issue of identity. You know, like, exactly, exactly, I think, like, what you're the example you're you're giving is like exactly what frustrates me all the time about myself and others of it's like, what are you getting so often I think we confuse I think identity with ego and just ideas of like, I'm gonna bang my head against the wall like trying to do this, you know, training or whatever. Because I've decided I want to be this thing, or I've gotten really invested with this idea. And I've like, you know, it's kind of like when you fantasize about someone you go on like one date with and you're like, well, I could really see myself with like the art director, boyfriend and data that in it blank. Yeah, but like you put all this attachment on Like, you're the one who gave your identity over to that, you know, like, that's not actually what was happening. You know what I mean? And I think people want identity often to be really quick. And just based on like, a decision, you know, versus like, I think for somebody to really be your identity, like, it takes a little while and you've got to settle into, you know, settle into it. And social media has completely like, fried our brains with like, these people we watch who are like, I'm a cloud. I'm a clown now. Nope. Now I'm an author. No, now I'm there in your like, Are you any of it? I mean, that's my attitude with that, you know, like, I'm all for, like, evolution and being a million things. But I also the the rapid newness that people are trying to evolve. Makes me think they didn't really spend any time with anything, you know. So I don't know what their identity is. It makes me more confused.

I'm working really hard on not projecting shit on to other people. Because it's not Oh, there you are.

Chill. tastic years.

Yeah. All right. I am Anna, because that's my new identity. Okay. I just I don't feel good. And it's a waste of fucking time. But I find myself being like, exactly like, Listen, I'm frustrated with a lot of things about the youth. Yeah, but this whole US, you hit the nail on the head, which is the ego that we can all get caught up in? Yeah, exactly. What What am I doing here. And what was so funny is I sat down and wrote some things down. And I'm like, what I actually really want to focus on is this, this this. And as soon as I called the, the institution canceled the program, blah, blah, took it off my plate, not only did I feel a weight off, but I lit it. And this is going to sound really like magical thinking, I don't know what's going to come of it or whatever. But it was just a nice little nudge from the universe. In my opinion, I get an email that some from someone who you know, wants to work together and blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, exactly, just focus. Why are you trying to force yourself into some so you identity or some ego driven thing so that you can what prove to yourself that you're good at science now like that you you can have all the certifications, you you can't I in my opinion, also, I can't be good at everything. And I don't need to be right. So I have to choose what feels good and what I want to grow. And this is something that I think I think about you a lot. I mean, I think you're all over the place, like in a good way where you have your hand and everything. And I It makes my brain hurt a little bit because I'm like, How could you be over here, but you're over there. But you're over here. But it's they're all they're all related? And you don't you see things through in a very thorough way. And I and you're, I think you're slow to do that. As much as you're fast to kind of like find things and be in the project. I think you're slow in, in the best way of like, here's where I am, here's where I want to go, what are all the steps in between? And do I really want to do those steps,

I think because I take identity really seriously? You know, like, I Yeah, open a household, like where it was important. And my mom really was like, What are your identities? Like, this is what happens when your mom is a is a youngin you know, that she would be like Anna your shadow showing, you know, and stuff like that. And yeah, and so my mom also too was like, very big on like, she was very like anti posers. And I'm not saying that people, you know, I'm not saying if you quit stuff, or you don't see things, that's not what I'm saying. But I think for me, if I'm in I'm in, and generally I know it'll be hard for me to do something else if I don't explore something. So that's why it's like, I think it's good to just do you stop and give yourself permission. Like, you know, something I say to you all the time is like, it's an experiment. Like, let's see, like, who knows, you know, because like, we all think about this stuff in our head. But until you sign up, like until you do it, you don't know, you know? And like that, to me is the real thing. That's the time to like, explore it with your identity and go don't really give a shit about being a personal trainer, you know, like, Does this really literally matter in any way to what I care about and you go, no, then like, why am I terrorizing myself, you know, like, and I think because like the way I was brought up of like that, like drawing things back to and there was blessings and curses with that because I'd also be like, I want to be you know, like an archaeologist. My mom's like Did you're not good at science, you know, like, it also was a dream killer as well. But it was lying. You know, but my mom would always be like, you can't really claim something, unless you really know about it, and you've really spent time with it. And you know, the world of it. And I think I can drive myself crazy with that, and not give myself credit, where it's due, and be like, Oh, I don't know, or whatever. And it's like, you do know, you're highly trained in that, like, Why are you pretending like you're not, you know, but, um, I just think it's, I

think you have the opposite problem. Yeah. Like, I

just think it's like a different way of being. But I think it's also why I feel very secure in my identity. And I think it's also why it's something that in a lot of my friendships, I think people come to me with a lot of things around identity. And clients, really, because I'm like, you know, what, as it comes to personal identity, I'm like, it's on us. We could do this, we get to decide it. But I think where a lot of like, discomfort comes for us that isn't, you know, isn't trauma, Rama, but like, does make us uneasy, is we're trying on identities, we know, deep down don't belong to us. And it's like, Well, you got to try it on. There's no, you know, like, you got to try something. But then I think some people get really stuck and stuff, you know, and that, yeah, that I think I know how uncomfortable that is. So I think I've been vigilant about it in my life in a different way, you know?

I also think that there's a business of selling identity. Absolutely. And that has confused people and manipulated people to know. And so, you know, obviously, that's not a new thing. Marketing is about that, right? And if you think about really, Kate, who I literally talked on this podcast all the time, and she's an Aries, and is like, love to hear it. Love to hear a shout out. She mentioned this podcast, is it a call? Is it a call? Yeah. Have you ever listened to it? Uh huh. Okay, well, so there's one about this, like, really popular exercise class or No, there's not one about this one. But we want them to do it about this one. Because it sells I mean, many of them do. Right? Which I'm not going to call out because I'm not an asshole. But a lot of them do. And it's not always bad. Right. But I think that's been part of my issue with the whole movement. culture in general is I have no interest in being an influencer, right? I have no interest in selling people, my body or selling people my style as a way to get my body. That's not. That's not why I teach movement. So but it's very fascinating. And terrifying to see all of these classes being like, have this booty have this, or even now selling the spirituality, right, selling the experience, trying to make people cry in class, which by the way, is pretty irresponsible. I mean, it's on in a big way. It's Listen, as somebody who's taught for a long time, it is beautiful to see someone moved in a class, I will say that when things click into into place, and they're like, it's the music, it's the movements and breath, and I see them having an experience, I'm very moved by it. But to try to elicit that response is really irresponsible. Because what you're doing in my opinion is called I feel like that. Is it SNL. No, no, it's the from The Good Wife. And there's a judge, did you ever watch the good way? Okay, so there's, there's this side note, this judge who's always like, built, they'll say their arguments. And she's, she's like, in your opinion, and they're like, in my opinion, Your Honor, like over and over and over again. But it's you're trying to call up trauma for people so that you can feed your ego and your identity can be tied to healing them or them meeting you. And that's sick and twisted. It's out of my mild insecurity,

or, I mean, I think it's out of high ego, low self esteem, that you're like, rather than trusting what you're offering, you've got to like, do some wild shit to get people triggered in your class to be like, I did that. Look how powerful I am or something and it's wildly irresponsible.

Yeah, it feels I've been really kind of thinking a lot about facade marketing, and how a lot of people put out these images and are selling these things to be to us that maybe, I don't know if they believe it. Maybe they do, like you said high ego. But when you meet that person, right, there's such a disconnect, or you hear about them being, you know, behind closed doors, an absolute nightmare, because they're, they're selling an image and that's not who they actually are. But we have become so all conditioned to note to look at I was looking at these two fitness influencers right? Neither one of them 7 million and some odd million subscribers. They make millions, neither one of them are certified to teach movement.

I mean, that's the stuff you know, my attitude with that, like, I have no fucking patience for it that neither one of them are certified to teach. I don't have in there that that's an it's so wrong on multiple levels and is something I don't understand about our culture. I don't understand. And

it's, it's baffling. It's baffling. I'm not saying that everybody has to, you know, you don't need a pH Terrell's obviously unregulated like, yeah, all this, like, of course, but if you're an ethical person, the reason I wanted to do the training was because I literally use weights in my classes. So like, I should know, very, that was my thinking, too. Yeah, the fact that people are like teaching whole exercise programs, up to millions of people and don't have proper certification in any movement. But it's the obsession with just being the star and we've sold Yeah, what is that? Yeah,

well, there. I mean, there's, there's someone who has built an empire out of New York. And one part a big part of her origin story is that she just started doing these classes in the basement of her building. And people just loved that and tried bad guy, though, right? I don't I don't remember if that's part of her origin story. And you know, people just sort of cling on it was just like a miracle and all this stuff. And then like, weaves out her fucking hedge fund husband,

and like, Oh, we're getting so we're going to dangerous territory.

How's that not part of your identity? I mean, like, I come from wealth in I openly admit that shit. Because you know what, I don't want you to get to know me better and know, my work or whatever. And then go, wait, this pitch. You know, Mike has a trust fund? Yeah, I do. You know, and like, if you want to, I

told someone you were rich the other day? I hope you don't mind. I mean, they were asking about you, and Italy. And I was like, Yeah, I mean, and what you do, and then something about money. I was like, Anna comes from money. Like, don't worry about it. Yeah. And they're like, if, and I think I don't think that's a bad thing.

Oh, I mean, it is what it is, you know, I'm also not gonna like, I'm not really open to people being like, Ethridge, like, you're human garbage in regards to it. I'm like, Give me a break, anyone in my position would do the same shit. Night, I am going to be aware of it. You know, like, I am going to move with awareness of that. I'm not going to edit it out of my origin story. You know, and that's why like, I'm, you know, I've owned my apartment since I was like, 22 years old. Yes. Wow, that's pretty unusual. New York, you know, I've always been very open, like, yeah, that's because my mom carved out money for my dad's death. You know, like, she gave me an inheritance. My dad didn't even think to do that, you know, like, my mom did it, you know, like, I'm upfront about that stuff. Because it's also like, it, I think that's why like, you know, I do have that strong sense of self identity, because it's like, I keep myself honest, in that respect, and I'm not saying I'm perfect, or I handle it, you know, great all the time, or whatever. But so many of these people that we that we see, I think with these really strong digital identities, like, in real life, I don't think that their sense of self is actually as strong as their, you know, representing, it's easy to put up a bunch of images and be like, That is me, you know, it's much harder to like, live it in and really, like be about it. That is that's harder. Yeah.

Well, you don't, you

can hide in a lot of ways, you know. And so, there apparently five important parts of your identity, which you went over a little bit, but I want to go into a little bit more in depth, race, ethnicity, gender, age, sexual orientation, physical attributes, personality, this is more than five political affiliations, religious beliefs, professional identities, and so on, which is the one that you personally attached to the most.

It's funny, you're saying this because when back when Maha rose rip existed, they brought in Erica Hart to come and offer Yeah, and it was amazing because they put up these posts with with that, like gender, sexual orientation. You know, I think gender presentation like similar to that, and Erica was like, Go stand by the one. You know, you think like, what, like, what do you think people notice about you first and then like, what do you align with first? And it was like, it was really fascinating. I think for me, mine is gender, I think I think about being a woman, first and foremost, a lot. And then probably physical being in a larger body. I think that would probably be my second. And then race in terms of like, trying not to be bad. No, no, I would say,

of being aware of that she's so full, full time.

Being aware of whiteness, and trying, you know, like, I really do. I know, it sounds like because I can come on here be a real bitch. But like, more of my time than you would think y'all is about trying to be a good person. You know, it occupies a lot of my time. And that tells you maybe like, how big of a con I'd be if I didn't do all that work, because I'm still pretty bitchy to be trying to be a good person all the time. But like, I think

that's why we're, I think that's why we work. Yeah. Like, I'm

just trying, he's like, I'm just trying to be honest. But, um, because I think we're both just trying to be trying, yeah,

like, you know,

I don't have answers, just just I'm willing to keep showing up and trying to be better. Like, that's, that's it, you know, but um, what was interesting is this person who actually now is a very famous meditation person who I cannot stand and I will tell you off my code is that you can guess did this whole performance, it was like, I don't under I don't understand, I don't understand. I see the oneness of people. I see the oneness. This is also someone who was a gay man. So I would think they would understand what the point that Erica was trying to make, you know, of this exercise. And what I've learned that Erica said was like, well, y'all are all healers, right? You know, like, your healers are educators, even if you don't understand and she's like, and I understand a lot of like, your work and spirituality is seeing the oneness and, and the divinity in all people, but she's like, anyone who's coming to you, in a brown or black body, this is what they're dealing with, this is what they're coming to you with. And she made this really good point of like, it's not just about like, us, or like, I see the oneness, you know, like, it is about like this, this awareness. And I think something that I've had to work on is like, I don't think a ton about my own social identity, but I think a lot about other people's, and maybe have too much vigilance of, like trust people to, like, navigate themselves or so I'm always trying to, like, a big thing for me is, you know, normalization not stigmatize, you know, stigmatization, so like, I don't want to be like, if someone is in the room, you know, and I happen to notice, like, it was really interesting for me in this workshop, because one of the educators was also trans, that Erica was teaching with, and was like, don't say, because you notice, I'm in your workshop, and I'm trans, don't then ask everyone for their pronouns, like, I will know, I'll know that you're doing that, because I'm trans. Like, you should be asking pronouns because, you know, that's a way for everyone to be safe and stuff like that. And I was like, Oh, that's a good way to think about it, that sometimes when we're trying to be, I think, normalizing or accepting or, you know, say, like, I see you and accept people's identity, we're also making it really clear that it's like, not a normal part of that it's our first time. And it's like, also to just because someone's like, trans, like, you don't know who's non binary in the room, you know, like, so you can't be like, hyper focused sometimes on this stuff. It's like, it's good. I think, you know, like, I understand why people can get bogged down sometimes with identity politics, but it's like, if we could all just, like, get through some of this, like, you know, growing pains together, it's like, we could make this such a inclusive and safer society for like, so many people, you know, it's like, I hate when, like, boomers get all upset about pronouns, because I'm like, It's not about the fucking pronoun. I mean, it is, but it's not, it's about the fact that like, trans people are subjected to violence, like, that's the larger issue. It's like, we're starting on this small thing to get to the larger things, you know,

upgrade. And I think, why one of the reasons why people on the, you know, the side that this is not the side but are of the coin that are not asking or afraid to ask, is because they want to appear as if they have it together and they know you know, everything, even if that's not what they're consciously thinking about. It's uncomfortable to learn something new and to possibly fuck up in that way, you know, but there's no other way to learn than to try to just get out of it. your comfort zone, you know? And if, and what a small thing that we can do, right? As people who have that power or privilege or whatever in the room to, to just get over ourselves a little bit and not, and put ourselves out there and say, try something that might not come naturally, but will make other people feel so hopefully seen or understood a little bit or say, Yeah, you said so I mean, that's, that's a really I think, small app.

I agree. It's such a basic kindness you could give to another person and have no idea. Also, like the effect it can have, like just saying to someone, I see you and can really give this to you, you know, it's powerful. And when I got to see Rachel Karakol at the wing, and she said something, she said two things that really, really stuck with me where she said, there were things being called racist, you know, that she was like, so often people don't say anything, or like, you know, don't call people out or whatever, because they're, like, afraid or whatever. Like, there were things being called racist, like, being racist. And I was like, great point, you know, of how often we're all being like, self protective. I don't think you're that way. I think you you, you know, like, there could be like, a room full of like, I don't know, like, like, mafiosos. And if they were being shitty, you would like story be like your beach today? Where? I'm not afraid. Yeah. Like, I think you're different. But I would say most people, I think, you know, like, Well, I mean, I come from the south, where there is a lot of like, don't make people uncomfortable. You know? And it's like, No, we should make racist, uncomfortable, we should make people you know, so that was one of her things. And then she also really illustrated the point of like, you know, like, your discomfort comes like at the expense of like, my safety, like, what is ultimately more important, like, your discomfort or my safety, like, blind people are dying. And it's like, That's true, too. You know, when you hear people saying, Oh, well, I just feel like everything's so PC or bla bla bla, it's like, Are you are you from a group that's been murdered? I don't think so. Like, so I don't

think those people okay. It's not

not a

I don't think those people care. Oh, no, I

think a lot like but think about I think a

lot of them do. But the people who are literally like, can sit, I'm sorry. But there's, there's, there's, there's peep there are people that I see right now, who I just am like you, there's no way you care about human life. If it's not, maybe it's not even just white life, it's just white male life, or whatever. Because they've seen the death. They've seen the destruction they've seen, everything's being shifted and taken and mutilated and No, buddy, who's who's saying, like, you know, but I don't want critical race theory taught in school. They, I don't think they care that people are dying. I really don't. I just like, I don't think the Republicans who are voting against abortion care of that women are dying.

I don't think they care. But I don't think they understand the implication of that lack of care, you know, and I thought it through and I also thought there are a lot of people who especially, you know, on the coast, who pat themselves on the back and because they recycle and, you know, donate to a GoFundMe here and there, they really think they're like living it, you know, and like,

well, I have something to say about that. The what? Yeah. Well, I wanted to say something before, go ahead.

The amount of people who are shocked that Trump won in 2016 was like,

really eye opening to me, but it was so stupid.

Oh, we're plugged in in different ways. And again, I'm not saying like, I'm like, I'm, you know, this social justice warrior or whatever. I'm not I'm really I think much more of a humanitarian and like, Can we all just be cool? Like, I really think I'm more like a hippie To be honest, but I was really shocked. And that to me, showed me like the problem in my opinion is not the out and out racist, like, obviously those people aren't good, you know, lock them up. However, the problem to me

are jail isn't the answer.

You know, but the problem to me are the same people who are like, you know, who are like ducking jury duty, for example, where I'm like, we need to be on those journeys. Like, you need people who Are who were seeking equality or what you know, like, I It's like, some of that stuff like, like bums me out or like, you know, essentially if they if they had to, like leave their bubble in some way and make themselves uncomfortable in some way, whether that's like really reading a book or like going to a protest or like doing something or going, I don't know, even to like a lecture or whatever. I don't see that happening with a lot of these people, you know, that were like, I can't believe he won. I'm like, really, because like, I was pretty nervous about it the whole time. Like, I was like, core America is really filled with people who are going to back this motherfucker. You know, like, I felt very sure about that, you know, that that was really, um, it showed me how, how, how, I guess, easy it is if you're not affected, to not really care, you know, like to care socially, maybe, maybe, and care in a in a broad sense of like, yeah, that's bad. And I don't want that to happen, but to care enough to do anything, you know, that seems to be a different line.

I feel personally attacked by jury duty.

But I mean, I listened, but it's like, no,

you're right. You're You're absolutely right. That I'm just saying. I agree. I agree. I think that that's something that I need to work on is being better about that. But what I was going to say is how much of this there's a quote I want to read from Psychology Today. It says however, bla bla bla bla, people choose their identities. Instead, they simply internalize the values of their parents or the dominant culture. Example The pursuit of materialism, power and appearance. Sadly, these values may not be aligned with one's authentic self, and create an unfulfilling life in contrast, fulfilled people are able to live a true life to their values and pursue meaningful goals, lack of a coherent sense of identity will lead to uncertainty, uncertainty about what one wants to do in life. I think that has so much to do with what we're talking about, because there's so many people who have just fallen into the dominant culture, right. And they're not thinking for themselves. They're not living for themselves. So when you ask them to, to consider someone else, they, you're like, a million steps ahead. Right? Yeah. And that feels like how do we bridge that gap? Because if some my neighbor who I constantly honk and flip off, because they have like a q&a on fucking flag. I'm like, you're making me look bad. You're on my street. And I just say that anyway. They, I'm assuming, I will say that, that a lot of people around here who are from here, maybe they're not from here, but I'm pretty sure they're from here. A lot of people who, you know, are born and bred upstate New York, or, you know, have the same kind of mindset, like, I'm sure that's how it is a lot in the south, right? There's certain things you just don't do, or you do or you don't believe or you believe or are segregated. And so do those people actually know how to think for themselves to think like, what are we asking of them? If I'm like, Who are you? Are they going to repeat something to me? Often, I feel like when I'm talking to someone like that, which is very rare, I will admit, they're repeating something to me that they've heard, they're just, they're just regurgitating information. That's not from them. It's from Yeah, or personal, like the Bible, or, you know, their parents. Obviously, we're all exactly. So it just feels so far away sometimes to ask people to get so in tune with themselves, because you have to do that in order to be in tune with other people, I

think, oh, come I mean, 100%. And I think that once again, money comes into this, you know, like, money and resources, you know, like, my mom raised us in this like, kind of wacky way, you know, and part of why we were able to sort of, like, say, Fuck off to a lot of like, the southern convention, is because we came from wealth. So it didn't matter. You know, we weren't dependent on social acceptability for money, you know, or work or whatever, you know, like me, my dad a little bit more because he did he did work for for people. And so my mom kind of played the role of like, executive way to facilitate him and all of that, but, you know, we were that's a privilege. I think it is a privilege to be yourself, you know, whether that's Um, you know, like literally having access to resources, or it not being a threat to your survival, to go against whatever the deal is, whether that's, you know, we hear it a lot from people who want to be more spiritual or creative, but like, live in small towns, you know, and things like that. And I do feel free for people, but I think it's always available, I think it's just, obviously, it's easier if it's modeled for you, you know, if you are given examples, or, you know, like, your parents have a strong sense of self, I think that that's really helpful. You know, like, one of my friends, part of why, like, she still works a lot and stuff, and she's like, it's really important to me, like for my daughter, that she sees her mom out working, you know, and not just doing household tasks at home, and stuff. And I was, like, that's pretty cool. That's an interesting, you know, like, take on motherhood and working on, you know, like, a different facet of that identity of motherhood and things like that. But, um, it's also a privilege in the sense that she makes enough that she can fill in the gaps, you know, like, she could make that decision for herself, you know, that I so I think that, I think kind of no matter what, though, it's always going to be hard. And I think also, too, intelligence is also a bit of a factor, you know, that, like, I don't want to be like, you know, if someone's, if someone's a little bit thick, you know, but sometimes ignorance is bliss in this for reals, that you like, sometimes, you know, you'll be talking to someone and be like, Do you ever worry about blah, and they're like, No, I never thought about that a day in my life. And you're like, I must be nice, you know, that I think sometimes, like, if you if you're content, and you're not harming anyone, does it matter? You know, like, I think there's also this, it's a bit of like, you know, like belly button, navel gazing, you know, sometimes with identity of, I mean, you know, that I get frustrated with girlfriends sometimes that are like, who am I? Am I this identity, and my, and I'm, like, be it or don't, like, you know, like, doing or don't like, all this torture, to me is like, that's almost like, become a replacement for a personality, you know. And I think that if you have the freedoms of you're an adult, you're living in a city, or you're living somewhere where like, you really can be whatever you want, um, like, just do it. Like, how self indulgent, like, don't be so tortured, and all that stuff, I do feel more for the people who are maybe living in more rural areas, or who are isolated, or poverty is a factor or lack of resources, or education and stuff like that. Like, if I'm a woman who's had three kids before the age of like, 20. And I'm living in Mississippi, and I really want to figure out who I am like, where the fuck do I begin? You know, like, those are the people I feel for. And I think it's really important. You know, I was like, I think it was Amy Schumer, who was saying, like, all of my work is about women, the all of it is a love letter to women, it's you know, and I was thinking about that, like, so much of my own work is like a love letter to people to being like, you can be who you want to be. And I'm not saying that it'll be easy. I'm not saying that. It'll come without challenge or discomfort, or you won't have to, you know, but like, I think everyone has the capability to be who they want to be. But you have to do the hard work of figuring out who that is. And then if it doesn't align with your, your family of origin, it's undoing that conditioning. And I'm not saying it's easy, or everybody gets pointed in those right directions or gets the resources. But I do think on a fundamental level, it's available to us all.

I do, I think, as you said, and obviously, as we know, some people are under, you know, fundamentally unsafe because our society has graded that world where you can't just go out in the street and be yourself. But there's places that you can be you know, and I think starting there might be an answer. I don't have them because I don't you know, I'm able to walk out and be myself relatively although, you know, they're small things like I obviously question things that I wear or whatever because I simply don't want to deal with the, the repercussions of that with men. But I also think that for the most part, it's available to all of us in some of us have more privilege than others, obviously, where we can go and Be it loudly Yeah, without feeling threatened. But I think it's hard for all of us, except if you're awake

weren't like experiencing any fallout, like, if you're someone who was like, Oh, I'm definitely trans, and you're living in some small town that like that could literally get you murdered, I get it, I get not being out, I get not delving into that piece of your identity. Exactly. But can you do a little Google and find out what resources are available to you? You know, like,

for people who are in a similar situation, are there are there is their level thing or Yeah,

you know, that, like, I was reading an interesting article about a rural doctor whose heart literally broke, like, she developed a heart problem because of how hard she worked. And in she was being shadowed by this other doctor, and like, a big thing was that this other doc that you to take over her role, she can't do it anymore. And she gives really progressive care to trans, her trans patients and very much works with them to get, you know, gender conforming, or conforming, conforming things, you know, through insurance and make sure that people get, you know, their hormones and things like that. And the doctor that was chatting was like, right on, like, I'm, I'm so glad to, you know, was like, and it was interesting, the way this was sort of woven into the story of like, you know, I do think there is a lot of unspoken stuff that goes on of aligning your identity. So if you can't fully be out and out, you, you know, are there ways you can align more fully with your identity, even if it's like opening up a savings account, that is like for your new apartment in the city that you can fully be yourself? You know, like, is it like, I don't think that's the stuff with identity that I think people get a little bit wrong, that sometimes it's like, it's not the big announcement, it's not the Instagram posting, I'm now this person, I think it is all this stuff, you know, leading up to that, that really connects you to it and makes you go, Yes, I am. This I am, I'm without a doubt this, you know, it's really being in service of that piece of yourself, I think, you know, versus just thinking it's constantly going to be this negative or battled or I see a lot of people too, who just always think aspects of their identity are negative. And it's like, or a problem, or whatever. And it's just like, I don't know, I try to approach that stuff as like, I'm not gonna ignore what comes with it or whatever. But I'm gonna try the best I can to let everything be in the room. And it's like, I saw this great graphic, though, over the weekend that I posted on our, our Instagram, though, that was about like, essentially boundaries, and like, kind of who matters and who doesn't. And I think identity is this similar, you know, link, you don't, I think we've gotten something wrong with social media, I think you have to be your full self all the time, regardless of whether or not those people can like see it, you know, in order to be it and you don't, you know, if, you know, like, if you want to stay closeted, because you have to for your safety, it doesn't make you any less gay, you know, and you can affirm that to yourself without like putting yourself in jeopardy. And I think a lot of people are like no if I'm not at 100% that I'm not it and I that I don't I think that's really damaging as well it makes it harder to really clean who you are and connect to your personal sense of self.

agree there's there's three goals that are in this article as well. I'm just going to talk about the first one because obviously, we're going to wrap up but also it's a lot. The first task is discovering and developing one's personal potentials. Personal potentials refer to those things that the person can do better than other things. How can the person discover what those potentials are? The answer is a process of trial and error. This requires exposure to a wide array of activities, some of which we become able to do relatively well. This is recognized by the feedback we receive from others and our own positive feelings about those activities. These activities simply feel right to us and these feelings are useful clues. We are intrinsically motivated to do these activities. However, the development of skills and talent requires time, effort and willingness to tolerate frustration when we encounter obstacles

in ding ding Yes,

probably assess obstacles tolerance patient. Yeah, feedback, like, feel right. All of these things. That's one goal is all Yeah, luckily for me, that's like, let's start

there. Yeah. And lucky for me, that's all shit I'm good at. And some of it is from growing up in a household. That was like really perfectionism driven and critical that I was like, Okay. And it was like, I will go in, you know, but I do. I am glad that they really listed all that out. Because I do think that that is a big part of it, and a lot of where people lose faith, and a lot of where people are like, I think it's where people just Lee I agree. And they'll leave the chat. Yeah. And I'm like, You got it. It doesn't. Easy. And natural doesn't have to. I liked what they said about like, you feel at ease, you know about it, but like,

exactly as right. You're right. Is that right? feels right. Different than is? Yes, yes. But they're talking about development effort, and frustration and obstacles. And these are the things that we forget. And we assume that identity comes easily I think in that we things will just feel like you said easy or Yeah, natural. And that's not always the case. Something feeling right. Doesn't mean it's easy. Yeah. Everything I've loved in my life, and felt right about as far as my identity goes, I would none of it came easy, right. But it if you something that I've been working with clients on just more, kind of diligently and in more intentionally is really setting goals and then chunking those goals out. So okay, if you want to be somewhere in a year, right? Your we can't really plan more than six months out, like, so. Like, if you're then thinking about to get to that six months, what would I have to do in three months? To get to those three months? What would I have to do in one month? To get to that one month? What would I have to do every single week? And if it sounds monotonous? A little bit, but how would you set yourself up every week was like, I'm going to sit down for 20 minutes, I'm going to work on something that I care about, or that feels right to me, or I'm going to honor this part of me and look around for people who are like me to or I am going to go and whatever it is, but But otherwise, the day will go by the week will go by the months will go by and it escapes you. Yeah.

I used to be very forward thinking and I've been working on that have more can how can I show for the press for myself in the present? Me too. And I was thinking about, you know, future me? Because I think I used to always, like set these goals and then be like, No, I'm off, you know, and now. You're right, like the time does. You know it without a attention care and focus, like it does just go. But I also think that like that process is well saves you from a lot of stuff that might be passing fancies, because you're like, oh, yeah, do I want to show up for this every day? Do I want to do this for the next six months? Like, no, then that's good information to you know, like, and I valid and help a total in how I've you're not decisions as well as like, yeah, no, I don't want to do that, you know, like, and it's like, Oh, I thought that was maybe part of my identity, or I thought that there was overlap with this other thing. But like, no, turns out, that's not where I go. Before we we wrap up. I do want to ask what the same question you asked me of when you walk out the door. Woody, what do you what are you thinking the most in terms of your identity? And then what do you think others? What do you think is your personal identity? What do you think is your social identity? When you go out the door?

I think about being a woman first and then I think about being a mom and then I think about being white and how that affects the people around me. And how I want it to affect the people around me. And I think I don't think I think about being straight necessarily. I don't know that I'm like, straight straight. But I think about you know, just being aware of what I what I am perceived as which is in my opinion. I mean, I don't know this for sure, but I'm like a thin white lady. I think that's how I'm seeing in a lot of rooms. I also think I have resting bitchface I don't know how that translates here. Yeah, it's I think, yeah, I think that people might think I'm not, you know, super approachable all the time. So I like had to be aware of that as well.

Do you think that people could think like the like your Karen, do you think because of the resting bitchface and being white that people could be like, Oh, wow, that well, that I mean, that's what I'm, I'm trying to understand. I'm not I'm not.

I don't think people think oh, no, I don't think people think about Karen. Just like, I like thinking of you as like the ice queen because of the Yeah, history. Yeah, I think people I think people think I'm a nice guy. Yeah, because you have better hair than any Karen ever does. You know, so I'm, I don't wear like fucking cat. Obviously, not a fucking carrot. Yeah, and we're combat bird.

No, but I didn't know if that was like a fear is more I do

not fear being seen as, either once in a while, because I live in a place. It's very, very diverse. And also, a lot of the places are, you know, a lot of the kids and young people are non binary and queer. And I sometimes I feel like a Karen in those places where I'm like, I swear, I'm not that lady. Yeah, but But I that's my own personal life that I've tried to bring into the space. I don't I don't feel like some people think I'm a Karen No. Yeah, I know. Don't work EDS.

I know what you mean, I feel more the fear of being more like the nerd being like, I swear, I'm cool.

1:01:18

I'm cool. I turned on, you know, I try not to be there. Well, I swear, you know, fear that people think, you know, it's like, if you're afraid of that, or people projecting that I'm definitely

an issue. Maybe like privilege. I think that I fear that people think I, you know, I'm asking for too I try to be overly polite is as much as I am an ice queen, because I am, in a lot of ways, and that's a protection thing. Mostly for men, not 100%. I'd say for men, like, I don't go out with a smile on my face, typically. Because I don't want to seem approachable to men. Yeah. And that's always been how I've been, because I think that if you make eye contact, or that any little thing, in my experience has has put me in uncomfortable position. So I've tried to be really kind when I'm face to face with people, but not like out there in the world like Bob. I mean, that's not really my personality anyway. Yeah, but yeah, no, I don't I'm not a fucking Karen.

No, you're not. But I was like, Oh,

is she afraid of that? No, but I'm like, I think I'm not rich. I'm not rich by any standards, but I'm maybe by some but I think people I sometimes I'm all very aware of like, my, I'm always aware of my privilege. And I don't want that to come off. Like I believe I am in, you know, some sort of place that that expects, so I tried to be incredibly aware of that.

Yeah. I tried to be very aware of no one is better than anyone else. You know, no, none of this stuff. And I guess that's something I tried to impart on people I think, like, coming from wealth and like, let me tell you a little secret. Nobody's fucking better than anyone. They're all we're all terrible in our own ways. But easy to say when you come from a position of privilege, so, but I'm like,

and then you get into those circles and you're like, wow, y'all are a mess. Yeah, like you're like,

oh, wow, that like, you literally just think you're better because of zeros in your bank account. That is so

dumb. Like I'm gonna send you this I'm

gonna send you this account. That is changed my life. I send you some of the videos. Did you get them the southern? Oh, yeah. I love ya. I love him. Oh, my God. So you so you already do? How am I figured do it? Yeah. But it's so funny. What's his name again? It's like all our lake house is not small. None of our lake houses are small. Yeah.

It's, you know, and though it's like, it's so interesting, because like, my mom's still participates, like, you know, in southern culture and goes back to Atlanta and has some friends and sometimes, like, she'll tell me about like, like, what her friends you know, like, so until was worried about like this. And like, you know, I shouldn't be saying this on here. But I'm going to anyway, y'all don't tell my mom that I told y'all. But um, she threw a party for someone recently, who probably couldn't have afforded to throw the party themselves to be honest, if you know, she threw a birthday party for somebody. And she did a hosted at our home. She catered it, this whole thing. And the woman said, I really would have preferred a dinner party to a cocktail party. I really would have prefer to sit down dinner. And I'm like, I'm sorry. You You thought I should cook in serve on these people. But you know, and I was just like, I imagine that being your attitude of like, how to always like kind of have more or, or be dissatisfied versus just like, how amazing my friend threw me a party like that. Oh, yeah, that's the stuff I feel like especially, you know, with wealth and stuff that people get so hung up. It's like, if you're if you're always gonna be on the quest for more than good Guess what, you're gonna live a very unsatisfied life because like, there's always more, there will always be someone will never be enough, they'll never be enough, you know. So that would be also be something that I would be like maybe when you know, if you're dialing into your identity, maybe think of stuff that you won't always be on a quest. It might make you better. And

you know not to be totally corny, but appreciating what you have and who you are, in the moment is very helpful, because we don't need to be constantly chasing, you know, a different thing or identity or part of ourselves, you know, it's one thing to grow and evolve and to want to learn, and be more yourself, but you have to also accept who you are right now. And there are positive things about you. And that's important. Yeah, honor, I think,

I 100% kiddoes agree. And I think to your point, if you're always looking outside yourself and think something outside yourself always is a better or sexier identity, then there might be some self acceptance, like, you might want to ask yourself, why? Because nothing is better than actually being yourself. And the world needs that. So if you constantly think things that you're not are better, that should be a clue to link in vast in yourself in a different way.

Also, nothing is as it seems, it's

for that is the truth. So yeah, be careful.

Be careful what you wish for,

you just might get it and it's not going to be what you think it's not. It's not going to be it just started to happen. They just started coming. I know there's a hedge fund flood if it was a flood, it's when Nina and I were working on Sol all the time, and she'd be like, I don't get it. Like how does this person blah, blah, blah. And I was like, Nina money? What is the secret answer? It's always money. Like if people have these crazy things that don't make sense. Often, I would say nine times out of 10 money. Money did it.

Yeah, you're not 100 men. Well, that's a whole Yeah, that's kind of just some of the day but yeah, just notice when people have like hundreds of 1000s of followers on Instagram and have like, you know, supersonic 100 likes, you know, 100 likes you're like, Yeah, you buy something

seems too good to be true. It probably is or was backed by a lot of money.

Ciao everyone. Ciao, ciao. Be for happy finding yourself. Yes.

Let's all go find ourselves.

Bye. That's all for today's episode.

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